← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 439: Creativity is Not a Talent—It’s a Way of Being | Stephen Roach, The Breath and the Clay
00:55:46
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- [00:01]
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- [00:27]
Ginny Urch
Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Ginny Urch. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside. And we have a fantastic, fantastic guest today, Stephen Roach, who is the host of the Makers and Mystics podcast and founder of the Breath and the Clay. Working on reconciling art and family, working with artists and creatives all over the country, all over the world. You travel as a keynote speaker, event curator, creative coach. You do these incredible events and you've written a bunch of books and you're a musician. You got a lot going on over there.
- [00:59]
Stephen Roach
It's a busy time.
- [01:01]
Ginny Urch
Yes, yes. I love that. You know, it's interesting. I read a couple of your books and you have a lot of them, but I have one called Naming the An Invitation to Creativity. They're signed, which is super cool. And five Creativity Killers and How to Avoid Them. And one of the things I noticed, Steven, and I love this, actually, I have it bolded and in red on the top of my notes. I wrote, he seems to be a huge reader.
- [01:26]
Stephen Roach
And then I've got my backdrop right here.
- [01:29]
Ginny Urch
I mean, there are so many books. I thought these books that you have, like Naming the Animals, they're kind of like pocket sized books. There's a lot in them, you get a lot out of them, but they're fairly small. And I'm like, the amount of endnotes was so long in comparison to the size of the book. And I was like, wow. I just was pretty floored as to how many books you had read. And then look behind you all, all, all of those books. Give us a little background. How did you end up in the creative space? Obviously you're doing so many creative things. I know you say not to say this, but I would have put myself in the camp of I'm not very creative. Then you say, creativity is not a talent and all people are to some degree creative. What I joke around about is that I have three books that are all called 1000 Hours Outside. So anyway. But you're on the other end of that spectrum, very creative, doing all these of things. Did it start in childhood?
- [02:22]
Stephen Roach
Yeah, you know, I jokingly tell people I was condemned to be a musician from the start. And that's because I come from a very musical background. My father was a third generation fiddle player from the Appalachian mountains. My mother, she was one of 15 children that were sharecropper children, lived in like a two room house, you know, work in the fields. But all of them were bluegrass musicians and singers and flat foot dancers. And so that's the heritage that I come to, is that bluegrass music. But for me, I started playing world music and percussion instruments, drums, and just got interested in a lot of different musical expressions early on. And so that was my entrance into the creative world in high school, things like that. I did some acting, which is some funny stories in and of itself. So got into theater as well as poetry. And it's just always been a part of how I show up in the world.
- [03:22]
Ginny Urch
Okay. So there's one thing about being a creative person. You've got this background in it, you love it, it brings you to life. You're doing all of these things with it, but you take it to the next level. And you've read all these books about creativity and you wrote books about creativity. At what point did it sort of tip over into this space where not only are you going to be creative, but you're going to inspire others to do the same?
- [03:46]
Stephen Roach
Yeah, I think that started when we were on tour for. For a number of years I toured with a band, Songs of Water, that I started, and we would just tour around and. And perform in lots of different venues. And I had a lot of people coming up and asking me how could they create their own unique sound in their lives or how could they unlock more creativity in their world, you know? And so I started doing a bit of coaching with other artists and emerging un know songwriters and poets and people that wanted to do that. And then all the way back in 2014, we were asked to host a creative arts event here in North Carolina. And we just threw it together and had about a hundred people came out. And so I was like, wow, there's actually something here. And throughout the year, people would email me, are you going to do another one? Are you going to do another one? And so we did one more and it doubled in size. And so, you know, fast forward 10 years later, it became something that we're turning into a nonprofit, a vocation. And just a. I think our largest one, we had a thousand people that attended online during lockdown. And then we had about 650 people that came in person. So it's. It kind of grew into this big thing.
- [05:01]
Ginny Urch
Oh, okay. Before we go any further, then, let's talk about the event, because it's coming up and I looked online, just some of the information. So this is an event that's exploring the intersections of art, faith, and culture. It's in North Carolina in March, and Justin McRoberts is a keynote. And I love Justin. I love his storytelling. I love the books that he's written. They're some of my favorite books I've ever read. So anyway, I was looking through the list. Talk to us about the event and what it's going to be like.
- [05:31]
Stephen Roach
Oh, man, I'm so excited. I can't wait for it to get here. But yes, Justin, he's a good friend of ours and one of our keynotes. He's going to be there as well as Kendra Adachi, the lazy genius.
- [05:42]
Ginny Urch
Well, yeah, I've had her on, too. I've had her on. Yes.
- [05:45]
Stephen Roach
You know, I was talking to her and she, you know, she has that book, the Plan, which is all about time management. And I said, kendra, can you tailor the message of the plan to a group of wild artists? And she was like, oh, my gosh, I would love nothing more than to do this. And so she's coming. But the whole event this year is kind of focused on how do we reconcile all the various parts of our lives, all the fragments of our stories? How do we kind of distill these into one expression of wholeness? Or how can art help us heal into wholeness? The. All the different parts, you know, the art side of ourselves, the family side of ourselves, the. The work side of ourselves, the play side of ourselves. How do we bring all these parts together into one creative expression? And so that's what we're going to be focusing on this year.
- [06:36]
Ginny Urch
Wow. It's called Breath and Clay Gathering.
- [06:39]
Stephen Roach
Yes.
- [06:40]
Ginny Urch
This is a 2025 breath and clay Gathering. And people can find out more@the breathintheclay.com you can even get a discount Dream 25 for your tickets. I mean, there were so many people involved, musicians, I mean, artists. It was a lot. It wasn't just Kendra and Justin. I mean, there was like, you know, it's kind of scrolled. So I thought, what an incredible thing. And what a great story, Steven, that, you know, you put something out, you try it, someone asks you to do something, it didn't come from you pursuing it. It was people that were asking. And then you see that this is needed and it's growing and it's growing. So in this world, with the amount of time that people are on screens and especially kids, you know, they're saying, like, kids are on screens for seven hours. You're like, that doesn't even really compute. You know, if they're supposed to sleep for eight and they're at school for seven or eight, then like, that's it. That's all of the time for the most part. And so it does feel like creativity is being pushed to the side. Do you feel that as well?
- [07:37]
Stephen Roach
You know, I think that even back to what you said earlier, that you never really considered yourself a creative in that sense. I think that that's something that we have really championed over the years, is kind of pushing back against that a bit. And I'm grateful for writers like Rick Rubin. You know, he wrote the book a few years ago that's just been, you know, so phenomenal. But he has echoed a lot of the same things that we've been saying, which is that creativity is not a talent. It's really a way of being. It's how we show up in the world. You know, whether you're a stay at home mom or a chef or a gardener or a visual artist or a musician. Creativity is how we approach life. It's how we show up to the world. Not so much a specific talent or a technique that we've learned. And so that's why I tell people, you know, if you say you're not creative, I think it's a little bit of bad theology or bad psychology, you know, bad anthropology. There you go. But there's a different way of thinking about it. And that's one of the things that we hope to do through our podcast as well as through our events, is helping people liberate that creative spark inside of them and then help send them on a journey of discovering how that wants to come out through their own practices.
- [08:51]
Ginny Urch
You wrote, and it challenged me, you wrote, to say I am not creative denies the image of God and our own humanity. Like you're talking about how the Bible starts off with, in the beginning, God created. The first couple words are that. And I was like, oh. But then really, truly, actually I do feel like I am kind of creative. Like when I stopped to think about it, I was like, well, there we have this global movement and you know, there are things that I do create. And I think sometimes it's like our creativity doesn't look like other people's. And that's why that's. And so I, you know, I have felt like that since I was a child. Like, I'm not making these cool art pieces or, you know, I can't sort of come up with a story out of nothing. So that's sort of where it stemmed from. But tell, tell us, what are the different places? I mean, you kind of alluded to it before. You're a mom, you know, you're building your home. But what are the misconceptions about what creativity is?
- [09:44]
Stephen Roach
Yes. No, that's a great question. And I think that it starts with the mindset again. It just goes back to the mindset. For instance, I think that this notion of inspiration, a lot of people feel that inspiration is something that just hits you out of nowhere, like a lightning bolt. It was unexpected. You didn't know that it was coming. But inspiration is a discipline. Inspiration is a way of approaching life, I would say, with the eyes of a child. It's childlikeness. And I think that that really is what lends itself to the creative mindset, is approaching the everyday less with fear and more with curiosity. We go through so many things every day in our lives that are on the peripheral. We miss them if we don't cultivate a certain attentiveness. I know in my own life, Monday morning is Monday morning, right? You know, we go through a lot of the same mundane, but if we can slow our pace down and really begin to cultivate a sense of where's the wonder hiding in this experience that maybe I've overlooked? Where is the newness and the novelty in this everyday experience that I'm having? I think that is a real key to unlocking creativity, is approaching life with the mindset of childlikeness.
- [11:07]
Ginny Urch
It's good. It's good. And I just think that that's kind of not what we're doing. And one of the things that you talked about is just, you know, information has crowded out wonder. We've traded, and the modern society is devoid of mystery and appreciation of the sacred. And so people can definitely, I'm sure, learn a lot more about that on your Podcast Makers and Mystics podcast. One of the things that stuck out to me the most, Stephen, and so I've got these two books here that I read. This one is in Naming the Animals, An Invitation to Creativity was about how dead things are the things that produce good soil. And I was like, oh, oh, that's really good. You wrote, hard soil doesn't easily produce. Neither do hardened hearts. Creativity thrives in humble relationships with God, the earth, and one another. And you were talking about how, you know, that all of these things die and it creates all these nutrients for good soil. And so here's my story. In the third grade, we had to be creative, and we had to come up with, like, our ideal house. If you could make any sort of house, what would it be like? And my idea was that I would live, like, in a balloon, and it would float around. Whatever. That feels pretty creative.
- [12:17]
Stephen Roach
I love that.
- [12:18]
Ginny Urch
But then you had to make it. And in the third grade, I was left to my own devices, and I had to make it on my own with these balloons or it wasn't very good. Right. I was 8. But some of my friends, I swear, their parents made their thing. You know, it was like decoupage. I mean, it was like a whole thing, this volcano. I mean, they brought in these huge things. And I've got my balloons, and I think I'd drawn on them. Anyway, I got a C, and I don't think I'd ever gotten a C. Look, I still remember it. I'm, like, bitter. It's been decades, but I was like, I thought, you can clearly see that their mom made that. Like, you know, the teacher. Can't you see that? But I think those failures, they sort of. They tend to turn you off.
- [13:00]
Stephen Roach
That's right.
- [13:01]
Ginny Urch
Well, I'm not really that creative. But your approach is. No, your failures can create this good soil. Tell us more about that.
- [13:09]
Stephen Roach
It's exactly right. I think it's so beautiful that you brought up this memory from childhood, because, honestly, that's where a lot of people get shut down. And that's why people grow into adults that say things like, I'm not creative, because there's a memory attached back there. It's probably unconscious for a lot of people, but there was a moment where we showed up, we did something, and it. It fell flat. And so we learned. Oop. Bad experience. That didn't feel good. I'm not doing that again. Let me go somewhere else, you know, and so I think it was Picasso that said something to the effect of, like, we're all artists as children, you know, but when we grow up, those of us that maintained it, those are the ones that become artists. And that's a. That's my own interpretation of what he said. But there's something to that. And I think that, you know, when those experiences happen and they shut us down, it really takes a bit of help sometimes to get us back to that creative mindset. And that's that's kind of why I wrote that book, five five Creativity Killers. Because I started recognizing things like comparison, things like fear of failure, fear of rejection, how all those things really shut us down and. And harden that soil that you're talking about. But what I've discovered in my own life, and I think this is true for so many of us, we all have dreams that died. We all had things that we gave ourselves to, things that we were passionate about, hopes. Whether it's a relationship, whether it was a pursuit, whatever it may be, we have these things that fell flat. And we can often feel like, well, that year of my life was wasted, or those years of my life were wasted, or that season was wasted. This thing that I gave everything to. But I discovered such a secret in the soil. You know, even our event is called the breath and the clay. So I did a lot of research on breath, inspiration and clay. The soil, the material, the physical. You can tell I get philosophical if you give me a half a second. But you know this. The way that soil is composed is that you have rotting fruit, banana peels, dog poop, all of this stuff that's useless, it's gone. It's had its moment. But when it all comes together and then you put a little seed of life, just a little seed in the middle of all that, and then you water it and you nurture it, something grows from that. It's miraculous. It's truly overwhelming. And so I use that as a metaphor for helping people see that whatever we've gone through, whatever failures we've experienced, whatever disappointments we've gone through, those things can become the nutrients for the soil of our future if we don't shut down to it.
- [15:57]
Ginny Urch
I think that's such a good reframe because I've not done that. I've just sort of turned it off.
- [16:04]
Stephen Roach
Right. We all do.
- [16:06]
Ginny Urch
In my balloon house, there was drinking fountains, but it wasn't water, it was chocolate milk. I was like, this was such a good idea.
- [16:15]
Stephen Roach
I think it's an awesome idea.
- [16:17]
Ginny Urch
But I mean, I shut it off. I was like, well, that's not really my thing. And I've had a lot of. I mean, I had a lot of mishaps and missteps. And I love this. We can find hope for those fallen, unfulfilled dreams, painful situations, disappointments and broken relationships in our lives. If we look at it as something that's building the soil for whatever the next seed is.
- [16:40]
Stephen Roach
Yes.
- [16:41]
Ginny Urch
I thought, wow, I'm definitely going to take that with me. Steven I love that.
- [16:46]
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- [20:47]
Ginny Urch
Okay, let's talk about some of these creativity killers. You got five of them. That's what a great book. A quick read. Five Creativity Killers and How to Avoid Them. I think for parents this is important because if we're trying to cultivate creative adults for our kids that when they grow up we've got to make sure we don't kill it and help them not to kill it. So you talk about I'd love to just we won't have time to talk about all of them. But you're talking about comparison, you're talking about fear, different things that can kill our creativity. But you had an interesting story where you have this opportunity to record at this really cool place and you said you get afraid, overcome with dread. I totally relate with this. We are going on tour literally next week and it was my idea and I'm like terrified people aren't going to come. It's Going to be dumb. And I am in that moment. I know from experience that after you're always glad you did it. Yes, but I'm in the dread phase, and you have the dread phase. I was overcome with dread. I told myself, I can't do this. There is no way I'm going to play in front of. This is like a famous person. This is a terrible choice. But you had to go on. So talk to us about how we overcome the fear. There's so much there.
- [22:05]
Stephen Roach
Yes, I'll share the story in brief. And you know, I mentioned at the beginning of the podcast that I come from a very big bluegrass background in my family. And so my band at the time, we were going to Nashville to record an album and I had written a song on the mandolin. And, you know, I'm not a bluegrass picker in that sense, but I had written this one song on the mandolin. It was kind of a nod to my family heritage. In fact, the song is called the Family Family Tree. You can find it out there. But we went to the Skaggs family studio to record this. And so, as you know, you know, Ricky Skaggs is like one of the world famous mandolin players, you know, that's. He's a legend. You know, we're in his studio, we're getting ready to record this, and Ricky walks up to me and hands me his mandolin to record this track in his studio. And I'm like, are you kidding me? And this is the first song that they wanted to start with the whole record. This is what we're starting with this one. And I had a. I had a moment where I just had to do it scared. I knew that I was going to mess up. My hands were shaking, and I just knew that I had to do it scared. And I think that that principle is something maybe you can even apply as you get ready to go on tour. The fear may not go away, but we don't have to let it drive the car, you know, if it's going to ride with us, then get in the back. But I'm driving, you know, and it takes practice to learn how to posture ourselves in that way. And it's not like we ever arrive. That's an ongoing discipline, an ongoing practice that we can cultivate in our lives, is that I'm going to do it scared. Here's one other little example that I found very helpful for me. I mentioned our Breath and Clay event coming up in March. Well, I have this practice that every January of the year. I set apart the first three weeks and for me, I just kind of pray. I journal. I look at the previous year, and I look at where I want to go. And I use my last year's January journal as a road map so I can kind of see, okay, this is where I was last January, where I'm at now. Well, last January. As I got into this, I realized as I'm journaling this year, I was like, I'm really nervous. What if nobody shows up to our event? Like you were saying, what if nobody shows up?
- [24:24]
Ginny Urch
I'm really nervous. What if nobody comes to my birthday party? I mean, this is how I feel about everything.
- [24:29]
Stephen Roach
That's right. You know, And I was journaling about this, and I was like, well, I wonder what was happening in my life last January. So I pulled out last January's journal. Guess what? I was journaling about last January. I am afraid nobody's going to show up to this event, you know, and so at that moment, I was like, oh, I get it. And it kind of gave me the strength to press through that and to keep going. And I think that we. We have to cultivate those type of practices in our lives to help us to move past the fear or to do it. Scared. Anyway, you know, it is interesting when.
- [25:05]
Ginny Urch
People actually are really honest about it, because I think it helps you feel like, oh, well, this is more normal. I had talked to this lady. I, you know, I speak at some events here and there, and I talked to this woman who had been doing it for decades, and we were at this event together. She was going to speak. It was like an outside thing, and it wasn't even that big of a deal, like this particular one. It wasn't like a huge, huge thing. And I just kind of, I don't know, in passing said, are you nervous? She was like, I'm nervous every time. You know, she's been doing it for decades. And I thought, oh, I've thought about that so many times. Because I was like, well, I guess that's. That's normal.
- [25:40]
Stephen Roach
Yeah.
- [25:40]
Ginny Urch
And no one really talks about it.
- [25:42]
Stephen Roach
I don't think it ever goes away. No matter how many times you've done it or how famous you get or how, you know, experienced you are with something. I think that people learn how to work in that. And of course, we grow and we. I'm not saying we can't get past things, but I think that even people that have reached huge measures of success and have done things for years, they still get the jitters. It still hits everybody or the other one that I'd love to mention on is comparison. You know, it doesn't matter. It seems that, you know, you could be on top of the world and still feel down about what you've accomplished. And I think that's why that comparison is such a creativity killer.
- [26:22]
Ginny Urch
You had written this, God does not function by a competitive ontology.
- [26:27]
Stephen Roach
That's right.
- [26:27]
Ginny Urch
I've never heard that phrase.
- [26:31]
Stephen Roach
Yeah, I mean, it's right. I think that for us, I think the only person that we can rightfully compare ourselves to is who we were yesterday. And maybe that's a bit of a cliche. I didn't come up with that thought, but I think that it's true. It's like I can compare myself to where I was yesterday, but I cannot compare myself to where somebody else is today. You know, I can look at who I've been and where I've come from, and I can make adjustments and I can decide to be a better person today, but I can't look at the success of someone else and measure myself by that because they have a completely different story and their journey is not mine. And so I think that comparison really shuts down creativity more than anything, especially in children. And that's something that, you know, I've even been trying to instill. I have a son and a daughter. My daughter's 16, my son's 13. And I've been trying to. My wife and I both, we've really been instilling in them the beauty of their uniqueness from a spiritual perspective. That Psalm 139. You've been fearfully and wonderfully made. I've interpreted that you have. You have been reverently and wonderfully made. You know, you've. You've been uniquely designed. There's, in the words of Dr. Seuss, there's no one alive that's you were. Than you. You know, and so there's. There's something about embracing the beauty of who we are in the incomplete, unresolved, messy middle of it all that really can help us learn that even our failures can serve the future. Our failures can serve this. And I. And I also made the point in that book making a distinction between perfectionism and excellence. And I think perfectionism is rooted in fear. It can be rooted in a bit of pride. You know, I've got to be the best I've. You know, whereas excellence is rooted in humility and excellence is rooted in a love for the craft or a love for what it is that we're doing. And I think all those things tie in together. You Know, but comparison is, I hate comparison.
- [28:38]
Ginny Urch
That you talked about how you're integrating this with your kids, because especially with siblings, I think that can be really tricky. Yes, my mom has talked about that because she's done some different Bible studies on it. And she's like the breakdown of all these families, like in the history of the Bible, a lot of it is comparison or jealousy or parents who are not overtly celebrating the uniqueness of each child. And I just talked to this woman named Corey Robertson. She is in this Duck Dynasty reality TV show and she's got all these kids. And one of them went on to be on Dancing with the Stars and became a fairly big celebrity. Well, she's got these other kids too. And what she talks about is that she really hones in on, first of all, that everybody has their own unique talents and also acknowledging that some talents are celebrated by the world more.
- [29:30]
Stephen Roach
Yeah, yeah, that's right. I think that's where the spiritual life really offers value to us, you know, regardless of where you're coming from with that. I think that what I mean in that is that it roots us, that our self worth is rooted in something deeper than what we accomplish in the world. And that's, that's not to diminish the things that we accomplish. They should be celebrated. But I, I think that there's the root of who we are and, and who we are celebrated as, as people and especially as our children. And there has to be a root celebration that goes deeper than what we do in the world and the things that we accomplish, if that makes sense.
- [30:09]
Ginny Urch
Yeah, I had this big misnomer literally up until the last year where. And like you said, a lot of people, people are listening from different faith backgrounds. But also I think a lot of these things are just overarching. There's this part in the Bible that talks about your fruit, and I have always viewed that as like accolades or accomplishments or look how big that church is. Or they must be doing something right. Look at their fruit. And then, you know, a lot of these churches fall or there's these massive things that happen. And then I read this book and it was like, no, fruit is not that. Rue is your character.
- [30:44]
Stephen Roach
That's right.
- [30:45]
Ginny Urch
And I was like, oh, I've been thinking the wrong thing for a very long time. Yes, but that is something that the world would not celebrate. Right. They're going to celebrate accomplishments and accolades. They're not going to be like, that person has more self control today than they had yesterday. That person is more joyful today. Than they were yesterday. And what an important thing to teach our kids, man.
- [31:08]
Stephen Roach
Well, I mean, moment of vulnerability here. I think that has been one of the major challenges of my own life because as one who has worked in the arts, as someone who has worked in the performing arts, you know, whether it was through performing as a musician or theater in my high school years, I always measured my own self worth by accolades, by the things that I did in public, by the response that I got from an audience. And I learned, you know, you can accomplish all these external things and you can be dying inside. And I went through a season of that. You know, I went through a really tough time when Covid hit and the whole world shut down. And I think so many artists did. You know, what do you do when you're a performer and your entire livelihood is based off of public appearances and things like this, and then suddenly you're at home with no schedule and it's a really hard time. But I think you're so right. The past, I'd say four years of my life have been really devoted to developing character in my own life and developing character in me, and then also hopefully teaching my children the same thing that who they are and who they become. And like you said, those fruits, the kindness, the gentleness, the self control, the patience, those are the things that really matter. Because I think at the end of the day, the greatest work of art we can create is who we become in this life. And that's, you know, that's something that, that I hope to instill in my kids and something that I hope to encourage other artists and all creatives with, is that who we become really is the greatest work of art will offer.
- [32:45]
Ginny Urch
It's good. It's good. It's definitely a different way to look at things. Can you elaborate on this sentence? I've come to believe more in what I have to offer than what I have to lose.
- [32:58]
Stephen Roach
Oh, I'm so glad you pointed that one out. Yes. I think that that comes from the root of having our self worth rooted in something deeper than our external works. And you know, I've often said I perform not to gain acceptance, but I perform because I'm accepted. I create the things that I create not to gain a sense of self worth, but I create because of who I've been created to be. And I think that it all just, you know, as far as more to offer than to gain, it's just that I'm going to do what I do because it is an overflow of who I've been created to be. It's not based out of lack. And I think in the same way that. And it's. This doesn't just have to be for performers, but for anybody, because we're all performers in a sense. We show up for work, to perform a particular task, you know, whatever it is. But I'm learning, and I believe I've come a long way with this, that it's not based out of lack. I'm not doing this to gain something that I think that I lack, but I'm doing this as something to offer. One thing that I've said along those lines that I've encouraged, people that I've coached and people that I've worked with is I've asked the question, who is your art meant to love? Who's your art meant to love? What is this podcast? My podcast. What. Who are these things meant to love? And so it becomes generative rather than based in my own need. You know, it's. It's more on what I have to give. This is what all of my failures have taught me. And therefore, I can offer this to you. This is a gift to you rather than what can I gain from you by doing this? You know what I mean? So it's more. What I mean is cultivating a mindset of generosity, cultivating a mindset that's generative, that's giving, rather than. I'm doing this to fill a lack in my own heart.
- [34:58]
Ginny Urch
So many different ways to look at things. It's so interesting. I read this book by N.D. wilson called Death by Living. It's one of my favorites. And I talked to him. He's. The whole thing is about. Like you said, we're all performers. We're all part of a story. We're all characters in this grand story. And he talks about storytelling. And here I am, I'm, like, thinking I'm not very creative. So I'm like, well, what if someone doesn't. Doesn't want to tell a story? And he's like, well, you are. You are. You know, there's no way of getting out of it. You are. You're. You're telling a story with your life. And to think about it in that way. I thought this fear thing was really interesting when it took a turn into the fear of the unknown. It evokes a sense of dread and creates anxiety. Yes. So I grew up. I was classically trained on the piano, so I read the music. That's what you do. And, you know, if you have to improvise or Whatever. You join a band and you're trying to come up with something. I was always kind of like, just give me the piece of paper that tells me the note. And I have thought many times, stephen, haven't all the songs already been written? How can someone take a 1, 4, 5 structure and come up with something new? How can someone take. You know, most things are in 4, 4, or they're in 6, 8, or there's these time. Except for, like, Yanni, he'll do, you know, things that is like 10, 8 or 11, 12 or whatever, all these different time signatures. But for the most part, it's like there is sort of this structure and there's only 88 keys on the piano, and there's only so many combinations you can do on the guitar. And I'm the type of person that's like, it's mostly been written.
- [36:26]
Stephen Roach
Yes.
- [36:27]
Ginny Urch
But other people don't view it that way because they're constantly coming out with new songs.
- [36:31]
Stephen Roach
That's right. You know, you said something a few minutes ago that ties into this, that I want to bring back into the conversation. When you're talking about your own story and do I have something to say? And, you know, hasn't it all been said before? Hasn't it all been done? Well, that goes back to the uniqueness of the dignity of your own individual person. It's like, yes, it's been said before, but it's never been said by you. Yes, it's been done before, but it's never been done by you. And your particular story, your particular experiences, brings a vantage point that nobody else has. And so you're contributing to a larger conversation. And so just by virtue of showing up, you're contributing something immensely unique. And I think that, you know, some people would say that we're. We're kind of in this generation of expressive individualism. It's my truth, it's my this, it's my that. I think that's a bit of a misnomer because that mindset, again, tends to be based on a lack. Or it tends to be based on, I have to fight to show my worth. Whereas I think that there's a. There's a rest that allows us to show up and say, you know, this is my contribution, this is what I have to give. My story has taught me this. And then there's. There's no fight. There's this. I'm contributing this. And I think that it goes into the fear of the unknown, like what you're talking about, because the unknown can be Terrifying. I mean, we're creatures of habit. I like to show up at the coffee shop where they know my name and they know what drink I'm going to order. And, you know, there's a sense of normal that. That gives me comfort. It gives me security. That's the word. You know, it's like normalcy can give us security, but it can also lead to complacency and passivity, which I think, think. I think passivity is the real creativity killer, if you want to get down to brass tacks on that. You know, passivity is the opposite of creativity, not destruction. But that's a different podcast. And so I think that the fear of the unknown, it ties into fear of failure. What if we can ask that question, what if from two different perspectives? What if everything goes wrong? Wrong? What if I fail? What if this doesn't turn out right? Or what if I discover something I've never seen before? What if this leads to the very thing that I've longed for my whole life? What if this. You know what I'm saying? It's like we can. We can approach the unknown with fear and trepidation, or we can approach the unknown with curiosity. And I think the creative mindset chooses curiosity over fear, you know, and at the end of the day, if you. If you face it and everything goes wrong, that's when I say, all right, that's going into the soil. What's that going to produce in the future? Right? It really is. Yeah. And that's why I say it's a discipline. So much of the creative life is a discipline and not a talent, you know?
- [39:29]
Ginny Urch
Well, we live in a culture of passivity, and I talk about this a lot, but I read this book by Neil Postman that he wrote in the 80s called Amusing Ourselves to Death, and he was referring to television. The 80s, television, which wasn't on all the time. I mean, we would watch, like, Full House on Monday night, you know, and it was 22 minutes, and that was it. I mean. I mean, they only did however many shows in a season, and then it was reruns. So the passivity, I mean, because you're living in someone else's creative world. So that's really interesting that passivity is the opposite of creativity. And we're spending so much of our time in, I think, passive pursuits. I'm gonna read this. The blank canvas, the silent piano, and a cabinet full of spices all hold undiscovered possibility. Just love. Because I actually wouldn't believe that. I would be like, no, it holds Whatever anybody else has already done. Yes, but it's good. It's good to look at it in a different way. Some people view that as exhilarating because it promises discovery. And other people, it evokes a sense of dread and creates anxiety. And also there was this. Wrapped up in the fear, there was also this thought of. I've thought about this before. If you are successful, if you go into Ricky Skaggs and you nail it on the mandolin, you might think, well, that was just the pinnacle of my life. And what if there's nothing ever better? Or what if I can never do as good as that in the future? That's a fear too.
- [40:59]
Stephen Roach
Oh, I think that that one hits so many successful people, you know, friends of mine that I know that have had best selling books, you know, it's like suddenly you've got a whole new set of expectations and pressures that. You know what I mean? That press against you. It's like, well, do it again. Can you do it again? Can you do it again? And if we live in that mindset of trying to repeat the last greatest thing that we did, that's a creativity killer. Every year that we do our breath and clay events, they're totally different. Last year we had such an amazing party. You know, we had an electronic duo from la. Their name is Elephant Heart. They came and just crush it. The whole room was bouncing off the walls. This year when we start planning, I'm like, how can I do that again? What are we going to do this time? And I'm like, we're going to clear the pallet. That was its own success, but I'm not trying to repeat that. Now I'm having to look forward and say, well, what is the expression for this year? The same with kids. You're talking about kids. They're all unique. We can't expect one kid to be the same as the other. My daughter, she's really into songwriting right now, and that's something that I can help her with. My son is obsessed with basketball. You want to know my basketball skills? You know, I could. Yeah, they don't exist. And so finding ways to encourage him in his pursuits, even though they're vastly different than my own, that's where leaving room for our own individual stories to come, all of this stuff ties in together. You know, I read this book, it's.
- [42:27]
Ginny Urch
Coming out or just came out by Ethan Cross. He does all this work on emotions. He is the director of this emotions laboratory at the University of Michigan, actually, not far from where we live. But he Was talking about how, like, we all just are kind of lazy. Like, our bent is to be lazy. It does take an extra amount of oomph, I think.
- [42:45]
Stephen Roach
Yeah.
- [42:46]
Ginny Urch
To say.
- [42:47]
Stephen Roach
Yeah.
- [42:47]
Ginny Urch
To not copy what you've already done.
- [42:49]
Stephen Roach
And that's right.
- [42:50]
Ginny Urch
And to clear the palette. Because then you're starting with nothing.
- [42:53]
Stephen Roach
Yes.
- [42:54]
Ginny Urch
You're not starting with nothing. You're starting with a good soil.
- [42:56]
Stephen Roach
Yes.
- [42:57]
Ginny Urch
But you're back to square one in some sense.
- [43:00]
Stephen Roach
You very much are. And I think all these things we're talking about tying together. Let me bring it. You know, the passivity we talked about a few minutes ago, there's a consumerism that I think you were pointing at with the sitcoms and just watching. There's a. There's a mindset of consumerism that can get on us. And I think that's a creativity killer as well. Is like constantly consuming without then having our own output. And I think that, you know, whether it's that passivity, the consumerism bit, or, again, the comparison, it's a. It's a different mindset to say, well, who is. Who is my creativity meant to love? What is this next project? What is it meant to serve? And how can I show up now, present tense, for what I have to give rather than what I have to receive? It's all a bit countercultural.
- [43:45]
Ginny Urch
You know, let's hit one more topic, as I think it really pertains to this audience quite a bit. You talk, in naming the animals, about contemplation, and you can't contemplate anything if you don't have the time. And what we're trying to do is we're trying to expand our sense of time. We're trying to get outside. We're trying to be away from phones to a degree. And we went on a trip to Moab, Utah, last summer, where we were out on a river rafting for five days in a row. And you camp on the side with Moab Adventure Center. It was pretty remarkable. It had been decades since I was without access to information, immediate information. And when you're in those situations and questions come up in your mind, which they always do, you just have to wonder about it. I don't know. I wonder. That's it. I wonder. And there's no way to know. There's no way to look it up. And you talk about how, first of all, that contemplation is just not really a part of what we have going on today, but that much of creativity begins there and that many people waste countless hours in their creative Endeavors because they skip contemplation. So here's my question, Steven. In a world that is inundated information, things that you could watch, things that you have to do, how do you, as a practice, this build in time for contemplation?
- [45:05]
Stephen Roach
Yes. This is such a key point. This is such a key topic. And I think, you know, something comes to mind. Tom Waits is a musician. I love Tom Waits. He's just an incredible poet, creative thinker. But there's a story about him where he talks about, you know, a question was asked and someone was like, oh, well, let me just. Just let me just Google it. And he's like, no, don't Google it. I don't want the answer. I want to sit with it. I want to sit with this. I want to gestate on this. And I think that that is a countercultural practice.
- [45:41]
Ginny Urch
That.
- [45:41]
Stephen Roach
And it's a discipline that I think we would all be served well if we would cultivate that in our lives. And it does take discipline to say, like, for instance, for many of us, reaching for our phone first thing in the morning has become reflexive. Now, most of us, I think, just reach for our phone. We look at the time, or we want to see what emails came in, or if somebody texted us, or we start scrolling. I've made it a practice in my life to not allow myself to do that is to spend the first a couple of minutes in my life in a super prayerful place, contemplative place, a place where between the impulse and the action, we set a table of communion. And so I think that one practical way that that works itself out in my life is I do mountain biking. We've got some beautiful mountain biking trails here in Greensboro, where I live. And when the weather is good, I'll get on the mountain bike two, three times a week, you know, and I'll ride, you know, 10, 11 miles through the woods. There's no phone. I'll keep a notepad or something with me in my back pocket. And if I get an idea, I'll sit down and I'll write it out. But it's. It's just such an interesting thing how the greater expansiveness that technology brings to us and the greater capabilities that it brings to us, it also comes at the cost of dependency. And, you know, there's a dependency that we grow with our technology and with these things that take our attention and with so much the whole world is right here now. It's right at our fingertips. But with all of that, it requires a greater discipline for us to live a meaningful life, a spiritual life, a contemplative life. Here's a way to conclude this thought is that, you know, all creativity begins in contemplation. And for me, what that means is that I'm going to take time, I'm going to slow my pace, I'm going to think about my breathing. I'm going to consider. There's a fun Bible story that I always tell about this because it's Moses and the burning bush. And, you know, the story is that he turned aside to see this bush that was on fire, but it wasn't being consumed. What a lot of people don't think about in that story is that he lived in the desert where bushes caught fire all the time. There was nothing miraculous about seeing a bush that was on fire. He saw it every day. The uniqueness of that story is that he had cultivated a mindset where he recognized the miraculous in the middle of the mundane. Not all of us can get on a mountain bike and go through the woods or take a trip to Moab or, you know, some of these things. But what we can do is we can begin to cultivate attentiveness, where we can slow our pace down and begin to consider what miraculous thing is right here in my midst that I didn't see, you know, what bush is on fire that's not being consumed that I haven't recognized. And I think that if we can begin to be intentional with that in our lives and also to cultivate that in the lives of our kids, I think we can live more creative lives for all of us.
- [48:43]
Ginny Urch
Ooh, that's so good. That's so good. These books are pretty small, but you just get so much out of them, you know, it would fit right in your purse. I want to read one last thing, and then I've got a final question for you. There were so many things in here that I've never considered in that way. And I think that the way that you write about them allows it to sort of seep into your soul, and you take it with you and you think about it. And one of the ones was about limitation. And I think because we live in a society that's so filled with information, like, so, for example, if I'm writing a book. Book, which I've written some books, I feel like I should read every book I would love if I could just read every book that pertains to the book that I'm writing so that I have all of the information. I don't want any limitations. I want to know it all. But you can't. And so you so beautifully talked about limitations in naming the animals, and I've never considered this. You wrote, lack has never seemed to bother God. He created the entire cosmos from nothing. This is God's creative process. He starts with nothing and creates everything. And then you wrote, you see it all through the Bible. You see it in Genesis as he hovers over the void. You see it with the widow and the empty jars that God continued to fill with oil. You see it when God told Jeremiah to open his mouth and promised he would fill it. You see it in the virgin birth when Mary's empty womb was filled. You see it when Jesus told his friends that the Holy Spirit would come upon them and give them words to speak when they had none of their own. You see it with the loaves and the fishes. And he wrote, as we follow him into our own nothingness, our own blank canvases, we position ourselves to encounter faith, which is the most essential ingredient of creativity. A miracle occurs every time I sit down before God in my own emptiness, another song is born when I felt no more could ever be written. Oh, that's good.
- [50:37]
Stephen Roach
Did I write that? Was that in your book?
- [50:40]
Ginny Urch
No, not in my book. Because I'm not that deep of a thinker, and, you know, I'm the type of person that thinks another song can't be written. Yeah, but another song is born when you show up with your nothingness.
- [50:50]
Stephen Roach
Yes.
- [50:51]
Ginny Urch
Limitations are the places where we often see the greatest miracles in our lives. So, you know, we're talking to a lot of parents, and I think in this day and age, parenting, you have a lot of limitations. It's a hard day in age because there's so much going on. There's a lot of limitations. And so to look at it as that limitations are this connection that we have to a God who created things out of nothing. I just think that's so beautiful and encouraging. So the Breath and The Clay Gathering 2025 is happening March 21st to 23rd in Salem, North Carolina. You can get a discount with code DREAM25. I'll make sure I put everything in the show notes. You've got your podcast, you're on YouTube. So many ways that you can connect with you. You've got your music, all of these different books. There's a Creativity Killers E course, lots of different things so that you can connect with Steven and do coaching and all sorts of different things to work on your creativity. It's an important thing. I love these books. Naming the animals and the five creativity killers. We always end our show with one. With one of the same. I don't know how I ever mess this up because I say it, like 400 times. We always end our show with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside?
- [51:57]
Stephen Roach
Favorite memory from childhood that was outside playing basketball?
- [52:02]
Ginny Urch
Yeah.
- [52:03]
Stephen Roach
Definitely not. You know, we. We lived in a little rural town in the north. Northern part of North Carolina. And so I tell people that I grew up in the woods of North Carolina, but there's. There's some truth to that, as I would ride my bike to the woods and I would spend a lot of time just. Just in the woods, in the forest and in little tree houses. We would commandeer deer stands and make them our clubhouses, you know, or whatever that were there. And for me, that was always a beautiful memory. I've always carried that with me through my whole life is just spending time in the forest. I've often. You know, maybe this will sound too poetic or whatever, but I've often seen trees as people. I've often seen them as a community. It's. It's like I can go there and there's a sense of camaraderie in nature that I feel, and I think that came from my childhood and getting to spend some time in the woods there.
- [52:56]
Ginny Urch
And isn't it interesting that you're still doing some of the same stuff? You're still taking your mountain bike and. And that thread continues on through your life. Wow. Steve and I enjoyed these books so much. I'm so excited for you for. Is this your 11th year of your event? 11th year. That's fantastic. Wow. Good for you. Started with a hundred people and just continue to go on with it. I think that's super inspiring for me and for everybody listening. Thank you so much for being here.
- [53:23]
Stephen Roach
Hey, this was amazing. I really enjoy it, and thank you for having me on.