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The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 592: Gravity Intolerance Might Be Your Missing Link | Dr. Brennan Spiegel, Pull
00:57:59
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- [00:04]
A
When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans. Send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets. Mom 60th and never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn more@WhatsApp.com welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast.
- [00:31]
B
My name is Jenny Urch. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and I have an exciting, wonderful guest for you today. His name is Dr. Brennan Spiegel and he is a professor and a doctor and I just read his book about gravity. It's so fascinating. It's the things I've never heard about. It's called pull. How gravity shapes your body, steadies the mind and guides our health. Find balance. Stand stronger, live longer. Dr. Spiegel, welcome.
- [00:55]
C
Well, thank you so much for having me.
- [00:57]
B
This is, I mean, I never heard of these things. I was going through this book and I was like, you know, you don't really know what you're going to get when you pick up a book that's like how gravity shapes your body.
- [01:07]
C
Right.
- [01:07]
B
And I was like, I have not heard of so much of this. So, Brandon, can you talk about, you know, you even said this a little out there, like you're maybe the forerunner of some of these things. You're using phrases like gravity intolerance. Yeah, I've never heard of that. So can you talk about your gastro and it's a hard word to say. I'm not gonna, I don't want to. It's a gastroenterologist.
- [01:29]
C
Gastro. Yeah.
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B
But what is the long word?
- [01:32]
C
Gastroenterologist.
- [01:34]
B
Enterologist. A gastroenterologist. You're a doctor and a professor and you were talking about how your mother in law moves to this assisted living facility and all of a sudden is starting to spend more time lying down and all of a sudden there's all these health problems. So can you talk, talk to us about the journey into talking about something that people haven't heard of, like gravity intolerance.
- [01:53]
C
Yeah, well, you've hit it on the head because I haven't been sitting around my whole career thinking about gravity at all. And that's kind of the point. You know, our relationship to gravity is kind of like a fish to water. You know, the fish swims in water. It's designed to survive and thrive by moving through water. But I doubt the fish thinks much about water at all, if it has any idea we're the same way. We're designed to survive and thrive by moving through this force of gravity. And it turns out if you look at it that way, this physics of our planet came first and our biology came second. And then our psychology emerged from that. So there's this through line all the way down to the very forces of this planet that forged us. So despite all that, I never really thought about that until as you mentioned, my mother in law had developed cognitive decline and she was in an assisted living facility. And I dedicate the book to her by the way. And she found herself lying flat a lot like a lot of our patients do, whether it's in the hospital or nursing homes, just not moving. And at the same time her belly started to swell up, she got bloating, slow digestion, depression, and you know, her diet hadn't changed, her medicines hadn't changed. And I started thinking, you know, we're not designed to, to lie flat all day. We are two legged, upright creatures. If we can stand, we move around the world in an upright posture. And I ended up getting really deep into what happens in the gut when you're flat for too long and even broader our relationship between gravity and the gut. And I wrote a paper about this and before I published it I wanted to make sure I hadn't gone crazy. So I sent it to a bunch of my colleagues who are experts around the world and I said, listen, I've written this paper on gravity in the gut. What do you think of it before I commit career suicide and go down this weird rabbit hole of gravity. And they said that makes perfect sense, of course. Yeah, that makes sense. And I submitted the paper, got published and accepted within two weeks, which was a record for me. And then it got this worldwide attention in the media and I realized this isn't just about the gut, this is about the entire body, our whole mechanism. And that's what led to the book that you're talking about.
- [04:03]
B
It's so fascinating, especially because we're sitting so much. And especially, especially while everyone is. But kids are sitting. Maybe adults used to sit too. You know, like there's office, there's been office workers for a long time, but in terms of kids, they just used to move a lot more. And you know, there's a whole thing of sitting is the new smoking. So can you talk about movement? You say humans aren't meant to lie flat all day. We're built to stand, to move, to resist gravity. We without the Benefits of standing, shifting or moving, our gut becomes sluggish. You brought that up just a minute ago. You say we are meant to stand for as long as we can, as strong as we can. And so the sedentary lifestyle is leading to health problems. So can you talk about that in relation to our kids? What your parents know in terms of gravity, intolerance and moving our body through gravity and parenting, like getting our kids up and moving and making sure that they're outside and all of that.
- [04:54]
C
Such good questions. And if you think about, like, where I'm standing right now, I happen to be in the middle of Los Angeles, and out my window, there are cars moving around, there's buildings. But if we went back just 200 years, 150 years, not 2,000 years, just a few generations ago, there would be chaparral out there, there would be farmers, there would be people working, standing, moving strong, and their lives were very different from our lives. Now I'm surrounded by drywall and fluorescent lights. I'm in this office talking to you through a glass screen with photons bouncing off of my eyes. I assume you're real because, you know, I just assume that. But you're not in front of me. My point is that our lives around us have massively changed. Not in a way that we are designed to. I'm at a standing desk right now, and that's how I fight gravity right here. I use a balance board under my feet. I wear normally a 20 pound weighted vest around my upper torso. And I put ankle weights on. And we could talk more about why I do that. It actually helps with weight loss, but it's my way of fighting gravity. And you're absolutely right. The body is designed to fight gravity. That's what we do. You know, there's only four fundamental forces in the universe. Four. One of them has to do with stars, and that has nothing to do with us. One of them has to do with our body not exploding immediately. And once we've got that figured out, there's only two other things we manage. That's electromagnetism and gravity. And it sounds kooky to talk about this, but that's literally what we're doing. We have to stand up the pumps and tubes in our body, the muscles and bones and tendons, the connection points and joints on the inside, but also the inner ear keeping us balanced. The brain is constantly managing gravity so we can unpack all this and talk about what that means for kids. But 100% movement, proprioceptive training, dynamic eccentric movements. We can unpack all these things of what that's really doing is re engaging with the planet from which we emerged. We are an extension of this Earth and we have to kind of honor that and respect that.
- [07:05]
B
Yeah. I had heard a statistic from my friend Angela Hanscom, who's a pediatric occupational therapist, that kids are sitting on average eight hours a day. And that's a lot. You know, you're talking about how even when you're sick, you say lying flat can be a double edged sword when you're sick. And this is kind of how medicine is going right now. On one hand it gives your body the rest, but on the other hand we're not built to lie down all day. And this has become the common medical practice where for the frailest patients who are most in need of care are confined to bed for days, even weeks and yet their complications get worse. So we gotta be moving, our kids need to be moving. You talked about this thing called the striker frame. Like that used to be the thing where it's going to just tilt you like. Well, kids are going to do that naturally. Like if they have time and space to move, they're going to be moving their bodies in the ways that they need to. So you talked about a couple things personally that you did that are super fascinating. One is this experiment where you wore these 40 pounds around for eight weeks and it totally changed so many things for you. So it's your self experiment and adding extra gravitational pull. Can you tell us about it?
- [08:08]
C
Yeah. So I called this operation Gravitate. And as I've gotten a little older, I've gained a bit more weight. I'm a marathon runner and I try to stay fit. And I realized I was kind of losing it a little bit. And I thought, what can I do just at work every day when I'm not seeing patients just standing here in my office working? And so I decided I'm going to wear weights on my body. And you've probably seen more runners exercising with some weighted vests or jackets. And this is all part of this idea called rucking, which is this exercise where you weight yourself down a little bit. So I was wearing these weights and one of my graduate students said, what's with this tactical vest you've got on? You know, what are you doing over there? And he did some research and he discovered that there's something called the gravitostat and it's almost like a thermostat for weight management in the body. Normally we gain weight very slowly over time. If we're overeating and not exercising. But if you gain weight all at once with weight on your body, the bones feel the weight and it's almost like they say, what's going on? Did the planet just get bigger? Did gravity just pull harder? We need to increase metabolism and there's been research in animals and in humans that we can lose weight just by weighing ourselves down. And then when you take off the weights, there's this buoyancy. It's almost like baseball players who weight down their bat in the warm up deck, in the warmup circle with a weighted donut and then they practice with it. Then when they get up to home plate and the bat is no longer weighted, they're stronger and faster. So there's this like training with gravity that then allows you to overcome the force of gravity more efficiently. And that's, that's what I did with that exercise.
- [09:47]
B
Yeah, it's the bat or it's like when swimmers, they shave right before they, you know, they have their meat or like you feel different when you get off of a pair of roller skates. Like you said how at first it felt like an anchor. Like your feet, it, it was interesting cuz it shows how much it affects, like your feet are cramping, you're getting headaches, your cardiovascular system is struggling. But you say a new strength was growing. This is what's so interesting about the book. I didn't know what to expect, Brennan, first of all. And I was like, oh my goodness, there's so much in here I don't know about. But you talk about both the physical side of it, right? Like your bone structure and the balance in your inner ear. But then you also talk about your mindset, how you feel about the world. And you said there's so there's always both. You say a new strength is growing, right? Because for you wear this £40 extra £40 for eight weeks, all day. You're like, people think you're weird. You're showing up at these meetings, you know, you've got all this stuff on, you know, and you say that a new strength was growing, not just in my muscles, but in my spirit. It forged a sturdier and more vibrant self. Can you talk about that piece?
- [10:54]
C
Yeah. Well, that's one of the most unexpected results of all this work is to understand how the mind and body are so connected in relationship to gravity. And you know, we can talk a lot about mental gravity and what happened to our kids or any of us if we're growing up lying down, like literally Horizontal in bed, you know, looking at a computer screen, not only does that undermine your physical health, undermining bone strength and muscle strength, the pumps and tubes that are constantly needing to bring blood and oxygen up to your brain against the force of gravity requires that they're primed, that you have strong muscles. You're moving. The pumps and tubes, the lymphatics, all that stuff is designed to fight gravity, but then the brain itself. So if you think about something like depression for a second, what are the symptoms of depression? It's almost like there's too much gravity on your body. You can't get out of bed, you're exhausted, you lack energy, you look down at your toes, you're slumped over, like you're literally being anchored and pulled down to the ground. And in fact, there's a theory from this guy, Lachlan Kent in Australia, that in some cases, depression is in fact a misinterpretation of gravity. Like you do not have a healthy relationship with it. It turns out there's a process called graviception, where the brain itself perceives gravity through all sorts of different mechanisms, and it makes a model in your mind of how you're in relationship to gravity. And if you literally misinterpret it, time slows down, you're exhausted, you can't move. So we can talk about how to undo that. And there's so many fascinating ways to think about depression when we think about it through the lens of gravity intolerance. And we can even talk about anxiety, too, which is sort of a falling. And maybe we'll get to that as well, because I think about when you're on a roller coaster and falling, guess what happens? You get gut feelings. Your belly lights up, just like people with chronic anxiety who are not falling on a roller coaster. So this is yet another direction that the book goes into, and you can unpack any and all of that as you'd like.
- [13:09]
B
It's fascinating. I've never heard of it. I was actually with some friends yesterday, and they were like, who you're going to be interviewing tomorrow for your podcast. I was like, well, we're going to be talking about gravity intolerance. And everyone's like, I've never heard of that. You say, you know, when you're talking about both things, like you're talking about Alzheimer's and Parkinson's and ALS and recovering from a stroke, you talk about fertility, you're talking about those types of things. But then you're also saying for someone with depression, the literal and metaphorical Challenge is simply to rise. And I've never read another book, Brennan, that has so many answers. So that is a thing like when you are just. You're so down and you use all these different words about how there's this. Verticality was the word. It was like, yeah, you climb the corporate ladder or, or you've, you know, you've fallen down and you have to get back up. Like the up, the down.
- [13:57]
C
Yeah.
- [13:58]
B
And just the importance of standing, of standing strong, of standing, you know, of standing upright and this list of things of standing tall. Standing tall doesn't just make you look confident. It also brings positive thoughts to the forefront, while slouching has the opposite effect. How is your posture? Are you supporting your belly? You talk about how your internal organs are like a sack of potatoes, that standing upright, if you stand up straight with your shoulders back and head high, that can trigger positive emotional shifts. This is so interesting. It's just, I, I, My brain is a little all over the place because there's so many facets and so many layers here. Like, you're talking about depression to standing tall. And it is the thing, like, if you would rise and if you will stand tall, like, actually this will make you feel better. So then can you talk about. Then there was another experiment that you did. I'm all over the place. I have so many notes. This is so interesting to me. Another experiment that you did. You're a runner, and you're an experienced marathon runner. Running, running, running, running. And all of a sudden, the pain got too much to where you had to stop. And this is really applicable to parents. We got these kids and you trying to figure out what shoes to get them to wear. So can you talk about your experience of switching to a more grounding type of shoe and how that changed your whole running experience?
- [15:20]
C
Yeah, absolutely. So this was inspired by something called the Alexander technique, which is a technique that was first developed a long time ago by an Australian stage actor who had noticed he was losing his voice. And he ended up tracking it back to his posture and even to his feet, which is amazing because that's the other end of the body. He realized that he was really curling his feet in on the stage. There was this tension in his legs, and it went all the way up his mechanism, as he called it, all the way up his spine, into his chest, into his throat, and there was a tension in his body he needed to release. And so he ended up writing all about how to release those tensions. And then, you know, professional athletes started using this technique and Professional opera singers and so on. Well, key to that is the grounding on the feet and bringing this back to gravity. You know, the bottom of the foot is only 5% of your body's surface area, but it bears the entire 100% burden of our weight. So that is our gravity management surface. That is the point of contact between us and literally Mother Earth. And we need to respect it. And what do we do? We wrap it up in shoes full of padding. And in some cases, like when hoka running shoes, you get a big thick layer. And I'm not saying don't use hokas or whatever, but what you're doing is you're removing that tactile connection. And each one of us has a unique, almost fingerprint of a foot. And it needs to be given the chance to mold itself around the planet. And when I changed into the so called barefoot shoes, these are the Vibram Five Finger Shoes, I shaved about 20 minutes off of my marathon time because I started using my foot as a gravity management surface to push me not to be pulled down, but to be pushed up. And it turns out gravity is as much an upward push as it is a downward pull. And when we think about it that way, it's like a trampoline effect where we're taking advantage of all of our muscles and our feet to bounce up off of the ground and to mold to the ground just like our ancestors did forever and ever. Now, that said, there are obviously risks to running barefoot and we live in a cement world and all that kind of stuff, but still being connected, tactile connection to the ground resonates up all the way up into the body. It's not a trivial thing at all.
- [17:45]
B
20 minutes off, that's remarkable. 20 minutes off your marathon time, as well as the fact that you had had to stop running because your pain was so great and that you brace for the pain when you switched to these five finger shoes and it never came. You also say that running in those types of shoes transformed your lower body. The arches of your feet became stronger, more defined muscles on the sides of your feet. So parents want to think about what kind of shoes you're putting on your kids and for yourself, if you are. I mean, I guess all of us, like, we should be up and moving. So think about what you're putting on your feet.
- [18:19]
D
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- [21:15]
B
Can you explain a little bit more about the pulling you down, pushing you up? So, yeah, okay, the upward push versus the downward pull you say is consistent with Einstein's theory of general relativity.
- [21:28]
C
Yeah, it's definitely a mind bender, even for physicists, because it's hard to understand. You know, we used to think in a way, you know, the way Newton, we all learned in high school or we took physics maybe that, you know, gravity is like almost like an invisible hand that pulls you down. But now we realize it's actually the bending of space time itself. This is what Einstein figured out. And there's like this. Well, of almost like if you think about a trampoline and you put a big bowling ball in the middle of the trampoline, the trampoline, you know, it forms like a cone around that depression. And that's how physicists describe space time. If there's a mass, there's a fabric around it that bends around us. All right, well, that's basically what gravity is. But what does that mean for us? Well, it turned out that it's all relative. So whether, if you're moving up versus something, the other thing is moving down compared to you. And so what that literally means, as I said, is gravity is not just pulling you down, it's pushing you up. It's like if you feel right now your feet, you have a pressure on them, you could literally imagine that you are being pushed up from below. That's literally what is happening. Even though it's weird because you're not moving, that is an upward acceleration. And anyway, this is a kind of physics sidestep. But mentally, if you think about it that way, now we think about the Earth as a trampoline, as something to bounce off of, not to get pulled down over time. We get pulled down, if we use it correctly, we bounce up, we buoy ourselves. So it's a kind of, like I say, physics side side discussion, but. But interesting as a mindset.
- [23:10]
B
So interesting. I've never learned about any of this. So as a gastroenterologist, you know, you're doing colonoscopies. People are coming in and they've got IBS and colitis and different things that you're struggling with. One of the ways that this relates to the gravity discussion is that when you study astronauts or when you talk about being in a plane and being at a different altitude, this really affects how people feel. So can you explain some of that connection?
- [23:39]
C
Oh, boy. This is such an exciting topic because it has everything to do with what diet we should be eating to fight gravity, how the gut helps us fight gravity in totally unexpected ways. So looking at altitude, you know, our place on the planet is not something we think a lot about. How far are you from the equator? How high are you from sea level? These have massive changes on our bodies that we often don't really think a lot about. And part of the change has to do with the microbiome, those trillions of organisms that live inside of us symbiotically, those little critters. As we move up, gravity's grip on the atmosphere weakens and pressure goes down. And so we feel it. And if you're in an airplane, if you get a snack pack, for example, or a bag of chips at cruising altitude, you'll notice it's all puffy because it's full of air. And as soon as you open it, all the air blows out. Same thing's happening in your gut at high altitude. It's blowing up like a balloon. Some people get jet belly, they get bloating and discomfort. Kids might get stomach aches on the plane. And there's a little exercise you can do I'll tell you about to help relieve the gas. But this is a gravity effect, and those bacteria are changing at high altitude. And then you get even more interesting. The bacteria are required for serotonin in our body, which is a whole other discussion. Serotonin, I believe, is a gravity management substance. That's what it evolved to do. And if you throw off your microbiome, you throw off your serotonin. And we literally see that in astronauts where there's no gravity. They get stomach issues up there, they get microbiome issues, they get serotonin issues. People living at high altitudes also get this. They get IBS and ibd. Crohn's disease flares get worse at high altitude. So we can go on and on about this topic, but I'll stop there because there's so much, and I don't want to overwhelm you with details, see which direction makes the most sense for you and your listeners.
- [25:41]
B
Well, it's fascinating, because I've never heard of that. So if you already are having some stomach issues, you say they can be triggered by air travel, scuba diving, roller coasters, drives in the mountains, and even swaying on a playground swing. So we're talking to a lot of families that are getting outside, and you talk about, man, if your hike is going. Going up to these higher altitudes, these are things that you need to know about that. If you have inflammatory bowel disease, like Crohn's or ulcerative colitis, a hike up a hill can mean more than just a change of scenery. It can trigger a cascade of symptoms. The higher we go, the looser the atmosphere's grip. So can you talk then about some of those astronauts? Like, yeah, you're like, these are really healthy people.
- [26:20]
C
Yeah.
- [26:21]
B
They're choosing the healthiest of the healthiest. And then they go up into space, and all of a sudden they've got skin. Skin rashes, and all of a sudden. What did you talk about? Like, their viruses are shedding that are normally, like, in their spine and out they come.
- [26:34]
C
Yeah, exactly. So we're learning these are the strongest members of our species, right. Of mind and body. Men and women that go up into space and, you know, they. They do get issues. They often get viral infections. And you think, how does that happen? Because they scrub that place clean. Right. The International Space Station is, you know, not like a hospital ward. No, it is clean. But what's happening is that we all have viruses in our body that are kept down by the immune system, and we live in harmony for the most part. If you get sick, sometimes things like zoster shingles can come out. That's an example where the virus that was in your body came out. People get Covid. And then they get other infections as a result. For example? Well, it turns out the immune system also is highly dependent upon gravity. And if you take gravity away, the immune system starts to get a little thrown off. And how that happens is really interesting, and maybe a bit more than we have time for here, but it has to do with shifts in fluid in the body, because normally our fluid is being pulled down by the Earth. And when we get up into space, we're just sort of floating and the fluid's all over the place in our chest and our head, and the body starts to get confused and will dehydrate itself. And then the immune system gets thrown off and there's a chain reaction. It just keeps pointing back to the fact that we evolved on this planet with this planet, and that Means if we're going to go to Mars, we're going to need to really figure out what does that mean for human health. Not when just regular Joes and Janes go out into outer space. Like, what's going to happen to them? You know, we have most well trained people in the world who have issues and like in low gravity orbit. So, yeah, there's a Goldilocks zone. Too much gravity, too little gravity. We need to find that sweet spot.
- [28:24]
B
This is fascinating. I mean, you say these astronauts, they're having headaches, muscle weakness, bone thinning, facial swelling, shifts in stress, hormones, it's thing after thing. And then one of the things that you talked about, okay, this is really important for kids. So if you're not having this, this load. And what I learned about rucking from this company, it's called Goruck. I actually learned about it from this man named Michael Easter, who wrote a book called Comfort Crisis. And then he talked about this company called Go Rock. And they talk a lot about the bone structure and especially for women, you know, and, and normally, like you're carrying your baby, you're carrying your baby until they're three, four maybe on your back. And it's helping with your bone structure. So then you talked about how these astronauts, they steadily lose mineral density. I actually didn't know about the osteoblasts and the osteoclast, if I said that right. Can you explain that? So important about moving and carrying and, and bearing weight. It's good for, I mean, kids are doing that naturally, right? Like they, they want to carry the thing, they want to carry the pumpkin. Like all of that is so good.
- [29:24]
C
Yeah. I mean, your bones and muscles is the first line of defense against gravity. It's the scaffolding that holds everything up. And you've got this spine that if you're straight and you're holding it up and you're lifting up your chest, you're lifting up your diaphragm, and then there's all these organs on the inside, they're dangling almost like ornaments on a Christmas tree. You need to pull those up and be strong, right? So you need that system in place to lift that sack of potatoes we've all got in our belly called the gut. And when that's wide open, it moves better, which is why when we lie down way too long, it starts to compress. So the point is that we need these muscles and bones and if we put more gravitational force on them, they become stronger. And that has to do with those osteoblasts which are these cells that form bone, versus osteoclasts that can break down the bone, and there's a ratio between them. We want more bone production than we want destruction. But it turns out if you don't have gravity on your body, either because you're in space, where absolutely they lose bone density rather quickly, or because you're lying down all day on your computer playing games or whatever, you're going to lose bone mineral density. And yet it's really interesting that moms who are. Or parents who are carrying kids around do have the equivalent of rucking and are activating that gravitostat in their body, which means they're increasing their metabolism, helping maintain weight just by having extra weight on their body and strengthening their bones. And when all that disappears, the. You have to try and substitute that with other sources of gravitational engagement.
- [31:00]
B
Well, isn't that remarkable? Wow. It's like those. You know, when our kids were little, we got the baby carrier. Ours is called an Ergo. And it's like, I wish I would have known this then. I would have been. I mean, we. When we went outside, it was like, I used it because I had to, because, you know, you got these little kids and, like, you can't carry everybody, and so you put them in that backpack. But I'm like, I would have been so much more intentional because there's so many things going on with that. So the osteoblasts build a new bone in a space that activity slows. The osteoclasts remove old bone, and that still happens in space. So for these astronauts, the result is bones that become not only less dense, but also more fragile. So this extra weight, you know, it's like using the power of gravity to help your health. There are so many incredible ideas in here. Like, I don't even know what we're going to have time to talk about. You talk about the Dead Butts Syndrome. You talk about all, like, the dead hang and all of these things that help. You talk about the squatty potty. You talk about the standing desk and the balance board. There's so many ideas. I don't think I've read a book that has as many ideas, like stimulating the vagus nerve. And maybe you try a float hang, a float tank. And then I got to the end, Brennan, and there's all these, like, this appendix. You know, it was like, there's a robust resource guide, practical strategies for gravity resilience. There's so many ideas. I was like, you packed in all the information about the gravity intolerance and. And the astronauts and the gut. And then you have all these ideas at the end, plus the resources. But one of the other things that you talk about, which is so fascinating to me, we talk about the vestibular sense quite a bit, and it's something that I'd never heard of till I was a parent. Never even heard of it. And you're kind of like, oh, well, how important can it be? But you say the vestibular sense acts like glue, binding the mind to the body. I want to talk about the ear crystals.
- [32:47]
C
Yep.
- [32:48]
B
Can you tell us about, like, your ear crystal got knocked out of place playing capture the flag?
- [32:53]
C
Yeah. Oh, yeah. So when I was a kid, I was at summer camp one year. I might have been in 10th grade. I'm forgetting. And there's this game, capture the flag. I think probably most people know this game, but, you know, you have to run across an enemy territory and get a flag and bring it back. And the way we played it is there was the safety box around the flag, and you're safe if you get to that box. And so I ended up, like, remembering I'm diving for the safety box when I see a knee coming at me. And then that's it. Blackout. And I had a concussion. And, you know, back then, we didn't know any better. And so they brought me to the camp medic, and I woke up, and they sent me back to camp. You know, now we'd have paramedics on scene, and you'd be sent home to your parents. Well, anyway, I realized that that blow changed my relationship with gravity because it didn't just give me a concussion. It knocked loose some crystals in my inner ear. We all have these little crystals. They're called otoliths. They're tiny little calcium crystals, the tiniest little thing. And it's basically keeping track of the fluid sloshing around in your inner ear. And as you move your head left and right, up and down, there are all these tube systems. It really just comes down to tubes and plumbing. And then the nervous system is keeping track of these tiny little changes. But the little crystals are vital to get it right. But if one of them knocks loose, then all of a sudden you think you're spinning, when the only thing that's spinning is this tiny little crystal in your inner ear. And so for quite a while, I was really struggling with this. And I ended up having an ear, nose, and throat doctor confirm it by looking at my eyes and seeing that they were beating in a funny way called nystagmus when I move around. And this got me thinking more broadly about, well, what does that inner ear do? And you mentioned it's sort of a glue that holds the mind and body together. This is the big breakthrough. As I was researching this book, I was thinking, well, I learned that it helps you tell up from down, left from white, and it keeps you upright. Yes, it does. But what it really does is it tells you that you are you. It literally tells you that you're in your body and not in somebody else's body. And so when you move your body, your brain can feel it. But just imagine if there's a little bit of a lag. You start to wonder, am I in this body? Am I having an out of body experience? People get anxious, they get panicky. There's people that have anxiety and have panic attacks and feeling like they're literally not in their body and they don't know what to do. And people tell them they're schizophrenic. Now in some cases it may actually be a true psychiatric disorder. In some cases though, no one's even looked at the eyes or the inner ear ever. And there are ways to treat this condition that have nothing to do with medicines. So yeah, the inner ear is super important. Training the inner ear and that all requires movement and activity and proprioceptive balance training and getting out. And if you're lying in bed all day, you are not moving your inner ear around, you're not training your inner ear system.
- [35:59]
B
That's like one of the things we talk about is the movements that kids naturally do. They do all sorts of head out of an upright position types movement all through childhood, right. Like, you know, you that that's what somersaulting is and cartwheels and, and swinging and going on that merry go round that spins and doing the wheelbarrow where, you know, like, do you remember doing that in field day? It's like someone holds your feet and you put your hands and you walk or you crab walk. It's like all of these things that kids do naturally. This is training that. And also the concussion thing is interesting too because people are talking about that in terms of sports. And I don't know if anyone's talking about the fact that these crystals, these autoliths can get loosened. So these tiny calcium crystals on both of your ears, they come loose and you start you're not feeling good. And somehow this doctor is able to tell from the way your eyes react. So this is another big thing. Like if kids are having trouble reading, they're having trouble concentrating on the board at school.
- [36:56]
C
They're.
- [36:57]
B
This is something to be aware of. Can you talk about the Epley maneuver? Because then they try and get the crystals back into place.
- [37:05]
C
That's right. So it turns out there's this physical therapy maneuver where you follow a certain set of instructions. You know, you move your head this way and you move your head that way, and then you sit up quickly, then you lie back, and there's a step by step. And I talk about in the book guide for how to do that. And what you're basically doing is if there's this loose crystal floating around, you're taking it and you're dumping it back out of those tube systems, out of the way where it won't cause problems. And I actually did this, and it was incredible because as I was doing it, all of a sudden I felt like my entire body was falling into this rocky chasm. Like, it was shocking, this otherworldly physics. Like my relationship to gravity was completely violated. I was on another planet for a second and. And then boom. Complete stability. Like I was on a rocking boat. And then stable. And I felt like, wow, that's amazing. It's all better. And so that's called the Epley maneuver. You know, I'm an adult doctor. We do this with adults. I'm not as certain how common this is with kids, but one could imagine that can happen to anybody. If you get, you know, the right blow to the head, or for whatever reason, one of those crystals just, you know, gets knocked loose.
- [38:20]
B
That's something to be aware of and something to be aware of. That this vestibular sense is really imperative not only to the way that you move through the world, but the way that you relate with yourself. So when you're talking about this Epley maneuver, you say, it was unlike anything I had ever experienced. It was so strong, it felt like I was on a storm tossed ship. And then you're fine, then you're fine. Then you feel real stable.
- [38:42]
C
By the way, you were mentioning somersaults and all that. And in the book, I also talk about this experiment that NASA did. It was with rats. But what they looked at is pups that were born from, like moms in space, you know, rat moms, okay? If they were in utero and then born in space and brought back down to Earth, they couldn't flip themselves over anymore. Whereas the pups that were born on the planet were able to flip themselves over much more easily. And so it raises a question about what is the purpose of play. I mean, there's lots of purposes, but one of those purposes is literally to, as you said, be somersaulting, moving, cartwheeling, learning about your body in relationship to this earth, this earth that has a pole that we ground ourselves in. The more you're moving in relationship to it, the more your brain and body and inner ear are training on what it means to be on this planet. And if we're on a different planet and come to this one, or out in space and come to this one, all of a sudden it's like you can't even do a somersault. You can't even flip yourself over because you never learned what it's like. And it's amazing how gymnasts have such a strong presence about them. And my daughter did competitive gymnastics for many years and not only did that train her to be a good public speaker, and now she's running a marathon and she's very strong of body, but she's also just like her posture. You know, I'm embarrassing her here, but you know, she looks like somebody who was a gymnast. And you can almost tell that people who train not just their physical strength, but their mental and proprioceptive and vestibular senses have a different way in how they move about the world.
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F
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B
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- [41:58]
B
And then you talk about like tai chi or some people might do yoga or there are things that you can do. They do headstands. There's things that you can do as an adult that maybe are a little less. Well, I liked your wording with the weighted vest in the weighted ankle weights. Like you said, this is a more gentle form as opposed to like going and doing some 45 minute, which is probably good for you anyways, but like some major workout, you're like, this is a more gentle. What is the wording was so good.
- [42:28]
D
I'm trying to find it. Sorry.
- [42:29]
C
Yeah, more gentle strain on my aging body or something like that. Yeah, yeah.
- [42:33]
B
An all day gentler challenge. So as an adult you should still be doing like I think because of the inner ear thing and then the fluid changes and then you can get more motion sick as you get older with these types of vestibular inputs. But there are ways to still do them as an adult that really can help with that. Where you're probably not going to be somersaulting down a hill, you know, when you're 37. But there are still things that you can do to help with that. Can you go a little bit deeper then? We covered this a little bit at the beginning. It's more than just the knowing where our body is in space. It's also this connection to anxiety or feeling panicking.
- [43:11]
C
Yeah, yeah, right. This is so fascinating to me as a gastroenterologist because I see a lot of patients and a lot of kids get this way too where they have stomach aches and of course you worry what's going on. Is this an infection? Is this inflammation? Is this celiac disease? Is this inflammatory bowel disease? And we need to look for all those things. Sure. But in many cases, and I can speak about adults here, but it works with kids too. We don't find a clear cut explanation for these feelings. They keep coming back and you think, well, you know, we can't take a picture of it, we can't run a blood test for it, we can't do an X ray for it. Then it must be all in your head. And that's not the right message either, by the way. The brain and the gut are connected. We call this the brain gut axis. There are so called disorders of gut brain interaction which have to do with this relationship between how the gut and the brain are talking to each other. And the microbiome is right in the middle. In the book, I talk about how really, in many ways, this is a gravitational management system, which is not something most people talk about. But like I said, I wrote this paper and it got published, and people seem to be interested in it. So I really been digging deeper into that. And so just taking a step back, I mentioned roller coasters before. Why is it that when you're on a roller coaster, you get gut feelings? You know, that's thrilling. Kids love that. A lot of kids love it, but some kids do not love it. By the way, you might ask yourself, why is it that some people are thrilled by a roller coaster and other people are absolutely fearful? And in the book, I talk about how I was more of the fearful kid and, you know, I would white knuckle and bend over and just hold my breath down that drop, whereas my friend has his hands up and he's thrilled by the whole thing. Why do we ride roller coasters? Well, we're actually, in a way, we're practicing our demise. We're kind of practicing death. But we know it's safe. We are not designed to fall 20 stories. Are you kidding me? That's death. But we know we're safe, so we do it. And it's fun. It's like cheating death a little bit. Now, I don't mean to put it so starkly because it's fun. I mean, I ride roller coasters. Not anymore, but that's your belly when you're falling, telling you, oh, my God, you're about to die. You're about to die. You're about to die. Oh, you didn't die. Thank God. It's like you have this G force accelerometer, not just in your inner ear, but in your gut that's telling you there's a threat and things are not going well for you right now, but you override it because. No, no, I'm having fun. I'm having fun. Well, some people with anxiety do not want to ride roller coasters because they have those feelings all the time, and it's their body telling them, you're falling, you're falling. Metaphorically falling. I am falling to my death. Catastrophizing is the feeling like I'm in free fall. And you know what's at the bottom of that? This is a little bit poignant and stark. In some traditions, we end up in a gravity box called a grave. That's a word derived from the word gravity, like our goal in life, literally, psychologically, neurophysiologically is to stay up and stand up as long as we can. And as well as we can, we do not want to be pulled back down into the dirt. And that's in essence what gut feelings are telling you. It's telling you that you're moving down, you're falling, and depression as you fall in, you've reached the bottom, you can't get up, gravity's claimed you. So that gets to like, how do we work with our kids and work with adults to reconfigure that perception that you are not falling? It is an illusion you are stable. We can do this through lots of different cognitive behavioral therapies, virtual reality therapies, flotation tank therapies, strength building to get you to realize and kids to realize you are strong, you are not falling down. And believe it or not, that's related in some cases to gut feelings.
- [47:18]
B
And then all of that early childhood movement really matters, like in a more in depth way than I even realized. This is a lot.
- [47:25]
C
And we're literally growing up. I'm sorry to interrupt, but it just came to me and your mom and dad is saying, hey, you know, don't fall, don't fall, don't fall. Be careful, be careful, don't fall down. It's, you know, if you fall, what's going to happen? If I fall, you get hurt, you're going to get. What does that mean? Am I going to die? Am I going to break my arm? Am I going to go to the hospital? Like, if literally your whole life is in a bed or a chair and you've been told your whole life not to go out, not to play, not to fall, you're no longer relating to the Earth the way all of our ancestors did, the way we were built to relate to the Earth. Our mental and physical relationship to gravity is undermined. And you can only imagine the ripple effect across mind and body that's going to have.
- [48:08]
B
It's fascinating. It's fascinating. And I've read a lot about the vestibular sense, and I did not know this association between that and anxiety and feeling panicky. And it's interesting that you brought up the roller coaster. So we've got, we have five kids and four of them would be fine to go on rides. I actually am a little less. Like, um, my midwife said recently that she doesn't let her kids go on roller coasters. She didn't when they were growing up. I was like, oh, no. Like, these are things you never thought about. Like, you know, she talks about the slashes your brain around. And I don't know, she had someone tell her, like, not. Not to do it with her with her kids. But I've got. Of our five kids, four would go on a roller coaster any day. Like, they would think that's really fun. One, no way. Like, no, she does not want to go at all. And she's the one who also is really. I don't know if fearful is the right word, but, like, she's like, I don't want to play in the piano competition. I don't want to ask the, you know, the clerk. You know, it's like she has extra nerves.
- [49:10]
C
Maybe gets butterflies before a big exam or a test.
- [49:14]
F
Yeah.
- [49:14]
C
Some people, some kids, and I don't know about your child in particular, but some kids I see, you know, they'll get a little nauseous before a competition. They get gi Upset when the stakes are high, when stress starts to build. And it's almost like the brain is a ventriloquist that is throwing its voice into the gut. And the gut is where we focus on, but it's actually the brain sending stress signals into the gut. And we've evolved to have gut feelings. And in the book, I argue that gut feelings, in some cases, not in all cases. Some cases it's an infection or it's celiac disease or whatever, but in some cases, it's the body telling you there's a threat. And there may, in fact be a real threat. Right. That's why we have gut feelings. It keeps you just a step ahead of the bad thing so you can run and go. Right. The reason you and I are here right now is our ancestors were not eaten by the lions, okay? They were the ones who are like, I'm out of here. I'm running out of here. Right. And so we all have some stress because that's what kept us alive. Eustress is good, but if it goes too far, you literally feel like you're falling. And you get the same feeling that you get on a roller coaster.
- [50:27]
D
Wow.
- [50:28]
B
I would have never related those two. You know, the child that like is like, I do not want to go on any ride ever. Like, if we go to the amusement park, all the other kids ride, and me in this one, we would just walk around. She won't go on anything. And she's also the one that has a little bit more of those nerves. So how interesting that those really are. It's the same feeling. So there is a lot to learn here. And then you just go through. I Guess what? I felt like, you know, taking out of it in terms of action steps is like, how can I increase my interactions with gravity? You know, I'm like, it gave me a little extra push for the wrecking. I'm at a standing desk as well, but I'm sitting. But it could. It goes up and down. And I was like, I should be doing it more. I've got the little balance board and. But there were so many different ideas, Brennan, that you brought up that you could try. I would love to hit the one about the. Okay. I just want to mention because we're. We obviously we're going to run out of time. There's so much in this book.
- [51:21]
C
I would have to come back, I guess.
- [51:23]
B
Yeah, that'd be amazing. The gut microbiome. So you've got foods in here. The serotonin and mental health is a huge thing. You can boost serotonin through sunlight exposure. That's in here as well. The microbiome doesn't just help us digest food, it helps us fight gravity itself. So there's a lot in there, like, people want to read about that. The book is called Pull how gravity shapes your body, steadies your mind and guides our health. But you're talking about squatty, potty and hydrating. You talked about push ups. You know, it's just so many interesting things. Boxing. Okay. The dead hang. This was so fascinating, Brennan, because I didn't know. First of all, I'm. I'm heavy. I'm like, I have a hard time. I probably even had a hard time as a kid doing the dead hang. But there was a person whose longest time was 16 minutes and three seconds. Okay, well, someone wants to challenge that, like. And so you're like, well, maybe they're going to make 20 minutes or they're going to make 25 minutes. But the person who beat the 16 minute time did a dead hang for 1 hour, 20 minutes and 41 seconds. Just like an astronomical amount of time longer. And you talk about two things here. This is like. This is gravity, right? Like, it's gravity resistance. The dead hanging.
- [52:36]
C
Defying gravity. Yeah.
- [52:38]
B
And that sort of. I. I don't even know what you would call it. Like, it's that just hang in there, just hanging there.
- [52:45]
C
Grit.
- [52:46]
B
Yeah. And it's a piece.
- [52:49]
C
It's the words that we use. Just think about. That's the verticality of our language, you know, and it's not just metaphorical. Sometimes people are like, oh, you know, that's just language. No, there's a reason why we say hang in there. We don't want to fall. You don't want to drop, you don't want to collapse. There's a reason why we look up to heaven and down to the ground or hell's down below. In some mythologies or in some religions or church steeples point to the heavens, cathedrals have high ceilings. We literally feel better. Our stress hormone levels go down, our heart rate variability goes up, which is a good thing. Beat to beat variation when we're in an open space versus a constrained space. So again, these are all just examples of the very subtle ways that we process gravity in our mind and body. Yeah.
- [53:38]
B
And so if you can start to incorporate a little bit of this, and you say incorporating dead hangs into your fitness routine offers more than just physical benefits. They also teach gravity resistance. So then you're talking about inversion tables, float tanks, the vagus nerve, possibly using a weighted blank while you're sleeping, doing. You talked about the VR that people will use that, the beach environment, the. I think there's a lot of things there. You actually have a whole book about that. It's called vrx. So that's a whole different subject. Yes, but you also talk about anti gravity music therapy. Like you have a playlist in here. There is. So there is such a breath in this book. I was just floored because I didn't know what to expect at all. And then I'm like, I'm learning these words like dead butt syndrome and gravity intolerance that I've never heard of. And it's going all the way from that all the way to your anti gravity music therapy playlist. You must have been studying this for a long time.
- [54:37]
C
Yeah, well, you know, it's weird because in a way I've been studying it without knowing I was studying it. It's just basic medicine. I just never thought about medicine through the lens of gravity. And when I rethink medicine and health through this lens, that's the result. That's what this book is. That's why it covers so much material. Because, like, I had to rethink every body system, everything that I know. And I call this biogravitational medicine. It's just a new way of thinking about, you know, evidence based medicine. I'm not proposing any crazy new things that aren't already supported by evidence, just trying to tie it back to why it works in relation to gravity.
- [55:15]
B
I love that phrase. I had that one bolded biogravitational medicine. Then you talk about yawning even.
- [55:22]
C
Oh yeah, yeah.
- [55:24]
B
What's the power of yawning?
- [55:25]
C
I mean, this is another example. When you yawn, I see it as a gravity management tool. So when do we yawn? We yawn when we're tired, typically, maybe we're bored. And so what yawning is actually doing is when you suck in air, take a big deep breath. Gravity, if you're upright, pulls the blood to the bottom of the lungs. And it's at the base of the lungs where we maximize oxygenation, which makes sense because we're upright creatures. So we want to when we're working out or exercising or upright. And what that then does is it like a bellow pushes the diaphragm, pushes all that oxygenated blood into the left chamber of the heart, the ventricles, and then, boom, you get this oxygenated blood flow into your brain just when you need it, you know, when you're sleepy or bored or tired. And you can imagine our ancestors maybe needed just a little bit more time to find a safe place, place to sleep before they fell asleep. And so they learn to take deep breaths and yawn, and they're fighting gravity, getting blood to the brain. So that's another way of thinking about what a yawn does.
- [56:30]
B
I love that it's a book that explains the entire thing that you didn't even know existed, right? Like, that could be a book in and of itself, right? Which is like, hey, here's something you've never heard of before. Grab. What was the word you say? Grab a ception.
- [56:46]
C
I didn't know about that gravisception or the gravitostat or all these different things. And it's all in the literature. And what I realized is a lot of people have been thinking about gravity. They just haven't woven it together into one narrative. And really, that's what this book became. And part of what I try to get through in the pages is my own exploration, my own journey as a doctor and a professor. And I teach medical students at ucla, and I don't teach them about gravity. I never got taught any of this stuff. So at the end of the book, I kind of rethink, well, how should we be thinking about clinical medicine? What would a biogravitational medicine clinic look like? How should we retrain our doctors, our young students, to think about the body in this much broader way? Would it change how we speak with patients and share decision making with parents and kids and families? And does it make more sense to people to understand the body through this lens? And I found with My patients, because I talk about, talk this way all the time now in my clinic, they get it. It's just like, oh, yeah, well, now I understand why I should exercise more. That makes perfect sense. You know, rather than just say, you need to do it because it's good for you.
- [57:51]
B
Right. Or I need to get up after surgery, I need to try and move.
- [57:53]
C
My body instead of now, you know, why fight gravity. You gotta fight gravity. It'll pull you down.
- [57:59]
B
Yeah, it's remarkable. It is remarkable how you took the whole concept that, you know, most people have never heard of, and you were able to explain the whole concept for just your average reader. Right. I'm not a doctor. So to understand the concept, then to tie in all of these other things, like the emotional parts of it and anxiety and depression, the vestibular sense, you have your own stories, like you have your own roller coaster story and Capture the flag and the ear crystals and the, you know, you've done these experiments. That's all in there. And then it's like, well, here's all sorts of things you can do, you know, make sure you're drinking more water and here's why. So just remarkable. And then there's the. At the end, it's all these resources, pictures. I was like, how is this all in one book? So I just got so much out of it. Brennan, huge congratulation. Congrats. The book is called Pull how gravity shapes your body, steadies the mind and guides our health. We always end our show with the same question. The question is, what's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside?
- [58:54]
C
Oh, boy. So many. I don't even know where to start. But something that pops into my head because I'm from Los Angeles was just being on the Santa Monica picture pier on a beautiful sunny day with my family, my mom, and seeing the roller coaster. We talked about roller coasters and just the vibrancy of the scene. Almost like a Monet watercolor of the beach and the Pacific Palisades off in the distance and just seeing where the land meets the sea, where our, in essence, gravity bound world meets the aqueous, buoyant world. Something about that really comes into my head when I hear about you, when I hear that question.
- [59:38]
B
Yeah, Yeah, I love it. Brennan. This has been remarkable for me to learn all of this. Thank you for including us in your podcast week. The book will be out by the time this podcast is out. Really appreciate your time.
- [59:50]
C
Well, thank you so much. Really. It was a great conversation.
- [59:57]
B
And Doug here we have the Limu Emu in its natural habitat, helping people custom their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating.
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It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug Limu.
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D
Is that guy with the binoculars watching us?
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B
Cut the camera. They see us.
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Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty, Liberty.
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