1KHO 547: How to Keep Youth Sports from Turning Kids into Commodities | Brian Smith and Ed Uszynski, Away Game

Summary

The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast Summary

Episode Title: How to Keep Youth Sports from Turning Kids into Commodities | Brian Smith and Ed Uszynski, Away Game
Host: Ginny Urich
Release Date: August 12, 2025

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Introduction

In episode 547 of The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast, host Ginny Urich engages in a profound discussion with Brian Smith and Ed Uszynski, authors of Away Game: A Christian Parents Guide to Navigating Youth Sports. The conversation delves into the evolving culture of youth sports, examining how commercialization and parental pressure can transform what should be a joyful experience into a high-stakes endeavor for children.

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The Evolution of Youth Sports Culture

Ginny Urich opens the discussion by highlighting the shift in youth sports from community-based, low-cost activities to high-pressure, expense-driven programs. She references her reading of similar works, noting how these themes reveal underlying human behaviors and societal changes.

Ed Uszynski emphasizes that the current sports culture could not have existed a century ago. He attributes this transformation to entrepreneurs recognizing children as commodities and creating a multi-billion-dollar industry fueled by the fear of missing out (FOMO). This commercialization has professionalized youth sports, even at the collegiate level, eroding the original essence of play and amateurism.

"The current sport culture could have never existed 100 years ago in America… it's just everything is professionalized all the way down really to youth sports."
(Ed Uszynski, 02:33)

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The Impact of Commercialization on Children

Brian Smith adds that commercialization doesn't inherently mean ill intentions but escalates expectations once money becomes involved. He discusses how significant investments in youth sports create unspoken pressures for coaches and referees to perform flawlessly, promising elite outcomes that rarely materialize. This disconnect between promise and reality leads to parental frustration and stress.

"Youth sports promises a lot but rarely delivers on that promise."
(Brian Smith, 04:05)

Ed Uszynski echoes these sentiments, explaining that parents often internalize expectations, believing that their financial and emotional investments are directly linked to their children's success, which isn't the case.

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Parental Involvement and Its Consequences

Urlich reflects on her own limited sports background and her observations as a parent. She articulates the inherent benefits of sports—building friendships, fostering quick thinking, encouraging physical activity—but juxtaposes them against the prevalent culture of excessive stress on winning.

Brian Smith discusses the psychological impacts of parental behavior during and after games. He introduces the "peak end rule," a psychological principle where memories of experiences are heavily influenced by the peak moment and the ending. In youth sports, the post-game car ride often becomes a negative experience due to parental criticism, leading to a lasting negative perception of sports.

"There's a psychological principle called the peak end rule… the kids are remembering the entire experience as pressure-filled."
(Brian Smith, 11:23)

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The Silent Killer: Post-Game Criticism

Ed Uszynski and Brian Smith delve into the detrimental effects of post-game debriefs. Parents often unload critiques on their children while driving home, exacerbating negative emotions and contributing to the high dropout rates in youth sports.

"Kids don't want to talk about the sport after the game. They just want to listen to music and unwind."
(Brian Smith, 12:23)

Ed shares his personal struggle with this dynamic, acknowledging the internal conflict parents face between wanting to support their children and inadvertently adding to their stress.

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The Decline of Sports Officials

The conversation shifts to the dwindling number of qualified sports officials, a consequence of increasing parental hostility and the professionalization of youth sports. Brian Smith explains that many referees are now drawn to higher-paying elite leagues, leaving local games with inexperienced officials who struggle to maintain order.

"Sports officials arguably are the most important people in organized sports. They are an endangered species."
(Ginny Urich, 24:05)

Both authors advocate for parents to show appreciation towards referees by simple gestures like shaking hands, which can humanize officials and reduce tension on the sidelines.

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The Importance of Play and Perspective

Urlich underscores the value of unstructured play, contrasting it with the overbearing nature of modern youth sports. She cites Dr. Peter Gray, who emphasizes that favorite childhood memories often involve freedom and independence away from adult supervision.

Ed Uszynski and Brian Smith highlight the necessity of maintaining perspective—recognizing that a game is just a game and does not determine a child’s future or self-worth. They stress the importance of play for fostering creativity, decision-making, and resilience in children.

"Our kids don't care about winning as much as we do."
(Ed Uszynski, 47:10)

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Recommendations for Parents

The authors offer actionable advice for parents seeking to foster a healthier youth sports environment:

1. Adopt the Discipline of Silence: Refrain from critiquing or coaching during and after games. Instead, allow children to reflect on their experiences without external pressure.

2. Show Appreciation for Officials: Simple acts of kindness towards referees can improve interactions and reduce stress for both officials and young athletes.

3. Encourage Unstructured Play: Facilitate opportunities for children to engage in free play outside of organized sports to develop social and cognitive skills organically.

4. Shift Focus from Winning to Growth: Emphasize personal development, teamwork, and the joy of participation over the final score or accolades.

"We want to help parents realize it really does start with us… speak life into our kids later at a time when they can receive it because they've made the connection of my mom or dad's practicing this and I'm learning from them."
(Brian Smith, 31:44)

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Conclusion

Away Game: A Christian Parents Guide to Navigating Youth Sports offers a critical examination of the current state of youth sports, advocating for a return to foundational values of play, friendship, and personal growth. Through their dialogue, Brian Smith and Ed Uszynski provide parents with the tools and mindset necessary to support their children in a way that prioritizes well-being over competitive success. The episode serves as a compelling call to action for parents to reassess their roles in their children's athletic endeavors, ensuring that sports remain a positive and enriching part of childhood.

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Favorite Childhood Memories

The episode concludes with the hosts sharing nostalgic memories of carefree childhood activities:

Brian Smith reminisces about spending hours rollerblading and playing makeshift hockey in his cul-de-sac with his brother, highlighting the pure joy of unstructured play.

"Some of the best times growing up were just skating around pelting tennis balls at my brother as he played goalie."
(Brian Smith, 51:54)

Ed Uszynski recalls trips to Cedar Point, America's Roller Coast, where he and his friends would spend entire days enjoying rides and games without adult supervision.

"We would go there from the crack of dawn until they threw us out at the end of the day… Just a blast to do that outside."
(Ed Uszynski, 53:16)

Ginny Urich connects these memories to the overarching theme of the episode, emphasizing the freedom and independence that characterize cherished childhood experiences.

"Dr. Peter Gray talks about that… They have that freedom. They're off doing their own thing."
(Ginny Urich, 54:05)

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Final Thoughts

Brian Smith and Ed Uszynski conclude the episode by affirming the positive nature of their book and expressing gratitude for sharing their insights. They reiterate the importance of returning to the core values of youth sports to ensure that children can enjoy and benefit from their athletic experiences without undue pressure and commercialization.

"We're trying to help parents enjoy sport. We're trying to bring joy and play back."
(Brian Smith, 43:56)

"This book is a very positive book… we're trying to give ourselves permission to do things differently."
(Ed Uszynski, 43:56)

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For more insights and resources, listeners are encouraged to visit the Christian Athlete website for bonus content related to the book Away Game.

Transcript

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[Ginny Urich]

Welcome to 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Ginny Urich. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside. And I have some fantastic guests today that are going to be talking about something that we are almost all dealing with, which is youth sports, the youth sports culture. Brian Smith and Ed Uszynski are here. Welcome.

[Brian Smith]

Thanks for having us, Jenny.

[Ed Uszynski]

Thanks, Jenny.

[Ginny Urich]

Okay, Ed is a total trooper because he's sitting in his car because there's no power in Ohio. There was just some major storms. So, Ed, thank you for your commitment.

[Ed Uszynski]

I hope it works. I hope it keeps working.

[Ginny Urich]

It is working. So you have a book coming out and it will be out by the time this podcast goes live. It's called Away Game A Christian Parents Guide to Navigating Youth Sports. And this is a fantastic book. Now, I am not sporty. I did like a swim team until I was like seven and pretty much that's it. So it's not part of my world, but it is a part of your world when you become a parent. And it's just a part of culture. Culture, like this pressure for sports, sports, sports. And I have read a few books about sports even though, you know, it's not really like, my thing. And I have a love them. I read Linda Flanagan's book Take Back the Game, and I read a book called Beyond Winning by Kim John Payne and Luis Fernando Yosa. And what I found is that these books really reveal a lot about human nature. They help you learn what to do in stressful situations. Like, I was reading your book Away Game, and I was about to go speak at a conference and I was like, this is helping me. This is helping me. And it also points you to what really matters. I have surprisingly, really gotten so much out of these books that are geared toward talking about sports because really the themes are very overarching. So I would love to start here. Sports have changed and in this book, Away Game, you go through the history of that. You talk about how it used to be. It was like the entry fee was small and the parents maybe were there, they weren't there, it didn't matter. You did it in your local community. You came and you loved it. And then, you know, it was over and you played with your friends for the rest of the summer. Can you talk about what changed in a little bit of the why?

[Ed Uszynski]

Yeah, and we devote a whole chapter this. Actually it's one of my favorite chapters to write. Just because I love thinking about how change happens in culture. Because the current sport culture could have never existed 100 years ago in America. You know, there was just a number of interlocking threads that took place and we won't go through all of them, but one of the biggest ones is just the recognition on behalf of entrepreneurs that kids could be commodities that you could make money off of putting programs together and creating a, a sense of fomo, you know, a sense of a fear of missing out or a fear that you're not keeping up if you're not a part of this. It's just great marketing and you can make a multi billion dollar industry out of that was one significant change that happened. And just the, you know, even as we live right now, that the idea of amateurism, even at the collegiate level is just gone. I mean, it's just everything is professionalized all the way down really to youth sports. Brian and I have been talking about this for almost a decade as we've been parents of our own kids and we work in a ministry where we work with college athletes. And so we've just been kind of marveling at how the whole idea of just play and amateurism is just, it's gone. It's almost impossible to find anywhere. So those are, those are two big reasons, Brian, would you want to throw anything else on top of that as far as how we got here? Yeah.

[Brian Smith]

And I would add to that, it doesn't mean that all entrepreneurs are ill intentioned by any means. It's just that once, once money gets involved, it begins to elevate the expectation. Then for us as parents and some youth sport coaches, when you start investing a lot into something, it creates this, whether communicated or non communicated expectation that the refs are going to be outstanding, the coaches are going to know exactly what they're talking about and make all the perfect substitutions. And for those of us involved in esports, we know that nothing ever happens perfectly. But when we've invested so much and we've been promised by the system essentially that if you just do this, this and this out on the other End is going to pop this amazing athlete who's going to get a full ride scholarship to a Division 1 university. They're going to win a gold medal, whatever it is. And we get to see firsthand actually that it doesn't work like that. And it makes us then who have invested all this time, effort and money really frustrated because youth sports promises a lot but rarely delivers on that promise.

[Ed Uszynski]

Yeah, and you want Brian, I like that you said that. It creates a stress amongst us as parents that we expect to see the end result in our 13 year old. So all these promises that are made about being at the elite and being part of this elite program or a select program or different travel, travel clubs, the expectations that come with that are that our kid will be like a pro. Now I mean again, nobody would actually say that out loud, but that is subtly what happens. And so there's just this frustration and a stress that's created even inside of us as parents when it looks like our kids not getting better or they're not operating the way we think they should be because we paid this amount of money to be a part of this. And Brian and I feel it too. I mean it's a very real feeling and we have to step back and say what's happening inside of us and is this a good thing or a bad thing? And is it creating a bad. Are we actually contributing to creating a bad environment for our kids just to enjoy sports? Because we've been so absorbed into this culture that's not out for our kids best interest Oftentimes it's all interesting to think about.

[Ginny Urich]

You start the book in this fantastic way with this email of this parent who sends this email and they're like, I've got this concern and I don't like this and I don't like that. And as a parent you're like yes, yes, yes. And it's provides you this avenue to start to think deeply through these different cultural changes that have happened. So you, you're talking about your own sports experience growing up. You played sports, you loved it. We have kids and for me as a mom, I'm like, sports are great. Sports allow for our kids to build friendships. They allow for them to be in stressful situations and to think quick on their feet. They allow our kids to work with another adult, to work with a coach. They keep them active, they're off their phones for that time. So there is this wonderful part of it and yet they're this culture. In this one email that a parent sends you, they say, look there's too much stress on winning. Can we talk about that? I'm like, why do we care so much about winning? I mean the, to me as a mom, I'm like, the point is just so that they have friends and that they're moving their bodies and enjoying that part of their life in their childhood.

[Brian Smith]

Yeah. And we, we are clear with everyone. We talk about like sports, you should, there should be this like desire to want to win and to play well, even if you're playing board games with your family. Like it, it's, it's fun when everybody's trying their best to win. I have a buddy who is a golf coach at Kelvin College. Just outside or just in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and he says all the time that sports only work if you care. So there is this idea of like, part of what makes sports fun is when you have people on both sides competing and trying to win. What we're trying to help parents see in this book though is while that can be true, it does not need to be the highest value for parents or kids that you can still want to win and desire to win and to pursue trying your absolute best. But you can have greater wins in mind besides what's reflected on the scoreboard and we write a lot about that in the book of what would it look like for parents to, to reorder some of these wins in their life and stack closer towards the top kids formation and character above what we actually see on the scoreboard.

[Ed Uszynski]

Winning's always been important in sports like you're saying, Brian, but that's really another cultural shift that's happened, Jenny. And maybe I always wind up blaming espn, but I'm sure there's lots of other reasons. ESPN has just been the loudest voice piece for this that has made it so that the only way that we measure your, your value as an athlete is by how many championships you've won. That's what all the talk shows do and you. And it's not how many do you have to win to be considered good? It's always more and more. So again, we're all about winning. But when that becomes the highest value like Brian said, or it becomes the only thing that we're worried about with our 6 year olds and we've all seen this on the sideline at soccer games or basketball games, just this intensity that just doesn't seem to match up with what is actually happening on the court where there's a bunch of kids that don't even really know what they're doing yet. And yet having two more points at the end of this game is going to determine whether our weekend is good or not.

[Ginny Urich]

Yeah, it's stuff you have to think about because you talk about how the more that we spend, the less our kids actually enjoy the sport. That has been proven. And you talk about having perspective. Perspective is the ability to zoom out. Here's what's interesting, because, you know, it's like we're concerned about winning. And you wrote this. The Little League World series started in 1947. So it has been decades after decades of this Little League World Series. The best of the best of these kids that are going to play baseball. 1947, out of the thousands of kids who have participated in this elite event, only I was shocked. Only 64 have made it to the major league.

[Ed Uszynski]

Isn't that crazy? It's just crazy, isn't it?

[Ginny Urich]

So it's like it doesn't matter the, you know, the winning. And, and I liked this. There were so many practical ideas in there about like, the, soccer is a.

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Part of our day.

[Ginny Urich]

We know the game, that's a part of our day. And then we have this, that it's not the main thing. And so the, the winning. I like that. Sports only work if you care. I mean, all of this, that's what I'm saying. It really relates to all sorts of things in life. Like when you talk about kids becoming highly sought after products with dollar signs attached, I'm like, oh, that's happening everywhere. You know, that's happening in their toys, it's happening in their food, it's happening with the social media. So so many of these things sort of bleed out into all of culture and it really makes you think. So I wanted to talk about a couple of things I'd never heard of or considered that are in this book, Away Game. One of them is this. You talk about the silent killer, the silent killer of kids desire to play sports, their least favorite moment in sports. Can you talk about what that is?

[Ed Uszynski]

Yes. Maybe fittingly, as I'm sitting in my car in the driveway, it is the drive home after the game. And again, Jenny, there's research that's been done on this. There's been tons of interviews that have been done with kids that they wind up saying that the worst part of their sport experience almost always goes to what happens after the game on the drive home. And we've talked about that for years. Brian, why don't you grab the baton and run with it here a little bit? Because we've talked about this so much. And it's still so difficult even for us to do this. Well, because of what we want to do versus what our kids actually need from us in that moment.

[Brian Smith]

Yeah. So, I mean, let's start with what we want to do and what we as parents often do. Our kids get in the car after a game and we have our list of things that they did well, things that they need to work on, things that they did wrong. And we essentially unload on them while they're in the back seats. We become the ESPN analysts for our kids sporting events as they're driving back to our home with us and letting them essentially analyzing the entire game. And what the research says is kids don't want that. They don't want it. And why is it making them miserable and why is it making kids. 70% of kids quit sports before the age of 13. This is one of the top reasons. It's because we did a little bit more digging into this. It's because of this. It's a psychological principle called the peak end rule. And the peak end rule is going to show that we as humans remember events in our life that based on the peak moment of that event and then how the event ends. And for kids in sports, you think like, yeah, there's going to be peak moments. It could be a goal scored or maybe the peak was this high moment was actually something bad that happened to them, but just this really intense moment. But then how do all sporting events end for kids? It's the car ride home. And so if kids are remembering the totality of their experience in sport as mom and dad are criticizing me or they're, they're correcting me, instead of using that time to connect with them, they're going to experience sports as this like pressure filled environment where they always know the second they get into the car, mom and dad are going to have something to criticize or correct. And it's exhausting. It's exhausting. And the research says that and we feel it too. I have the last couple of years started doing this with my kids and it has been a game changer. Just, just for my own sanity. I think for their hopeful longevity in sport as well is we get in the car after the game, close the door and I say, is there anything you want to talk about from the game today? And I think I've had one time in the last few years where a kid has said, yeah, I actually want to talk about this. But 99.9% of the time it's, no, I'm good. Can we just listen to music. And so we crank up the music and we sing on the way home. Kids don't want to talk about the sport after the game. Like they in the car at home. They just. They want to listen to music and unwind.

[Ed Uszynski]

They don't. So, Jenny, what's so interesting in trying this? And again, Brian. I have four kids. Brian has three. Three of mine are college age and I have an eighth grader and his are all kind of in those preteen years. So we've been talking about this for a while now. And just how do we do this better? And it's so interesting as I've. As I've disciplined myself to ask that question. And when they say no, what's happening inside of me is worth talking about with friends. But it's frustrating to me. I feel like they should want to talk about the game. I feel like they should want to get better. I feel like they should be concerned about this or that that happened. And most of the time they're just not. Now again, and Brian and I have said this, when there's a character thing that happens, there's pouting that we saw on the bench. There was, you know, some kind of outburst that took when they're just obviously not being a good teammate, those things can be addressed right away. We're not saying that you don't, you know, you just go silent treatment on yourself no matter what happens. But I think if we're honest with ourselves, and again, we say ourselves, the people that we have these conversations with struggle with this too. Maybe your listeners are in a different place, but our tendency is to want to fix them. Our tendency is to want to get them to become what we want them to be. Our tendency is to fill some void in ourselves because. Because of our own regrets, maybe from our own past experiences when we were their age. And we don't even. This stuff isn't even really conscious to us. And it's really good, I think, to become more self aware of why am I feeling what I'm feeling as a parent right now? Why am I forcing them to be where I want them to be instead of just letting them not care about it? They just want to play, which is hard to do. That's hard to do if you paid $1,500.

[Ginny Urich]

Yes. But also play is so valuable. And that's the other thing. I mean, I think we've completely discounted play. I'm like, I want my kid to be quick on their feet and I want them to be able to Adjust. I don't want the parents yelling from the stands. I think that's ridiculous. We're going to talk about that in a minute.

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[Ginny Urich]

You when I was reading your book, I was getting ready to speak at this event and it was, it just bled into my own experience where I was like, I'm nervous. What's the difference between nerves and anxiety? You're going through this in the book. You're talking about comparison and competition. Anyway, so much of it was relatable to this completely separate experience of going to do something else that's kind of high pressure. And I thought, well my goodness, if I go up and speak at an event, there is no way that I want someone to analyze that 15 minutes after I'm done. Are you kidding me? No, I don't want to talk about it at all. Maybe in a month you could be like, hey, you know what? When you speak, you know, I don't know, you touch your hair too much, whatever. But I in that moment, no, because it was already high pressure enough and I just need to be able to sit with it myself and move through. And there is that saying, all's well that ends well. And I think it's true. There's been so many times like you have this hectic time with your kids. You know, it's a really bad day, but then at night everybody sits and reads a story together and you're like, okay, that wasn't that bad. All's well that ends well. So you really have to think about the car ride home. The car ride home is the silent killer of kids desire to play sports. It is their least favorite moment in sports. And criticism is sticky, especially when the recipient is already feeling negative emotions. And you could see it's like that's when it would happen. They lost. So you're like, well, if you would have done this or if you could have done that, you know, so they're, they're already in this negative emotional state and you're just piling on. Let's talk about the referees. This is another thing. Okay. Officials are becoming extinct. Ed, you were talking about your son Jack. He got certified to be a soccer referee for the ymca. You're like, the ymca. It's like whatever. I mean, isn't that just kind of like whatever? It's not travel elite, it's ymca. He signs up to be. He does his certification. He quit after one season.

[Ed Uszynski]

Yeah. And Jack is our. He's the most unflappable of our four children. So I was shocked when he said he wasn't going to do it anymore. And I asked him why, obviously. And he said, I can't handle everybody screaming at me and I'm afraid that I'm going to lash back out at parents or I'm going to do something that I regret. And again, he was 18 when he said that. I'm afraid of what my reaction is going to be. And again, I'm just shaking my head at that because I know that Brian and I have been talking about this and we're going to write about it. And there it is, right in my own home. Like my 18 year old doesn't even want to have any part of it. And it was parents and coaches that were ripping into him. I mean, he was giving me. I'm not going to recount all of it right now, but he was in detail telling me how this coach was reaming him out and you know, confronting him about calls that he was making or not making. And you know, he doesn't, he's just trying to figure out how to be a ref.

[Ginny Urich]

Yeah.

[Ed Uszynski]

And has other things that he could be doing with his time, which is true for 18 year olds and 38 year olds. There's other things they can be doing than to come here and try to help your kid be able to play a game that has rules and mediate it and you're making his or her life miserable in doing it. So again our, one of the disciplines that we've talked about is just a discipline of silence in regards to the refs, which is very difficult to do. I am not going to yell anything out in the direction of the person that's mediating the game. Try that sometime listeners and see if you're the type of person that's really vocal. It's really difficult. And you start to notice when you, when you kind of grab onto a vow of silence for a period of time. You start to listen and hear what everybody else is doing and it's like, wow, I've been doing this same thing and this is not pretty.

[Brian Smith]

Yeah, I've, I've actually started before my kids games. I will go up and shake the hand of the refs or the officials. One to just be a kind human. But also I know for my own heart if I can humanize somebody, it makes me less likely to be that parent on the sideline to say things that I shouldn't. If I, if I have a relational connection with them on the front end, it's not so that my kids can get the calls later. It's so that when the refs do make calls, a poor call. I know Tom is just a 16 year old kid who's getting paid $12 an hour and he should not care about what's going on as much as I do because I have a lot invested. He does not have hardly anything invested and he's not getting compensated much either. And so that, that's what makes it challenging as well. If you think about why. Why are officials becoming more and more extinct? Yes, it's because of parents. It's also because of the system that we created within youth sports where we now have all these different elite clubs and travel leagues and you have rec leagues and YMCA and there's so many different opportunities and spaces for kids to play now. And where are the best refs going to go? They're probably going to go where they're getting paid the most and that's going to be the elite level. And so as you trickle down you're like on Craigslist or Facebook Marketplace looking for refs for these local games and it makes sense why they're not great. And we've all experienced what happens in sports when you're playing with refs who don't know the Rules. It just. It's hard to play with disorder. Yeah.

[Ed Uszynski]

When Brian, you said that, you shake their hand. And let's even clarify this. You've talked about doing that as a coach where you've already got direct access to the ref because you're standing there with them, you know, before the game, after the game, during the game. But we'd even say it's not out of line to do that as a parent, that as you approach fields, again, just to be in the practice, as you walk by a ref, to say something positive to him or to even thank him just for being out here today or whatever. I mean, think about how radical that.

[Brian Smith]

I do that as a parent. Yeah, I do that as a parent all the time.

[Ginny Urich]

Well, thank you. Because you can't do the game if you don't have the ref.

[Ed Uszynski]

Yeah. What's the, you know, what's the day been like for you? You know, how many have you done so far today? You just say something like that to him and it's like, oh, I'm on game eight. And it's like, dude, that's a long day.

[Ginny Urich]

Yeah, I got six kids at home. I mean, that's how it is. Sometimes they're making a little extra money for their family. And you, like you say, if there's no ref, there's no game. Sports officials arguably are the most important people in organized sports. They are an endangered species. And when they're gone, then you're getting them replaced with minimum wage kids.

[Nurture Life Ad]

So choose your battles.

[Ginny Urich]

Choose your battles. 80% of officials quit after just two years. You talked about, Brian, that. Well, one of you said it. The discipline of silence in regard to the refs, a discipline of science in regard to the refs. And you were talking, Brian, in the book, really honest, you said, I started the chaos. This is one particular instance you were talking about. I pulled the pin from the grenade and tossed it to the other parents who were just waiting for the encouragement to explode. My preoccupation with the referees took my eyes off my own kid. And this is a book that's geared for Christian parents. It's called Away Game A Christian Parents Guide to Navigating Youth Sports. And one of the fruits of the spirit is self control. So I love that. I love that you would have. You would showcase so much to your children, to other children, to your community, if you have the discipline of staying silent in regards to the refs.

[Ed Uszynski]

And can we just throw this out on the table again? As. As two people. I grew up in a football coach's home. I've been around sports my whole life. Maybe different than even what you described for yourself. I've married a two sport athlete. I minister among athletes. The reality is, and I get frustrated at officials too when I watch a game as a fan, yes, but the reality is we are not losing the game because of even a handful of calls that don't go our way. There are a million other reasons why we're losing. If in fact we're on the losing side of things. It's not because of the refs. It really isn't. There may be something that really stands out to us and it's just because come easy for us to assume that the reason, or at least to blame that the reason why we're down right now is because of somebody else's erroneous judgment. And that's just human nature again, isn't it? Just to. We're going to find someone to blame and we don't really want to blame our kid who has missed eight out of 10 layups across the game. And if you just made a few more of them or whatever.

[Ginny Urich]

Yeah, you wouldn't be, you wouldn't be in that position for that tough call that happens right at the end on the buzzer beater or, or whatever. I mean, you wrote this. Our kids need perspective. We all need perspective. Like you talk about needing perspective and play and principles. Basically, we all need these. You have to be able to zoom out and know that a game is just a game and it holds no weight for anything in the future. It holds no weight, which I feel like there would be a lot of parents, I would argue they would say, no, it does hold weight. What about college? What about the recruiter that's there? But then you go through that statistic from the Little League World Series. If your kid made it to the Little League World Series, I would think they're going pro for sure. Only 64 have made it to the major league. So these are things that are important to know about really. It's just about the winning. Like, you know, you say, okay, sports only work if you care. But the winning, there's. There's too much stress on it. Lots of things to think about in your family. Okay, I want to talk about this because this is the thing that irritates me the absolute most and I cannot stand it. And I'm so excited to talk about it. I swam. That's. That's the only sport I did. I think I played T ball. I play the piano. So I swam on this team called the dolphins, which is a great team. I was always in the slowest lane. And I remember going to meets I only did a couple times, but this is as a little kid in elementary school. And I remember mothers walking along the edge of the pool while their kid is swimming, screaming at them, faster. I mean, the kid is in the water and I remember thinking as like a second grader, that's ridiculous. What in the heck is going on? That kid is underwater. They cannot hear you. They have a swim cap. There's already so much stress and I would think, I'm so glad that that is not my parent. I just thought it was ridiculous.

[Ed Uszynski]

I'll be at a swim meet tonight watching that. Actually, I'll be a timer at a meet tonight for my 8th grader and I get to watch that again tonight. So what is that again? Isn't it. Doesn't it have something more to do with what's going on inside of us? Is there some value to encouraging in a race, whether it's a swim race or, you know, you're at a track meet? I've thought about this because I just sat through a track season that I really do think there's something different about, you know, yelling go or you got this or whatever. Well, the last 50 yards of 100 yard race or whatever, of a 200, you actually can see kids move faster as fans are cheering for them as they're running in front of the crowd. But most sports, Jenny, to your point, it's actually counterproductive. It creates more stress. The yelling does, the urgency, the desperation in our voices creates more stress in them. And it covers up again something that's going on inside of me as a parent that so needs them to win almost for me to be able to feel good about myself. And again, that's a hard thing to say out loud. It feels yucky to say that. But most of the time I think that's what's going on. So does Brian again, because we've been talking about this for over a decade with each other now. There's something going on inside of us that needs to be checked. It's not that there's something wrong with our kid.

[Brian Smith]

Yeah. And so taking it further too, why does this matter if our kids are hearing us and experiencing us as being out of control maniacs during, during the game or during a swim meet, whatever it would be. And then later in the day when they're playing with their friends and they get out of control and they hear us come in and try to correct or try to Teach them something about self control, whether they can put words to it or not, they're going to feel this disconnect of it seems like mom and dad, you often are out of control when I'm trying to play. And yet the second I get out of control, you want to step in and try to correct me. And so there really is this. Like we need to be the ones who embody it and model it to our kids if we expect them to do it on their own or learn from us in the process. And that's what the book is about. We want to help parents realize it really does start with us that by just whether it's being silent or cheering in a better way, it could position ourselves as disciplers to really speak life into our kids later at a time when they can receive it because they've made the connection of my mom or dad's practicing this and I'm learning from them.

[Ed Uszynski]

That's good. Brian, can I go back and say this? Jenny? And I think this also relates, you mentioned still this idea inside of us, even if we don't say it out loud, that we're hoping that our kid will be a college athlete or even a starter on their, on their varsity team. Maybe they're at a big school where there's tons of competition. Again, this is research, but it's also just our personal experience. And I'm going to say this to relieve you as a parent. If your child is going to wind up being a college athlete, it's not going to be because of you. It's going to be because there's already something inside of them that makes them part of that less than 1% of the population that loves the grind already. Not because it was forced on them, because they just love it. They want to get better all the time. They have natural ability that God gave them that you can put them through all the training your kids do, all the training in the world. But if they don't have that natural thing, they're not going to be playing in college. And again, I want to say this positively so that that can just relieve the stress. Your kid will be found if they're good enough to play at that level and they will stand out on their own because they'll have a motivation and a desire. I was just at a camp, I'm going to say this real quick. I was watching these kids play pickleball. There was a 12 year old girl who was purposely using her offhand to hit backhands because she kept failing at it. And I know, she's actually my, my niece. And I said, no, there's, there's something special about that. And again, that doesn't mean everybody needs to start hounding her. And she actually is a pretty special athlete as a 12 year old. But that is different than what most kids would do. She's trying to fix something that's broke about herself and it's like, okay, well, I would keep an eye on that. But again, if she winds up, great. If anything, the parents may end up ruining her because they put too much. Not these specific parents, but I'm just saying parents put too much pressure on that kid and they end up burning out by the time they're 17 and don't want to have anything else to do with it, even though they're naturally gifted at it.

[Ginny Urich]

There's a lot here. It feels like there's a lot on the line, but I think you really have to think through, like, does it really matter? It's all about the college. Like, it's like the, the marketing and the full ride and the admissions and that's a lot. In this book, Linda Flanagan talks about it too.

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[Ginny Urich]

But I just think this don't coach during the game. Don't coach during the game. It's five words. It's in the book. Please don't do it. I hate it. I think it's so annoying and I think it's stupid. It's so stupid. I'm like, how is a kid that's running down a basketball court and you're going to be like, sideline, sideline. I don't even know what people are. Box out, box out. Like, whatever. I'm like, that's not doing anything. And I feel like it communicates a lack of trust in the coach. It communicates a lack of trust in the child. Why can't they just make their own freaking decisions? This really, it really bothers me. I'm like, these people are idiots. What are they doing? Why are they yelling at these kids? And not like, if the point part of it is to, like, have this quick, adaptable brain because you can make these snap decisions and know how to move your body, then stop trying to tell them what to do. You had these sentences in here. Often their growth in sports gets stunted by others telling them what to do instead of figuring it out on their own. The kids say, we don't want you treating us like remote control cars and telling us exactly what to do. And it says, aside from exasperating our kids and exasperating everybody else, because I'm annoyed we're and this is happening. Like, I was like, what is going on? I remember our kids were doing like rec soccer. It's six weeks and they're four and I'm like, people are yelling on the sidelines. I'm like, what is, what the heck? I don't even get it. We're robbing them of the chance to figure things. To me this is like completely like intuitive. Like you should just know this if you're yelling at the kids. We're robbing them of the chance to figure things out on their own. It's like a control piece. Just stop, don't go. There we go.

[Brian Smith]

Yeah.

[Ginny Urich]

We've never talked about this on the show, but it has bugged me for, I mean, over 15 years. I'm like, what the heck are these parents doing? What do they think they're doing? Just have some self control and shut.

[Brian Smith]

Your mouth and we talk. I mean, this is what we're talking about, right? It's. We've invested so much into what we call the, the youth sports industrial complex. We've invested so much into this system and we enjoy sports and we enjoy watching our kids play. But when the whistle blows or the gun goes off, whatever it is, there's just something inside of us that's, that's out of control. Oftentimes it's well intentioned. But you, I mean, I don't know if I would call them idiots or just like ill and they just need coat like parents need coaching. It's like we all need our own coach in the stands to say, actually you yelling run, run, run, go, go, go is not helping. Do you understand why they're already running? They're already going towards the ball. They don't need to udl. Go, go, go.

[Ginny Urich]

Yeah. Or box out. Box out.

[Brian Smith]

Yeah.

[Ginny Urich]

The coach probably taught that. I don't even know what box out is. But there's a coach.

[Ed Uszynski]

Well, in one, one parents yelling pass. One parent's yelling shooting one parents yet so everybody's yelling. Contradictory messages too. So who do we listen to? Keep going, Brian.

[Brian Smith]

Yeah, so it's in the book. But we know this intuitively as parents. When our kids are playing in the yard or they're doing something around the house and we're just letting them do it, what's happening? They're, they're learning what works and what doesn't work. There's freedom to try things and fail. And when they fail, it doesn't mean they're a failure. It just means they're learning that there's a better way to do it. But the only way they're going to experience that in sport is if we as parents stop screaming at them and let Them shoot instead of pass, Let them pass instead of shoot. Let them choose not to box out and go after and let them experience what happens when they do or don't do that. So then next, like at this time in their life, their brains are super formative and so they're going to learn things a lot quicker if they experience it and make the decisions instead of us programming that into them at a young age. So we, we as parents want our kids to grow up and make decisions and be creative and figure out what works and what doesn't. The best way to do that is to give them a little coaching on the front end, let them play and let them get after it for an hour and let them learn and see what happens.

[Ed Uszynski]

Brian, what would you say to this though? What if you feel like the coach of the team really doesn't know what he or she is doing and you know, more, which almost every parent seems to think that in their sport, especially if they played the sport, what would you say? I'm putting you on the spot just to keep going with this. I mean, does that not still hold true, that even if maybe the coach isn't giving them the best instructions, that it's not that helpful for us to be coaching in the middle of the game?

[Brian Smith]

Yeah, con, I mean, context matters. That question. If we're talking about under the age of 13 and our kids in a YMCA league and we have very little invested, it should not matter at all if we're paying thousands of thousands of dollars for a travel league and the coach doesn't know what they're doing, made.

[Ed Uszynski]

A bad choice, made a bad choice.

[Brian Smith]

And probably need to finish the season out and then find a different league or coach to be in. But yes, the majority of the time the kids will figure it out. If they're going to be what we think they can be, they're going to figure it out. And if they do, great, if they don't, great, it's. It's not the end of the world if your kid is not the 2% that make make it to Division 1 college sports on a scholarship. Like it is not the end of the world. And what Ed was saying earlier is it is not dependent on how much money you spend to get them there. And so if your kids don't get there, it's not because you spent, you didn't spend enough money.

[Ginny Urich]

Yeah. Linda McGurk who talks about kids getting outside, she says there's many ways to a great life besides an Ivy League education. So same thing. It's like there's many ways to a great life whether the sports are involved or not involved. And, and I do think it's like because of ESPN and because of all these championships, you do see the, the triumph. So like, okay, Brian, you're a Michigan guy. So there was like a Michigan, that U of M football won something like maybe a year ago or two years ago. And there was a boy named J.J. in, you know, like, and he was I think the star quarterback. Anyway, you're like, this is cool. Like, you're like, if that's your kid, I mean that it's very portrayed as triumphant and exciting. And yet though there are other sides of it. Like, you also talk about how the kids are struggling with anxiety, athletes in particular. You talk about the statistic that a 2019 study among elite athletes, so this is just within the last five or six years, found that 30, up to 35%, 1/3 struggled. I'm like. But also a lot of people are struggling with mental health too, but struggled with mental health issues, citing anxiety as one of the most prevalent system symptoms. So it's like you gotta see both sides of it. And just one last thing about the coaching during the game, don't do it. The book says don't do it. Don't coach during the game. Kids may feel stress vicariously through other parents screaming at their kids. So you wanna think about all the kids on the team. So this is a really big deal and experience is the best teacher. And so I don't know why we're trying to control. And I totally agree, there's a difference between cheering your clap. Yay, go. Great shot. And coaching and trying to tell. Trying to walk along the side of a, of a swim lane and it's the most insane thing I've ever seen. So, okay, let's talk about then. It's. It is portrayed as so cool, honestly, like if your kid is that kid, so you see the draw of that. But on the other side, there's definitely a trade off. I don't know.

[Ed Uszynski]

Well, Jenny, can I say this? Actually you're teeing us up to talk about something that Brian and I just came out of. And again, we always feel like we need to disclaim it. This book is a very positive book. It's a very positive book to us as parents even. We feel like we're trying to give ourselves permission to do things differently that I think intuitively we know are the right things to do.

[Brian Smith]

We're trying to help parents enjoy sport. We're trying to bring joy and play back. And so it is a positive. Yeah.

[Ed Uszynski]

And our kids. So you even keep that in mind with what I'm going to say. One of my sons played college basketball, so I did get to experience that with one of them. And that's wonderful. I've had friends whose kids have played Division 1, and, you know, it is fun to be a part of the. The just the experience of that. But guess what? It's also quite miserable for them on so many levels. So this is what Brian and I were just at, at two different sports camps with college athletes who are there to learn about how their faith intersects with. With their sport. And the overriding. The overriding feedback that I got, even Brian and I haven't even talked about this, like I just got back from this camp, is that they are not enjoying their experience as college athletes. They're doing it now because it's like a job. They're doing it because they don't know who they are apart from it. So they almost feel like they have to keep doing it or they won't know themselves anymore. Their identity's attached to it. There's some measure of fun. It's what they've always done. They've been doing it for years, but it's really not enjoyable for them. And there's immense stress and there's immense medication taking place to try to deal with what they feel. And it's just, again, it looks a certain way on the surface, like so many things in life. Right. That we think if we get to the top of the ladder, that's when all my. My inner needs will be met. And what you find up there is that some of them get met, but it comes with a whole bunch of more baggage that most of us are not prepared for. Like, we spent all this time trying to get them there, and then it's really not all that it's, you know, built up to be, or at least there's way more problems than what we ever get to see.

[Ginny Urich]

Yeah. It's important to think about it and to know about it. You wrote abnormally high levels of stress and anxiety have become just a part of the youth sports culture. And therapists and counselors are now expected to be on staff for school sports departments. And you talk about how even when they're young, you know, if it's a competitive. I didn't really think about this. If your kid is in a competitive club that they can't just play, they can't just be like, oh, this is fun. They actually have to perform. And Constantly prove themselves and prove their value and in order to stay on the team, even at the lower levels. So I think that this will give parents a whole lot to think about, a whole lot to consider. I mean, it's just really the point is that winning is not the ultimate goal. And you, I liked this. You talk about change the goal from winning. There's practical things in here. Change the goal from winning to taking athletic risk. Take a risk. And isn't that the whole thing in life? That's what I was saying. I'm going to speak on a stage. Is it about being the best? Is it about having the best speech? You know, am I going to win the weekend? Or is it about I just took a risk? I took a risk in business, I took a personal risk and I did that and I demonstrated courage and I chose perseverance through struggle. So like I said, it really bleeds out into all of these other areas of life. You talk about play and when you talked about play and I. And I don't know who wrote about this, but someone one of you wrote about when you played your baseball as a kid. Little league baseball is probably ED in the mid-1970s, right?

[Ed Uszynski]

It was a long time ago.

[Brian Smith]

If I have to choose between the.

[Ginny Urich]

Two of you, okay, so you wrote anyone could play who wanted to. And that's a difference. Today every team had two or three kids that were really good and a bunch who weren't as good. And they helped each other. So the ones who are really good, the little kids, I've even seen that. I mean, the kids, they help each other and especially throw it higher, throw it underdog, jump when you throw, I mean, they help each other, right? They coax each other. You know, they, they become this team. The entry fee was small. We played in our town. We played 20 games. And then you wrote this. A mental tournament. My friends and I spent most of the rest of the summer doing home run derby with a wiffle ball on an elementary school field with neighborhood kids from sunup to sundown. And I thought this was such a big sentence. I remember tons of fun and hating that it was over so quick. You're like, that's one of the things that we lose. We lose the anticipation, we lose the excitement. Like, we lose the fact that, you know, some things are a season and you have to savor it while you're in it. And now we're gonna fun until the next one comes around when it's this year round thing and there's so much pressure. So you talk A lot about play and the value of play. In this book you say our kids don't care about winning as much as we do. And that's what your story reminded me of, Ed. It's like you're, you know, yeah, you have this team, but then on the off time, you're doing Wiffle ball. You're just having fun. You're playing. Can you talk about what parents should be trying to do in a day and age of the youth sports industrial complex to protect play?

[Ed Uszynski]

Wow, Such a good question, Jenny. And it's hard to do it. It's hard to do it if you want your kids to be able to hang out in the neighborhood and play. Cause guess what? All the kids are playing in organized sports. They're not just hanging out anymore. I'll say one thing, and I know Brian has thoughts about this too. I am trying to create space, intentionally create space with now again, the last of four children to say, hey, why don't you bring, why don't you invite so and so over and play Wiffle ball with them. That's actually something they've been starting to do, which again, for whatever reason, that thought is not even crossing his mind. And so just to even seed his mind with, invite this guy, this guy, this guy over. Well, what are we going to do, dad? Well, you can lay the bases out like this and you can play right there in the backyard. And then maybe I'm the parent that goes and picks up a couple of those kids. Again, we didn't used to have to do that, but one again, depending on where we live. In our case, we don't have a ton of kids in this neighborhood. I maybe need to be willing to go get them and bring them to the yard and then not stand and hover over them and coach them. And again, there was a great story that Brian told that I don't even think made it into the book. But there's always this tendency then to sit there and start to be the official over them. No, don't do that. Just let them play. Let them fight, let them, let them argue, Let them walk away from each other and then they'll come back again and just, just let that happen in your space, you know? So I want to initiate that more to try to help it happen for my kids.

[Ginny Urich]

Yeah, yeah. And I think your point is a really good one, Ed. And this is, I think the part of it that's so confusing is that the parent now has to be involved. Let's just say it. Let's say that's the expectation. That's the way parenting is now. There's going to be benefits for it, benefits of. From it. But it didn't. It wasn't a thing before. And I think that's why it's confusing. When you played with a ball as a kid in the 1970s, no one organized that. No one drove you. It just happened because kids were outside playing. Now, as a parent, you have the responsibility to help your kids form these friendships, to do these things that are offline, to spend some time learning how to negotiate with other people because you've set up these environments. You could have pick up sports. Thursday evenings, it's pickup sports at the whatever at the elementary school. I'm going to drive around and pick up kids whose parents are still at work. And I'm going to bring a kickball and some wiffle ball stuff. And I'm going to sit in my car and read a book or I'm going to sit outside because we're doing 1,000 hours outside. I'm going to bring a chair. I'm not going to be a part of it, you know, and then I'll drive everybody home. And that's sort of where we're at in society. It's like the parents have to be involved in helping to create these offline relationships that value play. And I think it's good. It makes say it's normal. It's normal to do that. Like, you know, it feels abnormal because it seems less organic, right? It's like, oh, it's not like how it used to be. But that culture doesn't exist anymore. So I think as parents, you have to kind of step in and make it happen. So the book is called Away Game. It is fantastic. It will give you so much to think about and not just about sports, about what really is the underlying part of human nature and what matters. How to deal with stress and anxiety. A Christian Parents guide to navigating youth Sports. We always end our show with the same question. The question is, what's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside?

[Brian Smith]

Sticking to the theme of sports. My favorite childhood memory, and my brother and I still talk about this all the time. Brother's two years younger than me. We would spend hours on our cul de sac with rollerblades, and it was usually him who was dressed up. Up in full baseball catcher's gear because we didn't have hockey goalie pads. And so the catcher's gear was our substitute for that. And we had a PV set, PVC pipe, really, Jankity hockey net and he would be the goalie and we would rollerblade around and I would just pelt tennis balls at him like all day long. We would switch for a little bit, but we spent countless summers just on that cul de sac thinking that we were. Our future was for sure going to be in the NHL. And our parents never forked over the money because it's very expensive to play hockey. But some of the best times growing up were just skating around super hot blacktop pelting tennis balls at my brother as he played goalie.

[Ed Uszynski]

It's good, Brian. Gosh, I've got a ton of those kind of stories and you already mentioned some about playing wiffle ball. But you know what came into my mind immediately? One of my favorite memories of being outside was going to Cedar Point with my friends the week you know what Cedar Point is and America's Roller Coast.

[Nurture Life Ad]

Yeah.

[Ed Uszynski]

And we would go there from the crack of dawn until they threw us out at the end of the day and just run all over the place from ride to ride and, you know, eat and play the games that were there to play. I'd love to. I look forward to. We only got to do it. We did it once a summer. But it was such a blast to do that outside.

[Ginny Urich]

And it's so much freedom. That place is huge. It's huge. Cedar Point is huge. I think it has the biggest roller coasters possibly in the world. I mean, I think in the country, I mean, it's just got incredible rides and it's so huge. So if you have the freedom to go and run around with your friends and you got to, you know, you don't have to meet back up till 9 at night or 10 at night when all the lights come on. What a thing.

[Ed Uszynski]

Just a blast.

[Ginny Urich]

Yeah, it's that freedom. And in both of your stories, there's no parent present, there's no adult.

[Brian Smith]

True. I probably got my thousand hours just on rollerblades in my cul de sac.

[Ginny Urich]

Dr. Peter Gray talks about that. He says that almost exclusively when people talk about their favorite childhood moments, they are not around adults. They have that freedom. They're off doing their own thing. And so it really fits with this conversation, which is like this adult control piece. And you know, the adults being over involved in a way that that changes the experience for the kids. So, I mean, what a fantastic book. It is so needed, so needed in this day and age. Away Games A Christian Parents Guide to Navigating Youth Sports. You can get it wherever books are sold. You can check out more@the Christianathlete.com where there's some bonus content. I know you do these Christian sports camps that really work on because one of the things that you said, and Linda Flanagan says the same thing, it's not inherent that sports build character. You have to do it in a certain way. And in fact, sometimes it builds the opposite of character. Right, where people are, like, cheating and they are mean and you give all of these other, you know, this is a spot of emotional trigger. So you have to really be intentional about making sure that those sports are building the kind of character that you want in your kids. Brian and Ed, thank you for writing this book and thank you so much for being here.

[Ed Uszynski]

What a great interview that was, Jenny.

[Brian Smith]

Jenny, you're awesome at that. My gosh, that was super fun.

[Ed Uszynski]

Amazing. Now it's about 110 degrees in my car right now. We got so much done in that. That was. You were so prepared and such great questions. Thank you for that. Well, thank you, goodness.

[Brian Smith]

Thanks for having us. Appreciate it.