1KHO 418: The Pathway to Liking Our Kids, Not Just Loving Them | Sally Clarkson and Nathan Clarkson, Uniquely You

Summary

The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast: Episode 1KHO 418 Summary

Title: The Pathway to Liking Our Kids, Not Just Loving Them | Sally Clarkson and Nathan Clarkson, Uniquely You
Host: Jenny Yurch
Guests: Sally Clarkson and Nathan Clarkson
Release Date: January 22, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast, host Jenny Yurch welcomes Sally and Nathan Clarkson, co-authors of the insightful book Uniquely You. Jenny expresses her admiration for the Clarkson family, noting, “I’m like a super fan of your whole family” (01:34), setting a warm and engaging tone for the conversation.

The Clarkson Family and Their Books

Sally and Nathan delve into the origins of their books, starting with Different and moving to Uniquely You. Sally shares the emotional impact their first book had on readers: “The beginning of the letters that I get say, I cried all the way through... there’s so many other people in the world that live your life” (02:41). Nathan discusses their initial expectations versus the overwhelming positive response, including appearing on the Today Show and receiving thousands of supportive letters (02:57).

Embracing Uniqueness in Children

Central to their discussion is the belief that every child is unique, created with distinct talents and personalities by God. Nathan recounts a pivotal moment with a childhood book, Noah's Ark, which sparked his realization that “maybe God actually loves different” and that uniqueness is part of His divine design (05:15). This revelation forms the foundation of their parenting philosophy and the message of their book.

Overcoming Standardized Testing

Sally and Nathan critique the conventional education system, particularly standardized testing. Sally remarks, “the American public school systems are failing and the test scores are getting lower and lower” (08:32), advocating for an individualized approach to education. Nathan echoes this sentiment, sharing his own experiences of feeling “dumb” in a traditional classroom setting and how his mother's recognition of his creativity (“...she saw the imagination that God had given me”) (12:03) helped him embrace his talents.

Homeschooling and Individual Education

Sally elaborates on their homeschooling journey, emphasizing the importance of nurturing each child's strengths and interests. She explains, “we’re going to cultivate each child's strengths individually, and I’m not going to require them to do the same cookie cutter education” (08:37). This tailored approach allowed each child to excel in their unique interests, from Nathan's passion for storytelling to his siblings’ diverse pursuits.

Nathan's Journey: From Different Kid to Creative Adult

Nathan shares his transformation from a child who struggled with learning disabilities to a successful creative professional. Reflecting on his childhood, he states, “What my parents did of guiding, loving, discipling... was a proactive thing that sought a better future” (50:44). This nurturing environment empowered him to pursue his dreams without feeling the need to conform to societal expectations.

The Overthinkers Podcast

Nathan introduces his podcast, The Overthinkers, where he explores big questions with experts from various fields. He explains, “every week we ask a big question... encouraging kids to think deeply and ask big questions is a really, really cool thing” (33:22). This venture allows him to channel his inquisitive nature productively, reflecting his lifelong passion for deep thinking and storytelling.

Building Life-Giving Families

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on creating life-giving family relationships. Nathan emphasizes the importance of not just accepting but celebrating each family member’s uniqueness. He shares, “there needs to be that last aspect, which is celebration... we’re going to celebrate each other for our differences” (41:10). This approach fosters a supportive and loving family environment where each child feels valued and empowered.

Discipline: Heartfelt Discipline vs. Spanking

Sally discusses their approach to discipline, contrasting it with traditional methods like spanking. She explains that their method, detailed in Clay Clarkson’s book Heartfelt Discipline, focuses on “reaching their heart because God values the heart above all else” (56:54). Nathan adds, “spanking is a reactive thing” and highlights how their proactive, loving discipline has helped him develop into a responsible adult (58:21). This philosophy underscores the importance of guiding children with love and understanding rather than fear and punishment.

Legacy and Impact

Towards the end of the episode, Jenny reflects on the profound impact of the Clarkson family’s approach to parenting and education. She notes, “These beautiful humans... you stepped out in faith, and you did something different, and you were not celebrated for it” (63:35). Nathan and Sally express their gratitude for being part of the podcast and share heartfelt thanks, reinforcing the episode's theme of love, faith, and celebrating each child's unique journey.

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Notable Quotes

• Sally Clarkson (02:41): “I cried all the way through... there’s so many other people in the world that live your life.”
• Nathan Clarkson (05:15): “Maybe God actually loves different... part of His divine design.”
• Sally Clarkson (08:37): “We’re going to cultivate each child's strengths individually, and I’m not going to require them to do the same cookie cutter education.”
• Nathan Clarkson (12:03): “She saw the imagination that God had given me.”
• Nathan Clarkson (33:22): “Encouraging kids to think deeply and ask big questions is a really, really cool thing.”
• Nathan Clarkson (41:10): “We’re going to celebrate each other for our differences.”
• Sally Clarkson (56:54): “Reaching their heart because God values the heart above all else.”
• Nathan Clarkson (58:21): “Spanking is a reactive thing... our proactive, loving discipline has helped me develop into a responsible adult.”

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Conclusion

This episode of The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast offers a profound exploration of parenting philosophies centered around embracing and celebrating each child's uniqueness. Through the Clarkson family's experiences and insights, listeners gain valuable perspectives on individualized education, heartfelt discipline, and the lasting impact of a supportive family environment. Their journey underscores the importance of nurturing each child’s distinct gifts, fostering deep familial bonds, and living by faith to empower children to pursue their unique stories.

Transcript

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[Jenny Yurch]

Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Yurch. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and would you know it, Nathan Clarkson is here with his mom, Sally. Welcome to you both.

[Nathan Clarkson]

I like my name going before. I can get used to that.

[Sally Clarkson]

Yeah, There you go.

[Jenny Yurch]

What an honor. I'm like such a. I'm like a super fan of your whole family. In fact, this is three out of four of the Clarkson kids.

[Sally Clarkson]

I know.

[Jenny Yurch]

I only haven't ever talked to Joel. Well, and I've never talked to Clay either. But I did just order one of his books that you talked about in your new book, Uniquely youy. So I'm getting. I'm like, I'm going through. And I'm like, every single person. I'm like, I love them.

[Nathan Clarkson]

You're working your way through the members. So I'm the first. I'm the first Clarkson boy you've talked to. This is good.

[Jenny Yurch]

Yeah, it is. It is. So I'm just really honored. And I just read this new book that you wrote together, which is this. Is it the second? Because there was another one called different and then this is Sort of a continuation on that theme that the two of you wrote together. And this is about raising unique kids. All of our kids are unique. God made them unique. And this one is called Uniquely you. So could you just give us a little bit of the background? You write this book called different, and you're not expecting. You say, one of the things that you said was, we were expecting a couple people to like it. And then you start to get all of this feedback.

[Sally Clarkson]

Well, and the beginning of the letters that I get say, I cried all the way through. Because I think that a lot of times when you have special issues in your life, like all of the Clarksons, you don't realize that there's so many other people in the world that live your life.

[Nathan Clarkson]

Well, I remember coming to my mom because I. I don't know, I felt, you know, I didn't know that I wanted to write a book about my mental illness and my learning disabilities. You know, that's kind of a really personal thing. But I kind of felt this little impression in my heart, and I said, mom, I think we should write this book just from your perspective, my perspective, and just kind of give. Get over that hump of bravery. I think it's good to share your story. And I said, we should do it. And so we did it. And I think, you know, when we were doing it, we kind of thought, oh, this will be kind of a niche story. We have such a very particular story. Hopefully this will be encouraging to a few people. And I think we were just like, really, really shocked when we were on the Today show. And then we hit a best sellers list and then just got thousands and thousands of letters. And all of a sudden it occurred to us, I think this might be a more universal issue than we had previously thought about what it's like either seeing yourself and being a different kid or raising a different kid. And I think that was kind of what started us on the first book. And I think the second book is we just wanted to continue this conversation about how every kid is unique.

[Sally Clarkson]

And I. As we were writing it, I thought I. I was the unique kid. I was Nathan in many ways. But there are many more stories I could tell. But I realized as I look back on my life, I was always questioned, why are you doing this? And why are you that way? And. And I got in trouble in school because I talked a lot, and now I get paid to talk, you know. But anyway, it was good for us to write it because we both sympathized. Nathan and I are very much Alike. And we both sympathize with each other. And it was a real cathartic thing. Every mother should write a book with their child.

[Jenny Yurch]

What a thing. So you write different. It goes tremendously well. And what you said was, well, this is sort of about our specific situation. We could actually take this and generalize it a little bit for all of the unique qualities that different children have. And that was the purpose of this book. It's called Uniquely you. I love it. I love it. I love it. It. I have 13 pages of notes. It is a wonderful book for any parent because all of our children are unique. They're uniquely created by God. And, Nathan, you tell this story. I love this part that you. There was this book when you're six years old. It's this picture book of all of God's creation. And it really spoke to you. And you said, you even go home sometimes and you still pull that book out. It's tattered. Can you tell us what that book meant to you?

[Nathan Clarkson]

Yeah. You know, when you are a, quote, different kid, and I had a lot of learning disabilities and mental illness diagnoses, and when you are a different kid, you can often feel very alone and even more than just alone. And the separation you feel from the other kids around you, from the world around you, don't quite fit in it. You can also feel wrong. You can feel that somehow you were made incorrectly, that God had made a mistake.

[Sally Clarkson]

It's my fault.

[Nathan Clarkson]

And. Yeah. And it's somehow it's my fault. And then no matter what I do or what I try or how much I, you know, effort I give it, I'm not going to be right. And I remember seeing this book, and it was. It's called. No, it's literally just called Noah's Ark, but it's done by this amazingly talented artist. I don't even know where we just always had in our house. I know where it's from.

[Sally Clarkson]

Oh, I got each of the kids one. And the first one was this big. I don't know.

[Nathan Clarkson]

Huge.

[Sally Clarkson]

Yeah, like two and a half feet big. And then the next ones were, you know, smaller. But. Yeah.

[Nathan Clarkson]

Yeah, you can imagine so little me, you know, I'm. I'm a large man now, but little Nathan was just pouring over these pictures, feeling alone, feeling wrong. But then as. As I'm looking, and it's all about God's creation and it's all these different animals and the different ways that nature is unique. I'm seeing the diversity of God's creativity, really. And I kind of Started just that inkling of a thought in my head going, oh, maybe God actually loves different. Maybe God actually created everything uniquely outside the box because that's a value of his. And maybe all these differences that I'm feeling about myself is actually. They're not accidents. They're not wrong. They're actually part of God's intended design to make me his creation uniquely. And there's a beauty in that. And you can. And he. You can find his image in my uniquenesses.

[Jenny Yurch]

What a beautiful truth. I mean, he could have make. All. All trees are oak trees, right?

[Nathan Clarkson]

Right.

[Jenny Yurch]

All apples are red delicious, which are not delicious. You know, I mean, it could have been. And he didn't do it that way. And so you really have this beautiful truth woven throughout the whole thing. Sally, one of the things you said was because this book is broken up into nine chapters, and each chapter is, Sally, has a part and then Nathan part. Gosh, it's so good. One of the things that you had said in your part, Sally, was if every person who is formed has a unique DNA that translates to different sizes and shapes and eye colors and smiles and hairlines, then perhaps God meant for our personalities to be different by design, too. Perhaps our personalities give scope to the full expression of the creative God and give glory and praise to his beautiful design. And you tell your story, too, Sally. It's woven through where, you know, people are telling you stop to stop bouncing your knee, and then it comes full circle.

[Nathan Clarkson]

I can say she's bouncing her knee currently.

[Sally Clarkson]

I never don't bounce my knee.

[Jenny Yurch]

And you felt like you were too much. And then you become a mother. It's pretty impressive, though, Sally, that you are intuitive enough to become a mother and to say, okay, that. That's a piece that, well, doesn't line up with scripture. And also, I don't want to be like that. I want to praise my kids for their uniqueness. And one of the things that you talk about, Nathan, and several times it comes up, several times is the concept of standardized tests, which have become more and more and more a part of schooling. Even if you homeschool, they might be a part of schooling. So can you talk about how standardized testing doesn't really fit with the concept of uniquely made people.

[Sally Clarkson]

Do you want me to go, or Nathan, you.

[Nathan Clarkson]

You go first, Mom. Then I'll give my thoughts on it. But you were the one who educated me, so I'm curious to hear your thoughts.

[Sally Clarkson]

So, Jenny, you're very much out of the box like I am. And people always say how did you decide not to use curriculum? How did you decide just to use the best authors and musicians and. And best. You know, we. We did a lot of things. And the more I understood how I have two introverts and two extroverts and they both. That all of them approach life differently. Some of them have to talk all the time. Some of them have to be drawn out to talk. And as I look back, I thought, I think the American in general, many public school systems are failing and the test scores are getting lower and lower and. And people are having less entrepreneurship. And um. And so I just thought, you know, I'm just going to take a risk and I'm going to cultivate each child's strengths individually, and I'm not going to require them to do the same cookie cutter education. I'm going to expose them to great thoughts. I'm going to mentor them, I'm going to disciple them, I'm going to give them different opportunities. But I believe that everyone made in the image of God, which is all my children have infinite capacity to express themselves, to live a different story, to have a different passion. And so I pretty much started out saying, all of you four, you have a story to tell that no one else in the world will tell. And I love who you are. I love what you represent. And so I really tried my hardest to free them up, to not live by someone else's standard or false expectations, but to say, there is a holiness, a sacredness to your beauty that God has given to you. And I cannot wait to see how he's going to work in your life, in this world. And by God's grace, it worked. I mean, all the kids kind of have a passion for their own story. And they didn't have to grow up in a home where they were compared to everyone else or where their test scores or where their whatever scores were compared to people. They all got to excel at what they did. When Nathan was a little boy, he would put together restaurants. We had this front porch in one of our homes, and he would put together a restaurant. He'd put a towel over his arm and say, hello, can I help you? He was also the man of costumes and plays. And he was always the person that all these kids went toward. They just loved him. He was the Pied Piper. And it was really fun for me to see when I didn't care about what their accomplishments were, quote, unquote, to see the unique beauty and brilliance in each of my children. But I had to approach them in different ways.

[Nathan Clarkson]

Even when you think about the term standardized testing, you know, I do think conformity is easier. I think having things that are all the same and all alike, that you can interact with in the same manner over and over again, that's a lot easier. And I think that having a vast array of unique kids and humans to deal with actually becomes much more difficult because you can't treat all of them the same, you can't interact with all of them the same, and you also can't educate them all the same. And so I think standardized testing is something that is an attempt to make the world easier, but it's not an attempt to understand the unique humanity that exists within all of the minds of every kid you're going to have in every classroom. And what's funny to me is I think about the classrooms that I was in as a kid would be with a co op or the local school. I would remember feeling kind of dumb there. To be completely honest, I felt really dumb. And I would look around the classroom and I'd see all the other kids. And I remember particularly a math class, by the way, I'm still terrible at math, so that's never changed.

[Sally Clarkson]

Still makes money, he still pays his taxes.

[Nathan Clarkson]

And so I remember being in this class and looking around and all the other kids were getting it. Or at least. At least it looked like they were getting it. And they were. You know, they would copy the board and they were getting the answers. And I looked down at my paper and I didn't. I was not understanding the concept, but I did look down on my paper and I saw this. What I had been working on for the past hours. The teacher had been talking, which was a really. A drawing of a fantasy story that I had in my head. There were dragons, there were horses, there were knights. No math answers, but. But that drawing was there. And I remember thinking, I think I must be really dumb. And then I go home and all of a sudden there's this kind of switch in which. And my mom would look at my math homework and see the drawing. She wouldn't see the answer that I didn't give. Instead, she saw the imagination that God had given me that was poured out on that page and say, oh my gosh, you're a genius. And so I was trying to reconcile, I'm dumb over here in this class that's kind of forcing me into this very particular mold. And then I go home and my mom is telling me I'm a genius. What's going on? And now, obviously, I'm older and have more context to see. Oh, there was something there. There was an intelligence there that God had given me me that I was using. Perhaps it was in the wrong place. Perhaps I should actually learn to listen to the teacher. But my mom could see the genius of her kid and his imagination that would eventually go into making movies and playing pretend and using his creativity. She saw the genius back then. She could see further than I could. But right then in that class, I felt dumb. So oftentimes it's a context switch that we need and say, okay, this child might feel not enough here, but if they're in a different context, you're going to see their amazingly vast intelligence. But it's about a context which, a vision switch that I think you were able to see very early on. Yeah. And so standardized testing, when it comes to things like that, it is constraining. It's easier to judge kids that way, but it's not better and it's not more beautiful.

[Sally Clarkson]

Now I want to make a point too. When I home educated my children, they each had to learn how to read. And we went through very simple grammar books. We didn't go through hundreds of pages of diagramming. You know, they all learned what a noun and a direct object and all that was. I'll see little by little what I mean is. Or, And I, I noticed that if I scratched Nathan's back, two plus two often equaled four. You know, it was a way of settling him down because his brain was always shooting and firing just like mine was. So we, we weren't a non. We had our areas where we grew in. I would, I would let everybody proceed at their own pace. Some were years ahead, some were, you know, just did things bit by bit by bit. So it wasn't without training and goals and expectation in good ways. But it was for each child to progress according to their strengths, their drives, their personality, and to always give them areas they could excel in and where I could see their genius in. So I don't know if that makes sense or not.

[Jenny Yurch]

But yeah, I want to read what one of this parts that Nathan wrote because when you talk about it makes it. Conformity is easier. It's easier for the adults. It does. It makes the world of the adults easier at the expense of the child.

[Sally Clarkson]

And also they might feel frustrated. Why isn't my child conforming?

[Jenny Yurch]

Yeah, sure, sure. You wrote there are ways that are short sighted and cast the title of failure over kids who don't fall into the rigid bounds we've created in our modern educational system. That expects, forces and shoves kids into a mold of standardized testing that has been shown over and over again to not work when predicting future success. There's not even a point to it. There's a point to it in terms of data collecting and all of that, but not a point to it in terms of where the kid is going to go. And this is, I mean, this was such a good book for me to read, Nathan, because you're not going to even believe this. Our oldest is 16 and a half. We've done the home educating thing the whole time with shaky knees, reading books like, you know, that you've written in your mom's written and standing on the faith of others, standing on the experience of others, standing on the shoulders of others who have come before and saying that seems true, Standing on faith in God and the unique parts of our kids and all of that. But it was shaky knees. And our oldest is going to be 17 this year, and he wants to go into film.

[Nathan Clarkson]

Nice.

[Jenny Yurch]

And he's wanted to go into film for several years. And so I'm picking up your book and I'm thinking, because to me now, the, the one next to him, that the next child, she wants to be a personal trainer. That's easy. There's no problem. She's going to take her test to become a certified personal trainer. It's, you know, it costs some money. She's been studying. There's no fuzziness there. But that I want to direct films. And it's very specific. He's. He's doing this internship where they go and they film commercials, different places, like for churches, and little bumper videos. He's like, it's a good experience. But he's like, I don't want to do that. I want to direct films. I want to write stories. I want to write scripts. And that is so fuzzy. And you're like, you know, as a parent. But you talked about in this book, uniquely you, how your parents, Nathan, so Sally and Clay took you and did these different things. We're going to take you to this conference. We're going to take you to this magic thing in an attempt to sort of sew into that but not really knowing the outcome.

[Nathan Clarkson]

Yeah.

[Jenny Yurch]

So can you talk about what that meant to you, Nathan? And. Well, can you just tell me what I should be expecting here?

[Nathan Clarkson]

Yeah, this is, you know, we actually have a chapter in the book that's because we have all these different chapters on all different ways that kids can be unique. Personality, discipline, education, all that. But there was one that was I really wanted to make sure that we put in there, which is dreams, that every kid is going to have a unique dream. And even if you want to conceptualize this calling by God, and it's not going to be something necessarily that you would have planned or that you would have chosen, because they are their own unique creation by God with their own story to tell in the world. And so I wanted to write this chapter because as I look at my siblings and I look around and going, oh, my gosh, we all have completely different trajectories of passions. We're all using our skills and our abilities in entirely different ways, but they're all beautiful and they're all good. And this can be, I imagine, really, really scary. I remember when I came downstairs in the house we're sitting in currently, I came downstairs and I said, mom, Dad, I don't think I want to go to college. I think I want to go to acting school. And I can imagine a million other households would have been like, oh, no, that's not going to happen. But my parents. It wasn't just this snap decision. My parents are going, oh, yeah, of course. That's fine. It was one that they had watched me over my entire life. When I said acting school, they said, you know, he has imagination, he has drive, he loves stories. And so when I said that, it made sense to them, and it made sense for the story that they had watched and researched and been the student of for so many years. And so, you know, I have been an actor now in Hollywood and New York for the past, I guess, 15, 16 years. And it's been the greatest joy of my life to get to tell and be a part of beautiful stories, because stories matter. But it took my parents, not only just in that moment, but my entire life, preparing me, loving me, seeing the skills and passions that I was intrinsically made with. And. And when it came to that time, saying, this makes sense and we're going to support and love him into this story. And there were a lot of, let's say, clouds, you know, hiccups.

[Sally Clarkson]

Yeah.

[Nathan Clarkson]

What? Hiccups, Clouds, but things you couldn't see, you know, but through their support, one step of the way, because we had that connection, we had that relationship that had been built over all those years, and they had done so much work to support me over all those years and allowing me to, like, you know, like you said, I went to magic conferences. And that was just part of me realizing I love performing and I love story and I love grandness. And so all these Things made sense as I moved into the area of the, quote, dreams and calling of my life. And I moved into it with their support throughout my entire life. So that's something that I think is so valuable as I look, I could have ended up in a place where I felt that I should have been rather than the place that I feel that God actually, and where he.

[Sally Clarkson]

He might have failed and felt worse about himself. And I have to say, a magic conference isn't something ethereal or, you know, magic conferences. It was a Christian magicians who were some of the finest magicians in the whole world who used their abilities to be able to communicate the gospel. And another thing I will say, we knew that discipleship was the most important thing in our children's lives. In other words, we knew that we were sending them into a hostile, chaotic, very secular world. And so when we were preparing them to own their own stories, we didn't know how bad it would be or what would be out there. But we tried to say, you know, you're the only person who can own your life. You're the only person who can live a great story. And we tried to be realistic and prepare them for some of the temptations or some of the issues they would have and the Lord provided in so many ways. But we stayed close, we were on the phone a lot. So it's going to be different with every child. I don't know that Nathan is a particularly strong kind of character oriented, you know, very confident person and it would have been terrible to hold him back. But every child is different. So I don't want everybody to think I'm just going to send all my children to Hollywood and to Manhattan right now. What would you say about that?

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[Nathan Clarkson]

The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist whether you're running, swimming or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet Black aluminum compared to previous generations. IPhone XS are later required charge time and actual results will vary. Oh, I mean I think, I think like we've been talking about, I think that every kid has a unique story to tell and it's going to be in different places with different skills and different callings. And I think that one of the, again, the biggest, one of the biggest conduits to my success is having the continued lifeline support and wisdom that my parents had built and fostered over so many years that when I was out on my own, I had a, a lifetime behind me of relationship that I could always count on to guide me through whatever twists and turns that my story threw at me. And I think it's something that it, you can't, you can't wait form the relationship now with your kids so that when you throw them into the world that image throwing them but you know, send them into the world that there's already this strong, strong muscle of relationship that have been built so no matter where they go that there's something they can always fall back on that will offer them wisdom and guidance that has been built over their entire childhood in the home.

[Jenny Yurch]

So one of the things you had written, Nathan, was unlike many professions, my dreams didn't have a formula I could follow for success, which is a big deal. So some of them are pretty easy. You want to be a teacher, you want to be a nurse, you know, there's a formula that you follow. So Sally, then I guess there's two things. It's like you had to have the faith that this, it almost feels random. I'm picking this one thing. And then you wrote Nathan, my parents decided not to let fear guide their decisions. Instead they live by faith. So Sally, like how did you know I'm going to pick this one thing, I'm going to pick, I'm going to invest. And you talk about like this was an investment of time and money. You've got four kids, you're homeschooling and you say, well I'm going to invest in this or I'm going to invest in this conference or I'm going to send him to this thing to me I would maybe doubt like well maybe that's not the thing. And what if that doesn't work and.

[Sally Clarkson]

It'S okay to doubt and doubt might be useful at some points.

[Jenny Yurch]

Right? So how, how did you know what to do?

[Sally Clarkson]

Do you know the funny thing? I mean, I am definitely a scripture oriented, faith oriented person, but I can remember what literally when Nathan was 7 years old. And he was the little kid, you know, I mean, by that he was the third kid. So the kids were all doing these. They were acting out these. These little stories. And I was just letting Nathan do it. He wasn't old enough to be able to do this, but he was going to get to do the thing that all the other kids did, which was to act out a person in history. And when he acted it out at 7 years old, all the parents came up to me and said, oh, my gosh, he's going to be an actor when he grows up. Literally when he was seven years old. Do you remember that? Yeah, I think it was Audie Murphy or somebody like that.

[Nathan Clarkson]

Yeah.

[Sally Clarkson]

So I tucked these things in my heart. I know that's funny, as Mary did, but I gathered things along the way. And when Nathan would do these, he and his friend did birthday parties that. Where they would use the gospel to help people. And whenever Nathan stood up in front of the stage to share a story or whatever at our conferences, he was so capable. And so when I prayed about it, who sends their child to New York City, you know, when they're 19 years old, to go to the New York Film Academy? But I kind of always had a feeling that God wanted us to trust him. And I thought, you know, if something happens, I will be with him in that place. I will. I will go the distance. But it had been a lifelong watching him. He loved stories. He loved Superman. He said, I love heroes. I want to be a Superman in my world where he comes and helps people and saves the world. And so there was just a part of me that thought, you know, I'm scared to death and yet. And so we found this Christian conference for him to go to where he actually got a scholarship to New York Film Academy, you know, so where he was getting some good grounding and good input from people. But then he had to go and fight his battles on his own. And we had raised our children their whole lives with the idea that you have a story to tell, God will be with you, trust him and go out there and take the world by storm, by faith. And so when it came to that place, and you have to use reason and you have to see God open doors, but I can't imagine where you would be if you. If he hadn't done that, if he hadn't pursued that, because it's just been amazing to me to watch him do exceedingly more than I could even imagine. And he's very responsible and hard working. He's just really I think a lot of it was just a journey of faith and fear and prayer and on my knees and hope.

[Nathan Clarkson]

But also, it wasn't just a split second decision.

[Sally Clarkson]

No.

[Nathan Clarkson]

All right, good, go. It was a lifetime of investment of you building into me and so. And. And building that trust. So it was a preparation for, I don't know, it's 17, 18 years. And then. So it was a lot of work that you put into discipleship. So that by the time I was 17, saying, I'm going to go do this, there was a trust that had been built there. It wasn't out of nowhere, but there was a trust that we've seen him be faithful over these, and we've discipled him and been with him and formed a relationship with him and trained him, so that by the time that I was kind of entering that stage, it was. There's a certain amount of trust of, okay, this is his. Both his. His gifts are leading him here, and we can trust that he can do this. And so it was a mutual kind of thing that happened.

[Sally Clarkson]

So it was amazing to watch. But also, we really believed with all of our heart that God created each of us to manifest his strength and glory and beauty and light and love in a dark world. We'd been telling them that their whole lives. How could we then say, someday you'll be able to do something great? Because each of our kids pushed the boundaries on what we had supposed that they wanted to do. And they were all. It was always expensive, and it was always somewhere far, far away. But I feel like each of them still, to this day, believe that they were created by God to have an impact on this world for his kingdom. And we have had to support that and send them out. And it amazes me, amazes me to see how they've lived beyond my expectations.

[Jenny Yurch]

I love that chapter on dreams. It's so good. And really, it ties into your story, Sally, because you said you dreamed of living a life that mattered, and you were not supported or celebrated after the fact either. I actually just read this book. Someone else had recommended it, and I was annoyed that I was reading it, and then it got good at the end. But Steve Martin wrote a. Oh, really? His own autobiography. It was kind of a slow one. And then at the very, very end, it actually got really good. And he talked about how. Because you're kind of like, well, what would it look otherwise? And he goes into performing. Same. You know, same thing. He's into performing and comedy, but it's. He wants to be a performer and his dad just did not support it and he wrote articles against it and it was just a really sad thing. And then it said on his deathbed, the dad said, you did everything I wanted to do.

[Sally Clarkson]

Oh man.

[Jenny Yurch]

And then Steve Martin said, I did it for you.

[Sally Clarkson]

And you're like, oh, wow, what a great ending. I don't need to read the book now.

[Jenny Yurch]

Oh, that's like when it goes awry, right? And you talk about, I mean, Nathan, like some of the things you said in here I thought are so life changing for a parent. Like you wrote, it's natural to want to temper our children's expectations so they aren't crushed by an inevitable disappointments. But it turns out that encouraging them to dream big will have positive results. And then you, you use this phrase, crafting a dream without restraint. You wrote, I mean, this is so good. We fear and so we unintentionally cause pain and regret as our kids become adults. And I just like this. Your parents trusted by faith that investing in your dreams would help you discover your story. And that's kind of it, right? You invest however that looks. You're investing in the dreams. So tell us, Nathan, you have so much going on. You're like a bestselling author. You've got a new movie coming out in February. It's a western. I, we watched the Trail Taylor. It just looks fantastic. And your wife is in it. So that's a cool thing. You've got your own podcast. Tell us all of this investment. Where has it landed you?

[Nathan Clarkson]

Yeah, it was. Landed me in a really crazy place of doing about a thousand things all the time. But as you look back when I was an ADHD kid and I had a million ideas going all the time, I say, oh, that actually plays into my life now. So I'll mention a few of the. A thousand things. But one of the things I've always loved doing is thinking deeply of, and that's got me in trouble many, many times of asking too many questions to literally every teacher I have. But now I get to be in a podcast and the podcast is called the Overthinkers, where every week we ask a big question, just like I did as a kid. And we just talk about it. We get to talk about it with experts from around the world. And it's so cool to see all those questions as a kid. Now go into my profession as a podcaster and I get to have a podcast called the Overthinkers where I get to actually just talk ad nauseam about things that are interesting to Me and I don't get in trouble. So that's one of the things called the overthinkers.

[Jenny Yurch]

Give us an example. Give us an example of one of the topics.

[Nathan Clarkson]

Oh, yeah. Oh, goodness, you can put me on the spot. So, you know, we have theological topics like does hell in heaven exist? Or what's the afterlife look like? We have sociological experts on to come and say, why do people act a particular way? We have artistic ones like what kind of movies should we watch? We have moral ones like, are we allowed to do this or that? And so every question is just one that we always want to ask, questions that we notice, be it on Twitter or just around the world that people are asking. And so we can sit there with, with an expert, sometimes by ourselves and just kind of go over them and go deeply into them because we think that's a valuable thing. I think encouraging kids to think deeply and ask big questions is a really, really cool thing. And so I get to do it as a grown up. And I'm so excited to be able to.

[Jenny Yurch]

I mean, the topics are really cool. One of them is, is AI dangerous? Is it?

[Nathan Clarkson]

Well, you'll have to listen to find out.

[Jenny Yurch]

You probably can't answer it. It's a 54 minute show.

[Sally Clarkson]

Yeah. You know, I, I want to say something here. I hope you don't mind me saying it, but I think that sometimes people misuse adhd. I sometimes think because I am that also think that it's a sign of brilliance, you know. We sure hope so. Yeah, I know too. But anyway, I just feel like for parents who worry, I think sometimes children who have. Are out of the box have really special parts of their, of their mind, their body, their heart, their soul that are exceptional and that are made for the story that they're supposed to live into.

[Jenny Yurch]

Oh, so good. Okay, so the Overthinkers podcast, tell us about the movie that's coming out in February.

[Sally Clarkson]

Yes.

[Nathan Clarkson]

Yeah. Well, as you know and as your, as your kid knows, stories are important and they, and they change how we think and feel and understand the world around us. And so I think, you know, Jesus told stories to change the world, and so I love that I get a chance to tell stories. And so the latest and newest story I'm telling is a. It's. It's a classic one. I want to make a classic, fun adventure movie that has romance and suspense, suspense and intrigue, and it's a romance western. And the really cool part is I get to play opposite my beautiful wife Kelia. And it's called Bright sky and it comes out in February, streaming and dvd. And I'm just so excited for people to see it. I think we need more just good fun classic stories of redemption and hope and joy. And so that's what I want to do in making this one. So I'm excited for people to see that as well.

[Jenny Yurch]

All right, what else do you want to tell us about? Because people can find you at Nathan Clarkson squarespace.com I'll put the link in the show notes and there's a lot of links there. But you have these movies, you're also a best selling author.

[Nathan Clarkson]

Yes, I, I like I said anything to have to do with stories or words, I love doing. So, you know, I have a few books out on a variety of topics. I, I've written on a book called Good Man. I've written a book called the Way of Kings. I have done a few things, but the most recently I wrote a book called Finding God in Hollywood that has a little bit of my story of being a Christian kid pursuing a life as an actor. So I had Jesus in my heart and stars in my eyes. But that's a book I wrote recently that I really, really love.

[Jenny Yurch]

Wow. It worked, Sally. It worked. There's the sentence in here where you said Nathan and I'm like, I'm feeling this because we're right there. You wrote, I was 18 and looking at the rest of my life trying to figure out exactly what I should do. All of my friends had gone off to college and I was left alone in a small town wondering what my next step was. And I think that there is a lot of that graduation panic. I think that there is something about that that sometimes causes parents to who want to homeschool to not because they think, well, I'm going to get to that point and the bottom's going to drop out. We're not going to know what to do. But you figured it out.

[Nathan Clarkson]

One step at a time.

[Jenny Yurch]

You figured it out. And here you are with all these best selling books and movies and podcasts and I mean this is really, it's really encouraging as good reminders. Parents need to read this stuff just to invest along the way. There was a story in here that I really related to and this is a story about you had a bad day, Nathan, as a teen, as a lot of teens do, just a really bad day. You know, the girl you liked didn't like you back. And it was a confluence of things. And you said you came home and you wrote, I looked around my room and in the few hours I'd been gone, it had been cleaned by my mom and had a fresh basket of laundry on the shelves, did my recent collection of action figures and books. And on the walls were posters, all of which my parents had given to me for Christmas. The gifts were surrounding me, and the way my family served me should have reminded me of how much I loved. But, you know, you're a teen, and so you're struggling, and then in comes your mom. She knocks on the door, and your mom enters, having seen me return home with my head hung low. And she entered with a paper plate full of warm chocolate chip cookies and said, I just want to spend time with my wonderful Nathan. And she asked me how I was. And I just thought, shoot, I need to do better.

[Sally Clarkson]

You're doing great. I think you're a great mama.

[Jenny Yurch]

You know, you have four kids. It's like, you know, and you worked. I mean, you guys have this whole ministry. It's been around for a long time. You've got four very unique kids with learning disabilities and different things that are going on. And you're trying to accommodate their love languages, and you're trying to accommodate their learning styles, and you're trying to accommodate the teenage angst. How did you find the margin for that, Sally? Or how did you do that?

[Sally Clarkson]

Do you know, a lot of people said, are you neurotic? You know, because they would. They would see me work really hard. But I just. I don't know. I. I so believed Jesus was kind of my model and my mentor. He washed feet and healed people and made food for people, and he was bigger than life. And I thought, how can I do any less? And so I fell in love with my children, and I thought, I only have a fourth of their life to give to them what they're going to need for their whole life, you know, because once your children leave, their. Most of their life is ahead of them. And I just loved them so much. I. I just. And I've written a lot about all this in all my books, but I wanted to give them life. I wanted to give life to their faith and life, to their pleasure and life, to their friendships and life, to their vision and life to their character and their virtue. And it was really fulfilling for me to gain this vision and then get to live it out. We made lots of mistakes. We were not perfect parents. But I think that the love of my children and the desire to please Jesus that I had fallen in love with kept me going one day at a time, one day at a Time, one day at a time. Put yourself in the company of good people, of Christ, of vision, and know that you have more capacity than you think. And that's what I learned. I didn't know I could do it, and I did it somehow.

[Jenny Yurch]

And here you are. You guys have close adult relationships, which, Nathan, you had written that, you know, you became aware, as you know, you've gotten older, that this is not necessarily all that common. Yeah, I don't think it's very common at all. You're like, I'm really grateful for it. And you talk about some different things in the book about building a life giving family, a family that has relationships that last through the entirety of life. So could you talk about maybe one or two of those? And I don't know. I mean, you wrote the book a while ago and it's just coming out and I don't know if you remember them. If you need me to, like, give.

[Nathan Clarkson]

You some clues, being the ADHD kid. Yes. Remind me what I wrote.

[Jenny Yurch]

Okay, so this is. There's five core components for building a life giving family. And this is one of the parts. Parts that you wrote, Nathan. Let's see. Maybe I'll just pick one. Okay. I like this because I think actually this is really tricky because there's a lot of competition, I think sometimes between siblings, especially because we are so unique and different. Unconditional acceptance and celebration of each member. This is one of the five core components. Tell us about how that played out.

[Nathan Clarkson]

I think one of the most meaningful things to a kid is because we talk a lot about acceptance, and that's the first part of that. But I didn't want to end with just unconditional acceptance because I think one of the things I felt often in my life is that even when people weren't mad at me, they're just tolerating me and they're just kind of accepting me. All right, well, I guess that's just what it is with him. And I think one of the most valuable things that if I hadn't have had it, would have been really, really difficult throughout my life is feeling my family not just accept me just as well. That's Nathan. He has his problems. We'll accept him. You know, it's almost kind of a. Yeah, a toleration. But rather, within my family, I was celebrated. And I think that is a. Is a real picture of how God looks at us. You know, I've struggled before. I think many people have. Is wondering if God likes me. But in reality, when you look through scripture, God doesn't just tolerate us. He celebrates us. He loves us. He. He dances with joy over us, you know, and so I think one of the things that was so valuable that my mom and my dad gave to us in our household was we do accept each other. That's kind of the first step. You know, you have to. You're not going to change your brother. You're not going to change your sister. They were made uniquely, and they might bug you and they might annoy you sometimes with their uniquenesses. And your uniquenesses are going to. Are going to rub up against each other in uncomfortable ways, but they're not changing. That's who God made them to be. And so there's that acceptance component. But then further than that, it was, all right, great, now you've accepted that they're different and they're unique. Now we're going to celebrate each other. Now we're going to celebrate that this person is an introvert and has a deep inner world that they recede to and that they're quiet and thoughtful and reflective. We're going to celebrate that this kid is excited and outside the box and shares his inner world with everyone around him through everything he says. We're going to celebrate that this person is creative and loves artsy things. We're going to celebrate that this one likes more minute details of particular things. We're going to celebrate look at all of each other, not as things that need to fit like a mold, like we talk about in the book, but rather, we're going to celebrate each other for our differences. And so I think acceptance is a wonderful thing, but I think for a kid to be fully, fully healthy and loved and have that confidence to walk in the rest of his life, there needs to be that last aspect, which is celebration. I think every kid, every person needs to feel that who they are is not just tolerated, but celebrated.

[Jenny Yurch]

Oh, so good. And what's so cool is that's modeled in the book. It comes up more than once where you're talking about each of the different. All of your siblings and both of you do it. And you wrote, we were not compared to each other. We were expected to be like each other. And then it goes through. It's like Joy is tenacious and a driven soul. And I really like her book, you are a Tree. So I'm going to plug that. It's a great book. I mean, really good. Dedicated to learning and teaching those around her the wonders of truth and beauty, all with a wink and pithy remark on her Podcast. You know, you talk about her and then you talk about Sarah. And I love her book, Reclaiming Quiet. Oh, what a book. That one just came out. I'll plug that one. You know, Joel is an absent minded professor who lives in the mental world of an artist. And you talk about how he had perfect pitch, you know, starting at a really young age. And he's composed all of these different things. So you see it throughout the book. It weaves through, you know that you're, you are celebrating the things that God gave them that they now are gifting to the world. And so what a beautiful reminder. Remember last year's amazing trip, that cute first birthday party, all those photos, all those memories can be freed from your phone with a Shutterfly photo book. Rediscover and share your favorite moments with those you love. You'll be amazed how easy it is to make a photo book with Shutterfly and enjoy it for years to come. Get 40% off orders over $29 with code [e-mail] and make something that means something.

[E]

When it comes to raising kids, there's so much to consider. Things like, what do we feed them? When do we feed them? How do they sleep? What does it look like to raise kind kids? How does their nervous system work? How do I keep myself calm? What are my triggers? There's so much that comes into play and we are distilling all of that information for you at Voices of your Village podcast where we bring experts in the field of early childhood and education and psychology and across the board so that you don't have to comb the Internet for information. You get to show up and hang out and have shame. Free judgment, free conversations and insights into what it looks like to raise kind, empathetic, emotionally intelligent humans. I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I have a master's degree in early childhood education. I'm a mom of two and I am walking this journey right alongside guide you doing this work. Come hang out with me at Voices of your village and we can dive into real conversations with actionable tips.

[Jenny Yurch]

I didn't even really consider. Like, we did the Myers Briggs test at school. So when I was growing up, we took it in high school and I never even considered, like, oh, you wrote like, my dad came with pencils and some papers and. And we did it as a family, changed our lives. What a great idea. Yeah, what a great idea. A lot of great practical ideas in this book too. Uniquely. You talk about family day, different traditions. You talk about being hospitable to all the teenage friends and having these different events at your house all the time. So I. I always love books that have practical ideas in them. It's wonderful. What a wonderful book. I'm so glad you wrote it. Oh, I like it so, so much. I got so many ideas from it and. And different things. Okay, here's. Here's a topic. Control. And what's interesting is I think that parents, a lot of parents, a lot of adults, struggle with control because you have control over your life up until a lot of times, up until you become a parent, and then you have no control. And you're sort of like, will I ever get back to where things were before? But I actually think that this is going to get harder because with kids and screens, they have even more control than ever before because they can control and manipulate all of those screens. One of the things that you talk about is letting the control go you wrote. Nathan, I understand that this could be overwhelming, especially for parents of multiple kids and when kids have distinctive education styles and needs. And Sally, you were talking about how we really want this sense of predictability, but you really get from your story that that didn't happen. There was no sense of predictability. Even now, there's no sense of predictability. Everyone is going off and doing their own thing. How do we let go of that need for control?

[Sally Clarkson]

You know, I don't know, but I. I felt very kind of criticized and judged when I would dream what I felt like God wanted me to do, you know, and I would think, lord, you know, this year, what was your Holy Spirit dream? Through my life, what can I do to be more effective, to be more loving, to. To write better books, to do whatever. And oftentimes I would receive from different people. So my family. Why do you think about these things? It's. It. Why can't you just be normal? And so I think that because I left home and went to communist Eastern Europe when I was very young, and. And then we went back and worked with refugees and. And then decided to home educate our children and. And not only that, you know, not to spank and not to. I mean, I could go on, but it was in me learning what it looked like to step out in faith in the areas where I was convicted and that I thought would be purposeful, that I realized that I couldn't keep my children from doing the same thing. I wanted them to see that there was a God who listened to their prayers, that there was a God who would never leave them or forsake them, that wherever they went God would be, but that they had one chance in life to live a unique story within the capacity they had. I would always say, I can't make you be a great person. I can't give you strong mental muscles or strong spiritual muscles, but you can decide to respond to all the input that we're giving to you, and you can become a strong person and a hero in your own life story. And I believe God has made you for great things, and I hope that you will decide to use all of your energy to live into your full capacity. So I think because I was criticized and held back a little bit, I thought, I really want to give my children the freedom in Christ to grow, to access different areas that they, that are important to them and to feel that we will be there every step of the way. I didn't want them to dread when they saw me because they thought I might control them. And I think a lot of parents have the illusion that they can control their children. If you haven't built in the right or a heart for truth and beauty and goodness and God and love and family, if you haven't done it before, they're 15, 16, 17, 18, it's not going to suddenly change when they go into the world. So that foundation of vision is as important as SAT scores.

[Nathan Clarkson]

Well, and as a kid, I gotta say, looking back on being a different kid and experiencing that, I think if someone had tried to control me, he didn't like control. I still don't love it. But I think if someone tried to control me, there would have been a moment at which I would have said, particularly when I found any sort of independence, what I would have wanted to cast it off and just run away from that control. Yeah. The more control someone tried to exert over me, the more I felt the need to get free.

[Sally Clarkson]

Me too. I felt the same way.

[Nathan Clarkson]

But I do want to add in. So control, like you said, mom, is an illusion. There is no way to control really ultimately another human being. In a sense, you can't control their soul or their mind. But there was training. And so your, your philosophy, inspiring them wasn't about controlling me or shove even control. The idea of it is still a formula. It's still trying to shove something into a safe formula that makes us feel safer. But rather, you saw you, you didn't seek to control me, you sought to, to guide me, to train me, to inspire, to walk with me. And so I think it's not, it's not just a hands off, let your kids do whatever you want, but it's not an oppressive. You're going to do exactly what I want, or else it's a. I see who you are. I'm not going to control the beauty and freedom of your mind, but I am going to help train that and guide that into the story that you're going to tell with your life.

[Jenny Yurch]

You see that then, Nathan, as something that helps you as an adult because, like, so for something that I struggle with is I had a very predictable childhood. And a very rhythmic one in that it was like we went to school and one day a week we had piano lessons and one day a week we went to youth group. And, you know, it was this sort of predictable thing. And then, I mean, I took a predictable path after K12 education as well. And here you are, you're in a pretty unpredictable type of career choice where you, like, you got this movie coming out. How's it gonna go? You know, you've got a book coming out. How's it gonna sell? You know, you've done a bunch of different. Like, you're doing commercials and you're in these different films and, you know, and I look on your. As you've got like an IMBD page. I mean, there are so many things going on. And I feel like a lot. For a lot of people, that would cause them a lot of inner stress because there's a lot of unknowns.

[Sally Clarkson]

I just have to say this. Every person is unique and every parent is unique, and every child that they have is unique. So we have one story, and all we want to do is to say to people, live by faith into the story that you've been given. And so they don't have to do Nathan's story, but they do need to walk by faith with the story they've been given. Does that make sense?

[Nathan Clarkson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jenny Yurch]

And I'm just wondering if that type of a childhood. Because I don't know. Right. I mean, I'm giving that sort of to our kids. It's different. It's definitely way less consistent and predictable than my childhood was. Do you feel like, Nathan, that that's helped you as an adult in these situations that are filled with unknowns?

[Sally Clarkson]

Yeah.

[Nathan Clarkson]

You know, one of the things. Because it is a life that doesn't have perfectly controllable circumstances and outcomes, like you said, and that can be really stressful. And as my mom was saying, that is something that my personality is particularly equipped to live with and handle. And so, you know, I think what you're getting to mom, is that there are some stories that we're not meant to live. You know, there's. You know, I. I was accepted into a college in England a long time ago, and it was a big honor. I'm like, oh, my gosh, maybe I should do this, because that's what everyone else does. But then I looked at kind of the schedule and how the life went and the requirements and the expectations, and I said, I don't think that's going to jive well with my personality. In fact, I think I will put myself back into a situation where I will feel wrong again. And so I had to choose. Even though that was a wonderful place for some of my siblings to go, it wasn't the place for me to go. And so my story, actually my personality, my makeup, my mind, God designed to exist within the particular kind of story I'm currently in, which is one that is a lot harder to find structure and expectation from. But I always kind of like to consider. I was just telling my mom that I love rhythms, and I particularly love this idea of jazz, right? Jazz has a rhythm, and it's going and it's. And there's a song that you can follow, but there's also an improv element to it where there's a new beat in there, and you kind of have to play with that. And then the bass will play something over there, and you'll say, oh, I'm gonna play the guitar this way. And so it's not that. It's just chaos. You know, I don't live in a. In a world of chaos. I think chaos is not. Not good for anyone. But jazz compared to classical music, which is structured, you know, every note, what's coming next? And so I live a life of jazz, where there's some improv, there is a beat, there are rhythms, but there's also some stuff thrown in there, and it's fun to play with and improv with it. But other people, their minds work like classical music, where they love knowing the exact next note and where the song is going. And both are good and both are beautiful, but we're each made for different.

[Jenny Yurch]

Kind of life that's so good. And I think a lot of people are made for that life that's entrepreneurial and a little less systematic. And so having a childhood that honors that can really set you up, I think, well, for adulthood. You brought up in where we're hitting the end of the time here, but you brought up. And I just want to hit it because there's a lot of moms that listen and a lot of Moms that have young kids. And I just feel like this isn't talked about enough. You didn't spank. Can you please just share? I think that's really good to talk about.

[Nathan Clarkson]

Yeah. Why didn't you spank me?

[Jenny Yurch]

I feel the same way. I don't think that the spare the rod, spoil the child means that. No, I think the rod is the shepherd's rod that leads and guides. So I just think that there's some misconceptions there. And since we're talking to parents. Here we go.

[Nathan Clarkson]

Yeah.

[Sally Clarkson]

Okay. Well, Clay, my husband, wrote a book that everyone should read called Heartfelt Discipline. Clay is a biblical scholar, and he. He went through scripture to really show how most of childhood acceptance, value love training. In Judaism and in the Old Testament and the New Testament, Jesus valued children. He took them into his arms and he said, woe to the one who causes the least of these to stumble. And 800, over 800 times in scripture, heart is mentioned. And so our goal was to reach their heart because God values the heart above all else. And so we train, train, train. We did the 24 family ways. Our children knew what was acceptable, what wasn't acceptable, and they had all the scripture memorized, but we just gave them the opportunity to grow at. At their own pace. A little by little, you take them in their arms when they're a baby. You say you may never use your hand to hit anyone. And then, and then you're talking to them. You're following them around, you're training them. You're showing what is beautiful. Oh, look at God must have been in a great mood when he painted that sunset today. And you're. You're working with a real, live human being who mostly cares to love you back. That's what children were made to do.

[Nathan Clarkson]

And the more there were boundaries and consequences, but they're out of love and relationship, right? Not out of anger and reaction.

[Sally Clarkson]

But it wasn't about us trying to control you by being angry or more, more forceful than you.

[Nathan Clarkson]

It was to love us, love you, and motivate.

[Sally Clarkson]

And, you know, I hope that you'll choose to obey mommy today, because if you don't, these are the consequences. If you choose to obey mommy, life will be great. If you choose to disobey, you're going to have consequences. You may have to write something out a hundred times or you may have to do the dishes every night this week or whatever. You know, are you not going to be able to play with your Legos or whatever? We taught our children that choices have consequences, and that they could choose righteousness or they could choose disobedience. And so we were constantly training, talking, sharing, teaching. And I think they all grew up knowing the foundations of truth and virtue, and they grew up loving it, thinking of it as something that was wise to pursue. And we entrusted them. Now you have to own your life. It's kind of like in Deuteronomy where God says, see that I have set before you today life and prosperity, or death and adversity. Choose life and prosperity so that you may live. So we would constantly follow scriptural mandates of giving them choices, showing them consequences, teaching them to love goodness. And it was a process of training, but it reached their hearts. And we are so close to them because we all were growing together in a love relationship with a God who was true.

[Nathan Clarkson]

Well, and just real quick, from a kid who. Who probably in any other family would have gotten a lot of spankings. You know, as I. As I look at the world today, I see that a lot of the chaos and frustration and anger that exists just in our culture causes people to live in a reactive state where everything. They're reacting to something all the time. But I. What I've noticed is that the people who are making differences, making the world a more beautiful place, healing, reaching, connecting, are the ones who. Who are proactive. And I think that spanking is a reactive. Hitting your kid is a reactive thing. It's out of anger. But what my parents did of guiding, loving, discipling, yes, with boundaries, yes with conflicts, consequences, but out of love was a proactive thing that sought a better future rather than just a reaction to the current moment.

[Sally Clarkson]

Heartfelt Discipline. That's what the name of the book is.

[Jenny Yurch]

Thanks for talking about it, because I. We've never talked about it on the show, but I think it's something that, especially when you first have kids, you're like, you know, if you were grown up, if you grew up and you were spanked, like, you just. You don't maybe know that there's other options. I want to read this just because I think someone might need to hear it. Through his research, my dad concluded that on both a psychological and spiritual level, spanking or hitting children wasn't only an inferior discipline method, but also that it was wrong. He found that harsh physical punishment ultimately teaches children that violence is an acceptable reaction to human mistakes. They should be fearful of their parents, and if they make a mistake, they should feel the need to hide it from the people who are designed to help and support them. The one size Fits all approach of spanking and reactivity have been shown to work against the goal of training a child. So just fantastic information here. You talk about don't totalize. Man, I don't even know if that's the word. A child's behavior in the moment. Like one of the things you said, Sally, was sometimes they're tired and sometimes they're in a different developmental state.

[Sally Clarkson]

Yeah, right.

[Jenny Yurch]

Yes. And sometimes they just need your attention. So you wrote, we worked hard not to ignore our children when they expressed a need, even when they were complaining. Often whining, complaining and crying are the only ways a young child knows to get the attention of a parent who habitually doesn't pay attention to them. So just so many things in here to overthink about consider. There's a wonderful, wonderful book. It's called Uniquely you. It is by Nathan Clarkson and his mother, Sally Clarkson. I'm so glad I read it. So, so glad. Tons of ideas that you're going to come away with. And I loved the family discussion question. So at the end of each chapter, there's five family discussion questions. You can do them around the dinner table. What are your biggest dreams? What are you naturally good at? Why do you think educating yourself is important? Just really good question to talk about with your children, with your family. What's your favorite way to be shown Love questions that relate with each of the different chapters. We always end our show. Sally's already done it. So, Nathan, it's you.

[Nathan Clarkson]

Oh, boy.

[Jenny Yurch]

What's a favorite childhood memory from your childhood? I guess that doesn't make sense. What's a favorite memory? What's a favorite memory from your childhood? That was outside.

[Nathan Clarkson]

Oh, that's great. Okay. So I could literally just talk about childhood memories outside for a whole nother hour. But the one I'm gonna have to mention. Oh, man. It's really. It's tough to, like, choose because I'm thinking of the waterfall hikes we used to do up in the mountains. But, you know, we lived down in Texas for many years. We live in this big, big lots of just nothing land behind us.

[Sally Clarkson]

200 acres.

[Nathan Clarkson]

Yeah, 200 acres. And so one of my favorite memories of being a kid was. I don't know, I. Again, I don't know how you just were okay doing this. Were you scared that we're gonna die in the snakes? But I had a head full of imagination. And I remember this is the time I was reading lots of books about the pioneers and the people conquering the elements. And so I went out, it was me and my brother and my sisters and friends. It's a whole different group of people every time, but every single day, I go out and I would build. I found these logs, and I built myself a log cabin. And apparently I've been told by someone who is still on the land that it is still standing. The cabin I built when I was about 8 years old is still standing today. So I'm very, very proud of that. But that's one of my. I have the host of favorite outside memories, but that's definitely one of my favorites.

[Jenny Yurch]

Nathan and Sally. What an honor. I'm just. Just going through the family here. What an honor. I was just thinking this is probably slightly inappropriate, but I was like. Like, in one moment of intimacy, four, technically, four moments of intimacy, you have created this legacy. These people that have put so much, so much out into the world. That is so inspiring. And, you know, isn't it just. It's bizarre, and sometimes it feels like it's so random. And yet, you know, here it is. Here it is. All of these wonderful kids. I tell you what, people love these podcasts. They send me messages and messages about your kids coming. You too, but your kids, you're all right. I mean, these beautiful humans. And you stepped out in faith, and you did something different, and you were not celebrated for it. But what does the Bible say? It says wisdom is proved right by her children. And decades have come and gone, and here they are, just really impacting in substantial, substantial ways in so many different ways. So thank you so much. What an honor. I love the book. It's called Uniquely you. Thank you for being here.

[Sally Clarkson]

Oh, we love you, too, Jenny. Thank you so much for having us. And thank you for having my other children. And I do love them a lot. And I love you a lot, too.