Loading summary
Transcript98 lines
- [00:02]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
Lemonade.
- [00:08]
Podcast Host (Stephanie Whittles Wax)
Hi, listeners.
- [00:09]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
Have you heard about Talk About Able?
- [00:11]
Podcast Host (Stephanie Whittles Wax)
It has a great name, and it's a podcast hosted by child psychiatrist Dr. Susan Swick. Dr. Swick talks with parents about parenting, all the stuff that happens in raising kids, and she sits down with experts who share real strategies on everything from supporting children through grief to picky eating. In this episode, you'll hear from one of the experts, Dr. Carrie Jackson, a licensed clinical child psychologist specializing in ADHD. Together, Dr. Carrie and Dr. Swick unpack how parents can help their kids navigate impulsivity, defiance, sibling conflicts, and more. I think it's relevant to any of us who have kids in the world, and especially relevant to anyone who might be listening who has a kid who's been diagnosed with adhd. I hope you enjoy listening, and please be sure to check out the rest of Talk about able season two with Dr. Susan Swick. Just search for it wherever you're listening right now.
- [01:11]
Dr. Susan Swick
Talk About Able is produced by Lemonada Media in partnership with Montage Health and their Ohana center for Child and Family Mental Health, and it's made possible through funding from the Montage Health Foundation.
- [01:30]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
Have you ever watched Charlie Brown?
- [01:32]
Dr. Susan Swick
Oh, yeah, of course.
- [01:33]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
Yeah. Okay.
- [01:33]
Dr. Susan Swick
I'm a child of the late 60s, early 70s.
- [01:37]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
I. Well, I love Charlie Brown because, you know, the lady that is on the speaker, and she is very, very monotone, right? Yes. She is droning on and on and on. That is what, like, a typical day feels like for an ADHD kid. Like, they are in the most boring classroom ever. And, like, even when they're in your car, that is just the womp, womp, womp going on. And so they're trying to do things to try and feel more stimulated, just like any of us would do. Right. And so these things that you may be seeing, where they seem like they are just trying to be difficult, they're actually probably trying to get that stimulation.
- [02:21]
Dr. Susan Swick
I'm Dr. Susan Swick, and this is Talk About Able. Today, I'm being joined by Dr. Carrie Jackson. Dr. Jackson is a licensed clinical child psychologist and the founder of SoCal Child Psychology. She specializes in working with children and young adults with ADHD and with their families. She has also been diagnosed with ADHD herself, so she has a personal window into what these kids really need. I'm excited to learn from Carrie about how parents can recognize their child's unique strengths while also helping them to navigate the real challenges that come with adhd, like impulsivity, sibling fights, and finding the just right level of stimulation to stay engaged. This is a conversation about thoughtful, practical strategies that can click for an ADHD kid, from finding calming activities to talking less and doing more. So, Carrie, it's so nice to meet you.
- [03:31]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
Nice to meet you, too.
- [03:33]
Dr. Susan Swick
Well, I'd love to start by just learning a little bit more about you. And in particularly, were there certain experiences that you had growing up or studying or in your graduate school and training that led you to really do this focused work on children with ADHD and their parents?
- [03:54]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
Yes. Okay. So when I started working with clients, I was so impressed by how fast that we were seeing changes in these families, like, in terms of, like, disruptive behaviors, a lot of family conflict. And one of the common threads was that a lot of these kids had adhd. But my story about, like, what really continued with my specialization is much more personal. I was diagnosed as an adult with adhd, and, like, when I was a child, I can now look back and see a lot of the things that were going on and that were difficult for me and how those impacted me growing up. And so when I was diagnosed as an adult with adhd, I was like, okay, this makes so much sense. And at the same time, I think it's still something that is so under notice as far as how it may affect, like, different people, like, different differences as far as girls, people who are doing really well. It's not just something that's for boys. And so that really motivated me to continue to do this work.
- [05:03]
Dr. Susan Swick
So I'm wondering if your own diagnosis then has affected. I mean, probably it has affected, but do you think about it or even talk about it in the way you show up for the families that you work with?
- [05:17]
Podcast Host (Stephanie Whittles Wax)
Yeah.
- [05:17]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
Okay. It definitely affects how I think about adhd because, like, I. I still hear from a lot of parents, you know, there's no way my child has ADHD because they're not hyper. And that is a huge misconception. Right. You know, you don't have to be hyper to have adhd. You can just be inattentive and distracted. And it's something that I do share with families, but mindfully, because it's still about them. But I share it openly on social media, and a lot of people will find me and they will bring it up. And so, of course, I am happy to share it with them during those times, but it's absolutely changed the way in which I, like, think about some of the things that parents are seeing and the concerns that they're having.
- [06:04]
Dr. Susan Swick
Well, I'm wondering if I can. I can share a story.
- [06:07]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
Yeah.
- [06:07]
Dr. Susan Swick
About a family I talked to a wonderful dad a little while back named Nick, who is a divorced father, shared custody of his two boys and a somewhat acrimonious divorce. So he and his ex are not able to collaborate very effectively about sort of transitions and consistent routines. So things can be very different house to house. And Nick's two boys are, I think they're 11 is Ezra and the little one is eight, Chris. And true to what we're talking about, Ezra, the 11 year old has ADHD. Chris, the 8 year old, has been diagnosed with oppositional defiant disorder. I'm not observing or diagnosing these kids. In my experience, sometimes an odd diagnosis in a family with a through line of ADHD is actually ADHD under a different name. Maybe it's without the H so they haven't noticed it yet or it's got more anxiety. Kids are getting more obstinate when they get pushed past their comfor zone. And Nick also has ADHD and he is struggling with figuring out how to give them primarily a good experience when they are in his home. And he says almost like clockwork when they're coming home, the little one will say something provocative to the big one, the big one will say something provocative back and they're in a huge fight by the time they're home, there's lots of conflict. It gets physical very easily and he ends up feeling like he's having to be a cop and having to break it up instead of getting to do fun, meaningful activities. So I'm wondering where would you start with a family coming in like this?
- [07:57]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
Yeah, well, you know, there are so many things that you've shared with that family, which it's what I see every single day. And the sibling and family conflict, you don't see it in the diagnostic criteria for adhd, but it is often there. Like it is so challenging a lot of the times like with these kids to have these positive family relationships. And normally I start with a lot of understanding and education with parents because the more that you understand your child, the more that you're going to be able to support them. And a lot of these challenges that you just mentioned, I think that they are absolutely related to some of the challenges with ADHD within the family that you've shared, like the, the sibling conflict one, for example. Normally what I see is that one sibling might start pushing the buttons of the other and that can feel very frustrating from parents because you're like, why can't they just like be calm and have like an easy day? But for kids with adhd, they are seeking out that stimulation. And so they will be doing these things that they may just seem like really frustrating or annoying, but they're trying to get their brain up to like an optim level of stimulation. Have you ever watched Charlie Brown?
- [09:24]
Dr. Susan Swick
Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah.
- [09:25]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
Okay.
- [09:25]
Dr. Susan Swick
I'm a child of the late 60s, early 70s.
- [09:29]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
I. Well, I love Charlie Brown because, you know the lady that is on the speaker and she is very, very monotone.
- [09:36]
Dr. Susan Swick
Right, right.
- [09:38]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
Yes. She is droning on and on and on. That is what like a typical day feels like for an ADHD kid. Like they are in the most boring classroom ever. And like even when they're in your car, that is just a womp, womp, womp going on. And so they're trying to do things to try and feel more stimulated, just like any of us would do. Right. And so these things that you may be seeing where they seem like they are just trying to be difficult, they're actually probably trying to get that stimulation.
- [10:08]
Dr. Susan Swick
Oh my gosh.
- [10:09]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
Yeah.
- [10:09]
Dr. Susan Swick
That's such a smart observation. So do you think making concrete recommendations? Because one thing I heard from Nick was that he's working triple time, trying to offer sort of language based interventions, talking to his boys, often because they're in the car, but talking to them about sort of what to do, trying to stay calm, negotiating with them a little bit, talking about their different diagnoses. But it sounds like maybe sort of these, these talking interventions are doomed to fail. Not because he's a bad dad, but because it's very hard for kids to pay attention. Many kids, especially in that age range, just to auditory input. The visual is often more powerful or visual plus physical. So if they're doing something and they have some visual touch points, it's often a little more immediately organizing. And I love the idea that they often counterintuitively rather than needing to calm down, to stop fighting, we need to kind of meet their need for stimulation, but in a different way to help them get out of that lane.
- [11:20]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
Yes, yeah. Getting out of that lane and getting out of the like monotone, womp, womp, womp. Because that is what it sounds like. And so I always tell parents, like the goal is to talk less and do more. Be more effective with the words that you are saying. Because whenever I am in a session with families, like I will see a parent say something to a child and the child may be distracted. They may be off doing their own thing in their own world. So then the parent will add in more words, they'll repeat themselves. Did you Hear me, like, should I say it again? And then that is just more and more, like frustrating for everybody involved. And then it really leads to this pattern where your child doesn't listen until you raise your voice. Right? Because that makes it where they feel like, oh, something is going to happen, like, I might get in trouble. So what you want to do is from the start, you actually want to say internally as you want to think about how can I make this the words I'm saying more likely that my child will listen. I need to get close to them. I need to not be in the other room. I need to maybe like put my hand on their shoulder and use five words, not 20, to describe what I need from them.
- [12:33]
Dr. Susan Swick
When we come back, we're going to get into something. Dr. Jackson often sees in her practice. Many parents of children with ADHD have ADHD themselves. So what does it look like to help these parents build strategies that are practical, that can actually work for them and for their children? I'm thinking about the fact that as we've been sort of alluding to, that ADHD is highly heritable. So whether or not parents have been diagnosed themselves, there's substantial likelihood that one or both parents even may have a diagnosis or may have adhd. So they may be a little more impulsive, they may be responding before they have a chance to sort of think and plan. It's a little more challenging for them. Do you have certain go to recommendations of a standard strategy to help parents stay calm and direct and maybe to have an activity that is organizing and maybe sidesteps conflict? I don't know. I'm wondering, I bet you have a playlist of some strategies that work well.
- [13:57]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
Yeah, I mean, I work really often with parents who have adhd. So you're right. I don't want to give them strategies that are going to fail and that are too elaborate. So normally what I do is I start off by asking them like, what are two things that you want to encourage your child to do more of and what are your non negotiables that you're like, okay, this is never okay in my family. Which often that is something like physical aggression. Because normally what I find is the most effective for working with parents of ADHD kids is that we need to have very few things that they are working on at one time. And if I'm going to give them an elaborate reward system, it may fail because. Because they don't have the ability to follow through with it from a starting point. I say, like, okay, what are the Three most important things that is hard for a lot of parents to come up with actually. Like what is the most important? And then based on that, that's where we'll go into the strategies where it may be. Okay, we're going to talk about how to give instructions in a more effective way, how to praise your child in an effective way, which is very important. It may be reward system, it may be how to utilize consequences in an effective way. But based on the challenges the parents bring up, there's a different skill set that I recommend based on that. I'm happy to go through any of those in detail too.
- [15:19]
Dr. Susan Swick
Oh my gosh. I love that. If, if there's two kids who are fighting, do you encourage parents to pick two things that they would like both kids to get better at instead of it having to be two different sort of behavioral programs to make it simpler?
- [15:36]
Podcast Host (Stephanie Whittles Wax)
Yeah.
- [15:37]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
Well, so in the car example, like, that is a really good one. So for kids that are fighting in the car, first, like, I would look at like, what are the reasons for the fights? Is there common, I don't know, thread, is it that one person always wants to choose the music or something else? I would probably think about, like what is an activity that we didn't have prepared for them to do in the car where they're not going to be yelling at each other with this exact situation? I have had some families do really well with maybe their kids really like audiobooks where they have an audiobook playing right when they get into the car. And then when they get home there is already the identified like calming activity. So it may be that they're going to have separate lego time for 30 minutes. I would try and see about can we prevent it in the first place by giving them a well defined activity that we, we know is going to keep them busy and they're less likely to engage in that, that type of behavior.
- [16:36]
Dr. Susan Swick
Yes. Okay, so now I have a really concrete question for you. Do you think that for kids around that age, that sort of school age, child 6 to 12 or so with ADHD, that after school time where they're vulnerable to maybe tantrums or escalating or fighting with a sibling, it sounds like routines and rituals are really critical. Should they be calming or should they be kind of stimulating and energizing the way you were alluding to before?
- [17:09]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
I love like an active activity, honestly.
- [17:13]
Dr. Susan Swick
Okay.
- [17:14]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
I will say that it does definitely depend individually on kids. Some kids like to just like relax and chill. But I, there's only one thing that I would Say, I have, like a very hard recommendation against, and that is screen time right after school, usually, because it is very hard for kids to get off of it. And I actually don't think it is particularly calming, even though a lot of kids will say they just need some downtime afterwards. You know, like, if you think about. If you are scrolling, like, it's easy to do.
- [17:45]
Dr. Susan Swick
Yes.
- [17:46]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
But does it actually make you feel better?
- [17:48]
Dr. Susan Swick
Yeah.
- [17:49]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
No, usually not. Like, it's easy to do. So I recommend having, like a very easy activity where they could just even go outside or something. Like very, very, like, very active, but it doesn't involve any screens. So that's my recommendation.
- [18:03]
Dr. Susan Swick
Yes. I love that we came up with feeding the chickens because the. There's lots to do. The chickens are actually. They give a lot of attention, but it's physical. I loved that solution.
- [18:16]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
I love that too, because it's also taking care of something and that is like a type of leadership activity, which is really great for kids.
- [18:25]
Podcast Host (Stephanie Whittles Wax)
Yeah.
- [18:25]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
I mean, I've had some kids do something artistic afterwards, like, especially in the twin years, which can be very nice. But it's usually helpful if it is something with a clear stopping point and not something that they're going to get frustrated by starting and stopping.
- [18:40]
Dr. Susan Swick
Yeah. I also love. I love your point about it being a kind of leadership activity or caretaking activity, because it isn't just we're doing this to keep you from fighting with your brother. It's actually like a responsibility. So there's a real positive character building sense and frame around it, rather than it being containment or a consequence.
- [19:03]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
Yes. Yeah. And I mean, every kid has their strengths and their interests, so it might be something different. Like, I know I have worked with kids where they love helping out in the garden, whether it's picking berries or like planting watering flowers. But caring for pets is a very common one that I hear, and so I really do love those. But the walking outside one, I think that one's great too, because especially after kids have been, you know, sitting down at school all day, it's so nice to be able to be outside.
- [19:32]
Dr. Susan Swick
Oh, yeah. So do you have a way of thinking about why ritual and routine is so important for kids and maybe for parents, too, when there's ADHD in the family.
- [19:41]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
Family, yeah. So if you think about how with adhd, things feel very chaotic a lot of times, and when you have a structure for kids with adhd, it can really help them know what to expect. And one of the things that's very challenging for people with ADHD is remembering what comes next. And I hear this from parents all the time, like, about routine charts where they're like, but they know what to do, they know what is in their morning, they know what is in their bedtime routine. Right. I'm sure you have heard that too.
- [20:13]
Dr. Susan Swick
Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yep.
- [20:15]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
They may know it, but at the same time, having it in a structure, even a visual structure, helps reduce how much we're relying on our memory to actually do those steps. So that is a hugely helpful piece related to the structure of it.
- [20:32]
Dr. Susan Swick
That's such a helpful reminder. Cause that can help. I mean, it strikes me that it helps the child, but also the parent. So the parent doesn't have to be continuously prompting, reminding all that sort of negative feedback or the. They themselves have to remember and have that frame in their mind all the time. And everything gets harder as the emotions climb. Right. So as a child gets frustrated or feels ashamed, or as a parent gets frustrated and feels ashamed that they're not doing this better, that they can't prevent yet another fight. Do you have standard phrases or almost like a mantra for parents to help remember that? Especially parents with adhd, to help keep them sort of leaning in, confident and not sort of going into a spiral of shame?
- [21:24]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
So sometimes actually the best thing for parents to do is nothing at all. And that is a really hard thing for parents to do because it feels like you're not addressing the challenge. And so when it comes to not getting pulled in, what I like parents to tell themselves is that, like, by doing nothing, that is the best thing I can be doing. Right. So just reminding themselves that what you're doing is actually the best thing. And when you have that in your mind, you're less likely to say things that will come out too.
- [21:54]
Dr. Susan Swick
Are there other strategies? Do you invite parents beyond those reminders? Do you invite them to have their own routine? Do you have any other sort of go to strategies for parents?
- [22:06]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
Yeah, well, the routine one, there are a couple that I thought about, but with the routine one, one thing that I have done with a lot of families is you can actually create a playlist if you want, on your phone with different music streaming places. And there are a lot of songs related to doing things like brushing your teeth or getting ready for bed. So I have recommended that parents will start a playlist like that for their kids, but it's also for them to help them remind themselves. Like, oh, okay, the Brushing the Teeth song just, like, came on. Let me go check that they are actually in there brushing their Teeth. Right. So that one's like a thing for their kids, but it's also for them.
- [22:49]
Dr. Susan Swick
Yeah.
- [22:50]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
My brother set up something that I think is super cool. He's way more tech savvy than I am, but he has like, these lights in his house, and they are set up on a smart schedule so that at a set time they turn a certain color, which tells the kids that it is time to start their bedtime routine. And so that is a great visual signal.
- [23:15]
Dr. Susan Swick
That's incredible.
- [23:16]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
Yeah, yeah, it's a great visual signal for kids and for the adults because you're not often going to remember these things that you need to do. But I find that when the parent and child routines are tied together, they're visual. It's easier for them both to actually follow through.
- [23:32]
Dr. Susan Swick
We'll be right back after one more quick break. Stay with us. I love that you were mentioning that kids have different interests, but also they may have different strengths. And certainly kids and parents, often with adhd, there's challenges with distractions and sustaining focus on things that are less interesting. But there's often some real gifts that go with being wired that way. Have you noticed that, too? Do you talk with parents and kids about some of those strengths that seem to maybe co occur with this slightly different wiring?
- [24:26]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
Yeah, yeah. It's something that, I mean, I bring up all of the time about how, like, the creativity I think is one that I often will think about and see like a ton with kids. Right. And, you know, so it's something that is in a lot of books about ADHD for kids, which I think is great because then kids are reading about it too. But noticing their child's strengths is something that is so important for kids with adhd. And like, yes, like, ADHD is a challenge. And at the same time, there may be some pieces about ADHD that is the reason why they are great at so many things. And kids with ADHD receive so much negative feedback that we really want to help them notice their strengths. Like, they're receiving constant negative feedback about, stop, don't do this. You need to stop doing this. Why are you doing this? Yes. So every single time that, like, a kid is getting negative feedback, we want to counter it with, like, at least five positives. Honestly, that's like a good reminder, like, for every correction that kids are receiving, you know, you want to just make sure that you are still giving them, like, at least five positives for that one correction.
- [25:39]
Dr. Susan Swick
Oh, that's. That is. That's a big ratio. It's five to One, it's. So I would imagine it's also maybe helpful for parents in quieter times when they're not kind of on stage with their kids, to be building a nice, long playlist of those positives so that they're right at the ready. They're right in their pocket in a moment. Because sometimes correction moments are charged moments. You know, parents may be feeling frustrated. So having them ready.
- [26:09]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
Yeah. And the way to have it ready, I think, is to first, like, reframe your idea of what needs to be acknowledged. We often think about giving praise and acknowledgement for the things that are above and beyond, but really that's not how I recommend parents use praise. Like, the best bosses that you have had, they were probably acknowledging the things that you did well, and it was maybe things that were a part of your job description. But at the same time, like, it feels good when they're acknowledging those versus a boss that is just, like, not really acknowledging or noticing those things. Right. And so that helps parents, like, really look at, like, what praise can be utilized for and how to use it. Because there's always an opportunity for a praise. Like, there's always an opportunity. It's just about finding it and catching it in your kids and being more aware of it.
- [27:04]
Dr. Susan Swick
We'll stay with this for a minute because I have lots of questions. My kids are all a little too old. Except it's never too late, right?
- [27:11]
Podcast Host (Stephanie Whittles Wax)
Yeah.
- [27:12]
Dr. Susan Swick
When you talk then about maybe catching your child being good, do you have specific ideas about how parents might say it? We don't want too many. You don't want to say, I love your dance moves. I love your wry sense of humor. You're a very good friend. It shouldn't just feel like a rote list. It needs to be material and specific. But is the idea that you just want to get to five before you give another correction?
- [27:40]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
Yeah. The idea is you want to balance it out. And so what, like, even thinking about, like, what are the things I want to see my child do more of. Right. And be specific with it, because saying good job and thank you is great, but you want to tell them what they're doing well. And I recommend keeping it as immediate as possible. So when one of your kids helps their younger sibling. Thank you so much for helping. That's short.
- [28:05]
Dr. Susan Swick
Yes.
- [28:06]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
And to the point. And it's immediate. Or if, like your child, they are ready on time. Oh, great job being ready on time. So it can be that simple. And like, keeping it very specific to maybe some of the things that you notice your child is really good at or the things that you want to see them do more of, too, and that are really good skills to build as long as it is genuine, you know, and it's not kind of like just like a list that you could give any child. Kids feel good about that. Right. It's not like it doesn't feel fake. It feels genuine and like, you mean it.
- [28:39]
Dr. Susan Swick
Are there some concrete strategies to really emphasize effort and progress over perfection? I love it. It is such a priority, but it's hard to do. And with, you know, with neurodivergent kids, it's so easy for them to get discouraged and to even feel shame if they're still getting, you know, corrections, negative feedback, or, you know, a couple times a day. They just, you know, things are just much tougher that seem to be easy for their best friend in class or in soccer or their sibling at home. How do you help them celebrate progress and not sweat being imperfect?
- [29:21]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
Yeah. So progress is something that should be celebrated every day. And I really recommend that for, like, okay, for grades. This is one of the most common ones I hear from parents. They will do something where it's like, okay at the end of a semester or after a test, if you get an A, then you get money or something. Right. To give them that reward for the outcome. Right.
- [29:47]
Dr. Susan Swick
Yes.
- [29:48]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
So I recommend instead of focusing on outcome, what are the small steps up until that point? Right. Studying for the test, maybe doing your homework. So anytime there is, like, an outcome, really bring it back to what is the small step that my child is doing today? And let's move away from giving rewards for those outcomes, because the truth is, there is a lot of that is not tied into what your child is doing that may affect it. So, for example, with the test, maybe the test was just particularly hard. Right. And that's not something your child has control over. So instead, think about noticing, acknowledging, rewarding what your child does have control over, which is things like studying, spending time doing that.
- [30:31]
Dr. Susan Swick
Yeah.
- [30:31]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
And that's going to definitely help with acknowledging the progress over the perfection.
- [30:36]
Dr. Susan Swick
Yep. Yep. And I love breaking it down into parts where you can applaud effort even if it wasn't a successful outcome.
- [30:44]
Podcast Host (Stephanie Whittles Wax)
Yeah.
- [30:44]
Dr. Susan Swick
That they were putting effort into something is incredible to reward, and it's incredible to be paying attention.
- [30:51]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
And then they get way more opportunities to succeed. Because, you know, if your child is just waiting until this one outcome, and if it doesn't go how they were hoping or how you were hoping, it's gonna feel a lot more disappointing to them unless like they have the other opportunity of doing multiple. So that's why it's really important to have these steps.
- [31:11]
Dr. Susan Swick
Do you have any other examples that come to mind? I'm sort of imagining, look back to Nick if he has the two boys in the car and they've listened to the book on tape, but it got boring or it ended and there's a little provocation and it's not yet a full fight. Is there a way without it becoming. No, no, no, no, no. That might escalate. Is there a small step intervention that he could make?
- [31:41]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
I think that we could certainly think about that example because, okay, there's the car ride. There are multiple steps within that, right? So they get into the car, they could easily just like, I don't know, poke the other one, do something to instigate at that point. So getting into the car is a step. And then certainly like being in the car for a set amount of time is a step. And you don't want to wait until the very end when you're home to start by acknowledging what they're doing or praising them. Instead you want to start with, okay, maybe they like made it into the car and they were very kind to each other when they're in the car, right? So you can say thanks for dating in the car. And maybe, yes, maybe there is still some frustration where they might be doing something like poking a little bit, but they're not name calling. I would still acknowledge that and say like, thanks for being calm on this ride home. Homework is actually another really good one I see. Like, yes, if you think about completing homework, there's all the steps leading up to it, like coming to the table, getting their backpack, getting their materials out. And so those are some things that I would say acknowledge those small steps too. Those are really good ones that will help you focus on all of the substance of just the outcome.
- [32:55]
Dr. Susan Swick
Do you have specific thoughts about how parents can lean in to nurture the strengths that their children show? I often think about the fact that it feels like parents have two full time jobs when they're trying to bring all this sort of thoughtfulness and structure to interactions with their ADHD child, especially if they have ADHD too. But is it about protecting time for creative activities or is there another strategy that you've found that that helps parents lean into that.
- [33:26]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
Well, you want to think about what are your child's strengths and they don't have to be a set extracurricular activity. So I, I think first, identifying what are your child's Strengths. Maybe it is helping other people and maybe it's doing something like a sport or it could be like a character strength. Right. Something that is like more personality based. And then think about how are they showing it right now. So for like example, like helping the animals, that's something I've worked with a lot of K with and they love taking care of animals. They love to like just help with them. And so I've talked with parents about what are some activities, right, that we could incorporate into your child's life that tap into those strengths that they would enjoy. Is it maybe volunteering at an animal shelter? Something like that? But you want to think about like how can I make this fit into my, my, my life and my child's life? And I do agree you want to protect that time because that will build their self esteem and kids and adults have a lot of things they're doing throughout the week. But you want to be really, really cognizant and really aware of the strengths your child has, knowing that they might not fall into like the outlined like academics and sports, but you want to protect the time to actually lean into that too.
- [34:48]
Dr. Susan Swick
I love that you specified character strengths and not just talents like creativity or a musical talent or math skill, but that leaning into creating space for and applauding your child's putting energy into cultivating these qualities that expand their sense of value, of dignity, of leadership. And that seems so important and easy to lose sight of when you're very focused on I gotta keep my kids from punching each other. We have to get their teeth brushed, we have to get homework done. It can feel like there's a lot of boxes to check and transactions that have to be completed. And I love that sort of reminder. It's good for parents of all kids, not, not just neurodivergent kids that busy kids need to have protected time to cultivate an expanded sense of their value,
- [35:51]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
their identity and their self esteem. Because you know, school can be very hard for a lot of ADHD kids. And if that is all that their self esteem is built on, it's not as easy to have positive self esteem. Right. So we want their self esteem to come from multiple buckets and having those strength areas can help with that.
- [36:11]
Dr. Susan Swick
That. That's right. Do you have things that you say to parents that help expand their thinking when they're feeling discouraged and exhausted to help them feel hopeful, to feel like they've got what it takes as well as their kids?
- [36:27]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
Yeah, I think it's important to validate that parenting an ADHD child is more challenging at times. It's really, really tough. And it can take a lot of emotional energy. Time energy and connecting with others who get it is really important. So whether that is finding somebody through like your family, whether it's finding somebody through your community, finding somebody online, there are plenty of parent support groups, people that you that are in a similar situation and they can get it because it is really tough. But the more that you connect with those people, you'll feel better.
- [37:04]
Dr. Susan Swick
Right? Right. It's progress, not perfection for parents too. And it helps to have colleagues that see that and can remind you of that or recognize what you're doing well.
- [37:15]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
Yep, exactly.
- [37:16]
Dr. Susan Swick
Well, Carrie, I gotta say, this has been so educational for me. I'm wishing I could go back in time and do some different things with my own children. And I love the thoughtfulness and the practicality of the strategies that you bring to this work. The hopefulness is just evident and it's contagious and acknowledging that it's hard work and it's doable. And it's about a sort of day to day progress. Sort of like we go to the gym every day and you may not see a big change after one day at the gym, but if you keep it up, even though you miss some and some days are shorter than others, at the end of a year, two years, you may notice you're in much better shape and that finding a way to stay that course and have those routines help parents and then and their kids build those muscles. So that's fantastic. I'm so happy to have had the chance to chat with you, to hear about your incredible work and feel like I got to benefit from some of your wisdom and experience.
- [38:20]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
Of course.
- [38:20]
Podcast Host (Stephanie Whittles Wax)
Yeah.
- [38:20]
Dr. Susan Swick
Thanks again.
- [38:21]
Dr. Carrie Jackson
Thank you so much for having me.
- [38:25]
Dr. Susan Swick
If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now is the perfect time. You can listen to Talk about Able completely ad free. Free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive content, like even more helpful advice and tips on the challenges parents are facing. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or go to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app. You can also listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Talk about Able is produced by Lemonada Media in partnership with Montage Health and their Ohana center for Child and Family Mental Health. And it's made possible through funding from the Montage Health Foundation. Together we're committed to helping families talk about the issues that children, teens and young adults are facing today. We believe that when these conversations happen at home, even about the most challenging subjects. Children build the skills they need to flourish because when families are connected, the hard moments become more bearable, the good moments become even better, and it all becomes talk about able. The show is produced by Hannah Boomershine and James Barber. Our senior producer is Muna Daenish, mixing and sound design by James Farber. Kristin Lepore is our VP of Content development and Jackie Danziger is Head of content. Maggie Croucher is our senior Director of Partnerships. Executive producers include myself, Stephanie Whittles Wax and Jessica Cordova. Kramer. Special thanks to Kelsey Talley and Maya Smith. You can help others find our show by leaving us a rating and writing a review. Thanks so much for listening and we'll see you next week.