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The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 465: Kids Thrive in a Simple Environment | Julia Ubbenga, Declutter Your Heart and Your Home
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- [00:01]
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- [01:24]
Jenny Urch
My name is Jenny Urch. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and I have a new friend today, Julia Ovengay. Welcome.
- [01:31]
Julia Ovengay
Thanks so much for having me. It's great to be here.
- [01:33]
Jenny Urch
You talk about decluttering and you have this new book coming out called Declutter your Heart and your How a Minimalist Life Yields Maximum Joy. And I thought this is a really good fit because if you have less things, you might have more time.
- [01:49]
Julia Ovengay
Yes, way more time.
- [01:51]
Jenny Urch
There's studies that talk about how much more time you might get back if you have less sorts of things. So let's just kick it off with your story. Your story is that, well, it starts kind of in childhood. You have this grandma, she thinks the world of you. You're the favorite grandkid, which is a really interesting thing because for the most part, parents don't really like. Parents don't have favorite kids, but I think that grandparents do.
- [02:20]
Julia Ovengay
I think so too. Yeah. Yeah, I was definitely the favorite grandchild. And my grandma loved to shop. And so I would spend time with her and we would stroll the malls, we would shop. And I soon learned that Shopping was fun. It was a way to feel good. It was a way not to feel bad, to kind of COVID up hard feelings. And so I carried this mindset into my 20s and I started making money, I started spending money. Pretty soon I had all this stuff and $40,000 worth of consumer debt. But when I thought about the debt, I felt bad. And when I felt bad, I'd go buy something new because that's what I thought would make me feel good and make me feel happy. So I was caught up in this cycle for a while, really up until the time our second daughter was born. And I was working outside the home as a speech language pathologist at the time. But I always wanted to stay home with our kids. To be a stay at home mom was my dream. And my husband got a promotion at the time and I could stay home. I was so excited. But I had this really idyllic vision of what stay at home mom life would be like. I thought we would be baking cookies, giggling over tea parties, snuggled on the couch reading Little House on the Prairie. So in my mind, it was just going to be great. Well, a couple weeks into the stay at home mom gig, I would not have even called myself a stay at home mom. I would have said a full time stuff. Manager would have been a better title because, Ginny, that is what I did. I was constantly looking for things. I was picking things up, cleaning things, tripping over things that I hadn't picked up yet. I was just exhausted. I was stressed, I was distracted. Like I was there, but I wasn't really there. I couldn't really be present to the people around me. I was just overwhelmed. And so a couple months into living this way, I was diagnosed with postpartum depression. And my faith is something I really leaned into at the time. So I remember this morning where I was up in the nursery, I was feeding our baby and I was talking with God, really pleading with him. I was like, God, this is not what I signed up for. What is really going on here? Something needs to change. And I was reading the Bible and a couple verses From Luke, chapter 12, they jumped off the page of me and they said, your life does not consist of possessions. Be rich in what matters. And so I paused right there and I asked myself, was I rich in what mattered? Was I rich in relationships? Time for a prayer life, time for a hobby that I loved? And no, the answer is absolutely not. I wasn't. So that planted the seed that something in my life in the area of possessions needed to change. But I Didn't know what. I didn't know where to go from there. That same week, I had a therapy appointment. And at the end of the session, just as I was leaving, the therapist said, julia, have you ever heard of minimalism? And I'm like, oh, you mean houses with white walls and next to nothing in them? And she's like, oh, look into it. There's more to it than that. I think you might be interested. And so I was curious. I did a Google search there in the car and realized there's a lot of resources about minimalism. So I started reading books and blogs and listening to podcasts about it. And this idea that I didn't need all this stuff to be happy, and in fact, I'd have so much more happiness with less of it because I'd have more time and energy to focus on who and what mattered. It was a mindset shift that was life changing. And it finally gave me a vision of how to get out from under all this stress and anxiety that I was feeling at the time. So I went all in on minimalism. I started a blog at the time. I called it Rich and what matters based on that Bible verse that spoke to me. And we got rid of 75% of our stuff over the course of the first year. We downsized for a couple years into an apartment home. We got rid of our consumer debt. Then we built an intentionally small new home. And so we've been living as a minimalist family now for six years, and we have five kids, ages 11, 7, 4, 2, and 2 months. So I wrote the book, which I'm so excited about, Declutter your heart and your home. How a minimalist life yields maximum joy just for anyone who is feeling called to live a lighter life with less stuff and more space to focus on who and what matters.
- [06:15]
Jenny Urch
So for the mom who's listening and feels like they are in this never ending cycle of work, when life becomes a series of boxes to check off. And you say decluttering reduces the amount of time spent on housework by 40%. That is so much in the average home. So if people are looking for. They're looking for more time, they're looking to be rich in what matters. So that's why the. That's why the dedication says Baby E. Because every kid's name is. Is an E name. And then you wrote it when you were pregnant.
- [06:45]
Julia Ovengay
Right, Right, I did, yeah. So Baby Evelyn is what we went with. Okay. Yeah.
- [06:50]
Jenny Urch
I love that.
- [06:50]
Julia Ovengay
Yeah.
- [06:51]
Jenny Urch
Okay. Well, these are ages when you usually have a lot of stuff. 11, 7, 4, 2, 2 months. So this is like all of the elementary ages. This is preschooler, this is toddler, this is baby. And you know, there's these, those stores like Bye Bye baby. I don't even know if it still exists, but, like, when you go to register, there's a million things that you could have, should have, feel like you need to have. So let's talk to the parent that's just starting out, because childhood and consumerism these days tend to go hand in hand. Can you just talk about the beginnings? Like, what could someone do at the very beginning if they wanted to sort of start off on a foot that was a little more minimal?
- [07:37]
Julia Ovengay
Yeah, childhood and consumerism do go hand in hand. I think that's the first thing we need to realize to have a real awareness of that, that our society tells us that we can buy our kids a good childhood and that more stuff is going to mean a better life for our kids, a better childhood for our kids. And as far as the very beginning, I, when I had our first baby, remember being in a store like, Bye Bye baby and just filling a cart full of everything I thought I needed. And then you get home and you really don't use very much of it, honestly. I mean, you need a bassinet for the baby, you need a good carrier, diapers. But there's so much stuff that we don't actually use. And so just realizing that and realizing what our society tells us and starting to question that and, you know, believing what we think too, we as parents have agency over what we bring into our home. And so just realizing that, you know, the average kid now gets 70 toys a year. And this is jumping ahead maybe more toward a little older kid, but they get 70 toys a year. And the US now has 3% of the world's kids and 40% of the world's toys. Think about that for a second. That is a fraction of the kids in this world and almost half of the toys in this world. So our culture definitely, definitely is telling us that we need more, but we don't. Kids thrive in a simple environment.
- [09:00]
Jenny Urch
Absolutely. I mean, they thrive with nothing. Take them outside. They don't need any toys. In fact, it's better to not bring toys. And that was something that I had to learn at the beginning. I'm going outside, I'm like, well, I should bring, you know, books and crafts and trains and GI Joes. I mean, all of it. And they're like, no, like, it's better to bring nothing and let the Child bring their imagination to whatever that the elements are. And so you quote like Kim John Payne in your book and he wrote the book Simplicity, Parenting. I mean, quote, fabulous start there. I mean, it's a really great book to read. Susan Lynn talks about the consumerism of childhood and she wrote some amazing books like the Case for Make Believe and she's talking about that too. Like in all of these toys, I just talked to someone, Julia, who was saying, now they're all embedded with AI. So many of them, they have these AI algorithms embedded in the toy and then there's going to be this connection, like an emotional connection. But it's a robot. It's, it's a whole thing. So starting at the beginning. What's tricky though is that you're going to have a shower. You're going to have a baby shower. So what would be some things that you would recommend? Like my mom has always bought clothes that are bigger than 12 months, like so that you know the kid's going to grow. And then, you know, they get so many newborn outfits, they don't even have a chance to wear them all. So she would get like bigger clothes for the kids. What would be your suggestion on Registry? And because people want to celebrate, they're excited you're having this baby. What do you think about that?
- [10:27]
Julia Ovengay
My first thought is buy diapers because that's what you're going to need. Yeah, yeah, but really tell them what you, what you want, what you need instead of having them just buy whatever they want. Yes. People want to give gifts. It's a way that they show love and that's great. But it doesn't have to be stuff. It doesn't have to be more clothes or little light up toys that you're not actually going to need. And they're just going to overstimulate your kid anyway. So ask them exactly for what you need and then just be grateful for whatever it is that they do give you. And then you can choose what you do with that stuff. Once I give it to you, it's in your home, it's yours. So if you want to get rid of it, you can, you know, so gift giving isn't something that makes us feel like we have to keep whatever's given. We just are grateful for the love that it's shown and then we can, we can let go of it. But yeah, just be specific in what you want and realize that you don't, you don't need all that stuff. I think it's worth mentioning too that parents really do need to read the books and really realize that we're just giving our kids back their childhood when we simplify their environments. And there's a study done in Germany that I love that they took all the toys out of a kindergarten classroom and they observed how the kids reacted. How did they respond? How did they play? On the first day, they really didn't know what to do. They were pretty confused in this new environment. But by the second day, they were lost in their own imaginative world. They were just playing more creatively and more independently, more deeply with the tables, with the chairs, with whatever was there in the environment. And they did conclude that kids thrive in this simplified environment. And the same goes for our home. We don't need to overwhelm them with stuff.
- [12:07]
Jenny Urch
Isn't that interesting? I was talking to this man, David Thomas, who is a counselor in Nashville, and he works with this lady named Cissy Goff, and they have their own podcast. And he said, it's just surprising that there's. You have to get a certification for anything. Like, you have to get a. You have to go to classes to get a driver's license. If you're going to cut someone's hair, you have to have all this certification. He's like, but, you know, you have a baby, and then that's it, you know? He was like, it would be so great if there were just a couple foundational elements that went into parent training. So a book like simplicity parenting, a book like yours, declutter your heart and your home, would be a great thing to read on the onset so that you can make some of those decisions ahead of time or at least know what to do when these different situations arrive. Okay. One of the things you talk about is freedom. I don't know if I would have necessarily associated minimalism with freedom, but you really experienced a lot of freedom. You were able to get out of credit card debt. And that's a lot of freedom, for sure. Can you talk about the freedom piece that people might not associate with the minimalist lifestyle?
- [13:13]
Julia Ovengay
I think there's a lot of misconceptions, first of all, about what minimalism even is like. I thought it was somebody who only owned 100 things at first. Maybe they only wear black. Maybe they have kids because they don't want their house to be messed up. And it's not that at all. It's really just a tool to live your life with intention. And so it's about letting go of the things that don't matter in your life to make space for the Things in your life that do matter, and that can be your possessions, but it can also be your calendar commitments, it can be your thought patterns. And so the freedom that I found in minimalism was that I started discerning everything that was in my home, in my mind and my heart. Like, I started really questioning and looking at my choices in a way that I hadn't before. And I think that's where the freedom came. When I finally aligned my life with my values and life began to feel authentic. And that's there for everyone. In the book. We'll show you how to do that. And I'm just so excited that that's available.
- [14:08]
Jenny Urch
So can you talk about. I mean, getting out of $40,000 of consumer credit card debt is a really, really big deal. You wrote the average debt for indebted households is more than $16,000 each year. The U.S. in the U.S. more money is spent on shoes, jewelry, and watches than on higher education. Life with no consumer debt seemed like a pipe dream, but other people were doing it. They were. They would take a period where they would stop purchasing things. What was that period of time like for you?
- [14:34]
Julia Ovengay
Well, it was a big challenge because I was very set in purchasing things. That was the way I was raised. And that's what I thought would bring me happiness. And I realized I needed some tools to stop the spending cycle. Pausing before purchasing was one that I used. I really love the idea of having kind of a guideline to it. So for every $50 that something costs, wait 24 hours before purchasing it. So it's a hundred dollars, then you're going to wait 48 hours. Yeah. So just pausing and asking questions, too, like, who am I buying this for? Is it because I'm dealing with comparison still? In my heart it was. What I found was, after a while, decluttering could give you a dopamine boost, just like buying something new could. And so you can get caught in this cycle of decluttering and then buying it all back. And if you're still dealing with things like comparison in your heart and you see what your neighbors have, or you see things online, you're just going to think you need more stuff again. So you. I really had to get at the root of the problem, and I used gratitude to help overcome comparison. If I was in my home and maybe in my kitchen and I was scrolling and I saw this beautiful kitchen, and then I thought automatically that I needed something different in my kitchen, it wasn't good enough anymore, then I would think, no, I am thankful that I have a roof over my home, that I have a family that loves me, that I have food in my fridge and just that really shifted my mindset for me and helped me stop spending.
- [16:02]
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- [19:54]
Jenny Urch
You can tell in this book declutter your heart and your home that you've done a lot of reading because you bring in all of these other different people's books and articles and things that you've heard them say. So I think that's really cool. It's like you did all the work and then here's all the different, really interesting pieces brought together along with your own story. One of the things you talked about was a book called the the Year of Less where someone didn't buy anything but consumables for 12 months. For 12 months. It's not the end of the world. It's one year and they were able to get out of $30,000 of consumer debt.
- [20:29]
Julia Ovengay
Yeah, the Year of Less. That's a great, great book. And really the idea is that when you realize that you need so much less than you think you do to be happy, then you're not going to spend as much money on stuff and a whole lifestyle just shift. And there's also people who do low buy years where it's not just so black and white that you can't buy anything, but maybe you set a goal like okay, this month I'm only going to buy two or three new things and that's what you do the whole year. So yeah, there's some wiggle room with it, but it is A good way to get out of debt.
- [20:59]
Jenny Urch
I felt like it was really cool to be exposed to all of these different ideas in your book, Julia. Like I said, oh, that's an interesting idea. Like, you know, if you didn't do it for 12 months, what if you did it for 12 weeks? Or what if you did it for 12 days? I mean, any. Anyone can do something for just a short period of time. And the fact that that person was able to dig herself out of $30,000 of consumer debt by living that way, like she only was getting groceries and toiletries and gas for a year, I think it would make you realize too how cared for you are. Like, well, I had enough clothes or I had enough shoes or, you know, I had enough jewelry or whatever the situation is. I had a purse and I was just fine. So I loved the exposure to all of these different ideas in your book. One of the things that you wrote was minimalism taught me if I wanted to live my rich life, I also had to be able to say, this is not part of my rich life. So could you give an example of that? Like, what's something that you would realize, like, that's not a part of my rich life?
- [21:54]
Julia Ovengay
Yeah, that was when I was talking about the money chapter where I realized that I couldn't have it all. I couldn't spend on everything. So I had to be really intentional. I had to be really intentional about what I spent my money on. So I realized things mattered more to me, like our kids education than maybe having a fancy car. So I would spend extravagantly on our kids education, but cut costs ruthlessly on our car or spend extravagantly on tipping and cut costs ruthlessly on our home because it's a smaller home. So it was really about being really choosy. I couldn't have it all, but I could still spend money. But I wanted to put it in the place that really mattered to me and then find ways that I could really cut costs in other areas of our lives.
- [22:39]
Jenny Urch
So the foundational piece is your values. That's the foundational piece. And you had talked about adventure. There was a couple things that you talked about. It was three things. Do you know what they are? I gotta find. Oh, I found it. What do I really want? Family, adventure, and having a positive impact on the world. Was it hard to narrow down to that?
- [22:59]
Julia Ovengay
It took a little while. One tool I really loved that I used was out of a book called slow by Brooke McAllery. It was called a three sentence eulogy. And what you do is you look toward the end of your life and you ask yourself, what would I want to be remembered for? And then you only have three sentences to write those things down. And what you find is that stuff. Social media, statistics, all those things that we spend a lot of time and energy on aren't the things that you want to be remembered for in your eulogy. It's your relationships, your adventure, your maybe personality or your faith. And so that really hit home for me. I was like, wow, my life is not aligning with the things that I want to be remembered for, the things that matter to me. And so then I was really motivated by that to make shifts so that it did.
- [23:48]
Jenny Urch
So then you're able to answer the question, is this part of my rich life or not? I loved the sentence that said, no one is going to stand up at your funeral and say, she had a really expensive couch and great shoes. That's so good. Don't make life about stuff. And then you had this wonderful quote by William Irvine that said, there is danger that you will mis. Live. I've never heard anybody use that word. That despite all your activity, despite all the pleasant diversions you might have enjoyed while alive, you will end up living a bad life. You really have read a whole lot about this. Was it because you. You needed, like, the support? And, I mean, I could imagine it's a huge life shift, right? Like, you're. You grew up with your grandma buying you all these things, and you're making this very significant life shift. I mean, it seems like you read it. Must have read a stack of books about it.
- [24:42]
Julia Ovengay
I really did, and I continually did. And that's why I blogged about it, too, because I needed some accountability. I needed this constant countercultural stream in my ear that there's a different way to live, and this different way is for you, because I really felt called to it. But I needed the information from the books. I needed new insights to keep me motivated and to be blogging about it, and then to have a community, really, that I created that could support me, too, and then I could give back to them. And it's been, yeah, a lot of fun. But the books were really helpful. And I do think that this book really is, Jenny, like a reference book for people who want to live with less. Because there are so many different things that I've pulled into the book.
- [25:25]
Jenny Urch
That's sort of. I mean, my story is similar. I mean, we're trying to live counterculture, too. I'm like, we're trying to go outside. Nope. Nobody goes Outside. You know, the average kid's outside for four to seven minutes and they're on screens for four to seven hours. And so in order to keep that type of a lifestyle, which I believe is really beneficial. Just like how minimalism. Same thing. It's like, I think you have to constantly be feeding yourself encouragement and reminders and inspiration to stick with what you want to stick with. So I loved reading all of these different stories and different people's ideas that you wove through your book. What about the just in case? So I want people to know that the book goes through your story and then you weave in all of these different things that you've read, different ideas, but then you also actually go through. Here's how to do it is like a step by step, this room, that part of your house, because you've done it. So you walk people through the logistics of it. And one of the things that I think a lot of us would think is, well, what if I need that? And isn't it wasteful if I get rid of it?
- [26:30]
Julia Ovengay
Yeah. The book is divided into three sections that actually parallel a journey through an outer and an inner home. So the first is laying the foundation and decluttering the soul. And then the second, as you journey up through the home, is decluttering the main floor and decluttering the heart. An example chapter here would be decluttering your wardrobe and letting go of comparison. Then you continue up journeying through the home to decluttering the upstairs and the mind. And here you would find something like decluttering sentimental items and letting go of fear. And the letting go of fear chapter does address just in case items. That's a big reason that we hold on to things just in case. And my favorite tool for letting go of things that we hold onto just in case is finishing the sentence. So often we think we need things. I'm going to hold onto this just in case. But we don't actually say out loud, rationalize through the reason that we're holding onto it. So say you have eight vases and you finish the sentence. I'm going to hold onto this vase just in case one of them breaks. Have I ever broken a vase before? No. Okay. I can let go of, you know, five and keep. So I think when we actually finish the sentence, that's a really powerful tool to add some reasoning to our decision and realize that we can let go.
- [27:44]
Jenny Urch
What's the 2020 rule?
- [27:47]
Julia Ovengay
2020 rule. Oh, I like that rule. That's when you would have an item and you could Say, can I buy this again in 20 minutes? And is it less than $20? And if you answer yes to both of them, you can let it go. And this is by the minimalists. This isn't a rule that I came up with, but it's a powerful one. Because a lot of times those type of things that you can get conveniently, you don't need to buy them back. Like maybe this fuchsia lipstick that I wore once to my brother's wedding, and I'm not gonna wear it again. You know, $20, 20 minutes. Yeah, I could do that. But you let it go, and you don't need it again, and it's just cluttering up your space.
- [28:25]
Jenny Urch
I like the idea of the capsule wardrobe. I've thought about this at different times. Like when we have. I loved your idea of pretend like you're going on a vacation, because we've done that before. It's like, well, every kid has five outfits, and you've got laundry at the place that you're staying, and you just wash it, and then that's kind of all you need. And if someone gets a stain on one shirt, then you replace that one shirt, and that's what you've got. So can you talk about the power of a capsule wardrobe, even, like, for kids? I mean, you could have that. Even for kids that are playing outside and getting muddy. I mean, it would make your life really easy if you're just like, this is what you put on, and out we go. Because I know sometimes people have a hard time even getting out the door. There's a lot of decisions that they're making. Why would the capsule wardrobe be helpful?
- [29:06]
Julia Ovengay
Yeah, the capsule wardrobe is wonderful, especially for kids. And that's how I decluttered our kids clothes. I did something called the suitcase experiment, where we were in Seattle over Thanksgiving, and I just had this aha moment where I'm like, this is all they need. I'm doing laundry a few times. They have these five outfits. They are thriving. They are fine. So we got home, and I just took everything out of the closet, just packed for what I would consider like a vacation, where we live here in Kansas City. Just what do they need? And then whatever was in that suitcase that I packed, that's what went back in the closet. And everything else I put into big black bags, and I put them down in storage. And I didn't get rid of everything right away, but I gave kids a few months to ask for things back. They asked for maybe one thing. And so we then just had that limited amount of clothes and the laundry load got so much lighter. My daughter, who's 5 at the time, actually started helping with laundry independently because the amount of laundry matched her ability level then. And I'm like, I am on to something. So, yes, not only will it help you get outside faster because you have fewer decisions, you just. You reduce your decisions. It's like, this is what I wear, this is what I'm going to take, put on, and I'm gonna go. And you save time that way too. So it's just simplified things so much for us. It's been wonderful.
- [30:23]
Jenny Urch
Talk about as an adult, wearing the same thing more than once, like two days in a row or two times in a week.
- [30:30]
Julia Ovengay
You can totally do it. You can totally do it. Most people are thinking about themselves, actually, so they might notice from a second that you have the same thing on. And that's all. So really, we only wear 20% of our clothes. Most people, 80% hangs in our closets. So what would it be like if we just had that 20%? What I found too, is that clothing can trigger feelings. Like, in my own wardrobe, if I see things that maybe that pair of jeans that I wish I would have fit in or that I hope to fit in someday, and then that's going to trigger guilt. I'm like, I don't need to see that every day. I'm just, you know, get rid of it. Just have the clothes that support who you are now and simplify them. You can wear your favorite things and you're gonna feel better when you do.
- [31:17]
Jenny Urch
It's an interesting thing too, when we think about repeating clothes. To me, it stems back to, like middle school where, you know, it was like this strata of popular kids all had. I mean, some kids would never wear the same thing in a whole school year. I remember people talking about that and I was like, I've got two pairs of pants, you know, so it sort of starts back like you were talking about. Things start in childhood. But what's interesting is, is when you become an adult, how you might view somebody who wears the same thing. So I have a dear friend and we went to church together and we were in the band, like, did the church band thing together. And she had this, like, really pretty, like, lacy long sleeve, sort of like undershirt. And she wore it. I mean, I feel like she wore every week under something. And the response is not like one of judgment. It's more like, wow, she's really secure. That's what it made me think, you know, like, oh, she doesn't care. Like, she can just wear that thing. And I mean, she's fine in herself and she likes that. So it's not even necessarily that people will be like, well, that person has no fashion sense. Or they might look at you like you're cooler. Mm.
- [32:25]
Julia Ovengay
Yeah. And I think in other countries, this is probably more. More common. I feel like in other countries, people have more higher quality. Like maybe France, I've heard they have these higher quality outfits, and this is what they wear, and it's limited and, you know, that's accepted. So in our culture, yes. Even back in middle school, I remember I used to write out every outfit combination that I wore so I wouldn't wear the same thing twice in a month. And wow. So much effort that I put into that. And it did start there. And so now, yes. It's so freeing. Again, like we talked about free freedom. It's so freeing just to be able to wear what you love and to realize you know what you like, and that is okay. And it's. You don't really care what the other people think.
- [33:08]
Jenny Urch
Yeah. And what you feel good in. You wrote no one cares if you wear the same thing twice in a week or even on consecutive days. Research shows that after each interaction, people spend only 10 seconds thinking about you. They're usually thinking about themselves. So. And you're talking about decision fatigue. Every decision we make, you know, you're starting to, like, deplete your ability to make decisions. And so what you said was, have a gold standard outfit. Can you talk about that?
- [33:35]
Julia Ovengay
Yeah. This is one of the first things I would say if you're going to declutter your closet, figure out what your gold standard outfit is. What is it that your very favorite. What do you absolutely love to wear? And then hang that up and run all your other outfits by that gold standard. Do you love this outfit as much as you love that one? And that is how you create a wardrobe that has a closet full of only things you love, love to wear.
- [34:00]
Jenny Urch
Yeah. And we'll make things so much easier. For getting out of the house, for going to do what you want to do, for being rich. In what matters.
- [34:09]
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Julia Ovengay
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- [36:42]
Jenny Urch
I wanted to say this too and talking about just the Earth, you say by extending the life. So that, like our sort of.
- [36:49]
Julia Ovengay
Our.
- [36:49]
Jenny Urch
What do they call that? Our. Our imprint, Our footprint. Yeah, our. Like our ecological. It's called something. And I should know, right? You're like, you know, what we do impacts the Earth. So by extending the life of clothing an additional nine months, which isn't even all that long, the average consumer could reduce their carbon waste and water footprint by 20 to 30% each. Making a pair of jeans uses the same amount of water as flushing your toilet for three years. These are good things to know about, like, the fast fashion type things. And then you had this idea of this Carver's project, like we talked about before, Julia, where you're like, bringing in all of these different ideas from different books you've read, where you wear 33 items for three months, which includes your clothing and your accessories and your jewelry and your shoes and your outerwear now your underwear. And you give some really, really good examples of that, like what that might look like. So really fantastic ideas. I mean, it's all very practical. The whole book is really practical. But wardrobe is one where, you know, you. If you're running out the door and you. You've got 45 minutes and you want to run to the park, like, if it's easy to grab, then I feel like it's easier to get out and go. So I thought that that was really practical. A calendar clutter. I love that you did that. I love that you went in these other directions with it, like, not just the physical items. You talk about calendar clutter. You talk about technology. So Lisa Terkerst and Greg. I don't have to say McGowan. McGowan. Sorry, Greg. We don't know. But they talk about, like, if it's not an emphatic yes, it's an emphatic no.
- [38:26]
Julia Ovengay
Yeah. Minimalism helped me realize that I was saying yes to a lot of things that didn't really align with my life, with my values. And when we say yes to something, we're saying no to something else. When we say yes to another project. Helping out at school, their kids, school, are saying no, maybe to more time with them at home. And so I really realized that it wasn't always best to say yes and that if it wasn't a hundred percent yes, that it was best to say no because you were then saying yes to something else that mattered more.
- [38:59]
Jenny Urch
And especially when things are down the road. I think. I think Greta Eskridge talks about this, where she says, you put yourself in the position four months down the road, are you really going to want to do that thing? And I've started doing that because you're like, well, it doesn't matter. It's like your future self, you don't really know. But then you're like, well, if it was today, like, I wouldn't want to do that. So then you're clearing your calendar of clutter so that you can do the things you really want to do. You also talk about technology, you talk about engaging in high quality leisure, but you also went through just a bunch of different hacks that you're doing. Like the rubber band so you don't scroll and grayscale. Can you talk about that?
- [39:36]
Julia Ovengay
Yeah, I love the rubber band and grayscale. Yeah. There's a study that they forget who did it, but they did looked at college kids and saw that they spent 40 minutes less on screens when they turn their phones on grayscale. So that's something that I tried out. And it really does work when it's not just so stimulating with the bright colors. The rubber band, I put that around my phone so that when I started to unintentionally scroll, I had that tactile cue to stop me. And that helped out a lot too. What I found as I decluttered my things and finished decluttering our home was that if I was still tethered to my phone, then I wasn't truly free. Because if I was filling up that newfound time with unintentional scrolling, I wasn't focused on what matters. I wasn't focused on the people in my home and building the relationships with them. And, you know, even Ginny, as a Christian. I talked to one of my mentors about this and they said, look at the back of your iPhone. What is the symbol on it? And it was an apple with a bite out of it. And they said, is there any better temptation for Christian or any better. Is there any better symbol for a Christian to represent temptation? And I was like, wow. Like, once my eyes were open to that, I was like, that is incredible. Like our phones are so tempting and they are made to draw us in like that. So I started keeping my mornings quiet. I started putting my phone without putting my phone not within arm's reach, put it in a different room, put it to bed at night, and then in the morning I could focus on what I matter, what I thought mattered, not what the phone said was important. I made myself less available. I challenged this idea that I needed to be on call all the time. Our society tells us we do, and I didn't. And then just spending time in silence helped me to kind of help balance my brain more that I realized I didn't need to always be grabbing my phone and checking things because as I, as I grew my blog and as I grew my Instagram, I did feel more of a hold to check and see what I got right. How many blog hits, how many Instagram likes that type of stuff. So I think it's important for us to have some tools to counter that and practice more of a digital minimalism mindset. And that can help us out a lot.
- [41:51]
Jenny Urch
Yeah, I liked you talked about that. You were like, well, I'll text back in this certain period of time. I read this book by Nir Eyal and he sort of said similar things like anything that you send out, you're going to get responses to. So like don't send so much stuff out. That's basically what he was saying. Or like, you know, if you text all day, you're going to get all day text responses back or if you email all day. So his whole thing was similar to what you're saying is like bound it in, just do it for a particular time period and then put it away. And people, you know, like, you don't have to be on call. I liked when you feel tempted to grab your phone. Replace this twitch with some form of connection. Life is full of moments that only happen once in real time. Moments we miss if our eyes are downward. So I just think that's so cool, Julia, that you went through the minimalism with your possessions, but you also went through it with your time and what kind of a life that you really want to have as well. So I thought that was really powerful. Can you talk to us about the happy box?
- [42:51]
Julia Ovengay
Oh, I love the happy box. I'm glad you brought that up. So what I am still finding and what I what I found is that our family has one nervous system. And if I am upregulated, overstimulated, my kids behavior changes. It's like they can feel it. It's like we're connected. And gosh, this is one of the reasons I think it's so important for moms to simplify their home environments too because we're finding that clutter can cause stress for moms, that it can cause higher cortisol levels. And when our cortisol levels are high and we're stressed, our nervous system is more in that fight or flight mode that affects everyone around us. And so what I realized is I needed some type of a tool to help me really regulate my nervous system, to find that I could use something when I got triggered and put some space in between my response and that feeling. And so the happy box is a tool that I came up with that has different things that stimulate. Stimulate your senses, and so they really do calm your nervous system. So like essential oils or putting a cold rock on your neck here to stimulate the vagus nerve and a relaxation response. Coloring can help tasting something like a piece of candy. So I couldn't always grab this happy box in moments of, you know, stress, but I did find, too, that I could gargle, I could sing. Deep breathing is pretty commonly known to help relax, but I could do different things. And so I realized that I didn't have to be reactive all the time. And this is how I really combated reactivity in my life. And I would say I've become a much calmer person for having these type of tools. And then our kids, too. I've made happy boxes for them, and I'm teaching them how to. Yeah. How to work through their emotions to realize, okay, I'm feeling something. And that is okay. Whatever we're feeling is good. It's valid. So feel that feeling. And then let's get our brains out of that lower part of our brain and up to the higher part, more of our frontal lobe, our rational, thinking brain. And we can do that with these tools in the happy box.
- [44:58]
Jenny Urch
What are some things that you put in the kids happy box?
- [45:01]
Julia Ovengay
I put empty essential oils because they still have a smell to them. I put little pieces of candy, scented markers that they can draw with and smell at the same time. Fidget toys are good. Any of those, like, squishy things that they can feel? Yeah, Scented lotion, those type of things.
- [45:22]
Jenny Urch
Now, what a great idea. You wrote lower cortisol levels were more likely in moms who had higher restorative home scores, which. I like that phrase, restorative home scores because you do hear about that, that the. And maybe it's more for women, that the state of your home. I just. I mean, we're not minimalisms. You're minimalists. I know. Whatever. I don't know. I like my. This room is a mess. And so someday, you know, I'm like, I totally get all the things. And then here and there, you know, I make little strides and I. I believe in it. I just haven't done it. And so for me, mostly I'm just, like, ignoring. I'm trying my best to, like, ignore it. But it does bug me. I mean, and I have friends that are like, it bugs me so much that I can't deal. And so I, like, I have to make the change. But there are studies that have been done that show there's some sort of a relationship between, like, how you feel inside and how clutter free your home is. Mm.
- [46:22]
Julia Ovengay
Yeah. There's a study out of ucla, it's the one that you're, you're referencing here, that they looked at 32 Los Angeles houses for four years, and then they measured the level of cortisol in the, the mom's saliva. And they also looked at how much clutter was in the home. And so what they found was that the moms who described their home as messy or chaotic had those higher levels of cortisol. They stayed high throughout the day, which led to poor sleep, led to anxiety, led to stress. And then those who had the restorative home scores, who said their home felt calm had lower cortisol. There's also a study out of Yale that shows that our brains expend so much energy trying to ignore the visual stimuli in our home, so even when we're not constantly thinking about it, our brains are still trying to block it out. And that can make us more tired, it can make us more distracted. But I also think that some people do just have a higher threshold for clutter than, than others, but they are starting to research it because we're living in a time now, Ginny, that is really unprecedented. Like, we've never had a society that has had as much stuff, as much possessions as ours does. And the average home has over 300,000 things in it. And so it's just worth knowing and like, tapping into how do I feel in my home and how is this home environment affecting my life, the lives of others? And they're starting to look at that in research too.
- [47:46]
Jenny Urch
Yeah, I'm, I'm ignoring it. But like, like you're saying you, you don't really know, though, what's going on on the inside of you, so, you know you're ignoring it. But it also could be affecting your health to a degree or just the way that you feel, or those cortisol levels that most people wouldn't be measuring themselves. It happens in a study. So the state of our home reflects the state of our soul. So it's just an important thing to know. I was pretty blown away by the numbers, because if you talk about 300,000 items and then you talked about how some people, some modern day minimalists, only own 100 things. So, like, that span of 100 to 300,000 is so big, and it just makes you realize, like, well, maybe I could do 200,000. You know, like, you can march in that direction.
- [48:36]
Julia Ovengay
Yeah. And I don't think we need to get caught on the numbers because, you know, it's not about the numbers of our stuff, how many things we own. But I think it is worth experimenting with less because in this culture, so many of us don't know what it feels like to have too little. We know what it feels like to have too much. And so I think the way you find what enough is for you is by experimenting on the side of too little and then maybe adding a little bit back in. For me, that's how I figured out how much enough was. Like, I realized I needed more spoons than what I had left. I had to add more. More spoons back in. So just experimental with less. Experiment with it. See how you feel in your home when you. When you do change your environment. You don't have to get rid of everything right away. You can put it in your basement for a few months and just. Just see if you feel better. And if you do, then you're probably onto something. It's probably going to help you out quite a bit.
- [49:26]
Jenny Urch
And spoons are the 2020 rule. You can get spoons for less than $20.
- [49:30]
Julia Ovengay
That's right.
- [49:31]
Jenny Urch
Probably in about 20 minutes, depending on if you live close to a store. So, yeah, that would be an example. I love that example, actually. Spoons and what it means is you're feeding, you know, kids are eating and they're having friends over, so you need more spoons. I don't know. People are having ice cream Sundays after dinner or whatever. So that's a good thing to have more of because these are all the things that we're doing together. We're eating together and enjoying each other's company.
- [49:53]
Julia Ovengay
Yes.
- [49:54]
Jenny Urch
You started off this book, and the book is called declutter your heart and your home by talking about parenting from a state of overwhelm. And you say parenting from a state of overwhelm has been normalized and even become expected. And I think that a lot of moms and dads and just people in general will relate with living from a state of overwhelm. Do you feel like this shift to minimalism? I mean, you can't always 100% fix everything, but, like, did it mostly fix that?
- [50:24]
Julia Ovengay
Yeah, for me, it really, really did. I am a completely different person than I was six years ago. I Mean, you didn't know me six years ago, but I was not as calm, I was not as intentional. And it's just this feeling in your home. It's not about having it tidy all the time. Minimalism is not about an always tidy home. It's about an easily tidied home. It's about a home that when you look around and you see piles, you're like, oh, I can get to that in five minutes. Later, when I have time, I'm gonna go outside, gonna play with my kids now. And so it's not about the state of your home, but it is about having the upper hand on your home. Like, not letting your home control you. And for moms who are home a lot, when we spend, most of. A lot of us spend a lot of our time in our homes, it's really important to have a home that supports us. And for me, that this has helped my feelings of overwhelm a lot. Sure, I still have moments if I'm tired, but usually, usually I need to step outside and go for a walk, honestly, and then that can lower it down and then I'll come back in and feel. Feel great. So, yes, it's helped. Helped out a ton for me.
- [51:24]
Jenny Urch
What's cool, Julia, is that, like, this is a period of time where you added a lot more kids to your family. So you have another baby now. Like, you were talking about how you hit rock bottom five years ago. And you know, you're in the nursery and you're, you're in the recliner and you're with, you're feeding your baby, but, like, that's a different baby than baby E that just arrived and there was maybe another baby in between, or possibly two. So, I mean, really, you've been able to continue with this and also make a shift while having young kids, which I also think is really inspiring. You had had this one statement. Walmart became a happy place for.
- [52:02]
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For.
- [52:03]
Jenny Urch
I don't know if you say Eva or Ava.
- [52:05]
Julia Ovengay
Ava.
- [52:07]
Jenny Urch
Walmart became a happy place for Ava and me. And I just thought, like, you're able to break a generational cycle there then, because that's how it was with your grandma. The mall was a happy place for your grandma and you. And then, you know, it's just sort of working its way down. And I think that we can make all sorts of other things be happy places. We can make our home be a happy place, we can make the park be a happy place. All of these places that aren't involved with consumerism. And that really is Powerful for our kids and for our grandkids and for that generational impact moving forward. So, Julia, what an honor. I really, really like this book, Declutter your heart in your home. How a minimalist life yields maximum joy. You also have your Rich in what matters community. How can people connect with that?
- [52:49]
Julia Ovengay
You can find me on my blog, which is Rich in what matters dot com. And then I'm on Instagram at Rich and what matters?
- [52:56]
Jenny Urch
What kind of things are people talking about there?
- [52:59]
Julia Ovengay
It's a lot of talk about decluttering kids stuff, actually.
- [53:03]
Jenny Urch
Yeah. Yeah.
- [53:04]
Julia Ovengay
The best responses I get and all the questions I get are, I'm overwhelmed with kids stuff. Where do I start? What do I do?
- [53:10]
Jenny Urch
And I think there's never a more important time, especially since these toys are having these AI algorithms. It's a really good time to, like, not be getting 70 toys every year for your kids because I think that there's, like, you know, some long term ramifications of that type of stuff. So if there were ever a time to start to make a shift back toward less toys, toward less stuff, you know, read that simplicity parenting book. Like you said, parents need to read the books, and it will really give you a good foundation to go off of. Julia, this has been such an honor. We always end our show with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside?
- [53:48]
Julia Ovengay
Oh, let's see. Playing softball. I played so much softball as a kid. I played actually at the D1 level in college. So that was a huge part of my life.
- [53:58]
Jenny Urch
Yeah.
- [53:58]
Julia Ovengay
Yeah. As a pitcher. And so when I'm outside now and I smell freshly cut grass, it reminds me of a ball field. And I feel so happy. Wow.
- [54:08]
Jenny Urch
What age did you start?
- [54:10]
Julia Ovengay
I started in fifth grade.
- [54:13]
Jenny Urch
Oh, that's really cool. So you didn't have to start when you were three. You started at the end of elementary school. What school did you play for?
- [54:19]
Julia Ovengay
I played for Drake University in Des Moines.
- [54:22]
Jenny Urch
Wow. What an experience. I'm so bad at sports. That's really, really cool. Wow. Oh, that's amazing. And I love that people give all sorts of different answers, Julia. Like, you know, someone was like, when I walked home from school and the dust would kick up, you know, and then. And then some people say sports, and I. And I just love that there's the range there of all of those different options of what's meaningful to a kid. And this is a journey of finding what their life is like and what. What makes them feel rich in their life. And there's a lot of options. So Julia, I really appreciate this. Huge congrats on your new book. I think it's going to be so helpful for those who are dealing with overwhelm, who are dealing with credit card debt, who are dealing with high stress, and so many answers to be found in what you wrote. Thank you for being here.
- [55:09]
Julia Ovengay
Yeah, thanks so much for having me on, Ginny. It was a fun conversation.
- [55:17]
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Jenny Urch
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Jenny Urch
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Jenny Urch
Let's be real. Talking about intimacy can be awkward, even with your spouse. But it doesn't have to be. We are Alana, Kyle and Tira, hosts of the Kingdom Sexuality Podcast and we're all about keeping it real and helping you add some spice and deeper connection into your marriage. Specifically, when it comes to what happens in the bedroom, we don't shy away.
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Julia Ovengay
From the tough conversations that often get missed in Christian circles. With us, you'll get laughs, tips, fresh ideas and challenges to strengthen your relationship and bring it to the next level.
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Jenny Urch
Because, let's face it, navigating intimacy as a Christian can be confusing and finding safe, wholesome resources can be tough. So subscribe now on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts and join us each week on the Kingdom Sexuality Podcast.