← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
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- [00:02]
A
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B
Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Ertz. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside. I am wearing my lunatic ish shirt, which I love, and I have one that says everything I want to do is illegal. And my favorite farmer and author is here, Jose Joel Salton. Welcome.
- [00:52]
A
Thank you, Jenny. It's always a delight to spend any time I can with you. It's always great.
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B
What a thing to say that someone is your favorite and then to botch their name. Joel, this is a last minute we're together, just the two of us. Dr. Cena McCullough was supposed to be here. You do a podcast with her and you wrote this phenomenal book, phenomenal book together that I came across because of your podcast. It's called Beyond Labels. A doctor and a farmer Conquer food confusion one bite at a time. Do people know you have a podcast?
- [01:25]
A
Well, some people do, yes. I mean, I don't. You know, I'm, I'm the worst at whatever self self promotion in the world. I just, I mean, you know, I'm a marketer. I mean, I'll tell everybody about our beef and chicken and pork and eggs and stuff. But, but the social. I don't know, it, I don't know, it just. Yeah, I've just never been really in that space and so I'm kind of a reluctant, a reluctant participant in that whole electronic space. I know that's the way our country's going, but man, you know, I love, I love paper, I love books, I love, you know, this stuff. So anyway, yeah, I mean, the, the Beyond Labels podcast has been up and running now for several years. We, you know, we, we struggled through Covid. We got, we got canceled more than once and ended up finally having to go behind a paywall and so that we could say what we wanted to say. This whole censorship thing has been quite a, quite a bummer. But yeah, it's, you know, it's not millions and millions, but every week we come out with one and about half the time we have a guest and about half the time we don't. We just, and it turns out that our. Our base, what we hear back from them is their favor is when C and I seen. And I take a topic and we both. We just. We look at it from, you know, a farmer and a scientist, you know, perspectives, and we kind of banter. So the book, the book reflects that as well.
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B
Yep.
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A
Yeah. I mean, I can tell you how we got together on the book. We. We both spoke at a conference here in Virginia once. We never met each other. I didn't know her from Adam. She. She had. She knew about me and we spoke at this conference together and I mean, she just put me on the edge of my seat the whole time. I said, wow, this is a gal, you know, I mean, she has got it together. So she spoke first, then I was the. I was the end. And I got done. And boy, I ran right over to her. I said, man, you are. You are an amazing. Well, because it's so hard to find a small government or libertarian type in this space. And I mean, this was. This was 10, 12 years ago. So anyway, and. And she just, of course, seen a. You. You gotta just. She's such an indomitable. And she was so taken by how I was excited about what she. The way she'd come off that she said, oh, that's great. We should do a book together. And of course, I'm Mr. Yes man, you know, I said, yeah, we should do that. So we spent a year doping out how to do a book together and tried lots of different things. And finally I hit on the idea. Let's just do it as if we're having a conversation.
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B
Yeah.
- [04:14]
A
And don't. Don't try to. I won't check your work. You won't check my work. I mean, I mean, we'll read it, but. But we won't. We're not going to have a singular. We're going to let it be one voice, then another voice and another voice and another voice. And you know what? It worked. It worked really well. And the book has sold well. It continues to sell. We've been real pleased with it.
- [04:35]
B
Yeah, it sure does capture the banter. It is phenomenal. All your books are phenomenal, though. And I always think, gosh, how could this one? Is this one going to be as good as the other ones? Yes, yes, and yes. It always is. The juxtaposition here is really interesting. She has a PhD in nutrition. She's like at the top tier here of the education that she could have gotten and yet struggling with her health. So she talks about in this book that she has rheumatoid arthritis in her 30s and she has gotten MRSA. She has a tumor in the white of her eye. She has chronic fatigue, hair loss, kidney stones, food sensitivities, chronic sinus infections, into the point where she's lying on the floor in pain, her little son is having to bring her water, she's in so much pain. Ph.D. in nutrition. And here are you. And you have a degrees too. Very learned. You joke around about sometimes like, you know, I'm not the smartest, but I'm like, look at all those books. So, you know, very learned and degrees. And you have your own, but you're a farmer and you say people are, you know, you come in with your, with your suit on, People are like, where's your overalls? You're like, these are my town clothes. I've got town clothes and country clothes. You know, so this perception, there's a, there's a juxtaposition here of perception that the PhD in nutrition would be living this radically healthy life. And yet she was really struggling. And so if she were on Today, she would be able to tell us about that. But she was having some Internet issues. And so it's just you and I. And then you say on the other end of that, it's been 40 years and, or however many years, you know, and you've hardly gotten sick. You're like, I can't even remember. You know, cold, flu, hardly anything. So can you talk about that juxtaposition and why it makes this pairing of the two of you so powerful?
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A
Well, because, Jenny, we tend to live in silos, don't we? We do live in silos. So the weakness of a researcher is the. That, you know, the researcher might know all the Latin names for the skeletal bones of a pig. All right, but never meet a pig. I mean, think about that. Think about how much a researcher. I mean, I'm using a pig as.
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B
An example, but no, it's a good example. How many OB GYNs have never seen a full delivery of a baby naturally?
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A
Right.
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B
Like my midwife would talk about that. They've gone to all this school, but they've never been through a 24 hour full labor.
- [06:57]
A
Right, right. And so this is, this is the common issue. So here, here, Sina was this, you know, Ph.D. in, in nutrition and in her early 30s, planning her funeral. Literally planning. I mean, I'm not kidding. Planning her funeral because she was so chronically sick. And so that was her. Whatever story. And finally her husband Donnie said, you know, Cena. If she. She went to every doctor, every. I mean, her. Her story is just. I mean, your heart breaks. And finally Donnie told her, she's lying on the floor. She can't. She can't stand. She can't. She's so weak. They're planning her funeral and die. Says, you're gonna have. You're gonna have to figure this out. You're very smart. You're supposed to figure this out. And she started. I mean, she couldn't do anything, so she just started listening to quacks, all sorts of alternative therapy kind of people. Structured water to vitamins to whatever, you know, exercise, different things, all the. You know, the. What we call the quacks. And she started changing her diet. But if she were here, she will tell you that the real breakthrough came when she forgave her dad for not being the dad that she thought she deserved. She and I talk a lot about forgiveness as the beginning of everything, and when she finally let go of that resentment, then her healing journey really took off. And so as much. As much as we. We do talk about food, we talk about, you know, dietary things, both of us are extremely adamant, if you will, that a lot of this is. Is spiritual and mental.
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B
Right?
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A
You know, almost. Almost everybody can concoct a story of undeservedness about our parents. Almost everybody can. And we, as parents, who of us is perfect? I mean, you know, I mean, I've. I've yelled at the kids. I've. I've. I've. Every one of us has done stuff we're ashamed of. And a good friend of mine told me one time, he said, you know, the day I became an adult, I said, no. When? And, you know, he's like 60 years old. I said, when, Jim. He said, the day that I realized my parents did the best they knew, and that's all they could do.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And I grew up in a great home. I grew up in a great Christian home. I mean, you know, mom and dad were. For me, especially dad, and. And. And, you know, he couldn't wait to step in the shadows and put me on the stage. I mean, you know, he was a delegator. Just. Just a real. I mean, they weren't parent. I mean, we had our arguments, a couple fights, especially when I was a rebellious teenager. But I know. I mean, mom. Group mom grew up in a. In a alcoholic home. Her dad abandoned her mom and her little sister and her. You know, when. When they were just little kids, you know, five and six years old, the two little girls and the drunk, the drunk walked out. And this was in the depression, you know, they had to move to Texas to live with relatives in a little two apartment thing just to survive. So she grew up in a tough situation and has carried that baggage, you know, with her. I mean, that just that hardness, hardness sometimes makes you a bit hard. But you know what? I know she was doing the best she could. And so then, so then I grow up. Who grows up in a perfect home? Nobody grows up in a perfect home. And so, so, so you grow up in this imperfection and you realize as you become an adult, oh, my past still raises its ugly head, you know, from time to time. And, and it just does. And so as adults, I'm getting back to Cena because, because her story is so. I think it's just so profound that when she realized her, her parents did the best that they could for her and forgave all the rest, that's when her healing journey really took off.
- [11:25]
B
Wow.
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A
And I think that's true for a lot of things. I mean, we've had numerous guests on everything from, you know, psycho people to, you know, to immunotherapy to, you know, structured water and all sorts of stuff. And it's amazing how many times the discussion turns into some sort of emotional trauma, you know, that this, this emotion. I'm not good enough. I'm not pretty enough, I'm not smart enough, I'm not thin enough. I don't have enough time, I don't get enough sleep. I don't have enough support. My spouse doesn't love me enough. What I expected, you know, like the gal that said, I didn't know when I married Mr. Right that it was going to be Mr. Always. Right. And, you know, the life is life. You know, things happen and we all have our, we all have our stuff. So yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a powerful, powerful reminder of how, how profound the healing of forgiveness can be.
- [12:31]
B
That's really good. I mean, and it's very holistic. The book is called Beyond Labels. And it's really deep because, you know, you, you think you're going to be reading. And I think I've read quite a bit, but I was like, well, I learned a whole lot. But it's more, it's really more about freedom.
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A
Yeah.
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B
You know that when you get into the depth of it, you're like, wait a minute, I shouldn't even need these labels to begin with. Like, I should be able to make my own choices. You always do such a Fantastic job in your books about leading the reader. Like, at the end, you're changed philosophically. You have more knowledge about the things that you didn't totally understand, but you sort of have this philosophical change about, like, why am I so dependent on labels? You know, obviously, like, you know, oh, they're misleading, they're missing things. The wording is awful. What about this? And then you're like, well, wait a minute, I know. An egg is an egg and an apple is an apple. So there's always like that philosophical underpinning. Even when you're talking about forgiveness, you talk about in the marvelous pigment of pigs. And you said, you know, she was hard. And that made me think about when you talk about the soil and that God has given this parallel where when you work the soil and you put in all of this compost and you like what you did with your family. Right. You go, it's hard, it's compacted, there's gullies. Nothing is growing there. But forgiveness happens. And what happens? It softens.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Over time.
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A
Yeah. And, you know, the. Beyond labels, of course, you know, the, The. The obvious. The obvious part of it is beyond food labels, you know, what. What's on a food label. Yeah. But it. But it also includes how fast we are to label ourselves, to label, like stage four cancer, stage three cancer. And I remember. I remember like yesterday. Jenny, get real personal here. I don't know if I get through it, but I remember the day that dad found out he had prostate cancer and he'd been into a physical, and doctor said, yeah, you probably ought to go to a urologist, just have this checked. And, I mean, he was healthy.
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B
He.
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A
You know, we were farming together and. And he was doing his accounting and I was doing the farm and. And, you know, I'd only been here full time for a couple of years. And so anyway, he went and got a biopsy and he'd gone into town with mom to get the results, and he didn't get back. So we were milking two Guernsey cows at the time. He'd milk one, I'd milk one. And he didn't get back by the time I was done with mine, so I just went ahead and milked his. And it was evening, sun was going down, and he walked in the barn, and I didn't recognize him. My own dad. In two hours, he had gone from a upbeat, happy, vibrant whatever to, I got it, I'm done. And, you know, it took. It took a couple more years to finally put him in the grave, but he. He Never. He never got out of it and seen. And I, we do this all the time on our, on our podcast now to stay up to date with, you know, with current things that are going on and then, and the labels, you know, that people have. And I'm just struck by the, the emotional toll that a diagnosis gives someone. And so part of the beyond labels concept is, is to go beyond those labels too.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And so we spend a fair amount of time now in that, in that kind of wellness space, not just the food space, but the wellness space regarding all the, the options and opportunities that are out there where you don't have to be stigmatized by the label that you have. And it's a, it's a big deal.
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B
It's a very philosophical. You get to the end of the book and you realize that you've gotten so much more out of it than you expected that you were going to because of what you're saying. That the late. You know, obviously a label can be misleading, a label can be wrong. But what I never really thought about was how much the label is missing. And that could be good or bad. You know, it could be missing the fact that these chickens were out on pasture, or it could be missing that this says organic, but it was grown in soil that wasn't tested for heavy metals.
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A
Right.
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B
Yeah. So that whole concept of labels and just not needing it, they go, oh gosh, you know, I would be so much more free if I didn't rely on these labels. You know how the mornings are starting to get that extra little chill. I've noticed it every time I head out the door. And lately I keep grabbing my lightweight down puffer jacket from Quince. It's warm, it's light, and it's become my go to layer. Cooler days really do call for layers that last. And quints is where I find those essentials that feel cozy, look refined, and don't blow my budget. Think 50 Mongolian cashmere sweaters. Premium denim that fits like a dream, and luxe outerwear you'll wear year after year. These aren't one season pieces. They're the kind of staples that quickly become your fall uniform. Right now I'm eyeing their wool coats. They look totally designer, but the price tag is just a fraction. And honestly, the quality is just as good, if not better. Here's why Quince partners directly with top tier ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen so you get true luxury quality at half the price of similar brands. If you are ready for a wardrobe upgrade that feels smart, Stylish and effortless. Find your fall staples at Quints and go to quint.com outside for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N c.com outside to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quint.com outside you know, sometimes I laugh at all the things I wish I'd done earlier in life. Like buying bitcoin back when it was less than a penny. Or learning to code instead of learning French or. Or learning to just let my kids play freely when they were young instead of dragging them to all those enrichment programs. Honestly, I think a lot of us feel that way. We are the FOMO generation after all. But here's the truth. You don't have to miss out on everything. Protecting your family's future is something you can do today. And it costs about the same per month as one of those streaming services we all forgot to cancel. That's right. I'm so glad I found select quote. For over 40 years, they've helped more than 2 million Americans secure over $700 billion in coverage. Their licensed agents compare plans from top rated companies to find the policy that fits for health, your lifestyle and your budget. And they do it for free. Even better, many families get covered the same day, up to $2 million worth, sometimes with no medical exam required. And if you've got health conditions like high blood pressure or diabetes, you are not out of luck. Select Quote works with companies that specialize in that too. Life insurance is never cheaper than it is today. Get the right life insurance for you for less and save more than 50%@SelectQuote.com 1000 hours save more than 50% on term life insurance@SelectQuote.com 1000 hours today to get started. That's SelectQuote.com 1000 hours when did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together.
- [19:55]
A
Use polls to settle dinner plans, send.
- [19:57]
B
Event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom 60th and never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn more@WhatsApp.com so I want to talk about a couple of the specific ones. I thought just to kind of give an example of the underpinnings of this book. Like you say, okay, you took your eggs to Whole Foods in this really plain packaging. Like we just call them Eggs. They're eggs, you know, like, they're like, no, we can't have them. It's too plain. And yet your eggs in comparison, like, you have this chart in the book about their. You've gone through and done the nutrition testing, and it is remarkable, Joel, remarkable, the nutrient difference. So you've got the USDA 0.97 vitamin E, but on polyphase it's 7.37. I mean, that's so much higher. Or the folate. The folate in the USDA egg is 47 and the poly face egg is 1200. So the labels are missing these types of things, but they're missing. The one that really stuck out to me talking about eggs was you said don't ever buy a boxed, like a boxed mix. So like a cake mix or a box mix with eggs in it.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Can you talk about what's happening there? I mean, this is just one small example of what's not on a label.
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A
Yeah, so. So this, this is a story that developed back in our early days. We would take our eggs, when we started into the, you know, commercial egg thing, we, to try to save time and money and all, we took them down to a, an egg egg farm, a place that had laying hens 20 miles away. And they, they had automatic, you know, automatic equipment that, that you could just put the eggs in and they'd go down a conveyor and they would, they would wash them and. And candle them. Candle is, is to look through the egg and see if it's got cracks or blood spots or something. And then it would automatically grade them into, you know, large, medium, small stuff. So we went down there and initially to kind of get ourselves, see what we were going to get into. And so here were the eggs. They were coming in directly from the laying house on a conveyor, you know, because this, this is a laying house with a hundred thousand chickens in it. You know, multi tiers. I mean, the play. You couldn't, you know, you couldn't even breathe in the place. And the eggs are coming out on a conveyor. They get washed and the wash water is full of manure, broken eggs, chlorine, you know, I mean, it's just a filthy, filthy bath. And then they come up, they get dried and they go. And there was a lady under, under a, a canopy, like a, you know, a photo, an old photographer's tent. And she's looking and they go across a light and she's looking for blood spots and cracks and, and, you know, different things. And so she's you know, she's watching them for that and a candling and, and, and she's got a, a stack of carton eggs next to her and she's, she's pulling eggs off of there and putting them in there, putting them in there. And it's basically she's picking out cracked eggs. And I said, what happens to those? Said, oh, they go down the road to a place that puts them through a centrifuge and squeezes out the egg from the shell through a centrifuge. And that's what goes into things that are pasteurized eggs like in, you know, Betty Crocker, Duncan Hines cake mixes, you know, where you don't have to add eggs. And so you realize that it has a little bit of manure in it, a little bit of who knows what in it and that's what's going on. So that, that's why I say, you know, if you're going to buy a cake mix, get one where you have to add eggs. So you're not getting one that has those kind of eggs in it. But that, that's never described on the label.
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B
No, that's the problem.
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A
It's never described on the label.
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B
That's the problem. The whole eggs went in there, manure, chlorine, insides and outsides. They had just come through a washer that was full of manure and chlorine. And that's, that's what you're not expecting to get out of the book. There's all these practical, they're called practical bites. All of these things that you can, small changes that you can make. You're not expecting to really have this epiphany that labels are so limited, they're so limited in what they provide and on both ends of it, like you're not really going to get the sense that, well, goodness, these eggs have way more folate. And also on the cake mix, cake mix box, it's not saying might have particles of manure in it or chlorine. And you talk about how all of these shelf stable foods, they are holding up. They're trying to make it slower so that nothing goes bad on the shelf. Well, that's the same thing that's happening then in your gut, you know, the same whatever agents they're using. So it's, it's so much to learn about the labels. It really is eye opening as a full read, like beginning to end and you, and you end it and you're like, huh? There would never be any way to fully label something. Well, first of All. And second, we shouldn't be dependent on them because they're not an accurate picture. I mean, obviously, there's propaganda. There's all of that. Like, you talk about, everything's better with Blue Bonnet on it. So it's like it's from propaganda to the omission of what's in there. Even one that said labels can be off by 20% and still be in compliance as far as calories go. So you might think a cheeseburger has 240 calories, but really it's got 300. That's actually a really big difference. So it's super interesting. There's a ton to learn about when it comes to that. And then I really love this concept. Josh and I actually talked about this quite a bit. And this is toward the beginning of the book where you say to focus on what you are for. And I thought that's a really big life change, so focus on what you are for. And you talk about it in terms of weeds. And we've had that discussion our whole marriage. Josh is a little bit more focused on the weeds. Oh, we've got Birdhawk, you know, and you say that every farmer is bringing up weeds. They're obsessed with the weeds, but you say you're not. You're obsessed with what you want, and then you spend time creating. And I think it all weaves together. Same with the labels. What do you want? Can you talk about that change in perspective? I think that works for anything. It works for. If you're a farmer and you've got weeds, but it works kind of for any situation in life.
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A
Yeah, well, I mean, it's. It's kind of the difference between thinking. Thinking on good things, you know. What does Paul tell us? He thinks. Think on things that are lovely and beautiful and of a positive report. You know, let those occupy your mind. And if you spend your time thinking on those things, you won't think about the sinful things. You know, you're crowded out. Here's. Here's a great example. So, you know, I'm getting older. Well, we're all getting older, but I'm substantially older than you are. And our society, Jenny, our society right now is as people hit 70 or more, they're obsessed with what am I going to get? You know, what. How am I going to. How am I going to get around? How am I going to, you know, do as. As I get, as I get older? So Cena and I have concentrated a lot on how do I maintain my enthusiasm and excitement and purpose for living I don't have time. And I. I find myself actually, now that I'm almost 70, literally having these conversations in my mind when these. When these, you know, I see some old person and they're almost, you know, they're. They're in terrible shape. You know, they got their oxygen on their nose, all this stuff, and it's insidious to think, boy, I hope that's not me in 10 years. I hope that's not me in 15 years. And instead I'm training myself to immediately go to, man, I got. I got too much stuff to do to slow down. I got. I got. I got trees to cut. I got, you know, chickens to butcher. I got. I got people to talk to. And you literally, you want. You crowd out this again, that is a label, you know, COPD or, you know, whatever it is that. And as soon as you take on that label and it limits you. Well, I've got the label, you know, I've got the thing. And. And so if you crowd it out, so weed, you know, I've got. I've got burdock. But instead, if we say, hey, a cows actually like to eat burdock. So we. It has a lot of medicinal qualities. And so I'm very thankful, you know, for the burdock. A great example, a great example right now that has been very meaningful for me is drought. Nothing depresses a farmer like drought. I mean, you know, you just go out there every day, the things are turning brown, stuff is dying, you know, there's nothing you can do about just is. And I used to come in and, you know, just depressed, you know, oh, no rain again. No rain again. And then several years ago, I had this epiphany, you know, when a drought ends when it rains, and they always end. So now I've trained myself to come into the house instead of looking at Teresa, oh, another day of drought, no rain. I come in and say, hey, we're one day closer to rain, you know, and it. And it completely changes your. Your outlook to say we're one day closer to rain than another day without rain. And, you know, this is not silliness, Jenny. This is not silliness. This is the stuff of flourishing life. And that's the problem with labels, is that they conveniently. A label conveniently binds us to the convenience of that title, that name, that thing. And we're suddenly unable to see the opportunity, the development factor, the growth factor around that situation. And so, yeah, weeds are a. Weeds are a great, great example. And so on our farm, yeah, we've got weeds out in the field, but the cows love them and they eat them and it's fine. And we just keep spreading compost because we know compost build soil. And as long as we have good soil, we're going to have good vegetation. And if the weeds are what the cows want, I mean, now we know that the single biggest factor in the nutritional quality of beef is how many different kinds of plants the animal ate. Wow. That's more important than climate, more important than breeding, genetics, anything, is how many different plants did the cow eat. And so, you know, the Native American prairie, now, this is just kind of new information. In just the last couple of years, the native. The Native American Prairie had about 60 species of grass and almost a thousand species of weeds. So those bison were eating. So when we say weeds, we call them Forbes. In other words, it's any. It's any plant besides grass. And, you know, that variety maintains all sorts of biological community, from insects to birds to, you know, if. If you don't have some. Some nice big old goldenrod and chicory and wild carrot in your fields in the fall, where are the garden spiders going to make their spider webs? I mean, they can't make them on grass. Grass is too flimsy. They're looking for something a little bit taller and something to make webs on.
- [32:18]
B
This is applicable. It's applicable to so many things. That's the whole point. You know, you even brought up earlier about you talk to these different guests, and so many say, I'm not enough, and I'm. And I don't have enough. And you talk so much in your books about how God is a God of abundance and you see that in the garden. And so all of these things, they relate to each other. And the lesson you learn here is applicable to a different spot. So you say, I want to read it every time I talk with farmers. Every time I get questions about weeds, this weed, that weed, what am I supposed to do about it? Farmers are obsessed with weeds. You're like, we don't do it. We don't even think about it at all. And then you said, so instead, you're focusing on what we want to create. And then you said, this. Healing came. Look how it all relates. Healing came on the heels of contentment, because you're content. And so you're not going to spray and you're not going to mow and you're not. You're not ripping them out of the ground. And actually, then those weeds are feeding the soil and it says they brought up the minerals, they loosen the soil to make way for clover and timothy. We can't just be against things like against food, chemicals or animal abuse. We have to viscerally picture a beautiful alternative and work toward that. So there's so much you get out of this book besides just the thoughts on the labels and talking about, you know, you're saying, okay, I'm getting close to 70. It relates to that, right. Instead of being like, oh, if I didn't have this really at any age, you know, I think like okay, if I didn't have these five kids, I'm homeschooling. You know, like you in any age you can, you can have these things if, if not. If I didn't have the weed.
- [33:54]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [33:55]
B
The healing comes on. Healing comes on the heels of content.
- [33:58]
A
Yeah, it does. And Jenny, I think, I mean you know, you're the, you're the homeschooling guru, you're the, you're the nature thousand hours outside guru. And I think, I think this speaks to exactly what you've tried to do. You dare to suggest that instead of being worried about, about, oh no, you know, how do I limit my kids screen time? Oh no, are my kids going to see something bad on Tick Tock? Oh no, am I, you know, and so we have all this paranoia, this fear and paranoia about the weeds in our kids life. And, and I think you would agree, you would suggest, you know what, instead of being obsessed about that, how about we get outside and fill the kids heads with play and spiders and ants and birdsong. And that faith in the positive.
- [34:47]
B
Yes.
- [34:48]
A
Simply makes the paranoia of fear a non issue because it's crowded out, it's simply crowded out with other, with other valuable interests.
- [34:59]
B
That is so. Right. That's what it is. That's what it is. So you can take this and apply to any. Just stop focusing on the weeds. Stop focusing on the weeds and focus on what you do want out of life. It is in there. It's so wild. To me with your books you come out with so much more than you could have thought and like your mind starts like working with it. And for me it didn't come till the end of the book. Like I finished the book and I was like, okay, this is, this is way more than just the word. The clever speak on a label. You know, it says pasture raised and that just means that they can extend one wing, you know. And you're like this is ridiculous. It's just way more than that. Finally, in your wellness era, Then you know gut health is gut wealth. And with 20 years of science behind it, Activia can help keep those good gut vibes going. Deliciously smooth and creamy Activia probiotic yogurts and dailies have billions of live and active probiotics and help support gut health While you go about your day, your gut is where it all begins. So start with Activia. Enjoying Activia twice a day for two weeks is part of a balanced diet. And healthy lifestyle can help reduce the frequency of minor digestive discomfort.
- [36:07]
A
My marathon isn't about time. It's about my 26 friends with intellectual disabilities I'm dedicating each mile to. I'm Joseph. I'm running my first bank of America Chicago Marathon for Special Olympics Illinois to help give my friends a place to shine.
- [36:25]
B
Join bank of America in supporting Joseph's cause. Give if you can@bofa.com supportjoseph. What would you like the power to do? Bank of America references to charitable organizations is not an endorsement by bank of America Corporation.
- [36:37]
A
Limu Emu and Doug, here we have the Limu Emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.
- [36:55]
B
Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us.
- [36:57]
A
Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty.
- [37:01]
B
Liberty.
- [37:02]
A
Liberty.
- [37:03]
B
Liberty Savings. Very unwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company affiliates.
- [37:06]
A
Excludes Massachusetts.
- [37:07]
B
And then you talk about these changes. I think this is one of the most important things, Joel, is understanding the changes that have happened that are. That have been so rapid in our culture, but that you might not know because you're a decade or two out of it. So you talked about how when you were a kid. This is so wild to me, Joel, when you were a kid. Okay, I want to read it. And you went to lunch as a teenager. This is in the 70s, so this is not that long ago. This is like in so many people's lifetimes. You're a teenager in the 70s. You would bring eggs from your hens and they would cook them for you. Yeah, what a difference. What a difference in terms of what's going on with our food supply in kids lunches. And then you talked about how when you were a kid, there were so many more fish in the river, and now we've got these genetically modified fish. Can you talk about some of these significant changes? And I think part of what it does is it reminds us of what is historically normal so that we can make better choices and not get caught up in this dominant culture of, you know, of school lunches that are not healthy. Like, I'm like picturing I've got my two eggs, you know, like bringing them with you and having to be careful with them and being like, here, can someone cook these for me?
- [38:30]
A
Yeah, well, you know, when I was, when I was a teen, I supplied, I supplied to two public school cafeterias with all their eggs. I mean, they were still using shell eggs at that time. And today you're not going to find an egg in a.
- [38:44]
B
Wait a minute, wait a minute. Wait. That's what this means?
- [38:47]
A
Yeah.
- [38:47]
B
Wait, wait. Okay, I. I am picturing. I read it wrong. I'm picturing you showing up with your own eggs and they're gonna use. It does say that I supplied two public schools with eggs from my hens.
- [39:02]
A
Yeah, that's right. That's right. In other words, all the kids. All the kids got them.
- [39:07]
B
I read it wrong. Oh, you're, you're supplying all the kids with the egg.
- [39:10]
A
Yeah, yeah. The school, the school bought their eggs. But today, Jenny, schools don't even buy eggs, right? They don't even use that. I mean, man, when I was a teen in a school cafeteria, you know, there was, there was scratch cooking. I mean, they, they made, they had bread rising, you know, and made whole rolls and like I said, you know, bought eggs and bought potatoes and, and, and I mean, those, those ladies in there cooked, you know, from scratch. And now they've got agreements with Papa John's pizza and, you know, all sorts of things, you know, to. Don't even have. They don't. I mean, the, the first thing that a school has to deal with when you start talking about cooking actual food is, well, we don't have anything to cook with anymore. We had a friend, she's an art teacher, so her first in one of her assignments in her class, she had the kids early in the season. It's a pretty simple thing to draw. She said, I want everybody to bring in a cooking pot from your kitchen on Monday. We're going to draw that. And the kids looked at her and said, what's a cooking pot? The whole class, they didn't know what a cooking pot was because they're eating microwavable, single service, ultra processed stuff that they only meet together as a family. You know, they just graze through the day. Well, I'm hungry. I'll go pop this in. And I'm hungry, I'll pop this in. And this is the way people eat and so the whole ultra processed food thing is not because suddenly people woke up one day and said, I want ultra processed food. It's because the convenience food took over the domestic culinary arts to where now nobody's actually cooking from scratch. And the convenience food, in order to stretch the food quality when it's grown with chemicals, is so bland and tasteless that they've got to spice it up with all sorts of, you know, dyes and, and, and taste enhancers, monosodium glutamate, these sorts of things. And then they want to extend to self life. So the sell by date can be, you know, an extra year or two. So they're looking for shelf stability. And so all the food science has coalesced around how do we get bland stuff to be tasty and how do we get perishable stuff to last forever? I mean those, those are the two basic goals, objectives of the food system, which is now dominated by the leftover chemists from the tobacco companies when they went out of business. So here we are. And I think the, the most important thing to understand here is that as, as the industrial food system became huge and opaque to the average person, you know, the. Ralph Nader writes, the consumer advocacy people got scared of, of what's going on behind that fence with the guard towers. You know, what's going on back there. So they asked for government, government oversight to look over that fence and protect them from nefarious activities going on behind that fence. That was the public request. What they didn't know was that the government inspectors were going to go to bed with the industry. That's what they didn't know. And that's of course what's fueling RFK Junior's thing about agency capture, the revolving door, all that. That's actually what happened. And so anyone who thinks that a, you know, a stamp of safe food on something means it's okay is putting faith in a, a very corrupt relationship.
- [42:52]
B
That's right. That's right. Yes. The stamp of safe food. I just, I'm so appreciate. I so I can't believe I got that wrong. I'm picturing you bringing your own eggs to school. You're actually supplying the whole school with their food and, and another school. So. But I think that when you have these, just, even if they're small touch points, Joel, like I read Rory Grove's book about the family economy and I've, you know, I've heard you talk about Daniel. And I met Daniel and he stayed on the farm and he's out working with you, you know, starting at a young age. You were doing hen starting at 10, you know, getting them from the Sears and Roebucks catalog. I so am grateful when people talk about just their life experience, because what it does is it sparks ideas that, oh, maybe I could do this differently. And it gives people courage. So maybe it's okay if I bring my lunch to work or I send my kid with a homemade lunch to school, because this is normal. This is historically normal. They used to cook for the kids. And I think that those things are so important to talk about. I want to hit two more topics. I hope that we have time. Here's one. You talk about the stamp of safe food. So we're talking about labels, and you're like reading all of these different things about the organic label that can have some issues, and then you have to basically pay for it. It costs so much money to get those certifications. Or you talk about free ranges of marketing farce. But then there's also this situation where some things can't be labeled at all because they're illegal. And I want to read this. You're trying to figure out how to make a salary on your farm. And you say creeks for kids to build dams in and woods for kids to build forts in and chores to do and a garden to weed. This is all well and good, and it is. It sure is. Creeks and dams and woods and forts and chores and gardens, but it did not a business make. You see, I very much enjoyed milking the couple of cows we had and realized I could milk 10 cows by hand and sell that milk at regular prices and make a good living. There was only one problem. It was illegal. I have never gotten over that. Government policy, encouraged by fearful, ignorant consumer votes, deprived me of an entrepreneurial farm income and deprived my neighbors from getting good food. And in some ways, it's depriving the creeks for the kids and the dams and the woods for forts and all of those things. It's pretty deep. So beyond labels means in some ways, like that's beyond labels because it's illegal.
- [45:23]
A
Yeah.
- [45:24]
B
So it really gets your mind spinning about so much, Joel.
- [45:27]
A
Yeah, well, the labels. I mean, what. The way the labels work in our country right now is that in order to sell something, it needs a label. I mean, legally. Okay, so. So this is. This is the basic pitch. Well, as soon as the government said. As soon as the government decided that they were going to monitor labels and it was illegal to sell something without a label.
- [45:55]
B
What a catch 22.
- [45:57]
A
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You Got it. Suddenly they were able to define what's legal and not legal to sell because they define what could go on a label. And anyone like us, we now have numerous, you know, actual, you know, approved labels. But I mean, they have a certain font size, a certain font type, certain information has to go on at a certain place, a certain. I mean, getting a label approved itself is just a nightmare because. So, so, you know, one of the reasons. One of the reasons that we just. When we sell eggs, we make no claim. They're eggs. They're not grade A, large nothing. They're just eggs. Why? Because as soon as we say they're grade A or they're large, then we have to have our. We have to candle them and we have to have the government certify our candling procedures and our scale procedures. Now you have another level of paperwork, bureaucracy and stuff. Yeah. And money. Right. And that's time. And, you know, you have to talk to these bureaucrats. You've got to figure out, you know, when can you come out and all this. And so this is why we've decided to just not make a claim on our. On our beef and pork. It's just beef and pork. We don't say. We don't say grass finished. We don't say hormone free. We don't any of this stuff. We just. We just say it's beef. And then what we do is we depend on our social media, our. Our branding messaging to explain these things to people. About five years ago, they. They came out with a thing where we had to put a nutrition label on all of our stuff. Well, a nutrition label costs thousands of dollars. And if you're, if you're, whatever, Tyson. Well, you can do a nutrition label, but if you're us and you're not selling, you know, 10 million pounds of stuff, thousands of dollars for a nutrition label on. On everything. You know, one on a ribeye steak, one on ground beef, one on pork chops, one on tenderloin, one on eggs, one on. And so what we did, we just. What they allowed you to do was if you didn't want to have a customized label that was actually, you know, for your stuff, you could simply use the USDA Nutrition nutrition label. And the nice concession they made was that you don't have to actually put it on the package. You can have it at point of sale. So if you're in a store, you could have it, you know, at point of sale that people could look at it where. Where they bought it. So we got a notebook, took The USDA labels from everything out there put in a notebook with a great big sign on the front, here's the nutrition label. They're completely inaccurate because our food is 10 times better than anything on these USDA labels. But at least this is compliant. We just made a big joke out of it. And customers laughed. They loved it. You know, it was a, it was a whole. It was just a, it was just a joke. But that's how controlled and regulated, you know, the food system is and how difficult it is to actually create truth, actually create, you know, truth into the system.
- [49:18]
B
It's so much. It's so much. And it is, it's, it goes against the small farmers. The regulatory prejudice against scale inherently discriminates against smaller outfits. And it's ongoing. And then you talked about, like, who wants to be doing all that paperwork? You're on a farm, you've got so much to do, and some of them are costing $200,000. And then you can't even use the word. You say organic is owned by the government, and unless I pay for the certification license. And this one person you talked about only had three, three certifications, $200,000 a year. Well, where is that going? That's going into the cost of your food.
- [49:53]
A
Exactly, exactly.
- [49:55]
B
So the government is making all that money. It is wild. You say certifications and verifications cater to a certain type of person. They cater to the person who loves paperwork and spending time filling in dots and measuring all these things. And certifications can be manipulated anyway. So all these labels, I'm like, okay, a label, you know, I've looked at labels a ton of times and then by the end of it, you're like, look, if you get so much freedom, if you can move away from this life of labels, so much freedom in so many different areas. I wanted to hit one last topic because I think it's really important. It's the topic of that nothing gets walked back to the level that it's propagandized, I guess, if that's a word. So you know, they're going to come out and they're going to say, margarine, margarine, margarine. They're going to say, put this mask on your three year old. You know, they're going to come out and say all of these different things and then when it turns out that it's incorrect, the walking back. First of all, it takes a really long time. You talked about DDT. You're like, this is 14 years plus. If you really knew, it's like Kind of still in the stuff. Like there's things going on, but we're going to put out all of these things and talk about margarine and when we find out that we were wrong, like Cena was talking about how her mom would crack the eggs and put the yolk in the other bowl and make sure that they didn't eat any yolk at all. Yeah, this is so against common sense. Here's what you said though, and I thought this was such an, this is like a key line for life. You say you have to have an informed context so that you can have reasonability and avoid being gullible. So that, you know, talking about like being out on the farm and you know, you have a better understanding about what makes sense and what doesn't make sense. You're like, would God make this egg? And you have to strain out the yolk every time. Like it, it doesn't make sense. So I, I just feel like this hands on living, the whole point is like taking life into your own hands, that first of all, you're not going to fall for the things as quickly. You have a little bit more common sense and then you're not, you don't, you're not reliant because no one ever walks it back. Like I was able to talk to this Dr. Marty Makary who's like the head of the FDA right now. And I got to talk to him before he got that position. I was his last interview before he got this government role which was such an honor. But we were talking about the peanut thing and he was like, they just, they went full force like, no peanuts, no peanuts, no peanuts. And then when they realize that it was wrong and all these kids are getting these allergies, they don't go as full force to say, we were wrong, we were wrong, we were wrong about the social distancing six feet. So I guess my question is, is these things actually matter quite a bit? Yeah, it matters quite a bit. If you're going to send a two year old to preschool with a mask on, it matters quite a bit. If your kid ends up with life threatening allergies, it matters quite a bit. If you're as sick as Cena with a tumor on your eye and you can't even get up from the ground because you're in so much pain. How can we be a type of population that is more reasonable, more informed and less gullible?
- [53:02]
A
Well, you, you know, Dave Ramsey talks about, you tend to be successful at what you put attention on. And I Think there's a lot of truth to that. And I think that we are so distracted. You know, when Aldous Huxley wrote the Brave New World, one of the themes through that book, and of course, that's iconic, you know, in American literature now, but one of the themes through that book is how everybody lives a completely distracted existence.
- [53:30]
B
That's right.
- [53:31]
A
And so in that book, you know, the government has all sorts of free theater and plays and movies, and so that nobody ever is alone, nobody's ever isolated, nobody's ever thinking. They're either at work or they're being entertained. They're at work or they're being entertained. And that's it.
- [53:50]
B
Yep.
- [53:51]
A
And I. I think that the biggest lie in the world is thinking that we can make a better world without me having to do anything. And we. We all grow up with this idea, well, you know, if those people over there would just do that, and if that guy over there would just do that. Right? And if that woman over there would just do the right thing and, you know, somehow the world would be better. And actually, the world is where it is because of us. It's not them. It's you and me and what are we doing. And so, yeah, you can become informed and educated about what you put attention on, but if every weekend is just being a couch potato watching the NFL, you are going to end the year at the same intellectual level that you are when you entered it. And I wish there were a. I wish there were a shortcut. You know, I wish there were a way, you know, that you could put books under your pillow and they would come into your head by osmosis. But, you know, but it doesn't work that way. And so, yeah, you. You have to. You have to put attention on reading anti narratives, on listening to anti narratives. You need to immerse yourself in the lunatic fringe, because the lunatic fringe is where all the innovation comes from, ultimately.
- [55:14]
B
Yeah. And you maybe would be on a worse intellectual level, honestly, because there's so much propaganda and there's so many lies out there and there's so many clever ways that industry is trying to trick you. And so this really is a book about participating in and taking matters into your own hands and trying to live this beyond labels, life, and in context. I want to read this. These couple sentences you wrote. Okay, I'm going to read this. Three sentences. The reason a food pyramid would have never been possible a hundred years ago is because sterile packages, out of context, didn't exist. Everyone churned butter or bought butter from someone who did? Everyone participated in the family hog killing at Thanksgiving and watched the lard being rendered. It was part and parcel of life and created an informed context to reasoning and gullibility. You have to participate. You have to participate. Otherwise you end up being uninformed and gullible. And that to me is like, you know, you read the book and you learn so much, but you leave with a whole different perspective in philosophy. It is phenomenal. It's called Beyond Labels. You can also listen to your podcast. I wanted to tell you, I. I have this thing I've started to say to our kids all the time that comes from you, and I love you got these little quips from your dad. So you talk about not overrunning the headlights.
- [56:27]
A
Yeah.
- [56:27]
B
Like, not going out too far in front. You had another one from your dad and this one about leading. My dad used to say, you can't push a string. You lead by example. Can't push on a string. This is one from you. Because, you know, our kids complain about this, that, and everything. I don't want to, you know, with, you know, they're playing the piano. I don't want to. And I say to them all the time, you're only disappointed in the skills you don't have. And I learned that from you. You're only disappointed. And so you are leading by example. Joel. It's like, look, here's a life without tv. It's a life without coffee. It's a life without gambling. You know, it's a life without a lot of trappings that lead to a lack of consciousness. Actually, I think that's how you put it. You were talking about, if you're just sitting around and having beer on the weekends, that's the level of consciousness for most people that, like, that's all you need. But the world according to you, no lottery tickets. You know, I'm going to go to Las Vegas and speak, and I'm not going anywhere. I'm not going to eat anything, you know, and no fertilizers, no pesticides, no herbicides, no McDonald's, no Burger King, no Walmart. And it just exudes from you what kind of a wonderful life that can be. And it's such an example to everyone. And I still appreciate it. And I. And I absolutely love that. To Sina's kids, you are like one of the most famous people they've ever met. You're the hot dog guy. And what a thing to be the hot dog guy to a bunch of kids. Like, they're so excited to meet you. Because they love your hot dogs so much.
- [58:01]
A
That's right.
- [58:01]
B
You know, there's just a lot that God offers us. So many wonderful opportunities in this world, and I'm. And I'm so thankful that you always highlight those and bring. Bring forward this incredible life that you can live that's beyond labels. People can check out the podcast. The book is fantastic. You're working on farm like a lunatic course. Ah, so good. That's what you're doing. Like, go out and make the things, you know, don't just sit around and mope and complain that our world is overrun with, you know, these. These big gurus. Do your own thing. And I'm so grateful. What an. What an honor to get another hour with you, Joel. Thank you so much for being here.
- [58:35]
A
Thank you, Jenny. It's been a delight. Thank you.