Ginny (4:08)

It's a fantastic book.

Linda Flanagan (4:10)

Thank you.

Ginny (4:11)

And that's a piece that we probably talked about before. But I'm like, how is this book so good? But you are already a writer. You're already a writer, so it just. It's a fantastic read. One of the topics that comes up, and you've talked about it in other interviews as well, is just this concept of status. You're saying, what is. What is the point? What are the kids supposed to get? And you're saying they're supposed to get these lifelong habits and they're supposed to get. I mean, I think they're supposed to get a lot. They're supposed to get friendships and they're supposed to have fun, and they're supposed to possibly get outside, and they're supposed to be off their screens and it's supposed to provide all of these things.

Linda Flanagan (4:44)

Exactly.

Ginny (4:45)

But one of the things that's changed is that somehow or another, somewhere along the line, all of a Sudden it's become this status symbol.

Linda Flanagan (4:54)

Yes.

Ginny (4:55)

For the adult.

Linda Flanagan (4:56)

Yes.

Ginny (4:56)

The parent or the coach. Why wasn't that a thing before and it's a thing now?

Linda Flanagan (5:01)

Well, I think it has always been a thing. I mean it's always been a thing for parents to feel proud of their kids achievements and you know, there's no harm. And I, we should all feel proud of when our kids do. Well, I think what, what has changed is. Well for one it's the ubiquity of sports, of kids sports. I mean they're all over the place and they're more serious than ever. So there's not the grassroots sports, you know, local, low key, recreational, that's kind of gone away or it's really diminished so that it's become much more intense, expensive, focused on skill development and adult centered. It's not about the kids kind of, you know, figuring it out at the park. It's adults telling kids what to do, when to be there, parents driving, you know, providing Gatorade. The more parents have gotten involved in it, more adults have gotten involved in it, more sports become about adult needs and concerns than kids needs and concerns. And the status is a complicated issue because I think for most all parents, I really like to give us all the benefit of the doubt that we're trying to do the best we can. None of us knows how we're doing, we're making up as we go along and we look to our neighbors and friends and we, everybody else is doing this stuff. So I guess, you know, the soccer team for my 3 year old is what you do these days, you know. So I don't want to blame parents for that because it is this system of early specialization and early seriousness. And I think parents start out, they want for the same for the reasons I just mentioned. They want their kids to God forbid, you know, be, be away from their phones if they have them when they're that young. But be outside, be away from screens, be with their peers, you know, be running around like all these are good things. But what happens is because youth sports have become so professionalized and it's so adult driven and profitable for many people there's this pressure to like ramp it up, to do more. And parents are fed illusions about their children's prospects. So if your child is seven or eight, you know, they really need to be on this higher level team or they really need to be doing strength and conditioning training and here it's going to cost you this much. But just more and more expectation that parents are going to invest and that their kids are going to become stars. And some will, but most are not going to be stars. Most are not going to play in college, which is fine. But it becomes, you know, your ego as a parent gets tied to how your child performs. And you know, it can start out for all the right reasons, but then when they start doing well and you know, their adults start noticing and saying, have you thought about joining this team? It becomes sort of like a, a status symbol for the parents. And then the more the kids activities become tied to the parents, the worse it is because then it's no longer the child's activity. They're not running or swimming or playing baseball for their own sake, but because their parent wants them to or their parent gets something from it. And that's not healthy for K or parents for that matter. We're all, we'd all be much better off if we parents had our own lives and interests and pursuits and friendships and you know, meals with our family and with our friends that were less tied up with this rat race pursuit of achievement with our children.

Ginny (8:29)

It's so interesting when you pick up a book like this, Take Back the Game, you're not really expecting for there to be these sort of philosophical situations, you know, where you're like, what is the drive for status? What is the human need there? And you say the desire of esteem of others is as real a want of nature as hunger, the desire of esteem. And you talk about how, you know, this human longing for status is there and this sports system, the way that things are going, really feeds off of that. It really captures, I think it captures the parent because, well, when you're dumping all your money into it, then you want to show up too. I mean, there's that part right in the past when it didn't cost anything or you paid $20 to join your schools, whatever team. Well, there's not that big investment. And what's interesting that you said, and you know, I think this is maybe one of the linchpins here. As you said, most are not going to play in college. And it's fine. It is, but is it fine?

Linda Flanagan (9:31)

Well, that's just reality. You know, it's funny, I doing a lot of research since the book came out and I always stumble on new bits of information. And one was a podcast with the Freakonomics people and it was in conjunction with the Summer Olympics and they, the subject was something like, why is your child not an Olympian? And this little factoid came out of it. They had done research and you want to know what the single biggest predictive factor of whether or not your child will play sports in college. Do you have any idea?

Ginny (10:02)

I have none.

Linda Flanagan (10:03)

It's whether or not a parent did. So if a child's parent played in college or both parents playing in college, the kids chances, that's the biggest predictor because sports, sports ability is heritable. It's highly heritable, which of course makes sense. And it doesn't mean that you can't go play in college just if your parents didn't, but that, that is the single biggest factor. So. So it's mostly kind of what you're born with and then what you make of it and not like whether you started at 4 and got private lessons at 6. And all of that is kind of irrelevant. Nothing matters until puberty anyway. You know another quote I like to throw out there by Steve Magnus, who is a coach to Olympic runners, he said there's no such thing as an 11 year old sports star because puberty is when things get real. But because we're caught up, we're sold activities and trainings and skills and everyone else is doing it and oh my God, my kid's gonna fall behind if I don't. There's this feeling that you have to do it and it's a char, it's a mirage, but it's nonetheless we're kind of compelled to out of fears of falling behind and also because like, look, we none of us know what we're doing as parents. You're making it up as you go along. As I said before, I'm firm believer in that. And if everyone else is doing it, well, what do I know? You know, maybe they do need to do the, do soccer at 4 these days. And in fact they don't.

Ginny (11:33)

It's like you're making decisions based off of an unclear future that you can't ever understand until you have retrospect.

Linda Flanagan (11:38)

Yes.

Ginny (11:39)

And look in hindsight.

Linda Flanagan (11:40)

Yes.

Ginny (11:40)

So convince us that it's fine if they don't play college sports.

Linda Flanagan (11:44)

Yeah, well, okay, so let's do a little reminder of who plays the numbers on college boards. Okay, so 6 to 7% of high school athletes go on to play in college. Okay, that's not of the high school population, that's of high school athletes. So it's really a handful and it even a tiny, tiny number get any money. So it's not like it's this fantastic investment. You know, if you think that If I spend $20,000 a year on soccer and year round training, that's going to pay off. It's not going to just pay for your college tuition. Yes.

Ginny (12:20)

That's a silly thing. Right. It's like you're investing these thousands of dollars over many, many, many years. Like, well, you could just pay for the college tuition then.

Linda Flanagan (12:29)

Yes. Right. Or invest it. Or how about getting a tutor? You know, if you really want to give your child an edge, academic tutor, because that's going to give them advantages as well. But, you know, it's not rational, which is where I think the whole issue of status comes in, because it means so much to us parents. How our kids do it really matters to us, separate and apart from whether it leads to anything down the road. It's like it just feels so important and good and gratifying to us as parents to see our kids, like, hit the winning shot or, you know, score the winning goal. It's just so. Feels so good and I think we kind of pursue that. And again, this is why the more adults are involved in it, the less beneficial it is to kids because it really ought to be their thing for them, not for our, you know, fragile egos.

Ginny (13:20)

And obviously there's so many people who have not played in college and are fine and who have not even gone to college and are fine.

Linda Flanagan (13:27)

Yes.

Ginny (13:28)

So there's all of these different paths to a good life. But I think, you see, you know, we're in Michigan, so the University of Michigan, I guess it was maybe last year they won the championship and there was some quarterback, and you're thinking, like, well, wouldn't it be cool to be that kid or to be that kid's parent or. But it's, it's so minuscule in terms of how many freshmen are at the University of Michigan or how many students are there. It's so minuscule. And also people go on to live wonderful lives. And actually that's part of the whole book, which is purposefully living a good life in part to show your kids that adulthood is a great destination. I learned from your book a lot about sort of just the game of college to begin with. And I talked to this mom the other day named Pam Lobby, whose kids are. I think one graduated, she has two sons and one's in college right now. And she was saying, even if it's not the Ivy League, prestigious. She said, even if it's your sort of regular run of the mill state college, she said that it was, it was so hard. She said it was so confusing. It was so confusing to navigate the college process. So you, you go through that that's kind of like a game. There's parts of that, and you really explain it well in your book. Can you talk to parents about what to sort of expect when they're heading toward those years?

Linda Flanagan (14:47)

Well, you know, it's been several years since my own kids applied to college. But I can say with regard to sports, one reason why parents, you know, can be very blunt about why they're pursuing, you know, the A team and the best elite field hockey program or volleyball, it's because it gives their children an edge in the college process, which it does. There's no, you know, ambiguity about that. And kids are generally held to a lower academic standard. They have a streamlined admissions process. They're admitted earlier, usually by through early decision. So they're done with all the painful waiting and deliberating that happens for most high school seniors. And at the top level in sports, they're eligible for scholarship money, athletic scholarship money. Not that many of them are going to get it, but it is this tangled. It's a tangled system. It's very confusing. It seems more important than ever before, partly because it's so. As we know, it's so expensive, state tuition is rising because it's harder and harder to get in. So it makes getting into the top school even more prestigious. So it's even more desirable because it's harder. And also, colleges aren't clear about what they're looking for. So parents and kids are kind of going into it with blinders on, and it generates a lot of angst, and I sympathize with that. And colleges have made these changes in recent years with the Accepting the Common app. You know, many more colleges accept the common app now, certainly than when my kids were applying.

Ginny (16:24)

I don't even know what that is, the common application.

Linda Flanagan (16:27)

So college, you know, like, if you apply to. I went to school Lehigh or Boston College or Boulder, they have an application you have to fill out. When I was applying to college, a few of them had used a common application, which is okay. So I could do. It's one app, same question, same everything. And I could send it to multiple schools. So it made the whole process that much easier. It's like, okay, I don't have to fill out the particular questions about this particular colleges. It was common to all of them. So BC or Lehigh or Boulder would look at it. They'd look at the same application. That was much less common when I was applying and when my kids were applying. But now so many schools accept the common app, it makes it so much easier to Apply. If you're willing to pay the application fee, you can apply to 25 schools. But as a result, that driving up the number of applications, then colleges want that because then it changes. It makes them look more competitive when they can reject more of these kids. It's a little bit of a game in that it looks like, oh, it's so much harder to get in. And it is harder to get into some schools and they are more selective. But that's in part because they're getting so many more applications, because common application is one reason they're soliciting students. There's direct marketing that colleges send to kids to encourage them to apply. So it's very confusing and anxiety inducing, in part because it looks like it's impossible to get in.

Ginny (18:00)

Yeah, that's a big thing that I learned from your book. And I think it's really important that people read that and understand that there's a little bit of a gain here. There's a ranking system, and the more competitive, the less percentage of people that get in, the higher the ranking is. Well, then it's like, well, if you have everybody apply, if you have more people apply, then you're more selective and up you go, the rankings.

Linda Flanagan (18:21)

Yes.

Ginny (18:21)

And so you were talking about, I mean, people are getting just a flood of marketing materials from colleges and then they're going to say, well, only 2% get in. But that's kind of. It's an inflated number. That's a smaller number, but yes, exactly. Yeah.

Linda Flanagan (18:35)

Well, when my, my son was in high school, he was either a junior or senior. He got this flyer from Dartmouth. He looked at it, he's like, I can't get into Dartmouth. Like, I know you can't get into Dartmouth. Your grades aren't good enough. And it was really made me angry, you know, like, why is Dartmouth sending us a flyer, say, oh, please apply. Like, we all know you're going to reject him, so don't tempt, don't taunt us with this. And he did not apply, needless to say. But that's just a drop in the bucket. There's so much of this stuff.

Ginny (19:08)

Yeah. So it's interesting what you learn in this book because it gives you the big picture of these teenage years and heading into college. You know, it's about sport, use sports, but it's also just about parenting. And how are we navigating this? Because you had said the average student's name is sold about 18 times over the course of his or her four years of high school. They're just trying to increase the number of students who apply.

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Ginny (23:51)

You wrote 50% expect scholarships, only 2% get them. And of those 2%, no more than 15% of those are full rides.

Linda Flanagan (24:03)

Yes.

Ginny (24:04)

So that's always kind of been a silly thing to me. Too. Okay. You get a scholarship and college has just gotten incredibly expensive. I have this woman on name, Hannah Maruyama. She's got a podcast called Degree Free which is about get the degree if you need it, but if you don't need it, it's a lot of money. Kids tend to be in college for five and a half years instead of four. And so the cost with debt, a lot of debt. Right. So we're talking about we want to be fine. Right. It's like we want to be fine. Looking back, we want to have this abundant life and you've got all that debt and it can be really tricky for starting your adult life. So there's this. I lost my train of thought. I don't know, I never lose my train of thought. Hold on, let me see where I was at. Oh, okay. So yeah, so I've always sort of been. It's always sort of seemed funny to me where people are like, well, I'm going to go to this college, it costs $30,000 a year and I get a scholarship of 8,000. But you're like, but you're still paying 22,000 a year or, or something.

Linda Flanagan (25:01)

Yes.

Ginny (25:02)

It just seems odd. Like you're getting some money. Sure. But you're, you're still paying money, like a lot of it.

Linda Flanagan (25:09)

Yes.

Ginny (25:10)

So yeah, those are really good statistics to know about that. 50%, half. Half of applicants are expecting to get some sort of a scholarship. 2% gets it and 15%, no more than 15% of the 2%.

Linda Flanagan (25:25)

Yeah.

Ginny (25:25)

Are actually going for free.

Linda Flanagan (25:27)

Right, right. Get a full athletic. Yeah. I mentioned earlier that I'm working on a documentary project now and it's a good time to talk about it because it's about mental health of collegiate women athletes. I bring it up now because I think what many athletes don't recognize men and women both, but is that maybe they realize it on some level intellectually what kind of commitment it's going to be. But it is when you become especially a Division 1 athlete and suppose you have a free ride. So it's in theory, it's free. You are basically an indentured servant to the college and you work them. Everyone, everybody says it's a full time job and that's on top of being a student. So you have two full time jobs and there's a lot of sturm and drying about this. And when you're a student, because it's very stressful, everyone, the kids are exhausted, sleep deprived, you know, they're physically exhausted from all the training. They're sleep deprived. They're, you know, kind of beholden, totally beholden to the coach. So they can't go home when they want. Their friend group is circumscribed which, okay, that's they're on a team. That's, that is their job. It is a job. So I, I bring that up because, you know, you sometimes be careful what you wish for with some of this stuff. Even if you want, you think you want your so called full ride and some people need it, of course, but it comes with enormous obligations that aren't for everyone.

Ginny (26:55)

Right. It is, it's a full time thing. So $30,000 for a full time thing. I mean that's like having maybe a $20 an hour job and working full time. So it's not like you're really getting anything for free. The college is making money off of in certain situations, a lot of money. I mean we've gone to some college, you know, volleyball games that cost $6 to get in. But on the end where it's a football game, I mean you can't even hardly get tickets. They're so expensive. They're not losing.

Linda Flanagan (27:23)

Right.

Ginny (27:24)

That's really interesting. I never thought about it that way.

Linda Flanagan (27:26)

Well, and another reason why they're really how they're really making money because the sports teams generally don't produce much money for colleges. The vast majority are drained. But what they do provide, the students who Google go who are admitted for sports tend to be wealthier and they forego their financial aid. Some of the financial aid options that parents are offered in college when their kids are offered what is the application called? FAFSA or something. I think it is where you apply and you know, in time the school presents you with various financial aid options. If you're an athlete, you forego, you typically forego those options. In exchange you, you commit to the school early decision. So in the fall of senior year, sometimes earlier, it's understood. And then you forego those financial aid options. So the school benefits that way as well. And they have your guaranteed admission. So that's really kind of where the advantage is to the college is because again the athletes who go are typically from wealthier families also.

Ginny (28:30)

Wow. And they're only given the full ride to 15% of the 2% of the.

Linda Flanagan (28:35)

Yes.

Ginny (28:36)

Of the ones who are athletes who are at that level. So it's really interesting things to think about. It's interesting. I guess, Linda, we got parents listening who have 2 year olds or 4 year olds and the impacts of these decisions are trickling down to those little ages. And I want to tell you a story. Our kids have just started doing some sports, like middle school, high school. It's pretty much just for fun. And they're involved in this, like, a homeschool program at this local school. And our daughter, who was in ninth grade, her feet started to hurt as she's playing basketball. And so we. We took her in and the. And the doctor said her feet just are not ready for the pounding on the gym floor. I mean, we are outside, so she's been on the grass, you know, she's been in the dirt, and. And it's given. Give to her feet.

Linda Flanagan (29:27)

Oh, interesting. That's interesting.

Ginny (29:30)

And he said, you know, if she wanted to play in college, you would have had to start her on this pounding on the gym floor at a lot younger of an age. And. And I had that quick, like, shoot.

Linda Flanagan (29:41)

Oh, no, we missed an opportunity.

Ginny (29:43)

I had that quick. And then I was like, what? But I don't care about her playing at college. She doesn't care about playing at college.

Linda Flanagan (29:51)

Yeah.

Ginny (29:51)

This is just for fun for now, to have some teammates. And, you know, and he gave her some ideas to sort of strengthen her feet a little bit. And she's. And she's doing better. But his words were basically like, you would have had to start in order to get her body, I guess, prepared, almost like, for this. Unnatural.

Linda Flanagan (30:08)

Yes. Yeah. That's a good way to put it.

Ginny (30:10)

Pounding on a gym floor on her feet. It's not natural. But then I did think, like, well, what is. What is our purpose here? It's not for college.

Linda Flanagan (30:18)

Yeah.

Ginny (30:18)

And I did have that quick, like, oh, but these decisions are really trickling down.

Linda Flanagan (30:24)

Yeah.

Ginny (30:24)

To the young parents with the young kids. One of the things that you talk about that I wouldn't have expected is the impact on family.

Linda Flanagan (30:30)

Yes. Oh, it's massive. Massive.

Ginny (30:34)

We only see the glitz and the glamour. We only see the star. The star quarterback who makes the thing, and you get the best seats and you're on the sideline. And that's sort of what you see. But what are the downsides?

Linda Flanagan (30:44)

Yes. Well. And, you know, you mentioned the Michigan quarterback, and you look out there and think, wow, wouldn't that be amazing to be that person, to be the parent? And it's true. You know, it's like something to admire. Like, it's really admirable what some of these people have achieved. And I think it's always important to remember that it's those who reach the highest level. It comes from the Person not from their parent. Like so that quarterback, he wanted it, you know, he really wanted it. That's why he's there. So it really. I think parents, we often overstate our, our influence, our ability to. You can't, you can't buy intrinsic motivation in a kid. Okay, I lost my train of thought.

Ginny (31:24)

We're talking about the. What are. That's like a new year. This is actually I haven't done a podcast probably in two or three weeks. So I'm like, oh, I'm a little rusty. But we're talking about. We see all the glitz and the glamour.

Linda Flanagan (31:38)

Oh yes, yes. Oh, the effect on families. Yes. Okay. I think it is really under or unappreciated the impact of competitive sports on families because they become so important that they take over. They affect, if there's a marriage, the spousal relationship. So that often mom and dad are going in different directions or mom and mom, whatever. And you know, there's a divide and conquer approach. It affects parents exercise, own health and well being which is something the surgeon general came out with in August that past years raising alarms about parents mental health. I mean everybody's mental health is in crisis, you know, because parents are so nervous about their kids and they're just. There's an exhaustion Olympics going on about who can be more self sacrificing. So it has an effect on like.

Ginny (32:34)

And you're sitting a lot. I mean I would, I will say that, you know, you're sitting for an hour and a half volleyball game, you're sitting for back to back because then they want to stay for the other team because their friends are on that one. I mean maybe this is a three hour thing where you're just sort sitting around.

Linda Flanagan (32:48)

Yes. Yeah. So it has an effect on the health and well being of the, of the mother and father to the extent that they're involved and of generally they will be because it is such a time consuming endeavor. One study that I always point to done by it was a Harris poll survey, found that of a certain segment of parents, 19% those who have kids playing clubs and things spent at least 19 hours. 19% spent at least 20 hours a week on their kids sports. So obviously there's a cost involved. So to the individual parents, to the unit, to the other siblings who, you know, it's really hard to navigate all of these activities and practices and games if you have multiple kids playing multiple sports. But if you have children and many do many families, some kids aren't into it and they don't want to do it and they're, they prefer art or they want to be outside. They don't want to have an organized activity, which is the way my family worked. Then you have this imbalance where the parents are spending so much time with the one who's got organized stuff and the others who, you know, they, they're doing something that's not as much of a time suck. So it affects siblings, it affects family dinners, family meals, they competitive sports. Families have far fewer family meals together. It can affect employment patterns of usually of mothers because this, the time requirements are so demanding that you know, you pare down, you go from full time to part time. So it obvious has an effect on family in a way that I think is not appreciated. And I would really encourage the young parents of young kids who are like suddenly being confused, confronted with the, you know, oh my God, I'm supposed to get my 3 year old in basketball to delay, not to join. It's to the extent that the child wants to the low key stuff, but to delay as long as possible entry into this rat race because it will start early. But that doesn't mean you, you have to go along with it because once you're on that train, there's no getting off. It's really hard to get off that train because it just becomes herself perpetuating and you know, the endless seasons and no summers and few vacation times. The same survey I mentioned, Harris Poll survey, 36% of these families had fewer family vacations. It's because it's taken, it's all consumed by sports. Now I should add that sometimes, you know, it's not like that's all bad for many families. They make these, this is their vacation. They go to Disney World for the tournament, the soccer tournament or whatever. And you know, there's something to be said for that as well. It's just I think that you need to be aware that that's what you're doing. It has to be more. You can fall into it and like suddenly realize, you know, your, your children aren't working in the summer. They, their whole lives are spent revolving around their sport. And you're not going away as a family to camp or you're not, you're missing your mother's 80th birthday party because of the soccer tournament or the baseball game. And you know, you have to have your be very conscious of the fact that this is what's coming, you know, as soon as you sign up for that stuff.

Ginny (36:07)

That's why the book is so fantastic. Take back the game How Money and mania are Ruining kids Sports and why it matters. I think it's a book that every parent reads, right? It's like you just want to be aware of what's going on with the colleges and the coaches and the pressures and yourself and this whole concept of what do they have to look forward to if all we're doing is sitting on the sidelines. Like all of that is parenting information that makes you stop and think what do I really want? Oh, such a clutch off season pickup. Dave. I was worried we'd bring back the same team. I meant Those blackout motorized shades lines.com made it crazy affordable to replace our old blinds. Hard to install? No, it's easy. I installed these and then got some for my mom. She talked to a design consultant for free and scheduled a professional measure and install hall of Fame son. They're the number one online retailer of custom window coverings in the world. Blinds.com is the go to blinds.com for.

Linda Flanagan (36:58)

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Ginny (37:00)

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Linda Flanagan (38:50)

Yes.

Ginny (38:51)

That it would.

Linda Flanagan (38:52)

Yes. Well, yeah, that's. See, I think that's one of the comforting one of the rationales we like to, we parents like to fall back on about why we're doing all this crazy stuff. Well, it's good for, you know, it builds character. Well, first of all, character is very generic term. Like what do you even mean? What do we even mean when we're talking about character? There's a study that was a meta analysis, so a look at all the research on character and sports over a 40 year period and they found that sports did not. There was no evidence that sports improved moral reasoning or sportsmanship. And there's also not. There's no evidence or it's not clear that even if you learn something on a team that it trickles if you know, it migrates to other parts of your life so that you become. You're a real disciplined baseball player. You're going to apply that to school. Maybe you will. What I wanted to point out in the book is this is an assumption we have that is not backed up by evidence that playing sports makes you a better person, makes you a better teammate, makes you more honest. If you think about character in terms of honesty, well, okay, that's a bit tricky because a lot of the athletes, the most serious athletes, have been caught in cheating scandals. And you know, when you lift the hood up a little bit, there's a lot of unsavory activities going on in order to win. So, you know, character is just this blunt term and when you peel it back and you look at it piece by piece, honesty, does it make you better working with other people? That's not clear. Other activities can do the same thing. Drama creates bonds with other people. Working generates. If your child works after school, well, they're getting self discipline there. They have to be on time. We just have this bias towards thinking that sports are all good and it's worth all the sacrifices because it's all good. And I think we need to challenge that. Not that sports aren't good or can I think sports can be wonderful with a good coach and a good team and a healthy environment. I'm all for them. And I was a coach and I'm an athlete like I'm pro sports. But I think we really do need to be a little more critical in how we think about what we're doing, how we're spending our time with our kids, what kind of programs we're putting them into and what their values are. Because it's not all good.

Ginny (41:22)

And it's tricky because a lot of times you don't have any decision making power. You just join the program and they put you with whoever the coach is. And if there are some issues, I don't think there's all that much that you can do about that. There's a lot of things to think through because that's a long sports season. If your kid starts at three and they're going till they're 18, they graduate from high school, that's a lot of coaches and a lot of programs and a lot of personalities. And some of them are going to be very kid focused and maybe some of them are going to be more like you were talking about, where it's a little bit of their own status or they're trying to make ends meet financially and there's just a lot of conflicting interest there.

Linda Flanagan (42:01)

Yes. Yeah.

Ginny (42:02)

Beyond how it's going for the kids.

Linda Flanagan (42:04)

Yes.

Ginny (42:04)

Okay. I think about this all the time, Linda. How are we presenting adulthood?

Linda Flanagan (42:10)

Yeah.

Ginny (42:10)

And the writing. That's what I'm saying. The writing is so good. People can find more@lindaflaniganauthor.com I'll make sure I put the link in the show notes. Is that where they can find information about the documentary when it comes out as well?

Linda Flanagan (42:20)

Yes.

Ginny (42:21)

Okay. LINDA Flanagan, AUTHOR and you can find the book there. But you write things like flee the bleachers. Flee the bleachers. Resuscitate your own interests and relationships. Instead, miss some games. And I have done this. You know, our kids are playing some sports, are playing basketball, and I've missed different games for work or dinner with a friend. And I think about you all the time.

Linda Flanagan (42:42)

I'm so pleased. Thank you.

Ginny (42:45)

Because it, you, you have that little bit of angst and then, and then you're like, no, no. And you know, you like go to the championship, like show up for some of the big ones. But it is okay to miss some stuff.

Linda Flanagan (42:56)

Yes.

Ginny (42:56)

And I think that's kind of almost with every, with anything, you know, they've got. There's a lot of things that kids do and you can miss a little bit of it. What current message are we sending to kids in the way that things are right now, where we're on the sidelines for 20 hours a week? What current message are we sending kids about adulthood.

Linda Flanagan (43:14)

Well, you know, to me it's like I, it's like, is it any wonder that, you know, a lot of young people don't want to have kids because it looks like a, both a big bore and a lot of drudgery. And all the fun you had when you were growing up or when you were in college or high school and people were doting on you and you know, picking you up and dropping you off and bringing you snacks, you know, okay, now it's your job to be the grunt person. And I think it's just not a very attractive depiction of adulthood. And this is why I think not only if miss games for your own sake, because we need to cultivate our own interests and not be so tethered to our kids, but also for, for them. So that the sport we, it's a reminder like the sport is not for us kids. Sports are for kids. They're not there in order to make us feel good or give us something to do or meet people, which is nice. It's one of the nice little side benefits that you do. You often become friends with your kids, your children's teammates, parents, which is nice, but that's going to go away. And you know, one thing I've learned since the book came out is there's been a rise in what's called empty nest coaching for parents. Because parents feel like they have lost their job when their kids go to college. It's like, oh my God, my entire life revolved around their activities. Now here I am, what do I do? And who is this person I've been married to? And I no longer know because all we've done is, you know, throw ourselves on the ground to cultivate our kids interests. And I also, you know, I just feel like it's so, I suppose it feels clear to me and it's whether I'm right or wrong, who knows? But you know, Vivec Murthy again, the Surgeon General in August came out with this advisory about parents like they're spending more time with their kids. They're spending more, more time on the floor reading and playing with them and nurturing every little talent and interest to give them an edge to help them advance and make it in the world, which I get. You know, we all want our kids to do well, but the cost to parents is so high that we're not getting enough sleep, we're not getting exercise, we're not eating properly. Maybe we have friends, maybe we don't. And that he is saying it's okay to not do all that stuff. And that is part of my message about miss some games, you know, go have dinner with somebody, Go do yoga or exercise yourself. Like, cultivate your own interests. It's better for kids, too. I mean, I also think if you. When you think about your own parents and how involved they were in your life, like, if yours are anything like mine, they were involved in care a lot. But my successes were not their successes, and my activities were not their activities. It was very separate and, you know, it seemed fine. Kids are going to be fine if we just give them a little more freedom and probably their mental health will be better, too, because this is the other issue. We know that teenagers are struggling with so. With anxiety and depression, and we know social media is cancer, but kids need more unsupervised time. They need time where they can play, they can be outside, they can come up with games. They don't have adults orchestrating everything. Kids need this in for their own confidence, and we've denied them that. So it's like, to me, it's so obvious. Like, step back, carve out some time for yourself, and let your kids do something on their own. Get. Take away their phone. Get some other kids around. Go on, let them go out in the woods. To me, it seems like so. It would be so liberating to know you don't have to do that and your kids are going to be fine.

Ginny (46:59)

Are gonna be fine. That's like the. The overall message here. They're gonna be fine. And I think that that worry, that fear, it sells a lot of things. Yes, it sells a lot of programs. Because we're worried that they're going to be fine because we don't know. You know, you don't know until they're 28 and. And then you're like, oh, maybe I shouldn't have spent all those Saturdays. Someone even said that. And I really liked this. Their athletic success is unimportant. My regret now, one mother of two said, is that we didn't just do stuff together, like hiking, camping, wading in a river and other stuff as a family, instead of all piling into a car on Saturday to go to some idiotic soccer match.

Linda Flanagan (47:40)

She nailed it.

Ginny (47:41)

Yeah.

Linda Flanagan (47:41)

I sometimes think about when you coming home from the hospital with a baby, you know, if you can remember back those days a long time ago for me, and all the hope you have and the expectations of having a family and what that means, and it's so kind of romantic and special. And I don't think when you're Bringing your baby home, you're thinking, boy, I just can't wait to get in the car and drive them all over the place to some random game or random practice that I. Why? Like, I think people need to say, why am I doing this? And who is this for? Door. You need to interrogate some of those what you're doing and say, why am I doing this? So that when your kids finally do go to college, you know, you can say, well, we had a good time together. You know, we. We were hiking or waiting in the river. We weren't just going around. From one match to another, it's usually divided up. You know, it's dividing and conquering family.

Ginny (48:39)

It's the same thing over and over again. So the. I've read that the brain encodes that as one memory. So if you constantly are going to the same field and doing games, it's just. It's like one thing. It's one. Yeah, we went there. But if you're hiking, it's. It's different every time because nature is constantly making things change. Maybe you see a deer, maybe you see a bunny, maybe it rains that day, maybe it's cold, maybe there's snow. There's always this variability in nature. So even sort of your simple type things, there can be an extension of the memory base there. It makes you feel like you've lived a longer life. And I could see that if you're looking back and you're like, gosh, every single Saturday we went to this one field. It just feels like one thing.

Linda Flanagan (49:19)

Yeah.

Ginny (49:19)

And it's hard to make those decisions without having the hindsight. But I think you have to. This is my opinion. I think you have to step out on the shoulders of others who have come before you and who have written fantastic books like yours and say, I trust that. Yeah, I trust what she's saying. And so I'm going to make decisions based off of faith in someone who has researched this and someone who knows and is in the know and who has spent several years writing a book and say, I trust that wisdom, and I'm gonna go for it, even though I feel shaky about it.

Linda Flanagan (49:50)

Yeah.

Ginny (49:51)

I have thought to myself so many times since reading your book, how am I presenting adulthood? I mean, I think about it. I mean, it's become a little soundtrack in my mind. I want to read just a couple more of the paragraphs because it's so good. We're presenting adulthood as a dismal destination that is best delayed or even avoided. We are sending signals to kids that Grown ups lead empty and pathetic lives. Thanks to our children, we have something to do this weekend. Don't mind me over here. Broiling in the fetid, suffocated in the fetid, suffocating, treeless expanse. The wait will be worth it if only I get the chance to watch my son retrieve a ball or block a goal or nail a pass. All my other duties, running, visiting my ailing father, catching up with a friend, mean nothing next to this boy's lacrosse game. This eclipses all you say. Miss some games. It's not in their interest to go to everything, model a happy adulthood and cultivate your own interests rather than feeding off of theirs. Is a good book.

Linda Flanagan (50:53)

Thank you, Jenny.

Ginny (50:54)

Cultivating our own interests signal to children that growing up is not so bad. Wow. Really, really something that has stuck with me, Linda, the whole time and I'm so thankful for it. Can we hit one last topic? Just about?

Linda Flanagan (51:07)

Sure.

Ginny (51:07)

Sports injury.

Linda Flanagan (51:09)

Oh yes, yes.

Ginny (51:10)

That's another thing that you don't think about at all which is overuse. And also I've read in your book and then you start hearing about it about the maybe concussions, some of the more impactful sports and what that's doing to the kids brains.

Linda Flanagan (51:24)

Yes. Okay, here's some new data for you, Ginny. The Aspen Institute did a study of injuries of kids between the ages of 6 and 17 and they found that 44% of the kids who played sports got injured. Now, okay. And I'm always having been an athlete and still active again, injuries are just part of sports like that's. You can't. Like bubble wrap kids and that's fine. But there are some injuries that are not. We shouldn't look at that way. One in 20 kids tore knee ligament. So one in 20 kids, one in 12 got a concussion. And you know, concussions we all know are terrible. But the knee ligaments are I think a really underappreciated problem among parents that kids who, if you, if you tear your anterior cruciate ligament, which is the big ligament attaching your, what is it? Your tibia to your. Something I should know? It's a crucial ligament in your knee. If you tear it, you have to have massive surgery that's going to take months and months of recovery time. Half the people who tear their ACL will have arthritis in 10 years. So you see all these kids and it happens all the time in my area where you hear about the middle school girl because 13 year old girls are the most vulnerable to injury by the way they tear their ACL, then you think they're 13. When they're in their 20s, some of them are going to have arthritis. They're going to be hobbling up and down stairs. These aren't things you just get over and recover from. And a lot of those kinds of injuries, like the knee injuries are a function in part a function of overuse. Kids are playing too much. They're simply playing too much. Of course kids in the lower income areas aren't playing enough because they don't have any options. But in the middle and upper income areas they're playing too much and suffering these injuries that are potentially catastrophic, like life changing injuries. If you have arthritis in your 20s, that's kind of a bummer.

Ginny (53:28)

It is. I mean, because I'm in my 40s and I'm thinking, I've started to think about like, how long, how much longer will I have to live in order for my youngest daughter for me to still be alive when my youngest daughter is my age.

Linda Flanagan (53:42)

How old is she?

Ginny (53:44)

She's eight. So I, I actually was thinking, I was thinking just this past week I was like, I mean I got, I needed like 50 more years here of good health. That's what I'm. But I'm like that's, I mean that gets me pretty old and, and I just. Because she's like a clingy, like she's a little mama's girl. And I just think, well, what if. Yeah, you know, my mom is still alive. So I just really started to have these thoughts of like longevity and, and vibrancy into older age for the sake of being around and not being a burden. And so I guess, yeah, these are things that really matter for the long term. You wrote our youth sports system which glorifies winning, tolerates bullying, which that's something we didn't even touch on, which is, you know, we expect teachers to treat kids certain ways, but coaches sort of sometimes can get away with.

Linda Flanagan (54:31)

Yep.

Ginny (54:32)

Not treating kids like how they should be treated and normalizes over training. Much of it is done with the complicity and spirit support. Appearance also brings lasting emotional harm to some of the young at its mercy. We all know it's unsafe and unhealthy, but still it persists. You're Talking to this Dr. Heather Bergeson and you wrote it's a paradox. Playing sports and exercising are so good for kids until it all goes too far and teeters over into injury and despair.

Linda Flanagan (55:00)

That's it. I mean there's, this is what I tried to get the balance in the book that, like, look, athletics can be great. Like, I'm not condemning sports. I, I think there's a. They play a role, they should play a role in our lives. Movement, exercise, games. That's like all part of the, you know, richness of life. It's just when it becomes too much, particularly at these younger ages when kids are just kind of, they don't really have that much agency in the whole thing. They're kind of shoved into these things by their parents because we have course have control over their schedules. So I just think we need again to like, interrogate some of what we're doing and think more carefully about what are the long term impacts. Who is this really for? Who's benefiting from this? Who's benefiting? Sometimes the kids are. And you know, if you have one of those kids, good for you. And great. But a lot of kids, that's not what it turns out to be.

Unknown (55:55)

Yeah.

Ginny (55:55)

Lots to think through. Lots to think through. Just in all of your parenting. And that's why I just think it's such a wonderful book. It has stuck with me for years at this point. I mean, we talked. It was years ago.

Linda Flanagan (56:04)

Yes, thank you.

Ginny (56:06)

Ginny came out in August of 2022, which means you would have written it before then and we would have had the conversation. Yeah, around then. And it's 2025. And so here I am constantly thinking, how am I presenting adulthood?

Linda Flanagan (56:19)

I think it's important, you know, because if you're always miserable and just grumping her out and not having any fun and not, you know, sometimes I think about, like, I can't remember whoever, where I read this, but like, of older parents, older generations, where they would have, you know, dinner parties and they'd be smoking and you'd wake up the next day and there'd be the smell of smoke and parents being like, really doing adult things the kids had no part of. And like, that was something you kind of looked forward to. Like, wow, I can't wait until I can be doing that now. It's like, well, boy, it doesn't seem like, you know, it's a lot of fun. It doesn't. I imagine myself as a child looking at the life of a parent who's just driving around everywhere as a glorified chauffeur and, you know, snack supplier. And I think that doesn't look that appealing.

Ginny (57:10)

It's true. My parents would be doing stuff and you'd be. You get sent to bed. Yeah. You're like, oh, what are they doing down there? I wish I could, you know, whatever. You sneak to the top of the stairs or.

Linda Flanagan (57:21)

That's it.

Ginny (57:22)

Yeah.

Linda Flanagan (57:22)

Not that I'm condoning smoking by any means. It was just a different kind of era where, you know, it's a little more.

Ginny (57:29)

I mean, it could have been any party. Like my parents, they were. Have their church.

Linda Flanagan (57:32)

Yeah.

Ginny (57:32)

You know, their church. Sunday school class over for a Christmas party. I mean, it was like that, you know, but you're still kind of banished to your room and they're having a party.

Linda Flanagan (57:40)

So.

Ginny (57:41)

Yeah, you there. There are these things that, you know, you just want to.

Unknown (57:45)

Yeah.

Ginny (57:45)

You want to really think about how you're presenting adulthood. And I just so appreciate that I got the opportunity to read this book, that I got the opportunity to. To chat with you then. And how interesting that you know that for years now that I just constantly am going back to, you know, when I get nervous about college, I'm like, well, this is a game I learned from Linda. You know, there are some things going on here that are not just straightforward. And so it's been really, really, really helpful for me. And I am so, so grateful that you've come on to share this with us. And, and I'm really excited about the documentary that's coming out hopefully later this year and people can find that at. Linda Flanagan, author.com. is there anything else you want to say about the documentary? Like some themes, them themes that you're exploring or what we can be looking forward to?

Linda Flanagan (58:26)

Yes, well, you can actually look it up. It has its own little website and it's called Beyond Stigma Doc. It's not just Beyond Beyond Stigma Doc because it's a documentary series and, you know, it really looks at the what. What the serious female athlete experience is like at the collegiate level. And again, you know, peeling back the layers a little bit. So it's not just we. I'm thrilled about the success, know, the women athletes have had, like at the Olympics. That was so great. You can have 2 thoughts in your head at once. Yes, that was great. And a lot of what's going on among. For women athletes is not great. And they're being injured at much higher rates. They're miserable, many of them. Like, we need to make some changes in the collegiate women athlete area and high school as well, so that we're not just applying the male model to women.

Ginny (59:17)

I'm really looking forward to watching that documentary and maybe we'll talk about it when the fall comes and that comes out.

Linda Flanagan (59:23)

That would be great.

Ginny (59:24)

My sincere appreciation, Linda, for putting out into the world. Such a fantastic book that's so applicable to parents, whether they have little kids or older kids, whether they're doing sports or not. And these are the things that you really want to be thinking about long term so that you can kind of step out in faith and say it's okay to play more, it's okay for me to step back a little bit more, and how am I going to present adulthood so that my kids are excited and they have something to look forward to because adulthood lasts a lot longer than childhood.

Linda Flanagan (59:50)

That's right. That's right. You don't want to have to get an empty nest coach when they're 18.

Ginny (59:55)

That's right.

Linda Flanagan (59:56)

That's right.

Ginny (59:57)

Linda, thank you so much for being here.

Linda Flanagan (59:58)

Thank you, Jenny. It's my pleasure. Sa, Sa.

Ginny (61:25)

Sa Sa Sa Sa.

Linda Flanagan (64:49)

Sa.

Ginny (65:40)

Sa.

Alyssa Blask Campbell (66:11)

When it comes to raising kids, there's so much to consider. Things like, what do we feed them? When do we feed them? How do they sleep? What does it look like to raise kind kids? How does their nervous system work? How do I keep myself calm? What are my triggers? There's so much that comes into play, and we are distilling all of that information for you at Voices of your Village podcast, where we bring experts in the field of early childhood and education and psychology and across the board so that you don't have to comb the Internet for information. You get to show up and hang out and have shame free judgment, free conversations and insights into what it looks like to raise kind, empathetic, emotionally intelligent humans. I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I have a master's degree in early childhood education. I'm a mom of two, and I am walking this journey right alongside you doing this work. Come hang out with me at Voices of your Village and we can dive into real conversations with actionable tips.