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The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 459: Marriage After Kids Is a Different Game | Dr. Morgan Cutlip, A Better Share
01:03:22
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- [00:01]
Morgan Cutliff
This episode is brought to you by Amazon.
- [00:04]
Jenny Urch
Sometimes the most painful part of getting.
- [00:05]
Morgan Cutliff
Sick is the getting better part. Waiting on hold for an appointment, sitting in crowded waiting rooms, standing in line at the pharmacy. That's painful. Amazon One Medical and Amazon Pharmacy remove those painful parts of getting better with things like 24.
- [00:19]
Jenny Urch
7 virtual visits and prescriptions delivered to your door.
- [00:22]
Morgan Cutliff
Thanks to Amazon Pharmacy and Amazon One Medical Healthcare just got less painful.
- [00:30]
Jenny Urch
Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Urch. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and your favorite Dr. Morgan Cutliff is back. She has a brand new book called A Better Share. It is so wonderful you've been here before. We were talking about loving our kids without losing ourselves. This is such an important topic these days because kids can be a whole lot of work and take up a whole lot of our time. And now you've shifted to marriage. So. Welcome back, Morgan.
- [00:59]
Morgan Cutliff
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
- [01:01]
Jenny Urch
So I have to be honest. I was on the fence about this interview because sometimes I'm like, well, does marriage, you know, how do I fit it in? And I think that it matters because a lot of times there's just some differences of opinions in terms of how we raise our kids. But I was like, oh, am I really going to be able to make a marriage book fit? And then I loved it. I loved it. To me, it's the best marriage book I've ever read. And we've read a fair amount, but it's so goosebumps.
- [01:33]
Morgan Cutliff
Relatable.
- [01:34]
Jenny Urch
Morgan, it's called the Better Share and it is the most relatable marriage book you'll ever read. Why is yours so relatable?
- [01:44]
Morgan Cutliff
Because I live it. You know, both of my books are just. They're like the books that I needed at the time. And I, I've come to a place where I've sort of sorted some of these things out. I sorted out the losing myself after kids. I sorted out this sort of navigating, like marriage in general. I mean, it's. I, I focus in on the mental load, but it really will just help your marriage in general. But my husband and I just, we, we really struggled with this. He travels every single week for work, which adds a different layer to how we navigate, you know, life and the busyness and all the responsibilities. But also one of the things that really, really struck me was that after we had kids, we have a great marriage. We love each other very much, very happy. But I could not believe how quickly I could develop resentment and frustration and Irritation toward my husband after kids entered the picture. It's like, this man I love is driving me absolutely nuts now, and how do we get here? And I know part of it was. Know my first book, what it talks about, but another part was just I took everything on and I was like, why? I think if I summed it up most sort of succinctly, it would be like, why is my life changed so dramatically after kids and yours seemingly has remained the same? And so I knew. Yeah, I knew. Just couples, you know, this is sort of a relatable, universal experience. Research shows that, too, that marriage satisfaction drops after kids. And so it's like, I. I want to speak to this because it's such a impactful thing on how we experience life and parenthood and all the things.
- [03:21]
Jenny Urch
It is a wonderful book. People will laugh. They will be like, yes, yes, that's exactly what's happening in my life. You even said there should be a word that differentiates marriage before kids and marriage after kids, because it's a completely different situation.
- [03:37]
Morgan Cutliff
It is. It really is. I forget my word, but it's ridiculous. It's like, hold on to your pantalone. It's like, it's just. It's just a different experience. I think a lot of couples find that they're really shocked after this, after that sort of shift. After kids, they're like, why? Why am I so angry? I didn't expect this. I wish I would have known. And the reality is, it's really normal. It's so normal to experience this disconnection because. And it makes logical sense. You know, life will regularly pull our relationships apart, and busyness will get in the way of our connection. And so we just have to make some changes after kids to navigate this time differently.
- [04:17]
Jenny Urch
Wouldn't it be a wonderful one to read, too, before you have kids? Like, if you're listening and you're pregnant, you want to read it. Because this is the only book I've found that so deeply explains, even explains at all. Morgan. That's what I'm saying. I've read all these marriage books. I read the Love and Respect one. We did it with a small group. You talked about that in your book. But none of them, none of them holds a candle to this one, because to me, this is the quintessential problem, which is, like you said, that all of a sudden, just innately, the mom finds that she's holding all of these extra things as well as, you know, maybe trying to get her body back. I mean, there's like, the guy just like, he's wearing the same clothes. So it is a tricky situation. So I would love to kick it off with your balloon story. Because I was like, yes, this is the story of my life and my husband always gives me permission to share our same, you know, similar ones. But you're like talking about, I just want to read it because I think everyone will relate. You are getting ready for a birthday party for one of your kids and you say, I have all these things to do. I have to make sure the gift bags are made up. I have to order the food, I have to wrap the presents. I have to confirm the location with a guest. I have to pick up plates and napkins. I have to grab the crap to stuff in the pinata. I have to wash the baseball uniform. I have to finish Christmas shopping. Because the birthday party is never the only thing, right? It's always happening in a season where there's other things too. There's other birthdays, there's Father's Day, there's Easter, whatever it is. Find a recipe for my mom's birthday cake. Because other people have birthdays too. You have to prep the house for your in laws. You have to wash your clothes for an upcoming family trip. You have to make sure the kids shoes fit. That's a huge deal every Sunday for church. Our kids shoes, like, they don't fit, you know, so like, what am I going to do? You know, you got to make sure that they're not dirty. You have to do the dog food and give the dog a bath. So you're just talking about all of these things that are going on. So you say to your husband, Chad, I just need you to take care of the balloons. And you tell him, you know, I want him to have a baseball and I want them to be. There's eight balloons and the number eight and some primary colors. And so you say, you wake up in the middle of the night and you're like, I wonder if he actually did the balloon. And so you go to talk to him and he says, well, just tell me where to get him and I'll go pick him up.
- [06:35]
Morgan Cutliff
Yeah. Oh, and it's wild because I wrote this chapter. This is my intro story to the book. I wrote it like, like three days after this argument. And it was still kind of tense because he's like, well, what happened is I, I come up and I'm like, do you have the balloons? And he's like, he says that? And I was like, no, I knew it. Like, I knew you didn't have it was still living in my head, but his whole thing. And I think this is just sort of how relig relationship arguments begin, where, like, little things grow into big things very rapidly. And, you know his response, you didn't communicate it clearly. And you have such high expectations for parties. And I'm like, you didn't ask any questions, and we go round and round. So, yeah, I wrote this, like, three days after it, and I remember, like, 10, like, really timidly approaching Chad to be like, so I think I'm gonna use that fight as, like, the beginning of my book. Are you okay with that? He's like, oh, let me read it and make sure it's fair. So, yeah, but it's just relatable how we just. Our wires get crossed so easily, and we have to really develop some insights into why some of this stuff happens so we can really come together and communicate more clearly through these. Through these issues.
- [07:47]
Jenny Urch
And then one of the things that you talk about often and you talked about it in your other book. This is something that I have taken with me, Morgan. You know when you have these little things that sort of change you and you take them with you into other conversations was this concept of she fault, which came from Eve Rodsky in a book called Fair Play. But she fault instead of default.
- [08:06]
Morgan Cutliff
Yes.
- [08:07]
Jenny Urch
That the default falls a lot of times on the woman. So you're kind of like, well, why do I have to figure out the balloons? Like, why am I. I am the one that's having to figure out this whole birthday party. So we had. I'll give. I'll give ours. It just happened. Another birthday party and the same thing. It's like you have all these things going on pre and post party that have nothing to do with the party, and you're trying to manage. So Josh had to go to Costco to get the cake and water bottles. And I was working. I mean, I think, you know, there's. There's that part too, where you throw that in there, and you're like, I have deadlines. I have episodes that have to be edited. Like, they have to go up. I have these graphics. Like, I have work that has to be done in a certain timeframe. I wish I could go to Costco and figure it out. But, like, you're gonna go. So you need to get water bottles and you need to get the cake. Well, there was 38 people coming to this party that we had that was at a pool, so people are gonna be swimming for a couple hours. 38 people Costco's water bottles come in a pack of 40. Now, I don't know that. Like, I haven't memorized that yet. I don't have that piece of knowledge in my brain. So at some point while he's at Costco, he texts and says, should I get one or two? And I missed it because I was working. Now they come in a pack of 40, and there's 38 people that will be swimming. So there's like, $6 to get another one. And they don't go bad. So, like, if it were me, I would just buy two. And he didn't. He was like, already in line. And he was like, ugh, I already made it to the line. I didn't go back. Everyone gets one water. Yeah. And don't mix it up with anybody else's. You know? So it's just an interesting. Like, the times when you feel like you have to put in. Thought I had another one I shared at a conference. Cause I was like, josh, I'm gonna share this at a conference, if you're okay with it. I think it's really funny. He was like, it's not funny. I'm like, everyone is gonna laugh. I was in the middle of a book deadline. I mean, I was just like, you know how it is. You're scrambling. You have hardly any seconds to finish. And we were having friends over because it's also really hard to keep up with your friendships when you're working and you have kids. And so we were ordering food, and they were supposed to bring the dessert. Well, she texted last minute and said, we can't bring the dessert. So I said, josh, I just need you to run up to the store, get some stuff for ice cream sundaes. Kids love that. So he runs up to the store. I'm like, frantically. Like, my book is due. Something like that. I'm frantically trying to finish. And he calls, and I actually freaked out because I thought there is no reason that he would call unless something very, very serious happened. Like, he probably got in a car accident. Like, there's something really. And he calls and he goes, am I supposed to get salted nuts or unsalted nuts for the ice cream sundae bar? And I was like, I just. I can't. And I. And I told it on a stage, and it was so funny. And he was like, no one is going to laugh. And I was like, no, everyone is.
- [11:01]
Morgan Cutliff
Everyone. All the women are laughing.
- [11:04]
Jenny Urch
People called him, like, the salted nuts guy the whole weekend. And it was a thing. So just this Thought of you do such a good job. I never even would have been able to put it into words. You call it the triple threat.
- [11:17]
Morgan Cutliff
Yeah.
- [11:18]
Jenny Urch
How do you explain to people and then you're explaining it also to the husband because the woman says the husband doesn't get it. They just think, well, it's just a list of things you got to do. I have a list. I have things I have to do at work. How do you explain how this is different?
- [11:32]
Morgan Cutliff
Yeah, so this is a little bit of a lengthy answer, but I think it's really important for people to understand really what the mental load is. One of the biggest struggles is exactly what you said, is that when we try to communicate about it, the women bear sort of the weight of explaining it and the men really, really struggle to fully grasp it. So the mental load at like a 30,000 foot definition is just the seemingly never ending running to do list we carry around in our brains that has two key componen. Most of the stuff that's part of it is invisible. So it makes it really hard to get appreciation around, which is a really big one. And it also makes it really hard to explain to our partners and outsource and all these things. The second is that it takes up cognitive real estate. So just crowds out room for other things. And women tend to hold a lot in there. So it's like crowds out room for peace, for patience, for being present, for regulating our emotions, for getting in the mood for sex. All of these things take up energy and space that the mental load occupies. Everybody has one. I remember my husband, when we first started these conversations many, many years ago, he's like, well, I got one too. And then we're like arguing about whose mental load is more and more important and heavier. And everybody has one. So it's not a women's issue. However, when it comes to home and family life, we see time and time again through the research that women carry the bulk of the mental load for home and family stuff. So the in the weeds definitions what you're talking about. And this is what I think is really helpful for people to totally grasp it. So if you imagine a Venn diagram, three circles. These are the three domains of tasks that are involved in the mental lo. So the first is the physical. This is where stereotypically guys just crush it. They're like, I'll mow the lawn, I'll do the dishes, you feel better. And we're like no. And they get frustrated. Why? I I'm doing the things, you know, it's just Carrying out the activities. The second is the mental, which is like the making of the lists, the thinking through what you need from the grocery store. A lot of work life is our mental domain of tasks. And then the third is the emotional. And this one is really the differentiator. So the emotional labor of the home and family life is like the ongoing calculations we're making to try to, like, maximize positive outcomes and experiences for our family. So you can do this in, like, the short term or the long term. So short term is like, how do I make a good dinner so that the kids eat enough food that they're not asking for snacks at bedtime and they get a night good night's sleep and they don't get dysregulated thinking through all of these scenarios or long term, which is like educational decisions, you know, how to make sure they're around good people, have a good education, all this stuff. So the stakes feel high. It's really hard to outsource because it requires a deep knowing of your family. And it's exhausting because it's. It's ongoing all the time, making these calculations, and it follows you everywhere. So you can be whiplashed no matter if you're at work or you're at home, out of the present, back into the mental load. So this is a triple threat. At the intersection of these three circles is what I call the triple threat. And what this means is that the majority of tasks of home and family life really exist there. So the seemingly simple things when we're like, rattling off to our. To our husbands or our partners, like, hey, you know, I gotta make dinner. I'm overwhelmed. And they're like, I don't get it. Do the, you know, just cook the thing. Like, I don't understand. Why is that so exhausting? It's because it includes tasks from the emotional, the mental, and the physical domains. We're thinking through how do I get my kids enough nutrition, how do I make sure everybody eats enough food? How do I make sure our kids don't get hangry later? You know, we're thinking through all these things. And so the simple stuff unpacks to include a lot more energy, mental work, heart. And so that's why we feel pretty overwhelmed a lot of the time. And that we feel like our. Our plates are really, really full. It's not the simple tasks, it's what they unpack to contain.
- [15:33]
Jenny Urch
And no other book talks about this. I've never read it anywhere that explains.
- [15:37]
Annie F. Downs
It to such depth.
- [15:38]
Jenny Urch
And I think even with grocery Shopping. And I talked to this woman, Kendra Adachi. She was talking about how just grocery shopping, it's like that is all of the. I can't think of what it's called. It's like when you, when you have to complete a task, like from start to finish, it's executive function.
- [15:55]
Morgan Cutliff
Yes.
- [15:56]
Jenny Urch
Like, this is a major executive function skill because you have to figure out, like if you're trying to figure out meal plan for a week, you're trying to figure out, okay, who is home when who's home for this kid has sports, are we home? Which dinners are we home. You're trying to do it in a budget. Usually there's some sort of like a money constraint. You're trying to do it within what's in. Do I have space in my fridge? I mean, you go to the store and you're like, I'm going to come home, you know, can I get the Costco size? Do we have space in the fridge? I've got to clean that out. What, what should I be throwing out? So, and then you forget something and then you're like, well, I gotta run, I forgot this one thing. And then you wrote this. You wrote, if I make chicken parmesan, Noah won't eat the chicken because it's breaded, and Maya won't eat the tomato sauce because it hurts her stomach. So I could make Mac and cheese, but my husband doesn't like that, you know, so it really is so much more than just making the meal. And I like that you talk about the emotional side of it because the mom is often carrying the emotions or thinking about the emotional ramifications for the family.
- [16:58]
Annie F. Downs
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- [18:22]
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- [19:49]
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- [21:06]
Jenny Urch
You talk about treadmill tasks versus one and done jobs. Can you talk about that in this context as well?
- [21:15]
Morgan Cutliff
Yeah. So treadmill tasks are the ones that as soon as you finish, you have to do it again. And it's not, you know, not 100% split in this way. But for the most part, women tend to handle these treadmill tasks, whereas men handle these sort of one and done. So you do it once you see your results, or you do it very. Just kind of infrequently, you get to see your results really satisfying. But treadmill tasks are like laundry, cooking dinner. I think I joke in the book, it's like, there's no relief from. From cooking dinner. And. Except death basically is like the one time where it's like, you're done, you can be done with dinner, but it's like as soon as you complete the task, you gotta be thinking about the next time you have to complete it. And there's something that's just sort of draining about that concept and about sort of living your life where you're like, there's no end in sight to some of these things. And I joke in the book because my husband, it's actually still not done, which is wild. But he built this, like, outdoor kitchen. And it's like, that is a one and done task number one. It took a lot of time away from our family. I'm grateful. So, like, don't get me wrong, I love it. It's amazing. But also when people come over, he gets to like, show it off and like, hey, look at this thing that I built. Super satisfying. It's good for our soul to have an end and to feel that sense of completion and to be able to sort of marvel at it. It's like, nobody's walking in my house being like, let me See how you fold your clothes. Dang, that looks good. Like nobody does that. So there's a lot of things about these treadmill tasks versus one and done that just we experience completely differently. And I think that we don't really reflect on that and I don't think our partners reflect on that. That this just never ending loop that sometimes we exist in, or often we exist in, in. In just modern family life is very draining. You're not getting a lot of great feedback around it and there's no end in sight. And so it just continues to sort of take up space in your physical sort of existence and also your, your mental and your emotional.
- [23:12]
Jenny Urch
And I want to be clear that in this book a better share. This is not just about kind of complaining about that. It's about explaining it and it's about how to deal with it. Because this is a part of life and I think just understanding and having verbiage around it because you, you do this wonderful thing, Morgan, where you have people who have written in and who write about how they feel about it. Like the, you know, a mom might say, my partner just doesn't understand how much work goes into running a household and caring for our children. He downplays what I do and makes me feel small with his response when I share how I'm feeling, even if my delivery is positive. So you have a lot of feedback like this in the book and you're teaching people how to deal with it and also explaining something that to me I've never read about, that I don't feel like has been explained well before. Even when I'm reading it myself, I'm like, yes, that's why these treadmill tasks you write, a woman has a sense of never being finished, never getting a break, always having to be productive. You know, one's going to be like, what'd you serve for lunch last Tuesday? You know, like, but, but if the guy builds a tree house or the guy, whatever it is, like you said, there's that sense of accomplishment. So just these different things to be aware of. And then you talk about, well, how do you bring it up and what's the best way to approach it and how do we just deal with this onslaught of work? You've got all these resources, you have ideas of things that you can outsource that wouldn't be maybe the emotional part that other people could help with. So I just find that it is so valuable. I'm so glad I was like, yes, let's do it. Cause I'm so, so Glad that I read the book and that that brings up the part of delegating because, and we've talked about this a little bit, but you talk about delegating that it's not just, you can't just automatically delegate everything because it involves this deep knowledge of your particular family. So for example, one of the examples you give is your daughter's leggings. Now this is also super relatable where you've got, and we've got some kids, it's like they're not gonna, you know, they're not gonna wear that. We were, when we just went on a tour and at one of the stops, it was just, it was way warmer than we were expecting. We're coming from Michigan, it's middle of February. So everyone's got like pants and long sleeve shirts. And we get to Georgia and it's like 60, which feels like balmy. I mean, it's like we could be in the tropics coming from Michigan in February. So our daughter wanted to play on the playground and she didn't have shorts and a T shirt. And she was complaining she was hot. The other kids too. So this grandma had come along with us. Not her grandma, but someone else's grandma. And she went to the store to get everybody shorts and T shirts. And I had to be like, it's gotta be like this. She's not gonna wear it if it's like that. You know, this whole thing. So you talk about like Effie's leggings and you're like, this is a, this is a whole thing in and of itself. If finding the perfect leggings was a valuable talent, I'd be heading to Vegas. So can you just talk about that piece of you? It seems like you should be able to hand stuff off, but you can't necessarily do that in a lot of situations.
- [26:13]
Morgan Cutliff
Yeah, I think this is a good, a good point. And I think that when we're thinking about delegating, we have to take into consideration, you know, what we're good at, what we like to do, and like, just cater to people's strengths. I mean, my husband would be like, suck it up. Wear the leggings. Like, he would not be sensitive to our daughter's sensory needs around leggings. So this is something that I'm going to take on and I think that's okay. You know, there's, there's different mentalities and perspectives about the mental load. Some people are like, it has to be 50, 50. I don't think that's realistic for Modern family life and how we all function. You know, some people like you should have. You should be able to know. To know how to do all the things. Almost like partners are interchangeable, which I feel like is not very efficient. So I think that we have to think about what are we good at, what do we like to do? And, you know, sometimes we need to leave room for our partners to surprise us. I probably like 10 years ago, I don't know, it feels like a lifetime ago. I was listening to a podcast and this couple was talking about how they would find a babysitter and the. And the wife usually would find the babysitter. And this time the husband was like, I'll just take care of it. And so he ended up, you know, if you think about how you'd find one, I. I would like, text a sitter, wait like two hours before they get back to me, and then they'll say they can't do it. Then I text another one, you know, but the husband just did a group text to like four or five sitters and was like, whoever gets back to me first gets the job. She's like, he had a sitter in like five minutes. She said, I had no idea he was so good at this. So he. That's something he took on. So I think we need to leave a little space for it. I think in the book, I talk about my husband with cardboard boxes. Like, I am quick moving. It can come off as lazy sometimes with how I handle stuff, but I'm just not like an attention to detail type of person. So I'll like chuck boxes in the garbage can completely intact. I don't break them down. I know this will maybe bug a lot of people, but my husband will go out there with like a razor knife and he cuts them like snowflake size cuts them up. We'll fit like hundreds of boxes somehow in our garbage can. Like, I'm not gonna take that on. So I think we really need to be thoughtful about how delegate things. Another thing is sometimes when it comes to just like the, the logistical renegotiation of tasks, we don't need to go through everything we do and shuffle it around. Sometimes it's taking one big thing that unpacks to include a lot of things and handing it over. Like, years ago, I handled the finances. Okay, listen, we're like riding on the verge every month when I handle the finances. I'm like, I think we got enough to cover it. Like, I'm not good at that. That is not my skill set. My Husb in business. Why was. Why did I have any, like, room to handle finances? So he ended up taking that over. But that unpacks to include things like calling the insurance company when they bill us incorrectly, you know, changing over car insurances, following up on things. You know, that. That unpacks to include a lot of things. And so we handed that off many, many years ago, and it freed up a ton of space. So we have to sort of expand the way we think about delegating some of these things to have a little bit more nuance.
- [29:20]
Jenny Urch
And I just love that the book walks you through how to do it. How do we have these conversations, especially when there's a lack of understanding, even. I feel like there's a lack of understanding, even on the woman's part. I would not have been able to explain this without the verbiage from your book. And then you read the book, and you're like, yes, this is exactly it. I'm in the triple threat situation. Here's how it feels. That's why I said, I just think it's a wonderful marriage book. I say this a lot. I think that when you're in it, you write the great book. Like, my friend Greta Eskridge just wrote a book about how to talk to your kids about pornography. That's a great person to write that book because she's right there in it and has walked through it in this day and age and has suggestions for families right now. And I find that those books are very, very valuable. So this one is called A Better Share. You will love it, listeners. You will love it. It's the best marriage book I've ever read. Okay, let's talk about money.
- [30:12]
Morgan Cutliff
Yes.
- [30:13]
Jenny Urch
So this comes up a lot where you say, you know, life costs money. And people will say, my husband thinks. I think this is really common. My husband thinks that if he's earning the money, then his job is done and he has fulfilled his obligation.
- [30:27]
Morgan Cutliff
Yeah. Ooh. Okay, this one's a big one. And can I just say a side note about the book? So up until pretty much now, it was just between my editor and me as we were moving through the book, that one of my deepest, like, secret agendas and goals for this book is that it's a book that men will enjoy reading. And the. The biggest reason for that is that a lot of times women will say things like, I cannot carry one more thing. And now I got to carry the responsibility of explaining this stuff to my partner. So I wanted to write a book that didn't stir up defensiveness, and that did the heavy lifting. And both partners will gain insights. But I want you to know the feedback from men has been so good, and that's been really encouraging. Okay, Money. This is a big one that I hear from women in my community all the time. I'll hear from this.
- [31:11]
Jenny Urch
I want to back up. I want to back up for one second.
- [31:13]
Morgan Cutliff
Yeah.
- [31:13]
Jenny Urch
Because I want to agree with you on that. Because one of the things that you talk about is that men really just want peace. That's one of the main things that they're looking for. You talk about the three main things that a woman is looking for and the three main things a man is looking for. And the one of them is peace. They really want peace in the home, and they don't want to have this turbulence, and they don't want to have these misunderstandings. And so this book is a path to peace because you cover the things that no one else is talking about, that no one really even understands what's going on and why does this feel so off? And so it is a book that is a clear path to peace.
- [31:52]
Morgan Cutliff
Yes. Because I think there's. We lack a lot of deep understanding about the dynamics in our relationships. And when we can understand this and we can understand the different perspectives and the different experiences and how we're shaped, then it sort of depersonalizes stuff that feels very personal in our relationship. So that's one of my goals. And I think that even applies to sort of this sort of money thing. You know, men and women are socialized very differently in our society. So this is. Again, I'm going to paint with broad strokes here, but for the most part, men are socialized to provide and protect financial and physical security.
- [32:30]
Jenny Urch
I had the boy crisis author on.
- [32:32]
Morgan Cutliff
Oh, okay. That book kind of changed my life. It kind of changed my life. Yes. I love that book.
- [32:39]
Jenny Urch
It changed my life, too. I actually consider it to be a marriage book because it reminded me of how important the dad is, that all these little annoyances are small potatoes in comparison to how important a dad is in the picture. And Dr. Warren Farrell is phenomenal. That book is very long and I loved it. I heard about it in Happenstance. Someone mentioned it just in a passing conversation, and it completely changed my life.
- [33:06]
Morgan Cutliff
Yes, same. I listened to it a long time ago and adore it. And it's like so many things like the rough housing at night. It like, reframes a lot of that stuff. And I think. Yeah, I think parents and couples need to read that book. So men, socialize provide and protect. Women are socialized to prioritize our relationships, even over ourselves. So we're often then judged. So we're socialized to kind of prioritize these things, but then we're judged based on these sort of metrics by society, by ourselves, by our, you know, people that we know and we interact with all the time. And so because of this, we tend to focus on different things, prioritize different things. I shared recently, one time I asked my husband about his travel and I was like, don't you feel guilty? Like, I remember early on in motherhood feeling guilty just like going the grocery store alone. And that's like, that's not even a fun thing to do. And he's like, you know, I miss you guys, but no, because I'm providing for my family. And it was just that moment of like, oh, that's your top box. You have to check. And so we're just really looking at things a little bit differently, coming at it from different experiences. So when it comes to money, what I hear from women in my community a lot is one, if they're a stay at home mom, they're like, well, this is my job, so I shouldn't have to ask for help and I shouldn't need more help. Or if they earn less, they're like, well, I don't make as much money, so I should kind of carry more at home. And I just don't think that this sort of mentality translates well into the home and family life. So currency in our society is money. Money equals value, money equals power. The more you make, the more seemingly valuable and powerful you are. So if we take this into the home, it makes the value of, of a stay at home mom, or of the care of taking care of a home and family, it, it devalues that. And I think that's really dangerous for how we operate in our family. So I believe we have to switch the currency of home and family life from money to time and energy. So when both partners are together, whether it's, you know, whatever your work situation is, at the end of the day, when you're both home and you're off hours, this should be your shared time. And then you can use time, time and energy to negotiate, like who can handle what things, check in with each other. How are you doing? How much energy do you have? Do you have time for this? How can I support you? How can you support me? So we have to have this sort of flexible metric sometimes, but it's so important that we start to Shift this narrative or else we will never really find this sense of fairness in our relationships. And just a side note, you know, I think there's a recent study that found that stay at home moms, there needs to be a better term for stay at home moms because it's not like we're just hanging out doing nothing. It sounds like we're being so passive, but work like 97 hours a week, that's like two and a half full time jobs. So how, in what world is it, is it fair and is it right for there to be no support and no give and take on the home front when someone being home with the kids and taking care of the home and family life is putting in that many hours? So we have to really, really shift this way of thinking.
- [36:19]
Jenny Urch
It's so many hours. And that statistic is for parents who have kids that are ages 5 to 12. I mean sometimes I'm around my kids, I was, yesterday I was around, sometimes I'm around my friend's kids. So our kids are out, out of the like little early stages. Yeah, our youngest is eight. But I'll be with friends who have four year olds and I'm like, those four year olds are so volatile. I mean you forget like they seem, they can talk and they can walk and you know, they, they have a pretty good understanding of life when they're four. But they are like hysterical about this, that or the other thing that you put the mustard on their sandwich or whatever it is. So. And then you go even younger and you have like, I was holding my friend's baby, I was like, you can't.
- [37:02]
Morgan Cutliff
It doesn't end function.
- [37:04]
Jenny Urch
Yeah, you're up in the night on, on. And the time this thought of working, you know, two and a half full time jobs without ever a break, that's the other thing. And you look ahead at the horizon. If you have a two year old, if you have a nine month old and you look ahead at the horizon and you're like, I'm not getting a week off for Christmas. I'm not getting, you know, I can't just take a week off. None. Especially because like you said, caring for children involves this deep sense of knowledge. And so there, there often is not someone who can give you a real break. And so that is very, very overwhelming.
- [37:43]
Morgan Cutliff
I just think we have to, you know, partners really need to understand that when we support the moms, the whole family really functions better too. So there's like, there's a heart piece to making these shifts in your relationship which is that you have to, you know, have, have the heart and the desire to really care for your partner. You know, moms, parents in general are struggling, but moms are really struggling with burnout and with overwhelm. And when we're in that state, we are not our best versions of ourselves in our relationship with our children or in our relationships with our partners. And so it's so incredibly important that, that moms do get that support and that partners see the value of it in terms of taking care of the entire family system.
- [38:26]
Jenny Urch
And I think when you show the depth of the cognitive load of what you have to think through in order to meal plan for a family, let's say, and you start to translate that into how much would it cost you? How much would it cost you to have a chef? You know, how much would it cost you to have someone who, you know, makes sure that there's always toilet paper or whatever, you know, to shop for the kid who has some sensory needs, that type of thing. It shifts your perspective. But you say the currency should be time and energy. And I think that is like, I think back to the times when, like, I've worked out of the home and I've been a mother. Energy is a big deal. Like at 6 o'clock you might not have any energy. If you're home with a bunch of little kids all day, you might just be completely zapped, which is maybe different from if you had been around adults all day doing some pretty cool work things. Or maybe not. Like your work may also be exhausting. Maybe you're a teacher, you know, maybe you're a nurse, you're on your feet all day. So I love that you'd shift that perspective because it's going to be different for every single family. And I want to reiterate, I've said it already, but you go through all of these different ways of you can replacement phrases, things that you can say, how to deal with weaponized incompetence. You talk about navigating the death spiral. Like, how do you deal with these conversations? How do you deal with, you know, avoiding the defensiveness and all of those types of things in a way that builds your marriage.
- [39:50]
Morgan Cutliff
You're just making me think of something I think that, that people need to hear, especially women need to hear. So I collected data for the book. Data, data. I surveyed over 500 women and then I interviewed men and women for the book and I asked women in the survey, you know, what do you want most from your partner around the mental load. And the first Thing was more initiatives taking, which I talk about like a formula for that in the book. But the second was appreciation and acknowledgement. And this goes back to those early years, especially of having little kids. And really throughout the course of our relationships. Appreciation is so important. But if you really think about it too, a lot of times when you're in the home, in the family life, when you're doing the majority of the work there, there is no good feedback loop for you. That's another thing. There is nobody really saying, you know, coming and patting you on the back, giving you your monthly evaluation, hitting you up with a bonus, sending you a paycheck. It's like there's no money involved, which is a representation of value and appreciation. There's no, you know, monthly get together where you're given praise and feedback about things. Usually your feedback comes in the form of putting together a stellar lunch and having your kid on the floor with a tantrum because you sliced their sandwich the wrong way. This just highlights how important it is to be free flowing with appreciation and appreciation that highlights how valuable and visible your partner is in your relationship and also how much power our partners have to sort of fill us up so we can keep going. I remember like for 10 years my husband and I went round and round about this one because he just could not seem to give me appreciation. That hit right for me. And I remember I was like, I just need, like, just like thank me or something. And he was like, you're a good mom. And I was like, that's lame. Like I just, I was like, that's generic. You know, you said that before about our old neighbor from D.C. like, you say that about everybody. And, and then, then this is a little. Things become big where he'd say to me, you know, you know, you just, I just don't need that and you do and you need too much and I just can't get it right. Take me as I am. So we would end up in this sort of spiral of an argument when I just need this appreciation. I remember finally I was like, you don't think you need it, but you get it constantly at your job. I sat through a six hour banquet once that was just all about gushing appreciation. Like you, this is not fair. You are my sole source of appreciation. So how do you want me to feel in our relationship? And when you give it to me, I can go like three months on a good compliment. So this is a skill you have to learn. And, and I actually gave my husband a formula. I give it in the book for how to give a really good compliment that will actually you get some mileage out of.
- [42:34]
Jenny Urch
It's so good. It's such a good book. Oh my goodness. I can't. I could hardly believe that I almost passed it over because I was like.
- [42:41]
Morgan Cutliff
I'm grateful you didn't marriage.
- [42:43]
Jenny Urch
I'm like. Because the other one was like this is a, you know, this is like a totally easy fit. It's about you know, like mom burnout and you know, how do we take care of ourselves when we're also taking care of kids. So I was like, oh, this is a great fit. And then it was like last one. I was like, no, I obviously I adore you as a person. And I liked the other book. So I was like well sure, we'll, we'll try and make marriage fit. And then I was like, oh my gosh. I mean like a formula for giving admiration. I had this idea years ago back when our kids were younger of like having. This was like my, this is probably my million dollar idea that I passed off that someone else could take of having some sort of a, a subscription service where you would sign up and you would get like, like maybe your husband would sign the. His wife up and then you would get here and their little certificates in the mail like you potty trained a toddler, you know, whatever. And it would come and it was like are the most. Whatever the thing is. And, and you know, you made it through nursing you whatever, you know, 365 dinners down, whatever. Because there is not like you said, there is nothing. And even just that feedback from like colleagues that you might get or you know, a boss or I mean if, if you've worked in the workforce at, in any length, there is stuff like that. I worked at Chuck E. Cheese. I got the employee of the month. I was so good at being the rat and my name went up on a plaque. So I was probably still there. You know, these are the types of things that don't happen when you're at home and you're working two and a half full time jobs forever and forever. And yeah, there's. There's no acknowledgement. So what an important thing to talk about.
- [44:23]
Annie F. Downs
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- [48:16]
Jenny Urch
So I just, I've said it already. I want to keep saying it. It's not about harping, like this book you talk about. The enemy is not each other. The enemy is the fact that we're in this really busy culture. The enemy is the fact that we don't have generational wisdom anymore. The enemy is the fact that there is this hustle. The enemy is social media because you feel like you're not living up to other people's expectations or their life looks like this and mine doesn't look like that. So the enemy is not the spouse. This is a giving a clear expectation as to why are we stuck in some of these different issues. So one of the ones is asking. So when someone just comes and I thought this is great, there's really great information in here for children too. Like, how do you incorporate the children into the family unit and making sure that the family is functioning? And so a lot, lot of times men will ask, what should I do? How, how can I help? And you say women find that extremely irritating. And here's why.
- [49:12]
Morgan Cutliff
Yes, because it implies that we own everything until it's delegated. And some people, there's varying degrees of sensitivity to being asked, but every time a partner asks, it's again, it's like we are the coaches and they're just the players and we're sort of like directing them. But it also means that we continue to, to store all of this stuff in our brains. And so one of the, you know, I don't think asking is bad. I think women have to be comfortable with asking a lot of, a lot of, you know, and I'm on. It's because I'm online too much. I have to like qualify things I say more often than I feel like is normal. But you know, a lot of women will push back against like, I shouldn't have to ask. They should know. And I have a whole explanation as to why I. I don't think that's always true. But asking needs to be rebranded for the. For the women as involving and inviting our partners into participation. Also, part of handing things off is making the invisible visible. And when we ask, it helps to do that. So we got to step toward our partners with asking a little bit more. But then our partners have to step into more initiative taking. They need to take some responsibility. And so we talk a lot, I talk a lot in the book about this. Shared responsibility, shared accountability. But taking initiative requires deep knowing. So I have a formula for this in the book, and I'll give this one because I didn't give the appreciation one. But there's. Requires deep knowing. You cannot, you know, step into more initiative if you don't know where things are kept in the house, if you don't know if you need the salted or unsalted nuts, if you don't know what's on the schedule, if you don't know people's preferences, it's hard to step in initiative taking. And I think this is where a partner sometimes miss is that they're not taking. They're not like, heightening their awareness and taking in information, and they're sort of just borrowing our brains because we're really good at this. And. And so one of the calls to action, especially for stereotypically for men, is to work on increasing their knowledge around the home and family life. And so I give the Buffet principle in the book, which I. I always want to say Jimmy Buffett, and I'm like, I have to stop myself.
- [51:18]
Jenny Urch
Is it Warren?
- [51:19]
Morgan Cutliff
It's Warren. But I always. I think I just want to be in Margaritaville. Like, it's like this subconscious thing. No, it's Warren Buffett, but he talks about the Buffett principle in terms of the accumulation of knowledge. All this is, is that every day you go to bed knowing more than when you woke up. And so I challenge men to. To do this every single day around three areas. So one, learn something new about your partner every single day. Just one thing. Just one new thing. Learn something new about your kids, if you have kids every single day, learn one new thing about how your home and family life functions every single day. So you learn three new things a day. When you take this knowledge and you translate it into action, that's initiative taking. And so men have to work to sort of heighten their awareness, get to know some of these three things intentionally every single day, and then, then they can step into initiat taking with confidence and assuredness that they're sort of like, doing it the right way. Because I think sometimes that's, that's one of the worries. I don't do it the right way. So that's, that's, that's their responsibility and their work to do.
- [52:26]
Jenny Urch
It's so good. You wrote the thought of delegating something in the moment and explaining it, which is like Costco's water bottles come in a pack of 40. And you know, like you, it's too much. It's too much like, I just need you to take care of the water. So the thought of delegating can add to overwhelm. And I love this. Morgan, you put actual verbiage. I say this all the time. You can have a concept and be like, I get that that's helpful. But if you don't have the actual verbiage, a lot of times you get stuck and your book has the verbiage. So I'm just going to give one example of this. Now. This is a comprehensive book. I mean, it is going through so many different things and there's additional resources as well, like mental load list and energy assessments and dinner ideas. So, I mean, it is phenomenal. It'll be out by the time this podcast goes. It's called the Better Share is going to be the best marriage book you've ever owned. You have this. This is one example. How can I help? Replacement phrases. And what a wonderful thing to start teaching your kids. Like, I see this with our sons already, they're a little bit more on the periphery. The girls will sort of dive in more and the boys are on the periphery. And I have to say, I need you to look around the room and see are there things that you could be doing. And Mikaleen Duclef talks about that in her book Hunt Gather Parent that one of your best assets in life is being able to see what needs to be done and then being able to step in and do it. But you have to be able to see. So how can I help? Replacement phrases. You can say, I'm gonna. You can offer a solution and then ask if there needs to be revisions. For example, I was thinking about the party we have this week, which even right there. Even right there.
- [54:07]
Morgan Cutliff
Wouldn't that be life giving?
- [54:08]
Jenny Urch
Yes. You're thinking about the party, too. Oh, that's so great. Okay. I was thinking about the party we had this week. And that goes to your point of knowing what's going on. Like, it's hard to take initiative if you're not aware. I was thinking about the party we have this week and thought, I take care of cleaning the decks. Does that sound good to you? Or do you have something else you want me to prioritize? Come on. That one thing is going to change your whole life.
- [54:32]
Morgan Cutliff
That one thing. I know, I know.
- [54:35]
Jenny Urch
And I liked this. Can you show me how you like this done that way? I don't have to ask next time because one of the things that you talk about, and I think that this is, this really matters. I've thought about this. There's an empathy piece here where I've packed a diaper bag every day for five years. And if the spouse has to pack the diaper bag, well, they haven't packed it every day for five years. Like, I've thought I couldn't seamlessly step into my husband's line of work. So, you know, to expect him to seamlessly step into mine is not really a fair expectation. Like, you had this joke about how your husband takes the kids to the pool, he doesn't bring the towels. And you're like, well, you know, a guy should know. Anybody should know. You have to bring towels. But some places have towels. I mean, you know, you just, you, you have empathy there. But I love that about. Tell me how so that next time I don't have to ask.
- [55:25]
Morgan Cutliff
Yeah, I think that that goes a long way. And it also just is like, it shows that our partner is invested in so of getting to know these things and learning these things. And I think, you know, I really, like, try to encourage both partners to step toward each other. So, you know, I shared that towel story. My husband, My husband thought that it was a community pool. He, he thought that they were provided. I was, I joke, like a luxury resort or something. Like, he'd never been, you know, I got a lot of flack of like, he should know, he should know. But I just think, listen, criticism isn't a great place for change, especially in our relationships. And so if both people can have a deeper understanding of each other, appreciation of our differences, appreciation for how we show up differently in our relationship and how that affects our interactions and can come to the relationship with some humility, some empathy, we're going to really get a lot more mileage out of that and a lot of deeper and lasting change than we will with sort of just griping at each other about these things.
- [56:29]
Jenny Urch
And I like that. I mean, the humor works to a degree. Yes. Our luxury, you know, our luxury pool. Pool membership. Or like, you know, like, we are having the World's least thirsty guests come to our pool party, or, you know, whatever, you can kind of joke around about it. And I do think that that's funny. But I also, I like that empathy piece of just, you know, you said. And I think this is sometimes tricky. And I've thought this before. You're like, well, they're super competent at work. So sometimes I'm like, how is it that you're managing X amount of people or you're running these budgets or, you know, you're traveling and doing these presentations, and yet you don't know to bring a towel to a pool? Like, it would be easy to kind of be snarky like that, but to have that empathetic response of when you are the default person, the other person does not necessarily have all that common sense, or they've been relying on the other person for it. So you can see how that would, you know, cause some problems in the long term. And then you have all of these ideas of how to deal with that.
- [57:31]
Morgan Cutliff
Yeah, and I, like, I think you can sum it up sort of by saying, like, the game's just a little bit rigged. I feel like anytime we can depersonalize some of this stuff and if we can depersonalize and externalize, it's going to help us move forward in a more productive way. So, you know, the game is rigged for a lot of reasons. How we're socialized, our early experiences where we're prioritizing our energy, how, you know, even our hormonal differences can sort of rig us in these ways. And so, again, it's like, the more we understand that, the more we can show up with. With empathy and understanding and, like, actually ready to. To move towards some productive change. Plus, it's nuanced. Like, there's a lot of nuance to these interactions that I feel like is missing sometimes from the broader conversation or when people just kind of want to be snarky. It's like with that story about the pool. My husband travels every week. Somebody was like, like, he should know. He's around for packing the diaper bag. I'm like, no, he's not. Like, he's not. And so it's not really on his list of things that he's really paying attention to. Plus, he's not around for it. So I think we have to. We got to get into the nuance and some of this stuff to really make a difference, right?
- [58:37]
Jenny Urch
Yeah, they're not. You know, I had this experience where we were at, like, at this church. We were at and they had this. They have this cafe attached. And we were with. I was with. With my kids. And then the dad. The dad of the other kids. The way. I don't think the wife was around, but she wasn't there that exact moment. And that dad went and bought ice cream for all his kids in front of my kids. And like, you just. You don't do that.
- [59:00]
Morgan Cutliff
Like, you don't do that.
- [59:02]
Jenny Urch
But how would he know? How would he know? Like, he wouldn't do that.
- [59:07]
Morgan Cutliff
That's the thing. Like, dads are just kind of like. They just sort of like. I don't know the right word. I want to say, like, roughen it or something, but they're just like. It's kind of like a beautiful concept. I feel like the boy crisis helped me think through this a little bit differently, too. But, like, this whole pool example, I mean, the ice cream one. Guys just don't think that they're. They're like, whatever. You can't have any. They can and deal with it. It's sort of, like, kind of ruthless, I guess, a little bit. But I mean, even the pool thing, I remember when we talked about it later, he's like, it was fine. Like, whatever. They're gonna be a little wet on the ride home. Like, whatever. It's fine. And even still to this day, when I leave the house with the kids, my kids are 9 and 11, you know, and I'll be. I'll have them get their stuff. I'm not doing it anymore for them. But, like, we'll leave with a lot more things than my husband will, and he will deal with those consequences. If they complain about it, he's going to have to deal with that. So I'm not. I'm not going to judge him for that. It's just like, he kind of like, operates on a different wavelength with different expectations when he's in charge of the kids. And I think a lot of dads are like that. We don't take as much fluff. I'm not packing all. All these snacks. Like, we're just gonna make it work. And there is something beneficial about that, too. And we have to understand that, like, our. Our kids are gonna someday exist in this modern, like, really intense world, and they're gonna have to adapt and adjust. And not everything's going to be exactly how mom did it. And I think that's another piece. Let's. Let's appreciate some of the ways our partner shows up differently, and we might not want to do it that way. Might be different than our expectations. But there are benefits to some of these things, too.
- [60:43]
Jenny Urch
Well, it's so good. No one's gonna show up and give you your bag of pirates booty, right? I mean, I. I think that that's actually a really big deal. They were fine, and there were people there that they could borrow snacks from, and that's just kind of. Moms always have extra anyway, so, you know, if there's other moms there, they've got snacks to give to you. Because you always know that you don't pack just for your. I have. You know, occasionally my husband will pack. I'm running around, I'm like, I need you to pack food. But you have to pack, like, enough for two families, because all the other kids are going to want our food, and we're going to. You don't just pack the exact amount. But a dad wouldn't know that. And I read this really good book by Stephen Rinella called Outdoor Kids in an Inside World. And he's like the meat eater. He's like a hunter. And, you know, like, that. You know, just a guy. Like, a guy. And he has this whole concept of wearing it dry, where you don't bring a change of clothes. You just wear your wet stuff until it dries. And it's become a thing in our family. Like, our kids will be like, we're wearing it dry. You know, it's a whole thing. But he got in a huge fight with his wife. He talks about it in his book because she said, no, we should bring more than one outfit for these kids on a camping trip. And he's like, well, no, they're just gonna wear it dry. And then the one kid pooped in his clothes.
- [61:47]
Morgan Cutliff
Oh.
- [61:48]
Jenny Urch
And there wasn't. You know, they were little kids, and so it becomes like this. This situation of, what do you do? And. But like you said, that is helping kids develop grit to be like, well, they're gonna be fine. And they are fine. They made it home from the pool, and they're fine.
- [62:03]
Morgan Cutliff
They're fine. And also when the. Like. Like, when my husband forgot all these things the next time, he didn't. You know, it's like. And also, because I didn't, like, micromanage that process, I didn't come in like, let me see what you packed. Did you bring this? Did you bring that? That I. Which I used to do a lot, I just sort of was like, I'm out of here. I'm crispy. At this point, when I sent him to the pool, he. He sort of failed in some ways because, you know, he didn't have the snacks, he didn't have the towels, all the things. So. So you learn, you learn by just making these mistakes or next time I'm going to do this differently. And so I think too, you know, again, it's nuanced and some, some people get bugged by these things, but it's like it's, we got to leave a little bit of space for our partners to, to fail to figure it out, to find their own way without rescuing them. Because when we rescue them or when we take over, we end up really making sure that we're always the one ones doing these things. And at the end of the day, what I want the most is for women to feel lighter and to be more, to be whole in our relationships. And we have to step back so that our partners can step in and handle some of this stuff and give us, give us a minute. Sheesh.
- [63:17]
Jenny Urch
Dr. Morgan Cutlip is an author and relationship expert. With her down to earth style, she equips couples and individuals to tackle the trickiest relationship issues, offering fresh perspectives and empowering frameworks. Marks, this is absolutely the truth. You are on social media. You have your book courses, a podcast, you have your other book, you have a blog, you're the co founder of My love thinks. And you have a master's in human development and family science with a doctorate in counseling psychology. The other book is called love your kids without losing yourself. A mother of two incredible kids, wife of her high school sweetheart and lifelong lover of all things relationship. This book is fantastic. It is called A better share. It has, we're hopping off here, but it even has this, like how, like you talk about the handoff. How can you hand things off? And you have a conversation prompts and scripts of handing off the mental load. Like, these are the steps you take. I mean, Even just this one page is worth its weight in gold. It's page 2 15. Mine is an advanced copy, so it might not be exactly 2:15 when you get it, but it's like, you know, here's how you introduce it. Here's how you keep it from being something that's not defensive. Like, I'm not casting any blame. I'm just trying to explain, you know, this is how my experience is and, and what are some ideas and how can we delegate? This is what does good enough look like? Are there things that we could drop? It is so, so good, Morgan. I'm so glad I read it. It is going to be on our shelf. It is the most valuable marriage resource that we have. It is. I think it's the most valuable resource that is out there today. A better share Dr. Morgan Cutlip thank you for being here.
- [64:48]
Morgan Cutliff
Thank you. Grateful for you. Are you looking for your new favorite podcast that's both entertaining and will challenge you in your walk with Jesus? Hey, we're Mackie Kenz from the for the Girl podcast. Every Tuesday we break down everything that.
- [65:03]
Jenny Urch
We wish someone had told us in.
- [65:05]
Morgan Cutliff
Our 20s, from faith and relationships to wild career transitions. We're getting real about all of our.
- [65:11]
Jenny Urch
Mess ups and the things God has.
- [65:13]
Morgan Cutliff
Taught us along the way. Think of us as your hilarious weekly dose of honest conversation with your Internet besties who've been exactly where you currently are. So come check out for the Girl on Apple, Spotify or wherever you love to listen to podcasts. And make sure to click Follow on our show so that each new episode is dropped right into your personal feed.
- [65:40]
Jenny Urch
What if more important than being right.
- [65:42]
Heather Thompson Day
Is how we handle being wrong? Holding tightly to ideas that can't adapt.
- [65:47]
Jenny Urch
With new information is not a virtue, it's a vice.
- [65:51]
Heather Thompson Day
I'm Heather Thompson Day and I'm inviting.
- [65:53]
Jenny Urch
You to join me over on my podcast what if I'm Wrong? Where I'll be your guide through real life questions.
- [65:59]
Morgan Cutliff
Okay, today we have a submission story and it is wild.
- [66:04]
Heather Thompson Day
Subscribe to what if I'm Wrong?
- [66:05]
Jenny Urch
Available wherever you listen to podcasts.