1KHO 509: Dry Eye, Blinking Problems, and Digital Overuse: What You Need to Know (And Do) | Clare Morell, The Tech Exit

Summary

Podcast Summary: The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast, Episode 1KHO 509

Title: Dry Eye, Blinking Problems, and Digital Overuse: What You Need to Know (And Do)
Host: Ginny Urch, Founder of 1000 Hours Outside
Guest: Claire Morell, Author of The Tech Exit
Release Date: June 24, 2025

---

Introduction

In the inaugural episode of The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast, hosted by Ginny Urch, she welcomes Claire Morell, the author of the recently released book, The Tech Exit: A Practical Guide to Freeing Kids and Teens From Smartphones. The episode delves into the alarming effects of digital overuse on children, particularly focusing on issues like dry eye, blinking problems, and broader developmental concerns.

The Dry Eye Epidemic in Children

[00:47] Ginny Urch: Introduces Claire Morell and her book, highlighting the critical topic of dry eye in children caused by excessive screen time.

[01:12] Claire Morell:
"This was actually the most shocking piece of research I came across. An ophthalmologist reported seeing eight and nine-year-olds with chronic dry eye, a condition typically seen in much older adults."

Claire explains that prolonged screen use disrupts the natural blinking pattern in children, leading to the drying up of oil glands in the eyes. This condition necessitates lifelong management, including the need for external eye lubricants to prevent serious complications like blindness.

[02:33] Claire Morell:
"They are seeing an epidemic of dry eye because of screens. It's affecting all ages, but young people should have zero dry eye symptoms."

Neurological Effects of Screen Overuse

The conversation shifts to the neurological implications of screen time. Claire shares insights from her research, suggesting that screens may be rewiring children's brains to blink less frequently, exacerbating the dry eye issue.

[03:39] Claire Morell:
"The screen's actually rewiring the brain to not blink. There's something neurological happening that affects the eye not blinking as often as it should."

This neurological impact extends beyond physical symptoms, influencing children's ability to think independently and creatively.

Challenges in Managing Screen Time

[07:40] Ginny Urch: Discusses the broader ramifications of screen overuse, emphasizing the lifelong impacts on creativity, engagement, and physical health.

[08:16] Claire Morell:
"Screen time limits aren't working out. Both research and anecdotal evidence show that these limits create constant battles between parents and children."

Parents face immense challenges as screen technologies are designed to be highly addictive, making it difficult to control usage through mere time restrictions.

Social Impacts and Peer Pressure

The episode highlights the social pressures parents experience when attempting to limit their children's screen time. Claire points out that beyond peer pressure from other children, parents also face judgments from fellow parents who may perceive restrictions as ineffective parenting.

[07:55] Ginny Urch:
"There's peer pressure from other parents who might think you're not a good parent because you don't allow your child to have a smartphone."

Tech Exit Strategies and Practical Solutions

Claire introduces the concept of a "Tech Exit," a strategic approach to reducing and eventually eliminating screen time for children. She compares it to potty training—initially challenging but rewarding in the long term.

[19:07] Claire Morell:
"Tech exit is like potty training. It requires short-term investment and effort but offers long-term benefits such as increased creativity, independence, and problem-solving skills."

Key Strategies Discussed:

• Freedom Basket: A designated place where family members leave their phones during meal times or family gatherings to foster real-life interactions.

  [36:03] Claire Morell:
  "Freedom basket is a simple yet powerful way to encourage family members to engage without the constant distraction of smartphones."

• Analog Tools: Utilizing paper calendars and physical lists to organize family activities, reducing the dependency on digital devices.

  [39:15] Claire Morell:
  "Using analog options like a big desk calendar can help bring the family together and reduce the mental distractions caused by smartphones."

• Parental Involvement: Actively participating in children's activities and replacing screen time with engaging, hands-on experiences.

  [14:05] Ginny Urch:
  "At first, the parent takes on the brunt of the effort, but over time, children learn to play independently, making the parent's role easier."

Role of Schools and Community

The discussion extends to the role of educational institutions and community organizations in supporting a tech-free environment for children. Claire shares inspiring examples of schools implementing strict social media-free policies, leading to improved student behavior and stronger in-person relationships.

[43:06] Claire Morell:
"Schools can step up by providing extracurricular activities that engage students physically and socially, reducing their reliance on screens."

Case Study: A principal at a school conducted an experiment by having students and parents pledge to avoid social media. The results were remarkable, with younger students showing improved in-person interactions and older students acknowledging the benefits of reduced technology use.

Overcoming Peer and Institutional Barriers

Claire emphasizes the importance of collective action, encouraging parents to collaborate with schools, youth groups, and community organizations to create a supportive environment for reducing screen time.

[53:16] Claire Morell:
"It's never too late to reverse course. Many families started with high screen usage and transitioned to a tech-free lifestyle, resulting in stronger family and sibling relationships."

Conclusion and Personal Reflections

In the closing segments, Claire shares a cherished childhood memory of family hikes in Vermont, illustrating the profound impact of outdoor activities on personal growth and family bonding.

[60:20] Claire Morell:
"A family hike on my birthday was one of my favorite memories. It was about the journey, talking, playing games, and enjoying nature together without any digital distractions."

[62:37] Ginny Urch:
"The Tech Exit provides numerous practical solutions that are low-cost yet highly effective in fostering meaningful relationships and healthy development for children."

Key Takeaways

• Health Impacts: Excessive screen time can lead to serious physical issues like dry eye and long-term neurological changes.

• Developmental Concerns: Reduced independent thinking and creativity due to constant digital stimulation.

• Parental Challenges: Managing screen time is fraught with peer pressure and the addictive nature of modern technologies.

• Effective Solutions: Implementing strategies such as Freedom Baskets, analog tools, and increased parental involvement can significantly reduce screen dependency.

• Community Support: Schools and community organizations play a crucial role in creating a tech-free environment conducive to healthier childhood development.

Notable Quotes

• Claire Morell at [02:33]:
  "They are seeing an epidemic of dry eye because of screens. It's affecting all ages, but young people should have zero dry eye symptoms."

• Ginny Urch at [07:55]:
  "Parents are under pressure from other parents to have the phones."

• Claire Morell at [19:07]:
  "Tech exit is like potty training. It requires short-term investment and effort but offers long-term benefits such as increased creativity, independence, and problem-solving skills."

• Claire Morell at [36:03]:
  "Freedom basket is a simple yet powerful way to encourage family members to engage without the constant distraction of smartphones."

• Claire Morell at [56:01]:
  "We have to bring addiction into the light. We need to be proactive in addressing it through community and educational support."

---

Resources Mentioned:

• Book: The Tech Exit: A Practical Guide to Freeing Kids and Teens From Smartphones by Claire Morell

Final Thoughts:

This episode underscores the urgent need to address digital overuse in children, presenting actionable solutions for parents, educators, and communities. By prioritizing outdoor activities and fostering real-life interactions, we can mitigate the adverse effects of technology and ensure healthier, more balanced childhoods.

Transcript

[Claire Morell]

This is the way it feels to move through summer in Lululemon iconic aligned softness without the front seam for our smoothest look and feel ever. Summer won't know what hit it. Stretch your limits in the non stop flexibility of the new Lululemon align no line pant in select stores [e-mail] welcome.

[Ginny Urch]

To the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Ginny Urch. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and I have just read a fantastic book, a very needed book. It's called the Tech A Practical Guide to Freeing Kids and Teens From Smartphones. And the author, Claire Morell is here. Welcome, Claire.

[Claire Morell]

Thanks so much for having me.

[Ginny Urch]

This is a fantastic book. You work in public policy, so you're dealing with screens all the time, but you decided to write a book for parents so that they can make decisions maybe before the laws catch up. Cause sometimes it takes a while for the laws to catch up. It just came out the tech exit. And I wanna kick off with this because this is something I had never, ever heard of and every single person needs to know about it. It's called dry eye.

[Claire Morell]

Mm.

[Ginny Urch]

Tell us.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah. Oh, my goodness. Yes. This was actually the most shocking piece of research I came across. So I interviewed an ophthalmologist, an eye doctor, and she explained to me she was seeing eight and nine year olds. Her practice struggling with chronic dry eye, which is normally a condition seen in 70 and 80 year olds. As you age, these glands in your eyes kind of dry up over time. And so she was struggling to understand why these young children would have lost all these oil glands in their eyes. And there was no other underlying autoimmune disorders or other conditions. She found that it was screens, that these children who were staring at screens were actually not blinking. That our brain, it's very strange, but somehow the screen tricks our brain into not blinking as often as we need. And so what happens then is if a child watching a screen is not blinking enough, those oil glands in their eyes dry up. That blinking is what releases the oil. And over time, that lack of blinking dried up these oil glands. And what she said was frightening is that they don't come back, that once these oil glands are lost, they're gone. And so a child then will have to externally lubricate their eyes the rest of their life. Like it's a condition they will have to constantly manage in order to ensure that scar tissue doesn't build up on the eye, which can ultimately lead to blindness. And so that was one of the most Shocking pieces of research I came across.

[Ginny Urch]

Yeah. I don't know if anybody even knows about it. She said, the ophthalmologist said we are seeing an epidemic. Or you may have said it. It's just in the book.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah.

[Ginny Urch]

We are seeing an epidemic of dry eye because of screens. It's affecting all ages, but young people should have zero dry eye symptoms. She spends a lot of time trying to teach children and adults how to blink.

[Claire Morell]

Mm. Yes. That was actually really interesting to me when she was saying she will be coaching, like them in her practice. Okay. Like blink. And she said they will think that they have blinked and they did not actually blink their eye. And so her hypothesis, which she said it will take time in the research to really prove this, is that the screen's actually rewiring the brain to not blink. That there is something neurological happening that then is affecting the eye not blinking as often as it should. And so I asked her, I was like, well, then, like, you know, how much time is too much? And she said, honestly, we really don't have the answers to those questions yet. All I can say is we should drastically be reducing the amount that children are looking at screens.

[Ginny Urch]

I mean, everybody needs to know about that. She's seeing 20 kids every week who have symptoms of this. So this is not like a small number. This is only one eye doctor.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah.

[Ginny Urch]

And this is on the rise. So you want to read about it in the book. Dry eye kids are not blinking. They think they are. They have to be taught how to blink. I mean, this is where we are.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah. No, I think what I think find interesting, scary about this is the. The nature of our human bodies is like, trying to snap back at us. Like, it's just. It's. It's telling us the screens are doing something that's not good for us. So there's, of course, all these other symptoms, mental health, things that maybe are harder, less tangible to see. But the fact that this is really affecting eyes, I actually think is a kindness to us because I hope that that wakes us up to see that screens are doing something unnatural, not just to our brains and our mental health, but actually to our physical bodies. And this should be a warning sign then that we are doing too much on screens. And it's not. It's not the way that we were made.

[Ginny Urch]

Yeah. It's interesting because on the other hand of it, when kids play, when they have a lot of time off screens, they. The ramifications are lifelong, which is great. Right. They become more creative and they're more Engaging and they have better relationships and all of these things. And they're lifelong. There's physical benefits that are lifelong. Their bone structures are thicker and I don't even know how you would say that. But, but these ramifications on the negative side, some of them are also lifelong as well. Now, not all of them are. You know, you can do a 30 day reset and try and fix your dopamine levels and all of that, but some of these things, I mean, the fact that you would have to lubricate your eyes for the, for the rest of your entire life, that because those oil glands dry up and do not come back, everybody needs to know about that. Here was another one. This isn't about physical body, but this is about just, okay, so I think if you're listening and you grew up and had time without screens, you would know that like if you go on a walk or if you're just kind of hanging around, you have thoughts that kind of come to you, it feels like they come to you, right? You're like, oh, I was just, you know, hanging out. And you talked about this teacher who said that kids do not have any experience of being empty headed. Tell us about that.

[Claire Morell]

Yes, I. So I interviewed educators in my book and what I found really remarkable about this one English teacher I spoke to was she was explaining that she teaches kids how to write and you know, she can only teach so much. But then it comes to a point in the class where it's now, okay, now it's your turn to actually put these skills into practice. Here's a piece of paper. You're going to think of what you're going to write and then you're going to write an essay, you're going to write a paragraph. She said that that moment transitioning to okay, now it's your turn has become extremely uncomfortable to her students. They cannot come up with a thought. And even just that feeling of sitting there and having to think, to have no kind of entertainment, no interaction, that they're just supposed to think of what they're going to write. She said they think that something has gone wrong with them, that it feels unnatural, uncomfortable to be just alone with their thoughts. And she said she just sees students struggling. Whereas, you know, 10, 15 years ago, you know, a student might need to sit and think for a minute, but then a thought would come. And she said, what's happening with these students is that they'll sit for a few minutes and a thought won't strike, that they're actually struggling to come up with their own original thoughts and to turn that into writing. And part of it, she said, is that they just, they don't have that practice of just solitude, of being alone with their thoughts, to have original thoughts, to have creativity, because they're constantly being entertained and amused. And so this, this space and time to just sit and think before you write. She said they feel like something has gone wrong. Like they'd be like, I can't think of anything almost. It's like panic. And she's like, it's okay, just sit there, give yourself a little more time, like a thought will come to you. And so I thought that was just really remarkable that students are actually just struggling to have time and space to be alone with their thoughts and to come up with original thoughts to write down.

[Ginny Urch]

There's so many more ramifications than we could ever really know, I think. And you, you know, you said you read these books and you're like, oh, well, there's another one. I didn't know about that one. There's another one. Can you talk about. And this is something that you really address in this book, this logical thought that, oh, we can just manage the screen time. So there's a lot of peer pressure. And you talk a lot about that in the book. There's a lot of peer pressure, both from kids and from parents. The peer pressure from parents that I thought was really intriguing, Claire, is that other parents who will think of you or say to you, oh, you must not be a good parent because you don't know where your kid is.

[Claire Morell]

Yes.

[Ginny Urch]

I was like, oh, that's really interesting. So obviously we understand that a 10 year old has a ton of peer pressure and that's how kids and adolescents are. They want to fit in. But there is also pressure from other parents as well to have these phones. And so what you say is that, okay, well, the parents like, all right, fine, I'm going to give in. You know, I'm getting all this pressure from all of these different sources and we are going to manage it. Can you talk about why that doesn't work?

[Claire Morell]

Yeah. And I really, I just want to say I feel for parents. I do feel like there's a lot of pressures. And parents do, I think, are generally aware that the screens aren't great for their kids. Like they, they've heard something about the harms and they feel kind of stuck and are kind of just sold an illusion, honestly, mainly by the tech companies themselves, that you can give these things to your kids and you can mitigate the harms by Just putting screen time limits in place. But in my research as a policy expert, and the more I just dug into the data, it just was overwhelmingly confirmed for me that screen time limits aren't working out. Both from research and evidence. But also just anecdotally, every parent I spoke with, who I would say kind of fell into the screen time trap, just described their experience as extremely frustrating, overwhelming, exhausting, challenging, because they felt like it was always them and their willpower was the only thing standing between their child and a highly addictive screen. Like a drug dispensing machine, as one mom said to me. And so she said that, you know, the screen time limit's never enough. And it actually just created constant battles in their home, like constant friction between parent and child. So that's just the parents experience saying, like, this isn't working out the way that we thought. But then the evidence also shows that the way that these screen technologies act on the brain is more like a highly addictive drug. That even a small amount of time is still incredibly addictive and compulsion inducing. And that even if a child's only on, say, Instagram for 15 minutes a day, they can mentally and emotionally live in the virtual world long after they leave it. And that was just recounted to me by parent after parent that they thought 15 minutes a day of, you know, a gaming app for their son would be okay, but it completely changed their child's behavior. They said he spent the entire day thinking about the 20 minutes he could get on, and that's all he wanted to do. The virtual world became more reality for him than the real world, even though it was time limited. And what I explained to parents in the book is that's because the underlying design behind these technologies, they are meant to be addictive. It is not a neutral tool that the notifications, the likes followers, all the design features they've created are meant to draw you back for more. And just looking at the brain science, dopamine addiction scientists will explain this, that dopamine does not create satisfaction. It actually only creates craving. And so the dopamine hits that kids are then getting, it just always makes them want more. It's never enough. There's never satisfaction or fulfillment. And we could, you know, go on and on, but the other cost is that it then also desensitizes children to the pleasures of the real world, the things that you were talking about that are so beneficial for them. So it's not even just a matter of the kind of opportunity cost of time spent, but even that small amount of Time spent because it's so incredibly addictive actually changes their desires. Like, they start to want to be in the virtual world more, and the real world activities become mundane and boring and dull to them because their brain becomes used to a very artificially high level of dopamine. So for all those reasons, to me, from the data, the brain science, as well as the experience of parents just showed me that really, screen time limits are not working out the way that they've been advertised to parents.

[Ginny Urch]

And there's a lot to learn about that in this book because you talk about how, you know, the parent finally gives in and they're like, oh, wait, this has created 40 more battles every single day.

[Claire Morell]

Every day.

[Ginny Urch]

I didn't really realize the cost, but I want to read what you wrote because you're talking about this young girl, Emma, just started sixth grade. And this is just common. I mean, I'm sure it's whatever. It's just a name you picked because this is happening everywhere, all over the place, everywhere. Just started the sixth grade, heading into middle school in most places, daily begging for a smartphone. She felt like she was missing out, and she was missing out. This is what she says she's missing out on. The group texts, the memes, the photos, the inside jokes. She told her parents that no one was making jokes out loud. And all the interactions among her friends were happening on the phones, which I'm sure for a child is like, maybe slightly exaggerated, but probably mostly accurate. It's all happening on the phones and I'm completely left out. So you are very clear. You say there are undeniable social costs to any child who isn't given access to a smartphone or social media. Exiting from tech isn't without cost. But parents don't try and hide those costs from their kids and explain why we're trying to spare you from greater costs. So it really made me think about, and I know you talk in the book about Chris McKenna from protecting eyes. He was saying how this is just a part of parenting. Now. If you are becoming a parent in this day and age, what you have to know is that technology and how you deal with technology is part of the equation. So there we go. That's good. You know, it's good to set the stage. But another piece of it, and you really address this in your book, the tech exit, is that the parent is going to have to put in some energy and time and probably some money. And you're very, very clear about that. So you talk about how this one family, you know, they. They get rid of their screens. And they're seeing all these problems that you're talking about. And it says you have to replace it with your time. Not forever. You know, the kid is going to become more creative over time, but especially in the initial stages, it's really the parent that is taking on the brunt of those consequences of sort of shifting out of that dopamine seeking situation. So this mom says, do I love playing Monopoly for five hours? No. But I did it anyway every day.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah.

[Ginny Urch]

Be forewarned. This is like chilling, Claire. I think because it's like, well, what are parents for? Like, this is what you're for. Be forewarned that the main thing you'll need to replace screens with at first is you.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah.

[Ginny Urch]

So can you talk about just. I mean, parenting has changed then.

[Claire Morell]

It has.

[Ginny Urch]

And maybe that's one of the biggest confusing parts is that parenting used to be like, you know, here you go, kid, be on your own. And they would go do real world hands on things because there weren't these screens. And so if we take the same approach now, it doesn't work.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah, exactly. No, I, I feel for parents in our day and age like this is, these are new challenges that prior generations didn't even have to face because it just, it wasn't an option. And what I'm trying to do in the book is I'm trying to kind of surface what I would call these hidden costs of inaction. So I think it's easy to think that the, you know, the screen just kind of can become the path of least resistance. Okay. This is an easy way for you to be entertained. You know, here you go. Kind of stop bothering me. I need to get this thing done. So I just, I see how easy it is for a parent to hand a child a screen because we've all been there. Parenting is exhausting. You're busy, you're tired, you just need your child to be occupied. But what I'm trying to show to parents is that those short term decisions, that short term ease, that eases your burned burden of parenting in the long term has these costs that actually makes your job as a parent much harder. But so yes, in the short term, doing the tech exit is going to require more of you as a parent. These, yeah, as I said, these aren't without costs. But what I'm trying to show is that the cost of inaction, of just continuing to hand a child of a screen grow much, much greater over time. Whereas if you make these kind of shorter term investments, okay, it's going to take more involvement from me initially to teach my child how to play independently, how to get outside, how to develop skills of creativity, imagination. It does take more of your time and attention energy as a parent, but over the long term just the benefits are enormous and every family I spoke with just shared that the number one.

[Ginny Urch]

Selling product of its kind with over 20 years of research and innovation Botox Cosmetic out of Botulinum Toxin A is a prescription medicine used to temporarily make moderate to severe frown lines, crow's feet and forehead lines look better in adults.

[Botox Commercial]

Effects of Botox Cosmetic may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems or muscle weakness may be a sign of a life threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Don't receive Botox Cosmetic if you have a skin infection. Side effects may include allergic reactions, injection site pain, headache, eyebrow and eyelid, drooping and eyelid swelling. Allergic reactions can include include rash, welts, asthma symptoms and dizziness. Tell your doctor about medical history, muscle or nerve conditions including ALS or Lou Gehrig's disease, Myasthenia gravis or Lambert Eaton syndrome and medications including Botulinum toxins as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. For full safety information, visit botoxcosmetic.com or call 877-351-0300.

[Ginny Urch]

See for yourself at botoxcosmetic.com hi Zoe.

[T Mobile Representative]

Saldana, welcome to T Mobile. Here's your new iPhone 16 Pro on us.

[Claire Morell]

Thanks.

[Zoe Saldana]

And here's my old phone to trade in.

[T Mobile Representative]

You don't need a trade in when you switch to T Mobile. We'll you a new iPhone 16 Pro plus we'll help you pay off your old Phone up to 800 bucks and you still get to keep it.

[Claire Morell]

There's always a trade in.

[T Mobile Representative]

Not right now. At T Mobile.

[Zoe Saldana]

I feel like I have to give you something in return for karma. That's okay, I don't really have much in my purse. Oh, let's see. Hand sanitizer. It's lavender.

[T Mobile Representative]

I'm good.

[Zoe Saldana]

Seriously, Let me check this pocket. Oh, mints.

[T Mobile Representative]

Really, I'm fine.

[Zoe Saldana]

Oh, I have raisins. I'm a mom. Wait, wait one sec. I've got cupcakes in the car.

[T Mobile Commercial]

It's our best iPhone offer ever. Switch to T Mobile. Get a new iPhone 16 Pro with Apple Intelligence on us. No trade in needed. We'll even pay off your phone up.

To 800 bucks with 24 monthly bill credits. New line 100 plus a month on experience beyond Finance Agreement $999.99 and qualifying ported for well qualified plus tax and $10 connection charge. Payout via virtual prepaid card. Allow 15 days credits end and balance due if you pay off early or cancel.

[T Mobile Representative]

See t mobile.com hi Zoe Saldana. Welcome to T Mobile. Here's your new iPhone 16 Pro on us.

[Claire Morell]

Thanks.

[Zoe Saldana]

And here's my old phone to trade in.

[T Mobile Representative]

You don't need a trade in when you switch to T Mobile. We'll give you a new iPhone 16 Pro. Plus we'll help you pay off your old Phone up to 800 bucks and you still get to keep it.

[Claire Morell]

There's always a trade in.

[T Mobile Representative]

Not right now. AT T Mobile.

[Zoe Saldana]

I feel like I have to give you something in return for karma.

[T Mobile Representative]

That's okay.

[Zoe Saldana]

I don't really have much in my purse. Oh, let's see. Hand sanitizer. It's lavender.

[T Mobile Representative]

I'm good. Seriously.

[Zoe Saldana]

Let me check this pocket. Oh, mints.

[T Mobile Representative]

Really, I'm fine.

[Zoe Saldana]

Oh, I have raisins. I'm a mom. Wait, wait one sec. I've got cupcakes in the car.

[T Mobile Commercial]

It's our best iPhone offer ever. Switch to T Mobile, get a new iPhone 16 Pro with Apple intelligence on us. No trade in needed. We'll even pay off your phone up.

To 800 bucks with 24 monthly bill credits. New line 100 plus a month on experience beyond Finance Agreement 999.99 and qualifying ported for well qualified plus tax and 10 connection charge. Pay off via virtual prepaid card. Allow 15 days credits and inbounds due if you pay off early or cancel.

[Claire Morell]

CT mobile.com youm know, I make this analogy sometime to potty training. Like no parent likes potty training. It is such a chore. You have to kind of be like, okay, we're doing it these two weeks. This, you know, this is going to take a lot of my time and energy and investment but obviously the long term benefits are enormous. You're like now I'm not changing diapers on that child anymore. Like and so I think having a similar approach to screens, recognizing there's going to be some short term costs to exiting there are going to be real social costs to your child that you'll have to navigate but just that it is 100% worth it for the long term benefits to their flourishing, their well being, you know, their own creativity, their independence, self control, problem solving. Like I could go on about the benefits but I will just say it gets easier. Every parent told me that like Initially it was more investment, but then the child does learn to play independently and the job of the parent becomes more simple of providing more scaffolding and structuring, but not as much intense investment.

[Ginny Urch]

I think what really struck me is that the conversation is that parenting has really changed. Yes, it requires more of us in these certain ways than it used to. And that might be confusing, that might be annoying even, but it just. That is how it is. Like what Chris McKenna says, technology is just part of parenting now. And part of parenting means because of these screens, you are going to have to put in a different kind, more possibly type of energy, time and financial possibility. Impossible. That didn't even make sense. But like, you might have to throw some finances at it. Like, you might be getting a trampoline, you might be getting a basketball net. You might be getting putting up, like, we want to put up a tetherball. You, like, put it in the.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah.

[Ginny Urch]

Tire. I'm like, that's on my mind. And then you hit the ball and I love that game, actually.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah.

[Ginny Urch]

Those are the things that people didn't used to have to do because the kids would just run out in the neighborhood and they would run. You didn't have to do any of that stuff. Like, you might have bought your kid a baseball glove and a ball and a bat and. And you had a bike and that was like what you had in a sprinkler. I think that's kind of what we grew up with. And that was the investment. And it was enough because there was kids playing.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah.

[Ginny Urch]

And so when you read the book, you know, you talked about another mom who was like, look, it's Friday night and you know what I want to do? I want to put on my pajamas and I want to sit by the fire with my husband, but I'm keeping on my jeans because now I have to drive my daughter to her friend's house and then I have to go back and pick her up in a couple hours because I'm helping my child to invest in these hands on real life relationships. Yeah, but you read your book and you're like, okay, I'm kind of annoyed that I have to do all this. But you're also like, it's normal now.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah. No, I'm so glad you brought that up. And I do try to talk to parents, like, the social costs are real. And so I think what it means in the families I spoke with is they have to put more parental effort into helping their kids find good friends that they can just be with in real Life. And sometimes that means, okay, this other family that is also not doing smartphones and social media, you know, they live 20 minutes away. That's a really good friend for my daughter. And I want to invest in that relationship for her. So I am going to take on this cost of myself of driving there and back. And so a lot of parents reiterated to me, yeah, this is a new challenge. Parents in prior generations didn't have to do this. Like, no kids had smartphones. But now that kids do to kind of find those friendships, like, parents were very clear to me. Like, you do have to be intentional about building a child's social life. It's important for them to have good friendships. And so, yeah, working to find other families to do this with you, building those friendships for your child, driving them, coordinating activities. You know, a lot of these families said that they end up hosting stuff at their house. Like, is that convenient to you as a parent? Probably not, you know, but this mom shared, like, for her teenage son to not be on phones all the time, like to have a peer group of doing things together. They would host at their house, like a poker night, you know, for all his friends. She's like, I'd buy junk food. We bought a poker set. He and his friends would play poker. It was great. Or we bought a bonfire for the backyard. But it was, it took. Took, as you mentioned, some financial investment and, and time and energy to be like, okay, we'll be the house that hosts this social gathering. Because I want to provide the alternative to this smartphone socializing by actually giving them real life in person, social interactions. And so, yeah, it's not without cost. And I think, unfortunately, this is the state that we've gotten to with the ubiquity of smartphones and social media and childhood means that if you are going to exit again, I would say it's 100% worth it. But it isn't without cost. And I think that is something that we just have to reckon with as parents, that it is going to take more from us. And so how do we do that? And I would just say my greatest encouragement in the book is finding other parents to do this with you. I mean, it is going to be challenging and having allies who are kind of in the trenches with you. You can commiserate or troubleshoot these things together and just feel like you have people to kind of just come alongside you, encourage you, shore up your convictions. If there are times where you're like, this is. This is challenging, this is tiring for me as a par. But I will say what did happen over time is these families said that their kids really had close friendships and they had really close relationships with each other. So the sibling relationships were really strong. They would play and entertain each other. And then also the parent child relationships were a lot stronger. Getting rid of the screens that had constantly created this friction or tension. And so yes, there are costs to parents, but I think there's also tremendous benefits that you will see from putting in that effort.

[Ginny Urch]

Yes. So just like how there's these costs that we don't know about, which is like the dry eye thing. There are also benefits that you won't know about until you try it. And I think it just, it gives a message like this is normal, this is normal that you are going to have to put in a little bit of extra effort that didn't used to exist. And that's what other people are doing. And it's a good thing. Children need friends who are, who aren't also on screens and parents need to help their kids find those friends. This one mom said I'll have to work at helping my children build a social life. And that's a new phenomenon that wasn't a thing before. And so your book just lays that out. This is part of it. You give all sorts of practical ideas. One of the practical ideas now this is for teens. I thought, this is great. Like these are really practical ideas. Think about what this looks like. In your home there was a young man and it was like, look, look. If you don't use a smartphone, you get to use a really cool truck that our, you know, our family has. It's like, you gotta find what matters to them. And our parents to a degree did that. When we were younger, we got a Nintendo for Christmas and whenever the Nintendo came out and we played on it too much, my parents sold it within two weeks. Within two weeks of getting the Nintendo, they sold it to some college kid for a hundred dollars. And it came with a bunch of games. We were like, that kid lucked out, you know, but they did a swap. They said, if you are okay with us getting, getting rid of this Nintendo, we will get you some new toys. Or I can't remember what it was, but they did a swap. They sold it. Now I think once we, once it was sold, we were like, shoot, we got duped, you know, but, but looking back, I'm so glad that we didn't have it. And what I think happened was, is my mom was dealing with the exact same type of thing, which is, which is like, you Want it? You want it? You want it? Okay, I'm going to give it to them. And all of a sudden, it's creating way more battles. I want to play more that we're playing. He's got the gun. I want the gun. Everybody's fighting, and they got rid of it. So the idea of saying to a kid, we're going to have a trade, you're going to be able to do this really cool family legacy truck if you choose to have a smartphone, something like that.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah, no, exactly. And I just want to say that takes a lot of courage as a parent to reverse course on something that you literally were like, we just gave this to our kids. And I do think, unfortunately, a lot of parents think, okay, once I've given this technology, well, that's it. You know, it's kind of like a foregone conclusion. And what I try to say in the book is it's actually never too late to reverse course. So many of these tech exit families didn't actually start out tech exit. They started out with a lot of screens and they saw that this was not creating the family life that they wanted for their family or for their children. Like your parents recognizing, oh, my goodness, we bought this. Our kids are way too drawn to it. They're using it too much. So I think you recognize that as a parent, but it does. It takes courage to. To change directions. And so I was encouraged. Like, that story about the track was one of my favorite things to tell in the book because the dad basically said, we gave our son a smartphone, and within a week of giving it, we were like, oh, no, this was a mistake. He is compulsively drawn to this thing, even with all the limits we're putting on it. And so, yeah, that was the trade. They said, we're going to take this back. We're sorry. I mean, this often involves, like, apologizing to your kids. Like, I think we have to not be afraid to apologize as parents and admit when we're like, well, we didn't realize this at the time. We made a mistake. We are going to do differently. But instead we are going to give you this real world freedom or privilege or responsibility, this good that will replace that kind of the. The tech that we had given. And so that story of the truck was so inspiring to me because they said what it did is actually really helped their son progress towards adulthood because it helped him actually, like, take on more adult, like, responsibility. Driving the truck. He started a moving business with it that summer with his brother. He made A lot of money. It was really rewarding, it was exciting. You know, he felt more like an adult starting to take on those responsib. And so I do encourage parents that it is important as we are restricting tech or restricting their freedoms in the virtual world, we want to be gradually, as our children age, opening up more real world freedoms that we will, we know will actually help them develop the skills that we want them to have as adults. And so, you know, a truck is one example for a younger child. It could be a bike, like literally letting them bike somewhere independently to a friend's house or to, you know, the creek down the road. So I would just say thinking about the ways that we can trade the screens for things in the real world that will bring a child a lot of sense of joy, fulfillment, satisfaction that they won't get from the screen. As we mentioned, the dopamine never creates satisfaction, but that also will help them develop skills towards adulthood. Whereas, you know, smartphones and screens really just stunt their development. Like literally the brain research, like it stunts their development of self control, emotional regulation, those things that we want for our kids.

[Ginny Urch]

And that's the cost. The cost. I mean that is a cost for a parent that's nervous already, dealing with maybe a little bit of anxiety to say, look, you know, I could give him a smartphone and he's just going to be in the home and I'm going to know where he is and there's no chance that he's going to wreck this family legacy truck or get into an accident or any of that kind of stuff. Same thing with a bike. There is a cost there.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah.

[Ginny Urch]

So I'm glad you're talking about it because you have to make those choices. You wrote the, you know, if you apologize, you say I put you in a situation that I should not have put you in. You didn't know. Didn't know. But, but I did do that. And so this, this difficult situation, it comes back to me. I bought the phone, I bought the iPad, whatever the situation is. And you write several times, it's never too late. A reset can help anyone at any age, at any time. It is never too late to do what you think is best for your child. One of the things that parents may not be aware of and you talk about this, I think it's so important is the incentivization, I don't even know if that's a word structure of the social media apps and just the Internet in general. Video games I'm sure are similar. It's like you Know, you think you can have all these parental and blocks and, and you can have it on your wireless router and all of those types of things, but the truth remains that a child is incentivized to. Well, I, I mean I would say a parent is incentivized to post pictures of their child. So that's something that people are talking about quite a bit. Right. Which is like what is the child's right to privacy? You know, does the two year old have any say in the fact that they're posted online? Sometimes they're posting pictures of all, all of these different types of situations. Right. But there is incentive. It's incentivization. I don't know if that's a word, but you know that look, you're going to get more likes, you're going to get more followers. As a parent, there's that and then as a child there's that for maybe pictures that are not appropriate for, for them, for their age really, for any age, but they're incentivized to post those types of things. And so what you talk about is that no parental control can change the culture of it.

[Claire Morell]

Yep, I think that is really important to understand. And I have that, you know, whole chapter in the book called Parental Controls are a Myth. And I realize that's a provocative title. But I wanted to show parents that the parental controls are not accomplishing, I think what any parent would hope that they would be. There's no sense of real control on the part of parents. The tech companies, their algorithms, the environment that they've created, that is still what is controlling a child's online experience. And I could tell you, you know, loophole after loophole how the kids can get around the filters that, you know, there's a hundred hundreds of apps, every app has its own in app browser. Often filters controls can't see into what's in the feed of an app or they can't filter out what a child accesses through the in app browser. So there are just, it is so impossible to effectively lock down a smartphone. But then like you mentioned, at an even deeper level, the control does nothing to change the environment. The incentive structure of the platforms that incentivize you posting pictures of your holding yourself out there often that are extremely sexualized. I think that the, the nature of these algorithms, they really promote the most sensational kind of sexualized material. And so children then think that it's normal to post, you know, more sexual photos or to take that in. And so that is something, that environment that we're you know, allowing children to be in if they're on these apps and platforms is inherently a very adult place environment. And the irony is that there are not actually adults there to look out for them. That the controls don't let a parent see into what is in the child's feed or to change it to change the algorithms of the kinds of things that are getting recommended and dumped into a child's seed without them even looking for it. And so that isn't that incentive structure that you're mentioning is impossible to change with the parental controls available.

[Ginny Urch]

You wrote 1 in 49 to 12 year old boys reported they were already been on an online dating app. So this is the reality of what's going on.

[T Mobile Representative]

Hi Zoe Saldana. Welcome to T Mobile. Here's your new iPhone 16 Pro on us.

[Claire Morell]

Thanks.

[Zoe Saldana]

And here's my old phone to trade in.

[T Mobile Representative]

You don't need a trade in. When you switch to T Mobile. We'll give you a new iPhone 16 Pro plus we'll help you pay off your old Phone up to 800 bucks and you still get to keep it.

[Claire Morell]

There's always a trade in.

[T Mobile Representative]

Not right now. @ T Mobile.

[Zoe Saldana]

I feel like I have to you something in return for karma.

[T Mobile Representative]

That's okay.

[Zoe Saldana]

I don't really have much in my purse. Oh, let's see. Hand sanitizer. It's lavender.

[T Mobile Representative]

I'm good. Seriously.

[Zoe Saldana]

Let me check this pocket. Oh, mints.

[T Mobile Representative]

Really, I'm fine.

[Zoe Saldana]

Oh, I have raisins. I'm a mom. Wait, wait one sec. I've got cupcakes in the car.

[T Mobile Commercial]

It's our best iPhone offer ever. Switch to T Mobile. Get a new iPhone 16 Pro with Apple intelligence on us. No trade in needed. We'll even pay off your phone A.

To 800 bucks with 24 monthly bill credits. New line 100 plus a month on experience beyond finance agreement. $999.99 and qualify imported for well qualified plus tax and $10 connection charge. Payout via virtual prepaid card. Allow 15 days credits and balance due if you pay off early or Cancel.

[T Mobile Representative]

See T mobile.com hi Zoe Saldana. Welcome to T Mobile. Here's your new iPhone 16 Pro on us.

[Claire Morell]

Thanks.

[Zoe Saldana]

And here's my old phone to trade in.

[T Mobile Representative]

You don't need to trade in when you switch to T Mobile. We'll give you enough. New iPhone 16 Pro plus we'll help you pay off your old Phone up to 800 bucks and you still get to keep it.

[Claire Morell]

There's always a trade in.

[T Mobile Representative]

Not right now. At T Mobile.

[Zoe Saldana]

I feel like I have to give you something in return for karma.

[T Mobile Representative]

That's okay.

[Zoe Saldana]

I don't really have much in my purse. Oh, let's see. Hand sanitizer. It's lavender.

[T Mobile Representative]

I'm good. Seriously.

[Zoe Saldana]

Let me check this pocket. Oh, mints.

[T Mobile Representative]

Really, I'm fine.

[Zoe Saldana]

Oh, I have raisins. I'm a mom. Wait, wait one sec. I've got cupcakes in the car.

[T Mobile Commercial]

It's our best iPhone offer ever. Switch to T Mobile. Get a new iPhone 16 Pro with Apple Intelligence on us. No trade in needed. We'll even pay off your Phone up.

To 800 bucks with 24 monthly bill credits. New line 100 plus a month on experience beyond Finance Agreement 999.99 and qualifying boarded for well qualified plus tax and $10 connection charge. Payout via virtual prepaid card. Allow 15 days credits and balance due if you pay off early or cancel.

[Bible Stories Podcast]

See t mobile.com do you want to learn the Bible? In a way that's encouraging, surprising and even entertaining, Check out the Bible Stories podcast. Each week Bible Stories brings you classics, you know, and hidden gems that you might have missed. Have you ever heard about the time that King David fought a giant and he lost? Or when Paul preached so long a guy fell asleep he tumbled out a window and had to be brought back to life? Did you know that God himself buried Moses and that Michael the Archangel and the devil fought over Moses body? Yeah, it gets wild. So tune in for storytelling that's biblical, insightful and a lot of fun. Subscribe today to Bible Stories with Matt Mullins and Todd Haymans, available wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ginny Urch]

The book is fantastic because you give a lot of practical solutions. So one of the practical solutions is the Freedom Basket. Can about that?

[Claire Morell]

Yes, A lot of families mentioned this to me that they that what they found was just a helpful practice in the home, particularly for adults. For parents that are using phones is to have a freedom basket where when they come home from work at the end of the day or they're with their children, they're with the family, it's a meal time. Just leaving the phones in a freedom basket that that is inviting people to experience the freedom of real life relationships and not constantly be tethered to the smartphones. And then it went also for guests that they have over in their home, particularly if they are hosting things for their teenagers and some of their friends have smartphones that when they come over to their home, you know, they invite the teens to leave their phones in the freedom basket. Because you know, when we're here, we're going to be together in person. And so I think small practices like that, I mean, it's very simple. This mom was like, I don't know, I brought some cheap basket, you know, from the craft store and just, you know, this is our freedom basket. And, and that, that was just a really powerful way to help the family be more intentional because I think we don't even realize these devices are on us all the time and they're constantly pulling our attention away. I reference elsewhere in the book a study that was done called Brain Drain. And it's about how the mere presence of a smartphone is mentally distracting because you're actually exerting self control and brain energy to not be checking it when it's on you. You are aware the phone is on you and you're like mentally exerting that energy to not check it. And it reduces your available cognitive capacity for the task at hand or the in person conversation that there's part of your brain distracted by just trying to exert energy to not check it. And so really the farther away, the better, the more your brain can actually forget and be released and be more freed up to focus on what's right in front of you. So freedom basket, great practice. A lot of families have adopted it.

[Ginny Urch]

Yeah, My friend Erin Lochner, she wrote a book called the Opt Out Family and she talked about getting a cookie jar, go to the antique store, get an old cookie jar and it could be really cool looking.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah.

[Ginny Urch]

You know, it can look like whatever you want. So you make that creative choice. Another thing that you talk about is having an analog option wherever possible. This was really interesting because we've got kids that are ages 8 to 16 and I still use a big desk calendar because it just helps my brain. Yeah, I don't like doing the online calendar. I don't use. It's a big joke in our family. Like I don't use the Google Calendar. And then sometimes my husband will be like, nobody. Like it was on the Google calendar. And I'm like, but I don't, I don't use that. I've got my big desk calendar. And I felt pressure at times to be like, you know, because you messed stuff up or it was, but it was on the Google, it was on the big calendar. You know, nobody looked at it. But I did notice that almost every day our kids kind, I leave it in my room and they sort of come and gather around that they're looking to see what's coming up. They're counting the days till their birthday, they're coloring on it, you know, and then when the month ends, we take it off and throw it out. But I thought, gosh, it's an interesting thing. Like I have felt pressure to get rid of that, you know, like, get with the times lady, use a Google Calendar or whatever, some calendar app. But I thought, gosh, it really does bring us together. And it is this hands on thing that everyone's interested in looking at. And so that's one of the things you talk about like as a parent, if there is an analog option, try and use it.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah. Oh, I love it. I am. So for the family wall calendar, death calendar, like you just mentioned, it's actually, it's a tool that can help bring the together so everyone's on the same page, they can see it. I mean, a Google Calendar, like that's really difficult for a child to see in or to check it or even to have like a visual. And I do think kids really thrive off of kind of knowing what to expect for the month or the day. They like to know the routine, they like to know the schedule. Writing it in a place where everyone can see it, you can walk by, you can look at what's coming up, I find incredibly helpful. And like, it just the more analog options we adopt, the more children can see into them. They can see into our practices. Like I'm writing down a physical grocery list to bring with me to the store. Like, they just, it helps train them in a lot of ways towards the adult skills that we want by just being able to see the analog options. What's so difficult about a smartphone is my child has no idea what I'm doing on it. I mean, I'm hunched over my screen. What, what am I doing? Am I on a calendar? Am I texting someone? Am I scrolling Instagram? You know, it's just, it's a black box. And so I explained that adopting these analog options both as adults helps separate us from being constantly tethered to our phones. I mean, part of the reason that we become so drawn to them constantly is we put everything in our life on the ph. And so I think it's really healthy to actually separate those things out. Like what do I actually need to do on my phone and what can be done better using an analog option? Like what did we have before smartphones? We had alarm clocks, we had watches, we had paper calendars, we had shopping lists. And so trying to opt for more of those things that also then can bring children into it. So I'm with you. I'm not on Google Calendar. My husband is for his job, but I tell him, I'm like, if you haven't written it on your paper calendar, like I don't know about it. So I'm not going into the Google Calendar if you want me to know it's going on the paper calendar.

[Ginny Urch]

This is how our home runs as well. And after reading your book, I was like, I am sticking with this forever. And I really, it made me really realize, I'm like, these kids are in here every day looking at this calendar. They get it out, it's on the floor. Like I said, they're coloring on it. I mean, they're writing their own stuff on there. It's fantastic. So, so many practical ideas in this book. The Tech Exit, where you talk about prioritizing phone free tasks when you're around your kids. I mean you're going to find thing after thing. What are some really good screen rule ideas? Like in having an Internet buddy system, one of the things that you talk about is, is signing up for the social media. Like you're a kid, you know, pretend you're a 10 year old and you have signed up for Instagram, what's going to happen? And there is a verse in Proverbs and I think this is a really important one. Now some people read the Bible and some people don't, but this is in Proverbs and it's in there actually three times almost verbatim. And it says, the wise are cautious and avoid danger. Fools plunge ahead with reckless confidence. The wise are cautious and avoid danger. Fools plunge ahead with reckless confidence. And I almost kind of think that's the crux of the problem.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah.

[Ginny Urch]

Like the wisdom is you gotta be.

[Claire Morell]

Cautious, proceed with caution. Yep.

[Ginny Urch]

Yeah, yeah. And how many people are actually doing that? How many people are actually getting on that social media app like they're 11 years old and every single one of them and seeing what happens on the Discord Channel, what's happening on all of these things that the kids are on. So very, very, very practical ideas in this book that will help you a lot. I want to talk about the schools because I was so encouraged by some of this, Claire. I was surprised how encouraged I was. And what wonderful ideas these are both for schools and for youth groups.

[Claire Morell]

Yes. Oh, that's so true. Yeah.

[Ginny Urch]

Listen up youth groups as well. Like stop, stop putting your youth group on Instagram so that all the kids feel pressure that they have to be on Instagram to see what's happening. So a couple of the really, really cool things. Things the bell to bell no phone policy, obviously people are kind of talking about that sort of already in making sure that it's just bell to bell because the hallways are quiet. No one's talking. Even if it included the school bus would be fantastic.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah.

[Ginny Urch]

But people. Okay, schools are going further. Let's go further. Let's go further. Let's go further with our youth groups.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah.

[Ginny Urch]

There is a social media free school.

[Claire Morell]

Yes. Oh, I loved this story. This was amazing. This principal, she recognized they had already said, you know, no phones during the school day, but she was just still, they were seeing a lot of behavioral issues with students, a lot of just disrespect, a lot of what she called just like locker room talk, just like inappropriate jokes, like very kind of just really unhealthy things that they were seeing in the student body. And she realized it's because these kids are on social media outside the school day. So it's not necessarily that they're on the phone during school, but that what's happening in these social media platforms outside the school hours are affecting the next school day. When these kids come back to school because of all the things they're taking in. They're talking about the latest Tick Tock video. And so she decided, okay, I'm gonna kind of do a test run. I'm gonna start with parents who haven't actually given smartphone social media yet. I'm going to talk to like the seventh and eighth grade parents and say, hey, let's commit together this group of parents to like not give the kids. Kids social media or smartphones. And the parents were like, okay, we'll do it. And so basically what she found. So they did that kind of like for two different years. The incoming eighth grade class, they talked to the parents. We're gonna have these kids and not be on social media. So it wasn't like a requirement of the school. It was just something she intentionally did. Meeting with all the parents and got them all on board what they saw. She didn't tell the high school teachers she was doing this. Teachers were coming into her office and they're like, like, there's something different with the 9th and 10th graders versus the 11th and 12th graders. It's almost like we're seeing a total divide in the school. The 9th and 10th graders, they love talking together. They're like really interacting in person. They're respectful to the teachers. They're talking about real life things. But the 11th and 12th graders, it's all about the latest TikTok video. They're really disrespectful. And so that convinced her, just seeing, like, okay, this experiment had very strong results in a positive direction. She's like, we're doing it. We're going social media free. And so what? They did that. Then they told all the parents, we're gonna have you and your students sign a pledge that says, while I'm at this school, I am not going to have an Instagram, a Snapchat, a TikTok account. And they had to put down their phone number and email. And so that way, you know, if they suspected something, they can actually do a spot check. She explained to me that, like, most these accounts require you to enter some type of phone number, so even if you're not using your real name, it can come up. And she said it also just created a culture where the students could even just flag for the administrators, like, hey, I think so. And so is on this account. So it's not like they're spending a lot of time on enforcement, but just that pledge created a really strong school culture where these kids just aren't on the Instagram apps. And she said one. One senior student kind of initially really struggled with this. She'd had all the apps as a junior, but she wanted to stay at the school once it went social media free. And so they, you know, they talked about. It's not about. Not that. Not that I don't want you to stay in touch with your friends or at other schools, but just find another way. These apps are harmful for you. You. At the end of the year, she talked to that senior and she said, okay, so how do you think it went? Did you notice any benefits? She said, oh, yeah, it made me a much better friend. And it just. It made me much more engaged in person. So the students even saw the benefits for themselves. So it's been extremely inspiring just to see that schools can actually be really powerful to work and partner with parents to change the culture, because it makes it then easier on every parent to be like, okay, your school just doesn't allow social media. And so then none of the other kids are on it. Like, that is the collective solution that is so powerful to parents. And schools can be one of the most powerful or youth groups, just local, collective solutions, because if you change that culture, well, then every individual parent isn't having to bear as much of those social costs for their child. So I found it just incredibly inspiring. I hope more schools will adopt something like that. You know, it's really Relatively simple. She just talked to the parents about why they were doing it and everyone kind of signed up to do it. So. Yeah, yeah.

[Ginny Urch]

And there is a little bit of historically normal practice here. The Waldorf schools have been doing this for a very long time.

[Claire Morell]

Oh yeah, yeah.

[Ginny Urch]

They had policies about technology use. And I think that this is really important to know about because it might seem like an overreach. Why would the school be reaching basically into our day to day life about our own personal technology? But this is normal. This has been happening in other schools. It's not new. You can see how when you come together like this, it helps everyone. It certainly helps the teacher.

[Claire Morell]

Oh yeah.

[Ginny Urch]

The teacher who is like basically 1 versus 150 students every single day and how exhausting that is. And one teacher is really consistent with it and other teachers aren't. And then that becomes your reputation in the school. I mean, that's an awful thing for a teacher to have to deal with. But I'm thinking, okay, for sure for the school, not only are we doing phone free, bell to bell, bus to bus is what I would think. No phones on the bus.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah.

[Ginny Urch]

Also, also we're going to have these contracts and your kids are not allowed to be on social media during the time that they're in our school. And we're going to go further because you're also talking about that they're doing the same thing for pornography. They there. It's like we're starting to come together as adults to help support each other as we parent in this age and teach in this age, but also to help the kids. But I was also thinking about, okay, yes, youth groups could do it, but you could also do this with your group of friends. Yeah, you could say, you know what, look, we've got this nature group because we do homeschool. So I'm like, okay, I'm thinking through. We're trying to set up this like pick up day of sports. You know, it's like you go, and the moms are going to sit at the playground and there's sports fields and we'll bring some wiffle balls and some. Everybody can play kickball. And I've thought about, well, gosh, but what if the kids are there and they're videotaping it? I'm like, oh, this gave me the idea. Of course I could just say this is a phone free environment.

[Claire Morell]

Phone free.

[Ginny Urch]

Yeah, yeah, we're gonna have a little contract and this is for, you know, whatever. So you in whatever your sphere of influence is, you could take these Principles. Now it goes further. So they have to sign this form for social media, a social media free school. There's another one. American Heritage School is taking pornography very seriously. More than 7,500 students have to sign a technology commitment and abide by a student honor code code that prohibits any accessing of pornography, including off campus and on personal devices, and also requires students to inform a trusted adult if they come across pornography, even accidentally.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah, this was so encouraging to me because I think what schools are recognizing is they play a huge role in the formation of a child. Like, of course, parents are on the front lines, but schools, I mean, that's where kids are spending most of their time during the day. And they're partnering with parents, parents in trying to form the child. And when they recognize that something is deformative, that it is, it is harming a child's well being, like pornography, like social media, they want to come alongside parents and say, hey, we want to help you protect your child. This is going to be our policy at the school. And it's really, it's for the good of the students that is the motivation behind these policies. And what's been so encouraging about the, that anti pornography policy at American Heritage Schools is what they've said is it's been really powerful for actually, like helping students to deal with this because it's created a culture where it's normal to be able to talk to educators and administrators if this is a struggle for you or if you just accidentally stumbled across something they want to know so that they can partner with you to say, okay, let's try to make sure that that doesn't happen again. You know, how did you accidentally come across that thing? We want to shield you from this. And so they were just explaining to me, like, anytime there's an instance of access, it involves a meeting with the, you know, the administrator, the parent, and maybe a school counselor to talk through it. Not in a shameful way, but in a way that's like, wow, we're sorry that happened to you, or we're sorry this has been a struggle that you've been accessing pornography outside of the school day. We want to come up with a plan because we're going to help you be freed from this. We're going to help you turn from this. We're going to help prevent this accidental exposure again. And so I just, I mean, it just encouraged me so much to think that how schools are trying to be an ally to parents in just a colossal fight. I mean, the ubiquity accessibility of online pornography. Today day is like nothing we've ever seen before in human history. I mean, it's everywhere. It's on the social media apps. It is too easy for a child to accidentally stumble across it and then be curious, linger on something, and then soon the algorithm has fed more of that to the child and sucked them down a dangerous rabbit hole so quickly. And so for schools to be recognizing that and saying to themselves, we want to come alongside students, we want to come alongside parents to help them in this. And I just think the school can provide credible resource for that. But it's actually, it's just created a culture of a lot of transparency, which they just said, that's how we have to fight this. We have to bring it into the light. We don't want students to be ashamed if they came across something or they're struggling with this. We want them to get help. We want them to talk to us, which is why we put this, you know, in the honor code and to really. Yeah. Discourage doing this. That it's not just about accessing it during the school day. We don't want you accessing this in your free time or on your personal devices because we know that's harmful for you. You. So I just.

[Ginny Urch]

It's.

[Claire Morell]

It's amazing to see what role schools can play in helping, you know, change that culture for childhood.

[Ginny Urch]

Yeah, I really got my wheel spinning because I think what it does, Claire, is it's like, okay, all right, here's the baseline. Obviously, it does not make sense for kids to have access to phones during the school day. Obviously. I mean, that is, like, so obvious. I. Anybody would understand, like, you even talk about, okay, if they get it on it during the passing period, five to seven minutes, well, then they're stuck into drop trauma. But of course it's going to be distracting. It's not resting their brain. It's causing this overstimulation. So I think any parent could say, look, the lunchroom is quiet, the school bus is quiet. Like, these things are not good. But what I loved about this book, the Tech Exit, is then you're like, no, let's take it a step further. And what it got my wheel spinning about was, what's my role in that? So maybe our kids are not in a school system. Can't the churches come on? Like, every youth group needs to take these policies and do them. You should have a technology agreement. You have it in your own home with your own child. Like, it gets your through in this mindset of like, oh, no, I want to do more. I want to do more. I can see how that would be so beneficial for everyone collectively. And that's what you talk about. It's like, as one parent does it, it makes it easier for the other parents. Like, be the one that John Acuff says, go first and allow other people the gift of going second. Walk out ahead.

[Claire Morell]

So good.

[Ginny Urch]

Okay. But there was another thing. There's more. There's more. Okay. Then there was this school, because I'm like, all of these ideas are, like, anybody could do them.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah.

[Ginny Urch]

Whether you're, you know, doing hybrid school, whether you're public school, whether you're private school, whether have no kids in any school at all. You're a grandmother, like, whatever. You could be like, you know what? When my grandkids come over, we've got to my house.

[Claire Morell]

That's right.

[Ginny Urch]

Yes, yes, absolutely. Like, let's help each other here. Okay, here's another one. This is a school where they extended the school day from 7 to 7. And they just started to offer fun things for kids to do. Hot dinner, art, drama, dodgeball, basketball, cooking classes, a small fee, instead of the kids going home to their bedroom rooms and their phones. And so they started to do things like, we don't cut anybody from the sports teams.

[Claire Morell]

Yes.

[Ginny Urch]

We just make more teams. Because I have a friend who is a volleyball coach here in the local public school. In the middle school, he cut 99. Zero girls. 90 kids got cut. That means that there are 90 kids who wanted to come and move their bodies and get better at a sport and not be on their phones and could not. And they're never going to get in. Then how do you. How do you get in then? You know, you're not ever going to. And there's no way to sort of break that. And so it said that they just make more teams. They don't cut students. So this is coming together to provide alternatives.

[Claire Morell]

Yes. This was probably what was most exciting to me about the book, is that just these creative ideas. Right. They're solving for something. Why are. Why are kids on screens? Oh, they don't actually have things to do after school, and so that's the default. They just go home to that. But maybe they actually want to play a sport or be in the school play. But I think the problem has been, especially in larger schools, schools, you know, a lot of kids want to do it. It becomes really highly competitive and selective. And so then a small number of students are actually able to participate in extracurriculars. So I loved. Yeah, the schools that you mentioned, just providing extracurricular activities. Like, you know what, we'll just make more teams. You know, it does require some investment of resources on the part of the school, but it doesn't mean it doesn't, like, every team doesn't have to be that elite. Okay, we have a varsity team, but then we can have just a bunch of other teams like rec league style for kids to actually play sports, get their bodies moving. And especially I think I get, you know, a constant kind of feedback I get from people is some of the things that you're arguing for requires a lot from parents or is going to require costs. Okay, now a parent has to go find extracurricular activities and pay for them. And what I would say is it's important. There is actually, sadly, a screen time disparity that kids from lower socioeconomic families are spending on average almost four hours more per day on screens. And it is difficult. Those parents may not have the as much resources or community support. And so I'm like really calling on.

[Ginny Urch]

School schools to step up and churches, public schools, use your building, use your building, provide that.

[Claire Morell]

And I, I even think just at a local level too, like the public schools, a lot of these public school programs have, you know, subsidized hot meals for students who may not be able to afford school lunch, whatever. I'm like, do this for extracurricular activities, like, back parents up for that single working mom that can't be at home to provide these alternatives. Like, let's just do this through the schools. Have extend the school day. Provide alternative options that are either very low cost or free. Like, or yes, churches like what a ministry a church could have by providing an extracurricular activity that's very like free or low cost to say, hey, at our gym, we do dodgeball these days after school you can come and play with your friends. And so I, I 100 agree with you, Jenny. I'm like, there is so much local communities, schools and churches can do to step up. The last thing I'll say on youth groups, I hear from a lot of parents, they're like, I send my kid to the church youth group and all the kids are on smartphones. And you're like, why? And so like you're saying, adopt these policies as a youth group. Just explain to parents, hey, we're, we're smartphone free at youth group. Your kid needs to leave their phone at home or when they come in, it's going in this locker. Like, they're not accessing it during youth group or Even take it a step further.

[Ginny Urch]

Yes. And our youth group is not on Instagram. Like, we're not going to have an Instagram account and have these high school kids make reels to help promote our youth group. We're not going to do that.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah. Have the social media ready. Say if you're in our youth group. We're not going to have social media accounts. Like, there's so much the youth group can do like those schools to change the culture. So I would love to see youth groups step up more in this area and back parents up because they feel like they're doing all this at home and then they're like. But then they go to youth group and all their youth group friends are on Instagram or they've got video games.

[Ginny Urch]

I remember, like, our kids didn't play video games. Do you know the first time they played a video game at church, they've got it, you know, they got it in the elementary thing, you know, trying to be cool. And it's like, no, no, let's not try and be cool cool. Let's actually try and support children and families and teachers and our community in a way that helps kids. I talk with my midwife a lot, so I had to. This is like. It relates, but it's going to seem a little random. I had some births in the hospital and then some births at home with a midwife. And one of the things that we talked about was at that point, like, you know, we didn't have a lot of money and we were struggling to try and get the good food and the different nutrition, the vitamins and all that stuff. And it's. It's kind of like. You notice that thought. I always noticed this. It's like, you either pay now, you're going to pay some now, or you're going to pay later. But if you pay later, you're going to pay more and you're going to pay a lot more.

[Claire Morell]

Yes.

[Ginny Urch]

Like, what's the cost of addiction? What's the cost of pornography addiction? What's the cost of addiction to video games? The kids that won't. That aren't launching into the world. There are heavy costs there.

[Claire Morell]

Heavy.

[Ginny Urch]

It's way more than a dodgeball. It is way more than a kickball, than a baseball bat and a baseball glove. That's what I said. We grew up with a baseball bat and a baseball glove and some ball balls, probably a kickball and a. A bike and a sprinkler and that's what we had. And a hose. I mean, these Are not astronomical costs. They're probably cheaper than the iPhone bill every month or your iPad. And so, I mean, could it be a ministry? Could we say in this community, we're coming together and other families that could donate some dodgeballs.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah.

[Ginny Urch]

For this thing. And I would imagine you would get people.

[Claire Morell]

Yes.

[Ginny Urch]

And so I just, I. I was so encouraged. I was kind of like with the school chapter, I was like, oh, I don't know, whatever, you know, of course. Like they should get phones out of schools. And I was like, no, this is my favorite chapter because my wheels are spinning, spinning, spinning. Like, what can I do? I can be a part of this.

[Claire Morell]

Yeah.

[Ginny Urch]

No matter what your situation is. I love that we are almost out of time. I want people to know that you talk about the laws. Laws help set norm. So this is something that you're working with. Children's lives and innocence are just collateral damage for the sake of profits. Social media functions as a substance and a place. People need to read about that. They need to understand social media. No, no, no. For kids under a certain age and you talk about post tech outcomes like that. The binging later is a myth. There's a lot in the book. We're out of time.

[Claire Morell]

There's so much I know.

[Ginny Urch]

It's called the Tech Exit. A practical guide to freeing kids and teens from smartphones. It will help you. It will help you to be excited to do something different and to be a part of the solution. That's what it did for me. Obviously I learned a lot too. But you're left with a little bit of fire. Like, oh, wait, no, I could do that. I wanna do that. I wanna try that. And I could be a part of that. It is a wonderful book. It just came out. You can get it wherever books are sold. Claire. We always end our show at the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood? That was outside.

[Claire Morell]

Oh man, that's so good. Okay, I will just pick one. But a. A family hike on my birthday, I really loved to just have that family experience. So we would usually on my birthday I would ask if we could do an outside hike and we would just pick a mountain, a trail. I grew up in Vermont, so lots of mountains that you there pack up our lunch, our picnic lunch for the top of the mountain and just. It was just the journey of being on a hike with nothing else to do. Talk to each other, you know, play games, like silly question games and just laugh together. So I have a lot of strong memories of family hikes on my birthday. Just wandering the woods of Vermont and having a great picnic lunch at the top, when you get to the top and get to see an incredible view. So, I mean, that's just one. I have so many I could listen to, but that comes to mind.

[Ginny Urch]

And I mean, it's low cost. You're going to eat lunch anyway, so just throw it in. Throw it in a basket. Throw it in a basket. So many of these things can be very low cost but have such amazing benefits for kids and for families and for teachers and for the community as a whole and for generations yet to come for the long term. Claire, thank you so much for writing this book and thank you for being with us today.

[Claire Morell]

Thank you for having me. Jenny.

[T Mobile Representative]

Hi, Zoe Saldana. Welcome to T Mobile. Here's your new iPhone 16 Pro on us.

[Claire Morell]

Thanks.

[Zoe Saldana]

And here's my old phone to trade in.

[T Mobile Representative]

You don't need a trade in when you switch to T mobile. We'll give you a new iPhone 16 Pro plus we'll help you pay off your old Phone up to 800 bucks and you still get to keep it.

[Claire Morell]

There's always a trade in.

[T Mobile Representative]

Not right now. @ T Mobile.

[Zoe Saldana]

I feel like I have to give you something in return for karma.

[T Mobile Representative]

That's okay.

[Zoe Saldana]

I don't really have much in my purse. Oh, let's see. Hand sanitizer. It's lavender.

[T Mobile Representative]

I'm good. Seriously.

[Zoe Saldana]

Let me check this pocket. Oh, mints.

[T Mobile Representative]

Really, I'm fine.

[Zoe Saldana]

Oh, I have raisins. I'm a mom. Wait, wait one sec. I've got cupcakes in the car.

[T Mobile Commercial]

It's our best iPhone offer ever. Switch to T Mobile. Get a new iPhone 16 Pro with Apple intelligence on us. No trade in needed. We'll even pay off your phone up.

To 800 bucks with 24 monthly bill credits. New line $100 plus a month X experience beyond finance agreement. $999.99 and qualifying ported for well qualified plus tax and $10 connection charge. Payout via virtual prepaid card. Allow 15 days credits and imbalance due if you pay off early or Cancel.

[T Mobile Representative]

See T mobile.com hi Zoe Saldana. Welcome to T Mobile. Here's your new iPhone 16 Pro on us.

[Claire Morell]

Thanks.

[Zoe Saldana]

And here's my old phone to trade in.

[T Mobile Representative]

You don't need a trade in when you switch to T mobile. We'll give you a new iPhone 16 Pro plus we'll help you pay off your old Phone up to 800 bucks and you still get to keep it.

[Claire Morell]

There's always a trade in.

[T Mobile Representative]

Not right now. At T Mobile.

[Zoe Saldana]

I feel like I have to give you something in return for karma.

[T Mobile Representative]

That's okay.

[Zoe Saldana]

I don't really have much in my purse. Oh, let's see. Hand sanitizer. It's lavender.

[T Mobile Representative]

I'm good. Seriously.

[Zoe Saldana]

Let me check this pocket. Oh, mints.

[T Mobile Representative]

Really, I'm fine.

[Zoe Saldana]

Oh, I have raisins. I'm a mom. Wait, wait one sec. I've got cupcakes in the car.

[T Mobile Commercial]

It's our best iPhone offer ever. Switch to T Mobile, get a new iPhone 16 Pro with Apple intelligence on us. No trade in needed. We'll even pay off your phone up.

To 800 bucks with 24 monthly bill credits. New line $100 plus a month on experience beyond Finance Agreement 999.99 and qualify imported for well qualified plus tax and $10 connection charge. Payout via virtual prepaid card. Allow 15 days credits and imbalance due if you pay off earlier. Cancel CT Com.