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The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 498: How to Develop Brains That Are Capable of Enjoying Success | Dr. William Stixrud and Ned Johnson, What Do You Say?
01:02:09
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- [00:01]
Ginny Urich
Hey, friends, Ginny here. I just wanted to take a quick moment before we dive in to say something exciting. We are just days away from hitting 500 episodes of this podcast. It is hard to believe how far this journey has come and it wouldn't have been possible without you, your support, your shares, your messages, and your reviews. If this podcast has helped you in any way, would you please take a moment to leave a rating or review. It helps others find the show and it means so much to me as we hit this huge milestone together. Now, today's episode is one of the most eye opening and practical conversations we've had. I'm welcoming back two favorite guests, Dr. William Sticksrud and Ned Johnson, to talk about how to raise kids who don't just succeed on paper, but actually develop brains that are capable of enjoying success. This one is full of clarity, tools, and a whole lot of encouragement. Let's go. Imagine raising your children and going through your entire life never having seen a Bible in your own language, never being able to open God's word for comfort, truth or direct direction. For many around the world, that's reality. But that is changing. CREW has missionaries in nearly every country and they are seeing people come to faith in Jesus in incredible numbers. In Africa, believers are sharing one Bible among entire communities. In Europe, teens are asking for Bibles faster than we can provide them. And in places where Christianity is underground, the Gospel is exploding. But access to scripture has not caught up. That's why I love partnering with crew. They're working to put Bibles into the hands of those who are desperate for truth. With just 24amonth, you can give three people the gift of God's word every month. And as a thank you, crew will provide 12 meals to those in need and you'll receive a free copy of my book until the street lights come on. To give, text our H O U R to 71326 or visit give.crew.org that's hour to 71326 Message and data rates may apply US addresses only. Your monthly gift can truly make a massive and eternal impact. Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Urich. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and I am so excited about this. This doesn't happen very often. Had on two guests that I absolutely loved and their episode was so widely spread I got so much feedback on it. And Ned Johnson and Dr. Will Stix Red are back. Welcome.
- [02:23]
Ned Johnson
Thank you.
- [02:25]
Ginny Urich
The other podcast that we did together, which was about the workbook about the self Driven Child. And you have the book called the self Driven Child. And we talked about the workbook that just came. I got so much feedback about that. And at the end of our conversation, which I loved, you talked about this other book that you have, which I think I already own, but. But maybe hadn't read it through yet. It's called what do you say? And this is such a wonderful book because as parents, if you don't know the exact verbiage, you just don't know what to do. You only get kind of what you've gotten from your parents. And so I love the COVID of this. It has you need to study harder crossed out. Because I said so crossed out. I know what's best for you. Crossed out. You're grounded crossed out. And this is the type of thing that, you know, you grow up with it and you don't really know what the alternatives are. The subtitle is how to talk with kids to build motivation, stress tolerance and a happy home. So huge, huge. Thank you first of all for coming on in the first place and for coming back.
- [03:22]
Ned Johnson
Thank you for having us.
- [03:22]
Dr. William Stixrud
Yeah, yeah.
- [03:23]
Ginny Urich
Okay, so here's what we're going to kick off with. If this is okay with you.
- [03:26]
Ned Johnson
You got it.
- [03:26]
Ginny Urich
I took all sorts of notes from this book. Okay. A couple of things I loved about this book in particular. You give the verbiage, say this, you know, or you give ideas of how to communicate about different topics, like so that you're not trying to control and how do you get buy in and all of these different types of things. If you've only learned because I said so, you may not have any other options. But you also include in this what you say non verbally. And that's sprinkled all the way throughout the book too is what are we saying to our kids when we are tracking them on Life360 and when we are nagging, nagging, nagging. And so what are we communicating? So I love that. I love that the book has both. I'd love to start with this. You talk about being a non anxious presence, which is such a big topic because I think so many of us are anxious and we're nervous and we're fearful of the future. Can you talk about what messages kids are getting when we have an anxious presence?
- [04:24]
Dr. William Stixrud
When we were working on this book, Jenny, it seemed to us that given the incredible levels of anxiety in young people, that they must be getting the message to be very afraid. How does that happen? And so what we focus on in part is the language that we use and we know that ideally we would be communicating to kids is calm and courage and kind of a courageous attitude. But when we tell them when we're really worried about you, when we do all this, I want to make sure that nothing ever happens due to that could be harmful. That the world is a much more dangerous place than it really is. And I think that your work focusing on the outside and giving kids more freedom is so important. I think in the self driven child we mentioned that in most places, most people in most parts of the earth are living in the safest time and the safest place in human history. And yet we have this perception that for young people the world is so dangerous and we have to be tracking them. We have to know where they are at all times. And we do that. Not only good, the message that I don't trust you to keep yourself safe, but also that I'm so anxious I need to know every second where you are. Those kind of messages. I'm sure I'm leaving out others, Ned. Those are some of the things that we've thought about as ways that kids get a sense that I need to be really afraid. This world is very dangerous.
- [05:44]
Ned Johnson
I love that, Bill. I mean, Ginny made the point of tracking. And so we think about the idea of with Life360, you know, where kids can be down to the meter, right? And with the online grading portals and gosh, bless the people who, the technologists who thought they really need to bring these tools to education, right? Where now parents can know and kids can know what the grades are down, you know, to the tenth of the hundredth of a point, minute by minute. I mean, I was given a lecture up in Long island and the educators talking there about parents, they could track the parents tracking their kids. And parents could be on the portal checking like every hour, sometimes multiple times of an hour, looking for a great update, A great update, A great update, A great update. And you think, oh my goodness, how does that constant hypervigilance do anything to children other than say, you must be terrified if you fall off the path? And, you know, Bill and I, Bill, especially as a clinical neuropsychologist, working with kids who. Learning is hard, emotional regulation is hard, attention is hard. You know, my kids, my daughter, with full school refusal for three months of eighth grade, you know, really struggled through high school, just coming home from college and tomorrow just. She's doing beautifully, just doing beautifully. But it was really rocky for a bunch of time. And so parents get so anxious that we need to Fix a thing. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. And to me, one of the most powerful things that my wife and I did for our daughter was to just say, you know, yeah, it's a mess. You know, your life is a mess, your room is mess. We're not even going to go there. Your grades, mess. It's all a mess. Right. And because it's really hard to have things go well when you're not feeling well emotionally. But one of the most powerful things that parents can do is to say to your kids, it's okay. It's okay if your life, your grades, your room is a mess. I love you even though you're messy and we think about unconditional love. What can be more powerful for any person, particularly young person, to say, you're right, in my book, you're in my book. You probably may want to fix these things. You may want to help them go better. If you want my help with you, I'll help you with that in any way that I can. But I'm not going to put my energy into acting like it's the biggest disaster if you're not getting the grades that you want now that you're going to end up van down by a river. Right. And I don't remember if I shared this the last time that I was on. You know, it was easier for me to have this energy with my daughter when she was having such a hard time because I had a we'll cut a bumpy childhood. My dad was an alcoholic, eventually drank himself to death. My mom was in and out of institutions. I spent three months in seventh grade in a pediatric psychiatric hospital. In a perfect world, I don't present like a person who lived in a psychiatric eye. If I do, just don't tell me.
- [08:28]
Ginny Urich
I don't know.
- [08:30]
Dr. William Stixrud
Now that you ask, yeah, he's crazy, right?
- [08:33]
Ned Johnson
You know, and my parents did the best that they could. I had really great teachers around me and nobody pulled their farmland act like this was a disaster. It was just as Bill so often intones, it's just part of your path. It's just part of your path. And so I'm deeply sensitive and sympathetic to an empathetic to parents where things are hard for their kids because they worry so much about the future. But one of the easiest ways to most powerful ways to help kids get back on their feet and back on their paths is to not be terrified all the time that if they fall off the path, they're falling into crevasse and they're doomed or if they have fallen off the path that life is, you know, good luck with all the scraps that are left over. All the good things are gone for you. Because it's just, it's not true. And it's certainly, certainly not helpful.
- [09:25]
Dr. William Stixrud
I remember very early in my career I was doing therapy with the family and the son was having eighth grade son was having a hard time. I was with the parents and the father broke into tears and he said, I just want him to feel good about himself. And after he stopped crying, I said, I do too. And I think we can more convincingly help him feel good about himself if we aren't worried sick, if we can kind of accept where he is right now, express confidence that things can get better, that I have to get better tomorrow, it's okay to be having a hard time now. I really felt my whole career that if our kids are struggling in some way, our most important work is usually on ourselves. Managing our own fear, managing our own anxiety, our own guilt, our own anger, whatever it is. Because when we can be a non anxious present, meaning not overly anxious and emotionally reactive, you can confidence and courage and we can support autonomy. When we're anxious, we're much more controlling. So as much as we can, if we can stay calm, we can remember this is my child's life. And the most important thing is that my child learned how to solve these problems with my support.
- [10:30]
Ginny Urich
So I want to say, I mean, this is such a good book because obviously communication is such a huge part of our life and especially, you know, with our kids, I mean, with everybody, it's a huge part of life. So if you feel like you didn't get that as a kid or you don't quite know what you're supposed to do, you say things like, practice the mantra, wait till I'm calm. Remind yourself that if you're mad and want to let your kids have it, or if you're very worried and want to voice your concern, it's time to zip your lips, go for a walk, meditate for a few minutes. If you wait, you'll deliver your, your message better into a more receptive audience. And then you have the actual verbiage where you say and I highlighted in my notes in purple. And there's so many examples throughout the book. I'm not going to talk about this now. I need some time to think it through. So just things that you can say. You could put it on a little note card, put it up in your kitchen, and you Talk about that. This matters because kids are catching the conflict and the anxiety. They're even measuring it in the kid's urine. They can see that these kids are stressed out. And I think with the Life360 in general. And this is a big thing, right? We're tracking our kids, but. And we don't. We don't track our kids. I like the Life 360. Like, it helps me find my keys or whatever, my important thing. But we don't track our kids. And I think that that must make them feel good. And you wrote, this is what I'm talking about. The book is talking about what should I say? But also kind of like, what am I conveying? What am I saying to my nonverbal messages? And you wrote, monitoring our kids makes them feel less safe by communicating messages such as, I don't trust you. The world is so dangerous. I need to know where you are at every minute. I'm so anxious, I couldn't go for 10 minutes without knowing where you are. You can't be safe without my supervision. But kids will feel safer and less anxious if we ease up on our monitoring. What an interesting book that you talk about what we're actually saying, but also what we're saying with our actions and with the way that we respond. So can you also elaborate then, on the school piece? We talked about this a little bit last time. It says schools often reinforce a scarcity mindset which communicates that the path to a successful adult life is extremely narrow and treacherous and that if kids ever fall off it, they're screwed. So this is something that you work with, Ned. You're working with test prep. So that's an interesting place to be, especially in this day and age.
- [12:56]
Ned Johnson
Well, it certainly is. You know, and one of the things that Bill and I both observed is that kids do better when they're less anxious. I don't know why this should be, like, revelatory, but I think so many parents and teachers and everyone. Kids aren't doing well. And their natural inclinations to come down on kids harder to try to motivate them. But if you know that a low sense of control is the most stressful thing that you can experience, and the major manifestation of anxiety is avoidance, then kids are going to avoid doing the things that might be in their own best interest, and they're also going to avoid people who might be able to help them because. But those people are so stressed out and they want nothing to do with it. And I probably specialize in tutoring anxious, affluent Children and anxious, affluent parents, for that matter. And so much of the work that I do is helping kids feel that it's safe, that there's a plan B. Right. That there's another path. You know, we can do this again, that this isn't the end of the world. Right. That you want to do well, but you don't have to do well. Because most mental health is shifting our thinking from I have to. Which is crazy and crazy, making do I want to. And so if you want to go to Princeton, hey, rock the orange for four years. Carry on. It's a fantastic place. But the idea that it's Yale or jail is just hogwash. But we have so many kids who grow up in places where they think that everything. All the good things in life will come from and through academic achievement. Academic achievement. Academic achievement. The chapter we'll get around to in a moment of talking with kids about the pursuit of happiness. When Bill was in Dallas and asking these young students, government folks like, what do you understand is necessary to be happy in life? And they said, if we get into a good enough college, everything else falls into place. And you think, holy smokes, it's so wrongheaded. There was just a beautiful article in the New York Times today about the work of Sonia Lyubomirski and Waldinger, the guy with the longitudinal study at Harvard, and just reminding us that the single best determinant of lifelong health, longevity and happiness is the quality of the relationships that we have. And so when we have young people who are stressed out all the time, partly with or because of the parents, well, that's one relationship that's fried. Right. The relationships with their teachers aren't collaborative so much as controlling. Bear, that one's gone. Right. And Bill was just interviewing a young woman who was, what, 19, 22, whatever, super bright, super academic, super depressed. Well, Bill, tell the story. What did you ask her? This is unbelievable.
- [15:30]
Dr. William Stixrud
I think it was a high school junior.
- [15:32]
Ginny Urich
Okay.
- [15:33]
Dr. William Stixrud
And I asked her a question on one of the tests I give. How are an enemy and a friend alike? And this girl's response was, they're both your competition.
- [15:42]
Ned Johnson
Right? Yeah.
- [15:43]
Dr. William Stixrud
And so when you see. When you see it, when you see your. Your friends as competition, as opposed to sources of support who love you, accept you, and they are preoccupied with beating you.
- [15:55]
Ned Johnson
Yeah.
- [15:55]
Dr. William Stixrud
It's a lot easier than if you see everything as a matter of net. A conversation just a couple of weeks ago with these high school students. And one said, kids in this school don't do anything for fun in High school, you know, it's all about college.
- [16:09]
Ned Johnson
And once we think of every single moment of our day through the lens of what would a college admissions person think about how we spend our time? You know, and people think about, you know, we really respect the work of Jonathan Haidt and the anxious generation and the phone based childhood, but from our, at least my, our perspective, we started way before a phone based childhood, a performance based childhood. Is that my best mom, did I, did I do my best? Can I do? And just that constant drip feed not of what matters to me, but am I meeting the expectations of other people? It's so unnecessary. And if really the foundational work of adolescence is developing independence and developing a sense of who they are and how they're going to contribute to the world, don't we want them to have an opportunity, spending more time but thinking about who am I and how do I want to contribute to the world as opposed to, oh my gosh, I only have a 97.5 GPA and Bill's got a 98. I mean, it's just for what? And we're squandering this priceless, irreplaceable period of adolescent identity formation and brain development for slightly better grades, for slightly more prestigious university. And I, look, I'm a guy who helps people get college choices, but I will shout from the rooftops every night, if necessary, that the most important outcome of high school and adolescence is not the university you get into, if you choose to go to university, but the brain that you develop and you carry into your adult life, because you don't really get a do over. I mean, you can make things better. But for kids who are anxious and depressed and bathe in their brains in a toxic stew of stress hormones for four or 14 years, well, let's go back to you. Let's spend more time outdoors.
- [17:59]
Ginny Urich
Yes, it's a good solution. So if you are relating, if you are relating to this, which I would imagine so many people are, then you get the book. This is one of those books that you leave on your shelf. So some books you get from the library and you read it once and you take the ideas. This is one that you have on your shelf. It's called what do you say? Because when you start to feel anxious and when you start to feel worried, and when you're dealing with your own anger, you're gonna go grab it because it's gonna give you some guidance on what to do. You wrote many of the kids we talked to for this book, and so many of Our highly anxious clients seem to feel that the main message they get from their parents and other adults is be very afraid. I have been doing a fair amount of speaking engagements the last few months which has led me to flying here and there and you may recall that I absolutely hate flying. 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Social media brings constant comparison, competition, and often cruelty, the effects of which are exacerbated by lack of sleep. So you're talking about moving toward this more non anxious presence. And then you say this, which I think this is huge when we are a non anxious presence. So if you're listening to this and you're like, how do I become a more non anxious presence? How do I make sure I'm not worried sick? This is the book that you're just going to kind of keep grabbing from your shelf. Or when we are a non anxious presence, we can help our kids develop brains that are capable of enjoying success. That's like a huge sentence. I don't know if I've heard anybody talk about that. You have to develop a brain that is capable of enjoying success. That's not just the default.
- [23:56]
Dr. William Stixrud
So we're struck by. Ned mentioned his high school kids in Houston a few years ago and this kid said, we think that if we get into good enough college, our life is just set. And I said, has anybody told you about the work of Lori Santos at Yale? The psychology professor at Yale who lived with the Yale undergraduates was struck by the fact that they got into Yale and that didn't do it. They're completely, they're miserable. They're so stressed and tired and pressured and competitive with each other that they just weren't happy. And we started thinking about all the people that we know who are incredibly successful financially or career wise who just aren't happy. They're kind of mean spirited, they're stingy and they're tired and they're stressed. And we thought what we really want is for kids to be able to enjoy being successful as opposed to how many successful people take their own lives. One of the things that strikes us is that particularly in adolescence, kids are sculpting the brains that they're going to have, as Ned said, carry into adulthood because the brain develops on a use it or lose it principle. And we just don't want young people's default state their brain to be tired and stressed and anxious and unhappy. And it's not that it dooms them for a lifelong anxiety and depression, but it does increase the risk significantly of kind of recurrent bouts of anxiety and depression. That's why we emphasize so strongly wanting kids to have healthy brains. We give a lecture to high school kids called create a life that you want, you're happy with. And what do you say we talk about the idea of living up to your potential? There's a chapter called what if I don't want to live up to my potential? From our point of view, living up to potential means creating a life that you're happy with.
- [25:39]
Ginny Urich
I want to read this. We can't tell you how many times we've heard parents say things like, and I love that you two both come from very different backgrounds. So you're hearing it everywhere. You know you're talking about that. Ned is this test prep guru and Bill is a neuropsychologist. So you've got these different paths of life and you're both hearing the same things. We can't tell you how many times we've heard parents say things like, kids need to be stressed. They need to be stressed if they're going to be successful. Or if my kid gets into a good enough college, all the stress and all the sleep deprivation will have been worth it. And you write, oi. Oh, I oy. That's just not so. Young people won't be capable of enjoying their success if they are chronically tired, stressed, anxious, or worse, depressed. No amount of achievement, money or prestige is worth the price of lifelong vulnerability to anxiety and depression. I mean, this is so good. And so you write, if we are a non anxious presence, this is what we communicate. This is what we say. We say this non verbally. The world is a pretty safe place. Things are going to work out okay. You're capable of managing your own life. Screwing up stuff is a necessary part of learning to do things well. There are thousands of ways to become successful in this world. What a book. Okay, it's called what do you say? I'm going to keep going because we don't have a ton of time together and it's such a good book and I have so many notes. But you have this chapter or section heading which I thought was so clever. May the power of no force be with you. Like, may the force be with you. This is the power of no force. So you have a whole bit in this book about nagging and scolding and trying to get to buy in and problem solving and supporting decision making. Because I think if you have no skills there, you think you just have to power your way through. So you talk about this Aesop's fable, the north wind and the sun be the sun. But can you talk about even just one of those where a parent would say, well, I have to control or they're not going to do what I need them to do.
- [27:37]
Ned Johnson
Oh, I mean, we were just at a local school a couple weeks ago talking about our book, the seven principles, principles we so kindly got to discuss with you. And the very last parent I spoke with, this mom steps up to ask for about signing a book and. And she said, my son said, you have to come to this talk now. The day before, Bill and I had lectured to the school about creating a life that you want, as Bill just mentioned. And so that night he came home and said, you got to go and hear these guys talk. And she's like, well, I'm where he live, 45 minutes away.
- [28:09]
Ginny Urich
The kids tells the parent, wow, that's really powerful.
- [28:13]
Ned Johnson
And then she's like, wow, it's a long drive and I'm really tired from work. And the next day. So you're going right, mom, you're going right, you're going right? I said, I said, well, that's wonderful. I said, if I may, do you know why he was so insistent that you come and listen to us? And she said, oh, yeah, because all I do is nag. I said, well, great. I said, I said, does it work? Oh, no, not at all. But I keep, but I keep doing it. I said, well, if it does, keep at it. But we nag because a low sense of control is so stressful for us and we don't know what else to do often. And it's what we grew up on. And so, you know, it's hard for us to support autonomy. It's hard for us to be non anxious when we feel low sense of control. And so we nag just thinking that this will make things better and if it worked, that'd be great. But it doesn't. There's actually one of our favorite cartoons. There's this, this, this daddy's got these two kids by the nape of the neck and he's like, now listen up, boys, and listen up good. I'm only going to say this a million times, right? And we just, we just studied on some, stumbled on some research about nagging where they put kids in FMRI and they looked at their brain activation and they played a clip of their mom saying, shouldn't you be and fill in the blank. Could be anything. And looked at the brain activation. Decrease in the activation of the prefrontal cortex, all those executive functions, right? Increase in the amygdala and the anger centers of the brain and decrease in a part of the brain that allows you to have an empathetic view of another person's perspective. It's stressful to feel low sense control. And so a huge part of this book, as you know, Ginny, is we really just want to give people words that we have tried over and over and over and know that they're effective because parents aren't trying to be ineffective with their kids, right. And be annoyed and oh dad, you don't know who wants to do that. And all we want to do is say we understand your energy. May we suggest these tools, these other words that may be more effective. Effective because they're less coercive. And when they're less coercive, you don't get the stress response and you're way more likely to get buy in and you just say things instead of. You know. Every time when I would lecture at what I'd be to school, a parent would come up to me and say I've been telling my kids this and this and this and this and this is. Right? Right. And the advice was almost always great. These are capable, loving parents. It was the how. And so every time a parent wanted me to like justify their perspective, I, I simply say, may I offer you a suggestion? And they sort of sat back and they said okay. And I said just say to your kid, may I offer you a suggestion? Right. And if they say no, then you step away or you shove it down the throat either way, but you just say okay, well if you change your mind, I got an idea on that, you know, I'd love to run it by you if you, if you think it'd be helpful. And my daughter, who I mentioned before is, is, is brilliant, brilliant, at least 20 IQ points on me, but has the rigidity that's very typical of autistic people. And so I, by the time she was four, I figured out that one, she was way too clever, I was never going to outsmart her, and two, she was inflexible, that I wasn't going to win an argument. So I gave up all hope and every wish of having an argument and I just would say, hey, can I tell you my thoughts on. Nope. Okay, if you change your mind, let me know. And it was so effective because she felt like she always knew that I was there to offer advice if she wanted it, but she was never going to be forced down her throat. And so we just, we, we offer that up for whatever it's worth.
- [31:42]
Ginny Urich
I have used this stuff already with my own kids. We have five kids, ages 8 to 16. We're in the I want to date stage of life. And so it's like the non controlling.
- [31:52]
Ned Johnson
Like let's talk eight year old dating, that's a lot.
- [31:57]
Ginny Urich
But you have these conversations and we really use the verbiage from the book which is, I mean you're 16 and you know, 15, I mean you're so close to adulthood. And we use the Language in the book. These are some thoughts that we have. But ultimately it's your decision. This is your responsibility. You know, that type of thing. Like whose responsibility is it? Whose life is it? It's such a good book. It's called what do you say you talk about even these baskets, which is like, what's worth the meltdown? If it's safety related, like their bike helmet. Yes.
- [32:25]
Ned Johnson
You know, if it's the child's meltdown or the parents meltdown.
- [32:28]
Ginny Urich
Yeah. What's worth it? But then you say there are some issues that are not worth it, like making the bed and the bedroom that might be a mess and that's going to drive you to the brink. But you're like, that's basket three. So don't nag. Kids come to depend on nagging. Don't tell them the same thing over and over again. Every time we ineffectually tell a kid something, it weakens our ability to communicate with them and it conveys worry, even if the questions themselves don't. So just so many interesting things in here. And then I think it also goes to this, this sort of parallel situation where there is a lot of fear about failure to launch. So you wrote, if you're worried about your kid becoming an adult slacker, which I think that's part of it, part of the nagging, part of the fear you wrote. We have two suggestions. First, ask yourself, if this was to happen, could you handle it? Of course you could. Second, remind yourself that it is extremely unlikely that your kid will always be undermotivated. One of the most important things to share with your son or daughter is that you're not worried about them. So can you talk just a little bit about why we're so afraid of that? Are there ways we can safeguard against it? And you also include, which we've never talked on the show, marijuana use, even short term, that's a lot.
- [33:44]
Dr. William Stixrud
Yeah, yeah. So my feeling is that, and I see a lot of. Because I'm a neuropsychologist, I see a lot of kids who have challenges, including challenges that can make it harder to really launch and be fully independent. And I ask parents to make peace with the possibility that the kid might not be independent. I mean, that's part of their path. Okay. And we can rail against it or we can just kind of deal with it and accept it and see that it's as part of our path as adults. But also my experience is that if you're going to be independent, you have to have a sense that this is your own life that says control, that Ned and I emphasize in all three of our books, having the sense that this is my life and I'm going to get out of it what I put into it. And so our work still is to not try to force, not try to nag and constantly think that somehow we tell them the 300th time. Now I see what you're saying. Why did you tell me louder last time? It just doesn't work like that. So we take that consultant kind of point of view that we offer help and advice. We don't try to force it, that we encourage kids to make their own decisions and to learn from those decisions and to solve their own problems. It's not easy, but it's a lot easier than thinking that somehow we're supposed to be able to make them turn into independent adults. We can't.
- [35:03]
Ned Johnson
Okay, can I add to that?
- [35:04]
Dr. William Stixrud
Yeah, please.
- [35:05]
Ned Johnson
You know, the tying that back to the conversation we had a moment ago about a non anxious presence. We think about that in sort of two ways as parents, as caregivers. One is things where we work on our own nervous systems of getting enough sleep, of meditating, of time outdoors, of time with friends, of making time for laughter to kind of bring our own nervous system down so we can be more of a stress sponge with our kids rather than a source of stress on them, but also cognitive processes of talking back against our own fears, our own negative thinking, you know, and reframing. And the thing about this is those patterns, they can become habits, practices. That's why we wrote, wrote our new book, the seven seven Principles for his in Self Driven Child. And this, you're going to love this. I struggle to tell the story without bursting into tears. My 23 year old is home from college, graduated college and he's, you know, at home before he goes off to graduate school next fall. And we were out for a long drive in a car to go pick up some piece of furniture and we were driving back and he's a really thoughtful kid and he spends a lot of time thinking about his own thinking. And we were talking about how great metacognition is and yada yada. And then was was talking about, you know, being the ability to sort of imagine future outcomes and even when they're hard, imagine how you would handle them. And I started riffing on how when my son, I can't remember they shared this before. My son had a brain tumor after his first year of college. And I said one of the things that I had to do was to project in the future and contemplate the possibility that this didn't turn out well, that you died or you ended up being really damaged and not really the same person that you are. And how would I handle that? And how can I make peace with that without, like, my life completely falling apart? Because, you know, I still have Katie or your sister. I have Mom. I have the world. You know, I have my life. I mean, how would I. And by kind of living in that hard. Those hard feelings and making peace and feeling confident that I could handle that were that to come, it made it so much easier for me to be more courageous as we walk this path as a family. With your illness. Here's the thing. He then turns to me and said, I did the exact same thing. And I said, oh. And he said, yeah, I spend time thinking about what happens if I die, if I don't make it. And he said. And he said. And I told myself, well, I've had a wonderful life.
- [37:44]
Dr. William Stixrud
Yeah.
- [37:46]
Ned Johnson
And we've had a few conversations like that that are just, just, I mean, just. I'm in tears now, as you can see. It just. I mean, it just drops me to my knees. And so much of it I credit with when he was in fifth grade and just the dreamiest, most ADHD little boy. And we were as a family, kind of maybe not maybe on him a little bit about homework. And so we know, we. We just, as Bill said, we, we can't do this. We have to move in the direction of being consultant where we offer help and we offer advice and we make it really clear that we will help you every way that we can. But this is your school, this is your homework, because this is your life. And I'm convinced that only by creating the space of saying, hey, do you want help with that? No, I got it. Great. Do we create the space that these much more important things come to the fore where if I'd been on his tail for the last 14 years, no, that'll have the conversation with someone else.
- [38:43]
Ginny Urich
And the fact that he had a wonderful life. I mean, that. That's sort of the point of the whole book, is that we're like grabbing Peter to pay Paul. It's like we're allowing our kids to be anxious and stress and have these awful childhoods for the sake of this middle class script that life is about what college you get into and you say, there's so many paths to success. And I liked what you said about making them independent adults. Maybe that is the biggest change is that in generations gone by. Nobody saw that as their job. Parents didn't see it as their. I don't think my parents saw that as their job to make me independent. I think they just let me live my life. And so you wrote as parents. I thought this was so big. Actually, this is so big. This is probably like one of the keys to the whole book. As parents, we want to rescue our kids. It's in our wiring. And yet it's in their wiring that they need to rescue themselves. We're both wired for it. And so what we have to do you write sit on our hands. You have to sit on your hands and let them solve their own problems. Because when we rescue kids, they can't reflect on the experience. Their brain doesn't learn that they can handle stressful experiences and brains develop according to how they are used. So you start talking about how we have to train their brains to expect success instead of just relying on this. If we get into a good enough college, everything is going to be okay. You wrote, depression and hopelessness have no respect for accomplishment. As the temps start rising, I feel that familiar urge to refresh my closet. But I'm not wasting money on pieces I'll only wear once or for just one season. Quince changes that their clothes are timeless, lightweight and far more elevated than anything else. At this price, they have 100 European linen shorts and dresses from $30 Luxe Swimwear, Italian leather platform sandals, and so much more. The best part? 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I remember as a kid working really hard to save my money. My parents instilled that I should save half of any money I received as a gift or made. When I started working as a teenager, it was so ingrained in me that when I hit adulthood, it just carried over. That's why I'm so glad. Today's episode is sponsored by Acorns Early. Acorns early is a smart money app and debit card for kids that helps them learn the value of money. What's really cool is it has a chores tracker that helps kids learn the value of a dollar. Just set up chores in the app, set a payment amount, and tick the chore off when it's done. Acorns early lets parents pay allowances automatically. If you'd like, no more rummaging around for cash. Kids can spend what they earn with their very own debit card. They'll love the new sense of independence and getting to choose from 35 plus customizable card designs. I really love that Acorns early helps kids turn saving into a habit. 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- [43:44]
Dr. William Stixrud
The one second grader I tested, a second grade girl And I said as part of my interview, I said, are there things you worry about? So I worry about my grades because I know that they affect your college. And I'm thinking, oh my gosh, she's in second grade. It got better because she said, I want to go to a good college like American University because they have an Elevation Burger and I love their fries. So it wasn't as bad as I thought initially.
- [44:05]
Ned Johnson
They are good fries.
- [44:06]
Ginny Urich
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it matters though, to have the conversations. I mean, I don't, honestly, I don't really think I would have talked to my kids about happiness. I wouldn't have have thought to do that. I mean, it's just you think about, well, what's your plan? And those are the things you think about. So how should that conversation go? Or I mean, it probably should be a bunch of conversations.
- [44:27]
Dr. William Stixrud
I just think it's great when parents, when parents read a book to say, I read something really interesting, can I tell you about it and like that and say, I used to think that grades and your income and your promotion make you much happier than they actually do. It turns out we aren't really very good predictors of what make us happy. And it turns out that you're happier if you give something away than if you get something. You're happier if you appreciate what you have rather than striving to get what you don't have. There's just things like that that I just realized in my own life that most important things for me that really make me happy are you, my wife, my friends, it's a relationship, stuff like that. And so we have some kind of exercises of talking through with kids. We use Martin Seligman, the founder of positive psychology. His model of what research suggests characterizes people who are happy and have a high sense of well being. The acronym that he uses to summarize is perma. It's positive emotion, deep active engagement that flow experience its relationships, its meaning. Having feeling like things are meaningful and accomplishment. And accomplishment is not, not trivial. It's just that it's a relatively small part of this formula for what contributes to a well lived life.
- [45:46]
Ginny Urich
All right, one more time. P is positive.
- [45:49]
Dr. William Stixrud
Positive emotion. Positive emotion.
- [45:51]
Ginny Urich
Positive emotion.
- [45:52]
Dr. William Stixrud
And there's some genetic constraints on there. There's some people who are just born glass half empty and half glass half full. But genetic constraints are not nearly what they are for ADHD or autism. They're like, you know, maybe there's 30, 30, 35% genetic adherence and there's a lot we can do to raise our positive emotion. So the E is engagement. It's that deep, that feeling of I'm so invested in something that I can work at it for two hours. It seems like 15 minutes went by. It could be things maybe if we're passionate about our work, it can be pastimes, it can be, it could be sports, it could be art, it can be music. Things that give us that flow experience. The, the R is relationships and just talking to kids about how important your relationships are to you. We hear about parents telling kids, why do you spend so much time with your friends? They're going to get you into college. Yeah, yeah. It just, you know, my friends are my competition. Just letting them know how much I value you, how important, how important you are for my happiness and well being.
- [46:55]
Ned Johnson
Yeah. Susie's not screwing around. She's at home doing homework.
- [46:57]
Dr. William Stixrud
That's right. Yeah. The M is meaning so part of the reason that kids, young people are so unhappy that the majority of the majority of high school kids say, my predominantly feelings in school are I'm tired, I'm stressed, and I'm bored. Because so much of what they do is just chop them through hoops. It's not meaningful to them. And in schools, if schools try to think about, well, how do we make this work more meaningful, how do we make the development, the academic development meaningful to them? Done, it would change everything. And the A is achievement.
- [47:29]
Ned Johnson
And one thing I would add to that, I mean, back to that idea that children now have a performance based childhood where extracurricular activities that used to be a source of stress relief from academic pressures and whatever else are now another source of pressure. Because you don't play soccer because soccer is fun. You get to be with your friends. You're like, but you need to do it for college. Right. I was talking with a friend who's a college counselor and saying, you know, kids are doing community service. I really want them to focus and not just do a bunch of things. Don't just go and help a bunch of people. Make sure you do it in a way that's really clear, you know, when it shows up on a college application. And so from my perspective, we've taken almost every possible childhood activity and weaponized it and monetized it so that, you know, your kids really get, oh, sign them up for an art class as opposed to, you know, going to local store and just buying them all the cranks the world and let them have at it. You know, we're huge fans of Peter Graves, probably the country's foremost authority on play, who makes the point. We should be reminded that play by definition is not adult directed. But almost everything from age three on, right, it's adult directed. I mean, any kid who plays soccer, I mean, it's like dying the time. The dinosaurs, the kids would just go out and pitch together a game, you know, in their, in the someone's backyard or a local field or whatever, without adult supervision, right. They go, wait, that's, you know, we. That's not going to get them into college. Right. Or all they, or all they do is spend their time arguing. Well, spending time arguing is a huge way to develop interpersonal skills and collaborative collaboration. Right. You know, when we would play pickup football and the kind of local Tufts would want to stack the team, so it was the big guys against the little guys, and we just say, all right, fine, we're not playing. That was a pretty effective way, you know, to learn how to make peace with people where you, you have asymmetrical force. Right. And. But when you, when you have, you know, some tall person, you know, grown up with a clipboard and a whistle, organized and everything, we deprive kids of those incredibly powerful opportunities, you know, one to engage more deeply, but to develop all these 21st century skills that we ostensibly try to teach them in school when we've deprived them of that in their own daily experience.
- [49:43]
Ginny Urich
This perma is really interesting because I feel like this 1000 hours outside journey kind of checks all the boxes. Definitely feel pretty positive when you're outside side.
- [49:53]
Ned Johnson
Yeah.
- [49:53]
Ginny Urich
And you do talk about optimism. I liked this part of the book and I have notes. Optimism can be learned. A talent for looking on the bright side can be cultivated. And when it is, optimism can cut teenage depression in half. So positive emotion experiences or being engaged, I mean, you know, I have so many memories of my kids just they're just engaged. Whatever they're doing outside, they're digging, they're building. You know, they're. They're making a day. Dandelion crown, whatever that is. Relationship. Obviously you're building your relationship. Your screens aren't there, you're having conversations, you're around the bonfire. It's meaningful. And if you're keeping track of it, it's a little bit of an achievement. Yeah, it's a little bit of like, hey, we set aside that time that is away from screens. And I just love this question. Don't we want our children to be happy as kids and adolescents, not just as adults? And so talking about your son, Ned, you know, it's like, we. We're not guaranteed tomorrow. And so to have a child that's in their early 20s and say, I've had a wonderful life is probably pretty rare these days and a really huge testament to parenting. And I think it's just something for all of us to make sure that we remember now matters. Their experience now matters.
- [51:06]
Dr. William Stixrud
One of the educators we work with, Jenny, uses the phrase the relentless preparation for the future. You're both saying the child and adolescents are these. You can't get them back. People say, well, our purpose isn't make sure the kids are happy all the time. And we agree that life naturally has challenges and stresses and difficulties, and we want kids who experience those and develop the confidence that they can deal with them. But ideally, that moves in the direction of being happy, in a good mood most of the time that we know that happiness at any. At any age has all kinds of benefits. Happier people just do better than people who aren't happy. And it's not. It's not the fault. People who have genetically just have. Have more. More kinds of depression. It's just saying that being happy is a good thing. And it doesn't mean that being happy all the time, you don't deal with hard things.
- [52:02]
Ginny Urich
It's such a good book I keep. Like, every time you say something, I'm like, oh. And that reminds me of that part in the book you said, happiness began begets success, which I think most people would think the opposite. Happiness begets success, not success begets happiness. But you had this part where you talked about radical acceptance. Radical acceptance suggests the best thing you can do is make peace with what is right now, because we can't predict the future. And for all we know, this is huge. What seems like a disaster can lead to opportunity. And I think most people have had times in their life where they can look back and say, that happened. For me, that seemed like a disaster, but it led to opportunity. And I ended up buying. I try and buy, like, I limit myself because every book references other books. So I'm like, I'll let myself pick one. And I picked Loving what Is by Katie Byron. So that was one of the ones that you suggested in this book. But this thought of maybe the things that are going. I mean, you could teach your kids that the things that seem like they're really a hard thing, maybe, maybe in the end it will turn around. So. So it's such a good book. Teaching optimism, practicing gratitude as a strategy. Okay, I want to hit one more. We're near the end Here I thought this was really important. There's this big thing about FOMO and screens. You know, obviously it's everywhere because someone is doing something and you know that they're doing it and you are not invited. There's that part, but there's also the FOMO of maybe not having the screens at all. So like, you know, we're talking about the, you know, the 9 and 10 year olds are really feeling the pressure because all these other 9 and 10 year olds have a phone. They're missing out, they're really upset about it. And I thought this was an interesting take. A huge part of a healthy life involves making choices about what not to do. I thought, oh, that actually kind of goes hand in hand that, you know, as you're making those decisions about screens for your family, that you can start to be specifically, explicitly teaching that part of a good life is deciding what we are going to do, but also what we're not going to do. I like that.
- [54:03]
Ned Johnson
Yeah. I mean it's a great, it's a great point. I mean, partly. What's the movie? Everywhere all at once, you know, you can't be everywhere all at once. And of course there, of course there are trade offs, you know, so the children, of course, who want those screens, they're picturing this is going to be the most amazing thing in the world. But they don't know. I mean, one, they don't know because they don't have them yet. But they also don't really know what they're giving up. We have a chapter in part of that, part of that chapter. And then also in our second book is talking about the neurological differences in neurotransmitters between happiness and pleasure. And this is where people are so terrible at predicting what will make them happy. Because when they think about things will make them happy, what they're really thinking typically is about things that will give them pleasure. Because just the thought of a shiny new car or our new phone or scoring a goal, whatever, jacks up dopamine because dopamine is released in the anticipation of rewards. So every time your phone texts, this could be something really good, and you get this burst of dopamine, but it's fleeting. I mean, Bill and I were giving a lecture on gratitude, which is part of positive, of the positive emotions. Just that weekend we got a note from friends that our book the Self Driven Child was referenced in the new Bridget Jones movie Mad about the Boy. So super excited. So, Bill, basically it was super funny. It was totally rush. Hey, we're in a movie, we're like in this zeitgeist. He said, but it won't last. It won't last because it's dopamine. Pleasure is.
- [55:30]
Dr. William Stixrud
And then. And the next morning. Yeah, the next morning I was. I was thinking. I wasn't thinking about that. I was thinking about all the other stuff I gotta do. You know, just that idea that we think that this thing, that the things being this big bring this big rush or things make us happy, and they bring this pleasure. Pleasure by definition is momentary. It's fleeting. And it's a different. Ned says, a different neurochemistry.
- [55:55]
Ned Johnson
And where happiness. Exactly. Where happiness is rooted in serotonin. Right? So it's just reading this article in the Times about the longitudinal study out of Harvard about those guys, they started in the 30s and they've done this for almost 100 years now, right? And the single strongest predictor of people's happiness was the quality of their relationship. Relationships, and specifically for men, was how healthy they were doing at age 70 and 80. Was the single best predictor was how happy of a marriage did they have at age 50? Not were they married, but was it a happy marriage? Because you reflect back, I mean, I see all these movies of, you know, people who are 80, you know, this, you know, old couple who are still walking down the lane, hand in hand. God, that's what I want for my life, you know, that's what I want with my wife. And, you know, it's not the lust that we had when we were 22 years old and first rolling around together. It's a different. And that's dopamine and Deba, but it's serotonin in just the sense that every day I get to go home to this lovely person and spend my time together. And it's not as lusty as it was, but my God, is it wonderful. And we would should want this. And we. And it's not just with those romantic relationships with longtime friends, Right? And you just feel so at peace with them. And so I get the seduction of cell phones, but the experience that your children have around the campfire with their dandelion crowns, making s' mores. Oh, that's something they will return to over and over and over, like in. In the movie Inside out, that those are core memories. And every time they reflect on it, more serotonin, more happiness for the rest of their lives.
- [57:28]
Ginny Urich
Wow. Wow, this is such a big thing. A huge part of a healthy life, a happy life, involves making choices about what not to do. Research is very clear that kids need to play in self directed ways. Screen time too often replaces this process. Dr. Peter Gray, I mean a favorite of mine, Too Free to learn, Changed my Life, says that children need less time in school and more time playing. You also talk about that there's a risk for addiction. It's not every kid, but it's something like 10%, which is pretty high. But I think the point here, and this is what helped me learn, is that when we are feeling so pressured to give our kid the phone that we are mistaking pleasure for happiness and what type of a message that we're sending. And you even talked about materialism. You said that we have to. This book is so good, good. There is so much in here, I can't even find it in my notes. But you're talking about like you have to communicate against materialism. You have to make sure that you, you have to actively fight it, Actively fight materialism. You have in here just for everyone listening. You talk about high achieving families. You talk about the language of healthy expectations. We didn't get to that, but that's a really big deal. What should the expectations be? You talk about why now. You talk about the importance of parents, the importance of rituals. You say there's 168 hours in a week. So can we spend one, one on one with, you know, our kids? Even if you've got four or five, probably you can. So I just, I cannot recommend it more highly. I'm so glad that we've connected. I loved the workbook and self driven child and what do you say? How to talk with kids to build motivation, stress tolerance and a happy home. It's one you want on yourself so you can refer back to it constantly. I mean is there is so much material in here that will help you be a better parent and will help to set your kids up for success down the road. Dr. Bill and Ned, thank you so, so much for coming back.
- [59:16]
Ned Johnson
Thank you so much. You are so fun to talk to. It's clear that you're not a person who spends 100 hours a week in a cubicle looking at spreadsheets.
- [59:27]
Dr. William Stixrud
You're a force of nature. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [59:31]
Ginny Urich
That's like, maybe that's the best compliment I've ever gotten. Ned. It's clear that you don't spend a hundred hours looking at spreadsheets. I don't know, no one's ever said that to me before. So thank you. I, I feel like I could talk to you all day, all week. I, I love the Content in these books and I feel like it's not talked about enough. So like a mom's group could grab any of your books and the workbook has got a bunch of questions you can go through. But a mom's group or, you know, parents in their neighborhood for the summer, you grab one of these and have this be what you talk about all summer long. I think people will get from this conversation that these are all conversation topics too. So it works really well with the book called what do you say? It's going to give you a lot of food for thought. And I love that. I love that about what you write and I love that you're talking about these things that we really need. So thanks. And hopefully we get to cross paths again.
- [60:19]
Ned Johnson
I hope so. It's such a joy.
- [60:24]
Dr. William Stixrud
Agreed.
- [60:25]
Ginny Urich
All right. We did it. It was a wonderful. Oh God, you are so good.
- [60:31]
Ned Johnson
Your kids must have the most fun time. You might. I did. I have an image of what your household is and it's.
- [60:36]
Ginny Urich
It's messy.
- [60:38]
Ned Johnson
I was just gonna. No, I was gonna. A thousand years ago. Ann Landers. Have you ever read Ann Landers? Yeah, had. There was in this thing and it was. It printed out. It basically said my house will be tidy when. And basically when there, when there are no children to hug, when there are no toys to pick up. You know, basically when all the life of these, these people, when it's out of my life, then my house will be. Will be clean, you know, but until then. Oh my gosh, why would you bother?
- [61:04]
Dr. William Stixrud
The last couple months, my daughter and her husband and her three children have been living with us. And it's just they're. They're 11, 9 and 6 and. Jesus, we're just kind of. It took about two weeks we said because they're moving to. They're getting a new house. We would have known how wonderful it is because we would just got to get a bigger house and all live together.
- [61:27]
Ginny Urich
So a lot about you though, I think because a lot of people can't. They don't make it work or I know people that have had to do it for emergency situations and like everyone is miserable. And I always think, gosh, it's such like a once in a lifetime opportunity to have that multi generational living. So I think big props to you, Bill, for making it work and having that attitude toward that. What a cool thing. And those grandkids are always going to remember that.
- [61:52]
Ned Johnson
Well, it makes a big difference that Bill, from my perspective, that Bill and his wife star both are. Are so devoted to transcendental meditation that they have a twice daily ritual to pull stress out of their nervous system, which allows them to pull stress out of the nervous systems with people around them. You know, And I need to learn more about that. Oh, my gosh. I mean, Bill was talking. He said. He said his kids always said. What? Always thought it was a little kooky with the meditation thing, but his son said. But the one thing I always remember is how peaceful our home was.
- [62:23]
Ginny Urich
Wow.
- [62:23]
Ned Johnson
And you have so many people who never. They don't. That's. That's not what home is.
- [62:27]
Dr. William Stixrud
Wow.
- [62:28]
Ginny Urich
Wow. That's powerful. Okay, whenever you have an hour, I'll take it.
- [62:32]
Ned Johnson
Anytime, anytime, anytime.
- [62:35]
Ginny Urich
Hi, Zoe Saldana. Welcome to T Mobile.
- [62:37]
Ned Johnson
Here's your new iPhone 16 Pro on us. Thanks.
- [62:40]
Ginny Urich
And here's my old phone to trade. You don't need a trade in.
- [62:43]
Ned Johnson
When you switch to T mobile. We'll give you a new iPhone 16 Pro. Plus we'll help you pay off your old Phone up to 800 bucks and you still get to keep it.
- [62:50]
Ginny Urich
There's always a trade in. Not right now.
- [62:52]
Ned Johnson
@ T Mobile.
- [62:53]
Ginny Urich
I feel like I have to give you something in return for karma. That's okay. I don't really have much in my purse.
- [62:58]
Ned Johnson
Oh, let's see.
- [62:59]
Ginny Urich
Hand sanitizer. It's lavender.
- [63:01]
Ned Johnson
I'm good. Seriously. Let me check this pocket.
- [63:04]
Ginny Urich
Oh, mints.
- [63:05]
Ned Johnson
Really, I'm fine.
- [63:06]
Ginny Urich
Oh, I have rain reasons.
- [63:07]
Dr. William Stixrud
I'm a mom.
- [63:08]
Ginny Urich
Wait, wait one sec. I've got cupcakes in the car.
- [63:10]
Ned Johnson
It's our best iPhone offer ever. Switch to T Mobile. Get a new iPhone 16 Pro with Apple intelligence on us. No trade in needed. We'll even pay off your Phone up to 800 bucks with 24 monthly bill credits. New line 100 plus a month on experience beyond Finance Agreement 999.99 and qualifying.
- [63:27]
Ginny Urich
Ported for well qualified plus tax and 10 connection charge. Payout via virtual prepaid card below 15 days.
- [63:32]
Ned Johnson
Credits in and balance due.
- [63:33]
Ginny Urich
If you pay off earlier, Cancel See.
- [63:34]
Ned Johnson
T mobile.com hi Zoe Saldana.
- [63:37]
Ginny Urich
Welcome to T Mobile.
- [63:37]
Ned Johnson
Here's your new iPhone 16 Pro on us. Thanks.
- [63:40]
Ginny Urich
And here's my old phone to trade in. You don't need a trade in.
- [63:43]
Ned Johnson
When you switch to T mobile. We'll give you a new iPhone 16 Pro plus we'll help you pay off.
- [63:47]
Ginny Urich
Your old Phone up to 800 bucks.
- [63:49]
Ned Johnson
And you still get to keep it.
- [63:51]
Ginny Urich
There's always a trade in. Not right now.
- [63:53]
Ned Johnson
@ T Mobile.
- [63:53]
Ginny Urich
I feel like I have to give you something in return. For karma.
- [63:56]
Ned Johnson
That's okay.
- [63:57]
Ginny Urich
I don't really have much.
- [63:58]
Ned Johnson
I'm. My purse. Oh, let's see.
- [64:00]
Ginny Urich
Hand sanitizer. It's lavender.
- [64:01]
Ned Johnson
I'm good. Seriously. Let me check this pocket.
- [64:04]
Ginny Urich
Oh, mints.
- [64:05]
Ned Johnson
Really, I'm fine.
- [64:06]
Ginny Urich
Oh, I have raisins.
- [64:07]
Dr. William Stixrud
I'm a mom.
- [64:08]
Ginny Urich
Wait, wait one sec. I've got cupcakes in the car.
- [64:11]
Ned Johnson
It's our best iPhone offer ever. Switch to T Mobile. Get a new iPhone 16 Pro with Apple intelligence on us. No trade in needed. We'll even pay off your Phone up to 800 bucks with 24 monthly bill credits. New lines, $100 plus a month on.
- [64:25]
Ginny Urich
Experience beyond finance agreement.
- [64:26]
Ned Johnson
$999.99 and qualifying.
- [64:27]
Ginny Urich
Ported for well qualified, plus tax and $10 connection charge.
- [64:30]
Ned Johnson
Payout via virtual prepaid card.
- [64:31]
Ginny Urich
Allow 15 days credits and balance due if you pay off early or cancel.
- [64:34]
Ned Johnson
See T mobile dot com.