← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 559: Using Music Purposefully | Mort and Sara Sherman, Resonant Minds
00:53:58
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- [00:00]
A
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B
Welcome to the 1000 hours. I feel like I should sing this. Welcome to the 1000. That's not working out for me. Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Ginny Urich. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and for the first time ever, we have a father daughter duo. Today we're going to be talking about music. I'm so excited about it. Mort and Sarah Sherman, welcome.
- [00:52]
A
Thank you for having us. Jenny. Her energy is so infectious and the best.
- [00:57]
B
I'm excited about that.
- [00:58]
C
And Ginny, I was telling you before. Yeah, well, we're excited about being with you. I told you. You, like filled my morning with research and going down rabbit holes and kudos to you for pushing this question out about parenting and about all of us getting outdoors and connecting with one another through nature and just breathing outside. Congratulations. It's really an important conversation.
- [01:23]
B
Thank you. Thank you. Well, I'm especially excited to talk about this because actually I would say that the thing I identify most with is being a pianist and I've played the piano since I was 4 years old and have done all sorts of things with it, weddings. And I took lessons at the University of Michigan at the School of Music for a bit in my teen years and I taught private piano lessons for 20 years. And we don't talk about that much on here because we're, you know, getting kids outside. But this thought of, of music and having music in the home and it's hands on and it's real life and you listen to it and you have this incredible book that you wrote together called Resonant Minds, the Transformative Power of Music One note at a time. You're talking about how this is good for executive function, it's good for community, it's good for so many things. Just like how getting kids outside is good for so many things. And so I just am really honored and excited because this is near and dear to my heart to have you both on. I would love for you to introduce yourselves and it's really a cool. If could just kind of weave in the fact that this father daughter duo writing a book together, how did that Happen.
- [02:27]
C
Sarah, go ahead. You could tell the story about how it got to to this point.
- [02:31]
A
All right. So Jenny, I love that you. Do you still play the piano? I have to ask you doctor.
- [02:35]
B
Yes, oh yes, absolutely I totally do. I don't play it as much as I would like to but my goal is okay I started doing this once a day practice where you practice every day for 20 minutes. I mean I haven't hardly done it since I was, you know, a lot younger and my goal is to play on St. Someday with Sean Diedrich. He doesn't know that that's my goal, but that is my goal.
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A
I love it. You're putting it out there.
- [02:59]
C
Sounds now publicly.
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A
Yes.
- [03:01]
C
Oh by the way, Sarah, Sarah, you gotta tell Ginny that you were accepted to the school of Music at University of Michigan and decided to go to another.
- [03:10]
A
Yeah but.
- [03:11]
C
Okay, go ahead. I'll be quiet. I'll stop, I'll stop.
- [03:13]
B
Well, okay. Did you know Lynn Bartholomew? I wonder if she was still there. You are look a lot younger than.
- [03:17]
A
Me when I, when I auditioned but I went and it was one of those, you know I was so excited about it but I think I went with my father actually. So we'll, we'll get to kind of our whole story of father, daughter and getting to write the book together but it's not in the book but it might as well have been going to all these places where I went to audition and my luggage was lost but I always packed my scores in my carry on bag because I needed to have my music and we went to I don't know, Kmart somewhere at midnight to get like concert black audition clothes and my audition was at 9 o' clock in the morning and I played a really random piece by Alvin Berg. He's just a more a lesser known composer and some one of the faculty said to me thank you for playing Berg. I rarely hear this on an audition and so it was between Michigan and Indiana and I ended up going to Indiana instead. But it's a great campus, beautiful outdoors and it's a wonderful place.
- [04:17]
B
What a cool thing. I mean music can really enhance your life in more ways than you could ever know. So what's the story more? Were you a musician as a kid and then it kind of gets passed down in the family?
- [04:28]
C
No, I wasn't a musician. We'll get to that and we talk about the book. Let Sarah tell about how the book got to this point and then I'll come back and talk about me a little bit.
- [04:36]
A
Okay so because you said you were 4 years old, I think I was 5 years old when I started playing piano. My sister was playing and I used to sneak into all of her, like peek at all her lessons. And then I would go in and try to play whatever she was playing in her lessons. But I'd play it with my nose, I'd play it with my toes. I was really obnoxious and just, you know, well, I can do this too, but I can do it with my toes, not just my fingers. And I mean fast forward. My whole life has been surrounded by music in a household that loves music. My father and I used to sing Ode to Joy with animal sounds. I always knew I loved music and wanted to have my life surrounded by it. But who knows what that means when they're 8, 10, 13, even when you're graduating from a graduate school, a conservatory. So now what do you do? And I was performing regularly and my daughter was born and I was still performing. You know, I had been performing in Europe and I was in Ukraine when I was younger. And she came with me to one of the biggest concerts I had when she was just four months old and she was wearing in one of those nuggies that my husband was wearing. And I had invited a bunch of new parent friends and they all canceled. And it was, I was playing as a solo with, with the Chelsea Symphony. So I was playing Shostakovich piano concerto. And for those of you that don't know concertos, it's when you get to be front center in front of the orchestra and you were the featured musician. So it was an awesome concert. And when I asked why they all didn't show up, well, what if my baby was hungry? What if they needed a diaper change? And I understood, but I was really disappointed and, and I started to look around. And in New York City in particular, there is a scope for some of the youngest audience members to be exposed to music, high caliber live music at a young age. And so I asked some friends, hey, if I create a concert series, will you come? But babies can be babies. You know, we can do some clapping to Gershwin or breathing with Bach or buzz around like Bumblebees for Flight of the Bumblebee. And we had our first concert in December 2017 where both my parents came up. We have my mom waving my daughter around, my dad waving her around like a bumblebee. And fast forward now, Mozart from Munchkins has been around for seven and a half, eight years. And all of that ties into the book because during, I think the early Years of the pandemic 2021, I started working with Minds of the Goldie Hawn foundation and creating a program merging music and mindfulness. And we talk more about mindful action in the book. But this was about using music as a vehicle for mindfulness in alignment with their program and their curriculum. And it focuses on the neuroscience, positive psychology, focus, emotional awareness. And my dad knows this work very well. And before I had professional development days, I would often call and say, well, what about this? What do you think about this? And he was a wonderful sounding board, as is my mother, an educator for many years. And he would always say, you're writing your book. You're writing your book. And I'd say, no, not without you. And so here we are after that work together of collaborating on using music as this tool that we talk about in the book quite a lot, too, always. My father's been one of my biggest supporters my entire life, my mother as well, and a biggest sounding board on how can we really put intention behind the ways we use music in our everyday lives?
- [08:04]
C
Ginny, let's go back to me, to your question of me now that you know this backstory with Sarah, how we got to this point. I. I was in third grade. I remember this so well. The announcement came out over the intercom in elementary school saying, oh, we have this opening for somebody to play the French horn or get lessons in the French horn. You have to come down to audition. And the audition was like singing the first line or two of the national anthem. And I sang it, and the guy pointed his finger at me and said, drums. And I struggled all my life. I always loved hearing music, but I took lessons on piano, on drums and clarinet, and was lousy at all of them. And I think it had to do with the. I can't memorize. I mean, to this day, I can't memorize. And it's a learning disability. I've overcome it admirably well. But there's this question that you asked that I think is core to what Sarah and I have written in the book is, what is that mindful or musical spark that fills our lives in ways that complete us as humans? And. And I don't know what that musical spark is. I can remember incidents and. And songs from my mom and dad. My father. My father never graduated high school. He was a rough, tough guy from the Depression. He was a mechanic. And yet there was something. When he sang the Marine Corps Hymn of the Halls of Mountezuma as a Marine, or my mother sang a song from World War I. It truly resonated with me to this moment. I could hear their voices in my head. But I don't know the true psychological, neurological reasons that it connects. And Sarah has done so much more research about that than I about the brain and its connection with neuroscience. Our goal then is to figure out what that neuroscience is, what that musical spark is, what that connection is, and to enable others to take mindful action. And I just want to do one more sentence or two. Sarah was very specific in saying about mindfulness versus mindful action. We understand mindfulness. I practice meditation every day with my wife. But mindful action is a little bit different. And we could talk about getting outdoor and taking mindful action, which is, I think you're pushing a little bit so we could turn the question back to you. But I love music. I, you know, I wake up singing, I play songs all day long. I. It's just part of my life and I have no idea how it got there.
- [10:39]
B
Well, one of the things you wrote in the book is that something like 75% or 76% of people listen to music every day. So we're already doing it, most of us. This book is about how to make it purposeful, how to use music purposefully. And what was interesting to me, Morton, Sarah, is that there's a similarity here to nature, where I think we all know that nature makes us feel better. I think we all incorporate it a little bit into our lives, but it's really something that can easily be left off because it might seem frivolous and music is similar. And also this is a really interesting one because we talk a lot about kid directed. Kid directed play is really important. But for music training we do often have a teacher. Some kids are self taught, but I had a teacher and I did spend hours of my childhood up to a, you know, at some point, two to three hours a day, similar to how we're trying to get kids outside practicing an instrument. And that is really valuable to me. It's hands on, it's good for the brain, all those synapses. So Mort, could you just give a little encouragement? I would imagine and, and I would say the same for my parents. Now my parents really sacrificed for my piano lessons and they ended getting a grand, a baby grand piano. They, you know, they basically, the teacher said, you know, she really needs it. I think they put out like a second mortgage on their home to get it. But you don't know when you're investing in those lessons what that's going to look like. Long term, maybe that your kid is going to use it. Maybe they're not. Maybe it's just for joy, enjoyment, or maybe it's going to be for career. Can you just give some encouragement, more to the parents who are struggling with what to do about music in their home? I know obviously this is all about. This isn't necessarily just about lessons. It's actually really not necessarily necessarily that you're doing all sorts of programs and exposure. But the fact that Sarah had played piano all over the world and has built these programs does point to the fact that those sacrifices really can go a long way.
- [12:34]
C
Yeah, Jenny, again, you're really good at getting to the heart of the question. One of the parenting questions that my wife and I, Sarah's mom, have always dealt with is comes from a scene from Amy Tan, the Joy Luck Club that she writes about. When she was a kid, she was a chess whiz. She was a champion player. And what happened is that she used to practice at home. And her mom was one of those tiger moms. She'd sit down and practice, get to work. You got to try this move and that move. And one day Emmy Tan wrote that she just knocked the chessboard off and stopped competing. She just went back to it. So when we had this wonderful talent in our house called Sarah, and we had Adina, who had other talents, and Rachel had other talents, we tried to think, how do you encourage their talent? And don't say, sit down and play that piano. How do you make it loving and joyful and wonderful? And I think that's when Sarah talks about making animal sounds to Ode to Joy. You know, I used to say, okay, pig sound, horse sound, sheep, whatever it was. And we used to make sounds. I think there's part of that. And Sarah can write about her experience in the UK and other places where, you know, technique and others are so strict versus what's the joy that we take out of the sounds of nature? Our first symphony, you know, the natural symphony, just walking out. And I think parenting often has that struggle. How do you find the balance? I would encourage parents and grandparents to figure out how to maintain that balance without putting that pressure on. That becomes onerous to the children and to the grandchildren. And so that playful moment, banging on the table, putting spoons, you know, like, try to figure out what we're playing or going outside and banging rocks together or banging on a hollow tree trunk to a song. There are so many opportunities to have the brain connected to music around us and to make it joyful. And Sarah has Also done a lot of work and she could talk about this and then I'll get quite about classical music, about how we push so hard that only 3% or something or maybe it's 4% of people listen to classical music. Why doesn't everybody listen to classical music? It drives me nuts and yet there are reasons for that. So Jenny, I just think that's the core of what we're writing about is let's not just be passive, but let's be mindful and think about in very intentional ways of how we incorporate the majesty, the beauty, the possibility of music into our lives.
- [15:10]
B
So Sarah, you have got all sorts of scientific information in this book, Resonant Minds about what music is actually doing for us. And so it takes it from being this thing that maybe you turn on the radio, maybe you don't, maybe you turn on your playlist, maybe you don't into a more purposeful thing. Can you talk about a couple, I'm sure you talk to parents all over the place, all over the world. A couple of the top things that parents are interested in and people in general when it comes to being purposeful with music. So you know, I know you talk about stress reduction, but you talk really about quite a bit emotional regulation, just our overall well being. And this whole neuroscience includes executive function which is huge. So it's, it's so much more than entertainment. What are a couple of your favorite ones that you like to talk about?
- [15:59]
A
Oh, this is going to be hard to narrow it down just because I think similar to make sure we talk about nature as well to the impact that there is no real such thing as background noise when we are exposed to and I think with nature, when we're outdoors, the same thing, our synapses are going off and our brains are impacted from being surrounded by nature. And the same way in music and in music we know that our brains start firing 100 to 300 milliseconds. That's about the blink of an eye from being exposed to music. And that's not necessarily intentionally listening and saying oh, I recognize that that lyric belongs to that. It's going off before we can consciously think A thought like, oh, that is this song and it's going to make me feel X. So that neural synapse that's firing is already potentially reducing our cortisol levels. If we're with somebody, maybe it's releasing oxytocin and we're forming a bond. Maybe it's activating our default mode network because it has a low amount of beats. Per minute to it. So there are certain ways in which we can select music to take us from where we are to where we want to be. And in that, I mean, there are ways we can use music to actively listen. And so maybe it means putting on a piece of music that either you or with your child, whatever it might be, I think it benefits both children and adults to breathe along to a piece of music. We know when we talk in the beginning of the book that 74% of people that listen to music, but only about 13 or 14, 14%, use some type of mindfulness or meditative behavior. But if we put on a piece of music and breathe to it, all of a sudden it's putting that mindful action and that intention behind it. And the same way in which we can meditate and reduce our blood pressure, so can we, when we listen to a piece of music. And sometimes it's easier to. For some people to understand that than to be alone with their own thoughts. The same idea with just. If we're talking about family and community, when we listen to a certain amount of beats per minute, which is 80, 120 beats, which is the way most of us walk. So, again, if we think about how important it is to walk in nature, listening to a piece of music that has that same tempo that you might be taking a walk to, does something where it creates this type of groove. And if you're actually listening to music with people, your brain waves synchronized, this neural entrainment is synchronizing to the music together. So whether we recognize it or not, we're creating this sense of community because that oxytocin is going. Our brain waves are synchronizing, and. And it's different than when you're listening to a piece of music alone, which also has its benefits. But it's this unspoken bond that's happening from the music that's happening all around us. So those are two of my favorite ways. There are countless ways, but I really think using music as a connector and as a bond and as this way to focus and to create presence and awareness in our own bodies.
- [18:53]
B
I love that part, too. That was highlighted in my notes.
- [18:56]
C
Yeah. Hey, Jenny, I want to go back to what Sarah said and what you asked me about parenting, because I know Sarah has now two remarkable children, our grandchildren. And your story about your parents sacrificing and buying that baby Grant. Well, we did, too. Sarah has in her apartment in New York, the baby grand we bought for her. And so we bought another one for the house here. So when she comes to visit. But we also bought lots of baseball gloves and basketballs for her sister Sarah, and for her older sister Dina, bought prescription goggles. It's finding out what their joy is and was and figuring out how to support it. But let me push that just one step further with two other words. It's reciprocal and it's resonant. I gotta tell you, I'd love. When Sarah comes to visit, she said, oh, it's 10 o' clock at night. Do you mind if I go practice? Of course you could practice because there's a joy of parenting. You know that. Like that old cookbook, the Joy of Cooking. What about the joy of parenting? Just raising children and resonating because they are special and wonderful and figuring out how to support them in their special talents.
- [20:14]
B
The joy of parenting. I love that. And it's a reminder. One of the biggest things that people ask is how do we get our kids off of these screens? And I think it's a reminder, Mort, that there is an investment piece there. There's an investment of time, of finances. And, you know, obviously people have different levels of commitment that they can do, but there it does take that. And then what happens is you're practicing, so you're not on the screen. You're swimming, so you're not on the screen. You know, you're engaged in something you love. You're playing baseball. And that takes away from time on screens. And it helps kids to level up, you know, to become masters at a certain thing and then, you know, get a little bit better, Get a little better. And so I just am so thankful I say it, you know, I say often how thankful I am for my parents that they made that sacrifice. It is the, probably the biggest part of who I am, even though I don't hardly ever talk about it on here. But it's the thing that brings me the most joy in life. If I could do anything, it would be to sit down and spend time at the piano. So I just. Good reminders. These are good parenting reminders.
- [21:15]
C
Don't think of it like a sacrifice. It's not that. It's what parenting is. Every moment is that commitment to bringing that next generation into being human and connect with other people. I never thought of it. I know my wife Debbie, never thought of the sacrifice. It's what we did because we love being parents.
- [21:33]
B
Yeah. And you just, you can see long term, all of the benefits that come from that. So. I liked the one about groove too, Sarah. I had, I had bolded this one the science of groove and synchronizing the brain waves. So you say this groove and rhythm. This is kind of what I'm talking about. If people were to say what's fundamental to your brain, they're going to be like calculus, English, you know. But you say no. I mean, sure, yes, but also. Also groove and rhythm are fundamental to the brain. So you start off by talking about with babies. I mean, your whole Mozart for Munchkins is about exposing young children to all of this different kind of music. You talked in this book about a study with babies and rhythm. Can you explain that? It's just such a reminder that this can start really young.
- [22:24]
A
Yeah. Before I get to the babies, can I go back?
- [22:27]
B
Yes.
- [22:29]
A
So if we think about how integral music is to our being, and I think it's important, again, I just. Because I love what you're doing and bringing it back to the outdoors. Everything about the Neanderthals, the first. You know, the first instrument. Well, you do, I guess, because you read the book. But the first instrument that we have and that we know about is from an animal. It's from a vulture hip bone, and it was made into a flute, which is so fascinating when you think somebody was thinking, I want to make sound out of this. Here's this dead animal over here that's made. Let's figure out how we can get something from it, which is so fascinating. And then there's also research that music predates formed words and language. So as a communicator, if we think about sitting around campfires about, you know, at the end of the day, whatever was hunting and bringing a community together, and maybe you're making rhythmic sounds that match the thunder that you're hearing or the heartbeats or again, that beat of your walking pattern and clapping rocks together or. Or whatever it might be logs. And so that this music was a form of communication and all. All outdoors. Right. Caves. We have pictures of the pictographs on cave. Cave walls. And so we. We know this is. Is fact. So as it being so integral to us, to infants, and. And just part of our nature and psyche as humans. Fast forward to today's world where we have fmris and we can see what's going on in our brains anyway when we're listening to all of this stuff or creating it. Some of research has been done for infants that being exposed to the same rhythm, rhythmic musical pattern creates this nice beautiful bell curve where it goes up, up and down and up and down. And the babies know what's coming, so their brain Waves are just happy and moving along together. But the second the pattern changes, that beautiful bell curve that's on repeat and on this pattern moves because the baby's brain can already predict what's going to happen because of that rhythm and that pattern. So that's when we talk about music and the importance of patterns and language development. We can see it before words that the baby understands that pattern and that what to expect based on rhythmical patterns.
- [24:45]
B
That is incredible. It's so incredible. And it's just a reminder you use the phrase at the beginning. Sarah, youngest audience members. You said there's a gap for the youngest audience members, and I totally relate with that. In fact, we have not taken our kids to see hardly anything. I mean, classical music. I mean, when they were little, sometimes there would be things at a park and we would do that. And that's always easy, right? Because then they can run around and they do that often in the summer where there's music in a park and the kids can kind of run around and be rambunctious. But for the most part, these spaces are not super conducive to small children. In fact, the only thing I've ever considered taking our kids to is once a year, the Detroit Symphony Orchestra does Home Alone, which is my favorite movie. They do Home Alone and they play the movie, and I think they play the music right along with it. But they only do it for one night in December, and we have never been able to hit tickets. But, you know, I don't. It hasn't really crossed my mind take my kids to this symphony or that, because you think, oh, they're going to be bored. They're going to cause a stir. They're going to cause problems. So can you talk about, I mean, you. This Mozart for Munchkins, you said somewhere I read it was like you weren't. You didn't even know what to expect with it. You're starting with one thing, and then, oh, yeah, you say you start with a single concert that's a piano and a violin. That's what you're starting with. You have no idea what it's going to grow into. And now you've reached over 50,000 people through concerts, assemblies, classroom experiences and beyond. What does that look like? Because I think a lot of people. We're going to talk about. You have something coming up, too, that's actually outside. But a lot of people would think, oh, I would love to have an environment that's really conducive for me to come with my kids.
- [26:26]
A
Yeah, I'M going to backtrack a little bit, something that you said, because I think music is this universal language and it also helps blur boundaries and barriers that we might not recognize either. We actually have a chapter about that. But you mentioned piano lessons. And you know, I grew up fortunate enough to have piano lessons, but not everyone has the means to have lessons or it's not a part of the culture or whatever it might be. But music is for everybody. So I think it's important. And what's really inspired so much of my work is how do we do that and how do we create performance performances where perhaps some of that same brain development that is so researched for music lessons, how do we apply that same brain benefit to intentionally listening to music and being exposed to music? And that's what Mozart from Munchkins really tries to do, is create this experiential learning environment where children can be kids. And that might mean a one year old crying. And I always used to make a joke, if your kid cries during Debussy, maybe they learn really early on, impressionistic music is for them and that's okay, but maybe they'll really start enjoying Bach or Gershwin. Or we do a lot of jazz and bluegrass. Now, I know our name is Moza from Munchkins, but we do a lot of music. And the audience isn't just for babies. It's really for everybody. So what that looks like is giving families, parents, caregivers, adults, teachers, students now are also in schools K through 12 prompts. And sometimes that might mean something as simple as breathing with the music. Maybe it means clapping on 2 and 4 to create this type of groove. Maybe it's drawing what you hear to activate our default mode network and see what you come up with, whether it's some Miles Davis or maybe it's even some Bon Iver. I was just working with a group of kids out in California and they were really into that, into indie music and being exposed to all of their musical preferences. And so I also think it's important where at our concerts and the prompts that I give are a starting point and my musical choices are not everybody's musical choices. And I know that. But it's something that is a foundation to then take and to make your own. And I do think the musical prompts are something that can be taken and applied to different types of music for different experiences, whether it's for that active listening. Hey, there is a violin that sounds like this. And this motive keeps coming back. Try to listen for it. And so your active listening Then is being activated. And that's something we can all work with, children, adults alike. And the more we practice it, even in a piece of music, the more that we able to listen to our colleagues, to our friends, to our families. But now that I went on and all of them like, did I answer all your questions? That's it. So the experience is having music, having kids clap, have kids dance, and really a space where kids can be kids.
- [29:26]
B
And then sometimes you wrap it up with the instrument petting zoo.
- [29:30]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [29:32]
C
Well, wait, but I want to talk about that, Sarah, in the context of Mozart and what he wanted as an audience reaction and breaking down the fourth wall, going beyond the proscenium. And I think that's the petting zoo idea. But, Ginny, when you talk about the Detroit experience, it has to do with the question of why they're doing the performance. Is that it to perform? Is it engage? Is it to involve people in a broader groove to it? You know, some rock music, when you look, why is Taylor Swift so popular? Does she break down that fourth wall and engage the audience? Is she committed to the audience that you would stand in pouring rain to still sing when the weather's awful outside? And so I think the Detroit Symphony, Detroit Orchestra, has to think about your question. How do you bring more people in? How do you create that petting zoo? Sarah, would you talk about the crinkling of the candy between movements, you know, and getting shushed at a concert? And Mozart, what he wanted from his music? Yeah, I think it gets to this question of groove that you.
- [30:41]
A
The groove and what you mentioned about the instrument petting zoo. So this idea of sitting in a concert hall and being on our best behavior is. Is more modern of the last 150, 200 years. I'm trying to think, what year are we in now? Let's say 200 years. So give or take. And we know that because we have records of Mozart writing letters, one in particular from a symphony. And he said, you know, it was the premiere. I don't remember which symphony off the top of my head, but the premiere of my symphony. And I was so proud and so excited to hear about it. I'm paraphrasing terribly, but the idea is the same that when the violins had this big crescendo, that's when they get louder. The audience cheered, just like I knew that they would. And then when it got really quiet and you could hear a pin drop, the audience then burst into applause. But it wasn't at the end of a movement or at the end of the piece, it was just because they loved it so much. And so going to live concerts was more of a social experience than this. Hey, let's go and be on our best behavior. And I think the ability to allow an audience to express themselves, let them become active listeners instead of passive listeners, which is what I think happens so often in modern day performances where you have that idea what my father asked about Home Alone. There's this movie on the screen and you have the orchestra and that is so cool. But now what? So what? It's a great visual experience, but are you helping out? Especially for the first time concert goers? What are you listening to anyway? Like what's happening up there? And so that changed and I won't go into the history of it because that's a whole other podcast, but in the late 1900s with Richard Wagner and a lot of performance practice that started to come into play around like 1850s, 1870s. But so this idea of sitting and being on our best behavior is something that we've been taught and it's not something that always was. So this instrument petting zoo again is really allowing children to experience something new and different because we don't know what we don't know. You don't know if you like a French horn, you don't know if you like a violin until you experience it. And so it lets them like stick their head in the. We have these great pictures of kids sticking their head in the bell of a French horn and looking like what's in there anyway and trying to experience it. And it takes this barrier away. I think of especially classical music that sometimes seems scary and inaccessible and lets it be something that children can feel and experience.
- [33:16]
B
So you do have an outdoor. We're going to let everybody know in case they are somewhat local or they want to travel in. You do have an outdoor experience coming up. Can you tell us about that?
- [33:26]
A
Yeah, I'll tell you about that one. And I do want to backtrack on outdoor experiences because I think they're so. Well, obviously we're here and I think the outdoors is so wonderful. But next month on August 16, we have a partnership with Hamilton on Broadway. It is their 10 year anniversary and so they're doing Hamilton and activations all over New York City. But Hamilton, such a wonderful musical and unique in its own right, compositionally what they've done with it. But they want children to experience it in the same way of what we're talking about, performance practice. It's not every day you see A three year old going to Broadway. And so in partnership with Hudson Yards in New York City and with Hamilton, we're going to be outdoors on stage at their public public square and gardens and putting on an interactive concert together. So we'll have one of their singers and we'll have musicians, but we'll do things like play Hamilton music and then we might show the rhythms and how that might relate to wanting to jump around on a horse to the William Tell Overture. And so we'll have these kids moving around outdoors and experiencing Hamilton music in a live, unique way that they've never, never experienced it before.
- [34:38]
B
That's so exciting. People can find out on your Mozart.
- [34:41]
A
For Munchkin's website, on our website, on our Instagram and also by looking up Hudson Yards and their outdoor programming.
- [34:50]
B
It's really inspiring. It's inspiring to, to take that culture of going to music and making it more accessible for the youngest audience members. If the DSO wants to bring in more people in Detroit, they should have the Home Alone Night be more than once because it's only one Wednesday in December and people are busy in December, so. So we will come if they open up more tickets. But you know, that kind of just shows that's. It's a special thing, but it's not really the focus. It's a side thing. And so I love that you're making this out. It's just out in front and people can put the show notes but they can see what it looks like. You put all sorts of videos up of kids moving and dancing in the instrument. Zoom. I think one thing that I just is such a, an important reminder, Morton Sarah, that you bring up is just making playlists. What a great technology we have now that we didn't used to have. And you give a sample playlist, different ideas in the book. Could you give a couple ideas for a parent that's listening of different playlists that they could have at the ready that they could use for their family?
- [35:50]
C
Well, let me introduce that concept in a way in the book where we talk about Sometimes familiar is the enemy of the expanded mind, the mindful action. You know, most people have a playlist and they plug it in or if you go to some of the commercial products, they only want you to come back and buy their service. And those commercial playlists are designed to give you a feedback loop of the familiar. And we are saying let's create playlists which expand what you're doing. So it's just not the creation of the playlist. And Sarah can give you more information about that than I can. But it's the conversation about the playlist and one comes to mind. So clearly we have a 15 year old grandson, Sarah's nephew, who is just so talented. And you know, early he thought he was going to be an athlete and then he fell in love with voice and theater and musical theater and just a beautiful voice. And so I said, what? What are you listening to? And he said, well, I used to listen to country, but I know my dad loves country, but I don't love it so much anymore. And I know you and grandma listen to like Simon and Garfunkel and the Beatles and I listen to that and I listen to mom who, you know, when she listens to Carole King, you've got a friend and James. And I know my sister loves this and I know aunt Sarah loves classical music, but he said, I listen to indie music, it makes me feel better, calms me down. He's moving on from indie music, but it was the question of what he liked that connected us. So what did grandma and I do? We had no idea what he was talking about, but we listened to indie music and we found out what it is. And so the creation of the playlist mentality is not just about music, it's about connection, it's about making networks, it's about using music in a mindful way to connect with other people. And I think you're so right. The technology today enables us to go beyond the commercial list. I'm not going to name any products out there, but you could go on to any number of the AI tools or anywhere and just say, you know, I really, I have this really important podcast at one o' clock today with Ginny and I want to prepare by calming down or getting excited. Can you give me five songs that would, would do that for me? And then Tomorrow I need five different songs or 10 different songs and, and you know, I'm going to toot Sarah's horn because you could tell I just adore her. And. And so we are co authors of a blog for Psychology Today and at the end of every one of our short blogs we put playlists. You know, what happens when somebody in your family is dying? Or what do you use? What music do you listen to on July 4th? Or what music do you listen to for father, I think those playlists are important. And one final piece before I give it back to Sarah. I think teachers have opportunity to create playlists connected with their curriculum and parents have opportunity to create playlists and grandparents have opportunities to Create playlists rather than simply doing the same thing every day. Because that, as I said before, the familiar feedback, that loop is problematic. Now, Sarah, I didn't answer specifically what Ginny asked, what kinds of questions, but I gave the reason that you and I are so excited about this work. So in your family you have playlists?
- [39:18]
A
Yeah. And before I even talk about my, my family, which I can. But Jenny, I am curious because I know the audience is a lot of parents. Do you happen to know what age demographic their children tend to be?
- [39:30]
B
Well, I think they're all ages, actually. I think it goes birth all the way through. And then I think that, I mean, there's really a lot of people that listen in that aren't parents as well. And then there's grandparents that listen to too.
- [39:40]
A
I love that. So torn, I want to talk about my children, but I also had this really wonderful experience when I was working with kids that are not mine that I met for the first time. And I think I talk about my children a lot, so I'm not going to talk about them because this was such a unique experience I had a few weeks ago where I was working with middle school and high school students. It was just a five week, a five day seminar and we, we didn't know each other. And part of it, our workshop together was on music and the brain and writing. But part of the music in the brain was having them go out into the world after this workshop and say, hey, I know what songs I want to put on when I want to focus or when I need to get some work done or when I want to create connection. And we curated playlists as a class every day based on the theme. And what it really did was open up my eyes and ears to music that I didn't know. And then it creates a connection and an understanding of each other. Because again, when we fall into our feedback loop of the familiar and listen to what we are so used to, it doesn't open up our eyes and ears to all the possibilities and potential that is out there. I also believe that if somebody is selecting a song and if we really listen, it's a way of trying to understand them where they are. And it might be a way of understanding how they're feeling, where they are, that place in the world and in that moment. And so I think co creating playlists is something that's really unique and really special to do and to give prompts. Hey, we want to have some playlists for focus as a family or hey, I'm, I'm studying and I'm having a really hard time. What are you listening to these days? Ask a friend, ask a teacher. And it then gives us the chance to experiment with something new that's outside of our comfort zone. But it also creates this bond, the shared connection. It releases oxytocin. And you listen to music together. So then again, chemically, in our brains, it's creating this connection. And so I think the more that we can do that as a society, it creates this harmony of sharing musical experience, which is something that I think we don't necessarily do enough of. And because again, we're talking about outdoors or your. Your thousand hours outdoors, which is so important, it doesn't just have to be co creating playlists, but I think outside and walking outdoors and hey, what do you hear? Did you hear that bird call? Hey, do you hear that? That river over there? And it's about being aware of our surroundings and creating that mindful action and an intention all around us. And so sure. And playlist. But I think it's important to recognize with the work that you do and in nature.
- [42:27]
C
I had a funny thought when you were just two of you just talking, have you ever gone outside and nature says, shh, be quiet, you'll disturb the birds? It doesn't. It's so magical to be outside and just to listen. And if the birds go skirting away somewhere, that's okay. Listen to the bullfrog or to the trees rustling and to the rhythm of that outside. And that mindful listening, I think, is so powerful.
- [42:55]
A
And there's a line I forgot where I read it, but that nature is always performing. You just have to listen. And I think sometimes we forget to listen to what's happening all around us.
- [43:07]
B
Someone said the other day, nature never disappoints. And I was like, oh, it's so true. Music is very similar. There's so many crossovers here. You talk about this, you know, nature, it just accepts you as you are. The kids can be rambunctious and boisterous and loud. Just kind of dissipates up into the clouds, into the trees. And that's what you're doing. You're creating these musical experiences that allow kids to come as they are. And it's really powerful. The playlist thing, thing, it's one of those things that's so practical. It's probably a very seamless part of your world and you're using it with your family. But actually, I don't do that. I have a playlist, and it's just like 200 songs. I like, you know, I have not curated anything. And then when you're talking about more like, you know, trying to step out of what you're used to listening to and bringing other things in. So you have really practical ideas in the book beyond all of the science you're talking about. You brought it up at the beginning. Beginning breathing with Bach, trying to breathe with it. I've never done that. You have journaling exercises and just coming up with playlists. You have some already in the book, like a calming playlist for bedtime, an energizing playlist for the morning routine, an emotional regulation playlist. I haven't done this. So I found this to be very, very practical for our family. And even, like, if you're going on a trip, wouldn't it be cool to have it? You know, this is our Grand Canyon playlist. And every. We've got five kids and some are teenagers, so everybody kind of fights over them music. But if we had a playlist, everyone gets to pick four or five things, then it just shuffles through or something like that. I thought that that was a super practical idea. Thank you.
- [44:40]
A
But do you remember, I don't know if you grew up in the era of the way CDs for each other.
- [44:45]
B
Yeah.
- [44:46]
A
And it's like a. It was such a great thing in the 90s, and it's like a lost art that we don't do anymore. But it's that same idea. And it was so awesome when somebody gave you a mixtape or a mixy gene like, what's on here? I can't wait to listen to it. And it was made with intention and somebody thinking of you in mind. And so it's. It's trying to bring that back and thoughtfulness for each other. Sorry, Dad, I didn't mean to cut you off.
- [45:09]
C
No, no, that's okay. There's a. There's an extension of going to the Grand Canyon. Everybody contributing four songs. It's not just listening to the music, but it's also saying, why'd you select that song? What do you love about that song? It's this old concept. If I get to understand and respect a little bit of you, I could expect great and respect greater humanity. It's that old philosophical concep. And I just want to type because my background as an educator, whether it's a teacher, principal, or superintendent, I think teachers and parents have distinct opportunities to bring music into the classroom rather than having it over off to the side and use those playlists and bring music in. In ways that we don't traditionally do. And it's, you know, in the research Sarah and I did, we went back and, and found that Amazing Grace has been used by every president. You know, it was written, was it Sarah, in the 1750s. It was first, you know, and, and had to do with being outside. Guy woke up and looked at the sky, said, oh my God, we survived that awful storm last night. Amazing Grace, thank you for giving me another day. I feel that way going outside sometimes, you know, just looking at the sky and saying, isn't it beautiful out here? I think teachers could have that same kind of joy brought into their curriculum regular basis. Whether it's Marian Anderson singing on the Lincoln memorial steps in 1939 or Barack Obama singing Amazing Grace in South Carolina at a funeral. There are so many opportunities to connect nature and music and the curriculum that we have. And I think the question of playlists is how do you bring them in? And part of what Sarah and I have as a long term goal on our website is to create playlists that others could look at to spark ideas. So it's a social studies teacher or an English teacher, Sarah's husband, teacher, Shakespeare at a university. It's full of music. You know, why don't we bring that in? And Shakespeare, full of nature in his writing. Why don't we bring music in connected to nature? How cool that would be.
- [47:14]
B
Yeah. It's so practical and so inspiring. You talk about how they're starting to use music in healthcare. This is being prescribed. It's a therapeutic intervention. Intubated and even fully sedated. Patients under general, under general anesthesia respond positively to prescribed music. The patient doesn't even have to be conscious or aware. Simply being in the same room while the music plays lowers levels of stress, biomarkers and improves hemodynamic stabilities. I didn't even know what that meant, but I was like, that sounds really good. I would love to improve my hemodynamic stability. But this is happening. You know, the therapeutic drumming. You even talked about how with the executive function, which. This is a really big deal. Executive functions are predictive of achievement, health, wealth and quality of life throughout life, more so than IQ or socioeconomic status. They're critical for school readiness. And they're just predictive of lifelong success. And so the music is helping with their emotion, with their executive function. They can ex. They try to assess executive function in preschool children with PEG tapping. So kids, you know, kids tapping, doing rhythmic drum things. So just really incredible things to learn once again, alongside all of this practical help of how to actually do it. Different activities, this having songs for your family, family music, time. And so I'm just thrilled to have been able to have this conversation and things that I will take away from it that we're going to add to our family heading into this new school year with different playlists and things. So. What an amazing book. Resonant Minds and also the Mozart for Munchkins. And then there's the blog. What's the blog called on Psychology Today?
- [48:53]
A
Resident Minds.
- [48:54]
C
Oh, Resident Minds. Yeah, they let us use the title of it and brought it right in there. And by the way, the executive function question comes from my wife, who says, why would anybody do all this? What's the motivation? And Ellen Galinsky, who was wonderful, wrote a chapter in the book, and then Ben Calaker wrote another chapter talking about habits of life. And I think what you just described, Jenny, is what we're after. Creating those habits of life through executive functioning and using music as a lever.
- [49:23]
B
Yes, yes. We always end our show with the same question. And I don't want to run out of time. Time was a favorite memory from your childhood. That was outside.
- [49:33]
C
Sarah. I want to hear what it is.
- [49:35]
A
Because I'm curious so I can think about that for a second. Do you have yours already?
- [49:41]
C
Yeah, I do. My. You know, it's so interesting. I grew up in the 50s and early 60s, so that my musical experience is. Is not at all kids experience today. It was, right? It was being outside with my mother hanging laundry in the backyard and. And Mamas and the Papas had just come out with a song, and my mother fell in love with Monday. Monday. Can't trust that. And to this day, I could smell the laundry and I could hear my mother singing as we hung the laundry together in the backyard yard.
- [50:19]
B
That makes me emotional. It's so powerful. Those are all the sensory experiences that come back to you. And it doesn't really happen with screens. You can't. You don't have such vivid memories with the video game that you played. You could still have fun and build relationships, but those vivid memories that bring in what, the sights, the smells, you can just picture it in your mind. Wow. Hanging laundry. Mort, you're the first one to say that.
- [50:44]
C
The smell of the wooden clothes pit.
- [50:47]
B
Oh, wow. Did you spend much time outside, Sarah? I was able to. Even with the piano, there was still enough time because there wasn't as much homework and there wasn't as much screens.
- [50:59]
A
Yeah, I think I have so many. And then, of course, the thing about like, my. My children, like, what are their femur. I want to be able to dictate what their favorite memories are. Outsourced. But I think one of mine is from. We moved as kids in one of our houses was. I think you'll correct me, dad, if I'm wrong, but in my brain and memory of it, one of the houses that we had just moved into, that with the foundation all around it, had this big pile of dirt, mud. And we thought it was like quicksand. And we thought a mermaid named Mimi lived in the quicksand. And my sisters and I used to make up these elaborate stories about Mimi the mermaid. And we had this, like, we would link our pinkies together. And so it sounds that. That Mimi the mermaid linked. And so I think that's just, you know, our imaginations went wild with all these stories about. About Mimi and what was happening out there. And if we had to go inside, was she still out there? And was she okay? What was happening? And. And, you know, in the quicksand, which was probably just a big pile of dirt, but it was quicksand to us. And so I think alongside that, because it was right next door, and we had a little garden, I think that we had just started. And I don't know why it's such a vivid memory, but I think it was probably the first time that I had really recognize that, hey, if you plant things and you come up, you can eat it. And I remember pulling carrots out, dad. This is when we lived in Blauvel. And I was like, what is that? And I touched it, and it was a slug. And I was so grossed out. And I was like, but wait, this is a carrot, and we're going to eat it, but that's a slug. And so those both are so interesting because I think there was, like, in my mind, here was the pile of dirt, and here was the garden. And so they were kind of. Mimi was watching over the garden, and I touched a slug for the first time.
- [52:37]
B
So isn't it amazing? It's the simple things you had said. You know, you had started to say there, Sarah. Something about, what will my kids say? And I think we often do feel pressure, like, oh, hopefully we take them to go do something cool. But most people say the simplest things. I really loved hanging laundry with my mom. Well, she's saying, I really love playing in the dirt and making up stories about mermaids. It really is exceptional. And music is the same. I think part of the problem that we have in our world today is we're overlooking the stuff. Simple. Maybe because it seems too simple, but it's really amazing how the science is catching up and showing emphatically that these things are so good for us, for our families, for our children. What an honor. The first ever father daughter duo talking about music more. And Sarah, thank you for being here.
- [53:22]
A
Thank you so much, Jenny, for having us.
- [53:24]
C
Thank you, Jenny.