1KHO 562: The Rulebook for a High-Tech World | Dr. Jean Twenge, 10 Rules for Raising Kids in a High-Tech World

Summary

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The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast

Episode: 1KHO 562: The Rulebook for a High-Tech World
Guest: Dr. Jean Twenge
Theme: 10 Rules for Raising Kids in a High-Tech World
Air Date: September 2, 2025

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Overview

This episode features Dr. Jean Twenge, psychologist and author of 10 Rules for Raising Kids in a High-Tech World, in conversation with the host of The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast. The discussion centers on the urgent challenges families face as technology and screens come to dominate childhood—and practical, research-backed rules parents can use to help their children grow into healthy, independent adults. The episode draws from Dr. Twenge’s extensive generational research, her new book, and her personal experiences raising three teenagers. Listeners will find frank talk, practical ideas, memorable analogies, and encouragement for parents to take back charge in an overly digital age.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why This Book? The Ubiquity of Tech Questions

• Dr. Twenge describes that no matter what topic she speaks on, parents always ask: “What about my kids and technology use?” (02:20)
• Surge in technology-related child mental health concerns since 2012 is deeply concerning.
• Quote – Dr. Twenge:

  “Depression among teens doubled between 2011 and 2019... that's when everybody started to get a smartphone.” (04:48)

• Modern childhood decisions around tech have massive long-term consequences—parents feel both individually and collectively powerless.

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2. Unintended Consequences of Early Tech Adoption

• Technology presents as a convenient solution (connection, boredom) but undermines independence, focus, and social development.
• Kids who receive smartphones early often lose interest in previous hobbies, become less active, and withdraw from family/social life.
  Quote – Host reading Twenge example:

  "Suddenly novels were promptly cast aside... she danced less, she laughed less, she was quieter...” (05:27)

• Early, constant device use correlates with the dramatic drop in sustained attention, independent decision-making, and emotional resilience in teens.

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3. Parenting Styles & Setting Concrete Boundaries

• Dr. Twenge advocates for authoritative (“dolphin”) parenting: warm but firm, with clear rules and empathy, not authoritarian or permissive. (09:53)
• Analogies to societal age restrictions (driving, drinking, voting) make the case for steadfast tech “rules of the road” over “it depends on the kid” ambiguity. Quote – Dr. Twenge:

  “I think it is much more helpful to pick an age and stick with it. Just like we have done as a society for driving, for drinking alcohol, for voting...” (06:50)

• Empowers parents:

  “You are the parent. You can do that.” (09:53)

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4. Overprotection in the Real World, Underprotection Online

• Modern parents underprotect children online (where risks are vast and abstract) but overprotect in the real world (where physical risks are vanishingly rare). Memorable quote – Dr. Twenge:

  “It’s become acceptable to hand a 10-year-old a smartphone... but unacceptable to have that 10-year-old play in your front yard.” (25:14)

• Real world “boredom” and spend-time-outside strategies are core to development and cure boredom better than screens.

  “Device use doesn’t cure boredom, it actually makes it worse.” (23:49)

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5. Fostering Independence & Real-World Competence

• Children need unstructured outdoor play and daily responsibilities (laundry, meals) for independence—tech eats up time that used to build these life skills.
• Pickup games and child-driven activities teach negotiation, compromise, social skills—rare in adult-organized events or screen time. (16:31)
• Notable quote – Dr. Twenge:

  “You’re not raising children, you’re raising adults.” (14:13)

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6. Sleep, Tech, and Mental Health

• Rule: No electronics in bedrooms overnight. This is the most important rule for family tech use. (44:49)
• Teens need more sleep than adults (nine hours) but devices, early school starts, and social expectations have cut sleep dramatically. Quote – Dr. Twenge:

  “A 15-year-old needs to be asleep by 9:30 if they need to wake at 6:30. Most aren’t.” (46:50)

• Sleep deprivation is linked to depression and anxiety.

  “Teens whose parents let them stay up until midnight are 24% more likely to suffer from depression, 20% more likely to have suicidal thoughts.” (48:19)

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7. The Importance of Books, Sustained Attention, and "Deep Work"

• Kids and teens are reading fewer books—impacting not just academic success, but empathy, critical thinking, and satisfaction.
• Schools are assigning fewer books; many smart students arrive in college unable to focus for more than a few minutes or read long texts. (28:03, 29:46)
• Generational shifts: 40% of high schoolers haven’t read a non-assigned book in the last year. (33:27)
• Tech erodes deep focus—attention spans shrink, making long-form reading and in-depth learning rare.

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8. Developmental Stages & Tech Readiness

• The difference between ages 13 and 16 is enormous; maturity blooms late in adolescence. Neither tech companies nor society considered this when allowing social media at 13. (40:58) Memorable quote – Dr. Twenge:

  “What developmental expert ever said 13 is the perfect age for social media? No one.” (40:58)

• Dr. Twenge suggests phones and social media should not come before the driver’s license (16); some parents tie it to the child’s ability to earn and buy their own device. (42:40)
• Issues like bullying, anxiety, quantifiable social popularity are magnified by screens in early teen years.

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9. Rules > Conversations

• Parental education and open discussion about tech dangers are critical, but NOT enough on their own. Rules are still needed. (53:22) Quote – Dr. Twenge:

  “You’re going to expect them to put that phone down and cheerfully go to bed at 9pm?... Left to their own devices, that’s what they’re going to do—spend seven hours on the iPad.” (53:22)

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Practical Tips & Memorable Moments

• Pick a phone/social media age and stick with it—treat it like driver’s licenses/buying alcohol. (06:50, 42:40)
• Give kids stock phrases to deflect tech peer pressure:
  “I can’t text you back right away because I go to bed at 10.” or “My parents make us put our phones away during dinner.” (36:22, 37:50)
• Expect boundary testing—including lying/sneaking devices. Persevere anyway; don’t give up. (49:19, 52:42)
• Identify 25 fun, screen-free activities your family loves—and do them. (38:50)
• Push for sleep: no devices in bedrooms, stick to a consistent bedtime. (44:49, 48:19)

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Inspiring & Notable Quotes

• Dr. Twenge (on giving kids a smartphone)

  “If your 13-year-old wants to drive a car, there’s no question, there’s a law. We need the same for tech.” (06:50)

• On the shifts in parenting:

  “We’re a little softer. We say, ‘Eh, everybody else is doing it.’ But our parents would have laughed in our faces.” (09:53)

• On boredom and devices:

  “Device use doesn’t cure boredom, it actually makes it worse.” (23:49)

• On the most important tech rule:

  “If there’s only one rule you follow, the rule is do not put electronic devices in kids’ bedrooms overnight. No electronic devices.” (44:49)

• On independence:

  “You’re not raising children, you’re raising adults.” (14:13)

• On the necessity of rules:

  “Do not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.” (49:50)

• On why conversations aren’t enough:

  “You should absolutely talk to your kids about online dangers... but if you expect that to be enough, it’s just not going to happen.” (53:22)

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• 02:20 — Why Dr. Twenge wrote this book: every group asks about kids and tech
• 05:27 — “Screen wedded to her palm”: real-world effects of tech on home life
• 06:50 — Societal analogies for age restrictions and why concrete rules matter
• 09:53 — Authoritative (“dolphin”) parenting: loving and firm
• 14:13 — “You’re not raising children, you’re raising adults”
• 16:31–17:23 — Real world play and competence: what’s lost to screens and structured activities
• 23:49–25:14 — Boredom and device use: research says more screen time, more boredom
• 25:14 — Overprotected outside, underprotected online – the great inversion
• 28:03, 29:46 — Reading’s decline, impact on focus and academic success
• 40:58 — “No one ever said 13 was the right age for social media”; the developmental perspective
• 44:49 — “No devices in bedrooms overnight”—the most fundamental rule
• 48:19 — Sleep, tech, and mental health: concrete statistics
• 53:22 — Why discussions are not enough—rules are essential
• 56:29 — The book's goal: the intersection of research and real parenting experience

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Final Thoughts

Dr. Twenge’s “10 Rules for Raising Kids in a High-Tech World” is a pragmatic, research-driven, and parent-tested antidote to the chaos of modern digital life. The episode leaves listeners with empowering takeaways:

• Parents must reclaim their authority—rules are not only allowed, but essential.
• Filtering or discussing tech use alone is insufficient to safeguard mental health, social skills, and family life.
• Delaying tech, requiring outdoor and real-world interaction, upholding sleep rules, and encouraging reading are key.
• If you choose only one rule: no devices in the bedroom overnight.
• You are not alone in this struggle. Perseverance over perfection will yield lasting good—for families, communities, and the next generation.

Recommended Reading:

• 10 Rules for Raising Kids in a High-Tech World by Dr. Jean Twenge
• Free Range Kids by Lenore Skenazy
• Generations and iGen by Dr. Twenge

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Listen to this episode for more practical examples, heartfelt stories, and evidence-backed guidance on reclaiming childhood from screens—and raising capable, confident adults in a world of rapid technological change.

Transcript

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

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[Podcast Host]

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[Dr. Jean Twenge]

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[Podcast Host]

Best is greater than any. Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. I am so excited. I have been waiting for this one for like weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks. Gene Twangy is back. Welcome.

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

Thank you.

[Podcast Host]

I think I'm like, I'm overly. I don't think I'm overly excited. I think I'm appropriately excited because you have a new book coming out called 10 rules for raising Kids in a High Tech World and it is absolutely fantastic. It'll be out by the time this podcast goes live. You were one of the authors way back when I read Igen and I've also read Generations. I still like, desperately wanted to talk with you. And so you said yes so graciously. And I refer to you a lot because you said in our first conversation, you were talking about being a college professor and how so many of these kids come. I don't know how many. Some kids at least come to college these days. And you've seen the change where they can't make simple decisions without asking their parents.

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

And.

[Podcast Host]

And that really struck me because no one wants that. No one really wants that for their child. You want your child to be able to go off into the world and, and to be confident and to be competent and to soar. And so it stuck with me. Your books are fantastic. And this newest one out, which I love the format of it, Dr. Twenge, 10 rules for raising Kids in a High Tech World. It's very helpful because you just lay it out. Here's your rules, all the 10 rules. So could you just give us a little bit of background on why this book? Because you were talking about how you're. You speak all over the world. You know, you're going to these different places. You're talking about generational change. You're an expert on that. And then people have questions at the end, and I'm sure they have questions on your. What you're talking about your topics, but they're also like, hey, what about the technology? What about the technology? And you said, no matter what the group, a version of one question always came up within the first few minutes. What should I do about my kids and their technology use.

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

Yeah, that's how it's gone because, yeah, I give talks a lot of places. So, you know, my other life as a researcher of generational differences, I'll talk on generations in the workplace, you know, or go to a university and speak on that topic. And sure, I get questions on those. But, yeah, obviously technology plays a big role in generational differences, and so it brings that to mind for people, which is just such a huge problem for so many parents these days, of trying to make sure their kids are safe online, trying to make sure that their kids aren't on their phone every second of every day, and trying to make sure their kids do develop that resilience and independence that they. They need to be successful in the long run. Parents are struggling, and I'm a parent who now has three teenagers, so I am right there with you. It is a big struggle, but there's certainly some things I learned along the way in the research and with my own kids, and I really wanted to share those things with a lot of people.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, it's a much needed book. You said even in every podcast that you do all these radio shows, you say what everyone really wanted to talk about is, why are these kids so depressed and what can we do about it? And you talk about how these spikes started to appear. You know, you've been studying this for a long time, and you said all of a sudden, around 2012, all of a sudden there's these spikes, mental health, you know, happiness and related to all of these different things. And a lot of it has to do with the phones. So can you just reiterate? Because I think this is so important that there are unintended consequences that we don't know are going to happen, like kids going off to college and not being able to make decisions before we pop into these rules. But things like not being able to read that, you know, they can't focus, or all of a sudden you're fighting so much because, you know, you thought it was a solution to give them the phone, and now, you know, it's just kind of gone off the rails. What are some of the things that parents need to consider before giving out the technology?

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

So, you know, it's very, very tempting for parents these days to give their kid a phone because every other kid has a phone, or to let their kid have social media because all their friends are on social media. So we're trying to solve an individual problem that's actually a group problem. But I agree with both things. I think we have a group problem. I think we need to work together. But I think parents also need to step up individually and delay, delay, delay, delay on a lot of this technology because there are those unintended consequences. I mean, we had early on this idea of technology was going to solve everything and it was going to be amazing. And then we saw some of the consequences. So those trends in adolescent mental health are just one example. That depression among teens doubled between 2011 and 2019. So before the pandemic and what happened around that time, first when I saw those trends, I had no idea what could be causing that. And it was completely misaligned with the economy. But then I realized, you know, that's when everybody started to get a smartphone. That's when social media use became much, much more common among teens.

[Podcast Host]

You talk about how it can be just so quickly. Like you, you give an example of this 10 year old girl. She's the only one without the smartphone, she feels left out. And so the parents give her one and you write this. Suddenly she wasn't playing with her younger siblings as much. Suddenly novels were promptly cast aside. She wasn't around to help out with dinner. She danced less, she laughed less, she was quieter, the home was quieter. Within a matter of weeks, the screen wedded to her palm had literally transformed her childh. So those are the things that parents need to think about. If you want your child to be able to focus long enough to read a few pages in a textbook. These are things that you need to know about. And you even talk about how the college students that you talk to that come and say, my parents did have rules around technology. They say they're grateful. So this book is 10 rules and I love Dr. Twenge. This thought of people used to have rules like you. You give out this example of and it was so funny. You're like if, you know, if your 13 year old wants to drive a car, like there's no question about whether or not that's yes or a no. Those analogies are really important and I haven't actually read those anywhere else. In society there are a lot of age restrictions that exist. Can you talk about that in relation to giving kids a smartphone?

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

Yeah. So this is why I think these concrete rules are so useful. So I got frustrated as both a parent and a researcher reading a lot of the advice in this area is, oh, it depends on the kid, it depends on the family. Some kids are ready, some kids aren't. Of course that has some truth to it, but it's Extremely unhelpful because when people want to know and the questions they ask, you know, when I give talks, when should I give my kid a phone, when are they going to be ready for social media? And we have a lot more research now than when I first, you know, started looking into this. I and everybody else knows a lot more just from the experiences that we and our kids have had with these technologies. I think we have some answers to those questions now and I think it is much more helpful to pick an age and stick with it. Just like we have done as a society for driving, for drinking alcohol, for voting or joining the military. We picked one and it's a good place to start. And I think for technology it's, it's very, very needed to have those guardrails in place and those specific ages in mind.

[Podcast Host]

And it is so true. There may be a 13 year old that could drive a car. Well, maybe, right, Maybe they grew up on a farm and they drove around the family tractor and they drove the truck. It could be that there is a 14 year old that could have that responsibility. But even so, there is a law, it's 16 and you talk about age to buy cigarettes, all of these different things. And that in days past kids would lose privileges like if they didn't use the thing that they were in the way that they were supposed to. If they got a speeding ticket, for instance, they're going to lose the car keys for a period of time. And so even to have those consequences, the book is, is really needed. It's really, really needed and it gives you a, a better perspective and the push you need, I think, to take the reins as the parent to do what needs to be done for the sake of your children's health. You, I thought this was funny. You said we're just going to go through a couple of the rules and parents pick up the book to read the other ones. 10 rules for raising Kids in a High Tech World. So rule number one is you're in charge. Like you have to be in charge. You can't just like let it be willy nilly. Like you said, pick an agent, stick with it, have a rule in your family or whatever it is, you are the one in charge. Change if it's not working. But you write this. Imagine that when you were a kid you went to your parents and you said, hey, I'm 10 now, I want you to buy me a gadget. It costs a thousand dollars, it's forty dollars every month I have it, I'll be able to communicate with my friends and with adults I've never met for every second of the day. And by the way, I'm never going to look up for my hand again. And also, I'm hoping to take a couple hundred pictures of myself in a skimpy bikini. I'm going to post them where all my friends can see it at school. And also people I don't know, and they're going to tell me how I look. And you're like, every parent would have said no, but today most parents are saying yes.

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

Right? Because that's a. That's a smartphone. And then that second one is a pretty accurate description of Instagram.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Yes. Yes. Okay. So just remind us that we need to be in charge.

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

Yeah. So I always want to be clear. You know, there's different parenting styles. Psychology has concluded that the authoritative, or what some people call the dolphin parenting style is. Is the best because it's loving but firm. So you're not authoritarian. You're my way or the highway. And I'm not even going to explain the rules. And I'm this authority figure who we're not really going to talk all that much casually. You know, you don't want to go there. We also don't want to be, hey, it's going to be no rules, and you're my friend, and, hey, if you screw up, I'm not going to do anything. I'm going to say, oh, you must have been in a bad mood. And I'm never going to say no, that's taking it too far. That's permissive parenting, which I call sea sponge parenting, because you're just very soft, squishy. So in the middle is the best way to be, which can be tough for a lot of modern parents. It is sometimes hard to think, to realize, you know, you're an authority figure and that, yes, you can make rules, and maybe you didn't grow up with these technologies, but you can still make rules around them. You are the parent. You can do that. And we know enough now to go ahead and do that. It's really. It is really interesting to me how parenting has changed. When I give that example that you mentioned about saying, hey, I'm 10, and I want this thing that's $1,000. What I show in my talks is pictures of parents from the 70s and 80s, just a cue to my audience of parents of what their parents were like and what those times were like and how their parents would have not only said no, but in some cases, laughed in their faces. You know, like, are you kidding me? No way. Yet these days, as parents, you know, we are a little softer. We do sometimes say, oh, well, everybody else is doing it. Okay. I don't want my kid to be left out when our parents very well might have said, oh, you want to do this? Because everybody else is doing it. Well, if everybody else jumped off a cliff, would you. You remember that? Nobody says that now.

[Podcast Host]

Why is that?

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

I don't know. I mean, I think a lot of it is. Is just that, the changes in parenting styles and individualism. And there are good things about that. There are good things about being more open with our kids and being loving with our kids, but we can't take that so far that we don't have rules. We have to have rules.

[Podcast Host]

I listened to someone recently who said they were talking about how there's something to be said about learning to make do with what you have. And, you know, if I were to think back, I was like, you know, you get two pairs of pants for the school year, two or three pairs of pants. And there was other kids that had, you know, that never wore the same outfit twice. Like, I knew kids at school, they never wore the same outfit twice for the whole year. But some families had more boundaries or they had financial restrictions or whatever. And you do. You just kind of learn to make do with what you have. And so it's. It's like a little bit more of an indulgent age, it feels like.

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

I think so. I think it's. It's just an idea of, you know, we want to give our kids as much as we can, but we don't always realize that that has downsides, too.

[Podcast Host]

Right. That's for sure. Yeah. So you have all these tech rules that you talk about that you can go over with your kids when you do decide to give them the phone. So those are important to know about. You talk about their time is such a precious resource. And then you also remind. You can go back. You can walk things back. Remember, remember, you're in charge. You're in charge. You have to be in charge. It's never too late. And then you can make a change. So that's one of the rules that's in the book. And just the thought of what did people do a couple decades ago, they would have said, absolutely not. You can't have that. So another thing that I just. I really think is important piece that we're missing that we don't think through is this piece about how kids are just not ready for life. So you say, give your kids Real world freedom. Gen X played outside until the street lights came on, which is the name of my book. It's called until the Street Lights Come On. Gen X played outside until the street lights come came on. But now we're overprotecting them. It leaves kids unprepared for adulthood. Can you talk about the kids that are scared to make phone calls? The kids that get in fights with their roommates and their parents have to step in and they're in college? What is the outcome of this sort of hyper parenting?

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

Yeah. And, you know, I want to acknowledge this is the product of a lot of converging trends. So there's the helicopter parenting piece. There are some good pieces to this, too, where kids are taking longer to grow up, where they're also less likely to drink alcohol and have sex when they're teenagers. That's good. Most parents think that's pretty good. It's also the confluence of a lot of this technology which conspires to keep them at home rather than going out. But I think we do have to grab our roles as parents and realize, and someone told me this when my kids were young, and I love this, you're not raising children, you're raising adults. So powerful and so true that that has to be your goal of. You know, you look at your kids and you think, oh, you know, if they, if I let them do it, they're going to mess it up. Well, if you don't let them do it, then they're never going to learn how to do it. And then they're going to get to college or adulthood and be scared to do it. And that's playing out over and over with young adults and with high school students and college students. You just see it everywhere. Where, yes, they're scared to make phone calls. They have a lot of social anxiety about interacting with people face to face. They're just not spending as much time, you know, with friends in person. So they get to college and then have a hard time. And just the whole idea that the word adult is now a verb, as in, I'm done adulting today or I don't want to adult today. Well, do you want to go back to being a child? Because that's really the, the only alternative we need to raise them to be adults.

[Podcast Host]

Well, and I think maybe some would say yes.

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

What's that?

[Podcast Host]

Would some of them maybe say yes?

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

Yes, some of them would absolutely say yes to that. But that's not a realistic proposition.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Where they don't have these different responsibilities. So you talk about, like, this is a small example, but a significant one about when kids would just go play sports together. So you say travel soccer or even, like the YMCA soccer is very different because kids are not calling the shots. The adults are. Adults are in charge of the travel soccer. They're in charge probably of the YMCA soccer. Can you talk about what skills a kid would develop in, let's say, like a pickup game of sports?

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

Well, when you're doing pickup sports, or even if it's not a set sport, you're just playing outside. You have to learn how to negotiate. You have to get. Learn to get along with other people. A lot of times in those games, kids are setting rules. Most Gen X and millennial parents have a memory of doing this with their friends in the neighborhood of, okay, we're going to play football. Well, where's, where's the touchdown line? And how do we decide, you know, whether you made it across that line? We're not going to, you know, get out spray paint like they have in there.

[Podcast Host]

We don't have any hired referees.

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

Right? We don't have any hired referees. So we're going to have to figure this out, you know, and you know, what, what are, what are the rules you're playing basketball? Like, who's going to call whether somebody's traveling or not? Like, how. What kind of argument are you going to have about that? And it you learn negotiating skills, you learn a lot from those situations, and.

[Podcast Host]

None of it happens when the adult is the one that's driving it. So you're talking about, I think, alongside of having rules that, you know, if someone's thinking about a rule like this age, and this is when you go to bed, and this is when the phone gets put away. This is really about how you want to structure your life and making sure that kids have the freedom that they need to, to grow in the real world. The other day, my lamp broke. It's my bedside lamp, and I use it to read late into the night because I'm always preparing for this podcast. It broke. It actually won't turn off unless I unplug it. And so I needed to find a new lamp for my bedside. And my favorite place to go, of all places to go, is Wayfair. Wayfair is a perfect place to go if your tableside lamp breaks, but it's also the perfect place to kick off your back to school and fall season prep. Everything comes so fast. And they have an amazing selection of things from cozy bedding and linens to storage solutions for every room. They always have you covered. Plus their huge selection of outdoor items makes it easy to find just what we need to transition smoothly into the fall. Besides lamps and linens, they even have playsets. We have the most incredible playset in our backyard that we got from Wayfair about six years ago and the kids still use it constantly. Whether you're refreshing your workspace with a new desk or making weeknight dinners a breeze with quality cookware, Wayfair literally has it all. And with free fast and hassle free delivery, even on big stuff like sofas and din dining tables, there is no better time to shop, get organized, refreshed and back into routine. For way less. Head over to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's Wayfair W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com Wayfair Every style, every home fall is about to be in full swing. And because it's already starting to get a little chilly in the mornings and evenings, I've been slowly but surely refreshing my wardrobe with pieces that actually work. Things I'll wear on repeat, not just once. That's where Quince comes in. They make it easy to stay warm, look polished and save money, all without sacrificing quality. Speaking of chillier temps, I'm absolutely loving the Mongolian cashmere gloves I recently got because my hands seem to always be cold and I can easily toss them in my purse or backpack just in case the weather changes quickly. I've also been eyeing their wool coats. They look totally designer but cost a fraction of the price and they're 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They start at just $50 and are incredibly soft. What makes Quince different is how smart their model is. They partner directly with ethical top tier factories and cut out the middlemen so you get luxury quality clothing at half the price of similar brands. It's a wardrobe upgrade that feels smart, stylish and effortless. Honestly, I've even been browsing their bedding and travel bags lately. Quint's is turning into a one stop shop around here. Keep it classy and cozy this fall with long lasting staples from Quint's. Go to quince.com outside for free shipping and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com outside healing takes courage, but it also takes the right support. What if it started with a step away from the noise, a proven approach and a puppy? Capstone Wellness is here to help with a Unique model founded on faith and clinical excellence. For teen boys and young men struggling with trauma, mental health and addiction, Capstone Treatment center provides a safe place to begin their healing journey. Every boy receives a Labrador retriever puppy on admission and takes that puppy home when they graduate. Paired with deep therapy work, these pups help teach responsibility, nurture attachment and bring families together. For individuals, couples or families who aren't looking for residential care, vine and Root Intensives cover months of world class counseling in a concentrated multi day package designed to retrace hurt back to the root. For over 24 years, Capstone has helped thousands of families on their path to healing. Learn more at capstonewellness.com 1000hours. That's capstonewellness.com/1000hours. You talk about this and this seems like such a missing piece. Dr. Twenge like this actually makes life easier for the parent. So it just seems so off base that we're making things harder for ourself while at the same time making things harder for our kids in the long run. Can you talk about how if we can learn to a little bit let go of the fear that this is really going to benefit the child, but it's also going to benefit the parent because the kid is more independent?

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

Yeah. And I have to give credit here to some folks who've done some great work in this area. So first among us is Lenore Skenazi who heads the organization called Let Grow. She has a TED Talk that's just out and it's called spend less time with your children or something like that, which is kind of captures it. It's not just that. It's that when a lot of the things that you can do to give your kids independence will help you sometimes directly, sometimes indirectly. So some of the direct things your kids can do their own laundry starting at 9 or 10. They can start helping with cooking around that time and soon afterward make entire meals and then you don't have to cook that night. If you say, hey, yeah, go ahead, you know, it's a weekend day, go play with your friends in the neighborhood, then wow, you got all that time back on the weekend. It is a win, win situation.

[Podcast Host]

You say one reason parents today are so stressed is because they're spending more time than ever with their kids talking about Lenore's TED Talk. And one reason kids are so stressed is the same thing. It's so good, it's just not working. We're both stressed because of the same reason you say both generations need more time apart. So that's an important thing to know. I know you talked about Lenore in this book. Free Range Kids is the funniest, isn't it? Parenting book.

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

It's amazing. Yeah, yeah, she's hilarious.

[Podcast Host]

I snort laugh through the whole thing. I've read it twice. So you talk about her, you say, she's a fabulously engaging writer and quite possibly the funniest person I know. If you wanted kids to get kidnapped, they would have to be outside unattended for750,000 years on average for that to happen. She's got that in her book and then you mentioned it in yours. So yeah, she's fantastic. So you talk about them when the kids are independent, more independent, the job as a parent becomes easier and you do fewer things for your kids and gain back some time to work, relax or whatever. It is a win win. But then you're also talking about boredom. So it's kind of a similar thing where you say using a device doesn't cure boredom, it actually makes it worse.

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

Yep. Yeah. So this was in the process of writing, writing the book. You know, I'm a researcher and some, you know, also, you know, always keeping an eye out for new research. And that was what just really amazed me is that it's so common that both adults and kids, I'm bored. And then what do you turn to? Well, what's, what's right there, the laptop, the phone. And that's actually linked to being more bored, not less. It just doesn't do what we think it's going to do for us. And then you look at things in the real world exactly the opposite. You go and spend time with friends because, oh, I'm bored, let's go spend time with friends. That actually does cure boredom.

[Podcast Host]

And there's the research to back it. You wrote in one experiment, people who had their phones available during conversations with friends were more likely to say they were bored than those who didn't have their phones available. So it's not just that boredom leads to device use, device use also leads to boredom. And you say it may seem counterintuitive, but the real world is what is actually engaging to the child. So that also would make your job harder. So if you're like the type of parent that doesn't want to give real world freedom and so you're having to control, and then you have to cook all the meals and you have to do all the laundry and you have to control control that makes your life harder. And then you hand your kid the device and they get More bored. That also makes your life harder. So it's basically like we're doing this backwards.

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

Yeah, exactly. And you know, some people want to challenge the idea of okay, we're going to restrict technology but then give them real world freedom. You know, isn't that contradictory? And I don't think it is at all because we have, and I'm not the first person to say this, we have underprotected kids in the digital world and overprotected them in the real world. So we're trying to get things back in to balance. And the thing that's so odd about the last 10, 15 years and how, you know, parenting and attitudes around kids have shifted is it, it's become, and I mean this is mind blowing, but it's true. It's become acceptable to hand a 10 year old a smartphone where they can easily get on pornography and social media and see all kinds of stuff, but unacceptable to have that 10 year old play in your front yard where you know, really what's the worst that's going to happen? They're going to skin their knee. In the vast, vast majority of cases that that's it, they're gonna, they're gonna play with their friends. They unlikely in your front yard to stumble across pornography, for example. Just not going to happen.

[Podcast Host]

Right. And I think part of the trick there is that you have to make sure there are some friends to play with. And since there aren't as many, you might have to put in the effort as a parent to go pick up a couple kids and have them play in the front yard or coordinate some of that to a degree. But they are safe. Like that quote from Lenore Skinnies book is 750,000 years is what it would take for your kid to, you know, get nabbed by a neighbor.

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

Right.

[Podcast Host]

It's really not that common. And so I think this is a key of the problem, Dr. Twenge, is that nobody really knows what to fill the time with. So you had this question in here. If kids aren't using devices as much, well, what are they supposed to do? So you know, I would say go outside. I mean that would be one absolutely. But also reading and this is something that is so near and dear to my heart because books are a staple of my enjoyment of adulthood and if I did not have books, I don't think that my life would be as fulfilling as it is. It really is a large part of like my life satisfaction. The things I think about, the things I talk about, my growth in enjoyment in novels and you say, as a college professor, I routinely meet smart kids who are, who have read very few books before they go to college. They have little idea how to focus their attention for longer than a few minutes and have trouble succeeding in college courses that require reading textbooks, novels, or even long magazine articles. Can you talk to the parents about the importance of especially like balancing out that screen use, obviously with outdoor time and movement, but also with reading?

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

Yeah, absolutely. And it could be fiction, nonfiction, just a book. And that can be a book on a Kindle. I'm a big fan of Kindles, actually. So there's, you know, some role for technology because it's the only thing you can do on it is read. So it just opens up the world in a way that teaches empathy, that gives you a new perspective on things that really can't come from a short social media post. It's just different. And it's also an academic thing that reading is just so, it's so fundamental. Reading long form text is so fundamental to academic success. It is really tough in colleges these days because not only are fewer kids reading for fun, but a lot of high school English classes are not assigning books anymore. So I know this from my own kids and there weren't a pretty good school district and my oldest, when she was in junior year English, they didn't read a single book the whole semester. It was only short stories and essays. What I know, and I know this isn't just me. I've seen lots of discussion from both teachers and parents about this online because.

[Podcast Host]

The teachers probably were doing it. And then once this change hits 2012, moving forward, are they just finding like no one is reading it anyway, so I'm going to adjust what I'm doing.

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

Yeah, I think that, I think that's the thinking. And look, as, as a fellow teacher, I get it. It's the idea of trying to meet kids where they are, but I think that can be taken too far. And I think this is an example of where it was taken too far. Yeah, it may be a struggle to get them to read, but they have to learn how to read books in high school if they haven't already learned that in middle school.

[Podcast Host]

This is a huge generational shift because if I were to think back about my 11th and 12th grade year, I read a lot of books and substantial books and books that were very long. My husband would say the same. So do you like to extrapolate out from these things that you're learning? I mean, I know you're researching generations past and here's the changes and here's the data. But I wonder what happens to a child who doesn't read and their whole life they don't read and they become an adult and that's not a part of their adult life. Or what happens to a child that is really struggling in college to make decisions. Because you talk about how like in generations past when you say when kids went off to college or I guess they're adults by that point, right? When they went off to college or got their first job, they already had plenty of experience in independence and decision making. But that's not what's happening these days. Do you think ahead, like what, what kind of parents will these kids be? What kind of kids will they raise? What kind of challenges will they face?

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

Yeah, well, I mean, I'm such a data oriented person that, you know, I, I, I, I want to wait for the data before I really know for sure. The thing that really concerns me the most is the mental health issues that so many in this generation are struggling with. Particularly because we know from clinical psychology that the younger you are when you experience your first episode of depression, the more likely it is to reoccur throughout your life. And given that, I think those, those mental health issues are potentially will follow this generation well into adulthood. And that's really scary because that will be potentially for a good segment of them, just debilitating to their careers, to their relationships and just overall to living life. And I don't ever want to be read as talking about those statistics in terms of criticism. It is not. Those are real and it means people are suffering. It's one of the reasons I'm so passionate about trying to solve these issues is how can we change things going forward so we don't have more kids getting to their teenage and young adult years depressed.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, there's a lot of long term ramifications. And I know like you said, you want to have the data. I'm, I tend, I'm always like, I'm thinking, well what could it be like? What kind of parent are you when you've grown up and not really read much? You know, do you know then to read to your children? Are you going to love reading books with them? What if you're not that experienced at making decisions and then you become a parent and as a parent you now you have 6,000 decisions to make every single day and you're trying to kind of wade through all of that with raising a child and their ages and stages are constantly changing or what is it like if you haven't spent a lot of time outside and you don't know the healing power out there. And then on top of that, like you said, if you're struggling with depression and mental health issues, there's no data, but you can kind of think what it might be.

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

Yeah, absolutely. The reading book thing. Books thing in particular. Yeah. What's going to be the impact of that on parent, you know, when as Gen Z becomes parents and as they have their own kids? I mean, I don't want to get too far into this, but I think we've already seen the impact of people not reading as much long form text on our politics and our civic life.

[Podcast Host]

And you talk about how 40% of high schoolers have not read a single book in the last year that wasn't assigned for school. And if there's nothing assigned for school, then they're reading nothing.

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

Well, I mean they're reading Instagram posts and yeah, nothing. Essays for school, but longer form text. And you combine that with just getting so used to scrolling through things online, you get very short attention spans. And then it becomes difficult, even if you are assigned a book, to sit down and read it for longer than 10 minutes at a time.

[Podcast Host]

Right? Yeah. You say to read a book in college, it helps if you read a book in high school and it helps.

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

If you read a book in middle school. That was the sub headline on an Atlantic article about a year ago.

[Podcast Host]

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[Dr. Jean Twenge]

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[Podcast Host]

So the book is fantastic because it has so many practical ideas and I think it helps coming from a mom of teens right now because you're actually in the thick of it and you try different things. And so it's very practical. It's called 10 Rules for Raising Kids in a High Tech World. And one of the things that you brought up, which was just so eye opening for me, like it made me think back to my own parents. So one of the things that kids will say, and this is an example of how practical the book is, is they want to keep their phone glued to their hand all the time because they have this pressure to text back immediately. So there's a lot of pressure for that into the night. You know, you want to be part of these group texts and so you have different things that you teach the kid to say. Like sometimes I'm talking with my parents or at dinner, my parents make us put our phones away or I can't text you back right away because I go to bed at 10 o' clock or these different types of things and it really did remind me about my own childhood. My parents did not want boys to call the house. So I remember being at school like in middle school, right? And you know, a kid would not often because I was a goofy, weird kid. But in middle school, like someone would ask, you know, they want to have your phone number and if it was a boy, I would say, no, you're not allowed to call my house. Like, my parents aren't going to be happy with that. And so that's an interesting thing that I guess has gone by the wayside. Like, these kids feel like they can't say I'm only allowed to text from 6 to 7pm or something like that.

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

Yeah, but I think they can say that. I think they, they can say, I mean, I'm joking, but I'm not joking. All kids know that parents are lame. Oh, my parents won't let me do that. You know, I mean, I tell, I tell my kids that, you know, if you need a reason for something, just throw me under the bus. I don't care. Say that your mom won't let you do it. You know, I think with the, with the instant text response. The other piece too is, and I tell kids this when I give talks to middle school students and high school students, I tell them, have that conversation with your friends. Say, hey, if I don't text you back right away, I'm not mad at you. It just means I'm doing something else. I'm trying to take a break from my phone or I'm sleeping. And I think being upfront about that works really well. And your friends will understand. They understand just like you do the pressure around the phone and getting a break from it. And if they say, oh, that's terrible and you have to text me back right away, well, that person is really your friend, then it's good.

[Podcast Host]

It's so practical to be upfront. Like you say, you talk about how tech time in it like intruded on your family trip. So then you learn like, we're not going to do that. Or you talk about making a list of 25 things that you love to do that don't include screens or what if screens didn't exist, what would you be doing? You say, if you have a backyard, push your kids out into it. So very, very practical advice for parents in this book and very, very needed advice. You had this sentence as well that said, kids mature a lot from 13 to 16. And I taught high school, so I saw that firsthand. I have always said I think ninth grade should be part of junior high and that there is a big difference.

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

It used to be.

[Podcast Host]

Did you know that in some places sometimes it is, sometimes they still.

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

Yeah, back in like the 19, in the 1950s, I say, so when my, when my parents went to, went to school, 9th grade was not part of high school.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, like, yeah, That's a generational change. So I think that a very few places still have that. But you are saying across the board. Across the board it was that.

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

Yeah, yeah, it was. As far as I know that. Yeah. It used to be that that was junior high. Junior high was 7, 8 and 9. And then high school was grades 10, 11 and 12.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. And that to me is the most developmentally appropriate because I also think the sixth grader should be still with the kindergartners.

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

And there's a ton of research on that showing that that is the case, that when sixth grade is part of elementary school that there are better outcomes. And there are some districts that still do that.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, that's so fascinating. I love that you brought that up because you've done all that research of the generational changes. So as a high school teacher, there is a wild difference between a 9th grader and a 10th grader. Like age 15. Things change. But can you just remind parents of what might happen between 13 and 16? Because sometimes it's like, well, they're a teenager now, maybe they're heading into high school, so I'll give them a phone. But we forget that because there's not much difference between a 33 year old and a 36 year old. But there is a lot of difference between a 13 year old and a 16 year old.

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

Absolutely. And my youngest is 13, so I have that front of mind every day. It's just there's that three years is so crucial for development. And just to put this in context, one reason why it's relevant is that the current law puts the age of so called Internet adulthood at 13. So legally you can get a social media account at 13. But think about this. What developmental expert or parent or educator ever said 13, middle school, beginning of puberty, that is the perfect time to introduce social media. No one would ever say that it wasn't put there for developmental purpose. It was put there as a compromise with the tech companies back in 1998, actually at the dawn of the Internet. So it's not, it was not chosen for any real logical or developmental reason. And then you think about the development that happens for, you know, between 13 and 16 of, you know, bullying goes down, kids get more settled into where they are with their friends. They get so much more confidence in who they are. They're not as, you know, by 16, they're not as into doing whatever my friends do just because my friends are doing it. We trust kids to drive at 16 to have more maturity and responsibility and independence at that Age. There's just so much that happens in those, those three years. So that's, that's why 16 is, is, you know, a crucial year in a couple of the rules in my book, including for social media and for getting an Internet enabled smartphone.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, you talk about the first smartphone going with the driver's license. And 16 is so much better than 13 or 14. Choose an age and stick with it or make the rule that you can have a smartphone when you can buy it yourself. So then you're tacking on work as well. So these are really important ideas. It is really easy to forget that there are massive developmental changes year over year over year for children. You know, 5 is different than 7 and 9 is different than 12 and 13 is different than 16. We had a really awful incident at a church that we were attending and our son was 14 and like, that's still pretty young, you know, like he was getting bullied. And I think sometimes people are like, well, you know, let him be an adult or let him grow up or. And I'm like, no, like he, you know, there's a difference. Like 14 is still in that seventh, eighth, ninth grade age where there are some big differences there. And I definitely noticed it firsthand when I taught. So just remember, you know, they seem like they're maturing, they're, you know, they're getting older, they're maybe taller than you. Whatever the situation, they may look more.

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

Like an adult, but their brain is still that of an adolescent. And in this case a young adolescent, that's right where their, their reasoning ability is not as there, their self control is not as there, their emotions are heightened and, and you know, I remember what it was like to be that age and everybody feels misunderstood at that age. You know, it's so common and you know, you're trying to get a handle on your identity and your emotions and all of these things and it's, it is a tough age. And I think, you know, parents should keep that in mind too, that, you know, when I talk about these things in terms of the brain differences, you know, I'm not trying to be patronizing. I think it actually is really important to understand that, to try to be empathic with what your kids are going through of. And most parents can think back to being that age and remember how hard it is because you're just not equipped to handle a lot of the stuff that you have to handle at that, at that age. So as a parent, you know, you gotta think about is don't give them yet another thing they have to handle like social media.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, that's so hard. And you talk about how popularity can be quantified and so what a difficult thing for kids to have to deal with at those already difficult ages. So talking about 13 to 16, it's really important to remember, I want to read you a sentence that my kids were like, what? Okay, so you're talking about sleep. So we have three teens as well and then a 12 year old and a nine year old. So I was like, oh, I'm going to talk to my kids about this. So you're talking about how, you're talking about sleep and the importance of sleep. And this is a book with 10 rules in it. You say if there's only one rule that you follow, the rule is do not put electronic devices in kids bedrooms overnight. No electronic devices. You even talk about how even if it's off, it affects sleep. And there's been studies on that, even if it's not on. Okay, so no electronics at night. And so you're talking about how much sleep they need and that this is a huge risk factor because kids might feel depressed, but it might just be that they're overly tired, they might feel anxious. It might be stemming back to the fact that they're overly tired. Okay, so you're talking about how much sleep that they actually need. And you say this, a 15 year old on a schedule to get enough sleep if they have to get up at 6:30 for a 7am bus. So that's only a half hour to get ready. If you have a 7am bus. A 15 year old needs to be asleep by 9:30. My kids were like wait, no, what? I was like talking to them about that. They were shocked and, and it was eye opening for me because we do not, I mean 10:30 feels like kind of normal. Ish. And we do, we homeschool so our start time can be a little bit later. However, it was interesting even the times that you put in because you talked about the bus coming at 6:7. My bus came at 6:15. My bus came at 615 because school started at 7:15. The start time was 7:15.

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

I know. And so this is part of the problem and I completely acknowledge that with these early school start times here in California, high schools now have to start at 8:30 or later. So that has really helped. However, unfortunately, middle schools don't have to start that late. They start at 8 and my 13 year old has to be up by 6:34 7am bus. And it's so hard.

[Podcast Host]

It's so hard because for me then if the bus came at, the bus would come at 6:15. And I used to get up in the fives like 5:40 or 5:50. I mean, I would roll out and grab whatever clothes around the floor and out the door I went. But then I would have had to be in bed by 8:45.

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

I mean this, this is such a strong argument for moving those school start times later. You know, pretty much universally. Yeah, it's, it's insane. But yeah, the, the point being here that, that a lot of people don't realize that teens need nine hours of sleep a night on average. So they need more sleep than adults do, not less. And it's hard, it is difficult for them to go to bed early because their circadian rhythm does change at adolescence. It's not laziness or, you know, craziness or wanting to party. It's just, again, something in the brain. But when they have that school start time and you can't change that as a parent, then you have to work within the parameters that you've got. And that's going to mean that earlier bedtime.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, and it is early. I mean, it is. If your kid is getting up at 6:30, which I bet is very common, and they maybe are getting up earlier, you're talking about asleep by 9:30, which means, you know, you're heading to bed nine, 9:15 so that you have time to fall asleep. You say you have never compromised on bedtime. Teens whose parents let them stay up until midnight are 24% more likely to suffer from depression, which is a lot. 24% and 20% more likely to have suicidal thoughts than those whose parents had set a bedtime of 10pm p.m. or earlier. Set a bedtime and stick to it as much as possible. You did tell a story, and I was so glad you told it because I was like, oh, I'm sure a lot of people will rel that you had one kid that was sneaking the phone. You know, and I think everybody deals with that here or there, like they want to have in the room, like you said. And it wasn't that they were even listening to it at night. It was like, when I wake up in the morning, I want to listen to a podcast. You know, I'm up, I'm, I'm getting ready, I want to listen to something. But the funniest part of the story to me was that the sibling knew.

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

Oh yeah, yeah, she ratted out her sister. It's gone the other way too. They ratted each other out. Several times. Yeah, it does happen. And I, you know, I tell those. Those stories just, you know, to show that even though you have the rules in place, you know, your kids are going to find ways around them. You got to be prepared for that. And that I think you can't give up at that stage. I think you do have to persevere. One of my favorite aphorisms is, do not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, that's a good one. I just want to read it because I was so entertained, and I think everybody relates. It's like you. And to your point, you set up these different rules and you talk in the book about trying to do them most of the time, you know, if you can get the. Get it right most of the time and you can budge a little bit here and there or for different circumstances, it doesn't have to be set in stone all the time. Like, there might be exceptions or something like that, but for the most part, you want to know what your rules are. So you. You say no advice, no devices in the bedroom. And you also do parental control. So both of those are helping so that kids are getting the sleep that they need. And so, you know, you say, you go down to the spot where the phones are supposed to be, and you say, I glanced at the kitchen counter and saw that Jay's phone was. Was. You know, it was there before she went to bed, but then it's not there. So you're like, is my memory playing tricks on me?

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

I thought I was hallucinating for a little bit there. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

You know, you crack open her door and she says she doesn't know. And then the sister says, immediately it's in her bed, because they always know they're in cahoots with each other. Yeah, but you said. And she's like a really good kid, you know, and she is.

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

Yeah, she is a really good kid. And she's been really good about following the other rules. You know, it's just stuff happens. You know, their kids, especially teenagers, that's kind of. Their job is to push boundaries, and they're going to do that every once in a while, and that's normal. And you just have to put the consequence in place, you know, not lose your stuff, which is sometimes hard to do with teenagers, but say, hey. And so she. She lost. She lost the use of her phone for. I forget. What did I say? Two days, three days? Something like that. Yeah, after that, because. Yeah. And I was so mad. I really was. That one. That one just got me because, you know, the bald face, lying, that's what gets me as a parent. And. And she rarely does that. That's why it was so surprising. That's why I believed her at first, is because she's not usually that way. But every kid has their moment.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, he had it where a kid, and I feel like he was like, maybe 11, and he had gotten to this point where it was like, I'm real tired, Mom. I'm gonna go to bed early. And it happened for, like a couple weeks in a row. And I was like, this is odd, you know? Yeah, right.

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

I smell something. What's going on?

[Podcast Host]

So then it turns out he was taking, you know, an iPad up to his room and watching YouTube, Minecraft, some, you know, something like that, some sort of videos of something. And when you looked at the tech time, I mean, it was astronaut. So it happens in every family. You know, you're gonna.

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

We've all been there. You know, we all make mistakes. We all have kids who do the, the, the workarounds. And. Yeah, I mean, I, I've. I've talked to some parents who've had those things happen enough that they're like, I just gave up. And I'm like, look, I get that, and I know it's hard, but please don't give up.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, don't give up. Don't give up. And you talk about how conversations are not enough. Yes, you have to have rules. Education is not enough. Don't give up on the good the rules can do, even if you can't follow them perfectly all the time. Can you? As we wrap it up, can you just talk to us about why conversations about tech dangers and conversation about technology cannot take the place of having rules?

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

So, yes, you should absolutely have those conversations with your kid about the bad stuff you can run into online. And I have a whole list of things you should talk over with your kids, starting around middle school, maybe even late Element elementary School. But there's this false dichotomy out there of, oh, we, we, you know, we don't. We don't need rules. You know, we don't need regulations. We don't need any of this. Let's. Let's talk to kids. Let's teach them digital literacy or digital citizenship and tell them all the dangers and tell them what an algorithm is. Okay, you're going to do that and then expect them to make good choices. When social media companies have poured billions of dollars into making their products as engaging, or some would say, addiction addictive as possible, you're going to put them up against all the peer pressure. You know, you're going to expect them to put that phone down and cheerfully go to bed at 9pm or 9:30pm really, you know, it's just, it's just not, it's not going to happen. And they left to their own devices, that's what they're going to do. Spend seven hours on the iPad when they snuck into their room and it's. Yep. And sometimes that's going to happen. But if you can have those rules in place and delay giving them devices as long as possible, you're still going to do a lot of good and a lot more good than just talking to them and expecting everything is going to be fine. Which pretty much every parent of a teen today will tell you is not going to happen.

[Podcast Host]

It's such a wonderful message. You are going to do a lot of good if you have those. And the good that you do is going to ripple out and benefit other families because you're going to raise kids that are not as bored or as boring and they're going to be fun to play with and it's really going to help your whole community where you live. So this is a necessary book. I think it's coming out at the perfect time. It's like right after Labor Day, heading into a new school year. It is called 10 Rules for Raising Kids in a High Tech World by Dr. Jean Twenge. Also wrote a phenomenal book called Generations which we've talked about before on this podcast. I'll make sure I'll link and also Igen, which is just an eye opening, jaw dropping book. And, and you talk about, you know, how many hours, if they spend this many hours that's leading toward depression and different mental health outcomes. And so it gives you a lot of hope that there is a lot that you can do to stem the tide, to maybe start to reverse some things and to really think long term. We don't have the data, but you can start to think what would it be like to parent without the help of knowing that nature is available or that these, these really good books that could help you or you know, that you're, you know, you're just not addicted to any of these different technologies. So it is written by a mom. Obviously you have a bazillion credentials. Professor of psychology at San Diego State University. Author of more than 190 scientific publications, written so many books, research covered in Time, the Atlantic, Newsweek, New York Times, USA Today, the Washington Post, featured on Today, Good Morning America, Fox and Friends, CBS THIS morning, Real Time with Bill Maher, npr, but also a mom of three teens. And so you're the one to write the book.

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

Yeah. It's the, it's the collision between those two things, the research and the experience of being the mom of three teenagers.

[Podcast Host]

Yes. Yep. It's very needed. Thank you so much for being here and for this wonderful book.

[Dr. Jean Twenge]

Thank you. Thanks for having me.