← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 586: Play-Based Childhoods Are Being Stolen | Nicole Runyon, Free to Fly
00:58:12
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- [00:00]
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- [00:30]
Ginny Urich
Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Ginny Urich. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside, and I am so excited. I have read a book that I think every single parent and educator in the country should read. It is called Free to Fly. It is remarkably good. I have so many notes. The secret to fostering independence in the next generation. The author, licensed master social worker Nicole Runyon, is here. Welcome, Nicole.
- [00:54]
Nicole Runyon
Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.
- [00:56]
Ginny Urich
I am so excited that you're here. This book is. Wow. I highlighted almost the entire thing. I'd love to start here. You're working with kids, and because you're working with kids and you're often working with families, because kids exist inside of a family and you have this statement in this book called Free to Fly, where you say, it's not the kids, it's the parent. I estimated 70% of my child psychotherapy practice were kids whose parents needed coaching, and the remaining 30% were kids who needed therapy. Can you expand on that? Tell us what's going on?
- [01:26]
Nicole Runyon
Yes. So I was getting an influx of child clients starting around 2014, 2015. When I first went into private practice, I was a generalist. I saw everybody. And because I saw kids, I got all the kid referrals in my area. And over the course of the next five years, the influx was growing. And it was to the point where my. I had a wait list. I was turning desperate families away. The other therapists in my area were also full. And I really started to think about what's happening. Why are all these kids struggling so much? And I dug deeper than just on the surface, because on the surface, it wasn't making sense. The families that I was getting were intact families, loving, supportive parents, caring parents that wanted their kids to be okay and were willing to make necessary changes. But yet the mental health symptoms that I was seeing were very severe, and they weren't rooted in any kind of trauma or anything. I could Connect to. And so I started to look into what screens were doing to the kids. And I at that, at the time, 2014, 15, nobody was really talking about it. In fact, everybody was thinking that it was the next best thing and it was going to make the kids very smart and let's use it for education. And I had seen a direct correlation from when the schools sort of gave up, put their hands up and said, okay kids, you can have your devices during the day. Immediately started seeing more mental health severity in my practice. And so I thought the parents really need the help. We are revolutionaries. We're the first generation of parents parenting under these circumstances. And we need a lot of guidance and help because there's no precedent. And I thought if I address the issues with the parents, and it wasn't just the tech, it was also permissive parenting. Parents that want their kids to be happy and comfortable all the time, not allowing for discomfort. And if I address those issues, then I recognize that the kids would get better faster and they would move through therapy quicker or they wouldn't even need therapy at all. And since I've made the change, I actually see that the kids don't need therapy at all.
- [03:41]
Ginny Urich
Wow. And you also address the food. So it's these kind of big pillars. But also some of the solutions can be pretty simple. I know they're hard to do in today's day and age. But you're talking about the screens and you're talking about letting your kids go through discomfort, helping them grow. Here's what you say. So the ramifications of this situation where all of a sudden the wait list is so long and you're turning away desperate families. Some of the ramifications are that the kids who actually need therapy, the 30% of kids who actually need it can't get it because the others are taking up spaces in the office. And then you say, and I think this is really important, you say the 70% who don't really need it also don't get better because that's not the problem. It's these sort of pillars of foundational things that we're doing wrong that are the problem. Then you say though, in they can even get worse. So you're talking about parents who are seeking therapy when it isn't needed and a lot of these kids are not getting better. And in most cases they get worse. Tell us why.
- [04:38]
Nicole Runyon
Because they're being pathologized and labeled. So they over attach to that. They either given a diagnosis, anxiety, depression, and then it becomes an excuse. It's I have anxiety, so I can't do my homework. I have depression, so I can't get out of bed and be productive. And the adults are accommodating that. The schools are accommodating it. The parents are overcompensating for it. So that over attachment leads to them feeling like they have no internal locus of control. They don't know how to get through something hard, to be uncomfortable, to work through boredom, to work through patience. So they default into that pathology that's been given to them, and they tend to ruminate. So they'll talk about their feelings and talk about their feelings and talk about their feelings. And there is a container for that. But then it has to be, okay, what's next? What is your part in that? What can you do to move forward? And that's where we're. We're missing the point. And so these kids are staying in therapy for far longer than they should. Years and years.
- [05:46]
Ginny Urich
Oh, that's interesting. I've got so many notes here, so I'm hoping I can find it. But one of the things you talked about that triggered my memory is you said because of just simple changes in insurance, that the way that we treat kids has changed. And it partially has to do with that. You know, it used to be like, let's help this kid move through it, and off they go. And now, like you said, then they're coming back, coming back. I'll probably find it later in my notes. But you write, you have more power than you think. Your kids don't have to struggle with their mental health. The answer lies within the family unit. So can you talk a little bit more about how you don't diagnose anymore? You say, we must stop the letters. The symptoms are telling a story. I focus on the story.
- [06:25]
Nicole Runyon
Yes. So with insurance coverage, and of course it makes sense, you have to have a diagnosis to build the insurance, because the insurance has to have a medically necessary reason to pay for the treatment. Right. So if you get a kid that comes in because maybe their grandparent died and they're having a hard time, you know, getting through the day or they're grieving a lot, okay, I wouldn't necessarily pathologize that. That's a normal reaction to. To something bad that happened. But if the parent wants to use their insurance to pay for the treatment, then I would have to give that child a diagnosis. And I think it's 1000% wrong to give a diagnosis for a normal reaction to an environmental issue. So take, for example, the add ADHD diagnoses, they're way over diagnosed. Because what's happening is our education system is not conducive to kids development. It's like fitting a round peg in a square hole. And then we're saying, oh well, because you don't fit into this, then there's something wrong with you and we're pathologizing it. And then again, insurance is covering any kind of treatment for it, which the treatment isn't working because the underlying root cause issue isn't getting addressed.
- [07:44]
Ginny Urich
I mean, I would imagine you're like the tip of the spear there in calling those things out. You say, aren't we taking the easy way out when we slap a diagnosis on them, send them to therapy and put them on medications without more digging and figuring out the underlying causes for their ailments? Our children deserve so much more. There are those in my field who would have you believe a diagnosis is permanent. And so, you know, you're talking about how then these kids, they start to see themselves as powerless to their diagnosis and they're being like you used the word before, pathologized, labeled, psychologically tested and given a cocktail of psychotropic pharmaceuticals. So you talk about then a different way. And what's interesting to me, Nicole, is because these foundational pillars, which are basically movement, nature, good food, letting kids grow and become more independent, those used to be part of the framework of childhood, just because that's how society was set up. So kids had to walk to school because their mom didn't have a car. I mean that's just how it was. Like my mom would say when she grew up in her neighborhood, every single family had one car. There was not one two car household. So the dad would take the car to work and everyone had to walk to school. And then, you know, the homes had eight kids. So they're not walking you if you're six because they're nursing the baby. So it was kind of like these built in structures. Well, now society has changed dramatically. And so I think one of the big issues is that parents don't know what their kids need. I mean, that's kind of the whole point, right? You're like, I'm having to help parent, parent, you do this coaching for the parents. So the book is called Free to Fly. And you say this, this is, I think where we're off. It is a parent's job to know what their kids need developmentally and despite the difficulty to provide it for them, I think that 20 years ago parents didn't have to know it because it just happened, because kids just walked to school, because they played in the neighborhood, because they moved, because there wasn't as many GMOs, you know, because the food supply wasn't so ultra processed. But things have changed. That's the whole point. Things have changed. And so now parents have to know. It is a parent's job to know what their kids need developmentally. So you go through a lot of different ages, stages, but I would love to focus on movement. You talk a lot about nature, you talk about movement. So how do we help children develop holistically? Can you talk about starting right from the beginning in infancy? Restricted movement causes several problems for children. More and more children are behind on all physical milestones and speech milestones. So starting from those early ages, birth to three, can you talk about, like the containers that we put kids in, like, you know, they're not being allowed to move freely. So that's changed. Right? And then also, I have never heard of this. Nicole, Sorry. There's so much to talk about. My mind is going everywhere. I've never heard about this thing of retaining their reflexes. I think every parent needs to know about this. Their reflexes don't integrate or fade into the nervous system. And there are mental health consequences of retaining reflexes. So starting for the little ages now, where there's all these things that you can put your kid in, you can strap them in. Can you talk about how that's not good for kids and then how it leads into this retaining of reflexes?
- [10:44]
Nicole Runyon
Yes. So the technology companies are selling us a lie. They are telling us that from very early ages, technology is the answer for their kids development, for their children's brains to be smart, to learn how to read, to do all the things, including in infancy, when they have a smart, there's a smart bassinet that actually will soothe your baby, put it back to sleep and you don't have to do anything, but the baby is strapped into this bassinet. And so from birth, babies need to move. And I think we don't think about that because they're not crawling yet, they're not walking, they're not even lifting themselves up on tummy time yet. But they have primitive reflexes like the startle reflex. So that's why, you know, they're swaddled, because that helps them feel safe and calm. And if they're not, not, they develop this startle reflux or the rooting reflux where you touch the side of their mouth. And then they start looking for food. These are Survival mechanisms that we need to allow for. We can't be strapping babies in. We can't be putting them in front of a screen because we're preventing from those reflexes from developing. Now, generally, all of the primitive reflexes should be done by a year. I think there's one that is not done until three. And when I say done, I mean that those reflexes then absorb into the nervous system because the baby doesn't need that anymore to survive. Because they can start moving, they're crawling, they're walking, they're talking, they can start communicating a little bit more. So what's happening to our kids and our babies today early on, is that they're not integrating those reflexes. They're doing what's called retaining the reflexes because they're not moving out of that developmentally. There's a chart in the book that lists the different reflexes. And what are the. Yeah, and what are the consequences of that? And so we see, like, impulse control, even bedwetting, attention and focus. There's all kinds of things that we can think that we're going to treat in a mental health setting, but that talk therapy or play therapy or art therapy doesn't even touch because it's more of a physical, physiological issue.
- [13:08]
Ginny Urich
Wow. Everybody needs to know this. Lack of movement starts in infancy. Movement is being restricted with today's children at each stage of development because of technology, manipulative marketing, and poor parenting advice. There are numerous ways parents are being seduced into buying contraptions, claiming safety, good sleep, healthy development for their babies and toddlers. There are smart bassinets, smart chairs, walkers, jumpers, and swings. The options are almost endless. And here's what you said, and I think this is key. You said, I resigned myself to knowing I was not going to get anything done until my child was able to be mobile without my supervision.
- [13:41]
Nicole Runyon
And that was hard.
- [13:42]
Ginny Urich
That's how it's supposed to be. I know it is hard, but that is what the situation is. And it lasts for a few years, and then it does change. But for those years, you say movement can be inconvenient for parents. It requires you to put your devices down, look up, and engage. But the best safety for your toddler is you.
- [14:01]
Nicole Runyon
Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And you know, and taking them outside. Right. Because little ones should be running, jumping, climbing, skipping, falling down, skinning their knees, you know, managing their feelings about it, going into mom and dad's arms and giving them hugs about it. These are all things that are necessary. And again, work for Parents and inconvenient, but well worth it because then we don't have these, these consequences later on.
- [14:29]
Ginny Urich
Yeah, I mean the chart is so significant. You know, you talk about, and I would imagine that most parents like I've heard of the moral reflex, but I have not heard of the Palmer grasp reflex. I have not heard of asymmetric tox tonic neck reflex, spinal gallant galant reflex. I've not heard of any of these other ones. And the consequences are that like the long term ramifications in if it's not integrated. Is that how we say it? Because it has to integrate right into the nervous system if it's not integrated. Some of these long term ramifications are like poor handwriting, decreased hand eye coordination, uncoordinated gait, poor balance, deficits with pencil grip, pain and tension in the legs, decreased balance, poor spatial awareness, toe walking, poor ability to climb, poor posture. There is thing after thing, a sloppy, messy eater you wouldn't even expect. So that that's the point is like you have to know this stuff now. You have to know because you have to know how the screens are taking away time, where the kids should be doing all these other things that are integrating their reflexes. And it matters. Restricting movement at any age leads to a decline in physical, mental and cognitive development causing several issues for children and families. You talked about this woman who says the kids are broken. Donna Dotson from Children's Hospital of Michigan. Oh, we're from Michigan.
- [15:43]
Nicole Runyon
Yes.
- [15:44]
Ginny Urich
You're from Michigan.
- [15:45]
Nicole Runyon
Okay, I'm from Michigan too.
- [15:47]
Ginny Urich
Yeah, I love that. So she says broken children. The common theme is excessive screen time. Broken children now make up roughly half of my caseload. And these are children with gross motor, fine motor speech delays, attention and focus issues, behavior problems, vision problems, and toe walking with no medical cause. So you have to know, you have to know about these things. You got to look at the chart, talk about the mother. Okay, so you say many parents are being fed garbage advice about the cry it out method during birth to 18 months. You say a mother's body and voice are the only things that mimic the womb, not a machine. This is what makes the nervous system feel safe and is necessary, a necessary part of sensory development. The smart sleeper bassinet is not a replacement for a loving adult. Can you touch on that?
- [16:32]
Nicole Runyon
Yes. So this whole idea of we need the babies to self soothe, we don't want to spoil them too much. That's the garbage that I'm talking about. I am all about older kids self soothing, working through hard things, dealing with Discomfort. And when I say older kids, I'm saying three and up. But before then they're in the attachment phase of development, which means that their needs are to be met by their parents almost immediately. Now I don't mean if your toddler is screaming because you're cooking dinner and they want it now, that you have to somehow speed up time and make it now. That's not what I mean. I mean if they are tired, if they're not feeling good, if you know they're trying to communicate to you through their cries, then you have to answer those cries because if you don't, they will be in distress and that triggers the fight or flight of the nervous system and it wires them to have that feeling of not being safe inside and that, you know, we wonder why we have so much anxiety. It's because we have this philosophy so early on and it's wild to me that we think the baby should self soothe. But we are falling all over ourselves with the older kids to give them everything they want, to make them happy, to give them the technology because everybody else has it and I'll be, you know, socially isolated if I don't. So we're overindulging the older kids and we're not giving the babies and the little ones what they need because somehow we think that it's going to make them stronger.
- [18:09]
Ginny Urich
So important to know. And there is a lot of confusion about that.
- [18:12]
Nicole Runyon
There is.
- [18:12]
Ginny Urich
You know you're going to spoil your baby. You say in the attachment phase of development. You can never spoil a baby with too much love and nurturing. Spoiling occurs when parents take over childhood tasks, hindering children from achieving their developmental milestones appropriately. So many parents are being fed garbage advice into the sleep concierge and this is redirecting them from their instincts. And you wrote I have no regrets as I answer my baby's cries all through the night. If you leave a baby to cry it out and self soothe in quotes, then you are denying the process of healthy attachment. So you say the smart sleeper bassinet is only the beginning of a childhood on technology and the self soothing myth.
- [18:53]
Ginny Urich (Ad Reads)
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- [21:11]
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- [22:40]
Ginny Urich
Then you talk about crawling. So crawling is so important. It's so important. You said the CDC took it off the list of milestones.
- [22:49]
Nicole Runyon
Yeah. Well, what happened is, so the lockdowns came, and parents were trying to survive. They were working from home. Their babies were right there next to them, their little ones. And what did they do? They put them on tablets because they needed to get work done. And so what that did was prevent those babies from moving, from developing. Crossing the midline with crawling. And so instead of addressing that, like from, you know, a public health standpoint, they just decided, oh, well, we can tell parents that babies don't need to crawl anymore.
- [23:25]
Ginny Urich
You say the ramifications are so extensive. I mean, I only know a slight bit about crossing the midline. But, like, I know some. You got these two hemispheres of the brain that need to be able to work together.
- [23:35]
Nicole Runyon
Work together. Yes.
- [23:36]
Ginny Urich
Yeah, it's the movement. You know, like, these kids have to be moving. They have to move. You wrote this free movement. Free movement is the best way for a baby to develop. This is why when you take your kids outside on a regular basis, you don't even necessarily have to know all the nitty gritty. It just happens naturally because there's a lot of space for them to move and for their bodies to learn and to grow naturally. And you don't have to be the one that directs it. So then you talk about, okay, talking about the bass, the sleeper bassinet, the smart Sleeper Bassinet is only the beginning of a childhood on technology. And, and you talk a lot here about screens. This goes in. I don't know if they totally relate because then you're talking about with these older kids, like now they're three plus and now they got to kind of work through a little bit of their stuff on their own. They're going to start to grow up. Like when they're 16, they should be driving. Like you got to get these kids going and doing things. But you say a lot of kids, and it could be starting in infancy due to the technology and all this, have this constant need to feel good. Young people are avoiding their pain by numbing themselves. Their drug addiction begins long before they are exposed to drugs. It begins in preschool for the kid is given an iPad to learn the ABCs they are being trained to check out. It is not a huge jump to go from being addicted to the dopamine provided from technology to drugs and alcohol. Screens wire the brain for addiction. What is it going to take? Step up. Parents stop giving children addictive devices which while their brains are still developing. Can you talk about like no one thinks that. No one thinks when they're like, we're going to do 1, 2, 3. I don't even want to say. I don't even know if you're allowed to say that. You know, you always get these ads, right? Like the mouse, you know, we're going to do this and they're going to learn. And the ABCs and the 1, 2, 3. No one's like this is wiring my kid's brain for addiction. But what do parents need to know?
- [25:23]
Nicole Runyon
Well, it's just the stimulation alone. So the blue light, the noises, you know, the big bursts of, of wow or good job when you get the answer correct is exciting. And it's also very enticing, right? It's colorful, it's very fast moving and it's very stimulating. So while we think it's educational, their brains are working too fast and there's not enough. So that puts them in fight or flight. And there's not enough of a rest and digest function turned on in the nervous system because there's no boredom, there's no quiet, there's no room for imagination or opening up the brain for other connections to be made. Research study after research study shows that children under five learn through play. Play based learning is, is the way to go. And what's happened is big tech has come in and they've sold parents and educators a giant lie that somehow this is going to be better for their children than just the day to day everyday childhood tasks like play and being outside and climbing and running and all of the things that we talk about.
- [26:44]
Ginny Urich
It's such a big deal.
- [26:46]
Nicole Runyon
Yeah.
- [26:46]
Ginny Urich
Their drug addiction begins long before they are exposed to drugs. It begins in preschool.
- [26:51]
Nicole Runyon
Yep.
- [26:51]
Ginny Urich
For the kid who's given an iPad to learn their ABCs they're being trained to check out.
- [26:56]
Nicole Runyon
I want to add that what happens then at that age is they don't have to, like you said, they don't have to wait for anything. And so there's no tolerance for not just boredom, there's no tolerance for uncomfortable feelings. Three is a big age where they've got big feelings and they have things to work through and they need things to contend with. I'm a big, big proponent of teaching them how to tie their shoes and letting them work through that at 3 and 4 because fine motor wise, the bones in their hands don't fully fuse together till they're six. So that's going to be a really frustrating task for them. But they need that frustration and they need to get to the other side of it. If we're putting iPads in front of them, then we're preventing them from getting those skills to tolerate pain or just discomfort. And so again with the wiring for addiction. Then take a kid later on in middle school or high school where life gets demanding, social issues start coming up, things are uncomfortable. Their go to, they were trained for their go to to be dopamine. So why wouldn't they choose dopamine then?
- [28:02]
Ginny Urich
Wow. It is so wild to think about the long term ramifications of those small choices day after day after day when the kids are so young. You write avoiding negative feelings is causing major mental health issues. You know, our kids are not all right. We have real problems and we need strong adults to help our children with those problems. We are experiencing a mental health epidemic with our children. So talking then about first of all not giving the screens when they're, when they're little, hardly giving the screens at all, but not giving the screens because they need to be able to work through their negative feelings. Then they also have to have opportunities where they are a little bit frustrated because they can't figure out how to tie their shoes. And you say parents are afraid to allow their children independence and freedom. What we avoid amplifies. And you talk about how for you personally letting go is a really hard part of parenting. But what's happening is there are teenagers and college students who are not able to solve their own problems. And this is starting to be like the majority, the majority of these kids. So let's just hit this one particular thing. Let them drive when they are 16.
- [29:05]
Nicole Runyon
Yes. So this is such a big issue because the parents are scared. They think it's, they think, you know, they're not ready, it's not safe, they're gonna get hurt. Well, yeah, like all of those things are true. Driving is dangerous, you can't deny that. But there are three critical periods of development where kids get a burst of independence, they separate from their parents, and they're more ready to go out in the world. And, and those periods are at 2, at 9 and at 16. So letting a 16 year old drive is more important than anybody realizes because that's the last time they're saying, I'm ready to go. And if you prevent them from being ready to go, then they internalize that. They don't trust themselves, they can't do it, they're not capable and they're not ready for life. So that's why we're seeing so many young adults struggle with their day to day. I had a young adult client years ago that couldn't get through the day, the college day, without calling her mom multiple times for help with what to do, how to organize her schedule, what to make for dinner. It's because we're not allowing them those opportunities to be independent when they need to be. Now is that hard on the parent? Yes. Yes, that's so hard on us. But if we don't do it, then what we're risking is worse than our own discomfort, to be honest.
- [30:32]
Ginny Urich
You know, there's something to be said about like, I wish my college kid called me every single day. Yeah, sure, I want that. You know, it's, it's not good for anyone in the short term or the long term, but I, I can see how. And then we've got a child that's, you know, going to be graduating and you're like, that is a sacrifice is probably a stupid word, but it's like you have to let them go. It is like, even if you're like, oh, I want them, I wish they would ask me what should I make for it. Call me every day, you know, ask me, ask me questions every hour. I will be here for you. There is an inclination to like, not want them to grow up. And so you, you have to be the adult and you have to turn that off and work through that. And you say this is really a big deal. So the parents are experiencing anxiety you say if parents don't trust their teenagers to drive, they are sending the teenager a message that they aren't capable. The lack of trust from the parent fractures self trust, a necessary trait for growing teenagers. And then you say this. It is a culmination. See, these are all these small decisions, right? Day after day, week after week, month after month, year over year. It is a culmination of years of enabling your children to not develop, to not complete the tasks of development. That's how you end this. In this spot where they're 16 and you don't want them to drive and you're afraid. You write, it's dangerous out in the world, but it's more dangerous for your older children to stay with you, safe and protected at home. Not going out into the world and experiencing life will prevent them from fully launching and those consequences are greater. What about tracking them?
- [31:58]
Nicole Runyon
Yes, tracking them falls in that same category. That just because we can doesn't mean we should. If we're tracking them, then we're again sending them the message that I can't. I don't trust you. You shouldn't trust yourself because it's not safe out there. And instead of empowering them to acknowledge that there are a list of things that aren't safe, like speeding, like reckless driving, like being distracted while you're driving, and teaching them how to avoid all of that so that they're as safe as possible. And we all had to do that, right? Those of us who got our licenses without. Without any kind of conversation. There was no conversation. We were just going to get our license. We had to do all of that. We had to figure it out. And parents do have to make, you know, use that word, sacrifice. I think it is a sacrifice and it's a strong word, but the sacrifice is our own discomfort and our own pain of thinking that something bad might happen. But we want to be that container for them that, hey, I've prepared you and now I trust you, so that they can feel prepared and trust themselves. Themselves.
- [33:10]
Ginny Urich
So good. Everybody should read the book. It is called Free to fly. Teenagers 16 and over should not be tracked. They should be trusted. So many parents, even after allowing their teenagers to drive, can't fully let go. You're sacrificing, like, the mom role that you always knew as well. Like, you're just, you know, you have to sacrifice who you are in relation to them and how they view you. And you're not the one that's doing everything all the time. And you have to be able to fully Let go. And if you do it and it's hard enough, I mean, I'm like, we have had a lot of freedom in our home situation here and it's still hard. It's even harder if you don't have that little by little as, as they're growing up. And you talk about how you're astonished how many parents are involved in their adult children's lives to an extent that does not allow for independence. Separation is important because parents grow old and eventually die.
- [34:00]
Nicole Runyon
Yeah, so while you're talking about this, I'm thinking of my son who is going to be 17 soon. So he's been driving for almost a year. You know, one of the things that I have explained to him is that we're not going to track you because of a main reason that you need to be accountable to people who you're in relationship with. So if you say you're going to be home at a certain time and you're not home at that time, then you need to call and, and say why? Hey, I'm running late. Hey, I made a stop home on my way home from school. I made a stop here on my way home from school. Because we are the example for their later on relationships and they're losing that skill by us tracking them because they don't have to then be accountable to us. They don't have to say where they are. They don't have to, you know, acknowledge or I'll ask my son, hey, you know, when you get to this destination, just check in with me, make sure you, I want to make sure you got there okay. Because again, when we love someone, we respect that they worry about us when we're not there. And we need to be able to like understand that that respect is important and we need to give them that, that container so that they can do that in their future relationships.
- [35:17]
Ginny Urich
Wow, Nicole. And these are the things that you just wouldn't like when you say in the book, and it's towards the beginning, like parents, you need to understand your kids development. There are just a lot more things going on today than when life was a little bit simpler. And so you have to think through what are some of these ramifications. Because you talk about like with dating, that relates to dating, right. Call and say why. And you're saying, you know, a lot of kids are afraid to date number one. And number two, they're breaking up through text. And you're like, I mean that would have been unheard of even like, you know, a couple generations ago or even decades Ago you couldn't even do it over the phone. You were supposed to do it in person. Now it's gone to the phone. Now it's gone to text. And so all of these things are interrelated for the kids and they're struggling, you say they're struggling to find meaning in their lives.
- [36:04]
Ginny Urich (Ad Reads)
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- [38:27]
Ginny Urich
Because not everyone.
- [38:28]
Ginny Urich (Ad Reads)
Is the one, but your therapist should be.
- [38:32]
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- [38:58]
Ginny Urich
I really thought it was interesting, Nicole, how when you're going through the ages and stages of childhood, it's like you've got, you know, birth to three and then you've got five to 12 and then you've got 12 plus, then you have 18 to 25. Very few books include 18 to 25. And yet that age of range of young adults is really struggling.
- [39:19]
Nicole Runyon
Yeah, they're struggling and it's because they didn't get the foundation developmentally. So I talk about how development works. Like the rungs of a ladder, each stage builds on the one before it. And if there are fractured rungs or there's completely a missing rung, then it's almost impossible to get. If there's too many of those missing rungs, it's impossible to get to where they need to be even if they're the correct age. And one of the things that young adults go through because they the brain isn't fully developed until 25 is a sort of disillusionment about the world prior to that. There's a little bit still of magical thinking, of fantasy, of idealism. And then when they get out in the world, they're not quite prepared for the fact that it's not what they thought it was going to be. And then they lose that sense of creativity and wonder and excitement. And that's where they that purposelessness comes in and, and they don't feel like there's meaning and they can't because they can't have these connections. They haven't learned how to properly socialize and be intimate and to be close and connected with people because they're so isolated and disconnected from their devices and social media that then it becomes this. Is this all there is? And they lose their sense of wonder. Enjoy.
- [40:39]
Ginny Urich
Their future is bleak. They have a lot of despair. Wow. It's not what they thought. And then they're also not prepared for it. You say many of them lack the ability to form social connections. They are angry and rightfully so. Their childhood was stolen from them. Like I said, it's an imperative book to read. Free to fly. You talk a lot about nature and play. So can you talk about how the play based childhoods. So this is something that no one would have talked about when kids just ran out the door to play because all the neighborhood kids were out, out playing in the yards like no one's being like hey, this is going to help your kid with whatever play based childhoods are being stolen from today's I generation. The lack of play early on is not allowing children to develop naturally and have a sense of independence, which causes anxiety. Can you talk about the relationship between lack of play and heightened anxiety?
- [41:30]
Nicole Runyon
Yeah. So play encourages independence, especially unstructured, unsupervised play. So if you think about the neighborhood, how it used to be, there were kids of multi ages, so the older kids would maybe teach the younger kids things or they would look after them and the younger kids would look up to the older kids. And there was a lot of learning that happened. There was conflict resolution, there was working through your feelings and if somebody said something or did something that you didn't like and there was learning how to confront that age appropriately. Right. And a lot of that happened naturally because the kids would go home and tell their parents and their parents would say figure it out or good job figuring it out. It wasn't really a time where people, parents felt like they needed to solve their kids problems. So that learning of how to be independent, dependent is really the bridge between how kids can learn to trust themselves and be less anxious. Because it's like if you can tolerate discomfort, if you can confront conflict, if you can use your critical thinking skills, develop impulse control, then you can trust yourself to manage uncertain situations. And the anxiety we're seeing is all about uncertainty what might happen. I don't know what to do if A, B and C happens. And of course you don't know what to do. None of us really know what to do with uncertain situations. But the general idea is that we want them to internalize, that they can trust themselves to manage it. And if they don't get those skills early on, they're going to have a really hard time doing that. Yeah.
- [43:13]
Ginny Urich
The play matters so, so much. You wrote this. Many parents think preschool is when children should be learning their ABCs and 1, 2, threes. While they are capable of learning academics at this age, the richness of what they learn through unstructured, unsupervised play with their peers is far more valuable. So then let's talk about school. Because recess has just been decreasing and decreasing. There is this wonderful non profit, it's called say yes to Recess. And I had them on our show and they said that the average recess time across the United States is 22 minutes for the entire day. They're like, that wouldn't even fly in the business world where you have to get a certain amount of time. Like you know, in a seven hour day you have to get X amount of minutes. They're like, it's not even. And these are our little kids. It's not even enough. So can you talk about, you say many schools have decreased recess time and children are receiving less outdoor play throughout the day. They enter the school and are placed inside a building for most of the day. Cut off from nature and separated from their natural biorhythms. They are also likely exposed to food lacking in nutrients and to screens. Can you talk about what do we do about that?
- [44:23]
Nicole Runyon
Well, I think that the educators really need this information just as much as parents do. Right. So, so you've said a few times like this, this information for parents is so imperative because we used to just let kids develop naturally and we didn't have to know this stuff. Well, it's the same with educators. They have to know what kids need and when they need it. So age appropriately, it's more appropriate to start receding the recess time as they get older. Now, should it still be 20 minutes even when they're older? No, absolutely not. But if they want to start, you know, being more interested in, in teaching them academics, I, I don't suggest doing that until high school. I think that they need to understand all of these developmental phases just as much as parents do. And I think what's happening is Big tech is selling them the same lie that they've sold parents, that this technology is going to make the kids smarter. Now they're talking about AI we have to teach them how to use it young. And that's just a narrative that is making them richer and manipulating educators. Because what that's doing is preventing from not just movement but critical thinking and impulse control and all of the things we want them to be developing naturally.
- [45:43]
Ginny Urich
In their brains and then go further with it. Because you talk about boys in this setting and there's this man I really respect and I really like his books. His name is Dr. Peter Gray and he talks about kids are biologically designed to self educate about how the multi age free play is so unbelievably important for their development. And he says that when he went to school, elementary school, which I don't quite know when that would have been, but you know, it was decades ago that recess was a one third of the school day. So the school day was six hours and recess was two hours of that three hour recess and lunch or whatever, it was one third. And they were allowed to leave. They would just go roam. You go up to the hill, you're going to go sledding. I mean they were just allowed to go and be kids like you know, elementary school kids, one third. So now we're at this spot where 22 minutes, now the day has lengthened. The school day is longer and the recess time is so much shorter in average of 22 minutes across the United States. And that say yes to recess organization is fantastic. People can get involved and try and change that on a legislative level. But you say boys are not, they're not set up for that. You say why are we putting boys in environments they don't thrive in? And then pathologizing them with a diagnosis. So many boys think something is wrong with them because they can't sit like girls in school, pay attention and please their teachers. They become labeled when they are young. Boys have a proclivity for being active and physical. What should we be doing for the boys?
- [47:12]
Nicole Runyon
Yeah. So I love that you brought up Peter Gray. I love him too. I think a big part of why we're not doing recess like that anymore is because of this obsession we have with safety. Somehow we think that if we keep the kids inside, then they're safe. And boys in particular need movement. They need activity, they need competition, so games and sports and unsupervised so that they can develop and get what they need from that naturally without adults intervening and saying this is how you do it. Because what that does for them is it makes them feel strong and capable. It makes them feel like they can solve their own problems. And boys and men are fixers. That's how their brains work. They compartmentalize things into, okay, well, this is the problem. This is the solution. And by not allowing that, we are like, like, completely collapsing their natural abilities. So then, just like I say in the book, why are we pathologizing that? So their symptoms, like those ADD symptoms where they're wiggly or they have too much inside and they're not getting stimulated externally enough, so they act out. And. And then we're addressing that with behavior charts, trying to keep them under control. And the answer to that is to just send them outside and let them run. And so we're really preventing all of that natural development for them. I think girls are more successful with that. Not that it's good for them either, but they're more successful with it. And so they don't internalize so much of what boys are internalizing, which I think is a lot of shame. Like, they're. They can't do it. They're not good enough. And then that's leading to lots of depression and feelings of unmotivation. And our boys are really suffering. And so what's happening is they're turning to video games because, again, we think it's safe for them to be inside. And they need that constant stimulation. They need that competition. And so they're getting it through video games rather than from a pickup game outside.
- [49:35]
Ginny Urich
It's a big deal. Boys internalize negative feelings about being boys. They are experiencing failure to launch. They lack purpose and meaning. They are increasingly lonely, lethargic, depressed, anxious, and abusing substances. Most boys are hyperactive and inattentive. If a boy is not this, he is the exception and not the rule. School does not allow for the level of play and physical activity boys need. They are expected to sit still, pay attention, and keep themselves under control. So we're talking about school. Another thing that you bring up is school avoidance. It's on the rise, and that school is hard, but being home on a smartphone is not. Talk about that.
- [50:15]
Nicole Runyon
Yeah. So our kids are, because we're training them on devices and in our parenting to be comfortable all the time. They don't want to go to school because they. School is uncomfortable, sitting, listening, being asked to focus, having demands placed on them is hard. And they don't know how to manage that because they're not developing those skills to manage it. And so what's happening is because we label everything. We're calling it anxiety, we're accommodating it, it's okay to not go to school. Because of your anxiety, rather than getting curious, asking them, like, what's missing? What do you need? What do you. What do we need to do differently for you at school? Or do you need a different setting entirely? Or is it just that they don't like a certain teacher or a certain class is hard for them? And then once we understand the problem, then we can start to find solutions. And so if it's something as simple as, hey, you have a difficult teacher this year, then I say that's an opportunity to help them work through something hard because they're going to have to learn how to deal with difficult people in their life. Now, if, if you get to the bottom of the issue and it becomes this thing of it's, it's the setting, it's not right, it's too much indoors, it's too much on a screen, then you have to start having conversations about what's the alternative. But if we just allow them to stay home and be on a device and be comfortable and happy, then we can never get to the other side of that. And I had a client years ago, a young middle school client who was school avoidant. Her parents were divorced and she was only school avoidant when she was staying with her mom, not with her dad. So what I came to realize is that mom was allowing her her phone all day. So what was to make her go to school if she could just be on her phone? And so the simple solution to this problem that we thought was very big was to take the phone away. And what do you know, she started to go to school because, you know, I did all the things with her. I asked her, what's, what's going on at school? Is there an issue? Is there something we can resolve? And it really wasn't anything. It was just that she had preferred to be home with her phone.
- [52:30]
Ginny Urich
Wow. Yeah, wow. And in terms of the phones, you talk also about how, like, these parents are wanting the kids to have their phones at school so they can get a hold of them all the time. And you say, you don't need to stay in touch with your children all day. They need to navigate the world without you. It is good for them, you must allow it. And that there's a lot of issues there. The kids are coming to school with nude photos on their devices. They're looking at pornography in the middle schools. At school, there's been threats made on social media. There is a heavy stuff for kids to manage without trusted adult help, and.
- [52:59]
Ginny Urich (Ad Reads)
Schools are not equipped for that.
- [53:01]
Ginny Urich
Schools are not mental health Institutions, they're educational institutions. They do not and will never offer enough mental health care to. To service the level of need. So the parents have to step in. So you talk about that in terms of the phones. There's so much here, Nicole. It's such a good book. Okay. It's called Free to Fly. I'm turning because I'm like, oh, my gosh, we're running out of time. There's so many other things I want to talk about. Let's talk about food. So food is a piece here. Many of today's children are picky eaters because they are fed a diet of ultra processed sugary foods early on. You talk about your own kids like they're eating everything. You come from this. You know, your mom makes all this incredible Lebanese food like you. They're having all of these different types of foods. Then they go to poison preschool and they get packaged up and they become more picky. But I wanted to touch on this because I feel like this is a lie that's being popped around all over the place. You say this saying no to unhealthy food will not cause an eating disorder.
- [53:50]
Nicole Runyon
Yeah.
- [53:51]
Ginny Urich
Can you touch on that?
- [53:52]
Nicole Runyon
Yeah. So it's setting limits. It's having boundaries. And what causes an eating disorder is when you attach what you're eating to how you look, to, you know, your weight, to all the things that are on the surface with body image. And then that gets reinforced by our culture. Right. Social media makes it very easy to alter a picture to make someone look perfect. And then we're comparing ourselves and it's all sorts of mess. And then we think that, oh, if we just control our food, then we'll look a certain way. When you teach that what you eat helps you develop, it helps your brain, it helps you sleep better, it helps you focus better in school. So when you attach it to all of the health benefits from it, and you also explain the. The health consequences of not eating healthy, then you're basically saying, this is a family value. This is how we eat in our family. This is important to us, and this is because of our health. So you're creating a situation for your kids to understand that you have rules, you have boundaries, and you have limits. And that's really healthy, not just from a food perspective, but from an emotional perspective.
- [55:13]
Ginny Urich
So that's one of the pieces here too. Talk about that in the book. Then there is a lot in here about screens. So you say this is an overarching thing. The family is ill from an overabundance of digital technology, junk food and media. And you talk about this as these kids, childhoods, they're being stolen from them. They're giving a laptop. They're given a laptop at age 5 for school, smart devices as early as 8. What are we doing? And this is a big sentence. Society is having to bear the burden of kids who aren't ready to have devices and social media. Can you expound on that?
- [55:50]
Nicole Runyon
Yeah. So kids are going out into the world and really struggling. So our teachers are overburdened and exhausted because they're dealing with mental health issues. They're dealing with behavior issues that frankly should be taken care of at home before the child steps foot into the building. Our college campuses are overloaded with mental health issues and they don't have the infrastructure. So they're having to address things that they're not capable of addressing or were ready for because this influx just sort of came on the scene. And then our work world is now having to gently talk to our young people about constructive criticism and they tend to get offended. And HR is, you know, overloaded with trying to make everybody happy and comfortable. And so there's this whole kind of societal conversation around safe spaces and keeping people comfortable and not saying things to offend anyone. And we really do have it flipped because it's not society's job to not offend you. If you're offended by something, that's your issue. So as a therapist, where I start with someone when they're offended by something from society, I start with, okay, what. What's happening in you? Like, what is going on in you? Where did that start? What's your first memory of feeling that way? And then you're, you're sort of, you're flipping it on the person to take responsibility for whatever that is that's getting triggered. And so the wound isn't ever anyone's fault, but it does become our responsibility. So I happen to think that society now is crumbling under this idea that we have to make everybody happy and comfortable because. Because frankly, we're never going to make everyone happy and comfortable because we don't know everyone's individual issues. How do we know what's going to trigger someone and what's not? It's up to us as the individual.
- [57:49]
Ginny Urich
It's a really big deal. Yeah, that's so many stratas of the.
- [57:54]
Ginny Urich (Ad Reads)
Society that are affected.
- [57:55]
Nicole Runyon
Yeah.
- [57:56]
Ginny Urich
Like you said from hr. And I saw an article recently and it was something like, I'm going to get the, the numbers wrong. It was like 50% of Gen Z Parents are still making their kids lunch when they go to work.
- [58:06]
Nicole Runyon
Yeah, I saw that.
- [58:07]
Ginny Urich
You know, it's something like they're. They're going to be on the interview.
- [58:10]
Nicole Runyon
They're in the interview.
- [58:11]
Ginny Urich
Yeah, like, I'm 22. I'm going to bring my mom or. Or they're going to bring. To their. To their work review, you know, like when they have to go sit with their boss. Like, my dad's going to be here. And so what a statement. Society is having to bear the burden of kids who aren't ready to have devices. And social media technology has rendered our children dysfunctional. They lack social skills because they grew up behind a screen talking to their friends, not in person. They have trouble with critical thinking skills, often unable to make a simple decision without consulting their parents. I mean, there's so many notes here. I was like, gosh, I wish I could have, like, hours with Nicole. But you talk about how summer, it changes. Like, the summer months are slow because they don't need that therapy. There's a respite there. And so they're. Yeah, you talk about AI. Is this such a comprehensive book? And it's so current. I was just. I loved it. I was floored at how much was in there. I was underlying all. Pretty much all of it. You even talk about how therapists aren't supposed to be saviors. We're supposed to help people save themselves. Therapists are a mirror. You help people sit in their pain. You sit in their pain with them, I guess, and they have to figure out what they're going to do. You, like, don't tell them what's in their teeth. Instead you say, have you looked in the mirror lately? Maybe you should, you know. So you say, therapy is hard if you're doing it right, and parenting is hard if you're doing it right. That's something that you say over and over again. So does it feel hard, parent? Good, because it's supposed to. Parenthood is supposed to be hard. If it's hard, that's how you know you're doing it right. You must be willing to do the hard things so your children can go through natural developmental processes.
- [59:48]
Ginny Urich (Ad Reads)
It will be worth it.
- [59:50]
Ginny Urich
Our generation of parents is overworked, overburdened, burnt out, overcompensating for a childhood we didn't have, and overall apathetic. This is creating families that are not, well, not whole. So you have to do something about it. And really, it's those foundational pillars you're talking about, screens you're talking about Play, talking about nature, talking about food, talking about sleep. And basically, for 70% of kids, that's probably going to be enough. And then you're going to open up the spaces for the other 30% of kids. What a book, Nicole. What a book. And if parents need coaching, because that's what you say, you start working with the parents, they can reach out to you. I'll make sure I put the link in the show notes. I love that we both are from Michigan. You talk about a vacation in northern Michigan. Can you talk about. And you talk about getting outside when it's cold. We always end our show with the same question. So this is going back to that childhood and playing outside when it's cold, even in the cold winter months, or going back and forth between kids houses. The parents are minimally involved. Except at your house, your mom was like making everybody food, which is wonderful. But we always end our show with the same question. And the question is, what's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside?
- [60:57]
Nicole Runyon
Oh, my grandmother's backyard. She had an apple tree. And so all of us cousins would gather and there was a lot of us, there were 16 of us. And her backyard was tiny, but we were always out there. And we would climb the apple tree and we would see sit in it and us girls mainly would stay in it and the boys would play basketball. And I just. Those memories are so, so precious to me.
- [61:23]
Ginny Urich
All that community. That is wonderful. Nicole. I. I have not read a book like this in a while. I mean, it is so comprehensive. It is so important. You can look behind me. I've got. I've got shelves and shelves and shelves of books. I've learned so much from this one. That whole chart about the reflex and them integrating, I was like, I didn't know any of that. This is critically important for parents to know because the developmental windows come and go and like you said, they're rungs on a ladder. And so if you miss them, your child may struggle. And this is leading to societal issues. It's leading to families that are unwell and so pick it up. I mean, it's phenomenal. It's called Free to Fly. Nicole, thanks for writing it. It is so well written and so informative and so important. And thank you for spending this hour with us.
- [62:07]
Nicole Runyon
Thank you. And thank you for the work you do. I find this fascinating that you didn't know this information, but yet instinctually you know that getting kids outside is what they need. And I think that's really beautiful. So thank you.