← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 424: Trusting Your Instincts in a Culture That Doesn’t | Caley Jones and Andrea Haskins, Radical Moms Union
00:59:51
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- [00:01]
Jenny Urich
Hello, friends. I have something so exciting to tell you. We are going on tour. The 1000 hours outside really very Crunchy tour kicks off this month. And this is not just any event. It's going to be a night full of laughter, ridiculousness, and probably some deep thoughts sprinkled in because we just can't help ourselves. Emily and Jason Morrow from really Very Crunchy are joining me and we're bringing a mix of comedy, encouragement and all the best crunchy and maybe not so crunchy stories your heart needs. There'll be music as well from Dustin and Sarah Lally, who are a husband and wife duo. A super talented husband and wife duo from this way home. This is your invitation to come hang out with us in real life. Tickets are available now. You can grab yours@1000hours outside.com tour before they're gone. They are super affordable and you can even get $5 off with the Code podcast. All right, let's get into today's episode.
- [00:58]
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- [01:25]
Jenny Urich
Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Urich. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside, and I have two guests from the Radical Moms Union, Andrea Haskins and Kayle Jenny Jones. Welcome.
- [01:37]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much, Jenny. First of all, I just want to say thank you for everything that you do for families and communities. And I have so many friends, you know, even in the Radical Moms Union that look to A Thousand Hours Outside to really motivate them and their families. So thank you. Thank you so much for having us. We're so excited.
- [01:58]
Jenny Urich
All right, let's kick it off by telling all the listeners how you two met. How do you know each other?
- [02:04]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
Yes. So it's pretty much the amazing part of social media, I guess, like the positive side to it. And it really goes back to a little bit of my story and how I got radicalized. That's something kind of what we talk about in the Radical Moms Union. So I really myself grew up in a small town, so I'm from Iowa originally, which is why I love listening to you and I love your accents there in Michigan. It makes Me feel at home. But I grew up in a really small town farming community, and, like, everyone around me was farmers. And I remember going to my best friend's dad. We would help him castrate pigs as a child and, like, hold the little pigs there as they cut their tails off and castrated them. Like, this was the way I grew up, you know, and, like, a moment that sticks out. We had, like, this greased pig contest, and they would grease. I was probably like, 9 or 10, and grease our hands up with what I'm assuming was supposed to be lard, but it was probably like Margarine in the 90s, you know, and they'd release all these piglets, and we'd run out. And if you were the first person to catch the piglet and run across the finish line, like, you won, I won.
- [03:20]
Jenny Urich
So who comes up with this? That's kind of a good idea, though.
- [03:24]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
I mean, it was great.
- [03:26]
Jenny Urich
The pig isn't greased. It's your hands that are greased.
- [03:28]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
Right? So it's really like my. My claim to fame in. In my hometown, so watch out for that. Anyway, so I grew up really close to nature and kind of, you know, a traditional childhood that I loved, and. But I wanted to get away from it, and so I felt like I really used culture in a certain way to guide me away from that. So I went to college, and I was going to save the world through fashion. So I majored in textiles and apparel and, you know, wanted to be a buyer, and it didn't work out that way. So I ended up getting a job in quality assurance and testing for a large women's retailer called Marisa's. You probably know that there in Michigan. But that really kind of subconsciously set a lot of the foundation for my motherhood. So I started reading all these test reports like formaldehyde and denim, and they couldn't be over a certain parts per million. And there was, you know, heavy metals testing and a lot of things that now we hear about in the consumer goods industry. So I was. No one wanted to do this job. Everyone thought it was boring. But I really, like, found, like, this niche. And so I started to become interested in just the business and the workings of big business, but also kind of seeing the downfalls of it and the sides of it that I didn't necessarily like or find honest, you know, And I did a lot in the baby industry. So, you know, this was 10 years ago, at least, but it was looking into all these BPAs and things like that and plastics. So this was actually before I had gotten pregnant myself, I really just started to question consumer goods industries and, and I was able to see that really it was just businesses putting profit above all else, right? So my husband and I had moved to Colorado, which completely, you know, changed my life in terms of my health. So I really got into the organic food industry. And like, I would read Bonnie Hari's food babe blog. Like, I listened to her podcast on your or listened to her episode on your podcast. And I remember running into her at Expo west like nine years ago. And I was just like, Bonnie, like, I love your blog. And she was like, you're kind of weird. But no, she wasn't. But I was just so excited to meet these people. And I finally found this, this group that was like, there's a lot of corruption here in this food industry. So I was like, I need to do this, you know, and telling all these people back in my hometown, like the farmlands, about all of this glyphosate that was being sprayed all over our food supply. And everyone was just like, okay, Kaylee, like, good luck. And simultaneously, you know, I was building my family at the time. And so I started to resist a lot of these things that were thrown at me by these corporations, you know, telling me life would be easier or you should buy this and put your baby in this robot snoo and then you'll get more sleep and you'll be able to work this job, you know, and be successful or, you know, come here to the hospital. You'll get your dream birth. And so I really was resisting those things, but still caught up in the culture, I guess you could say. But by the time I had my second baby, I was kind of like, you know what? I know this is a business. I know how business works. I've been there. I'm done. That was really around 2020 when the whole world was shifting too. So I kind of left the business that was in. I was like, I am going to be a stay at home mom. Like, I. I'm switching things up and I'm leaving the hospital. So I decided to have a home birth with my son in 2021. And I'll never forget just like being in my bedroom pulling him out of the water in this birth pool. And it was just seriously like a movie montage of like all of these things and these memories and everything I had res my childhood and how I really wanted to get back to that and get back to things that were instinctual to me. You know, I had these children for Love. And that was my place in life. That was where I was supposed to be, was with this baby, nursing him on demand. And honestly, right after I had him, I was like, I. I have to get into birth work. So I dove into birth work. You know, I put the motivation of money behind me, and I was just like, this is what I'm going to do. I'm going to help women. I'm going to attend home births. So I attended my first one, I think, when my son was six months old. And kind of in this process, I was scrolling on Instagram, social media, and came across Andrea talking about the daycare dilemma, which is what she called it. And she was just talking about, like, hey, it might be too late for a lot of us millennial moms, but, like, these younger women, like, you really need to think about whether or not you want to be away from your family, like, what's important to you? And I was like, who is this woman? And I need to be best friends with her and what is she up to? And she was like, hey, we're starting this radical moms union. So I was like, I'm in. And, you know, this was a couple years ago now, and I just really found this group of women that wasn't motivated by money, was motivated by their passion of keeping together mother and baby and keeping the mother baby dyad together and really speaking out against corporations that are trying to separate mothers and babies. So that's how Andrea and I met.
- [08:59]
Jenny Urich
Andrea, what was your path to being the mom who is posting online about daycare? Because that's a pretty bold spot to be in. Yeah, And I think, though, it's very admirable because for me, and I'll just say this really quick thing, I wish I would have had kids younger. We waited five years. It was a cultural message to wait five years before you had kids, go travel and these different things. And I wish that I wouldn't have listened to that. And I don't know where it came from. I don't know who spread it, but no one ever said, or at least I wasn't listening. But I never heard anyone say, here's another idea. And so it's a different topic. But sometimes, you know, it's hard to say the things that are hard for people to hear. But then at the same time, I think it's good for people to know what the options are and to know how they might feel if they choose something different. So what's your path there, Andrea?
- [09:55]
Andrea Haskins
Yeah, so I'm a mom of two in upstate New York. And I was, I used to be a teacher actually of middle school English. And when I first had my daughter, I, in 2016, I sent her to a babysitter. And then, and I loved breastfeeding. And I do feel like it was like the one thing that brought me to my motherhood experience, like, and let it unfold the way that it unfold. Like everything else I was trying to control. But breastfeeding was like this one thing that I could do that was like instinctual. So I just loved being like the person that all the friends asked about breastfeeding. So that's when we moved and I became a stay at home mom and I quit teaching. I decided to like formally get a certification to be a lactation counselor. And I started my account, which is Instinctual Mothering on Instagram. And I came into motherhood with lots of preconceived notions of how like everything is going to be controlled and we're going to be on a schedule and, and you know, we're going to, you know, just how it is, like with baby schedules and all the gadgets and stuff. But you soon realize that that' away and it makes it harder than it should be. And like I was the one Googling and going to mom's group and like posting, what do I do? What do I do? I was always kind to find out, like, what is the right way to do it? What is the, what's the right way? But there's really no right way. And that all that information drowned out like my instincts in motherhood and actually makes me have a lot of regret and the way I dealt with it. But you know, you can't go back. Which is why I created my account, because I want to help other moms not have that experience of trying to fight their instincts in terms of being with their baby, breastfeeding their baby, sleeping with their baby. So that's where I started talking about, you know, my own journey on Instagram. And I got in touch with Natasha, who is the co founder of Radical Moms Union. And she's like, let's start a substack. And we write about all these things, like these cultural, like you said, it's cultural. These cultural forces that are constantly telling us to go against our instincts. And we write about, you know, we wrote about the daycare thing, which, yeah, it's a really touchy subject. And we always say, like, we don't criticize moms, we criticize systems. And it really was a cultural system that brought all of us Millennials to following the right path. I think, like, that's what I was talking about in that TikTok that Kaylee found, where I was like, we were all told, you go to college happy, you get a job, you get married, you wait three years, you have a baby, you go back to work. Like, it was just like, this path. So that's what I was talking about in that. But, yeah, Radical Moms Union, we. We'd write about different motherhood tropes, like, you know, social norms and stuff, and all these sort of forces that prey upon women when they're at their most vulnerable. Sleep training culture, predatory formula marketing. It is hard to talk about stuff like that online, but then when you do that, you attract other women that resonate with you. And Kaylee was like, yeah, Kaylee was like, well, I. Andrea was saying these things out loud that I thought, but I couldn't say out loud. But I think when you're with other women of, like mind, it makes you able to, like, be a force and be powerful and make change. So, yeah, that's one thing about us, that we take it further. We don't just want to be, like, yelling into the void about these issues. We actually want to, like, make change.
- [13:48]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
Yeah. We're not just raising awareness. I think that's what's great about it.
- [13:52]
Jenny Urich
So you have a community that people can join in, and it meets online on a regular basis. Tell us about it.
- [13:59]
Andrea Haskins
Yeah, and it's not, like, a paid, like, thing. You don't have to pay to be in it. We're just a group of moms that's, you know, fighting against. We have campaigns, and currently we're working on a campaign against predatory formula marketing, which we can get into that, but we hold regular meetings that you can find out about, usually on Instagram or on our sub stack, our Radical Moms Union substack. But we'd love to talk about, like, the different campaigns that we're running.
- [14:29]
Jenny Urich
Yeah, I would love to hear about predatory formula marketing. I love the wording. You're talking about a company called Bobby. Is that the only one?
- [14:37]
Andrea Haskins
Yeah. Kaylee, do you want to talk about Bobby?
- [14:40]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
And yeah, we could talk about kind of the history, too, of. Of marketing, too. It's. It's not a new thing. And that's kind of what Andrea brought up. There's basically these same tropes that you hear that have been around since, you know, the early 1900s, and they're still saying the same things. And there used to be a lot less regulation, surprisingly, even Though we're still here talking about, you know, formula marketing. But I recently was listening to this story. It was about a pediatrician like in the 1930s and he would talk about how these formula companies would come in, like pharma reps and literally pay for week long vacations, you know, for these pediatricians and, and their wives. And all they had to do was watch a one hour formula video. So it's, it's funny how familiar, you know, these sorts of marketing technologies.
- [15:33]
Jenny Urich
Wow. It's like, what are they called? Timeshares. Timeshares, but like way bigger. Right, because you get a hundred dollars to listen to the times, the timeshare spiel, but a whole vacation. Yeah, that's way bigger.
- [15:46]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
Yeah. So I mean it's not hard to see where the whole doctor knows best really came from. You know. And in the 1800s the majority of women were breastfeeding. And then by the time we get to 1950, it's almost half of women are nursing. They're all, you know, going straight to formula. So that's when these big companies came into play. Right. So just what we were talking about recently, there's these corporations, they're growing, they're making money. And there were some issues, you know, with the marketing of these products. And one story in particular was in the 70s, so things, there was this big movement in the 70s where women kind of started to come back to home birth and nursing and things like that. And so Nestle was like, hey, we gotta make our money a different way for this powdered milk. You know, so they actually would send salespeople dressed as nurses or medical professionals into these third world countries to sell their formula. And they would literally get these women off of, you know, they would lose their supply, they would stop nursing, they would use formula. And then these countries didn't have access to things like clean water. And so babies literally died. So this is where the World Health Organization came in and said, you know what, we need to do something about this marketing of formula and created. What's the technical word, Andrea? The code for breast milk substitutes.
- [17:11]
Andrea Haskins
International code for breast milk substitutes. So it was basically just a set of rules. Just like cigarettes are, have regulations on them for advertising a formula. But the US and New Zealand are the only countries that haven't adopted that code into law. Just like you can see like pharma commercials on tv, right? They're allowed. So that Nestle thing was kind of what spurred the code. And, and people, companies are supposed to be following it, but they really like don't yeah.
- [17:44]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
And you don't see a ton of formula marketing, you know, on tv. We've seen a little bit of it throughout our lives. You know, I don't know if there's anything that pops out. But really what spurred a lot of our campaigns is that these companies, particularly Bobby, that are more boutique, you know, are now marketing themselves through influencers on social media. So that's really where we have a problem. So you'll see. And it's not just, you know, any old influencer. A lot of the times it's even lactation consultants they've partnered with and all sorts of different influential people that are influencing women in their most vulnerable state right after they've had their babies. And it's not to help them, it's to make money.
- [18:36]
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- [19:57]
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- [20:27]
Andrea Haskins
Um, I think I just won my taxes. Yeah, I just switched to H and R Block in about one minute. All I had to do was drag and drop last year's return into H and R Block and bam. My information is automatically there so I don't have to go digging around for.
- [20:40]
Jenny Urich
All my old papers to switch. Nope. Sounds like we just leveled up our tax game. Switching to H and R Block is easy. Just drag and drop your last return.
- [20:50]
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- [20:54]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
So, Andrea, if you want to talk about too, like kind of the messages that are being portrayed through their marketing.
- [21:00]
Andrea Haskins
Yeah. So I first noticed the company Bobby, it came out in 2021 and there had been a couple of different sort of tropes of the formula advertising in the past. As far as like we're non judgmental. Like that's, that's a big trope. That's a more modern one. I think maybe like Mfamil and Similac, they don't really have to do a ton of advertising. They do like the baby clubs and like the free formula in the doctor's office. That's their form of advertising. And I think the new wave, and you'll even see like some companies like Gerber moving to social media. I think the new wave is this Bobby is kind of like leading the way.
- [21:43]
Jenny Urich
I see it. It's influencer after influencer.
- [21:45]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
Yeah, absolutely.
- [21:46]
Jenny Urich
This is wild. I saw him recently for Kellogg's because I did this march at Kellogg's headquarters.
- [21:52]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
Yeah.
- [21:53]
Jenny Urich
And right at the same time was bad timing for that person. But it was an influencer who's a musician, came out with this huge song about Kellogg's and it was like they open. He opened the door to the kitchen and there was all these boxes of Kellogg's cereal. And it was like the Tony the Tiger. And it's great, this whole thing. And someone thought he got paid at least a hundred thousand dollars, but probably more for that one video. And so I was like, oh, wow, there is a lot of money going on. And this Bobby does have influencer after influencer. It's just person after person. This name, that name, it's pretty wild.
- [22:31]
Andrea Haskins
And you know, I think with influencers, they can get away with some messaging that they might not. They can't post a thing in the, in a magazine that says breastfeeding is bad for your mental health. But they can have an influencer come on and be like, you know, breastfeeding. I was trying and it was really difficult and my mental health was destroyed. And then I found Bobby. They kind of can get away with saying, more.
- [22:57]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
You'll get more sleep.
- [22:59]
Jenny Urich
Yeah, yeah, it is person after person. And then they're, like, walking into Whole Foods as a couple. This is pretty interesting. Predatory formula marketing kind of came right.
- [23:09]
Andrea Haskins
Out of the gate, like I said in 2021, with, like, they like, hi, we're here. We're gonna trash breastfeeding. Because they had this ad that said, how is breastfeeding going with the breast crossed out? And positioning people who advocate for breastfeeding as, like, judgmental. That is their whole spiel. A lot of part of their. Also their spiel is promoting combo feeding for ease and convenience, which we don't have any problem with. Like, women who want to use formula in general or combo feed, especially when it's needed. I think I always say, like, every drop of breast milk is great, and if you have to use formula because you have low supply, that's one thing. But they're promoting it as, like, this falsely convenient way of feeding. When. Ask anyone who has to combo feed out of necessity, it's definitely probably harder because you have to pump and then get the bottles, wash all the bottles, you know, pay for the formula. So they kind of promote that as. And the problem is these influencers come in like, yeah, we're combo feeding. Like, it makes it so easy because dad can feed and blah, blah, blah. But they don't talk about how that actually can, like, lower your breast milk supply, and then you end up with a breastfeeding journey that is not as long as you had hoped for. So that's. They're only doing that to sell more formula. They're not doing it because they care about you as a woman or a mother. They are literally doing it for profit. So that's what Rad Moms Union is kind of trying to call out.
- [24:38]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
Yeah. And I think it's important to note, too. You know, 83% of mothers initiate breastfeeding. So that's a lot. That's a lot of women. And then by the time they get to six months, it drops to 20, 25%. Right, Andrea?
- [24:55]
Andrea Haskins
Yeah.
- [24:56]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
And so we have all of these women in these vulnerable positions who have. They want to nurse their babies, and so why aren't they able to have the breastfeeding journeys that they hope to have? You know, and we think the predatory formula marketing has a lot to do with that.
- [25:15]
Andrea Haskins
Yeah, it's a big piece. Obviously, there's a myriad of reason, cultural reasons. Yeah. And the. What Bobby's been able to do is kind of latch onto these tropes and these cultural, I guess, messages and use it to their advantage to make profit. So we're just trying to expose Bobby as a company is no different than Nestle. You know, they're a large corporation profiting off of you.
- [25:43]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
Right.
- [25:44]
Andrea Haskins
At most vulnerable. And we just want women to be able to make that decision without these corporations, like, in their head.
- [25:52]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
And I wanted to say quickly, too, just coming from the organic food industry, like, and Andrea, you talk about this too. When they first came out, like, I was excited about it because I was like, oh, finally, like, an organic formula, like, this is going to be great. But then again, like Andrea said, when your first big spread in the New York Times is how is breastfeeding going with breast crossed out? It just sends a different message from what I had hoped they would send.
- [26:21]
Jenny Urich
You know, it's like capitalizing on the rage that happens on the Internet and the polarization that already happens on the Internet and then demonizing the people who are trying to get a message out about something that is important. Whether it works for everybody or not, it's still an important message to get out. And so they're taking the climate of social media and being able to turn that to their advantage. That's a really big thing. I remember getting sent home with bottles. They were cute, filled with formula already because we had our first two at a hospital. And even that, it's like, you know, when you're in the middle of the night and you're having a hard time getting that baby to latch and you really need to stick with it. You got that bottle sitting there. They sent it home with you. A couple of them.
- [27:08]
Andrea Haskins
Yeah.
- [27:08]
Jenny Urich
So even that, it's like, you know, it's an interesting and. But you feel like you have to have it because what if. So I don't know. I guess I never really looked at that as predatory. But that does make a lot of sense.
- [27:18]
Andrea Haskins
Oh, yeah, that's one of their main advertising methods is to give away the free formula to seed doubt in mom's mind. They'll get it. Moms will get it from their registry. Like, they get your name and your address when you sign up for a registry. And they'll send it in the mail like you said. They send it home in the hospital. And it's one of their main strategies because, yeah, when the baby's screaming at 3am you are going to reach for that. And then you could get like in a cycle.
- [27:45]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
Well, and there's even stories of influencers talking about how, you know, maybe they announced their pregnancy and all of a sudden this formula shows up at their door. Like they announce it on social media and then they end up with, with formula.
- [27:58]
Jenny Urich
Well, it's a big deal because that's a big thing that has changed with influencers and people showcasing their lives and their journey. So then a lot of people know that they're pregnant and there's a lot of money to be made in those years. And in the infant years, we nurse for a long time. We nursed long enough with one kid to like be the weird family on YouTube. I didn't do it, but I do feel like I could have made a lot of money because when before we were parents, I think we watched some of those videos. Sometimes we were like, people nurse for this long and you're kind of like slack jawed and it would have like millions of views. I was like, we would be rich if we shared. But I haven't shared. Well, we nurse for a long time. And a couple things I think that people need to know about because you're talking about like there's a lack of information here, right? There's a lack of information that there's another way. One thing to know about is that it will solve every temper tantrum, like immediately. So it's like a parenting strategy. You don't necessarily have those terrible twos or threes when you're nursing because when they fall down and they get hurt or they're fighting or they're upset, they just nurse and it's over.
- [29:06]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
Yep.
- [29:07]
Jenny Urich
It's pretty wonderful.
- [29:08]
Andrea Haskins
Yeah.
- [29:09]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
Which reminds me, you know, some of these influencers, I'd see them talking about switching to formula because they wanted to travel. And then, you know, you see these recounts of how awful traveling with their babies were because they're not nursing them, you know, And I'm like, traveling with babies is so easy because you can just nurse them.
- [29:28]
Jenny Urich
Yeah.
- [29:29]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
So it's like so many of these, these things are affected for sure.
- [29:32]
Andrea Haskins
Nobody makes money when we're like, yeah, nurse till the baby is four. Because then you'll be able to soothe temper tantrums. Right.
- [29:40]
Jenny Urich
Like, yeah, you never hear that.
- [29:42]
Andrea Haskins
Nobody makes money off saying those messages. But when you hear messages such as, you know, from companies or influencers that are getting paid like this help my mental health or combo feeding is easier or I can sleep more. When you hear messages from someone who's getting paid to say that or who profits off of you when they say that, then those messages aren't really valid and someone is profiting off of them.
- [30:09]
Jenny Urich
Right, so let's talk about some of the benefits of extended breastfeeding. So one of them is the practical your life with toddlers 2 and 3 year olds. 18 months is so much easier. It is the solution to everything. It solves all those problems. There's also considerable health benefits and I am noticing that in this day and age, like post Covid, the stuff that we're getting is lasting longer and is a little bit more harsh. I, I don't know and I'm like, maybe it's in my head but I feel like we're getting sicker and staying sicker longer with sickery type things. So you know you've got that breast milk that's passing on antibodies to the kids. So that's a piece. There was another piece I was thinking of, I don't know. But we can just start with those two.
- [30:54]
Andrea Haskins
I would say getting them to sleep easy because well, my son just stopped nursing a couple months ago and he turned five yesterday and he hasn't nursed to sleep in probably a year. But because it just, the flow just becomes so slow, they can't. So when that ended, now he takes, you know, 30 minutes to get to sleep when before it was like five seconds of nursing and he's out. So it is like always look down upon to nurse to sleep because like, oh no, it's a bad habit. Like that's what the, the culture tells you. Oh, you have to get them independent. But it's actually more of like a superpower to be able to get them to sleep very quickly. And it's also like part of the criticism we get for extended nursing is part of the whole thing we were talking about in the beginning with the culture that is so obsessed with independence and control. There's something that deeply offends people in terms of a child being dependent on their mother for anytime more than the arbitrary number of months or weeks that our culture seems normal. Like oh, six months, oh, now they need to sleep alone, they need to wake up. It's so like arbitrary. What is so deeply offensive about a child depending on their mother or their caregiver? It's unsettling almost to think about the deep hatred that people have for that. Like there's some fear maybe that oh, the child's now dependent on you, they're never going to be independent. So I don't know. I was just thinking about that because I did have like a real go viral of me about nursing my 4 year old and just the vitriol that was generated by people.
- [32:47]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
A lot of shame too. Yeah.
- [32:49]
Jenny Urich
I wonder about the culture messages because it's like if you have the ability to sort of go back and go back. I remember reading about how, let's say in the 50s, you could support a family on a postman's income. That's how it worked. So you would have. One parent was working out of the home and one was usually home with the kids. With these kids that are very dependent on usually the mother. So that was fine. Well then, so what happened was, is they're not getting enough tax dollars. Right. So it's only tax dollars coming from one person. But if both people are in the workforce, then you get tax dollars from both people. And it became a thing where actually like the amount of money that two people working is not much more than how it used to be with one person working. I don't know. I don't know enough about it. I've read some, but that this was like an on purpose thing. And then all of a sudden there's more tax dollars. And so it makes you wonder, like, is it coming from there? Which is like this sort of shaming women for their babies to be with them and dependent on them so that they go back to the workforce.
- [33:56]
Andrea Haskins
Oh, yeah. I mean, that connects to, like I said, what we were talking about before. It's like this cultural drive to separate. And sometimes it really isn't about like individual choices. It's more like this whole. This is what like we're writing about in Radical Moms Union. Just like this whole kind of capitalistic and convenient culture. Yeah. Like it's just like separate as soon as possible, go back to work. Babies should not depend on you. When really like our instincts tell us the opposite and, and extended breastfeeding just offends people because it doesn't fall in line with that. There's something so like, wrong with, with a child continuing to depend on their parent in that way. For people.
- [34:46]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
Yeah. And not only is it good for the child, but just for us as women nursing, like being able to stop and slow down and be with our babies and connect with them longer than just the 12 weeks or whatever society tells us, that's all you need to do. That's all you, you know, you only need to nurse for this long. I mean, for me, nursing my children was just so vital in creating that connection, you know, which is so important for women.
- [35:14]
Jenny Urich
That's such a good point. Wow, Kaylee. It's an interesting one because, you know, you're in this process of rebuilding your body. It takes several years. And so that would make sense that for all of those years, you have those moments of your day where you have to stop and you have to sit and you have to slow down and maybe you're at a party and you have to pull yourself away for a little bit. And it creates this environment of that that is conducive toward your own healing, toward your own healing emotionally and physically. So, yeah, what a thing. The benefits are really far reaching. We're so glad we breastfed for however long we did. It was very hard at the beginning. Kids wouldn't take a bottle. You know, you're. You're their person for a year, two years, three years. I mean, I remember our youngest, I went to go take her to the grandparents. She was five. I was like, honey, you'll be starting kindergarten. And she's like, you know, she wants to be with mom. But then on the other hand, you're like, well, what a special thing. What a special thing that they're so comfortable with you.
- [36:17]
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- [36:45]
Jenny Urich
We were at this church. We have a bad track record with church. We got kicked out of church. We got kicked out of church this year, which is so wild. And I'm like, I feel like I'm supposed to share the story. It's really embarrassing. But also I'm like, I do think I'm supposed to talk about it, but we got kicked out. We had a kid that was getting bullied and the pastors, like, went to another family in the church and like, lied about us. It was insane. Anyway, so we lost our whole community. We're doing okay. We're back on our feet. But we got kicked out of the church. And then the church that we were at before, they were running sleep training classes. And I was like, excuse me. I was like, well, hold on. Do we know that Jesus would be okay with sleep training classes? Because I would suggest that he's the one who made them cry and connect with their mother. So anyway, I got in big trouble because I called and I was like, I don't think you should be running this. I don't think That a religious organization should be backing the. The lady's website was like, you'll get better sleep and your whole family will run better. And I was like, I don't know. You know, we're talking about a God who never slumbers. Like, there's spiritual lessons you could be learning from feeding your baby through the night. Like, whatever people believe. Okay. But I was like, I do not think that the church should be running this sleep training class.
- [38:08]
Andrea Haskins
Wow.
- [38:08]
Jenny Urich
And be behind it. So then they wouldn't. They would. They wouldn't not do it. So then whenever they would post about it. This was years ago. They were advertising on Facebook. Then I would comment and put all of this information about how you should really think about this. Like, you know, it might be different than you think, and, you know, God made them that way and whatever. And then. Then I got in trouble.
- [38:34]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
What is happening in Michigan?
- [38:36]
Jenny Urich
I don't know.
- [38:37]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
Thank you for your service, Judy.
- [38:39]
Jenny Urich
They don't like us in church here.
- [38:42]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
It's not easy out here.
- [38:44]
Jenny Urich
But that's a cultural thing. So we're talking about culture. I mean, it's infiltrated the church where the church is now pushing one style of doing this. And I haven't a balanced approach at all. But, like, I don't know. I was pretty mad, actually. A little mortified. I'm like, why? Rightfully so. Why are they doing that? So. So talk to us about sleep training. And I don't even know what a snooze is. So this must be a new thing since we've had kids. But these, you know, we're trying to separate mother and baby.
- [39:14]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
Well, the snoo is a robot crib. Basically. It's like, how much is it, Andrea? $2,000 or something. I never bought seven.
- [39:23]
Jenny Urich
I don't know.
- [39:23]
Andrea Haskins
It keeps going up. Last time I looked, 1700, maybe more now.
- [39:28]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
And you basically strap your baby into this little platform inside the bassinet, and it rocks it back and forth. And so what else does it do, Andrea? It basically is a solution for your baby that's crying. You just put your baby in here, and your life will be better because your baby will sleep in this robot.
- [39:47]
Andrea Haskins
Yeah. I mean, all these things are, like, as a result of our society that, again, is pushing us back to work. Better get back to the hustle, Separate your baby, make them independent. Like, why is it okay for the snoo to rock your baby back to sleep, but you not to rock them to sleep? It makes zero sense.
- [40:06]
Jenny Urich
Wow.
- [40:07]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
Well, and there's a lot of fear around things, you know, and all that comes into play in the hospital. Yes, Andrea. Right. So, like. Or you leave now. Which I had noticed with some more recent birth clients. They're like, sign this thing that says, you'll never sleep. Go sleep with your baby while you're in hospital. Or sign this, and it tells you how dangerous co sleeping is when you get home with your baby. So everyone's scared.
- [40:31]
Andrea Haskins
We had to watch a video that was, like, from the 1980s, and it was like, yeah, like, required to watch. And it was like, you know, the parents bring the baby into, like, this big, fluffy bed with pillows, and, yeah, they scare you as much as possible.
- [40:46]
Jenny Urich
Wait, this is controlled through an app. It's.
- [40:50]
Andrea Haskins
Oh, yeah.
- [40:51]
Jenny Urich
That means that there's some sort of a wi Fi Bluetooth.
- [40:54]
Andrea Haskins
Oh, yeah.
- [40:54]
Jenny Urich
A snoo rocks back and forth to sue the baby. You can tell I'm like an old mom now because I don't know what's out there. By mimicking the motion of the womb, gently moving the bassinet platform when a baby starts to fuss or cry. When the baby starts crying, the snoo automatically begins to rock back and forth, and the parents can manage it through the app.
- [41:15]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
Well, and have you seen the picture of the baby in there?
- [41:18]
Andrea Haskins
They're, like, strapped down.
- [41:20]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
It's strapped in, like, a straight jacket.
- [41:22]
Jenny Urich
Oh, goodness. Wow. So one of the things that you say is, you guys are called the radical moms union. But you're like, actually, we really think we're very normal. Like, the snoo should be considered radical.
- [41:33]
Andrea Haskins
Yeah, it should. If you really stop to think about all these things, it's like, why is this normal? Why is we can even go back to, like, birth? Why is random strangers sticking their fingers up you and, you know, normal? Why is being strapped down when you're giving birth normal? Like, why are these things? Why have we accepted all this? And if you talk to a lot of mothers, you know, I do feel like moms do want to be with their babies. They want to do things like breastfeed and stay home with their babies. It's just that, like, our culture has not allowed that to happen.
- [42:18]
Jenny Urich
Wow.
- [42:19]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
Yeah. And I feel like, too, I kind of got caught up in that. And I just remember, like, I would try to work for. Get as much done as I could in three hours because I was supposed to, you know, have this career, and I just rush home driving, probably erratically. I mean, probably wasn't safe just to get to my baby to nurse them, you know, like, that was where I Wanted to be, but it was just fighting culture.
- [42:42]
Jenny Urich
I mean, this wording, first of all, you buy it on a website called happiestbaby.com, which even that, my goodness, I'm eight years out of this. So. Wow. It says this. Less crying plus more sleep plus safer baby.
- [42:59]
Andrea Haskins
Yeah, it's very compelling.
- [43:01]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
Safety is what they use.
- [43:03]
Jenny Urich
Safer than being with the mom. Yeah.
- [43:05]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
What's your definition of safe? I guess is what I would ask safer baby.
- [43:10]
Jenny Urich
If you have the snoo, which costs so much money.
- [43:13]
Andrea Haskins
That's just a little bit representative too, of like, they make you scared that you will hurt your baby. They make you think that your own body is like something to be feared when it comes to like, same thing with the messaging of like don't kiss your baby insanity or your body can't.
- [43:31]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
Birth your baby, you can't breastfeed your baby, can't nurse your baby.
- [43:36]
Jenny Urich
Yeah. And then it just continues. You can't let your kids play outside. You have to make sure that you are in control of all of the activities that you do. They're not going to succeed. I mean, the messaging is. It's very interesting then, isn't it?
- [43:47]
Andrea Haskins
Yeah, just continue.
- [43:48]
Jenny Urich
Isn't it that the, the similar messaging continues, which is basically you don't know what you're doing.
- [43:54]
Andrea Haskins
Yeah. You're, you're not, you can't homeschool. You don't know how to teach.
- [43:58]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
Like, you don't know what's best for your babies and your children.
- [44:03]
Andrea Haskins
We just want to bring women back to that. Like, listen to yourself and follow your instincts.
- [44:10]
Jenny Urich
Yeah. One of the things you say is our culture makes motherhood so much harder than it needs to be. And isn't that the truth? It's so much harder if you have to buy an eighteen hundred dollar snoop. Yeah. Because you have the money for that. I mean, that's wild. When I first started teaching, I made 500 a week. A whole week. I would be with kids for 40 hours and have to deal with their parents. And I made 500, 450. My checks were 900 bucks. So for an entire month of work, I could buy one snoo.
- [44:40]
Amazon Ad
Right.
- [44:41]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
And imagine thinking like, oh my God, if I don't buy this snoo, I.
- [44:45]
Jenny Urich
Have a less safer baby.
- [44:46]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
Yeah.
- [44:47]
Jenny Urich
Yeah. So it's not only that pressure, but then it's also the money. I was talking to someone recently who is a friend of a friend, but the, the cost for the daycare and going back to the daycare dilemma is a thousand dollars A week for a nanny for one baby, and then the other, the other toddler is at a daycare. So it's like a thousand dollars plus whatever the daycare is. And I'm kind of like, that's a whole lot of money over. I mean, I couldn't have afforded that. And I know that's one of the big things that people say, well, daycare should be less expensive. But also the other hand is it. It doesn't cost anything if you don't use it.
- [45:24]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
Right. And that's the thing. There are choices for some people, you know, and women are so creative. Like, look at all these women in the radical moms union. It's like, you know, of course we've all wanted to figure out how to make money in certain ways, but we also know that being our babies is number one. So we've kind of figured out how to be creative and manipulate those things a little bit so we could do what's most important, be with our babies, nurse them.
- [45:51]
Jenny Urich
My friend Mandy, she's got plandy Mandy, and she puts out these meal plans and she. It's like $100 a week or less. I don't know. She makes the snacks and she just doubles up every time she makes a recipe so that it makes two meals. So it's like half the time the cost is less because you can buy in bulk. And she has this huge account where she sells her meal plan. She says that they save $5,000 a year on groceries because the point is, sometimes you can't make more money. But she was like, well, you could spend less. And that's one way to have more. Basically, it's. It's a different approach. And I thought, well, yeah, well, first of all, she's come up with a business on her own as a stay at home mom, but also is really helping their family's finances by doing creative things. Like you said, I want to go buy that. Yeah, they're great. Yeah, they're fantastic meal plans. She's got like a crock pot one. She comes out with a new one every month and it saves you like 400amonth on groceries. And they're fantastic recipes. We've liked them. So, okay, we're wrapping up here the what's your heart for moms? What's your heart for today's mom? Because I'm a little out of it. Like, I'm like eight years out from that baby stage. And to know I didn't realize that, like, influencers are pushing Bonnie. I did see the Kellogg's thing, which I thought was kind of wild, but it's a different day and age where the marketing tactics have changed, and that's really confusing and overwhelming. What is your message for today's mom?
- [47:19]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
Yeah, I think for me it's. I really just want moms to know that they have a choice and another option besides just following what cultures tells them to do. Because I tried it and I dipped my toes in it. And every time, you know, I felt some pulling at my heartstrings, like, this isn't what I wanted. And really listen to my intuition. Like, that never failed me. So I just, I still think there's a big stigma around women. Like, to be successful is to own a business or to make all of this money. Like, that still is there. And, you know, you'll hear this all the time. You. Well, you. You can have it all. Like, people still. Still think that you can own a multimillion dollar business and then have these children and really is. You need to decide what having it all really means to you. So I guess my message is just, I want women to question things and go back to their intuition and. And use that as a guide because I do wish I would have done that sooner.
- [48:30]
Andrea Haskins
I would say this is going to be controversial, probably, but one of the things that spurred me to make my account was like, I am now regretting that I spent time trying to get my daughter to be on a schedule and, like, make her independent. You're never going to get that time back, like, ever. That's like, your one shot. I mean, you can have more kids, but that's your one shot. And your children only have one childhood. So if your intuition is screaming for you to do something, then you should listen to it because you don't want to look back and, like, regret, oh, I just wasted this entire postpartum, like, being angry that they weren't on the moms on call schedule or whatnot. So I know people get upset when people are like, it goes, Andrea, I use mom. Enjoy every moment.
- [49:26]
Jenny Urich
I hated the schedule. It did not work for us at all. And it gave me a false sense of how it was going to be, which maybe is almost the worst part, because I actually spent the first three years I. The only reason I'm doing 1000 hours outside is because I've spent the first three years of my mothering feeling like I was failing every single day because my kids wouldn't do the schedule and other people's kids seemed to. It was an awful three years of motherhood. I hated It. I loved my kids, but I hated it. And I. I dreaded every single day. I hated to go to bed knowing I would be up all night, that I had to do it again the next day. And getting outside is really what changed things for me because it gave me a chance to exhale, and it gave me a chance actually to loosen the reins. I had no idea how amazing it was going to be. I actually thought it was going to be really stupid, but it turned out to be great. But it was. The schedule is what set that up, I think, for me, for it to be awful. And so. I don't know. There's a lot of things out there. And I think these are important conversations partly just because you really have to think about why you're making your decision. Is it the decision you really want to make, or is it. Are you pressured because of some cultural message? And all three of us are saying, we have certain regrets that came from cultural messaging that we didn't realize at the time and wish we would have known. I wish I would have known. You don't have to wait to have kids. You can have kids right away. Some of my friends did, and I'm always like, how did you know? When they. I don't know. They don't really have a good answer for me. Like, how did you know? They were like, well, I just wanted a baby. I was like, well, so did I. But I was told you're supposed to wait. And those actually were awful. Five years of marriage. They weren't like some glorious whatever. I don't know. Maybe for some people they are. But anyway, so just amazing things to think about. Tell people where they can find more. Give them all the places that they can go to find more support.
- [51:12]
Andrea Haskins
Yeah. So we are continuing our campaign against Bobby in order to get the CEO to apologize for trashing breastfeeding and stop using breastfeeding in their marketing. We would just like them to. If they're going to market, which they're not technically supposed to, we would just like them to stop using breastfeeding and talking down on it. So that's our campaign. And like we said before, we have regular meetings where we give information. You know, if you're a lactation consultant and you're interested in this, we have certain lactation consultants. We have, like, doula groups. So you will find out about meetings like on the Radical Moms Union Instagram or the Radical Moms Union substack. I'm at Instinctual Mothering on Instagram. And Kaylee, if you want to Share yours.
- [52:05]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
Yeah, I'm at Wild Mama. Underscore, underscore. Real technical.
- [52:11]
Jenny Urich
I actually.
- [52:12]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
Okay.
- [52:13]
Jenny Urich
I'm at the tail end of a cold. I actually love that. I think this is like the day and age. Where can you find me? Underscore, underscore. It's so good. It's so good. I'll make sure I put all the links in the show notes, too, to make it easy for people. But if they're wanting to go look right now, they can find you. And the substack is great as article after article.
- [52:30]
Andrea Haskins
Yeah.
- [52:30]
Jenny Urich
More than anything, people just need to know, like, this is what I wish. What I wish is I just would have. I wish I would have been exposed to other things so that I can make the decision. Yeah, but you really feel like you don't have a decision when you aren't exposed to the other piece. Which is why I feel like with the church, I'm like, no, you can't. You can't just run baby training class if you're not at least going to offer the alternative. Like, you probably shouldn't be weighing. Weighing in anyway and. And going to. What is a sleep training? Is that. Did I say it wrong? I'm kind of at the tail end of a cold. I might have said a ton of things. I'm thinking, like, did I call Bobby? Bonnie, I'm.
- [53:12]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
I think you might. Yeah.
- [53:14]
Jenny Urich
I just noticed now that we're wrapping up, I'm like, I. I'm not quite sure, but, you know. Yeah. So you. People need. Mothers need to know what the options are. And they may need to know, like, hey, you might be happier in a smaller home spending less money but not having to work. You may be happier with one car. Means a lot of families have one car. You. You may be happier in this community seeing how other people are making it work, because that's what's in line with your instincts. So I just love what you're doing. I'm so glad that the both of you came on Radical Moms Union. The substack is fantastic, and you can find all sorts of information there. We always end our show with the same question, and that question is, what's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside.
- [54:01]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
Sure, I'll go. I was just thinking about this recently, and while it wasn't really fun, it really. As I was reminiscing about it, it meant a lot. But all my friends, dads were farmers. And I remember specifically why. Walking beans. Did you guys ever do that in Michigan? Like, you'd walk No, I have no idea.
- [54:21]
Jenny Urich
I don't even know. What did you say?
- [54:24]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
Walking beans is what we called it. So he dropped us off in his. His bean fields, the soybean fields, and we'd have our, like, hatchets and walk along, and this was probably, like, 1996. So really right at the beginning of all the. The GMO things, you know, going. And we just walk around and hack beans and laugh, and we would do that all day. And he paid so well, it was probably, like, 40 bucks by the end of the day. But that really is one of my favorite memories, is, like, trying to hack down these weeds, and they were so big that they would literally knock us over. It was just me and my best friend out there making money. Walking beans.
- [55:01]
Jenny Urich
That is amazing. I'm curious. I want people to write in and say if they've ever even heard of that before.
- [55:07]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
That decasseling corn. Have you heard of that?
- [55:10]
Jenny Urich
Detasseling and the. And the greasing.
- [55:13]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
Oh, you haven't?
- [55:16]
Andrea Haskins
Yeah.
- [55:17]
Jenny Urich
Iowa has interesting things going on. Yeah, I'm. I'm missing out here. I love those. What cool memories, though. Super simple. Super simple, super unique.
- [55:26]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
Yeah.
- [55:27]
Jenny Urich
What you got, Andrea?
- [55:28]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
Andrea.
- [55:28]
Andrea Haskins
I feel like I have a lot and so many good memories revolve around playing outside as a kid. Like, my cousin had a farm, lived on a farm. And my older cousin had built this fort, like, in an old trailer, but it was up in a tree. And I always thought that was the coolest thing because he was, you know, he was older and had his, like, secret boys fort, and me and my other cousin would sneak into it when we weren't allowed to be in there. But, yeah, I can't even really pinpoint one because there's so many.
- [56:04]
Jenny Urich
That's awesome. I mean, we hope that kids still have memories like that today of detasseling corn and going into hidden forts. And, Andrea, thank you so much for being here.
- [56:16]
Andrea Haskins
Thank you.
- [56:17]
Kaylee Jenny Jones
Thank you so much. Thank you.