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The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 591: Reading Is an Act of Rebellion | Jack Carr, Cry Havoc
01:01:37
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- [00:01]
Jack Carr
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- [00:30]
Jenny Urch
Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Urch. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside. And I am beyond thrilled and honored that for the fourth time, Jack Carr is back. Welcome.
- [00:42]
Jack Carr
Thank you so much. I always look forward to our conversations. You always ask the best questions. I saw this on my schedule today and was so excited.
- [00:49]
Jenny Urch
Oh, you are coming in from Morocco. Tell us, what are you doing there?
- [00:52]
Jack Carr
Morocco. Yeah, yeah. So this is Morocco. It's about one in the afternoon. Just zipped back from set and as soon as we're done, I'll zip back to set filming True Believer, which is my second book. And we are finishing it up out here. Just a few more days to go, really. So it's a full on sprint to the end, trying to get everything that we need and then roll right into post production where you take all the pieces from the last seven months or so and start putting those together in edits and then start refining those going forward. So that's about another six month process or so and then should come out next summer. I don't know. I haven't heard exactly when, but I would suspect next summer, but I don't know.
- [01:28]
Jenny Urch
Wow, Jack, it is really unbelievably impressive. I was looking back at our other interviews and they're so close together, especially given the fact that these books that you write are so hefty. They're long, they're filled with so much information. It was like 2023, mid 2024, 2024 again, 2025. You just said you're going to go from here. As soon as this is done, you're going to go back to writing another book. Are you feeling stretched?
- [01:55]
Jack Carr
I'm feeling pressure from the publisher because this was supposed to come out in June, but this one in particular, it wasn't really the length of Cry Havoc. It was more having to write every character's perspective on events through the lens of 1968. So if they're in 1968, they're 70 years old, 60 years old, 40 years old, 25 years old, whatever it is. That character had only those number of years before 1968 to form their character and their perspective on any given event or situation. So that I'd never done before, because all my thrillers thus far have been contemporary, other than the nonfiction targeted Beirut. But all the contemporary thrillers, it's just much easier in your mind to be like, I'm writing this in 2023. It's coming out in 2024. And you just kind of know everyone's ages and where they're from. And so it's just kind of easier to step into their shoes and understand what they would have experienced in their life, because you're writing from a contemporary perspective. But when you go back to 1968, you have to think, okay, who would have experienced World War II? Who would have experienced the Depression? Who would have come of age in the 50s, and what did that mean for them? And also their perspective from their country of origin. So are they in the Soviet Union? Are they in the United States? Are there. Are they Vietnamese? Are they French? And so what were those experiences like? And you can have, okay, our GRU Soviet intelligence agent who experienced World War II in the Soviet Union, and then a French doctor in Paris who experienced World War II from a much different lens, and now they're both colliding in this story of. Of Cry Havoc. So they're bringing these different perspectives to the story. So that took a lot more time, energy, and effort than I anticipated, which is why the book's coming out in October, not June. But, yeah, there is pressure to get things in certainly on time. And I still look at myself. I'm not a business machine. Like, these are still. I feel like. And I don't want to sound too egotistical about it, whatever, but I feel like I'm. I mean, I'm an author, I'm a writer, and the story has to be the best it can possibly be. And that's just going to take the amount of time that it takes. And if it goes past the deadline, I'm sorry, but that's how it's going to be. It's not just going to rush to get it in and, like, finish it up. Oh, I'm at 115,000 words. They want it right now. I'm just going to get this thing. I'm just going to wrap it up. So never have I done that thus far. And you can tell by. I mean, I think people can tell, but there is pressure to just get it in. So it's one of those things you just have to kind of deal with. And you're the only person that can fend that off. There's no one else that can fend it off for you. The pressure is coming from everywhere. So you do feel that. But, you know, thus far, I've been able to just focus on getting the book done and making them the best that they can possibly be.
- [04:26]
Jenny Urch
I mean, it is remarkable. And the amount of research that went into this one. You had in the back the books, a list of books, and then you can go to your website and see more books. And it was like, here are a few of the ones.
- [04:38]
Jack Carr
So a lot long. I just did a video tour of my. I haven't posted it yet. Of my office and library. So I'll post that on socials here soon. So if anybody's curious about what that number of books physically looks like, you'll see it, because I have. In my library, I have two big full walls of books. And one side was supposed to be a bar. People give me whiskey and stuff at book signings and all that. So I just kind of arrange it up there. I never really get to partake because I'm always writing, but it's there. And I had to move a whole shelf, like into closets and like, just put all this whiskey and stuff in these closets and use that space for more books. And there's a whole, actually two rows of books on. On Vietnam. So people can see that if they want to check out what that looks like. But this was a lot of research went into this because once again, I have to tell these stories, have perspectives told through different characters eyes. And I can go back to these books that people have written. I can go to their autobiographies, I can go to biographies. I can go to books from a French perspective, from a Vietnamese perspective. So that was a lot. And I just wanted to make sure that I did the most thorough job possible. So that meant surrounding myself with all these books. Maps from 1968. I got a dictionary from 1969 that I could use, looking for one from 1968. And they didn't have the exact edition that I wanted. So it's 1969. I figured that was close enough because they were probably writing it or adapting, morphing it a little bit, editing it in 68. So I have an old big dictionary from 1969 that I could go through to look up how terms were defined back then. So I really wanted to immerse myself in 1968 culture. So if someone read this book, specifically the guys that went to Vietnam, I wanted to honor them, but also people who just lived through the 60s. I wanted to try to really capture what that felt like. So if they read it, they could say at least that they'll understand that I put in the effort to try to capture the essence and the feel of 1968, even if there's some mistakes in there inadvertently. I just wanted them to know that I put in the effort to try to get it right. I didn't just want to write a contemporary thriller, say 1968, throw a little Credence Clearwater Revival in the background and call it a day. So I did not do that. And I put the work and the effort in to make the best book I could.
- [06:44]
Jenny Urch
The effort is remarkable. The list of books is so unbelievably long. This is something that is a theme in all of your books. They make you. They. They inspire you to read more. And for me, this is not a genre. We've talked about this before, a genre that I maybe naturally would have picked up. But more than any other books that I've read, Jack, your books have expanded me. And, you know, for me, they're a little bit of a harder read because they don't have as much of the background knowledge. So I'm not gonna know what is the rank of a lieutenant colonel. I remember when I read your first book, which. The first book I read of yours is Only the Dead. And this theme of only the dead will see the end of war is in a lot of these books, too, about the sort of war machine. And these are concepts and philosophies that I hadn't thought too much about, maybe not at all. So at the first book I read of yours, I remember I had to ask my husband so many questions. It was like every couple pages, I was like, what's this? What's that? But I'm on now your fourth book, which is this one that's coming out, Cry Havoc, which is incredible. This is James's dad. There's so much in here about the fathers and the grandfathers and that legacy that comes down. And I felt like I had a lot better understanding going into this one. So now I have a lot more background knowledge. They have really expanded me. And additionally, Jack, I think with what's going on in the world, I have different inputs now because of the books I've read of yours. They're fun to read. They're phenomenally written. Also, I am expanded. I know more. So when people talk about, for example, AI and they're like, well, we should stop it you know, just put a stop on it. You're like, okay, I see one perspective. But I'm like, if you've read Jack's books, then you would know about the quantum computer, Alice, and you would have a different thought about, you know, what do we need to be doing to keep our country safe? So it is remarkable that you're able to write these thrillers that inspire people to read more and expand their knowledge of what's going on in the world.
- [08:42]
Jack Carr
Thank you. Thank you. I mean, that's a. That's a huge part of it too. Reading and books form the foundation for my entire life. And it was into the SEAL teams or into what I'm doing now. Reading and books are fundamental to all of it. So I think now reading is almost a. It's almost an act of rebellion to, to pull out a book instead of your phone. And I just think people's lives would be so much richer if they spent more time in the pages of a book rather than scrolling on the phone. And I think certainly the country would be as well. Especially those formative years. Those formative years, like let's say for me, age, let's say 8 to 18, somewhere in there, 10 to 20, somewhere in there, you know, depending on who you are, where you live and all those sorts of things. Years are very formative. And I'm so lucky that I was reading so much during those years and really being educated in the art of storytelling. Although unbeknownst to me, that was happening. I was just enjoying all these books, but I had essentially classes from the masters through pure enjoyment by reading Tom Clancy and Nelson DeMille and A.J. quinnell and J.C. pollock and Mark golden and, and Louis Lamour and David Morrell and Stephen Hunter and all these guys who are just incredible. And then reading the older books, those are the contemporary thrillers I was reading during those years, but then going back and reading some of the ones that my parents had on the shelves like the. The Robert Ludlums and the Ken Folletts and the Jean Le Carreys and the Inflemings and, and all of those books as well. So I got this, this education in the art of storytelling even though I was just enjoying the stories from a fan perspective. Same things with movies and television. I wasn't distracted by a phone or an app or my behaviors and thoughts weren't being manipulated by something I had with me all the time. Instead, I was being influenced by popular culture, certainly, but I had to wait till 7:15 on a Friday or Saturday if My dad was free to take me to the, the new Sylvester Stallone movie or Arnold Schwarzenegger movie or Chuck Horse movie or whatever it was. Or if I'm waiting to watch Magnum or, or Simon and Simon or the A Team or Knight Rider or whatever I'm watching in the 80s, I have to wait till 8 o', clock, 9 o', clock, 10 o'. Clock. It's not instantly available. And then those things. What am I being influenced by from those shows? Well, I'm seeing strong protagonists. I'm seeing people for the most part who are very capable, who are protectors, who are essentially sentinels, guardians in all of those. And a lot of them had backgrounds in Vietnam, backgrounds in the SEALs or Army Special Forces or Marine Recon, snipers or CIA paramilitary. And now they're in contemporary TV shows and movies, using those skills to solve contemporary problems in the mid-80s. So all of that was certainly influencing me, but it wasn't the kind of influence that I think we get today or Those kids, age 8 to 20, let's say, that are carrying around their pockets that are being deliberately manipulated by an algorithm to keep them enraged, to keep them looking at a screen rather than picking up a book. And when you pick up a book, even thrillers, fiction, you see the world through other people's eyes. Let's say you're reading nonfiction. Yeah, you can learn a ton from nonfiction. People should completely read nonfiction. But the people who say I only read nonfiction, kind of, you know, some people are a little snooty like that. What they miss, I think what they're failing to grasp is that through fiction, in this case thrillers, you're seeing a different perspective on the world through someone else's eyes, which really else build empathy and compassion in you as a person. Something that is completely missing when you're scrolling through an X feed or Instagram, whatever you're, whatever you're scrolling through and being, being fed. And so that's a different type of, of thought. And it really impacts you, especially at those ages. It can really kind of imprint on your soul what it feels like to experience something difficult through someone else's eyes. Because now that comes, you didn't have to experience it, but you read it through this someone else's eyes. And that has now become part of your experience, which allows you to then in relative terms, when you either fail a math test or lose a loved one, all of these things become now part of your experience, but allow you to deal with these things as you move forward. And reading certainly is Beneficial to all of that, to moving through life, to getting up when you're knocked down, because you can put things in relative terms. But really, more than anything else, it's that compassion and empathy that comes from experiencing the world through someone else's eyes, which is completely missing from social media today. And that's why I'm so sad for the kids that aren't reading that are just scrolling. And it's just. It breaks my heart.
- [12:49]
Jenny Urch
Yeah. And these stories. And even when in Targeted Beirut, which is nonfiction, it's told through the lens of stories, people's stories. And so then you remember it better. You're more invested. I think if you were wanting to learn different concepts about life and war and humanity and geography and history and all of these things, it's so much easier to learn them through a story because you're more invested in. And like I said, I. I am a different person from having read these books. I read based off of one of your books. And I read Unrestricted Warfare, which I. No one has read. I talk about it all the time. I'm like, well, have you read Unrestricted Warfare where we're all soldiers, like, the wars have changed, you know? And I am able to step into conversations that I would have known nothing about. And I feel like my. My knowledge scratches the surface. But I really am a different person from having read these books. So the newest one is called Cry Havoc. And what I don't understand, because I will get other books based off you. Off of the books you recommend. So, like, I've got. I got Active War, I got Good Whispers in the Tall Grass, I got. And, you know, and I go into these. There's one called the Years of Autumn.
- [13:54]
Jack Carr
Cheers of Autumn.
- [13:55]
Jenny Urch
I flip these open and these are hefty books, Jack. It's one thing to say. Okay, I read these couple articles to prepare for this. You know, when you talk about Cry Havoc, you say it is the most. And you weren't expecting it. You said that you thought you had. You know, you're like, I thought I had a solid foundation of knowledge on the American experience in Vietnam. So the book is called Cry Havoc, and it's about these special teams called. Do people say sog, macv.
- [14:22]
Jack Carr
Sog. And. And then you can abbreviate it to sog.
- [14:25]
Jenny Urch
Okay. Macv. Sog, which stands for Studies and Observations Group, which is not. It's not very descriptive at all, and it just sounds kind of lame. But there are these Special Forces groups during Vietnam. And the background knowledge here, when you say, you Thought, you know, you had a good foundation, and then you start your research and you realize you've just scratched the surface. How do you read these? Books are so. They're. It's like small print. I'm like, oh, this. I'll probably be able to read this in a half hour, you know, or. And then you're like, no, the amount of reading. Do you keep books with you? Do you not watch much tv?
- [15:04]
Jack Carr
No, I don't spend much time doing anything else but writing. When I'm writing, I may have to do some of the business side of the house. So it's some of that, and then it's family and it's writing and it's research. And in this case, it was conversations with people who had written those books like you have. I got to talk to a lot of them on my podcast, and then I got to follow up with them on text. If I had a question about something that I didn't quite understand right. Thought I knew. And then I got to that part of the story. I'm like, oh, wait a second, I have a question about this. And then I could just text or email or call. And so I got to talk to those guys just to make sure that I honored them through the story by getting the details right. So people that really experienced that wouldn't be drawn out of a fictional story because of a detail that I. That I got wrong. So. So that it took a lot more time, energy. So I was surrounded by books. They were everywhere. And maps of Vietnam, like I said, from. From back then, because you wanted them from the 60s, even from the 50s, when you're talking about the French experience and you're trying to get the names of. Of towns right. Because now contemporary. From looking at it today, I'm looking something up. Well, after 1975, a lot of the names of streets changed. What buildings were used for. Those changed after the fall of Saigon. So I have to go back, and I can't just, like, look up today and like, oh, put a street name in there. Or put a building name in there. Oh, wait a second. I have to go back to 1968. What was the name of that street then? And there's still a lot of French influence back then, of course. So. So, yeah, being surrounded by those books, at least I could reach for them. It wasn't a Google search for anything. It was like it was a reaching for a book. Or like, I remember yellow sticky notes all over the place in these. In these books. Because a lot of times I'm like, oh, I read that and, and at first I was like, I remember reading that and I look at this pile of books, I'm like, oh, which was it that I read that in? And I sometimes I thought that I knew and I grabbed it and would just spend hours going through. And then that's not this one. What's this one? So I would mark all things that I thought that I would, I would need going forward with yellow stickies and a little note that I can just quickly kind of look through like a file folder almost by turning the book sideways and just looking. So, so this one. Yeah, this one took quite a bit of effort, much more than, and I thought I put a lot of research effort into the other book, specifically, let's say Only the Dead. I have a couple of chapters, Finance and my, my brain is not a finance type of a brain. But I wanted someone who would spend their life on Wall street to read it and know that I put in that effort. So I thought that took a lot of time. I thought I was still recovering from writing those chapters. And then this one really put that research to shame. Same thing with like AI Quantum computing. That's not something that's just a part of my wheelhouse, naturally. And there's, there's been a few, few others. Biological warfare in the, my, in the Devil's hand. I didn't know anything about that. So I found, felt like I did a lot of research for those, but really it was nothing compared to the amount of research that I did for this. And this is the one that I thought I was prepared for. So it's interesting how that kind of happens in life sometimes. I, I, I knew I wasn't prepared to write a chapter on finance. I was going to have to do a lot of work on that. This I was like, I'm prepared to write a book on 1968, Vietnam. I can't imagine someone being more prepared. That's what I thought in my head anyway, both from the, the, the academic study of warfare on that side, but then also the popular culture influence and then being able to kind of morph all those too for the story. And no, I, this one took so much more effort than any of the others, but, but I'm very excited for it and really proud of how it came out.
- [18:14]
Jenny Urch
It is so extensive. It is unbelievable and very, it inspires. It's so inspiring. You know, this guy, most people haven't read hardly any books. They talk about, you know, the high schoolers have maybe read no books, zero books. And I mean this. The list of books is so extensive and people can find it on your website. Official Jack Carr. You know, healing takes courage, but it also takes the right support. And sometimes it even takes a puppy. Capstone Wellness is unlike anything I've ever seen. For over 24 years, Capstone has helped thousands of families by combining faith, clinical excellence, and some truly creative approaches to healing. At Capstone Treatment center, teen boys and young men struggling with trauma, mental health or addiction are given something extraordinary, a Labrador retriever puppy on admission. That puppy stays with them through the program and goes home with them when they graduate. It's not just a dog, it's a partner in responsibility, in attachment, and in bringing families back together. And if residential care isn't what you're looking for, vine and Roots Intensives offer individuals, couples and families months of world class counseling packed into just a few concentrated days. It's designed to trace hurt back to the roots and begin real healing. Healing is possible. Start your journey today@capstonewellness.com 1000 hours. That's capstonewellness.com 1000hours. You know that moment when your kids walk in the door from playing outside and they're acting like they haven't eaten in three days. Each one wants something different and you're standing there thinking, do I look like a short order cook? Yeah, that was my life until I found Nurture Life. This podcast is sponsored by nurture life. It's 2025, but are you still feeding your kids like it's 2005? Nature Life is a meal delivery service that makes fresh, fully cooked meals and snacks your kids actually want to eat. We're talking nutritious, balanced meals for kids ages 10 months to 10 years old. Ready in just a minute. What I love is that Nurture Life manages to sneak in the veggies while still serving all the classics, Mac and cheese, spaghetti and meatballs, even finger foods for toddlers. Here's how it works. You pick from over 50 meals and snacks. Nurture Life cooks them fresh every week and they show up right at your door in refrigerated packaging. It's allergy friendly, dietitian designed and genuinely delicious. My kids adore it and I love that the stress of mealtime has disappeared. Head to NurtureLife.com 1000hours55 and use code 1000hours55 for 55 off your first order plus free shipping. That's right, 55 off plus free shipping. Once again, that's NurtureLife.com1000hours55 and make sure you use my promo code 1000hours55. Even if you aren't a parent with young kids, you might have parent friends who struggle with mealtime. Make sure to share our code so our show gets the credit. Remember, put your little ones first with healthy meals from Nurture Life. Abercrombie Kids knows how to make outfitting easy. Mix and Match sets are their ultimate outfit hack for fall. Their sweatshirts and sweatpants are super cozy and they always have the cutest colors and patterns. Shop fall's easiest outfit at Abercrombie Kids in the app, online and in stores. So the story of this SOG studies and observations group to you is that I don't want to sound flippant, and so I don't know if this wording is good. To me, it's like almost like a side story. This is a special group, right, that they're going in. Some of these people are still missing in action. They don't know where they are. There's about 600 of them, less than 600 over these eight years that are going basically into this secret war. Is that something that you already knew about?
- [21:56]
Jack Carr
Oh, yeah.
- [21:57]
Jenny Urch
Or what inspired you to pick that as your focus?
- [22:01]
Jack Carr
Yeah, so something I've known about for a long time, since I was a little kid, really. There were these things called Search of Fortune magazine was big back when, in the 80s, when I was a kid, during those formative years. Gung Ho magazine, these two catalogs, one called US Cavalry, another one called Brigade Quartermaster. And they'd have knives in there that paid tribute to this group called MACV sog. And like, what is this? And so I was researching things all the time. My mom was a librarian, so I was well aware of MACV SOG early on. There weren't that many books and TV shows and movies that mentioned them back in the 80s. But as we get into the 90s, there are more and more that. That mention them. And then in the 2000s, more and more. And then now today, all these years later, a lot more of these guys are folks feeling are. Are more comfortable telling their story and realizing that there are some lessons I think from. From back then in the 60s that that deserve to be told isn't the right wording. It's more. It's more because it's more cathartic. For most of the people that I talk to, they're putting these stories out there because there are lessons. Enough time has passed where they don't feel like they're capitalizing on it in their 70s and 80s and so I think that has made them more apt to, to tell some of these stories which is why we're seeing more of them now I think. So it's. But I do, I was aware of them and I chose them because I didn't want to stay so SEAL centric. So my protagonist's father is a SEAL in Vietnam. My protagonist in the contemporary thrillers is a seal. And that was already established from the first book. But I didn't want to stay so SEAL centric. I wanted to explore what was primarily an army unit and really dive in there and to kind of honor those guys, bring some multi service lens to the stories. So I'm not just solely focused on seals. And plus they were going into Cambodia, to Laos, to North Vietnam in this secret war and the book the Natural, the story, they needed to be able to go into these denied areas where if they disappeared it was almost, they were there illegally. They were essentially to be classified as spies. And that gave the Soviet Union in the story anyway almost a legal basis for being able to deal with them as a spy back in the 60s. So, so it all played into the, to the story about as well as anything could very naturally.
- [24:21]
Jenny Urch
So I could see how you would have thought you were completely prepared. I mean you've been reading about this literally since the 80s. I mean it's been decades. That's so interesting. Then when you come to write it and you're like wait a minute, you got stacks and stacks and stacks and stacks of books. Do you think that most people would know about MCV sog?
- [24:39]
Jack Carr
A lot of people that are in my circles, military circles for sure, special operations circles, 100% so. But maybe there's some people out there in the public that don't because my normal are people that, that know about MACV sog but perhaps there are those out there who do not. And so yeah, this is another way to educate at the same time. And I remember reading those books that I read growing up and thinking oh, Tom Clancy or David Morrell or Nelson DeMille surely did all this research and about the CIA or whatever they're writing about. And for me that inspired me to read more. And I could always figure out, I shouldn't say always, for the most part I could always tell what they were talking about through context. So I didn't have to just spend time constantly at a dictionary or thesaurus or World Book Encyclopedia or whatever it was back then. I would understand by context what was happening. So it didn't pull you out of the story, but it Also reinforced, like, oh, I should know more about these things so that I don't have to understand through context. I will understand just because I understand the word or the timeline, whatever it is, the history. And so I think that was inspiring as well. Just to stay a reader, always educate. I stay a student, always a student at Harold Student of Warfare. I'm a student of, of history. I'm a student of my current profession as a writer. So I always want to get. Get better, always improve. And. And reading was certainly a way to do that then, and that continues to be the case today.
- [25:56]
Jenny Urch
Yeah, that's exactly how I feel reading your books. It is incredible how you've been able to emulate those heroes of yours and to be. Because that's what I say. I read the book and I'm like, I should know more about that. I. I didn't know about MACV SAG at all. I'm learning about first time than one of the most audacious operations of the Vietnam Wars. And then, you know, when you talk about how many of them were wounded, how many of them didn't come home, and then you say, Vietnam was a watershed moment in special operations history. Navy Seals, Army Special Forces soldiers, and Marine Corps snipers would develop the tactics, techniques and procedures upon which the next generation would build when the torch was passed in the aftermath of September 11th. So can we talk about then? I felt this theme of the next generation was so strong in this book in combination really with major changes. It's an interesting thing because you really get the voice of Tom Reese. So this is James father. So this one is. This is his story. This is Tom's story, James father. And they have, you know, these similar things where their, their mind, these little snippets of knowledge. Like in both, it's like, gotta get up, gotta move, gotta keep moving. You know, just do the next thing. I love how you do that in the books. Like, you get that little bit of what is actually going on in their brain. And of course, it's like, well, my father taught me this. Or there's a little line in this one where he's like, someday I want to teach this lesson to my kids. But there is the. It's juxtaposed with the fact that the world has changed so much. There's so much rapid change, even the little things, as someday I hope I would have a radio, a small radio, so I could communicate. You're like, oh, you know, looking ahead. And the media is changed dramatically. That was a big thing that you talked about in this one. So how does a father prepare a child for a different war, a different world? You know, you read something like unrestricted warfare based off of your books. You know, it's not based off of your books. Inspired by reading your books, you. I'm inspired by reading your books to read this unrestricted warfare. And it says like, war has totally changed. So in your father, it's like, how do you. What do you pass on that will be lasting and how do you know what that would be?
- [28:01]
Jack Carr
Yeah, I think you're trying to pass on these lessons of the past so you know that your son or a future generation is going to learn lessons. They're going to learn a lot of lessons the hard way. But you can minimize that by educating them through story. I mean, that's where stories came from, essentially, around the campfire thousands of years ago, telling stories of the hunt and of warfare so that you could pass on those lessons so that the tribe could continue to protect itself, defend itself, put food on the table, that sort of thing. And we all have ancestors that were good at those two things or we would not be here today. So those were passed on through story. But really, I think it's just sharing the lessons of your experience with your child so that hopefully, yeah, they're taking those lessons on, but they're also learning to take lessons from their own life and then apply those lessons going forward as wisdom. So you're not relearning the same thing over and over again. You can. Yeah, you're going to make mistakes along the way. You're going to have failures and you're going to get knocked down. That's going to be true for everyone. But you don't do the same mistakes as someone did in the past because you can educate. You'll make new mistakes, but you can. You can educate yourself and mitigate some of these, and that helps you go forward so you're not just making the same mistake as other people have, either a generation prior or even farther back than that. So I think it's just about sharing those lessons when you have that opportunity, because your experience eventually turns into wisdom as you get over older, I think, and you can frame it as such when you pass those lessons along. You might draw a lesson at age 50 that you wouldn't have really gleaned at age 25 when you made that mistake. But now, now you're looking back on it with the benefit of hindsight, you can pass that lesson on to someone else that hopefully makes. Makes their life either a little Richer or allows them to, to be just a better person, a better citizen, a better husband, a better father, whatever that that may be. So it's all about passing on those lessons in an appropriate way so that we can continue to move forward and not stagnate.
- [29:51]
Jenny Urch
Yeah. And then the lessons, they have to adapt because everything has changed. And even there's a sentence that says. And this is from Tom, this is talking about his dad. So I love that there. This multi generational legacy in here. So Thomas is Reese's dad. He says did dad. Talking about his dad. So this is Jane's grandfather. Did dad ever feel like this? Tommy gun in hand, battling in World War II, the Japanese in World War II. Dad didn't have claymores. So you're seeing that there are commonalities, but then there's also differences based off of changes in technology and changes in media. And I think you really highlight the wisdom. There's different wisdom for I would imagine when you're in the field and you even had a sentence like those who are closest to war are not as big fans of war because. And I probably really butchered that.
- [30:38]
Jack Carr
Good. That's good.
- [30:39]
Jenny Urch
But that concept in. When you talk about, in all the books that those who are furthest away in the air conditioned office, you talk about how our country doesn't know what to do without wars. This theme of there is a different perspective and outlook from those who are losing their friends in Beirut, you know, their brothers, their, their comrades. So. So there are deep lessons and then there are things that change due to the changes in our world. And I think all the more reason that you have to pass things on. Like there was one with. When Tom says you can't control the wind, but you can control the cut of your sail, he says if he ever has kids, he's going to pass that bit of wisdom along. So then you were talking about how Thomas Reese. So this is the grandfather. It's Thomas, Tom James. Thomas Reese really likes to play cards.
- [31:24]
Jack Carr
Cards.
- [31:25]
Jenny Urch
And that's something that gets passed along. So they're battling their demons, playing cards. They're going to sit around and that's maybe where they're going to open up a little bit more. Learning poker was as much of a survival skill as anything taught at Camp X. My dad wasn't big on explanations, though. He lit up at the card table. Actually this is pretty interesting. And then they talked about. They only spoke German and French at the card table. It's such a small thing. But you talk about Jack, how and everybody knows this. You know, that everyone has, or most people have a family member. They're like, yeah, my. My grandfather fought in that war. My dad fought in this. They don't really talk about it. They don't tell me about it. And this is in this book, too, right, Where Tom is learning things from a friend, one of his dad's friends. You know, I. I knew you as a baby, so when you. This is what I'm curious about. When you interview people for your podcast, Danger Close, is it hard to get people to open up?
- [32:17]
Jack Carr
Up sometimes? It certainly depends on the guest. And I don't. If someone doesn't want to open up on something, I don't push. That's. That's not me. It's other. Other podcasts will do that. And, you know, they'll probably be much more successful than I am on a podcast. I'm just too. It's like I have a social awareness. I think that just doesn't lend itself to me trying to push too hard if I get a sense that, that someone's uncomfortable with something. And that's, you know, I'm not a. I'm not a journalist. I'm not going in to try to get the story and pull something out of them. And I'm not Oprah trying to make somebody cry, show or whatever. So I'm just trying to have a conversation. So, yeah, I have found that sometimes it's hard to do that, but in the case of these three characters, so three generations you're talking about, I need to differentiate themselves. I just can't have Tom Reese being James Reese in 1968. That's something I wanted to certainly avoid. I've set it up that way over the course of my previous seven novels. And I've talked about the grandfather before as well, but in this one, I just wanted to make sure that I was differentiating these characters. So James Reese is not that great with the languages. I wanted to make his father. They want to differentiate him from his father. And so his father is good with the languages. And why? Well, because his dad came back from World War II and didn't talk about the war. Didn't really pass those lessons on. Like, a lot of those guys who came back, they got to work, a lot of them did the GI Bill and then built the country into what it is today, giving us all these great, amazing options and opportunities because of their sacrifice and their hard work when they got home. And I wanted his dad to. To be a kind of exemplify that generation. So he got Home didn't whine about the war, didn't complain about the war, didn't really pass on. It was a time when kids were meant to be seen, not heard type of a thing with that generation as. So I wanted to make sure I. I hit that. But I did want him to pass some things along and wanted one of him. And that's the language at the car table and cards. Why? Because in World War II, guess what? They don't have iPhones. And what. What are they doing there is they're going ships across the Atlantic and the Pacific or between missions. Well, they can carry a pack of cards and they can play poker. And that's what these guys did. So I wanted him to pass something onto his son, but I didn't want to be the exact same things that Tom Reese passes to James. So from like the 60s Vietnam generation to the. The 911 generation, I wanted something different. And that was this. This. I don't know if it was a love of poker, but it's. It's this memory that Tom Reese has of him and his parents playing poker together. And through that he's getting these different lessons. And so I wanted to differentiate these characters. And that was one way to do it.
- [34:41]
Jenny Urch
I really like that because it just goes to show that when you go through something that is so. I mean, I can't even imagine what these men and women have gone through that you almost. You have to have time, you have to have space. There has to be breath there. There has to be an expansive time to start to work through those things. And that doesn't necessarily exist anymore, like you just said, because of the iPhone. You talk about how. So this is the grandpa. He lit up at the card table. Great memories of playing with him and my mom. Fire keeping us warm on a cold winter night. And it's such kind. It seems like such a small thing, Jack, but. But really to have that time where then you can start to, I guess, process. Process the things that you've been through, process them with other people. It just shows the loss of. And very much portrays. That's kind of needed. You know, it. It would seem like playing poker, having a deck of cards with you. We keep decks of cards with us and I have them in my purse. It would seem like, oh, that's a small thing. It doesn't really matter. But you see the power of that. That in that wisdom, in that connection, the connection. So I love this sentence. Thomas Reese was a survivor. He was passing on what lessons he could over cards. Now at a different table in a new war. All their unique qualities were swimming through his brain. So passing it on through those moments of downtime and you have to have them. If all of those guys would have just gone to their iPhones, I don't think those lessons even necessarily solidify. The stories aren't told, so it's just such an important piece. When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans, send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom 60th and never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn more@WhatsApp.com this episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast Smart move being financially savvy Smart move. Another smart move having State Farm help you create a competitive price when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling. Just another way to save with a personal price plan like a good neighborhood, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. Finally, in your wellness era, then you know gut health is gut wealth. And with 20 years of science behind it, Activia can help keep those good gut vibes going. Deliciously smooth and creamy Activia probiotic yogurts and dailies have billions of live and active protein probiotics and help support gut health. While you go about your day. Your gut is where it all begins. So start with Activia. Enjoying Activia twice a day for two weeks as part of a balanced diet and healthy lifestyle can help reduce the frequency of minor digestive discomfort. I really liked Jack. The thought like I didn't know this. I'm always like, I'm gonna get on these podcasts and sound like such a moron. Okay, I guess if I would. I didn't know this. I didn't know this, this, this war. So I love this part about how fathers and grandfathers, there's so much similarity, but there's also these, these major differences. This war is not like our fathers. It's different. NVA wears uniforms, but the VC don't. In World War II, those guys were there until they were wounded, died or won. But in Vietnam and I learned about this. I read Kristen Hannah's book the women this, the rotation through. You're here for this amount of time and then you rotate through, through. So in this book Cry Havoc, we rotated, we are rotated through the year, making no real progress. That is a really major difference, Jack, that when you were sent In World War II, you're just sent. What does that change?
- [38:40]
Jack Carr
I think it changes almost everything. And same thing with the, with the gwad Iraq and Afghanistan, same thing. People are rotating through a year, some six months, but let's say say six months to a year to 14 months. You're rotating through these places and then you're doing turnover for a week or two weeks with someone else who's coming in. And now they're stepping in with a new perspective. And sometimes, yes, you have to do that. And mostly at the strategic level. Meaning it took George Marshall, a lot of generals until he got to Patton and Eisenhower and these guys, the names that we all remember from the Pacific and the European theaters, they didn't all start in those positions, but they, some people were there ahead of them and they didn't measure up. They. He typically gives somebody a second chance but not a third. And so George Marshall, people forget about him. They know the Marshall Plan from Europe, rebuilding Europe, but really we wouldn't have even gotten to that had it not been for George Marshall before and during World War II. Putting the right people in the right places because someone didn't measure up, couldn't do it. And so he would move them aside, put someone else in. But you're over there essentially at the tactical level and operational levels. You're in Europe or in the Pacific until you win. Very different Vietnam, very different in Iraq and Afghanistan. So I saw essentially perpetuates the war because you're on a timeline, you know you're going home in six months. Just get through this. And if you're a leader and a careerist, you are like, I just got to get through this year and not have any big mess ups. That's what I'm doing. And not everybody, I'm generalizing here, of course, but when you have a, let's say not even a majority, let's just give it the benefit of the doubt that it's even less than 50%, let's say, which it's probably not, but let's say it is still that cycle perpetuates this war and keeps you there, keeps you in Iraq, keeps you in Afghanistan year after year after year. Unless if you. And the difference would be flooding one of those places and guess what? Guess who's not coming home until this thing is won. Guess what? You 82nd Airborne, you 101st Airborne, you range a regiment, U seals, you delta, you two, seven cav you and boom, boom. That's different than. I gotta get through this. Six months, get my guys home, keep many people alive as I possibly can, be the best leader I possibly can. But guess what? I need to. We'll be out of here in six months or a year or whatever. I'll be back again in another year or two years or whatever. So it's very different than sending people downrange and replacing leadership that doesn't measure up, but keeping them there until the fight is won. Very, very different mindsets.
- [41:04]
Jenny Urch
Wow. A lot has changed. Changed. This is not that long ago and a lot has changed. And you, you talk about, I mean, a lot about the closer you are to the war, the less politics matter. It was probably that way for our fathers, too. American identity is tied to this war. It's not politicians who are going to end the war, because war in the latter half of the 20th century was a machine, an ecosystem of politicians, defense companies and lobbyists all in on the racket and these themes. I look back through my old notes and I was like, there it is again. There it is again. So there's these major differences between the father and the son, the grandfather, the father, the son, one of the huge ones. Now, obviously you've written the book with the A.I. you know, inserting A.I. into warfare, which was fascinating. Everyone should read. I mean, these books, you can listen to them too, on audiobook. You say now a day goes by that you don't get a message about the audiobook. They're phenomenal. My husband has listened to all of them on audiobook. So that's an option. And the person who reads them and is so talented. So that's an option. Yes. And you're going to learn. You're going to learn so much. And the stories are fantastic. Here's a big change. Media, Media is a huge change. And I love you. I mean, you're just really. It's the tip of the iceberg in this one where you're, you're starting to highlight those changes and you say this is the first. So Vietnam is the first US war to really be televised. And there's all of this conversation about what the pressure guess will turn this into. The newspapers are nothing compared to the television coverage. Something now could be a military catastrophe, but a psychological victory. And then you can see how that's so morphed into today where media has changed so much more since then with the television now it's like everyone is Their own media. Basically, everyone's going to throw up their own opinion about this. It's. It's so confusing. And people are experts, Jack. There's people like you who are like, I've been in these combat situations and I know what a bullet hole looks like and the size of this, and I'm a hunter. And. And so then you have this mixing bowl. It, like, went from hardly any coverage to media coverage, which is very controlled. And you see that throughout the book now to this mixing bowl of billions of people's opinions and thoughts and their videos and the things that they have. Have. How does media affect things? This is such a big question. How does media affect war? That's a stupid question because it's so big. I don't know. What do you think about that? Or what could you take from there? I don't know.
- [43:33]
Jack Carr
Yeah, I mean, you look at these different. Let's just take some, some modern history from the 1860s onward, essentially, and our Civil War, where we get some photographs now. And then you move into World War I and then you move into World War II, where you're going to a movie theater. Theater to, to watch the news at the beginning of a film for your dime or whatever it cost back then. But you're getting a newsreel by a press that also essentially wants to win this war. You don't get the sense that they want to perpetuate those. When you watch those old newsreels, you certainly don't get that. So you had a newspaper you had to wait for, would come in the morning, maybe pick it up at your front door or on the way to work, if you're walking to work with your briefcase or whatever, maybe you bring it home in the afternoon and the, you know, the older kids can. Can read it and your spouse can read it, and that's sort of a thing. But that was, that was World War II type time frame. You weren't constantly bombarded by this, but you knew that you were part of it. You knew that your, your, Your sons. Your. Their friends. Friends. Sons were overseas and they were in the Pacific and they were in Europe. And you open that newspaper and see, oh, Battle of the Bulge, oh, Iwo Jima. And then. But you're reading that at essentially your own pace, realizing that, hey, you're part of this. What can I do to help that person that I know who is downrange? Or I can take the rubber from my tires and donate that to the war effort. If I'm on the west coast or the east coast at night, I'm going to make sure that there's no light escaping from my house. Like these are things that we're all doing as citizens because we're all part of this. And then it morphs a bit as we get, as we move forward and we get into, certainly into Vietnam and we get the first televised war every single night. And this is how it differentiates from today. So now we're getting it every night. Let's say it's six o'.
- [45:14]
Jenny Urch
Clock.
- [45:14]
Jack Carr
So you're getting it for 30 minutes. You're seeing people in the jungle firing and you're starting to ask questions. Wait, why are we, what are we doing over there? Because it's not explained to you in a newspaper or you're not waiting till a Saturday matinee to get it fed to you. And now there's more people asking questions. But now the media is essentially its own industry and they have vested interests or certain reporters have vested interests and more power, I think, because they can control now more of the narrative than was controllable in World War II. And I talk about that in the book, especially when it comes to the Tet Offensive and the things that were leading up to the Tet Offensive. I mean there were reporters on there that were popular enough to be able to sway segments of the population based on essentially their opinion or their analysis, which might be for a reason. Whatever that reason may be, maybe it's just because some of them like to have that power, realized that they had this in their opinion, could, could definitely not be advantageous to that soldier, sailor, airman, Marine on the ground in Vietnam. And then we get to get later on into say the first Gulf War. And now we have 24 hour news. But you still have to turn it on. You still have to turn on CNN in the early 90s. And you have to sit there for a certain amount of time and watch something. It's not just coming to you at 6 to 6:30. It's 247 now. And then we get more of those stations. Now you have some options, but they're all still 24 7. But they're on TV. And then we get the Internet. Okay, now I can read something if I want to read someone's analysis of it. Now my magazines that I used to read, Time and Newsweek are now available to me on my computer at work. I don't have to pick up a magazine. And then few years later we get an iPhone where now it's carried around with me and I can both see video and I can read things pretty much anytime that I want. And then we get a little bit past that. And now instead of me looking for these things, now it's getting fed to me by this machine and an algorithm constantly in my pocket. And through this through for companies that are obviously for profit but that see that the way to make those profits is by feeding you certain things. And they know what those things are because they're seeing everything that you look at for how long and what you're clicking on. And they realize they can manipulate thoughts and behaviors that keep you attached to this thing. Which now interestingly enough, takes you so far away from what we had in the 40s. We had watch the newsreel, get to think about it. Yeah, there's probably, there's manipulation going on there as well. But you have time to reflect on that as a person and as a citizen. There's no reflection going on today for the most part. Generally speaking. It's a constant bombardment from through a device that you have with you 247 from a company that has a vested interest in you not doing any deep thinking on these targets and go on these topics and going right to the next one. So media continues to evolve and now of course with bots and everything else, you can have foreign entities, you can have super empowered individuals, terrorist organizations, whatever, whatever it is, foreign intelligence services, other private companies manipulate you through the algorithm that they understand with made up people that look real. Now we used to be able to tell a bot 10 years ago. Now it is next to impossible to tell a real person from a fake one. Had someone on my podcast that created a million bots. Thoughts. Nobody knows that they're not real people. Yeah, it's incredible. No one knows. And he just did it as an experiment. It wasn't paid for by anybody. Just want to see if he could do it and he did it. And he has a book out called the Warrior's Garden all about this. So we got to discuss that on the podcast. So now you're being manipulated by a single person who looks like a million people. And just think that's one person doing an experiment. Think about a foreign intelligence service. Think about a gigantic company. Anyone who wants to manipulate your thoughts and behaviors. So that was a very quick 1860s to 2025 overview of the media landscape. And I'm sure I've missed a few things along the way there. But the first thing I think to do is is realize that these devices are manipulation devices that are manipulating your thoughts and behaviors. So if you want to Be a free person, which is the opposite of what we're told that social media and these phones were supposed to do, is supposed to be very freeing, very connecting. Now the truth is out there. Well, the opposite has happened. Happened. So putting those things away and really reflecting on events, looking at history and. And forming own opinions based off history and study and deep thought and reflection, I think that's. That is the wise way ahead. Will we take it? I doubt it. So I try to remain hopeful, but I. At the end of the day, when I think about it, these companies are so, so powerful, and you are one singular person and you have the manipulation device attached to you, and now you need it for work in many cases. So it's. It's a. We're in a tough spot, but you're doing it.
- [49:59]
Jenny Urch
You're doing it. You're a dad. You've got kids.
- [50:02]
Jack Carr
Doing my best.
- [50:03]
Jenny Urch
You are in Morocco and you are reading so many. You're in Morocco taping this show. And then you're also reading the. The book list is so long, you're shocked. You're like, wait a minute. And then, like I said, you actually pick up because you're like, well, maybe these are some light reading.
- [50:20]
Jack Carr
I would post some pictures about. On the books before they were lined up, and now they look all organized, but for the better part of a year, I mean, I would post them, but I look like a hoarder. I mean, there are books everywhere, maps everywhere, notes everywhere. It's just total chaos. It looks like I'm planning to invade, probably. It looks like I'm trying to invade North Vietnam because I have the old maps all over the place, on the walls, on that boards, like, I have everything. I have knives from Vietnam, rifles from Vietnam. I have all this stuff all over the place, books and all the rest of it. So it looks like I'm planning an invasion, but. But most of the night looks like chaos. So I probably won't ever post any of those. But it's. Yeah, just. Just this, the way I work, I.
- [50:58]
Jenny Urch
Think you cannot live the life you really want to live in this day and age because of the. Because of the million bots, because of that, The. The algorithmic pressure. You can't really. Unless you've read, because the, the reading. And it was so interesting, what you just said. Said, well, about the playing cards and about how the media used to be. And I just talked to this man named Dr. Bruce Perry, and he's talking about trauma, especially in childhood, but how trauma affects kids and, you know, how it affects them in, in their long term life. And he's brilliant. And he talked about what's called dosing and spacing and he talked about it in terms of education. It's like these kids are just like force fed all this information. You know, this class, this class, you know, got six, seven hours a day of class. You come home and do homework, homework. Just so much dosing and no spacing. And he said the dosing should be like eight minutes and then you have a long space where you're able to think about it. And that's how I feel. Like I read your book and then for me I go back through and take notes. So then I get a second pass through and it just allows for so much space and for me to really start to understand what are some of the principles here that I didn't know about, that I should know about? You know, the fact that they say in Vietnam and the fact that it's this perspective of legacy from grandfather to father, it really brings out these changes, it highlights it so well, you're like, well yeah, my grandfather didn't have that or my, my dad didn't have that. And there was a sentence when you're talking about the change in media and they say this is how the war will be won. That's a huge change. That's a huge change from bodies. And that's in the unrestricted warfare where it was like it was bodies on the ground. That's what war was, was. And now it's not about who has the most missiles. That's not what it is anymore. Things have changed. And it's the books and the immersion in long form, media in long form. And, and people talked about that. Neil Postman talked about that. The medium is the message. And you just think, oh yeah, I just went from newspaper to it. Now I get it on the app, on my phone. Like, no, no, that is a major difference. I was like, this is the stupidest question ever. How does media affect war? Because it's sober abroad. And you nailed it. You nailed it.
- [53:06]
Jack Carr
Well, it's a whole other front. You know, it's like we have the different front. You have the war in the Pacific, you have war in Europe, you have an air war, whatever it might be. Well, now there's a war being waged, well via phones, via social, not just media, but, but this new kind of media, not just through different relation to news organizations and stories meant to sway you one way or another. No, it's, it's more than that, that. And it is A new front in warfare.
- [53:31]
Jenny Urch
Yeah. So parents need to know. Make sure your kids are reading. Okay, Talk to me about. I learned all about the helicopter. So some people were calling this the helicopter war. And these helicopter pilots were getting paid. It seemed like such a small amount of money, Jack. It was like 25 bucks. Like anytime you take a team in or take a team out, you get $25. I was like, that doesn't not seem like that much. And I know it's in the 60s, but still.
- [53:55]
Jack Carr
Those are specifically the. The King Bees. Those are the South Vietnamese Air Force pilots. So not the US Pilots. They're just on their regular salary, but these are the Vietnamese Air Force pilots flying this thing called a King Bee, which was a very heavy, large aircraft that could soak up a lot of bullets because of the way it was, was built and designed. And so those were the guys that would get their, their 25 bucks or whatever I say in the book there. But yeah, wild.
- [54:20]
Jenny Urch
Okay, okay, so $25. Now I, when I've seen movies or, or the things that I've seen, it's like you think, well, how do you get extracted? And you're like, well, they come running to the helicopter, like in Jurassic park, you know, they run to the helicopter and they're being chased by Tyrannosaurus and they jump into the helicopter and off it goes. I had no idea that you were basically hanging. Like, you're talking about all the gear that they have. Like, I love that you. You always have the gear and the companies and like this Tomahawk and what they got a compass and they. What do they have. Have. And like they also have this 12t of rope because when the helicopter comes to extract them in this situation, they're lit. And this is like such an exciting part of the book. They're just hooking in and then they're. They're hanging.
- [55:03]
Jack Carr
Yeah, yeah. I mean, the. What you want to do is have a helicopter air land. So you want to have it land on the ground, get in and fly off. So that's more ideal. But in Vietnam and a lot of places in a hot extract in particular, that wasn't an option because you couldn't land through a jungle canopy. They tried doing some things for a while when they were. Would bomb an area first, so that would take out all the trees, and then you could land in some of these places. But. But in many cases, they were extracting on what they called strings. So on a rope. Helicopter's hovering above the jungle, drops down the rope, and there Was a. There's. I think it was three total over the course of the. Of the war. Maybe there was a fourth, but three that I'm aware of, different ways to tie into said rope to get extracted. But the one that I talk about here in 1968 was through a Swiss seat, which is just having your own little piece of. Of rope and being able to tie a harness yourself and then clip in with your D rings like a carabiner, and then this into this string beneath the helicopter. Then you'd be extracted through the jungle canopy, through that triple canopy in many cases, and then up above the trees, and then off you go. But many times they would happen under fire, and these helicopters would take off and try to get out of there, away from the gunfire, dragging their people underneath, through the jungle canopy as they're trying to get out. So many times these guys got. Got beat up on the way through the trees like that to get out of there, to get away from the gunfire. And so that's what I describe in the. In the prologue right there, which came from a real stories from these MACVSAW guys.
- [56:26]
Jenny Urch
Unbelievable. And they talk about the falling yellow leaf. Have you ever done that?
- [56:31]
Jack Carr
No, absolutely not. But I talked to people that did. It's like turning this helicopter. It was the fastest way for a helicopter to get down to the ground. And so they described it to me. I read about about it in the books. I've talked to them about it. I asked many. It was one of the things. I asked many questions because I've read it in their books. I heard them on my podcast talk about it, but I was still like, okay, how do I describe this to somebody? And I would try to, like, kind of regurgitate my understanding of what that was. Procedure was that maneuver was. And. And have them say, oh, yeah, that's it, or no, not really. What I mean is this. And so, yeah, the helicopter, like, turned sideways and like, fall through the sky downward and, well, almost like in an auto rotation towards the earth and. And at the last second, turn the engines back on, but it allowed them to just get down faster so they wouldn't be a target for as long. So, yeah. And sometimes they wouldn't tell you if you were a new guy that that was going to happen. And so it was kind of a rite of passage to the new guys who just showed up, didn't really know about the falling yellow leaf. And they thought they were crashing, but they did some maneuver. So it's crazy.
- [57:32]
Jenny Urch
Oh, my goodness, I learned so much. Next, it's very entertaining. I mean, it's such a thriller, but you learn so much. I didn't know about the USS Pueblo, which is the spy ship that was not resourced. You're. You're. I mean, so many of the books, you're incensed, like, as a reader is. You're kind of like, why the heck are they doing this? That's what I felt like in Beirut, you know, like, what's going on here? And this is the only ship that this ship is still in North Korea. So I. I had no idea. It's, like, not seaworthy. I learned about that. All of these. You talked about the beauty, the beginning, all of these different things that are going on at the same time, and you're giving it from their perspective. So, I mean, it's just absolutely a fascinating book. I'm gonna ask a couple last questions. There's this national poem that you talk about in this one. And. And he says, I doubt any Americans have read it. They really should. What's something that you think all Americans.
- [58:18]
Jack Carr
Should read in particular to that one? So that. That particular thing, I was trying to show the Vietnamese side of. Of the war. And so I was trying to really show their. Their perspective. So that's why that particular passage is in there. But I'll. Americans certainly should read the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Declaration of Independence, the Bible, where all of our essentially British common law comes from and where our legal system comes from. So we understand the history behind some of these things. So those are just the basics. And then depending on the person. And for someone like me who's interested in the things that I'm interested in, I would say Once An Eagle by Anton Meyer, written in the late 60s, it's one I recommend more than anything else. It's historical fiction, but you're learning so much about the years from just before World War I up to Vietnam, and you're seeing those years through the eyes of an antagonist and a protagonist, and both are officers in the United States Army. One was a prior enlisted guy who gets battlefield commission in World War I, and the other one's kind of a politician working his way through. And the lesson of the book really is to see your character and your reputation will take care of itself. So it's really a book on leadership, but it's historical fiction at the same time. So you're learning that through the course of the story. So that one other historical fiction I think is so valuable. Winds of War, War and Remembrance by Herman Woke. So you're learning about the pre war years leading up to Pearl harbor. And then you go from Pearl harbor in war and remembrance all the way to the end of the war. But you learn so much about that time frame and it's not dry. You're learning of it through the eyes of multi generational family that all have a different touch point with the war. So that Iron Rand's, of course, Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged, so valuable. But once again, these books require some time and you need to put the phone away and, and dive in to those pages and they will definitely give you a. A richer, fuller life and allow you to filter some of these other things that are, that are coming in. They'll let you not be as apt. Allow you to not be as Manipulate. Manipulate. Manipulatable anyway. To be manipulated. Yeah. Manipulative much as we are. You have a solid foundation from books and reading. But those are the five that I, that I really recommend more than any others.
- [60:28]
Jenny Urch
Wow. So the book is called Cry Havoc. It is phenomenal. Your books have been some of my favorite part of adulthood. They, like I said, they have expanded me so much. I talked to this man, Arthur Brooks, and he talks about how you, when you're younger, in your like early adulthood, you have fluid intelligence and then it changes to crystallized and you should sort of move into the second phase of life where you are helping to teach people and pass on the lessons that you have. And I just feel like of all the people I've ever talked to, you are the one who exemplifies that the most. You are the one who's like, look, I did it. I was out in the field. I'm this Navy seal. I did all these things for decades and now I have switched. I mean, to the point where you are on set in Morocco, you know, helping people to be exposed to things maybe they didn't know, to be entertained by it, but also to learn it is phenomenal. I got one last question because you talk about how, how one of the characters in here uses. Because you always talk about characters and they've got book stacks. One of them uses a tongue depressor for a bookmark. What do you use for a bookmark?
- [61:22]
Jack Carr
Oh, I have my. Actually they're. They're over there. Actually. No, I have them right here. I have one right here. Yeah, pull one out right here. So I love my bookmarks. This one was from in the Blood right here. So I do them for every book and then I have ones that say strength and honor on them and they fit so perfect. It's made by an American company and has of a lot. Little bone frog on the back right there, you can see that. And then the cross, tomahawks, a little, little brass thing right here. But I love this. It just makes me feel kind of like old school, you know, I'm not just throwing my, my plane ticket, you know, into there because I grabbed it at Hudson News or something like that. There's something about just these leather bookmarks that I, that I have on my site that I absolutely love. So all my books get, get these leather bookmarks now.
- [62:00]
Jenny Urch
So I didn't know. Look, I've got this.
- [62:03]
Jack Carr
Oh, no, that's so awesome.
- [62:06]
Jenny Urch
Actually, I, you know, that's like a really side benefit, you know, if you read the books. But if you are a woman listening in and a lot of women listen in, I'm like, well, what am I going to get Josh for Christmas? What am I going to get him for Father's Day? I was like, I'll just go to Jack Carr site. That's incredible. And the leather bookmarks are there. What an honor. I am so. I can't believe four times Jack and you're going back to write another book. They're all phenomenal. You will learn so much. I so appreciate your time and, and the new. We didn't even talk about it, but you've got the new.
- [62:33]
Jack Carr
It's Dark Wolf. Dark Wolf is out right now. The one on Prime Video and my favorite episodes. I don't know when this one's going to come out, but the sixth one dropped yesterday, I think. And five and six are two of my, my favorites. And so five and yeah, six just dropped yesterday. So two of my favorites are out there. But yeah, it's number one on Amazon prime terminal list from a couple of years ago is back in the top five as well at the same time, which is crazy. And then we're finishing up True Believer over here in Morocco and it is looking so, so good. And people are going to be, yeah, I think people are going to really like it.
- [63:05]
Jenny Urch
So, yeah, Dark Wolf. And it, yeah, so much. I, I'm just beyond. When you go through the acknowledgments, I'm like, there are so many people. I've never read an acknowledgment section as long as yours. Like, I can't. I, I bet you could never have imagined how many people that you would know through all this incredible work that you're doing. Jack, so good to see you again and thank you for being here.
- [63:25]
Jack Carr
Thank you so much. I'm already looking forward to our to our next conversation, so really appreciate everything that you do. Thank you so much. Hey, Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Now I don't know if you've heard, but Mint's Premium Wireless is $15 a month. But I'd like to offer one other perk. We have no stores. That means no small talk. Crazy weather we're having. No, it's not. It's just weather. It is an introvert's dream. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch up from.
- [63:56]
Jenny Urch
Page of $45 per 3 month plan. $15 per month equivalent required New customer offer first 3 months only, then full.
- [64:00]
Jack Carr
Price plan options available, taxes and fees extra.
- [64:01]
Jenny Urch
Cementmobile. Com.