← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
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- [00:01]
Unknown Speaker
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- [01:03]
Jenny Yurch
Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Yurch. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and I just read a book I absolutely love. I love it so, so, so much. It's called the fix how the 12 steps offer a surprising path of transformation for the well adjusted, the down and out, and everyone in between. And the author, Ian Kron is here. Welcome, Ian.
- [01:23]
Ian Cron
Thank you so much. Glad to be here.
- [01:25]
Jenny Yurch
Okay, so I have to tell you this story before we kick it off. I. I've always been scared of enneagram. I don't know, the word just kind of freaked me out. And I was like, we did Myers Briggs in high school. I was like, that's good enough. Then all of a sudden, Enneagram came around and everyone was asking and I was like, I don't know. I don't even know how to pronounce a word. I don't know what my number is. But so many people asked. So finally I was like, I'm going to do an online thing. Which you actually have a new online assessment, so maybe yours will be better. But I did the online thing. Finally. I was like, I'll just be able to tell people what my number is. And so then I posted that I was a 2 Wing 7. And then I got lambasted online.
- [02:05]
Ian Cron
Oops. Oops.
- [02:08]
Jenny Yurch
It was a big oops, apparently. So then I threw in the towel and then I was down the daystar Clinic with David Thomas and Sissy Goff. I'm not sure if you know them, but they've got this Raising Boys and girls podcast. And they asked me, this was just a couple months ago, what is your Enneagram? And I was like, yeah, I've had a bad experience. And they said, well, the best book that you could ever read about it is by Ian Kron, the Road Back to you. So I bought it immediately. Here we are. And I still don't totally know. I think I'm a 2, but also a 7. Anyway, I want people to know that you have over 13,000Amazon reviews from this book. If An Enneagram Journey to Self Discovery. And so I already had experience with you. It was so cool. And then I got a chance to read the Fix. I'm like, I already know who this guy is. Over a million copies sold of the Road Back to you. So this is such an honor. Thank you so much for being here.
- [03:02]
Ian Cron
Wow. I wish I could start every day with somebody pumping me up like that. That would be helpful.
- [03:07]
Jenny Yurch
Tell us where people can find the new Enneagram assessment.
- [03:10]
Ian Cron
They can just go to ianmorgankron.com I A N M O R G A N kron.com we spent a ton of money because, you know, there's a lot of actually not well constructed Enneagram tests out there. So we used a research psychologist and their team to put together one that was highly reliable and valid. You get between an 18 and probably 25 page report on the back end. Uh, it identifies wings, it identifies subtype, you know, and really describes your type in detail, like, specific to you. Yeah, I'm super stoked. It's called the Typology Institute Enneagram Assessment.
- [03:48]
Jenny Yurch
That's awesome. So cool. I know people will really like that resource and they. And they maybe have already even read the book. So then I get this book to fix and this is what I wrote when I. When I was done. This book is so good. I wish I had more than an hour with you. I think I could talk about it all day. I could tell you've read so much and I really loved that you included all of these, like, quotes of wisdom from your friends, from these people who have been through the 12 step program with you. I thought, oh, that's never in a book. Really. It's always like, you know, you had both, like, it's always like this philosopher and, and this author and this person and then. But you were also like this. These friends and the words of wisdom were so deep and I just liked it so much. It was like very entertaining reading. And I've actually always wondered about this because there is this program and I can't even remember what it's called but like you can do. It's called like pre covery which is supposed to be, we only went one time but like you're supposed to be able to take your kids and sort of teach them in a way so that they don't end up in sort of this addiction cycle. And so I've always been interested in the 12 steps but didn't really know too much about them. And I, and I agree with you. It's like there's so much to be addicted to these days. And I thought this is the most brilliant book. There is so much to be addicted to. There are so much for our kids to be addicted to. You wrote there are a bajillion self medicating behaviors. We're all addicts. And you go through this list. I'm going to ask you a question in just a minute. I'm blubbering because I really liked the book so much. I've got so many notes here. Here's what you wrote. We've become technology addicts, control addicts, Internet addicts, relationship addicts, people pleasing addicts, alcohol and drug addicts, drama addicts, video game junkies, sugar addicts, sex addicts, social media addicts, perfectionism addicts. I'm not going to read the whole thing. It just goes on and on. Workaholics, fantasy addicts, love addicts, rage addicts, addict to compulsively fix other people's problems. Approval junkies, compulsive liars, Caffeine addicts. Cue grimace. And it's funny. This is such a good book. Nicotine addicts. I still miss it because you, you incorporate your own story in here. Worry addicts, compulsive helpers, news and politics, addicts, money insecurity, addicts, popularity addicts. And the list just goes on and on and on. And so this is a book for everyone. You write we're all addicts. Do you think that most people believe that?
- [06:02]
Ian Cron
No, I think that although it's interesting whenever I'm with a speaking live about this and I say you all know we're all addicts, right? And most people just sort of nod their head yes, like but they also have that look like I think that's true but I've never actually said it out loud, you know. And you know, look, here's the thing, like Gerald May is a great Christian psychiatrist. He said, to be alive is to be addicted, and to be alive and addicted is to stand in need of grace, like unhealthy attachments to people, substances or behaviors that we turn to to solve problems inside of us and we continue doing, though they have negative consequences on our well being. I mean, that's just a typical addiction cycle. Look, even if you don't identify as an addict, you could read this book and derive tremendous benefit from just working the 12 steps. Like that was the whole point of the book. The subtitle is how the 12 steps offer a surprising path of transformation for the well adjusted, the down and out, and everyone in between. So we have the stories of tens of millions of people whose lives have been revolutionized by the 12 steps. And I'm like, why doesn't everybody do these? Like, why can't everybody have these benefits? Part of the problem is, is that people think the steps are just for people who have severe addiction problems. And it's like, actually that's not what the 12 steps are about. The 12 steps are about helping people mend and deepen their relationship with God, themselves and others. So people at 12 steps meetings don't sit around talking about how not to drink or drug or overeat or, you know, whatever. No, they're talking about how do I get closer to God, myself and others in such a way that it renders my need for outside help, quote unquote, unnecessary. I mean, they're for everybody. For as a spiritual growth tool, they're for everybody.
- [08:04]
Jenny Yurch
And I think as a parent, especially because we're in this world that, I mean, you had written, like, we have normalized and pedal addictive fixes. So we're talking about, you know, screens. And I talked to this man named Dr. Nicholas Carderis who wrote, wrote some fabulous books. One's called Glow Kids and one is called Digital Madness. But he's talking about how our prefrontal cortex and our brains are changing because of all the screens and the less attention span and all these things. And he said our brakes are missing. You know, for a lot of people, our brakes are missing. So there's more chance to fall into addictive patterns these days just because of the way that society is operating. And so I think for a parent to read this as a tool to use with their kids, I think is really important too. We live in a culture that normalizes and pedals addictive fixes. And advertisers and marketers have it down to a science. They know exactly how to hook us into believing their product or service will finally provide the fix for inner turmoil. So this is a book for everyone. And you talk about, you know, we're drinking from the wrong well, we're looking for this fix. The book is called the Fix. We're looking for the fix, but it's not working. And so we're just always searching and searching and searching for little hits of pleasure. My drug of choice is food. And I have tried to, like, I've only been doing it for two weeks, but not eat past 7:00. And I was like, this is really a window into how I use food for. As a stimulant. You know, I'm trying to get this done or that done and I don't have it. And I was like, oh, gosh. You know, so it's like this inner turmoil. You talk about having a hard childhood, growing up and having, you know, family things and people were drinkers, and you went down that path and stopped. And then decades later, it just reared its head again with Adderall.
- [09:51]
Ian Cron
Well, Adderall and Xanax and Klonopin. Yeah.
- [09:55]
Jenny Yurch
Can you tell us that story? I think you wrote, the reappearance of unruly ghosts from a difficult childhood, which I thought I'd put to rest, once again surfaced in my heart. And you wrote, the little addict inside my head awoke from decades of hibernation without any premeditation. You are. I went fishing. You're at the doctor, you see these pills are out, and you're kind of like, I could probably fake that I have ADHD in order to get those pills. What happened?
- [10:22]
Ian Cron
Well, I mean, look, here's the thing. I first was introduced to the 12 steps many years ago when I had an alcohol problem. And a therapist who's like, you gotta get help, right? So I went to 12 step meetings, but I like to say I just audited the class. You know what I mean? Like, I wasn't really taking it for grades. It wasn't a conscious decision. I didn't actually even know I was doing that, you know, But I got enough from it that it expelled my need to drink, right? And then I basically stopped for decades. And I would periodically, you know, go back for a meeting or two every year or two. And. And then, you know, I have this face plant moment. And this time around, I really threw myself in. I started taking the course for credit, and I discovered, oh, my gosh, these steps are amazing. Like, what they offer us isn't just a way out of compulsive. Behaviors, they offer a way of life. The steps are a way of life. There's something you live every day. They derive from a Christian organization called the Oxford group 90 years ago, and since then, they've just helped tens of millions of people find a kind of life that they never knew was possible. So let's. By the way, thank you for your vulnerability. About the eating thing. Can I talk to you about it for a second?
- [11:39]
Jenny Yurch
Yeah.
- [11:40]
Ian Cron
Okay. So when a person overeats, it's like going to the hardware store to buy bread. You're in the wrong place. So you actually don't have an eating problem, Jenny. You have an eating solution. Okay, so let's just take the word problem out and just replace it with the word solution. You are experiencing distress in some other area of your life, and it may be born of trauma, childhood stuff. You know, it may involve all kinds of.
- [12:11]
Jenny Yurch
In my particular situation, and I know you're talking about this in general, but in my particular situation, I know what it is. We have five kids. We're homeschooling. We had a huge turnover during COVID Such an interesting thing. It's, like, been five years, but it, like, really upended our family in terms of business, and so we ended up becoming entrepreneurs, like, overnight. When I was homeschooling, and now I'm an entrepreneur. I've got a top three parenting podcast. I have no idea what I'm doing. I talk to these authors, which is amazing. But I, you know, I have no training in anything that I'm doing. We have no team. And I wake up every single morning panicked with the amount of things that I need to get done and the amount of time that there is to do it.
- [12:55]
Ian Cron
Okay, take a breath. And actually, I'm looking in your face, and I can tell, actually, that you're, as you even describe it to me, you're becoming emotionally, like, activated. Right? Yep. Yeah. So thank you for being willing to share that with me and let me see that. So be kind to yourself. Eating is a solution to your pain. You're in pain. And if I were to dig down underneath that pain, it's about more than just I'm stressed about, you know, work and life. Although that's part of it for sure. Right. There's other stuff underneath that. Right. Like the fear of failure, the fear of, oh, I'm in an opportunity moment, and I'm going to drop the ball and it's going to pass and it'll never come back. You know what I mean? Like anxiety. I'm sure if you are an enneagram too. There's some, there's some well of sadness in you that you're carrying that maybe you've never really been able to look at and address. So eating becomes a solution to the, that pain in your life. But here's the deal. It ultimately your solution will become a bigger problem than the problem it's trying to solve. Yeah, because you start gaining weight, then you lose self respect and then you're, you feel helpless and you feel powerless and you. Right, and now, now you got two problems, right? You've got the overeating problem and you've got the other problem that is trying to solve. And it's now, now you're in kind of a, a hail storm of stuff, right? What the steps do actually is help you address the real problem so that the, the solution, you know, AKA food will no longer be necessary. So the guy who came up with the steps said, let you know all compulsive or addictive behaviors are principally spiritual maladies. That's the term he used. It's a spiritual malady. You're trying to solve a problem on your own unaided willpower, when the only thing that's going to solve that problem is a, a kind of relationship with God that you can surrender yourself to and allow him to do for you what you can't do for yourself.
- [15:20]
Jenny Yurch
It's so good. I thought that the book is worth buying even if it was just for your morning prayer and meditation routine. I thought, you know, to have the verbiage there and to have the walkthrough of what you do. And I found this to be very impactful. This Deliver me prayer. Deliver me from the need of being praised, the need of being honored, the need of being preferred, the need of being consulted, the need of being approved, the need of being right, the need of comfort and ease. Deliver me from the fear of being humiliated, the fear of being criticized, the fear of being passed over, the fear of being forgotten, the fear of being lonely, the fear of being hurt, the fear of suffering is really, really incredible. You talked about the power of repetition. I have this part dog eared, but I just thought it was so beautiful and something that someone could, you know, practically take with them. And I know there's a workbook too that people can work through. I mean, I just, I loved it. I got so, so much out of the book.
- [16:23]
Unknown Speaker
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- [17:51]
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- [18:59]
Jenny Yurch
That's better.
- [19:00]
Unknown Speaker
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- [20:21]
Jenny Yurch
Quite quince.com outside I was gonna ask you about the God piece because we're a Christian family and I don't know who listens in. I don't know who listens in. You never really know, I guess, who listens in. But I thought it was a really gracious way that you framed it in this book where you talk about, you know, you have to let go and let God. People have heard that statement. But you use the phrase spiritually skittish. Spiritually skittish. I thought, wow, it's a really good phrase. And we've had some, and actually fairly recently, some very nasty experiences at a local church. And so you talk about people who come to this 12 step program. They're addicted and then they're kind of mad. They think they've been scammed because they're like, well, wait a minute. You tell me I can't get unscrewed unless I believe in some cosmic delusion. I would have dropped out of this program weeks ago if I had known the God train was coming. But like, you're so gracious with it. Like, God doesn't wear A watch. He has all the time in the world. He doesn't even care if you use his name. And I don't know if I've ever read anything like that.
- [21:32]
Ian Cron
So I like to. You know, I always tell people, like, I'm not sure where this came from, but I like to keep the door into faith as wide as I possibly can. And, you know, some people have to approach spirituality and faith. Everybody has their own path. And for some people, it's going to be baby steps. And I'm like, I'm just somebody who, like, doesn't make demands or try to whip people into. Some do this fast. You know, it's like, if you can't do it fast, don't worry. God's patient. Just, here's what you need in the spiritual life. Honesty, openness, and willingness. I mean, just be willing. So I'm like. Like, if I'm working with someone in, like, with counseling, you know, I'll be like, now listen, would you just be willing to believe that there's a power greater than you that could restore you to sanity? Like, we don't have to name who it is yet. We don't. Like, could you just find yourself being willing? And, you know, what does scripture say? Scripture says for those who seek, they'll find. Like. Like, I mean, I don't have to, like, you know, day one, go, you gotta get Jesus in your heart. It's like, man, you know, some people, I'm like, a little bit more like, that's gonna be too fat, too much, too fast, or they've got some trauma in their background around that kind of language. I'm more like, all right, what would happen if you just told your conception of God? I'm willing to believe. Can you help me go even deeper? You know, I'm open to faith. And by the way, people who are Christians, they make these assumptions that, oh, I've got that all buttoned up now. I've already taken care of all that. And I'm like, really? If I really looked at your life, would I see a person whose life is really surrendered to God's will? For you, we're all in this journey of coming to believe.
- [23:20]
Jenny Yurch
I love that you wrote that. I've been following Jesus for a long time, and I'm still coming to believe.
- [23:26]
Ian Cron
Yeah, I mean, I. I suppose I've given complete, I think, intellectual ascent to faith. But the actual experience, the lived experience of faith, I'm still coming to believe. Still learning to let go and trust, still in the process of daily surrender, you know, spiritual growth. There are no hacks. There are just no hacks. And it takes a minute. It just takes a minute. And, you know, you have to be patient with yourself, as patient with yourself as God is.
- [24:00]
Jenny Yurch
When I said at the beginning, I really liked how you had these things that you read in books. Obviously, you're extremely well read and you've got a whole shelves and shelves of books behind you. But then you would say, I learned this from my friend or from my sponsor, Steve. And one of the friends said, love always stoops. So he wrote, God isn't proud. And I thought, oh, I've never heard that either. What do you mean by that?
- [24:23]
Ian Cron
Well, listen, when I say love always stoops, what I'm saying is God is always reaching down to us. We think we're initiating a relationship with God, but that's actually not true. God is always the initiator. So, all right, let's just take the food thing for an example again. Sorry, but I'm going to run with it. So what if you began to understand your struggle with food as an invitation from God to a relationship with him that is more intimate than you ever knew was possible before? What if you didn't look at it as some kind of crime against humanity but began to view it as like, hey, guess what? Maybe this is God's nudge to say, what if you started to look to me to get your needs met rather than to, you know, whatever your addictive or compulsive behaviors are. What if you began to look to me? So I have this prayer, and I think I mentioned in the book, which is, God help me to find in you what I look for in blank. And for a lot of people, we'd say, God, help me to look for in you what I. What I look for in compulsive people pleasing. Help me to find in you what I look for in my addictive, dysfunctional relationship with so and so help me to find in you what I look for in success and money and being a workaholic. And, you know, in other words, what. What if we just began to just face up to the fact that we all have these weird prescribed strategies for making our lives more workable that are making them less manageable actually. You know, addiction and attachments, unhealthy relationships with people or substances or behaviors, just part of the human condition, but they have negative consequences for us spiritually and practically.
- [26:17]
Jenny Yurch
You had written, and I thought this was interesting because, like, okay, so we talk about food as an example, I'm reading This book, it's called the Dorito Effect and it's about how natural flavors, which are on a label, but they're not really natural, they're chemicals. Like the Dorito is meant to trick our brain into because of the high amount of taste. And, and then we've got these screens and our brakes are broken and we don't have as much self control as we used to. And so we look at today's world and there's just a lot of ways and opportunities to sort of fall into addiction. But then you talk about, it was really interesting in the Bible and then you're talking about the prodigal son, which that appears to also be an addiction, like a spending addiction. You know, he goes and spends all the money, right? And he, and he leaves and he parties. But then you wrote that the brother was also an addict too. So I would love to talk about that. I thought that was really interesting. It's really a two part thing. This is a human problem, it's not new. And also no one ever talks about the brother.
- [27:15]
Ian Cron
Yeah, well, actually, I mean, here's the deal. That should not be called the parable of the prodigal son. That should be called the parable of the elder son. Because that's who Jesus was actually addressing in the audience. He wasn't talking to pr, you know, he was talking to the religious leaders in the room who were the elder sons who were, you know, how can you love these broken sinners, Jesus? And you hang out with them and you eat with them and you preach to them. When we've, when, you know, we've been here the whole time doing all this hard work, trying to be religious. That's a religion addiction actually, you know, like when you meet people who are like that and usually a sign of a religious addiction is self righteousness. Like those people and us people, you know, I, I think like that story to me is just like magical. It's so unbelievably great. All the things, all the things that are going on in that simple story, but that, you know, that guy's addicted to his own self righteousness, to his own efforts to make himself a good person, which is not what the gospel says we're supposed to be doing. You know, he's addicted to twisted thinking about the nature of God and God, you know, he's thinking that God is a withholder of love, which isn't true. The elder son in many ways is in more trouble than the prodigal. That's the message of that story. The elder son is in more trouble than the prodigal is the elder one.
- [28:38]
Jenny Yurch
Is the one who stayed at the younger one, is the one who went out, ended up eating the pig's food, and came home.
- [28:44]
Ian Cron
Yeah, absolutely.
- [28:45]
Jenny Yurch
Is it like the person who put in the subheadings? Like, someone called it the prodigal son?
- [28:50]
Ian Cron
Yeah, someone just. Yeah, someone dividing up chapters. Right. I mean, I think it should be called the parable of the older son, because that's. That's the guy who has more problems ultimately.
- [28:59]
Jenny Yurch
Wow.
- [29:00]
Ian Cron
The prodigal son figures out, oh, my gosh, if I need to surrender, I need to give up. I'm. I'm out of ammo. And he comes back in this place of brokenness and throws himself at the father's mercy. The older son is still trying to justify himself. I'm a really good son. Look at everything I've done. When you meet a Christian who's resentful at some level that God is not showing up for them, like, I don't know. I've heard this before from people in counseling. I'm mad at God. Okay, tell me why you're mad at God. Well, because I. You know, all my life I've gone to church and I've given, and I go to Bible study and I pray and I do all this stuff. But now I've got this kid who's got all these problems. Why? As if God was in a bargain with them. And I'm like, okay, well, you sound a little bit like the older son. Like, you've just felt like, if I was a good person, then God owes me. That's not the gospel. Right. That is actually in opposition to what the gospel says. The gospel says, no, you're a broken person, and God saves you freely. That's what the prodigal figures out that the older son has not yet figured out. And it's interesting that the story ends without our knowing what the older son actually decides to do. In the end, it just says, why don't you come join the party? And the elder son, there's no answer. We don't know how the story ends for him. And I think what Jesus is doing there is asking us the question, how do you want this story to end for you?
- [30:25]
Jenny Yurch
Wow, this is a really interesting book. Really, really interesting. And something that, you know, it's just not, like you said, it should be talked about in the church, but it's not. And it's a missing. A really big missing piece, especially given the current spot our culture is in with all of the Different. I mean, you can be addicted to gambling. I mean, it's so easy. When I Talked to that Dr. Nicholas Carderis, who wrote this book, Glow Kids and Digital Madness and he's an addiction specialist. He has places around a couple places where people go and it used to be for substance abuse, they go and you know, work through that. And now it mainly is for like video games, screen addiction, pornography, video games, social media. Yeah, that's become a bigger thing. But you know, he is an addiction specialist. He knows all of the ins and outs. He's written these books and he said what slipped by him was sports betting with his own children.
- [31:17]
Ian Cron
Oh, with his own. Yeah. I just had a mom the other day say to me, my two 14 year old twins, I've discovered, have developed a compulsive relationship with sports betting. And you know, the problem is, is that, well, first of all, there are plenty of companies out there who, who openly and admittedly are trying to addict you to their product and to behaviors that are addictive and compulsive. We are being manipulated all the time. You know, spending addictions are out of control. And, but you know, and what's the difference between saying, you know, what if I just buy two pairs of shoes, it'll make my pain go away? What's the difference between that and someone saying if I only have three drinks, my pain will go away. By the way, in your brain, physiologically, I'm talking about physically in your brain, precisely the same thing is happening when you're compulsively spending or sports betting that it is for a heroin addict. It is exactly the same. Now what will differ is the amount of dopamine that's getting released at the same time. But it is precisely the same, you know, set of mechanics. And you know, the early church mothers and fathers taught a lot about what's called attachments. And that was their word for the now clinical term that we use in this time of addiction that they just recognized. Everybody has attachments, ways of trying to fix the existential discomfort that they feel inside about life with things other than God, which then eventually these counterfeits, they imprison us because now we're kind of stuck in this loop of kooky behavior trying to get a fix that no longer fixes us. Now it's a bigger problem than the one it was trying to solve because.
- [33:07]
Jenny Yurch
You had written our self written prescriptions. So all of these different things that we're doing for soothing our pain eventually cause us more problems than they solve. We're Trying to solve this big ache. So the way that the book is laid out, I just. I like, really, really liked it. It's funny and it's interesting, and I, like, starred and laughed and I just got so much out of it. And I was exposed to something that I've always been wanting to know more about, but, like, didn't really have a spot. Like, this is a funny spot. Like, when you're. You get swept out to sea.
- [33:38]
Ian Cron
Yeah.
- [33:39]
Jenny Yurch
You're stuck in the rip current. And when you're stuck in the rip current, you're supposed to swim with it, but, you know, you're panicking and the lifeguard yells, don't fight the current. Let it carry you. And you wrote. I remember thinking that this metaphysical sounding advice wasn't particularly helpful. You know, it's just. It's funny the way that you write. You know, I'm reading it and it goes through each step. Like, each step and you've got different ways of saying what it is. So it was like. Well, and then I wrote my own. But like, step one is, you know that you need help. And you know, you have to surrender and you have to admit that there's a power greater than us. You go through each. Each step. You have to inventory your life. You're dealing with resentments and fears. You have to confess. You have to fess up. You have to deal with your character defects. So it's like you're talking about your relationship with God, your relationship with yourself, your relationship with others, and then you're having to make amends. And what I thought was interesting was this whole point of emotional sobriety. So this kind of comes near the end, and I think everybody will relate with this. So, like, for me, I'm like, okay, if I can have a perfect day, you know, where it's like, get up. No issues with kids. It's very smooth. No issues with my spouse. I don't have too much work to do. It's like a smooth day. We have all the groceries we need in the house, then you're fine. But, like, most days are not like that. And you have these, like, these things that, like, tip you over and it becomes really hard to stick with what you want for your life. And you wrote about being a hyperactive person. Like, this is another funny thing you wrote. I was like a guy trapped inside a phone booth with a murder hornet. I flapped and swatted at almost everything. It was exhausting. So can you talk? I've never heard this phrase before. I thought, oh, it's A really good emotional sobriety.
- [35:30]
Ian Cron
Yeah. And that's what the steps will help you achieve. Emotional sobriety is the ability to maintain balance, emotional balance in the face of whatever life throws at you. So it's about serenity. And that's a word we use a lot in recovery, right? Like a serenity, like, yeah. So this is how it is. My life is chaotic and there's a lot going on, but I can be an emotionally balanced person in the face of all this. And the way to do that is to shift your internal posture from self reliance to God reliance. It's like this trust that God is in control. It doesn't mean like you just lay down and hope someone that God's going to fill the refrigerator with groceries. Right. But because you got to go to the grocery store. But it is this kind of way of being in relationship with your life where, you know, you're no longer in charge, you're no longer running around on self will, like just trying to make, trying to bend reality to your desires. Right. It's like, yeah, so you just, you know, you know how there are some people that they seem to have, they just have this ability to move through the chaos of life with a certain kind of balance. And it's, it's really. And with joy. It's like, yep, it's a little kooky out here. But I have this relationship with God that makes doing this just something I can do with serenity. And serenity is just recognizing your limitations. Like, it's like, you know, God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. I can't change the fact that I got all this stuff to do and that life is chaotic and my kids are pulling on me and I'm tired and blah, blah, blah. What can I change? God gave me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. So you just kind of fall back into the life giving arms of God and you're just like, gonna do my best. I'm just gonna do the next right thing, you know. So if you called me up on the phone and you said, I'm out.
- [37:37]
Jenny Yurch
Of my mind, I gotta do a.
- [37:38]
Ian Cron
Podcast and I gotta do again for the gross reason one of my kids has the norovirus and this is going on and my husband is a jerk and blah, blah, blah, you know, I just say, jenny, what's the next right thing to do? All right, go to the grocery store. Okay, great, go do that. And don't think about anything else until you're finished with that. This is the kind of wisdom the basics of the steps will give you, right? It's like, all right, we're just going to do the next right thing. We're going to chunk this down. I'm going to change what I can and then I'm going to move on to the next thing. And I just, you know, just take a breath and do the next right thing. The steps just have so much of this kind of wisdom built into them. They're like a design for living. They're just a program for living and living with balance and with faith and trust. And most people of faith, I know, they're really well intentioned and they're doing their best, but they don't have a plan. Like, there's no plan. You know, if I want to lose 25 pounds and you know, get muscle, I got a plan for that. But if I say to people, can you tell me what your, your spiritual growth plan is? They don't have one. And what the 12 steps offer is a spiritual growth plan. It's like, oh, if I do these things, I am going to have a spiritual awakening of sufficient force that I will stop needing things like food or workaholism or whatever it is. These fixes that I've come up with, I won't need them anymore and I will live a more balanced, emotionally sober life.
- [39:10]
Jenny Yurch
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Jenny Yurch
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- [40:38]
Jenny Yurch
One of the keys is that you have to be consistent. So you write, I can't afford to take a day off from my recovery. You wrote, life presents us with a difficult syllabus. So, you know, there's always all of these things going on. Would you say that this, you know, you have this 30 minute practice that you do in the morning, meditation, which you actually talk about meditation, because it does feel like it's a little bit like woo. But then it's in the Bible, right? It says meditate on it day and night. So it's like a Bible word. You have this 30 minute routine. You've already gone through all this, all the 12 steps. So once you've gone through the 12 steps, do you feel like that 30 minute routine is like your stabilization?
- [41:19]
Ian Cron
Yeah. So the steps are very practical, right? So in step 11, it says, sought through prayer and meditation to improve, you know, my conscious contact with God. So I know that these are called maintenance steps. 10, 11 and 12 are maintenance steps. So in 1 through 3, you've mended and deepened your relationship with God, which we should be doing all the time. Four through seven is mending and deepening my relationship with myself. Eight and nine, mending and deepening my relationship with others. This is good biblical ways of thinking about how to live your Life. And then 10 through 12 are like, oh, how do I maintain this? Right? So the first time through the steps, think of it this way. It's like if your house is a mess, it's chaotic. Everything is just imagine your, your house in the worst mess possible.
- [42:05]
Jenny Yurch
Not hard to do well the first.
- [42:06]
Ian Cron
Time through the steps, right? First time through the steps, it's a little difficult because you've got a big mess, right? And so you and God clean up the house. Now you've got to keep the house clean. So steps 10 through 12 are, are about. Oh, I just noticed that that's out of place now. It's a little bit less work now because I've already done the big cleanup. Now I'm just, you know, keep making sure that I keep the place in order. And so prayer and meditation are parts of ways of keeping the house in order now that it's, you know, put back together. So yeah, I have certain practices and disciplines and I think I would hope that all people of faith have those sorts of things. Because ultimately we think that the spiritual life is about effort. It's not as much about effort as it is about giving God consent to do for us what we can't do for ourselves. You know, it's like we're always trying to reform ourselves when actually we should be focusing on letting God transform us. And that's different. It's way different to surrender. Yes.
- [43:10]
Jenny Yurch
So the meditation you wrote, some Christians break out in hives when they hear the word meditation. You wrote, the key is to. You can have a phrase that you say, but you're trying to just stick with that for five minutes or 10 minutes, however long it is. And you wrote, because addicts are cursed with monkey minds. You're trying to sort of disengage from all the things that are going on. You're trying to empty yourself and fall gently into God. This is interesting because I've gone to church since I was born. Currently not going, but that's a long story. But that's more recent. And I don't know if I've ever heard anybody talk about meditation or like, sitting for five minutes or 10 minutes with a repeated phrase. Why do you think that that's not getting talked about?
- [43:55]
Ian Cron
Well, it is in some circles.
- [43:57]
Jenny Yurch
Okay.
- [43:58]
Ian Cron
My friend John Mark Comer wrote that book Practicing the Way, right? And he talks about it in there, right? Like, it's. I've been doing this for 30 years, and I was introduced it to it through the work of. Particularly through a Catholic priest named John Keating and his work around centering prayer. And all I do when I sit down is I actually use the word shalom. And I just sit down and I focus on that word. And I just. You know, people, Christians talk too much. They just can't stop talking. And oftentimes, if you really, if you were to write down your prayers and read them, you would realize that actually, a lot of the time it's subtle directions to God telling him what you want him to do. Well, guess what that's called Magic. That's magic, right? It's like, I'm going to rub the genie. I'm going to rub the. Rub the genie thing. And, you know, God's going to do what I ask him, right? Or it's like. Or if you read it, you're just sort of talking out loud, your anxieties. It's not real prayer. What if you just said, God, I'm going to be quiet and present myself to you and let you do the rewiring in my brain and soul that needs doing. And I'm just going to sit here and give you permission to do that. And it's up to you as to what that is. I'm not even going to dictate to you what it is. One way of putting it is meditation is a time when you lovingly gaze into the eyes that are lovingly gazing at you.
- [45:19]
Jenny Yurch
You beautiful.
- [45:21]
Ian Cron
Yeah, just all you're doing is lovingly gazing into the eyes that are gazing lovingly at you. A friend of mine likes to say, I don't stop meditation until I hear and feel God say, I love you. And then I get up and I go off on my day.
- [45:35]
Jenny Yurch
Wow. I know you have so many cool friends who are always telling you all these cool things.
- [45:40]
Ian Cron
I do have a lot of cool friends. I will admit that. I've been really fortunate. I've been blessed with a lot of friends and a lot of kindnesses on life's way.
- [45:46]
Jenny Yurch
I love that part of your book. I think, with the meditation and, you know, you sit there for five minutes or I heard someone say one time, it actually always stuck with me. And I don't even know if it's true, Ian, but it stuck with me. Like, I mean, I think I heard it decades ago where they said shalom means nothing missing, nothing broken.
- [46:04]
Ian Cron
Yes. Ultimate well being would be a good way of putting it. Yeah, the experience of ultimate well being, where all the things, the ruptures and the broken parts of our lives feel mended or are mended. So, yeah, it doesn't just mean the absence of conflict. Right.
- [46:19]
Jenny Yurch
It.
- [46:19]
Ian Cron
It's. It's a far deeper concept than that in Hebrew. And by the way, so sometimes when I talk about meditation with Christians, they go, oh, my gosh, you're talking about Eastern religions. You're talking about, like, Buddhism or something. I'm like, man, who told you that? Like, that's just weird, wonky, anxious, Christian thinking. Like what? Like, that is not what it's about. Right. It's not about emptying the self and opening yourself to the demonic. Every time I hear someone say that, I'm like, who told you that? Like, that's kooky thinking. It's about quieting yourself so that you can experience the benefits of union with God. And that is the point of the Christian faith is increasing union with God. The problem is most of us are just running around talking, talking, talking, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. Read, read, read, read, read, read, read. Do, do, do, do, do, do, do. When actually we should probably just shut up and be still for a minute.
- [47:13]
Jenny Yurch
And that's what the meditation is.
- [47:15]
Ian Cron
Yeah.
- [47:15]
Jenny Yurch
You wrote it seems like too simple to do anything, but you are. You will feel more grounded and centered in God throughout the day. Your inner observer will awaken, and your ability to take a pause in heated moments will strengthen. Would you talk about that? You talked about how Viktor Frankl talked about that. That between stimulus and response, there is space. You won't easily take offense, and you will become more loving, patient, and tolerant with yourself and people. Your perceptive appreciation of the world will intensify, and feelings of awe and wonder will return. Through meditation, God is slowly changing you into the person you always wanted with hardly any effort on your part. Those are big things.
- [47:53]
Ian Cron
Yeah. Yeah, they are. You know, what's cookie about church? And this is something that the 12 steps. And I talk so much about this in the fix, right? Like, you go to churches, and I'm always amazed by this. Right? You go to a church and it's just constant noise. You walk in and there's cool music playing over the speakers, or the band is playing something, waiting for the church to start. And then you start the service and there's lights going and there's cameras, and it's just noise. Even when you're doing transitions from the worship set, which is loud, and then they transition to someone coming up to talk about something else. They even put music under that. Like, you can't even get quiet. And it's like, what would happen if a church every now and then just decided to spend five minutes in silence together? And in. In the presence of God, the pastor. I've had pastors say to me, if I did that, people would say I wasn't doing my job because I wasn't just constantly filling the space with noise. And I'm like, you know, that silence. And this is. This is teaching in the Christian tradition for the last 1700 years, in silence, it's. Silence is the natural environment in which you are most likely to bump into God and yourself. Noise is a distraction. And actually, all the noise you hear in church is just part of the distracted noise that you get in the culture. You mean nowadays you can't even go into a store without hearing Taylor playing in the background? Like, it's just constant noise, constant distraction, constant manipulation. Boy, you know, let's get. Because now do you actually think that those stores don't know that if they. That they know that if they play Taylor, you're more likely to buy. Everything is leading you to the register. So we get quiet. And the steps, you know, provide really cool Ways to help people figure this out.
- [49:43]
Jenny Yurch
Yeah. And then you wrote the Big Mama of all prayers. This reminded me of my grandma. She would always say, lord willing. And she's been gone for decades now, but that's what she would say after everything, you know, I'll talk to you tomorrow. Lord willing. Lord willing. And so you wrote the Big Mama of all prayers is thy will be done. That's kind of a hard one to swallow.
- [50:03]
Ian Cron
Yeah. And you know what, by the way, again, the steps are teaching this manner of life. Right. And most, like I said, you know, the steps are like a trellis. You know, like if you have a trellis in your yard, in the garden. And what does a trellis do? Well, a trellis provides a support structure for things to grow on without falling down, like tomatoes and vines and, you know, bougainville or whatever it is that you want growing up on the side of a house. Right. Most people do not have a support structure in the spiritual life on which things can grow. They don't have directions, they have no plan. And so the garden's a little bit of a mess. Right. And what the steps offer is a way of being in the world that help you grow spiritually and strong.
- [50:51]
Jenny Yurch
Yeah. I got so much out of it. And even though I've heard about it, you know, everyone's heard about the 12 steps, I think that most of us have not had a good insight into, like, what exactly they are and how exactly they work. And, you know, how does one go to the next? And how could this impact my daily life? And what trellises should I be introducing to my children who are about to head out into a world? What was the wording that presents a difficult syllabus. And even in childhood, there's a difficult syllabus. I mean, there's a lot going on in childhood that is really difficult. And, you know, we have to deal with these daily crises. That is it. Crises. That's what I'm saying. I don't even know crises at this podcast, and I don't know what the word is. Yeah. The different crises. And they have to have emotional balance in the face of whatever gets thrown your way. So there's these nightly inventory questions. I just found it to be extremely valuable. Uh, the book is called the fix how the 12 steps offer a Surprising Path of transformation for the well adjusted, the down and out and everyone in between. You've got a lot going on. I mean, you've got the road back to you, like I said, has sold over a million copies. You are bestselling author, psychotherapist, Enneagram teacher, Episcopal priest, and the host of the popular podcast Typology. And you have many books. I actually was super interested in the memoir. I haven't read it yet. I love memoirs. There's something I wrote down. Oh. When he was 16 years old, Ian was told about his father's clandestine work with the CIA. This astonishing revelation, coupled with his father's dark struggles with chronic alcoholism and depression, upended the world of a boy struggling to become a man. Decades later, as he faces his own personal demons, Ian realizes the only way to find peace is to voyage back through a painful childhood marked by extremes that he spent years trying to escape. Okay, that sounds really good. I love memoirs. So you've written lots of fabulous books, and you've got the new Enneagram assessment. This has been just such an honor. You talked briefly about your childhood, which included some really hard things. You started drinking at age 8, but then you also wrote you liked wandering alone in the woods. And we always end with this question. The question is, what's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside?
- [53:02]
Ian Cron
Oh, yeah. So that's easy. I can remember a day when I grew up in New England. And in New England, you know, in the fall is exceptionally beautiful, and it was the peak season for leaves. So all the maples, particularly, like, sugar maples, were, like, on fire. Like orange and red and yellow and just on fire. And I was on my bike. I was about 8 years old, and it was very, very early in the morning, so there was no traffic on the streets. And the sky was as perfect a blue as you have ever seen. That dark, dark blue that's just. And these trees were on fire, and there was. The wind was blowing, and the temperature was perfect. Just that little bit of chill in the air that you get in New England in October, you know? And I suddenly had this moment where I had a profound, unexpected, unmanufactured, like, awareness that I was profoundly loved and God was in charge. And it lasted about 10 seconds, as I remember, But I have never forgotten that moment my whole life. It was a moment of shalom. It was this moment where I felt like everything's okay, including me. Everything is connected, everything's okay, and God's in charge. And, you know, I think in many ways, all the fixes that we try in life is that that's what we're really looking for, is this moment of peace. We're looking for peace and that. But the problem is, is that the only way you're ever going to know that peace is through a relationship with God, a union with God. If you look for it in food, if you look for it in workaholism, if you look for it in diet and exercise, if you look for it in, you know, going through screens all day long. I was with a friend the other day and I looked at he happened to have on his phone. Like he. Up on the screen was this thing that shows you where. Where how many hours you've spent and what. Doing what on your phone. Right. The day before, he had spent nine hours on TikTok. Nine hours. Now think about that. Like that's. Is that the life wants for us? I don't think so.
- [55:30]
Jenny Yurch
Wow. And I like that your experience in nature was a spiritual one, because I also think that that's something that's not talked about in the church too much. I think that the imbalance between screen time and time outdoors and in creation is a spiritual issue as much as as it is anything else.
- [55:47]
Ian Cron
Yeah.
- [55:48]
Jenny Yurch
Physical and emotional and mental and all of those things. I think it's a spiritual one because we encounter God out there. This is what he made.
- [55:56]
Ian Cron
I don't know what you think about the devil. There's a lot of things about thoughts about that. Right. Personal forces of evil. But there is a force in the universe that. That is not wanted. Looking out for your best interests. And it's right now it's clear that its principal tool is noise and distraction. It wants to make sure that you don't stop long enough to think about things that actually matter, like God, like your soul, like your life. It wants to keep you distracted and entertained to death. It wants to entertain you to death. And again, the 12 steps are about waking up. That's what they're designed to do. Step 12 says having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps. The point of the steps is not to help you. I mean, people don't realize this. They're not designed to help you stop doing something. They're designed to help you turn your attention toward the source of what it is you're looking for in all those outside things so good so that you no longer have to look to them anymore. It's about connecting to God and then maintaining that connection with God. That's what they teach you how to do.
- [57:10]
Jenny Yurch
It's so good. I loved it so, so much. Ian. There are. There's a book out called Amusing Ourselves to Death, and it was written in the 80s by Neil Postman. So that's when there wasn't any of these other screens. He was just talking about like television and radio. And think about, can you imagine if he was to write a book to today, how different it would be back in the 80s, amusing ourselves to death. Ian, what an honor. I'd already known about you. This is so cool. This a best selling author. You've got your podcast. I'll make sure I put all the links in the show notes. Thank you for being here.
- [57:39]
Ian Cron
My pleasure, Jenny. Thanks for having me.