1KHO 416: Loneliness Has Nothing To Do With Being Alone | Heather MacFadyen, Don't Mom Alone

Summary

Episode Summary: "Loneliness Has Nothing To Do With Being Alone" featuring Heather McFadyen

Podcast: The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
Host: Jenny Ertz
Guest: Heather McFadyen
Episode: 1KHO 416
Release Date: January 17, 2025

In this engaging episode of The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast, host Jenny Ertz sits down with Heather McFadyen, the author of Don't Mom Alone and Right Where You Belong. Together, they delve deep into the nuances of motherhood, the pervasive sense of loneliness that many mothers experience, and the importance of establishing authentic connections. The conversation is rich with personal anecdotes, insightful discussions, and practical advice aimed at empowering mothers to embrace their roles without succumbing to overwhelming pressures.

1. Introduction to Heather McFadyen

[00:00] Jenny Ertz: Welcomes Heather McFadyen, highlighting their shared publisher, Baker Revelle. They discuss Heather's books, Don't Mom Alone and Right Where You Belong, and her extensive podcasting history that began in 2013.

Notable Quote:

Heather McFadyen [00:12]: "I lucked out because I had a blogging mastermind group... they helped me get it all set up."

2. Journey into Podcasting and Authorship

Heather recounts her transition from blogging to podcasting, influenced by a mastermind group of digitally savvy women. She emphasizes the role of Serial in popularizing podcasts, making them more accessible to a broader audience.

[01:46] Heather McFadyen: Reflects on how Serial changed people's perception of podcasts, making them more eager to explore the medium.

3. Exploring "Don't Mom Alone"

Heather introduces her second podcast, Sidetracked, a Christian women’s comedy show, and discusses the expansion of Don't Mom Alone into a multifaceted platform addressing various aspects of motherhood.

Notable Quote:

Heather McFadyen [04:19]: "We kind of grew a little posse of people and so now we just launched its own show in the comedy sector."

4. Challenging the Notion of Parental Responsibility

A central theme of the conversation revolves around the misconception that mothers are entirely responsible for their children's outcomes. Heather shares insights from a dinner with Dr. Townsend and Dr. Cloud, authors of Boundaries.

[12:05] Heather McFadyen: Discusses their experiment where both Dr. Townsend and Dr. Cloud concluded that parents are only 30% responsible for their children's development.

Heather McFadyen [12:05]: "They both turned around the whiteboards, and it was 30%. So it's not like I would ever... You can't keep it all."

5. Identity Beyond Motherhood

Heather emphasizes the importance of developing an identity separate from motherhood. She cites Jamie Winship’s Living Fearlessly to illustrate how personal identity should not be solely tied to roles or vocations.

[15:24] Heather McFadyen: Shares Jamie Winship’s story about his son identifying as a "skateboarder for Jesus" and the profound impact it had.

Heather McFadyen [16:22]: "Your identity is not that you're a mom. That's a role. But like, it's not your whole identity."

6. Understanding Loneliness in Motherhood

The discussion shifts to loneliness, redefining it not as being physically alone but feeling disconnected despite being surrounded by people. Heather discusses strategies to overcome this through vulnerability and authentic connections.

Notable Quote:

Heather McFadyen [30:09]: "Loneliness has nothing to do with being alone. It’s the feeling of being alone."

7. The Seven Types of Rest

Heather introduces the concept of the "Seven Types of Rest," inspired by Dr. Sandra Dalton, highlighting how different forms of rest are crucial for overall well-being.

[36:09] Heather McFadyen: Breaks down the seven types:

• Physical Rest
• Mental Rest
• Spiritual Rest
• Emotional Rest
• Social Rest
• Sensory Rest
• Creative Rest

[37:22] Jenny Ertz: Elaborates on creative rest as engaging in activities that rejuvenate the mind and spirit, such as embroidery or crochet.

8. Practical Applications and Personal Anecdotes

Heather shares personal stories, including memories from her childhood spent outdoors, underscoring the importance of nature in development and rest.

Notable Quote:

Heather McFadyen [45:31]: "I grew up on five acres in Indiana, and I was homeschooled. So I played in the woods for hours, hours and hours."

9. Encouraging Authentic Connections

Heather advocates for building genuine relationships where vulnerabilities can be shared without fear of judgment or rejection. She underscores the value of supportive communities in mitigating feelings of loneliness.

[32:33] Heather McFadyen: "It's worth the risk of rejection to pursue vulnerable, authentic connection."

10. Conclusion and Key Takeaways

Jenny and Heather wrap up the discussion by highlighting the critical insights shared:

• Redefining Responsibility: Mothers are not solely responsible for their children's outcomes.
• Identity Separation: Developing an identity beyond motherhood to alleviate undue pressure.
• Variety of Rest: Recognizing and practicing different types of rest to maintain well-being.
• Authentic Connections: Building supportive communities to combat loneliness.

Heather encourages listeners to engage with her books and podcasts for deeper exploration of these topics.

Final Thought

Heather McFadyen’s heartfelt and insightful discussion provides a roadmap for mothers seeking to navigate the complexities of parenting without losing themselves. By fostering authentic relationships, redefining personal identity, and prioritizing various forms of rest, mothers can cultivate a more fulfilling and balanced life.

Favorite Memory from Childhood Outside:
Heather reminisces about sweeping rocks by a creek with her friend, discovering a strawberry shortcake doll named Penny, and building playgrounds with her father. These memories highlight the profound impact of outdoor play and familial bonds on her upbringing.

---

For more insights and resources, listeners are encouraged to explore Heather McFadyen’s books and her podcasts, Don't Mom Alone and Sidetracked. Engage with these platforms to support your journey in motherhood and beyond.

Transcript

[Jenny Ertz]

All right, here we go. Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Ertz. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside, and a new friend is here today. Heather McFaddy.

[Heather McFadyen]

You got it.

[Jenny Ertz]

Welcome.

[Heather McFadyen]

So good to hear. Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's always fun to be the guest.

[Jenny Ertz]

We have the same publisher.

[Heather McFadyen]

Aww.

[Jenny Ertz]

Baker Revelle.

[Heather McFadyen]

Yeah.

[Jenny Ertz]

Isn't that fun?

[Heather McFadyen]

I know, they're great.

[Jenny Ertz]

When I was like, in that stage of writing books and figuring out who the publisher would be, they sent me a copy of right where you belong that was like their. Like, you would really like us because we did this book.

[Heather McFadyen]

Oh, well, that feels nice. Thank you for that. Yes.

[Jenny Ertz]

Now I can't find it. I like, did one of my kids take here, but I did. So that's a fantastic book. That's your newest one, right? Right where you belong. How to identify and fully occupy your God given space. Newest one, but I read and I love this cover too. Don't mom alone. Growing the relationships you need to be the mom you want to be. Don't mom alone. And you have a podcast by the same name. Actually, you have two podcasts. You started podcasting in 2013. I always wonder, like, how did people even know to do that?

[Heather McFadyen]

I lucked out because I had a blogging mastermind group. These were women who are like cutting edge digital technology people. And we all met at a blogging conference and hung out and all that networking, and we lived all over the place, but we would stay connected on a walkie talkie app, you know, throughout the week. Was before Marco Polo people back in the day. And yeah, a couple of them started podcasting and I thought, huh, I think I'd rather do that than blog. And I could tell other people's stories and not just always my stuff. And so podcast was born. They helped me get it all set up.

[Jenny Ertz]

It's been over a decade.

[Heather McFadyen]

I know, I know. And then serial came out, and that really helped people know what a podcast was and take the time and the energy to figure out how to listen to a podcast. You remember Serial?

[Unknown]

No.

[Jenny Ertz]

Tell me more.

[Heather McFadyen]

It was like a crime they were talking about, you know, some crime that wasn't solved correctly or someone was innocent. Do you remember that?

[Jenny Ertz]

No.

[Heather McFadyen]

This was maybe even a long time ago.

[Jenny Ertz]

But was it like almost like listening to a never ending audiobook kind of like that?

[Heather McFadyen]

No, it wasn't. It ended. It was a season. But I think so many people were talking about it that it was so popular that everyone's like, wait, what. What is a podcast? What do you mean? What do you mean? I have an app on my phone. And so they were willing to ask the questions that maybe they'd heard the word before. It's like your reticular formation, you know, the part of your brain that once you see one thing, it's like you filter everything out. You start seeing it everywhere. You're buying a car now. Everybody has that car.

[Jenny Ertz]

Yeah.

[Heather McFadyen]

So podcast. You might have heard the word, but you didn't take the energy or time to figure it out until it mattered.

[Jenny Ertz]

Did it happen a long time after you had started, or was it like right around the same time?

[Heather McFadyen]

Probably like a couple years. I mean, it was. I. I was out there podcasting to my mom and a couple friends. No, back in those days. Back in those days, I think having an author on your show, it wasn't done. It's all these people had been reading, let's say Big Mama, Boo Mama, you know, and Vos Camp, and then to hear their voice and to connect with them. We didn't even have Instagram where you could see them on stories. So that's where podcasting was like, oh, I can get access to these writers that I love in a moving form.

[Jenny Ertz]

Yeah, so Don't Mom Alone. And then you started a second one. A second podcast. When did you start that one?

[Heather McFadyen]

About a year ago. I started with a friend. She was relaunching her show under a different name and so I thought I'd help her. And we did like a six part series on my show and people loved it so much that they asked for more. And we were like, how do we do this? And someone said, why don't you just do one show a month on Don't Mom Alone? That's like, called the new show's name to kind of see how it goes for a year, see if you can keep up with it, yada yada. And it just kept taking off and people loved it. And we kind of grew a little posse of people and so now we just launched its own show in the comedy sector of that.

[Jenny Ertz]

I love that. Yeah, yeah, mom comedy.

[Heather McFadyen]

Yeah, a little bit of fun.

[Jenny Ertz]

So tell us about it. It's called Sidetracked. It comes out on Fridays. Every other Friday.

[Heather McFadyen]

Every other Friday. And then there's a thing we're launching, probably it's launched once your episode releases. It's called Super Trackers. So if you're really into getting sidetracked, we'll have episodes available for them on those off weeks. So potentially every Week. You could get a little laughter in.

[Jenny Ertz]

All right, so that's two podcasts to be aware of and going on don't mom alone since 2013. I just think that's incredible. I don't even think I knew what podcasts were then at all. I didn't know about cereal.

[Heather McFadyen]

We're still in kindergarten. I don't know.

[Jenny Ertz]

You were still learning to read. Well into my adult years at that point. Okay, so you say you don't like mom books, but you wrote two.

[Heather McFadyen]

Yeah.

[Jenny Ertz]

Tell us why you don't like mom books. And then you wrote, maybe you don't consider yours mom books.

[Heather McFadyen]

Here's a story, morning glory. I don't love advice books or formula books, so I want to give frameworks. I want to give perspective. I want to give connection points so you can have real people who know your real story give you real insight. I want to foster relationships that can continue to support you in your journey. Because I have certain gifts and talents and interests. I have certain weaknesses. But if I just wrote a book that was all about my strengths and told you, be like me, that's not very helpful. Or like, parent your kids like I parented my kids. Your kids are very different than mine. Your journey. You are different than me. And so to me, that is. It can feel like defeat if you read something like that, or you're already doing it and you're like, well, that wasn't helpful at all. So, anyway, that's my thought on that.

[Jenny Ertz]

So you took yours into more of this framework. And one of the things that I loved, I liked this. And I'm trying to think about how long ago you wrote this, because I always don't ever want to put an author on the spot.

[Heather McFadyen]

It was in 2021.

[Jenny Ertz]

Stop that.

[Heather McFadyen]

2020 is. I was writing it during the pandemic. Yeah.

[Jenny Ertz]

And it came out in 2021. Home with four boys, writing a book. Sounds ideal.

[Heather McFadyen]

I thought I would write it spring of 2020, before they got out of school, because I don't homeschool them. They're all in different places. And then we could have the summer together to be outside, a thousand hours outside. And guess what? That was not the plan. Instead, I was home. Homeschool, whatever that was, not homeschooling, whatever that was at home. They were all at home, trying to manage. I was their secretary, scanning things, sending things in, trying to keep them on top of stuff and writing a book. So did not work out like I thought, but it did put me back in the mindset of a mom. Who has kids around constantly so that I didn't write things that are ethereal and theoretical and, you know.

[Jenny Ertz]

Yeah.

[Heather McFadyen]

Kept my boots to the ground, you know.

[Jenny Ertz]

Well, and I love that it's called Don't Mom Alone. And then you wrote it when you were probably totally alone.

[Heather McFadyen]

Well, and that too, like, motherhood can be isolating.

[Jenny Ertz]

Yeah.

[Heather McFadyen]

As a stage, as a season. And then we had this phenomenon where the entire world experienced that. And I thought, huh, this felt need just expanded beyond motherhood.

[Jenny Ertz]

Right.

[Heather McFadyen]

Put any word in. Don't blank alone. Don't podcast alone. Don't go. Don't. Don't do life alone. And so that was actually helpful too, to kind of really narrow in on how to how these principles. How does this perspective infiltrate all of life and all people?

[Jenny Ertz]

Yeah, it's interesting. I think you're talking about you because you talked about your own mom in here. But this beautiful story about when your mom came and helped after you'd had a baby and it just reminded you that motherhood lasts forever. Your. Your mom brought you more than breakfast. She brought you perspective and was in wisdom as you entered this unknown territory. So you're talking a lot about your mom and you know this perspective that she gives. And in looking at the different generations, it's like, well, your mom raised you at a different time. And now we're in this era where there's a lot of pressure to make sure that your child is enriched and they have all of these different opportunities. And so you talked about this statistic. How much of what my child becomes is my fault? Wait a minute. That's like a great question. Because, you know, everyone's kind of thinking that, like, if they don't turn out, how much is how much of that?

[Heather McFadyen]

How. How do I like, because I was telling you, my mom parented two sets of kids. So my older brother and sister, and then she had me and my younger brother and she decided, hey, I'm going to do this different the second go round. And she did all of the things that Crunchy moms. Sorry, no offense, Crunchy Moms, I love you. But like, she was doing it before y'all knew. I mean, she was making her own pasta. Non toxic Saran Wrap, homeschooled us.

[Jenny Ertz]

How do you make non toxic Saran Wrap?

[Heather McFadyen]

I don't even know. I don't know. She went to some co op. We had a co op, we had a vegetable co op. I'm telling you, she did all the things before y'all knew anyway, she just wanted to get it so. Right. And she would even tell me now. She was like, man, it's the same. It's two sides of the same coin, really. It's saying, I am fully responsible for how this person turns out. And that's a lie. That's a lie. Especially if you are a person of faith, it's a lie. And if you've ever met anyone and heard their whole story, I know amazing people who had really hard childhoods, whether they were born into challenging circumstances. I have a really good friend who was in that Mastermind blogging group who. Her mom passed away when she was a baby, so she grew up without a mom. So that's not like saying she can't ever be an amazing person because she didn't have a mom. So if. If we give that allowance to children whose moms, by whatever cause, are no longer with us or no longer able to raise them, we. We say, okay, well, someone else can step in, an aunt can step in, A grandma can step in, an amazing new stepmother or. Or another person, or even if those people aren't great. To say that that child can't then grow into an amazing adult doesn't make sense because we've met these people, these people who have great testimonies of overcoming hard circumstances or challenging obstacles. And it's like, okay, if we allow that when things are hard, why do we, as moms who are go getter moms who are doing all the things and doing them all right, not give ourself that same allowance? Like, you cannot be fully responsible for the good and the bad.

[Jenny Ertz]

Right? Both.

[Heather McFadyen]

Both. And even if you do it quote, unquote, all right, some things could go wrong for your child because life. And so then are you going to take the full blame when those things go wrong? Because, bless your heart, that's going to be rough. And I've walked through. I've. I've had that even. I mean, you get to teenage years, whoo. If your messaging is who this child is is fully because of my work and they make any choice, that is disappointing. The amount of guilt, shame, condemnation you put on yourself, it can be real rough. So, yeah, the question. It was actually, how responsible am I? Townsend and Cloud. Have you ever heard of them?

[Jenny Ertz]

Yep.

[Heather McFadyen]

They wrote the Boundaries book. Back before boundaries were a thing. They. They wrote the book on boundaries. And I was. I mean, name drop. I was actually at a dinner with Townsend and was writing this book and I brought this topic up like, well.

[Jenny Ertz]

Wait, wait, back up. Why. Why were you at a dinner with Townsend?

[Heather McFadyen]

So I'M part of a life team.

[Jenny Ertz]

You do so many cool things.

[Heather McFadyen]

I'm part of a live team.

[Jenny Ertz]

What's a life team?

[Heather McFadyen]

Okay. Yeah. So in my right where you belong book, at the very end, I talk about this life team because it was like God gave me a replacement. My dad passed away in 2017, and God kind of said, I see your loss, but I'm going to give you not only replace your dad, but, like, multiply that. And I'm part of a group with four men who are in their 70s, 60s, and 70s, two women who are counselors, like, amazing counselors. And one of those women has four grown boys. So we meet once a month.

[Jenny Ertz]

My gosh. And you got four boys.

[Heather McFadyen]

I know.

[Jenny Ertz]

How cool is that?

[Heather McFadyen]

It's. I'm telling you, it's like, oh, here's a blessing upon blessing. We meet once a month, and we sit around and we talk about our feelings.

[Jenny Ertz]

Wait, and Townsend is in the group.

[Heather McFadyen]

So Townsend, once a quarter would come and he would lead us through what he calls a didactic, which is like a teaching.

[Jenny Ertz]

Why is it called a didactic?

[Heather McFadyen]

I don't know why he calls it that. Like a little didactic. I don't know.

[Jenny Ertz]

That's what we should tell people, what we're doing right now. Yeah, this is it. Welcome to the didactic.

[Heather McFadyen]

Welcome to your didactic. I can't even say it sometimes. Anyway, so we had spent the day with him, and then at the end of the day, we were having dinner, and I'm telling him about the book and about this idea, like, this lie, that I'm fully responsible for my child's outcome. And he tells the story of being speaking at an event, and a woman asked that question. And so he and Cloud decided they'd play a little game. And they had whiteboard. They each had a whiteboard. They were going to stand on opposite ends of the stage. They were going to write on their right board whiteboard. Based on their anecdotal experience, counseling lots and lots of people and families, what percentage they felt like parents were responsible for how their children turn out. And they both turn around the whiteboards, and it was 30%. 30%. So we ma. Like, it's not like I would ever. I'm in mom ministry. I would never tell a mom. Nothing you do has any relevance. Do whatever you want, because we know that's not true. Moms do have big impact. Go to one counseling session and they'll be like, tell me about your mother. You know, we are a voice in our children's Head. We give identity statements to our kids when they're little. We tell, you know, we're helping them get routines and skills and build character. I mean, we matter probably the culture doesn't. We matter in the wrong way sometimes to culture, like if a kid messes up in a big way, we blame the mom. But like all of these functioning adults out in the world, we don't say I'm so thankful for their moms. But 30%. The trick is you don't know what 30% just like in marketing. So you just do your best. And honestly, I was at an event on Monday night and it was with Jamie Winship. Have you heard of him?

[Jenny Ertz]

Uhuh. Tell me more.

[Heather McFadyen]

Jamie Winship wrote a book called Living Fearless. It's a guy, he was a Metro city cop in D.C. he ends up being part, I think of the CIA. He ends up in Iraq. He's done all this peacemaking work and I'm telling you, the most fascinating person who is like really interacting with humanity and really in high conflict situations and bringing peace. And he talks about raising his kids and he talks about helping people get free. And it was just such a good reminder of. He says, you don't get your identity from a vocation. So you can't say I am a podcaster. That's not your identity. That's something you do. Podcast is one thing I do. I think it's true for roles we have. Your identity is not that you're a mom. That's a role that you, you know, like I said, you're a mom for your whole life. That's a role. But like it's not your whole identity.

[Jenny Ertz]

Right.

[Heather McFadyen]

When we find our whole identity in it is when we get tripped up when things happen with our kids. What if your dad is I'm a good mom. Oh gosh, shoot, dang was good mom. That can vary culture to culture, social group to social group, what a good mom is, you know, so really finding your identity outside of those things is the work that he does. And so I think some of this responsibility intertwined with our identity misplaced identity is what feels so heavy and high pressured and why the surgeon general gives said parenting is dangerous to your health.

[Unknown]

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[Jenny Ertz]

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[Alyssa Blask Campbell]

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[Heather McFadyen]

I don't think parenting is dangerous to your health. I think modern day parenting in the current state where we have a like Jamie pointed this out, we have a scarcity mindset. There's only so many spots in college, there's only spots on the team, there's only so many jobs, so I have to do everything to set my child up so they get a spot, so they get a place, so they are equal, successful. And if you ever look up Jamie's stuff, look up his book, Living Fearlessly. It's published by Revelle. Same shout out to the same publisher. So if you want to get him on, you could. All of this is also to set your kids free so that they can live in their identities, which is the coolest part. It's this kingdom building. Because what I want, Jenny, is I want your kids to be walking in their giftedness, doing what they were put on this planet to do, and their full identity that they've been given from before you said a word to them so that our world as a whole functions the best it can. So we are one big team. So kingdom come. Like, I want all of these children functioning to the fullness of their true identity for our society as a whole. But mommy wars happen when I have fear. And a lot of this is coming from thoughts I have and thoughts I just learned from Jamie. So, again, full shout out to Jamie Winship. Mommy wars happen when I have fear. Whether it's fear of rejection because I'm not being a good enough mom or my kid just hit your kid, or they're not gonna be good enough for that school or for that thing. Fear, rejection. Fear of failure. Fear, like whatever bar we've put of what failure is for parenting. So all those fears are in me. So I have this internal conflict. My identity is totally enmeshed with motherhood. I am a mom. I am only valuable if I do this well, that kind of language. And I have this scarcity mindset that there's only so many spots and there's only so much good that's out there for my kids, and there's never going to be enough. You are my enemy now.

[Jenny Ertz]

Oh, it's true.

[Heather McFadyen]

You are now the enemy to my goal of good things for my kids because I need good things for my kids so that I can be good. Now let's untangle all that and get back to the fear. What if we acknowledged our fears? What if we let go of those fears? What if we decided, okay, I'm afraid of rejection. I am afraid of failure. Where is this line of failure coming from? What if I could get in a healthy community of moms who, like, don't perpetuate that fear? And, you know, you know the group. You know, the group that brings grace and love, and your kids can pick their nose in front of them when they're little or eat a cheery off the ground. I mean, my favorite story is a mom friend who was like, I knew this mom was my friend when some Cheerios fell out of my diaper bag. And instead of, like, looking at me with disgust, she reached down, picked one up, and ate it. Like, that's your mom friend. Okay, that's the one. The bar is lower. And then you do some identity work. Like, you can be in the role of motherhood. And you could say, I am a peacemaker. I am a caregiver. I am someone who connects ideas. I am like, what is something? And this goes to my right where you belong book. What is something that has been true of me since I was a child, since I had, you know, when I was in elementary school, when I was in high school. Like, look at the line of connection and find what identity statements are. Have been true of you as a person outside of motherhood, outside of being a wife, or if you're walking through divorce or even sometimes those can become our identity statements. I am a single mom. You know, like, can we drop those vocation and roles as our identity? And can we pick up some truths about who we are? So then I am now free. I can be around Eugenie, and we can be for each other's kids because I am not afraid that there's not enough goodness for my kids or that I'm going to fail because I'm now walking in the truth of I'm a connector of ideas. What ideas do you want me to connect with you? And then you're coming in with whatever yours. And then we can be for each other. There's no longer conflict, and the world benefits, right?

[Jenny Ertz]

Yeah.

[Heather McFadyen]

And then you're not isolated in motherhood, and then you're not surgeon general. Parenting is hazardous to your health.

[Jenny Ertz]

Where do you even come up with a list of options? I'm a connector of ideas. I mean, that's. That's really unique.

[Heather McFadyen]

I think that if you get his book, really, this is just me. Don't get my book. Go get his book. What's so cool about his book is every chapter he has. Yeah, I. He's real good about toting the line with faith, non faith, but he really is a man of faith. And I'm a big fan of inner healing prayer. He's a big fan of inner healing prayer. We're big fans of listening to the Lord. And I believe you're a creative being. I believe there is a creator, and I believe that Creator put something in you, and it's unique. I know all four of my boys. Sure. Boys are boys. Sure, sure, sure. But they are four individuals who are so vastly unique from each other and who have vastly different identities. I have this in. I can't remember if it's in. Don't, Mama. I. I don't know which book it's in, but one of my boys was real distraught, and I was learning about listening prayer, and he was saying he's dumb or some negative identity statement. Anytime there's an I am, I'm dumb, I'm an idiot. I'm like, that does not sound like God's voice. That doesn't sound like what I believe to be true about you. Would you like to pray and hear what God thinks about you? So I just said a little prayer like, lord, we know that you made say his name. We know that you put things in him that are special to him, and we'd love to hear what do you believe about? And we just sat there. Lord, bring to mind. And I hear. And you know, you've got your inner hearing voice. You know you've got it because you're listening to other things all the time that say, I'm a loser. I'm never going to get this right. My kids are going to prison. Like, those are. You're hearing those in your head and no one's saying them. So you know what I'm talking about. So I'm hearing, and this is how you know it's God's voice and not your own. Is God is not going to condemn. There might be conviction every once in a while, but there's no condemning. There's no words that don't sound. And especially if you do read the Bible, like, it's gonna sound like the Bible. It's gonna sound familiar. And I heard that he's a caretaker. And I said it out loud. And before I could even finish, like, get to the last er, his. His eyes pop open and he goes. That's what I heard, too. It's one spirit.

[Jenny Ertz]

Wow. It's powerful.

[Heather McFadyen]

We believe in one spirit, right?

[Jenny Ertz]

Yeah. I mean, we definitely. People ask often, right? Especially if you're getting interviewed. Tell us about yourself. And you would say, I'm a mom or I'm a podcaster or whatever the things are. That's a really interesting way to look at it because it takes out the competition because it's a unique thing and there's so many different types of things that we could be. So that's great. Okay, so you Want to read don't mom alone. But you also want to read Jamie Winship. The moral of story living Fearless.

[Heather McFadyen]

What's really cool too is just his stories about raising his boys like one of them. I'm just going to tell a story. One of his boys said, I found my identity. And he was walking through really hard middle school situation, lots of bullying, just trying to endure the situation. He's like, I found my identity. And he's like, great, what is it? I'm a skateboarder for Jesus. And he's like, okay. And then that can sound like a vocation, right? But that was what this little middle school boy heard. And. And then Jamie knew that they were just being assigned to Iraq. And he was like, oh, how do I tell this boy who's finally found something, who's in this really hard season that not going to be a lot of skateboarding and war torn, war torn Iraq. And he said, you know, I've been offered this. I kind of have to take it. Let's just pray anyway. They both pray and he's like, you know what I decided, dad, is if God gave me this identity, he, I can be this even in Iraq. Okay. So they go to Iraq. He only gets like an hour a day that he can be outside even. And it's like military zone is where they live. So he's out skateboarding. Well, this giant tank pulls up next to him. Huge. Like as big as an apartment building. And they pop open the lid and this blonde haired guy gets out who's from California while they're in Iraq. And he's like, she gets out, where are you from? Who? Your parents shows them some skateboarding tricks. They said, hey, we patrol this park right here between this time and this time. If you want to come and skateboard every day, we'll watch out for you and we'll guard it for you. Ends up doing that. Ends up starting a skateboarding club in Iraq. Ends up getting skateboard companies to donate skateboards. I mean, and the story goes on from there. Like, unbelievable things. That's like, what if we let go of the fear?

[Jenny Ertz]

Yeah.

[Heather McFadyen]

One, taking your kids Iraq. Well, that most of us wouldn't say no to that. But let go of the fear and then allow our kids to walk in their identity instead of what we want them to be.

[Jenny Ertz]

Yeah, there's no scarcity there.

[Heather McFadyen]

No scarcity.

[Jenny Ertz]

No one's competing. No one's competing for that role.

[Heather McFadyen]

And what's success like? What's success ultimately? Is it to make a lot of money? Is it to have a lot of influence and really what we deem as important places. Like, anyway.

[Jenny Ertz]

Wow. What a story. What a story. Okay, so you're sending us down the rabbit hole to other books, which I love that. I love it.

[Heather McFadyen]

I like, again, there's scarcity. Like, I get it, though.

[Jenny Ertz]

I get it. Because sometimes when you're like, okay, this really has impacted me. Like, this is making my mind span, and I'm just talking, and I'm a.

[Heather McFadyen]

Connector of ideas, I can't. Yeah, you can't keep it.

[Jenny Ertz]

Yeah. Yeah, that's good. All right, so Don't Mom Alone. Don't Mom Alone. I mean, that's a big title, and it's the title of your podcast, too. Chess. 500 episodes. Been around since 2000. More. Way more than five. Probably 500 episodes since 2013. Don't mom alone. Loneliness is a big deal with moms. It's tricky. I was at a birthday party this summer, and I didn't know anybody. I was like, oh, this is so awkward. And it just is.

[Heather McFadyen]

And you just said you were at a birthday party. And that's the key. Loneliness has nothing to do with being alone. Yes, it's the feeling of being alone. No one here knows me. No one here actually knows what's going on. I don't feel connected to anyone in this place. So that's where even my own motivation for blogging or writing in the first place started was I had lots of people around me, but they didn't really know me because I had the false belief that I had to keep it all looking good on the outside. If you really knew me or you knew what was hard for me in motherhood, you would reject me. And so I got to keep. I got to keep the narrative real clean. Got to keep you at a distance. Got to keep that wall up. So then I'm not actually known. So then I feel alone, despite the people around me. So in that situation of a birthday party, it's not necessarily that you're believing this lie, that you're rejected, but, like, in order to move into a place where you are connected and you are known, you have to take some risk, and you have to be authentic and vulnerable. You know, you might walk up to someone, you might throw out a vulnerability nugget is what I call it, and it's not received, and you can't take a purse.

[Jenny Ertz]

What's an example?

[Heather McFadyen]

Okay, what's an example? I mean, so you're at the party, and maybe, like, your kid does something, and you comment on, like, Man, I don't. I never know how to handle sibling conflict. If a mom said that to you, that's a vulnerability nugget. And if your response is, oh, well, I know how to do this. Okay, duly noted. Moving on. You're not my person. It's not a rejection of me. We're just not a match. I don't eat at every single restaurant. There are some restaurants that are not.

[Jenny Ertz]

A match for me, but they're match for somebody else. That's what I always wonder. I'm like, who buys this ice cream flavor? But they carry it. So you're like, somebody does.

[Heather McFadyen]

Somebody does. Not my flavor. So that's fine. It's not personal. Don't waste. Don't try to make it fit and then, like, change what you say. Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, no, I tried that. And then I. You know, y'all have been in these conversations. So my sentence I say is, it's worth the risk of rejection to pursue authentic, vulnerable connection when it rhymes and it works.

[Jenny Ertz]

How about one more time? I like that.

[Heather McFadyen]

It's worth the risk of rejection to pursue vulnerable, authentic connection. Because when you actually feel it, like my life team, I can say the things. I can say the true feelings. And when we're processing in that group, we are for each other. I know all those people in those. That room, know me, love me. I can say anything, and it won't allow them. They won't think differently of me. Getting to that point is worth it. It's worth it because a connected person, like, I could be having a hard day, and then I just hold my chest and say, okay, but I am loved, and I'm known by this person, this person, this person. So even though they're not physically with me, I have felt connection in the presence of actual people. Dr. Kurt Thompson is really good on that. He came on my show and he talked about disrupting shame through connection. Like how community can help you deal with shame narratives. Like, something's wrong with me. This is only hard because something's wrong with me. Why can't every other mom figure this out? But I can't figure this out.

[Jenny Ertz]

I liked this. Well, I'm assuming that you pronounce it assumicide suicide.

[Heather McFadyen]

Did I say that right?

[Jenny Ertz]

Well, okay. So I thought this was actually really interesting. In dealing with conflict, you say it came from a Brene Brown Netflix special, A sumicide.

[Heather McFadyen]

Oh, right.

[Jenny Ertz]

Because it's probably, like, we incorrectly. It says we incorrectly assume other people's motives, and we get frustrated. We end up hurting and eventually, we can destroy our relationship when we incorrectly assume. So I thought I put this in the section of loneliness because inevitably there's different conflicts that can come up with friendships or in your marriage. And you wrote use the phrase. The story I'm telling myself is, Yeah, I thought that was really powerful.

[Heather McFadyen]

Yeah, that's from Brene Brown. That is like, let's say husband. Because if you. If you do have a parenting partner, how tragic that your parenting alone. And yet I have done it. So to align with my spouse. We go on walks every Saturday, and there have been times when we're just not. We're like a little bit off, a little bit off. And so we've used that phrase. The story I'm telling myself is, you're disappointed in me because I'm spending too much money on X, Y, and Z. He's like, oh, the story I'm telling myself is, I wish I could provide more for our family so that that wouldn't be an issue. It's like we were both feeling shame about our behaviors or the situation, and we were making the other person mad at us when they weren't. We're assuming that. And then it's like, oh, oh, well, now we can see the problem over here, and we're on the same side of it, and we're just like working together on it instead of against each other and thinking the other one's thinking something they're not.

[Jenny Ertz]

I thought that was really a powerful thing. So if you're interested in reading more about loneliness, when you feel awkward and unimportant, you're feeling left out, you're feeling like an outsider, that type of thing. You're trying to figure out how you can connect better with your community, you're going to find that in Dope Mom Alone. Let's say one more topic, because I think it's a big one, sort of similar vein, which is that when we have all this pressure and we're feeling like we're responsible, we often are not resting. And so you talk in this book, Don't Mom Alone, about Seven types of Rest, which I'd never heard that before. Heather. Seven Types of Rest. Never heard that. That's pretty powerful to know about. Why do we need to know about that?

[Heather McFadyen]

Again, this is one of those things. When I was looking at writing the book, I thought, I've done all these episodes where I've interviewed all these amazing people. But if I met a mom who was weary and discouraged to go tell her, go listen to these, you know, 500 episodes that's overwhelming. So instead I was like, how about we create a book that's more manageable? And then within each chapter, I might mention different guests and then wisdom that I would receive from them on that topic. And one was this. I think it's Dr. Sandra. Sandra Dalton.

[Jenny Ertz]

That's right.

[Heather McFadyen]

So she talked about the seven types of rest, and it was like. I mean, I can't remember the seven types.

[Jenny Ertz]

I can tell you because I haven't written down.

[Heather McFadyen]

Okay, physical.

[Jenny Ertz]

I mean, I would have just thought, there's one type of rest.

[Heather McFadyen]

Right. It's like, I'm tired. I'm tired. Which is not a feeling, by the way. It's not on the feeling wheel. Tired. Oh, it's a physical state, but it's not an emotion.

[Jenny Ertz]

Interesting.

[Heather McFadyen]

Okay.

[Jenny Ertz]

Seven types of rest. Physical, mental, spiritual, emotional, social, sensory, and creative.

[Heather McFadyen]

Yeah. And I just interviewed Jess Connelly, and she wrote Tired of Being Tired.

[Jenny Ertz]

That's a good title.

[Heather McFadyen]

And she was talking about that, too. And I think even the. The mental rest, I think, goes back to that responsibility. If I am. We talk about the mental load for moms, it's like, what am I holding on to? Especially. Let's talk about logistics. The logistics of having. I have four kids in four schools, Right. Bless me if I am holding all those logistics.

[Jenny Ertz]

But you could be making your own Saran Wrap.

[Heather McFadyen]

I mean, I don't think she made it. I think she bought it, but it was not. I could be holding all those logistics as mine that I am fully responsible for. But what would it look like if I released a little bit of that and kind of invited some other people into our story and we kind of carried that a little bit more? That's like, you know, part of that physical rest. But mentally, we could do that. When I think it's all up to me, what if I hand over some of that worry to God or to, you know, or some good therapy work to realize I am. This is not my job. This is not my responsibility. I think Jamie Winship said responsibility is not even in the Bible. I think it's not even a thing. Anyway, back to Jamie. It's the work we need to do to let go of mentally what we are owning that is not ours to own. And so that's rest. That can be rest. Spiritual rest kind of coincides with that, too. Like, do I need to pray harder for this kid that's gone awry? Is it up to me? The more I pray, the more likely he's going to come back? I don't think that's good theology. Like, yes, pray, but like, to think it's up to your prayers to change things is so much burden and so much weight. So, Yeah, I think Dr. Dalton has a test you can take on which type you need.

[Jenny Ertz]

I wonder what type most people need.

[Heather McFadyen]

I don't think there's a mug or if they need.

[Jenny Ertz]

If they need all seven. A lot of different times. Because I was thinking, okay, sensory rest. So I. I think if you've got a lot of little kids and you're carrying them and they're nursing or that type of thing, that would be a situation.

[Heather McFadyen]

Or you're wired like me. I'm very hypersensitive, so I'm going to. I'm going to need sensory rest, maybe more than somebody else. So if I don't acknowledge that that is a need, I will feel shame that I need it.

[Jenny Ertz]

Yes. Because I think, like, when you get to the end of the day and people use the phrase touched out, then you're like, well, a good mom fine with this. Right? A good mom would be fine with carrying the baby all day, that type of thing. And so I think it's freeing to know that you might need some sensory rest.

[Heather McFadyen]

100.

[Jenny Ertz]

Yeah, creative rest of is another one. You know, I think in the world of social media and in the world of content creation, I think you can't. You know, I was, you know, you're trying to write a book. Like, we can't. You can't. Like, it's not like a building, a desk where you're like, I'll just put this piece with that piece. You have to have something in you, you know, and you have to be in the right state a little bit, I think. So a creative rest.

[Heather McFadyen]

I think it's knowing yourself again, going back to, like, who. What kind of a person are you? Not just like, what kind of a mom? But like, what kind of human are you? And I know for me, I really feel very restful, rested. If I get a chance to, like, work on an embroidery project or crochet or do something that is with my hands, making it just feeds me in a way that getting my nails done doesn't.

[Jenny Ertz]

Interesting. And that is creative rest while you're being creative. I was thinking about taking a rest from it, but that's an interesting piece.

[Heather McFadyen]

I think it's rest by doing something creative. Because sometimes in our mind we think, so the word Shabbat or Sabbath is to cease, and it's really to cease striving. It's the message that we, the Israelites were given that, okay, your sustenance is not dependent on your work. Your sustenance, your survival is dependent on your Lord. And so one day you're just not going to work the fields, and one day you're not going to do the things that you normally do to make you think that it's all up to you. So it's for you personally, Jenny, what in your week are you believing? If I stop this, it's all going to hit the fan. Like, it is all dependent on you. And this goes back to the parenting thing. If I stop this, my kids aren't going to have what they need. This is gonna, like, everything's gonna go awry. So you are believing a lie that you are the sustainer.

[Jenny Ertz]

And so you want to cease from driving, but you don't want to cease from those things that really light you up.

[Heather McFadyen]

I think in our mind, we think it means just laying somewhere on a couch is Sabbath or laying on the couch is rest. Well, that is if physical rest is what you need. But like, if where you're striving is mentally or where you're striving is spiritually, or where you're striving is maybe creatively and maybe you're creating for work and you need to just like do embroidery, take a pivot and just do something that no one may ever see. I don't know, like, it's for you individually, where's your striving and where do you need to cease for and be intentional about it? I think that's the key about the rest is like not expecting someone else to decide for you. Hey, looks like, looks like you need a little break and they're gonna plan it out. You have to choose that rest for yourself and you have to playing it out. And, and I think our creator said you need to do this on a regular basis. Once a week is a good rhythm.

[Jenny Ertz]

I, like Justin McRoberts, wrote a book called, I don't know, maybe Sacred Time. It might be that, but he, he wrote a lot about Sabbath in there, and so did you in this book. So just lots to think about, about taking that day off you wrote. It doesn't have to look like the traditional Jewish experience. I may choose to cease from checking social media for 24 hours. The key is to choose what will help you set apart that day or certain period of time from the other days. It's good for you. And then you do a gathering with other families for a dinner.

[Heather McFadyen]

Yeah, we've, we've done that with our small Group once a month, you do cool things.

[Jenny Ertz]

The thing that struck me the most in this conversation, because I read your book, you've got your podcast, and if you go on your website and I'm gonna. I'm gonna say it. Heather.

[Heather McFadyen]

Yeah.

[Jenny Ertz]

Mcfadian.com.

[Heather McFadyen]

Sure.

[Jenny Ertz]

And there we go. If you go on your website and you look at the podcast section, you're like, all these different topics. Gratitude and healing and hospitality and marriage. I mean, there's like a hundred topics. You could, you know, pick and listen to the different podcasts. This is interesting. In actually having a conversation with you, you do a lot of really neat things, like your life team and your blogging mastermind group. That gets my mind spinning. Like, well, what's out? I didn't know that stuff was out there. Really, you know, good for you.

[Heather McFadyen]

You create it.

[Jenny Ertz]

Yeah.

[Heather McFadyen]

You create the thing you want and you get connected with people.

[Jenny Ertz]

Yeah. And you even wrote about that in this book. You wrote, are there moms in your community you've seen but been hesitant to connect with? What creative way can you reach out and start that relationship? Which I thought was a great question. Well, what could I do? Could I invite him to the park? Could I do. Or we're going to have a game night or whatever that is that's compelling. And so you think, you know, that that person maybe has more of a chance to come. So. What an awesome book. Don't mom alone. Growing the relationships you need to be the mom you want to be. And also right where you belong is another book. And you've got your two podcasts, don't mom alone, as well as Sidetracked, which is a Christian women comedy show, is perfect. I love that. Create the thing that people want and maybe is not really even out there. So that's fantastic. And people can check those out. Heather. We always end our show with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside?

[Heather McFadyen]

Oh, my gosh. This is such a good question, Jenny, because when I think of rest, I think of being outside. To me, rest is outside. We. I grew up on five acres in Indiana, and I was homeschooled. So I played in the woods for hours, hours and hours. And I have a great memory of a friend and I. We had basically created. It was like our house. It was on the creek bed, and we would literally sweep the rocks. Like, who's sweeping what now? I don't want to sweep my own house, but I would sweep back then. And we were by the creek, and all of a sudden, down the creek comes this tennis ball container, and we're like, what trash? What's happening? So we get it out of the creek. There is a penny taped to the lid. We open it up, and there's a doll inside. I think it was like a strawberry shortcake doll. And we named her Penny. I'm just telling you, that was the best. But, yeah, I would hike through with my dad. Yeah, I. I just.

[Jenny Ertz]

An odd story.

[Heather McFadyen]

Such an odd story. Such an odd story. Who did that up the creek? Somebody did. I don't know. I don't know. But we would make a playground out of the vines and create different events like it was the Olympics. I mean, my dad and I, we would walk and he would integrate Bible stories and talk to me, and that just like it took the Bible and made it real. And that, to me is like true discipleship. So, yeah. Oh, my gosh, I love the woods.

[Jenny Ertz]

And you even wrote about that in the book. A dreamy childhood to have all the space to explore, learn, and experience God's creation. And a father who took the time to enjoy it with me. Heather, what an honor. What an honor. One of the original podcasters is here.

[Heather McFadyen]

The og it's so, so cool.

[Jenny Ertz]

I so appreciate it. Love your book and thank you for coming on.

[Heather McFadyen]

Thanks for having me. Super fun.