← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 437: Own Your Inner Beginner | Liz Bohannon, Beginners Pluck
01:01:29
Loading summary
Transcript46 lines
- [00:01]
A
Hey friends, if you are listening to this the day the episode releases, we are just about halfway through our first ever tour. It's called the 1000 hours outside. Really very crunchy worthy tour. It is a brand new show and a very unique one. It's a variety show filled with music, comedy, inspiration and improv. There are all sorts of surprises. Our third show is tonight in Smyrna, Georgia because it's brand new and I think a lot of people don't totally know what to expect. I wanted to read you a few of the reviews. These reviews have just come in over the past few days. Jenny. I don't have social media but have been wanting to send you a message and tell you how grateful I was for your tour. Oh my, what a joy it was. I brought my 9 year old and we both laughed and laughed. Your words were so encouraging and spoke to my spirit. I scribbled so many notes when I wasn't shaking with laughter. I woke up the next morning feeling like I was on vacation. Literally. That's how much reprieve I felt after your conference. Thank you for being so authentic and so much fun. Here's another one. I just wanted to tell you that my husband and I left last night's tour show feeling so encouraged. You are an excellent speaker. We laughed so hard. I believe you found your calling with comedy sl inspirational speaking. You are genuinely hilarious. My husband said she needs to go into stand up for sure. Great. Great job. We are so thankful for you and for your podcast. And one last one. Hey, I was at your Grand Rapids show, one of the weirdos that flew in from South Dakota and I wanted to tell you that the show was incredible. I laughed and cried and left feeling better than I did walking in. So thank five out of five stars. So if you've been on the fence, the reviews are pouring in. So many people are saying after the show, oh, if I would have known it was going to be this good, I would have brought my husband, I would have brought my friends, I would have brought my homeschool group. I would have brought my mom's group from church. So don't miss it. You have three more opportunities to see the 1000 hours outside. Really very crunchy tour. We will be in Smyrna, Georgia on Tuesday, February 25th. We will be in Franklin, Tennessee on Thursday, February 27th and we will be in Cincinnati, Ohio on Friday, February 28th. The tickets for the Cincinnati show are almost sold out, so get your tickets today. You can also get them walk up at the door, go to 1000hours outside.com tour to get your tickets today, you can use code podcast for $5 off your ticket. Hope to see you there. Imagine what's possible when learning doesn't get in the way of life at Capella University. Our game changing flexpath learning format lets you set your own deadline so you can learn at a time and pace that works for you. It's an education you can tailor to your schedule. That means you don't have to put your life on hold to pursue your professional goals. Instead, enjoy learning your way and earn your degree without missing a beat. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at Capella. Edu welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Ginny Urich. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and I have a guest on that. I've been wanting to talk to you for years. You've been on my list for years. Liz Forkin Bohannon is here. Welcome.
- [03:13]
B
Thanks so much for having me. I'm so excited to connect today.
- [03:16]
A
I love talking with entrepreneurs, so this is like a little bit of a leap, but it's something I'm pretty passionate about because we are trying to get kids outside and give them time and space to play. That's the whole premise, and for ourselves, too. And I think one of the biggest reasons why we don't do that is because of fear. We fear for the future. We fear they're not going to be set up for what they need to be set up for. And so we look around and everyone is enrolling their kids in different classes and types of enrichment things. And so play seems to be frivolous. But there are so many paths to a good life. And that is one of the reasons I love to talk to entrepreneurs. I think it reminds parents that there's a lot of ways, there's a lot of things that can happen even after you feel like you hit a dead end. There's a lot of opportunities out there. There's a lot of ways to change the world. And you've got a great story. Liz.
- [04:05]
B
Well, I love what you're up to because it is so. I'm so aligned with that. And I think about parenting through the lens of entrepreneurship a lot and how to bring my kids into it, but also just, yeah. What I have learned from my journey of what has helped me build a life that I would call successful, which again, like for every person, a good life and a successful life is nuanced and different. And I've taken some non Traditional paths. And so I feel like I have a little bit more imagination for how I'm setting my kids up for success, really modeling it after like what skills I found to be most useful in my journey. That being said, I still totally probably like once a quarter have like a panic attack where I'm like, but they're not doing the things and they're not competitive enough in sports and they're going to get left. I mean my kids are 8, 6 and 3 and I have already truly felt that sense of like my kids are getting left behind because we're not more scheduled because we are. We don't put as much of a focus in our family on the kind of like traditional enrichment things and we, we've opted for other ways of investing in our kids. For instance, I just yesterday got back home from a trip to Hawaii which sounds like very vacation and it was not. I went with a colleague of mine from East Africa who has been a longtime friend and colleague. We built a fashion company together and we're really exploring agriculture in a new way, specifically the cocoa industry. And long story kind of long with me always is we went on a research trip to Hawaii and stayed on a sustainable farm in a yurt, no electricity, spent our days on cocoa farms and I took my kindergartener and really set it up. The premise of it was this is an internship. Like if you want to come, it's a big privilege to get to miss school, go to Hawaii. Here are all of the responsibilities that you're going to have that I, you know, expect of you. You're going to bring your digital camera, you're going to document the process. His main role was to ask any question that Aggie and I forgot to ask. And that to me was really like I believe that curiosity is a superpower. Curiosity has served me more than any other skill or value. Maybe not more than any other, that might be hyperbolic. It's a, it's a top three. So for me I'm like oh my gosh, it's, it's all. So it's very intentional. Like how can I get my kids into situations where I'm cultivating the skills and the values that I have found to be such enrichers in my life. But it is in very non traditional ways right where it's like, so you're gonna miss school to go spend three days on a cocoa farm in Hawaii. Now that's an extreme example. Like that was the first of its kind ever trip that I've done with my kids. So I Don't want to set up a premise that it's like, I do that all the time. But I also think about, like, when we go to Chipotle, how am I using that? Like, that's an opportunity for enrichment. It doesn't cost anything. I mean, it costs, you know, the cost of your bowl, obviously, but it's not a class. It's not formal, it's not structured. But it's like, hey, if you need some napkins, go ask for napkins. And like, I'm not gonna do it for you. Like, I will coach you, I will prep you. And that's with my three year old. Like, there are a million little moments in everyday life that I see as an opportunity as a parent to teach and to train. And really coach is the word that I like to use the most that has meant for us. We put a lot more focus, I think, on those margin moments than we do the more kind of like formal enrolled. Like, you're going here to learn a skill. And so that's. That's very much so. The posture that we take. And I do think it's been very influenced by my journey as an entrepreneur.
- [07:41]
A
That's good, Liz. It's good. And I think parents, you know, that'll give them the permission here and there, you can miss a couple days of school to go do a learning opportunity in another environment.
- [07:51]
B
For any parent that's feeling a little bad, we did get a letter. This was. We did. One of our kids was pretty sick last fall, but so this added to it. But we for sure got the letter from the principal that was like, you've missed too many days of school. And luckily we are in a situation with our school where there actually isn't a real consequence. And I just want to give permission to. And I looked at that and I was kind of like, I know how we're using our time and we're doing fine. Like, in that, to me is just like, I don't know that my kid. And you know, granted, everybody's situation is different. My kids are academically on track, so I'm just like, I. There is no world that I can imagine in which two or three days of them sitting in a desk and learning math and reading is that they do. Every other day of the school year is more valuable than these intentional situations, trips, camping, internships that we're creating as a family. But it can feel scary because anytime you step outside of the norm, you do open yourself up to more criticism. And like, if you do all of the right things and stuff is still hard with your kids. I feel like people are like, oh, gosh, they did all of the right things. You know, there's like, a little bit of mercy and grace. The moment you step off of normalcy, and then things go wrong. There is this fear that people are gonna be like, well, obviously, like, she didn't do things the way that they're supposed to be done. And that's really vulnerable. That is, for me, that feels really vulnerable. It does feel like a risk. But just for. For any other parents who have gotten that warning letter out there, you're not.
- [09:25]
A
Alone, and people turn out fine. I got the warning letter in kindergarten. I was just talking to my mom about it because I got really sick in kindergarten. And we got the warning letter. I got it in high school. And we got it. We got it a lot of times, like, skirting the edge there of how much you were allowed to miss. And your story is one where, well, in that vein, you're living out of your car, you run out of money for the shower at the national park. But, you know, so your parents, you know, it was like, people are probably like, you know, what's going on with Liz? It's a reminder, though, that we've not hit rock bottom. There's all sorts of paths that we could go. There's all sorts of things ahead, and so we don't have to be so worried about it. I read that story in your book. It's called beginners pluck build your life of purpose and impact. Now you have your podcast, the Plucking up podcast. You are a keynote speaker all around the world talking about things like the community quotient and beginner's pluck about being a beginner. I love that. I love that you champion the beginner, because actually, all of these conversations that we're having are about not being a beginner and having our kids start adulthood with, like, all of this extra Runway of things that they've learned or are already experts on. What's the benefit of being a beginner?
- [10:44]
B
Yeah. So my kind of thesis is that we live in a world that really lifts up, glorifies, and idolizes, like, experts and people who have it figured out, people who know the answers, people who have shown a track record of kind of, like, straight and up and to the right success. And my thesis, which I think is very well backed by social research that is done way beyond my competency level to validate this, is that actually, the more we identify as an expert or even as, like, super successful in A certain kind of vein. The less curious, the less creative, and the less innovative we come. So there are four stages of learning, and we see this in kids, but we see this all the way through adulthood. I did not make this concept up. The four stages of learning. You start out in stage one, which is called unconsciously incompetent. This is like where kids exist. A lot of the time you don't even know what you don't know, right? And then you have a moment of awareness.
- [11:42]
A
I feel like I'm like, that sounds like myself.
- [11:45]
B
I feel like I speak one a lot. You know, you see your kids and they're just like, so blissfully unaware. But we operate in that space a lot too, where it's like, well, I don't know what I don't know in whole sectors and areas of the world. But then oftentimes we kind of have a moment of awareness. And that moment of awareness can actually come in the form of something really great. You know, we get a. We get our first job, we get accepted to our dream school, we get promoted, we take on a new project or caliber of client, and all of a sudden you're in this new territory. You don't have competency yet, but what has changed is you're very aware of how much incompetence that you have. And so stage two of the learning journey is just unequivocally the most challenging stage from a psychological level. This is where you start to feel that imposter syndrome. Your ego's really frag schedule. And. And kind of the best advice that we get is like, just get through it as quick as possible. Fake it till you make it right. Like, just don't let anybody know how incompetent you are and keep going, get your reps in. Then you get to stage three, which is consciously competent. So this is when you're like, I can do it. It still takes a lot of effort, but, like, I'm getting there, I can do it. And then stage four is unconsciously competent, where you're so good at the thing, you've mastered it, you've done it so many times, you could really do it in your sleep. And oftentimes we think about this and see it as kind of like a stair step to success. And that idea that we should be working towards stage four, but then kind of like stay there. Like, once you got it figured out, now everybody sees you as the expert and as the leader and as the successful one. So all of a sudden what happens is you start facing a lot of psychological and social pressure to kind of protect your image and to protect your space at the top of the staircase. And that is when there's even. It's called. The hypothesis of earned dogmatism starts to set in that you're like, well, I got here, so I know how to do stuff, and I'm really good at this. You actually stop taking risks, because every time you take a risk and every time you try something that you're not good at yet, what's actually happening is you are diving back in to what is actually a cycle of learning. So we're going from like a stair step image to. To like a cycle image. And I think that people that have the most successful lives and who are the most innovative, who are the most curious, who are the most creative are the ones who are just kind of constantly willing to step back into that journey and go, like, great, I mastered this thing. I became an expert, I experienced success. Now, like, what's the next challenge? And they've been in stage two so often that it does actually start to feel a little bit easier. You're used to being a beginner. You don't feel a lot of shame. You know that the learning curve is going to be steep and painful, but you've done it before. You've gotten your kind of reps in from a cycle perspective. And so that is kind of just like a mentality that I have in life is kind of going like, okay, when I do master something, does that mean I just kind of like, stay there and just keep trying to make sure everybody knows I'm really good and really successful at this thing? Or do I have an openness and a willingness to kind of go back to being a beginner? And that's actually how we continuously grow.
- [14:51]
A
And learn, which is exactly what you're doing, because you built one of the largest manufacturing companies in Uganda. And I love the part in the book beginner's pluck where you say, so you're trying to sell these sandals. This is a great story. You're selling these sandals for these women to help further their education. And you're starting with a small group of women, and you can just jump in. If I get any of the story wrong, you're starting with a very small group of women. You're trying to get them through college. You know, if I can sell X amount of sandals, you're selling them from your car. You're, like, stopped in traffic and you're getting out and selling people's sandals. How much money you got? You Know, I've got every size. It's in my backpack. I've got these sandals. And then you go and try and wholesale them, which, I mean, I would have no idea. I mean, you don't know. Like, that's the. Unconsciously, I have no idea what I'm doing.
- [15:37]
B
Yeah.
- [15:37]
A
So you go into this store, and they're like, yeah, just get us your line sheet. I think it was something like that.
- [15:43]
B
Yeah, you're exactly right.
- [15:44]
A
In your mind, you're like, I've never even heard of that phrase. I don't know what a line sheet is, but I'm gonna be like, sure, no problem. I'll be back later today with my line sheet. You go home and you figure it out. So you start in the naked shower with no money, and now you're learning about line sheets, and you're helping these women in Uganda, and you have. You've built this huge manufacturing company, and now you're in Hawaii doing something with cocoa beans.
- [16:09]
B
Totally. Yes. It does. It, like, once you subscribe to this ideology and I'm, you know, 15 years in, it does start to. Even your own life decisions start to feel less wild and less dramatic. Whereas other people might look and be like, you know, so sunk cost. Sunk cost is something that we typically talk about as more of, like, a financial concept, where it's like, okay, but I already invested. You know, let's say you're building a house, and you invested in a certain type of foundation because you're in a certain climate. I've never used this analogy before, so it might go off the rails. We'll see. And then you. You learn something, and you're like, oh, we actually live in a climate where we should have built it this way. Sunk cost is going, But I've already put all of this money into building this foundation. How can I just make what I already did right? Or make it work? Maybe I don't listen to that new information. Maybe I somehow justify it. Maybe I, like, halfway make it the thing that it actually needs to be because I already did so much. But sunk cost is being willing to go. It doesn't matter. Like, you can't get that money back. That was, like. It was a mistake that you made. And building on your mistake, building a house on the foundation that you weren't ever really supposed to build in the first place doesn't get you that initial investment back. What it actually does is it endangers all of your kind of, like, future investments that you're building on top of that foundation. I Actually really like how that ended up. So thank you for letting me verbally process that analogy. So we think about it in terms of financial cost, but there is actually sunk cost, I think is one of our most powerful, like psychological constraints that oftentimes in life we're like, but I went to law school. Like I invested in a law degree and now I'm in it and I'm realizing like, it's sucking the life out of me and I don't love it and there's all these lifestyle. But I did the thing I have to just figure out and grin and bear it and make it work. And once you really embody this idea and this belief, which is frankly just like a. It's a very logical, practical belief that like, it doesn't get you that investment back to keep doing it. It's a sunk cost that's in the past. You just, it starts to get kind of easier and it starts to get less scary. And so yes, with, with this cacao farming, like what I do think seems like a big leap to other people, I'm kind of like, this is what we do. We look at the surroundings, we look at the circumstances, we look at the future. We say, what are our assets today and how can we use those assets to build the best next thing? And I have come to love stage two of the learning journey. Like, I embrace being an idiot. Like, I like showing up and going, I'm new here, I don't know what's going on. I'm willing to ask any question. And I actually do. I try to do things in my daily life like, okay, starting an entire like, new company, new industry for some people that's going to feel a little bit like, inaccessible or like not your how you operate. But I just want to say there's a million ways that you can do this in your daily life. Like, I took up rollerblading a couple years ago and I didn't do it because I really wanted to rollerblade. I was like, o, I need something in my downtime that's going to make me feel like an idiot. Like, I need something where I'm not going to be good at it. There's no way to make money from it. There's no way to. Yeah. Like, it's not contributing to my like, career or it's literally the purpose of it is for fun. And I know that for the first six months that I'm at it, I'm gonna look like a dumb. Dumb. And doing that on purpose of going like, because it sounds Silly. It's like rollerblading in your local park, but you like look like a seven year old and your neighbors are seeing you. Like it sounds silly, but something actually happens in your brain and then you start to embody it where you're like, oh, I can look like an idiot and it's not going to kill anybody. Like I'm going to survive. And if you actually start to embrace that, I think you just start to show up in the world in a different way where you're just like less obsessed with what everybody's thinking about you or how cringy or dumb or embarrassing you look. And the reality is I think we have a great misnomer. I think sometimes we think we're insecure. Like, my problem is I'm insecure. I think when you think you're insecure, you're pretty gentle on yourself because you're like, well, you just need more self confidence and like to build yourself up more. I don't know, maybe that's the right path. My theory is that a lot of what we're labeling as insecurity is actually an over inflated sense of ego. Like it's kind of like low key narcissistic. And all of a sudden when you go, wait, am I struggling with like being narcissistic? I think you have more agency. You're like, I don't want to be a narcissist in the world. You know, like if I'm insecure, I don't know, there's. How do I build that up? How do I have all of this like, grace? But sometimes that grace can lead to just like, you stay in the same place the moment you're like, kind of like a narcissist. I don't want to be a narcissist. How do I figure this out? And I don't mean that in like the clinical like definition of narcissism. Because here's the deal. Insecurity about what other people think of you rest on the core belief that other people are thinking about you and they're thinking about you a lot and they're watching you and they're watching your every move. And then once you go, once you leave, they see you in the park looking like an idiot, that they're going to go home that night and think about you while they're making dinner and they're going to bring you up to their friends when they're out with their girl. And it's just kind of like, girl, who do you think you are? Like, you're not Oprah. Like no one's watching you that closely, you know? And I think to me, that's an incredibly freeing way to show up in the world. It's just like everybody is so busy with their own big beautiful lives. Just no one is actually paying that much attention to me. So like, go do the thing. Go try the thing. Like you're gonna suck at it for a while. So what if you're cringy? Stop trying to be nonchalant. Just go be very shalant. And people aren't really going to notice that much.
- [21:57]
A
This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. What are some of your relationship green flags? We often hear about the red flags in life that we should avoid. But what if we focus more on looking for green flags in friends and partners? If you're not sure what they look like, therapy can help you identify green flags. Actively practice them in your relationships and embody the green flag. Energy yourself. Whether you are dating, married, building a friendship, or just working on yourself, it's time to form relationships that love you back. Therapy has so many benefits. It's helpful for learning positive coping skills and how to set boundaries. It empowers you to be the best version of yourself and the value is far reaching. It isn't just for those who have experienced major trauma. Better Help is fully online, making therapy affordable and convenient. Serving over 5 million people worldwide. There is a diverse network of more than 30,000 credentialed therapists with a wide range of specialties, and you can easily switch therapists anytime at no extra cost. Discover your relationship green flags with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com 1000hours today and you'll get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H E L p.com 1000hours okay parents, let's be honest. Raising a family today feels like navigating a maze of unhealthy options. Between all the hidden sugars, artificial ingredients and misleading labels, it's hard to know what's actually good for our kids and not just a marketing gimmick. That is why I love Love Love Thrive Market. It's like having a personal guide to healthier living for my family. Thrive Market makes it simple to find trusted, family friendly brands without spending hours in the grocery store. From snacks and school lunches to pantry stables, everything they offer is 100% non GMO and with their on site filters, you can shop based on what matters most to your family. Low sugar, gluten free, organic or high protein options are all just a click away for us. I love using the low sugar and organic filters to find better snack options for when we are on a hike or for packing lunches to take on a picnic. The Healthy Swaps scanner in the Thrive Market app is also amazing. Here's how it works. Scan a product that you're used to buying and it instantly recommends cleaner, healthier alternatives. We've made some great swaps. Instead of snacks filled with junk, we're stocking up on brands like Siete Chips, Annie's Organic Crispy Snack Bars and Chomps Beef Sticks. Are you ready for a junk free start to 2025? Head over to thrivemarket.com 1000hours and you'll get 30% off your first order plus a free 60 gift. That's T H R I V E market.com 1000hours thrivemarket.com 1000hours who doesn't love the good things in life? Even though I enjoy a little luxury, it doesn't mean I can always afford it. Until I discovered Quince. Quince is my go to for when I'm trying to step up my luxury essentials game, but doing so at affordable prices. Quince offers a range of high quality items at prices within reach, like 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters from $50 which I got and absolutely love washable silk tops and dresses, organic cotton sweaters and 14 karat gold jewelry. The best part? All Quince Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. By partnering directly with top factories, Quince cuts out the cost of the middleman and passes the savings on to us. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. I love that. One of my favorite things is the all black puffer jacket I got. It's super cute and most important, nice and warm for these cold winter days here in Michigan. Give yourself the luxury you deserve with quince. Go to quince.com outside for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com outside to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com outside yeah, embrace the beginner. You had a part in your book and I can't find it in my notes, but I loved it. It was like you were saying, but you have these, these things that happen and you're like, this is mortifying, this one thing. Then the next thing you have all these more defined things. Then you're like, but the next day I wake up and the sun still rises and nothing is really ever the end of the road. I think the sunk cost is really interesting. And you talk about in this book, Liz, about college debt. It's in one of the footnotes. There was a lot of footnotes. The footnotes are very witty. They're witty footnotes. I was like, this is great. I've come to believe that the student debt crisis in this country is one of the biggest impediments to entrepreneurship and innovation. But the sun cost thing to me is one of those things where you feel like I invested all of that. What if I don't have enough to invest in the same type of thing? And so it's really scary. It's scary to walk away from those sunk costs. It's interesting. I don't know if I've ever really even heard that phrase before. Sunk cost.
- [26:58]
B
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if we want to talk about. I mean, what I was trying to get at in that footnote is I think that our system is very broken. I think our system is very broken because you have. It's just. It honestly feels like I'm going to be hyperbolic because I tend to be kind of hyperbolic. It honestly feels kind of criminal to me that we would let an 18 year old sign up, make a quarter of a million doll purchase. Right. Without being educated about what the implications of that purchase is going to be down the road. And so you've got 18 year olds who like frontal cortex. They like frontal lobes aren't even fully developed. They have no competency when it comes to personal finances and much life just like costs. And like, what does it mean and what is it going to feel like and what is it going to do to your opportunities? When you graduate with a liberal arts degree and $200,000 of debt, all of a sudden your options for what you feel like you can do become very, very narrow and the path becomes take a job, any job that's going to be steady, that's going to get me a paycheck that's going to help me start chipping away at this thing. Now listen, if you want to go and you want to be a lawyer or a doctor or something that has like a. And that's your passion and you're like sold on it. Yeah, you're going to need an expensive education and it's going to pencil out for you, I think that's like a great decision. But for the 85 of us who don't enter into college with like a very specific idea of like what we want to do and how we're going to use our degree and what like our income earning potential is to come out of school with multi six figure debt. And that's what for me, my journey. Because I didn't have debt, I went to a state school, I got some scholarships, I graduated debt free. And I realized there's a ton of like also, you know, privilege involved in that and lots of different levels. But I made a really distinct choice. As an 18 year old, my parents told me, hey, we will help you pay for a state tuition. If you go to a state school, we'll help you pay for it. Anything over than what we would pay for a state school, you're on your own. And I really wanted to go to a private liberal arts school on the east coast that would have landed me in multiple six figures of debt. And as an 18 year old and no one was counseling me, which is why I'm just like, I came to the decision that I was like, I think I don't want to be in debt when I get out of college. I'll take the like cheap educational route. So when I graduated from college, I did, I had the luxury of going, I don't have any money, like I don't have a ton of savings in the bank, but I don't have this looming sense of like, I have to start making money now to start paying this thing back. And so what it enabled me is to take a year of exploration. I moved to Africa, I met these young women, I started this company. I didn't make a salary for probably like I lived off of about a thousand dollars a month for years and years and years. And it wasn't easy and there was like massive sacrifice that was involved. But it did feel differently because I didn't have this sense of like when this like thing that was like looming over me. And so I just wish, and here's like spoiler alert. I went to a great school, I got a great education in journalism. But like the reality is like I didn't pursue a path in journalism. Like there's nothing that I learned in school that was imperative to my entrepreneurial journey there just like wasn't. I learned everything on the fly. And I think career paths definitely, if you decide to be an entrepreneur, like, likelihood that you're using your education in like a super direct way is low. But even if you're not, I heard a stat and I'm gonna butcher it. But it was like 80% of the jobs that will be available to our children when they graduate from College do not exist right now. Now, 80%, again, I'm emphasizing a statistic that I didn't even fact check. Here we go. But a huge portion of the jobs that our kids that will be available to our kids literally don't exist right now. But yet we have all of these ideas of, like, what they need to get in their education and what we're preparing them for. And we're willing to go into massive amounts of debt to prepare them for a world that literally doesn't exist yet with an education system that's like. Like kind of catering to a world that was like, 10 years ago, that was a little bit of a rabbit trail. But that's how I feel about higher education.
- [31:12]
A
It's a good one. My favorite. One of my favorite people on the Internet is named Hannah Maruyama. She has a podcast called Degree Free. You'd love it. And she says only 7%. 7.7%. Here we go. We're gonna throw out all sorts of statistics today that may or may not be.
- [31:28]
B
That's gonna go through this after. After we're done.
- [31:31]
A
I think it's something like 7% of careers. Only 7%. 7.7 something require a college degree. That's it. Legally require. And all the other ones. She's like, you don't need it. And she calls it buying a college degree. That's the verbiage that she uses. And she says, just like you, no one should be allowed to take out a college loan until they're 25.
- [31:53]
B
Wow. Yeah.
- [31:54]
A
Prefrontal cortex, you know, so you understand how much does life cost? Because it does limit you. Then if you want to go to Uganda and you want to live off of $1,000, want to live out of the back of the car for four months, you want to go on these adventures. You can't, because you owe somebody something and you can't get out of it.
- [32:10]
B
You know, I think that. And I'm not saying that higher. I also, like, have a very high value for just education, you know, Like, I'm a huge reader. I'm building a family of readers, like self education and even to a degree, formal education. I'm not knocking it, but my experience, going to, like, a big state school. I just wish we put more intentionality into formation during the college years, too, that I'm like. I dream of, like, a situation for my kids. I don't know. It's like, I feel like going to a state school and, like, drinking yourself blackout drunk. I'm gonna sound, like, really judgmental right now. But just like the typical activities that college students are engaging in, I just am kind of like we're leaving a lot on the table. Like there's so much richness in that season of life. You're away from your parents, you're building your own values, you're kind of like thinking about your own worldview. You're building relationships and community, which is another thing that I'm incredibly passionate about. Without your parents kind of like leading that for the first time in your life. Like, why is college not a time that we're doing like formation? Like who are you as a person and what are your values and how are you going to build and design a life that integrate those values and conflict? How do we have conversations, how do we build, build relationships? How do we build meaningful relationships and community for the long haul? And I'm just like, it could be such a rich time. And it sometimes does feel like it's just like I'm going to show up and do the minimum amount of work for four years but pay multiple six figures to do the minimum amount of work and just be pretty drunk for four years. It's just like who is saying that this is a good idea?
- [33:47]
A
Yeah, I know. And then you're still paying on it when you're in your 40s and it limits you. Hannah says that most people don't get through in four, they get through in 5.5. So that when they talk about the cost, it's not just four years of cost, it's 5.5 years which extends how much it costs. And also she says that nobody factors in. And this is what you're pointing at. I feel like the opportunity cost. What are you losing out on when you lose the 5.5 years right after high school when you are wide eyed and it's go time to learn about the world and you're doing that. So interesting things, interesting things. Just food for thought.
- [34:24]
B
My business partners and I don't think she'll mind me sharing this at all. But my business partner has a daughter who is in school right now. She's a freshman in college. And I will say the specific school that she's at, it's rad. Like the stuff that she's involved in, leadership and there's all of these like programs that do feel more oriented towards like the whole person formation. And so I, I think that that is happening. I think that that happens. And I want, and I'm not like an expert, like it sounds like your person that you follow has thought about this a lot More. I want to be very clear that I'm kind of just, like, running my mouth about my opinion. I don't spend a lot of time on college campuses. And so my guess is there are places and there are schools where they are a lot more thoughtful about how are we actually preparing you for the real world? And so I'm speaking from, like, a pretty. Pretty narrow kind of experience, and I'm sure that that is happening and where it's happening, like. Like, I'm a big fan of it, and if my kids choose to go to college, I just hope that that's part of the consideration of, like, let's choose a place where, like, the whole person formation is really thoughtful and also where you're not coming out with multiple six figures of debt.
- [35:30]
A
Absolutely. We went and visited Grand Canyon University, which is in Phoenix, and it was wonderful, actually. They had all. They had, like, this garden, and they had all these clubs and all these outdoor recreation things. And I was like, oh, yeah, that does seem like that would be a really, really cool experience. So I agree with you. I'm sure that there are many, many like that that are really focusing on the whole person. Okay. My favorite chapter in beginner's pluck, build your life of purpose and impact now was chapter 10. So this is a book where you've got 14 different sort of lessons about being a beginner, 14 key principles, and my favorite one, and they're all good. This is about getting your steps in. This is about searching for miracles. This is about doing things. This is about making promises to yourself. It's about relationships. There's so much in here. But I liked Be good enough with Good enough. We love Preparation Land. This is the concept. Talk to us about why we love Preparation Land and why we should kick ourselves out of it.
- [36:29]
B
We love to think about things, talk about things, research things, noodle things, daydream about things, plan for things because it's very safe. Everything that I just named, you can't really bomb at, and you can't really fail at, like, you can't fail at, like, a day of thinking about something. You can't fail at, like, planning. You can't fail at researching. You can't fail. When you're, like, talking to your friends about this thing that someday you're gonna do. None of that is very vulnerable. The vulnerability starts the minute you go, I'm gonna do it. Like, I'm gonna put it out there. I'm gonna take the step. I'm gonna launch the thing. I'm gonna try to Sell it. I'm gonna raise my hand and actually, like, take the job, whatever. Move to the new city, whatever the actual leap is, is an incredibly vulnerable moment because that's when you can fail. Like, that's when you can do it. And it was harder than you thought, or what you were dreaming about and planning all went to the crapper because you didn't. These six factors or the thing that you thought was going to make you really happy and really fulfilled, you actually started doing it. And you realize, like, oh, whoa. Like, this isn't where I want to be. This isn't life giving to me. And that's a very, very vulnerable place to be. And so I say this to say, have grace on yourself. Like, wanting to stay in Preparation land is like a. That you're just trying to keep yourself safe. And that's, like, sweet and really kind of the part of you that's trying to protect you from pain, from failure, from humiliation, from feeling those unsafe feelings. But sometimes we're a little bit overprotective of ourselves. And that part of you that's trying to protect you from failure is also the thing that's going to ultimately, I believe, keep you from experiencing wild versions of success that are unimaginable to you, because she's trying to keep you safe where you are. And so there will just come a point in your journey. And my experience is it is very rare to meet somebody who jumps into doing too early versus somebody who stays in planning and research for too long. And even by research, y'all, I don't even mean, like, you know, biomedical research or research, like, if through an entrepreneurial lens. But we're, like, constantly doing research. We're, like, watching other people and watching their lives, and how is it playing out for them? Like, that's kind of what I mean by, like, research. You're kind of on the sidelines. You're trying to take in data and information to make a good decision for yourself. But I think the vast majority of people that are listening to this, because this is how the vast majority of the population operates, is that we just stay in that place too long because it. It keeps us safe. And so I think for me, kind of asking myself the question regularly of, like, what are the things that I'm sitting on that It's. It's time. It's like, go time. And I will tell you, I've done some things. I had an idea, and for years, it just kind of, like, sat in the back of my mind as, like, an interesting opportunity again. This is in the realm of entrepreneurship, but it doesn't need to be this. And I finally did it. I finally did it. And I was like, you just need to give it a go. And it did not work. It didn't work. It didn't pencil. And it didn't even. Like, it didn't do for me what I thought it was going to do. Like, I thought it was going to be this really interesting, fun creative outlet and project. And very quickly, once I got past the start and launch phase, I was like, I don't. I don't want to do that.
- [39:48]
A
Wait, are you going to tell us what it is?
- [39:50]
B
Oh, it was like an E Comm. Like, I'm not only because I don't want to get mired in the details. It's, like, very entrepreneurial. Okay. And so I want people to stay in the place of like, yeah. So for me, it was a business idea. So I could look at that and go, what a waste funk cost. Like, I could literally tally up the amount of hours that I spent for years thinking about it. But then probably in the building phase for about six months, hundreds and hundreds of hours. And within a month or two, I was like, what am I doing? I'm chasing the wrong thing. Like, this isn't where I want to be focusing my time and my energy. And it would be very easy to be like, I made a mistake, that was a failure. And actually, like, that's fine. I'm. I'm actually fine with, like, whatever we can call it whatever we want. I will tell you the peace in my body and in my mind that I have, having completely removed that thing from the shelf because I tried it and because it didn't work, it didn't pencil out on multiple different levels. On a financial level, it didn't pencil out. And on, like, a. A personal life, fulfillment, happiness thing, it didn't pencil out. We are so bogged down. Like, we are heavy. The shelves in our bodies and our minds with all of the things that maybe we could do or could try or that would make us happier, more successful, can really weigh on us. And when you take something on your shelf and you go, you know what? You get to come out of the shelf. Like, you get to go out into the world today. Even when it doesn't work, work. It is a gift because you go, like, I no longer have to wonder, what if I no longer have this thing that I'm like, I don't know, maybe I should have tried that. Was that a missed opportunity? Blah, blah, blah, blah, and to me, that feels like an absolute gift. And one of my goals is just to get to the end of my life with as little things on my shelf that I'm going. Like, I wonder if I would have tried that, if it would have worked. I wonder if I would have given myself the freedom or the opportunity to explore that, if it would have been good for me, if I would have been healthier or happier or been able to make the world a better place in some sort of interesting way. And I. I kind of want to die empty in that way of just kind of like I. When they came to me, I gave them the time that they deserved and I put them out into the world and either they grew and they flourished or they shriveled up really fast. But at least we knew and at least I tried. And so I think regret is probably one of the most power. Regret and jealousy are the two emotions that I think get. We call them, like negative emotions. It's like, oh, you want to kind of like. Like, you know, avoid those things. And I think jealousy and regret are our two. Two of our greatest teachers. Like, if you're experiencing regret or jealousy, do not beat yourself up for that. And being like, stop being jealous. Or like, live in the moment and don't, don't regret. No regrets. And it's kind of like, oh, no, those are trying to teach you something. Your jealousy, all it's showing you is that you have an unmet desire or longing. That's what it's showing you. And what a beautiful gift. Like, we are taught. Especially, like I grew up in kind of more of like a Christian faith tradition. And so I feel were the things that were taught, it's like, that's bad. And we just called it bad and said, don't do it. As opposed to going like, oh, every time you experience the emotion of jealousy, that's trying to tell you something. Give it the time of day to go, what is it like? What is that unmet longing that you have that when you see somebody else living that out, it creates a sense of pain and like, give that the time of day. Ask the question, go down that road with your jealousy. Go, do I really want that? What would that life actually look like? What would I have to give up in order to have what he or she has? Is that a sacrifice? I'm actually willing to. And sometimes you're going to get to the end of your. Like, go, why? Why? Why? Why? And you're going to get to the end of the road and you'll Go, oh, I actually don't even think I want what they have. And then there might be other times. You go, no, I do. I think that's who I was created to be. And like, she or he has a gift that he is living out in the world and I'm not, and I'm not utilizing it. And you know what? I'm going to do something about it. I'm not just going to sit here and be jealous and be like, I don't get that. Like, I'm going to go out and I'm going to try strive for it. And I feel the same thing with regret. I think regret is a really powerful emotion. And when I experience regret, when I make a wrong call about how I'm spending my time or my energy, instead of just feeling like shame or guilt that I made a mistake or that I wasted time or whatever it is, I'm going, like, what is the value that you are? Like you, you valued something incorrectly. You, you made a wrong decision because you're experiencing regret. Get. So let's actually dive into that and figure it out. Like, what was the value proposition that you got wrong so that you can take that with you going forward? And I would say I attempt to live a life that is not marked by a lack of failure, but by a lack of regret. Because that means I'm making decisions that are kind of like values aligned. And I can go, hey, even if I mess up, even if I fail, even if it doesn't work out, I'm not going to regret that I didn't try.
- [44:43]
A
And the only way that you can do that is if you're not in preparation land. Because there's so many ideas that come to you and if you're gonna go, you gotta go, you gotta go do them. And this circles back to having imagination, having curiosity. I want to read a couple other things from this chapter. I thought it was so good.
- [44:58]
B
I can say to my new Samsung Galaxy S25 Ultra, hey, find a keto friendly restaurant nearby and text it to Beth and Steve. And it does without me lifting a finger so I can get in more squats anywhere I can. 1, 2, 3. Will that be cash or credit? Credit.
- [45:15]
A
4 Galaxy S25 Ultra. The AI companion that does the heavy lifting. So you can do. You get yours@samsung.com compatible select apps requires Google Gemini account. Results may vary based on input. Check responses for accuracy. The Jack Welch Management Institute at Strayer University helps you go from I know the way to I've arrived with our top 10 ranked online MBA. Gain skills you can learn today and apply tomorrow. Get ready to go from make it happen to made it happen and keep striving. Visit strayer.edu Jack WelchMBA to learn more. Strayer University is certified to operate in Virginia by Chevin as many campuses, including at 2121 15th Street north in Arlington, Virginia. Get the Angel Reef Special at McDonald's.
- [45:59]
B
Now let's break it down.
- [46:00]
A
My favorite barbecue sauce, American cheese, crispy bacon, pickles, apples, onions and a sesame seed bun, of course. And don't forget the fries and the drinks. Sound good? I participate in restaurants for a limited time. We're told our whole lives, the more time we spend prepping and preparing, the better the outcome will be. You're talking about Seth Godin here. He proposes that unless you absolutely need to be an expert and you're actually willing to put in decades of work to get to expert status, you should just do the beginner stuff and stop screwing around, make it good enough and ship it. Here's a good question. What is the least amount of time, energy, resources I can put into this concept or dream or ideal before I can put it out into the universe? And then you start getting actual feedback. This is really good stuff, like you even talked about. In particular, you put up this website, you're trying to sell these sandals and you put up the website and it doesn't work to people can't just buy it. At the beginning it would be like call me, right? Like you hit add to cart and instead of just putting in your code.
- [47:06]
B
I couldn't afford for somebody to build me a website and so I had to build it myself. And this was before, like kids have it so easy these days with the Shopify and the Squarespaces. We didn't have that back in my day. So I was like, I have to build it myself because I can't afford, I literally don't have money to pay somebody. And I could get far enough where I could like get, get the pictures and the words on a screen, but like I'm not being able to code like payment processing options into my website. And so I, I added an image just like a JPEG of add to cart and then I programmed it so that when you press add to cart, a little box popped up and it said to call me. And I just put my cell phone number on the box. And so I, I lived like a year of my life where every time the phone rang and it was an unknown number, I just like ran into a closet or tried to get somebody Somewhere very quiet. And I would answer the phone very professionally, like, hi, this is Liz Bohannon with Seiko Designs. How may I help you? And I would get somebody on the other line going like, hi, yeah, my name's Susan, and I'm interested in buying a pair of sandals. I'll be like, great, yes, you've come to the right place. So, yes, that would be definitely an example of not waiting until it's perfect and just getting it out into the universe before you're ready.
- [48:25]
A
None of it was perfect, but it was good enough to get us going. Good things are not built in hours or days or weeks, but in years and decades, with joy and sorrow, with laughter and tears, with answers you will come to believe deep in your soul and questions that will ultimately demand your surrender. I found the part that I was talking about earlier. You wrote, your entire dream will feel like it's coming crashing down around you a thousand times, and then the sun will rise every time. If you're not utterly humiliating yourself on a semi regular basis, you're not stretching enough. Keep stretching. It's good stuff. It's good stuff. So there's 14 of these principles in here. I want to talk about one other thing that I had never, ever heard of, and it makes so much sense. It's so hard to do. The Benjamin Franklin effect.
- [49:12]
B
Oh, let's talk about this. This is one of my favorite concepts in life. You want to tell the people about the Benjamin Franklin effect?
- [49:20]
A
I want you to. But I want to read this one sentence. When we help someone out, whether we like them or not, it makes us feel like we like them more. That's life changing. All right, so tell us about this Benjamin Franklin effect. This is a big deal.
- [49:36]
B
This is a big deal. So I actually might need your help because I'm. It's the actual psychological thing that's happening that I talk about in that study. I'm like, forgetting the name of it. It's something about affiliation. I'll pull it up. Okay, okay, okay. We don't. We don't have to talk about the tech.
- [49:51]
A
There's this big thing about, like, all we want to help. And you're. You've got a big thing about community and relationships, and this is really important. And you have amazing stories in this book about, you know, the person that you met that you go to the theater with, and you get sick in a foreign country, and this person helps you out, and you're building these teams. This is part of being an entrepreneur. So community relationships is, as a really Important piece to you. And I think in the world, we hate to ask for help. We want to be the one who gives help, and in doing so, we think that's gonna gain favor and goodwill. And. But I'm trying to see if I see the actual.
- [50:29]
B
Okay, I can explain it without it. So that the legend, why they call it the Benjamin Franklin effect is because supposedly Benjamin Franklin had, like, a political adversary, somebody that he wanted to kind of win over and be friends with. When we think about wanting people to like us. You're exactly right, Jenny. Oftentimes, and this is pretty specific in different cultures and America is the furthest extreme of valuing independence and not wanting to ask for help. So we have, like, this social construct. We kind of think like, I have a bank, I have a bank, and I'm trying to, like, build up my bank. And anytime I ask for help, I'm actually, like, using my social capital. I'm, like, spending it, and I have less now I'm asking for people for favors. They're not going to like me. They're not going to want to be around me. The actual social science shows this. So the story with Benjamin Franklin, because instead of approaching this guy and being like, how can I help you? How can I serve you? What do you need? He asked him for a favor. He asked him for a favor. He had, like, some book in his library that Benjamin Franklin didn't have. And so he asked his adversary, he said, may I borrow your book? And the adversary said, yes. And so Benjamin Franklin took the book, he read the book, and then he returned the book with, like, a very generous thank you note, like, thank you for helping me out and doing me a favor. And the legend goes that that was, like, the beginning of kind of the turning of their relationship and into friendship. The social scientists have kind of taken this concept and they've validated it. There was this really fascinating study where they had three different groups of people that were doing, like, a. A social study. And the person who was, like, running the study, I can't even remember what. They were asking to do some exercise that they were having people do. And at the very end of it, they had this guy who was kind of like, running the experiment come in. And in one of the instances, he, like, paid the people for participating. In another instance, he was like, hey, instead of giving you the. The prize or the money that you earned, the university actually is, like, not well funded, and the university would really like that money back. It was kind of this, like, ambiguous, like, will you help the University out. And then in the third scenario, the person that was like leading the experiment was like, hey, I, I'm so passionate about this topic and I haven't gotten the funding I need and I really want to like continue doing this experiment. Would you be willing to actually just give your prize money back so that I can keep the experiment going? Okay, so those were kind of like the three different groups of people that they did. And then what they measured was the participants perspective or view of the guy who was leading the experiment. In the one where people just got paid, it was kind of like neutral, like, it was just kind of like, okay, he's fine in the one where he asked for the money, but in kind of like a cold, not personal, not vulnerable, like it's on behalf of somebody else. I think his likability went down a little bit actually. But in the third group where he was like, this is my dream and I'm passionate about it and would you like, participate with me in this way that will require you to sacrifice something? His likeability scores actually rose because people want to be a part of something. Like, people want to be invited into something. People like being around people who are like, passionate about a cause and feeling like my participation matters, my presence matters. And in American culture, we are so obsessed with independence that we feel so much shame for reaching out for help. But that actually creates this sense of like, affiliation, affection for somebody. You feel a sense of closeness when you help somebody out. And here's the second thing that it does that I think is actually even more important when you ask for help. Asking other people to show up for you is actually far and away the most effective way to become somebody that other people will ask for help. So we have this idea of like, I want to be helpful. I want my friends to call on me when they're in trouble, when they need help. Like, I want to be that person. I, I love being a helper, I love serving. I love being somebody that people feel like they can call on for help. Yet meanwhile, we are literally doing everything we can to never have to ask our friends for help. So you're saying you want to be somebody who asks for help, but the life that you're actually living is one that makes everybody around you go, well, like, she always has it together, she never needs help. I can't ask her for help. Literally, the first time you ask somebody for a favor, like let's say, hey, I am. Oh my gosh, my flight got delayed and I thought I was going to get home in Time to pick up my kids from school. And I'm not. And I am in a huge pickle. And I'm calling you and I'm realizing, like, it's a big ask, could you go get my kids from school and can they hang out at your house for 30 minutes? Okay, I'm telling you, you could offer to watch somebody's kid 100 times. And that is not as powerful as asking them to watch your kids the next time they are in a pickle. And the next time they're like, flight delayed over scheduled, miss the thing, who are they going to think of to call? They're going to think of their one friend that actually reached out to them and asked them for a pretty big favor. You broke the seal. You went like, it's okay to need help. And actually, like, you gave permission for me to ask you for help when you called up me and asked me for help. That is actually how we create the relationships that I believe we. We desperately long for. Like, we are in the midst of a loneliness epidemic in America. Our rates of loneliness, of isolation, of people living in social unhealth are higher than they've been in the history of the world. And yet we're more connected than we've ever been. I know more about what is going on in more people's lives than any human has in the history of the world. Yet we feel lonelier than ever. And it's because we don't have the types of relationships where we feel like we can be authentic, where we can show up, where we can ask for help. And that leads to a deep level of psychological unsafety of going, I'm all alone in the world. I have to figure it out. I have to not make mistakes. I have to get my act together. Because if I show my weakness, if I show my cards, if I show up vulnerably, if I need to ask other people for help, it's going to be embarrassing. I'm going to be seen as a burden or as a hot mess. So I am just going to desperately be over here trying to solve all of my problems and not needing to ask for help or showing my cards when I get in over my head. And what that is actually doing is creating an entire country and community of people who are desperately, desperately alone. And we think we're going to get unlonely by just like, offering more help. But part of it is actually by going first. You go first and ask for help. You go first and tell the truth about that. You're struggling with your kid who's struggling in school or about your marriage and it's like not going well, or about the financial insecurity you're experiencing and why you're laying awake at night. Like, when you go first, first vulnerably to share your burdens, to share your authentic story, and sometimes to ask for help, even if that help is just like, will you be here with me in this? Like, will you just sit with me in the mess of what, like, I'm experiencing? You are actually giving other people the permission to do the same. And that is what creates the bonds and the relationships that make us wake up in the morning and go, I might not have it all together and I'm gonna drop some balls and I'm gonna mess it up. But when I do, I know I'm, I'm safe and I know I'm loved and I know I'm cared for and I know I've got this kind of army of people around me who are going to have my backs and show up for me. And that is how we solve for loneliness.
- [57:55]
A
Wow, Liz, wow. I mean this is, it's, it's jaw dropping. Asking for help makes people like us less and giving help makes people like us more, Right? Wrong. Wrong. Someone who does you a favor will feel more fondly toward you and therefore be more likely to help you out in the future. Affection and favors go together. It's incredible. I got so much out of this book. Beginner's pluck. You have your fantastic podcast, the Plucking up podcast. You also keynote around the world a serial social entrepreneur, the founder of Seiko Designs, and a partner and chief growth officer at Noonday Collection. I'll put all the links in the show. Notes. Bestselling author, beginners Pluck. I already read this. I already read the subtitle. Host of the all right, I'm saying all the same things. I've already said a shot after a keynote speaker inspiring and equipping over 1 million leaders in over 110 countries to build workplace cultures of purpose, impact and connection. What an honor. Liz. We always wrap up with the same question. That will be real quick. The last question is what's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside?
- [59:00]
B
A favorite memory from my childhood outside would be in grade school. I had a. Both of my parents worked full time and so in the summers we were home on our own for most of the weekdays and my little sister and I built a tree house by ourselves in our backyard in like. And we lived in the suburbs like. But we had a little kind of bit of woods behind our house. And my mom set the rule. It was like, no power tools. You can't use power tools when I'm away. But everything else is, you know, up for. Up for grabs. And it was the crappy. A spittle. It was basically like a platform in the trees. It was not well made. It was not fancy. But I will say the, like, joy that we got from building it, you know, my sister's probably in grade school, and I was in middle school, so these two, like, grade school, middle school girls who, like, built their own tree house, which was really like a tree platform, essentially. We spent so many hours outside in that thing. We would spend the night out there together and have, like, sleepovers and. And I loved that memory. I felt so empowered and so connected with nature. My mom would come out on the back deck sometimes I would sleep out there on school nights, and she would let me. And she would come out and wake me up with a whistle. And so memories of sleeping outside in my treehouse that I built with my own two hands, even though it was really crappy, is one of my favorite childhood memories of being outside.
- [60:22]
A
Liz, I love it. What an honor to have this conversation. Thank you so much for being here.
- [60:26]
B
Thanks, Ginny.