← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 475: Does the Damage From My Past Put a Lid On My Future? | Lisa Harper, A Jesus-Shaped Life
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- [00:01]
Lisa Harper
If you're a Christian, imagine what life would be like if you didn't have access to or had never even seen a Bible in your own language. For many people around the world, that is their reality. CREW has missionaries in almost every country and they're seeing people's lives changed. Thousands of men, women and children are coming to faith, but simply don't have access to a Bible of their own. In parts of Africa, CREW missionaries have to share one Bible between several people. In Europe, teens are asking for more Bibles than we can provide. In enclosed nations, this good news is spreading at an astonishing rate, but they need more physical Bibles to keep up with the growth.
- [00:37]
Jenny Urich
People are searching for truth and finding.
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Lisa Harper
Answers in God's word. That's why I love partnering with Crew. With just $24 a month, you can give three people the gift of God's word every month.
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Jenny Urich
And as a thank you, crew will.
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Lisa Harper
Provide 12 meals to those in need.
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Jenny Urich
And you'll receive a free copy of.
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Lisa Harper
My book until the street lights come on. To give, text our H o u.
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Jenny Urich
R to 71326 or visit give crew.org our h o u r that's hour to 71326 message and data rates may.
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Lisa Harper
Apply US addresses only. Your monthly gift can truly make a massive impact.
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Jenny Urich
Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Urich and you're never going to believe it. The one and only Lisa. Well, there's probably more than one, but the one and only to me, Lisa Harper is here. Welcome, Lisa.
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Lisa Harper
Oh, I'm so tickled to be here. I've heard about you, senior fruit all over the place. So to get, to get to be on the same. Our big heads on the same computer screen is quite exciting.
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Jenny Urich
My mom always told me I had a big head.
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Lisa Harper
I read you actually have a darling head. I actually have a very big head. And I have to tell people when we're like taking pictures, I'm like, I'm really not saying this in a self evacing way. I've come to peace with, with it. But our picture is going to look like a watermelon and a pea because I have a massive noggin and so unless you let me stand behind you, it's going to look really, really unbalanced and people are like, oh no, no. And then you see them look at their phone and go, oh wow, she wasn't even. She's got a big old noggin.
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Jenny Urich
So I love that, that visual. A watermelon and a piece. Same. So basically we should just travel everywhere together. And then our heads look like they're normal size.
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Lisa Harper
So balanced. My mom was so sweet. My mom like, honey, that's because God designed your head to wear big hair. Because I'm Southern, she's like, or God just gave you a big brain. And so my mom was real sweet about it. I kind of half believed her that it wasn't. That it was more positive than negative then. Mind you, when I try to wear cowboy hats because, you know, I do live in Nashville, it's quite disconcerting for the passersby because those are some big old hats.
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Jenny Urich
This is a great kickoff to this conversation which has nothing to do with the size of our heads but everything to do with a wonderful new book that you have coming out May 6th called a Jesus Shaped Life. I learned so much from it. How Diving Deeper Into Theology Can Transform Us in Our World with the Radical Kindness of God. A wonderful book. Let's kick it off about you, though, before we dive into the book. You have three dogs and one of them you got in a Buc ee's parking lot. Yes.
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Lisa Harper
And of course, his name is Bucky. Well, I was with Jenny. I'll tell you the true story. I was with some women who are less than excited about going to BUC EE's.
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Jenny Urich
It's one of our favorite places on earth.
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Lisa Harper
I know.
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Jenny Urich
I buy every gift.
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Lisa Harper
How can you not like Buc EE's? It's like Walmart and a gas station. Got hooked up on eharmony and got married and had a baby. This is extraordinary. But they were, you know, one of them said, this is all that's wrong with America. And I was like, oh, police. This is. Oh, yeah.
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Jenny Urich
I would say opposite. I feel like it's everything that's right. I'm like, they're playing Ann Wilson on the radio that you can buy a shirt that has Bible verses on it, but Bucky's Band Aids. And they're yelling brisket on the board.
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Lisa Harper
Get like, jalapeno beef jerky. And their bathrooms are perfectly pristine. I let, like, I plan to just go for gas. And then an hour later, I've. People watched and piddled, but I still walk out of there smiling. Well, anyway, we were to buc EE's with some. Some less than excited friends and I was getting gas. And you know how there's like 45,000 pumps and I just saw this Suburban with these darling kids backed up the pumps and they look like homeschool kids. You know, I'm a pseudo homeschooler and, you know, you just go, they're respectful. They, like, have this sign and everything on the sign is spelled correctly. And I thought, I bet these are our Jesus shaped homeschool kids. And I just want to go over and encourage them for being so entrepreneurial because they look, they're, you know, like adolescent, maybe 10, 11, 12. So I walk over to the back of their suburban. I see their dad in the suburban, and they are the kindest young men. And we get to talking and sure enough, I find out they love God, they're homeschooled. I'm like, oh, we have all this stuff in common. And I love dogs. And one of the boys goes, would you like to hold one? And just plops this goldendoodle in my arms. Or so the sign says. Could have been a wolf with worms, but he plops this dog into my arms. Well, one of the girls who wasn't excited about Bucky's walked up and looked at me and went, oh, she was just mortified. And she went, you will not buy a dog in a gas station parking lot. And I try to be Jesus shaped, but sometimes there's a little bit of spice in me. And I said, watch me. And I went and got my wallet because I thought I'd encourage these little pumpkins. And I thought, two dogs, three dogs, five dogs. I mean, dogs are awesome. And then Missy walked up my little girl, and she held him and she goes, oh, mom, I already love him and he already loves me. So, I mean, I would have had to be Cruella de Vil to not buy the dog. And we named him Bucky. And of course, and my vet ended up, because I called my vet and I said, okay, David, I've either bought like a pseudo goldendoodle or a wolf with worms. And he started laughing. And after this, we've had him now for a year. Jenny, he is the best dog. I mean, he is such a sweetie. But honestly, I think all dogs are good dogs. So, yes, yes, Most. Most people would go, why do other people say you're a theologian? You're a bit of a nutter. So.
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Jenny Urich
Well, listen, I think people can know, like, you just have the best personality. And you have your own podcast which has the coolest name. It's called Back Porch Theology. And you speak all over the place. You speak with Levi Lesko. He's been on our podcast several times. So is Jenny. So people can interact with you in so many different ways. They can listen to your show, they can read your books, see you live, and obviously in that little snippet, you just get such a wonderful taste of your personality and your zest for life and your humor. So there's way more of Lisa Harper that you can attach yourself to. Tell us about your adoption journey. You adopted missy almost exactly 11 years ago.
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Lisa Harper
Yeah. This past Monday was our gotcha day. Eleven years, Jenny. I was. I was just scared to death of intimacy in my 20s and 30s, and there's some abuse in my backstory. Sorry, we're diving indeed a deep. I haven't even asked you to dinner in a movie, but. But to try to truncate a lot of abuse in my backstory. So I was really afraid of intimacy and very attracted to abusive men. And so God protected me from the men I was most attracted to. And the few good, honorable men I dated, God protected them from me because I was hot mess on a stick for so long. And by the time I got into my 40s, and I'm not saying I'm fixed, but God had pulled the deepest, most toxic roots out of my heart and mind, I realized, oh, shoot, I'm probably not going to get to be a mom now because I'm not married and I'm past the biological age of bearing children. My ovaries are probably raisins by now. And when I was a kid, When I was 17, my best friend and I had. We had started a Bible study with a fellowship of Christian athletes because we wanted to meet football players, and we love the Bible, but we had both made vows at 17 that when we got older, of course, we assumed we'd be married, that we both wanted to adopt. And God kind of brought that back to my mind when I was in my 40s and I had several people discourage me. Actually, a friend from church told me that I had had sabotage my shot at being a mom because I had told our small group that there was sexual abuse in my backstory. And she said, lisa, I know you've been to Christian counseling, but just in case you weren't fixed, you might unwittingly transfer some of the abuse you experienced as a child into a child of your own. So she said, I know you want to nurture. My encouragement would be for you to go to the Nashville Humane Society and adopt a dog, because you're really good with pets, but don't be a mother. And so I had a ton of shame about, gosh, does the damage in my past kind of put a lid on my future. I don't believe that theologically, but you know how sometimes there's Corners of your heart that are still stubbornly agnostic. So, anyway, it was just wild redemption for God to even get me to the point of kind of sticking my toe in the adoption pond. And. And I told I was in my 40s, late 40s, and I told the social worker, in my opinion, just my opinion, best case scenario for any kid is to have a loving mommy and a loving dad. But we live in a fallen world, and there's right now 150 million orphans in the world as we know it. Many of them will die before they even get through infancy due to really preventable things like clean water. And I said, so if you run across a child who doesn't have a mom or a dad and nobody seems to be standing in line for them, I think a chubby, older, single chick in Nashville, Tennessee, is a better option than to be institutionalized or to die in infancy. And I lost two adoptions before God woke me into Missy story. So my daughter was born in a really, really small, rural Haitian village. And her first mama, Marie, who I can't wait to meet in glory, passed when Missy was a baby. And there was nobody to care for Missy. And Missy had some pretty serious medical issues. And so I just happened to have a friend who was visiting this village to help them get a kitchen set up so that they could feed, because all the kids in this small village suffer from malnut. She just happened to be visiting the village for three days, two days after I lost an adoption at the 11th hour, and was with a group of people who took Missy's mom to the hospital. And the doctor came out and said, did you know this woman? And they're like, we actually did. And she was in our village. But Missy's mother was hidden because her medical problems in that culture, in a voodoo dominant culture, they would have killed her if they found out that the medical issue her mama had. And so Missy's mom had been hidden. And so the do doctor said, well, she, you know, she died en route. And then he looked at Missy and. And Missy was the only beautiful Haitian child in this circle of Americans who were visiting. And he said, is that Marie's daughter? And they said, yes. And he said, I have to test her. And of course, Missy had same medical condition. Her mother had unwittingly passed it to her through birth and was very, very, very sick. And he said, is there anybody to care for her? And they said, no, she doesn't have an extended family member who has the capacity to care for her. And he said, well, if we Put her in the state system, she's going to die within two months. He said, is there anybody, and I mean anybody, in a first world country who would be willing to step in this story? He said, I don't even know if she'll be adoptable. She's not in a crash yet. And Jenny, my friend, was just visiting for three days and just happened to be sitting in that small circle. And my friend, and this, I'm not trying to be silly, but my friend is in a denomination that is not given to a lot of. They're not real demonstrative. So what I'm trying to say is she's not the type who says, I heard the Lord say she. That's not the way she. That's just not the way she talks about her faith. And she said, lisa, as I was sitting there, the Lord unmistakably spoke to my spirit and said, lisa Harper is supposed to be that little girl's mother. So she called me, and this again is just right after I lost adoption, that just ripped my heart into. And she said, I know you're still grieving. And then she explained the story to me and she said, lisa, I don't want to be manipulative, but do you even have the bandwidth to pray about this? And I said, no. I said, nope, I've been praying about this for 30 years. Sign me up. Unless you think I was especially faithful. I got off the phone realizing I've just committed to try to help and ultimately adopt this little girl. That doctor saying, you know, it's not going to survive in Haiti. I've never been to Haiti. I don't know how to do this. When I got off the phone, I said a word that's not in the Bible because I really respect you and your podcast. I won't tell you what it is, but it does rhyme with wit because I thought, I don't know how to do this. And it has been the most extraordinary gift to get to become Missy's second mom. So I. I got to bring her home. April 14, 2014. I was 50 years old, went through menopause and motherhood at the same time. And the only thing I would do differently is I would have said yes to adoption years before. I wish I hadn't been so ruled by fear, but getting to be her second mother is how it's been. It's. It hasn't always been easy, and I'm a single parent, but it has been the most beautiful gift, other than Jesus, that God has ever given me. Undeserved but I will be grateful until that's really all I got. I'm a big talker. I've got big hair and a big head and I'm grateful.
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Jenny Urich
Baby, you're out in a Jesus shaped life. Getting to be Missy's second mama is the second greatest gift in my whole life, second only to my relationship with Jesus. And you talk about how you've often described your adoption journey as an experience of hiking up a mountain on rollerblades in a downpour. And yet here you are, 11 years later, the 11 year anniversary of your Gotcha Day. Can you give a message to the moms? We've learned a lot more about sexual abuse in the last year because the youth pastor at a church we were attending was just charged with nine felonies due to misconduct with minors. And we tried to raise the warning. Our whole family sent in letters and we were actually kicked out of the church for doing so. So it's been quite an awful, awful experience, especially for our kids. And so in learning more about it, I have learned that one in four girls and one in six boys are abused by the time they're 18. So this is actually a really, really common thing.
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Lisa Harper
Right?
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Jenny Urich
So I would love for you to talk to who is hearing similar things or to the woman, to the young woman, the person who maybe isn't a mom yet, to the young woman who is hearing similar things that people said to you, which was maybe you shouldn't be a mother. Maybe you should just get a dog.
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Lisa Harper
Right? Two things I'd love to say, and I already love you, but I also need to warn you that concise is not my gift. So sound bites usually 45 minutes long with me. But the two things I'd like to say to any, any saint, any image bearer of God, whether you know him or not, you still bear his image, is that God didn't design gender discrimination or misogyny or sexual abuse. That kind of horror is perpetrated by people and perpetuated by power differentials. But the God is not. No matter what you've heard in culture, God is the antithesis of a misogynist. From the very beginning of this love story we call the Bible, he makes it very clear that his sons and his daughters have inherent value. And so God would never endorse or design a system or a structure where abuse is glossed over that grieves the heart of our Father. And I will say as. Because, you know, Jenny, I. I experienced sexual abuse for quite some time and I've experienced some really yucky stuff disguised as biblical exegesis in the church. And it took me a really, really, really long time to begin to believe that I have inherent dignity and to see that in other people. And so if. And I'm so sorry if you have. But if in any way abuse has affected your backstory, it is a lie that that damage puts a lid on your future. But I would strongly encourage you to get help. Find people who are for you. Find people who believe your story. Find a safe place to heal. Jesus will never, ever, ever, ever tell you to stop crying. He will actually tell you that he stores your tears in a wineskin. He counts them. He is an empathetic high priest. Don't throw the gathering of believers out with the bathwater. My friend Christine Kane says this often because Chris was also experienced sexual abuse for 13 years and throughout her high school, I mean, her high school years, junior high years, and then found out at 30 she was adopted. Didn't even know. So tremendous shame and abuse and marginalization in her backstory. But Chris will say, now, when what was done to you becomes less significant than what God has done for you, it becomes a scar that actually can morph into a beauty mark, because you can help others with that. And I was abused as a child. I haven't been being abused as a grown woman. And so what could have taken me out has made my. My heart is real tender in places toward people who are currently experiencing abuse or who've been made to feel dirty because of abuse. And that, that's. That's so far from the truth of the God who loves us. So I. I'd say do whatever you have to do to move toward healing. I had a lot of Christian counseling that was a means of grace. I'm so grateful for a safe place to unpack some of the places that made me feel dirty and damaged and like I could never be anybody's mom. And if you have people who are speaking shame into you and wrapping it in verses, they're taking God's word totally out of context. God never uses shame as a motivational tool.
- [19:26]
Jenny Urich
It's so good. You know, there's so many people that really needed to hear that, and maybe we'll pass it on to other people who need to hear it. And once again, Lisa is your person. Connect with her. She has so many other books, this new book coming out, her own podcast, and you can see her in person and hear what she has to say.
- [19:45]
Imagine living your whole life without ever holding a Bible or ever seeing one in your own language. That's the reality for countless people around the world today. But through crew, that's changing. CREW has missionaries in nearly every country, and they're seeing an incredible move of God in Africa. Whole communities are sharing a single Bible. In Europe, teens are begging for copies. We don't have enclosed nations. The gospel is spreading fast, but without access to scripture, it's hard to grow in your faith.
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Faith.
- [20:11]
That's why I love partnering with crew. People are searching for truth. And when people finally receive God's word in their own language, lives can be changed forever. With just $24 a month, you can give three people the gift of God's word every month. And as a thank you, Crew will provide 12 meals to those in need. And you'll also receive a free copy of my book until the streetlights come on. To give, text our H O U R to 71326 or visit give.crew.org H O U r your monthly gift can truly make an eternal impact. Just remember to text H O U R to 71326 or visit give.crew.org Our message and data rates may apply. U s addresses only.
- [20:56]
Lisa Harper
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- [22:06]
Jenny Urich
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- [23:24]
I was thinking about this verse when you were talking about your friend and she thought Missy is supposed to be with Lisa. This verse in Proverbs, it's actually one of my favorites. It says roll your work on the Lord. And this is from the Amplified. I grew up with the Niv of.
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Lisa Harper
Niv and I love Amplified. I never met a Bible I didn't like.
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Jenny Urich
Right, right. But I think when you grow up with one, then you tend to kind of gloss it over.
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Lisa Harper
Yeah.
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Jenny Urich
So I've grabbed some different versions here and there just as I pay attention a little bit more. Roll your works upon the Lord. Commit and trust them holy to Him. He will cause your thoughts to become agreeable to his will and so shall your plans be established and succeed. Oh, that's what it makes me think about. With your friend, her thoughts became agreeable to his will. And it happens. It happens a lot in life and it happens through friendships and relationships. What a story. I mean there is so much more about your story. You're on a little farmet south of Nashville. You were accidentally run over by a car when you were a kid. You've dealt with panic attacks.
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Lisa Harper
I actually read this book.
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Jenny Urich
I love this book. A Jesus shaped life. Your parents went through a divorce when you were young. You had a spot in your life when you were just holding on to the end of your rope. A sobering cancer diagnosis. So a lot of backstory Here. And also you have a doctorate from Denver Seminary. So this is incredible. You are talking about theology, but you're talking about it not from this sort of heady spot. You know, even you're talking about how does it actually look? Theology is meant to be lived. That is so powerful. Let's just hit this one real quick. Since we were just talking about it, talking about tears and talking about heartache, you have a conversation on back porch theology. It's like about the theology of tears. Tell us about that.
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Lisa Harper
Well, we, you know, I think it's such a, a stereotype that if you are a Christian then you just have to be perky and have a high metabolism and be on keto and not wear stretchy pants and have a quilted bob will cover. And there's this idea that if your life is messy or if there's unraveled threads or if you're sad, it's like we'll cover that up. I mean there, there's almost an encouragement to wear spiritual Spanx to just tighten everything up so you look like you have it all together. Because heavens to Betsy, if we, if we show culture how messy we are or how we are still prone to, to wander and prone to make mistakes, then somehow it'll hurt God's reputation. And I'm like, that's antithetical to the gospel. You don't just put your hope in Jesus and everything's hunky dory after that. I need Jesus more Now as a 61 year old woman than I did as a kid when I walked an aisle and put my hope in him and didn't know how to pronounce Habakkuk. And so this, this idea that you have to be perfect to be a Christian, it's not biblically defensible. Perfection is not a prerequisite and sad is not bad. I heard that kind of tacitly preached my whole life and I thought I've just got to be good, I've got to be well behaved. And I grew up a lot earlier than you did, Jenny. I also had to wear pantyhose and sit on a pew, which that alone is, is we could call abusive.
- [26:50]
Jenny Urich
I had to do that too. And they always had a rip and the pews were hard, hard, hard.
- [26:59]
Lisa Harper
Pay attention and Lord have mercy. And so there's just this stereotype, this horrific stereotype that if you put your hope in Jesus, it means you're going to have kind of this stiff, joyless life and it can't be messy. And I'm like Have you read the Bible? Have you read even the salt or the psalms, which. All 150 Psalms were originally written as songs. S O N G S so it's kind of like God's Spotify list. The biggest genre in God's Spotify list are sad songs. Over and over again, people who are going, my life doesn't look the way I thought it would look. How much longer do you have to endure this God? Goodness gracious. And instead of chastising them, he says, bring it to me. You don't have to curate your emotions. Bring everything to me. He actually says, I'm close to the brokenhearted. I'm near to you when your lives feel crushed. So this idea that you have to be, you know, perky and have a perfect life to be a good Christian. Good Christian is juxtaposition. Anyway, there is no such thing as a good Christian. There are desperate people who recognize I can't make it without Jesus. And so, yeah, tears are all throughout Scripture. And instead of looking down his nose at tears, God actually welcomes tears. I think sometimes tears are what keep our hearts soft. I'm not talking about narcissistic, gazing at your navel, whiny tears. But what's shocking is he even allows that you can find story after story of saints in scripture who whined. And God didn't fry him into grease spots of oblivion. He understood. Y'all just see through the glass dimly, baby. You don't understand that ultimately, ultimately everything will work out for your good and my glory, but you can't wrap your finite human minds around my sovereign mercy. And so sometimes I love how Eugene Peterson, you know, he wrote the message paraphrase, and he describes obedience as a long walk in the same direction. And sometimes in my life, it's been a long crawl. It's been. I am just kind of collapsing into the mercy of God with tears. And instead of feeling him go, oh, I can't believe she's crying again. Instead, I just find these wide open arms going, honey, I know. I know it's hard. I know you don't understand, and I know it's hard. I love that our God welcomes everything we feel. Instead of saying, only bring me the pretty, pretty neat parts.
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Jenny Urich
That's so good. One of the things that you said in this particular episode was you were talking about your own childhood, how crying used to make you feel uncomfortable. You're trying to be Little Miss Sunshine and even holding on to the feelings and the emotions of your parents, you know, if they go through A divorce when you're six, you're saying, well, I don't want to add to that and be a crybaby and add to the burden. And you're so little. That's like a kindergartner. But you, you talk about how sincere tears are God's gift to express emotion where words fail. And isn't it interesting the science backs it. Now, I don't know what the science is, but I know, I've read about it, the release. And there's things.
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Lisa Harper
Oh yeah.
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Jenny Urich
Chemical things that are happening.
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Lisa Harper
Chemical things. Well even, you know, in, in the same vein, belly laughing. I used to think if you're serious about your faith, you have to be serious about yourself. I mean the neuro pathways, the physiological health that comes with a long belly laugh where you either leak out of your eyes or somewhere else if you're my age, because I can't jump on trampolines anymore. But you just die laughing with a friend. God doesn't see either end of the emotional continuum as excess. It's like, bring me your tears, bring me your belly laughs, bring me you. I love you, you matter to me. And if we want to live a Jesus shaped life, we have to do that with the world around us. And so if you're shoulder to shoulder with someone whose kids were abused in church, my heavens to Betsy, lean into that. Weep with us who weep, rejoice with those who rejoice for us to just have these, these sanitized emotional lives. There's nothing about that that's godly.
- [31:24]
Jenny Urich
Talk to us about the path of Lisa Harper. Six years old, parents get divorced, all of this trauma, unexpected loss of two significant relationships, barely hanging on to the knot just 15 years ago. To the Lisa Harper who has a doctorate from Denver Seminary.
- [31:41]
Lisa Harper
Well, I've got to qualify that. Jenny. I'm in the third chapter of my thesis, so I have, I've finished all the academics of my doctorate, but my thesis has not been defended yet. So technically I'm a doctorate in progress.
- [31:54]
Jenny Urich
So I'm almost, well, it all counts to me. So, and I think everyone listening, how.
- [32:00]
Lisa Harper
Much longer it's, well, if everything goes according to plan, I'll defend this fall. And so until you defend, then that goes through. So and if it happens, I am buying the hat. And I will walk at graduation with yes, I will roll with rollerblades and scare. I will be the oldest, oldest doctorate from Denver Seminary, I think in history. But, but yeah, I love to learn not, not to accrue knowledge about God, but to see him bigger. So I think oftentimes we think of Bible study in academic, stiff, kind of almost like, you know, old men in dusty offices. And I'm like, oh, gosh, that's not theology. Theology breaks down from the Greek words theos, which refers to God, and logos, which is conversations. Theology is conversations about God. But I. Yeah, I was a faker for a really, really long time because I lived under the lie that I've got to keep the messiest, saddest parts, the places where. Where I'm scared, the places where I don't believe. I've got to keep all that under wraps and just kind of be a good girl and pull myself up by my bootstraps. I didn't cognitively believe that theologically, but my. My poor heart lags so far behind my head. And so in my heart, I just always thought, I've got to be better. I've got to do better. I've got to be better, I've got to do better. You know, I could exegete grace, but I just thought, I've got to try harder. And, yeah, about 15 years ago, God mercifully, you know, David says in Psalm 119, in his mercy and his faithfulness, he has. Has allowed me to go through pain. He has afflicted me. In the economy of God. Sometimes pain is a promotion. He's saying, your shoulders are stronger than you think, and I'm going to give you something heavy to carry, and it's going to bring me glory, and it's going to give me, you, authenticity and credibility with other people who hurt around you. But anyway, he. He just allowed all the fake legs of my stool to be knocked out from under me. And I found myself figuratively and physically. I lived in this little cottage by myself south of Nashville. And I was on my face in the dark, just going, I can't. I can't do this anymore. I. I can't do this anymore. I can't carry the weight of my own life anymore.
- [34:22]
Jenny Urich
I'm.
- [34:22]
Lisa Harper
I'm too sad. I'm too disappointed, too broken. I'm too tired. This is too. I just couldn't do it. And, yeah, I lost two primary relationships, and I had a pretty serious cancer diagnosis that ended up being not nearly as serious as it first presented. But I just. Mostly, mostly I was. Gosh, I just remember being so tired of how hard life had been. And I tried to be a good girl, and it hadn't worked for me and Jenny. I've never heard an audible voice from God, but I'VE heard his voice so loud in my mind and heart that it may as well have been audible. And he said. I mean, as clear as a bell, he said, lisa, you've been running scared your whole life. And so I'm going to take you to the basement and I'm going to sit there with you in the dark until fear doesn't own you anymore. And for about six months, I was so weak in every way that I had a hard time getting out of bed physically without speaking the name Jesus. And I'm. I want to be very respectful. I know you've got a ton of friends who listen, who. That's. That's not their faith journey. They don't believe Jesus is the Son of God. And so I want to be very respectful and say, this is. This is my heart. This is. This is how God has called me to himself. And if you don't believe in Jesus, gosh, I just. Maybe the Jesus has been presented to you is not who Jesus is at all. But he was so kind to me. And I kind of wobbled to the bathroom and I had some laminated promises from God. You know, the Bible's not a rule book. It's a love story. And I had these laminated promises from God, and I would kind of brush my teeth and repeat those promises and. And I've always been a doer. I've always been an extrovert. I've been, you know, what the world would say. I've been successful. I've had good jobs. I've had a lot of friends. And so I was. I was embarrassed to be so weak. And yet it was in God's mercy that I came face to face with my own inability to carry the full weight of my life. Honestly, it was his mercy for me to see. Oh, I'm actually not quite as capable as I thought. I need community. I need to be honest about the times when I need people to pick up a corner of my mat, carry me a roof and lower me. Jesus, I'm very good at giving. Receiving, not so much. And so in his mercy, he dismantled a lot of really cruddy theology I held onto and a lot of my performative nature. He just so graciously peeled some of that fake and posing off me, and I felt like a turtle without a shell. But, you know, once you've gotten out of the cage of performance, you go, that's too small for me now. I will never go back in. And so I'm a lot messier than I used to be. I don't have a perfect sound bite answer for every question. I. I tell Missy I'm sorry a lot because I've made every mistake known to motherhood. And I want her to know I love her more than I knew I had the capacity to love. But my love is flawed. And so I want to go, baby, I'm sorry. Sorry I raised my voice at you. I want you to run to Jesus because I will love you with every breath I have. But as much as I love you, there's going to be places I fail you. And so when I fail you, you tell me and. And I will own it and we'll go on together. But I don't want to put all of my emotional expectations on my daughter's shoulders. She. She is not my hope. She's not the reason I get up in the morning. She is tangible grace. But my child is not my hope. My child is a gift. And so even part of being broken in the most merciful way by God. I think I needed to go through that before I got the gift of parenthood. Because I would have tried to make Missy a mini me had high parented her before being broken. And I don't want Missy to be a mini me. I want missing me all her whatever and whoever that looks like, I want to cheer for that. I don't want to try to make her a better version of me. So people will look at my daughter and go, oh, wow, what a good mom. I want people to look at my daughter and go, oh wow, what a good God.
- [39:11]
Jenny Urich
Wow. So you, you're modeling all of the things that you talk about. That's what you're doing. You're walking through. And other people get to walk through with you or behind you. You know, as someone who's inspired.
- [39:28]
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- [40:42]
Lisa Harper
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- [43:16]
Jenny Urich
So 61 years old, woman, single mom, in your last leg of getting a doctorate of theology from Denver Seminary. What an inspiration. That is incredible to do things. I like what you said. I do think that people, I myself included, think of theology as old men in dusty rooms.
- [43:39]
Lisa Harper
Sure.
- [43:39]
Jenny Urich
So you're like, well, she's got a, she's getting a theology degree. So it's, it's eye opening. It opens up the door for possibility. What's out there? What, what maybe might you do that you didn't think was either possible or even necessary or that might be life enhancing? Like, I would have been like, I don't, don't just pastors get that? I don't know. So it's incredible. So you talk about in this book, formal theology versus functional theology. This is in a Jesus shaped life and I learned so much. So what a fantastic book. I learned all of these words. I don't even know how to pronounce them. Epignosis, I mean, I Numa, pneumatology, or all of these things. I hadn't heard of the actual words.
- [44:24]
Lisa Harper
So I learned a lot.
- [44:25]
Jenny Urich
I'd love to focus in our time here on one that I think a lot, a lot, a lot of people struggle with. I'm going to try it. F.J. theodicy.
- [44:38]
Lisa Harper
Perfect. You can't say it better than that. And of course, it doesn't matter how we pronounce the words. It's what's behind the word. It's the meaning. The reason I give the words is because so many times I have so many dear friends and they'll sit in church and go, I don't know what he was talking about. And I'm like, you actually do. It's just the word through you.
- [45:00]
Jenny Urich
Okay, I want to say this. I like that you gave the words for a lot of reasons. First of all, it opens up the door to, hey, maybe there's some more studying I could do.
- [45:07]
Lisa Harper
So I really liked that.
- [45:08]
Jenny Urich
Like, if I thought theology is meant for the, the man who has the pastor position, then I don't. I have never studied any of these words. So I loved that you use the words. Number two. I learned a lot. So it's good to learn the words. I also think that it gives a bigger breadth, a larger breadth to the fact that this has really been studied. It's not just ethereal thing. You know, people talk about how can there be bad in the world with a good God. It's like, you know, this is actually a. So when you, when you went through these words and you talk about the theology of tears and you talk about, you know, that we're like, I heard it before, I'm not going to say it right. But like how we're made in God's image.
- [45:45]
Lisa Harper
Imago day.
- [45:46]
Jenny Urich
Okay. Imago Day. Like that, you're like, oh, wait, there is hundreds of years of people who have studied this.
- [45:55]
Lisa Harper
Yeah.
- [45:56]
Jenny Urich
And so it gives it more weight.
- [45:57]
Lisa Harper
I liked that you also, it also for, for those of us who grew up with the idea that God is a unibrowd librarian, well, my apologies to librarians. God is a punitive, unibrowed kind of rule enforcer just waiting to whack us over the head with a 50 pound Bible. That's not who he presents himself to be. And so I think when you study and you study the deep things of God, you go, oh, gosh, I had some misperceptions that were taught to me maybe by a spiritual leader or I just assumed, doomed. And that's actually not how he presents himself. When you realize that at the very beginning of the Bible, God is an us. So we don't just have Holy Spirit coming on the scene in Acts, chapter two. We don't have Jesus, you know, with, with hair extensions, dance around the Sea of Galilee. God is a community. Why does that matter to us? Well, because he knew loneliness would come with a fall. So the very beginning he says, let us our God Augustine, an old dead guy who I love, he says, only the Christian God exists in perfect community unto himself. And that God who exists in perfect community says, let's make male and female in our likeness. Well, so why does that matter? Well, the reason it matters is we're hardwired for relationship. And so loneliness came with a fall. So we have a God who actually cares about when we get lonely and says, I'm always with you. We have a Savior who laid down a scepter in glory and came down and didn't just shrug into a suit of skin. Everybody's talking about that at Easter, but he actually stooped to Our level, got our heartache in his hair, got our. And you go, okay, and he didn't dilute his divinity. Why does that matter? Well, if we just had a faraway God, we might could worship him or, or idolize him or have reverence for him. But it takes an up close Savior you can lean into to go, oh, he knows me. He's not some existential construct. And we have a culture that is spewing all kinds of information and you might hear some, something on a podcast or something on, on social media and go, well yeah, but God is. And I'm like, where'd you get your information? Because a lot of times what we're, what is being peddled to us as a spiritual truism is actually just a preference or a prejudice. And so I'm like, okay, you heard that. Now let's go back to how God reveals himself and let's look and see if that. Because that sounds pretty mean spirited and pretty divisive. Let's take that to the entirety of scripture. Let's look at it in the socio historical context. Because yes, slavery exists in the Bible. Did God affirm slavery? Did God create something? Heck no. You see this restraint of slavery throughout, throughout the meta narrative of scripture. So there's all these things where God has been, what's the word I'm looking for? Portrayed as a misogynist, as a hate monger, as all these things. I'm like, well, let's actually go to the Bible and see if that actually is true. When you read all this narrative and all this history. And by the way, there's gobs of ancillary academic ancient writings that support the narrative of Scripture. So you can say I don't believe in the Bible. I'm like, great, go back to Josephus, go back to all of the, all of the works were written during this era. And let's see if what you're saying you've heard about God actually stands up to this. And, and usually it doesn't. Usually they've gotten it through some prejudiced spiritual leader who maligned the mercy of God, maybe unintentionally, but it has been so fun to study at a deep level because instead of it being rigid and joyless, it's like, like this is awesome. And Jenny, you are a massive theologian because you have all kinds of conversations about God and so it doesn't matter if you can pronounce the multi syllabic theological terms, theology, theos, God, Logos, words or conversations. So at its core we're all theologians because we all have conversations about God. Does he exist? Does he love me? Is he knowable? So I'm like, let's. Let's get rid of the elitism and let's just get together and have respectful, honest conversations about a God who loves us more than. More than we've dared to dream.
- [50:42]
Jenny Urich
Lisa, what a powerful book. I have never heard that message in a Jesus shaped life. We are all theologians. So when you're talking about. Say it again. Day.
- [50:53]
Lisa Harper
Imago day.
- [50:54]
Jenny Urich
Imago day.
- [50:55]
Lisa Harper
It's from the Latin, and imago means image. And then day, and if to tattoo it, make sure the D is capitalized, because that means the only true God. So imago day. And it comes from Genesis 1, 26 and 27 that says we are all made in God's image. So again, whether you believe in God or not, regardless of gender, regardless of ethnicity, regardless of socioeconomic background, according to this love story we call the Bible, every single human. Every single human has inherent value and dignity based on God. And if you look at the story going forward, God's will is about always redeeming our inherent value and dignity. So anybody who says, well, Christians hate women. Well, some Christians might hate women, but they can't use the Bible to corroborate that, because from the very beginning of time, he says, all y'all, and that's my translation, all y'all bear my image. So his love for his sons and his daughters, whether black, white, Asian, Indonesian, South African, all bear his image. They all bear his thumbprint. And so if the Bible doesn't preach in Sudan, it shouldn't preach in Nashville. This is not an American concept. We have a God who loves his people.
- [52:22]
Jenny Urich
So for people who are wondering what is in this book, a Jesus shaped life, it is all of this. It is the theology, but it's the theology for you and for me, for the person who's not in a pulpit, it is for the everyday person. And so you talk about how this is that particular one. Let us make mankind in our image and our likeness. The very essence of who we are as a people of God is one of your favorite things to teach about. And you talk about how there's this common lament. I just feel like there isn't anyone who knows the real me. And so you talk about that. You talk about the doctrine of the end times. You talk about this theodicy, which is about the reality of God's absolute goodness and providence despite the existence of evil and death. You did a whole podcast series about that as well. But that's also in the book. And all of these other things about heart knowledge and head knowledge. And you talk about Job. When you're talking about theodicy, you talk a lot about Job. Super interesting things I'd never heard of before in there. I learned a lot. Here's a question I have. Yes, I just talked to this man named N.D. wilson, who has written these phenomenal, phenomenal books. Some of my absolute favorite one's called Death by Living, and another one's called Notes from the Tilt a Whirl, which is about, like, the notes from this. You know, we're on the spinning earth and space. And he talks about how love stoops, how the word stoops and comes down to our level. Just phenomenal books. And he was talking about how when he had. He had a cancer scare, he had a tumor in his brain and he was reading about Job, he thought, well, I should go read about Job. And you're talking a lot about Job in this book, too. And he said one of the things that never. He never noticed, I've never noticed was the amount of times in Job where God said, look at the animals. And that actually is in the Bible a lot. Consider nature. Consider the lilies of the field. Look at the birds of the air. Go to the ant, you sluggard. That's in Levi's last book. That's one of my favorite verses, actually, because ants are everywhere, like, often in their. They're often on your wall or in the kitchen. They're everywhere. There's nowhere you can go where you're not going to find an ant.
- [54:18]
Lisa Harper
Right.
- [54:18]
Jenny Urich
So go to the aunt, you slugger.
- [54:20]
Lisa Harper
Yeah.
- [54:21]
Jenny Urich
And you know, he's just talking about. And this is, you know, this is a thousand hours outside. We're aiming to get outside for many benefits, but they include spiritual.
- [54:30]
Lisa Harper
Right.
- [54:31]
Jenny Urich
Is there a theology of nature?
- [54:34]
Lisa Harper
Oh, golly, yes. You're exactly right. I can't say it better than you, Jenny. You know, in. In Romans, it talks about all of creation, pointing to his glory. So I ride motorcycles. And there's something about being old makes you just long to wear leather pants to have an excuse to wear them. But anyway, I was on a ride not too long ago, and we live out in the boonies in Tennessee. And it was just this gorgeous afternoon. The sun was setting, and so I pulled my bike over to the side of the road and was just leaning on my bike looking at the sun setting behind. These deer just cast this rosy hue over everything. And I was in the middle of nowhere. And I hear a Harley. I love Harley's. And I hear a Harley sound coming toward me. And I look up and it's this, I mean, big, burly, stereotypical Harley dude. And. And I was like, oh, wow. I mean, I'm out here in the middle of nowhere by myself. My cell phone doesn't work, and this guy drives his bike straight up to mine. And I was like, oh. Because he just looked rough. And forgive me for my presumptions, but he just. He just looked a little rough. And he. He pulled his bike where I could touch his bike. And I was like, oh, yikers, I'm going to be on csx. And he pulls his helmet off and he goes, are you okay? And I was like, yes, sir. And he said, is your bike okay? And I said, yes, sir. And he said, all right, I just want to make sure you're okay. If you need my number, you run into gas. Well, he puts his helmet back on, he zooms off, and I just watch him retreat. And I thought, that is so not how I thought that was gonna go. And it's like the Lord in that moment went, open your eyes. There's so much more beauty around you. You know, how could that rose colored sun set behind that hill in front of those deer? How could that come from pond scum? How could I create another person in my image who you would judge based on their. Their tats and piercings in black leather, even though you're wearing it too, sis. And instead he extends mercy. Open your eyes to the goodness of God. Yes. Evil exists in this world. And it's a horrible, horrible thing. Did it come by God's design? No. Is he a good God? Ultimately? Will there be redemption? Yes. Will it happen in my eye calendar? Probably not. But is he still good? And so he allows us to grieve with what we can't see. I love Job's response because, you know, after he loses everything, it says he shaves his head and he tears his robe. So he's not posing, he's not using filters. And go, no, no, I'm fine, I'm fine, fine. Like I used to do when I ate. He's saying this. This is crappy. This is awful. Sorry if any kids are listening. I know that's a bad word, but this is cruddy. This is awful. This hurts. And in the exact same phrase, it says, and he worships. So you can have a broken heart and raised hands at the same time. You can say, God. I don't understand. He welcomes us to say I don't understand. I don't understand. Misty and I aren't going to the hospital today because she has quarterly hospital visits because of the medical condition her precious first mama unwittingly gave to her. I wish I could wave a magic wand and my daughter would never have to have another blood draw. There's a lot of things you know. I wish my uncle didn't just die from a melanoma. He was the greatest man I've ever known. I can't wrap my human mind around that kind of sorrow. A friend of mine just lost her child. No parent should outlive their child. There's real trauma and real sorrow and real grief on this broken tilt a whorl we call home. For now. That doesn't negate the goodness of God. From the very beginning, he's been planning to redeem and restore what we broke, to repair the intimacy that we walked away from. He's a good God, even when life is anything but. And sometimes you just have to cry or raise your fist and say, I don't understand. And instead of frying us into a grease spot of oblivion, he says, I know, I know. And then he holds us until we can put our fist down.
- [58:55]
Jenny Urich
A Jesus shaped life. How diving deeper into theology can transform us and our world with the radical kindness of God. What I hope that this conversation has portrayed is that this book is for you. You're listening. This book is for you. Even if you think this book is not for you, this book is for you. And Lisa's podcast, Back Porch Theology, is for you. Nominated three years in a row for Caleb Fan Award, it features lively conversations with you and friends about substantive but not stuffy perspectives about all things Jesus, theology, orthodoxy, Spanx, spicy guacamole chips in.
- [59:36]
Lisa Harper
Queso is a consistent recurring theme. I think when we get to heaven, there will be massive vats, hot chips and queso and spicy guac.
- [59:48]
Jenny Urich
There you go. Lisa, this has been an absolute honor. We always end our show with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood? That was outside.
- [59:57]
Lisa Harper
Golly, jeepers. After my parents divorced, my dad had a ranch. Little, you know, modest 40 acres. And I had a quarter horse named Gypsy. And getting on my horse bareback and racing as fast as I could through rows of Florida orange groves. Smelling the oranges, being on the back of my horse under a blue sky. That's my favorite memory from childhood.
- [60:23]
Jenny Urich
Lisa, you are a gem. I love that you use the word yikers. Yikers. I think I want to add that one to my Lexicon. I love it. Here you are. Theologian also uses the word yikers. So this has been fantastic. Huge congrats on your new book and thank you so much for being here.
- [60:39]
Lisa Harper
Oh, Jenny, you are a jewel. I'm so sorry I've never gotten to rub shoulders with you. I. I love your personality. You are so well spoken and so kind. Some people who have the platform you have, their humility has not caught up with their gift yet. And you are just. You reek kindness. You are so generous.
- [61:03]
Jenny Urich
That's so nice. That actually makes me feel really emotional. We've had a. We've had a rough year.
- [61:07]
Lisa Harper
It has been an absolute joy to get to be with you. I can't wait to be with you face to face. Like, I want to be in the same room with you.
- [61:15]
Jenny Urich
With our heads. It's gonna be great.
- [61:18]
Lisa Harper
With our beautiful big heads.
- [61:21]
Jenny Urich
I think it's gonna happen. We come down to Nashville a lot. We were actually just there this week. Earlier this week, John Acuff did a remarkable conference. His first live event.
- [61:30]
Lisa Harper
Right.
- [61:30]
Jenny Urich
He's so great and he loves queso just like you. So you guys, everybody loves queso, but I mean, he is outspoken about queso just like you are. So. So, yeah, we'll meet, I'm sure, sometime in person and we'll get our picture and show everyone. Thanks, Lisa.
- [61:46]
Lisa Harper
Thank you, Jenny, so much.
- [61:51]
Dr. Edie Wadsworth
Hi, dear one, I'm Dr. Edie Wadsworth, your new favorite Christian life coach, and I want to invite you to the House of Joy podcast. If you're a woman over 40 or the daughter of one who wants to build a positive mindset, healthier habits, and thriving relationships, this is the show for you. We talk about personal growth, growth, faith resilience, and creating a life you're obsessed with. So if you're tired of feeling stuck and ready to step into more joy and purpose, come join us. Listen now, wherever you get your podcast.
- [62:21]
Mackie and Kenz
Are you looking for your new favorite podcast that's both entertaining and will challenge you in your walk with Jesus? Hey, we're Mackie Kenz from the for the Girl podcast. Every Tuesday, we break down everything that we wish someone had told us us in our 20s, from faith and relationships to wild career transition, we're getting real about all of our mess ups and the things God has taught us along the way. Think of us as your hilarious weekly dose of honest conversation with your Internet besties who've been exactly where you currently are. So come check out for the girl on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you love to listen to podcasts and make sure to click Follow on our show so that you each new episode is dropped right into your personal feed.