1KHO 596: Chase Down Your Dreams Today | Shawn Johnson, Kiss the Fire

Summary

The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast

Episode: 1KHO 596: Chase Down Your Dreams Today | Shawn Johnson, Kiss the Fire
Date: October 14, 2025
Host: Jenny Urch (That Sounds Fun Network)
Guest: Shawn Johnson (Author, Pastor, "Kiss the Fire")

Overview

This powerful episode features Shawn Johnson discussing his new book, "Kiss the Fire: 7 Ways to Get Back Up When You Want to Give Up." The conversation revolves around resilience, hope in the face of devastating diagnoses, the transformative power of movement and nature, vulnerability, community, and fighting to reclaim dreams and purpose even when life feels overwhelming.

Jenny and Shawn frankly explore what it means to face life-changing news, how to climb out of despair, and why moving your body, forming deep connections, and reevaluating your dreams are crucial for a meaningful, present life—both for kids and adults.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Shawn’s Diagnosis: From Injury to Life-Altering News

• Wake Surfing and Unexpected Discovery

  • Shawn shares that after a wake surfing injury led to a torn bicep, continued hand tremors pushed his physical therapist to refer him to a neurologist.
  • He expected a pinched nerve but was instead diagnosed with "an incurable brain disease" in the Parkinson’s family.
  • Notable Quote:

    “I said, what’s best case scenario? And he goes, that we find lung cancer... But if it’s what I think it is, you can’t do anything about it.” – Shawn, (03:21)

• Initial Shock and Family Impact

  • The diagnosis brought fear for his future as a husband and father, leading to a period of deep despair and questions about legacy and provision for his three sons.

2. Crawling Out of the Pit: Resilience and Support

• Surrender and the Power of Friendship

  • After his diagnosis, Shawn recounts feeling utterly defeated, until a friend and UFC coach called and offered support with a powerful phrase: "We’re gonna kiss this fire and walk away whistling."
  • Notable Quote:

    "I'm not saying it's not gonna be hot... but this is not gonna steal your peace. It's not gonna steal your joy. You're gonna get through this. You're gonna be stronger on the other side." – Coach/Friend, relayed by Shawn (07:28; full story 07:28–10:02)

• Movement as Therapy – Boxing and Cross-Body Exercise

  • Shawn describes how cross-body activities like boxing are recommended for slowing down neurodegeneration.
  • Boxing requires intense physical and mental effort, forcing the brain to build connections and resist degeneration.
  • Jenny links this to children’s brain development through movement and outside play, reinforcing the podcast’s core message.
  • Notable Quote:

    “It’s almost as if with your activity, you push back against the parts of your brain that want to degenerate that day. And you say, you don’t get to degenerate today. You got too much to do.” – Shawn (10:13)

3. Living in the Present and Redefining Dreams

• Day-by-Day Living & Small Finish Lines

  • Rather than letting fear of an uncertain future paralyze him, Shawn intentionally fills his days with purpose—boxing, spending time with family, scheduling “little finish lines” like short trips and quality time.
  • He discusses how his dreams have shifted from long-term to near-term wins and joys, a philosophy rooted in scripture and wise living.
  • Notable Quote:

    “You’re alive today. So go chase down your dreams today because nobody knows what’s going to happen tomorrow.” – Shawn (12:59)

• Advice on Parenting and Presence

  • Shawn talks about not missing opportunities to connect with his sons, even if it means reprioritizing busy schedules.
  • Notable Quotes:

    “I don’t know how long things will be great. ... For me, it’s not even just, I don’t know how long I’ll live. It’s, I don’t know how long I’ll be able to play basketball with my boys.” – Shawn (25:03)
    "It doesn’t change how much time we have. It just changes how we prioritize it." – Shawn (26:17)

4. Vulnerability, Fatherhood, and Healing from Brokenness

• Shawn’s Upbringing: Overcoming a Difficult Past

  • He shares openly about a traumatic background—absent biological father, a mother struggling with addiction, abandonment as a baby, and a stepfather who never showed approval.
  • Despite not having positive models, Shawn sought to become a present, loving father himself, even if it meant learning on the go.

• The Power & Paradox of Brokenness

  • He explains how vulnerability and honesty with his children and congregation—admitting struggle and anxiety—built deeper, more authentic relationships.
  • Notable Quote:

    “God only uses broken people because what other kinds are there?” – Shawn’s counselor (34:26)

5. Community and Friendship: A Lifeline

• The Fight for Real Connection
  • Shawn credits his small group of six men with saving him during his hardest times.
  • Their group, formed intentionally at a “midlife” moment (triggered by a friend’s realization of having no one who truly knew him at age 40), prioritizes honesty about marriage, doubts, spirituality, and life’s hardest realities.
  • Notable Quote:

    “You do have to fight for it. It doesn’t happen accidentally.” – Shawn (48:01)

6. The Cycles of Giving Up and Not Quitting

• Modeling Perseverance
  • Even as a pastor, Shawn struggled with feelings of unworthiness due to his mental health battles and considered quitting.
  • Sticking with faith and community led to significant positive outcomes for his children, who now serve in their church community.
  • Notable Quotes:

    “All you have to do is get good at not quitting.” – Marathon runner quoted by Shawn (57:01)
    “At the proper time, you’ll reap a harvest if you don’t give up.” – Galatians 6:9, discussed by Shawn (56:05)

7. Humor, Humanity, and Everyday Joy

• Levity Amid Hardship
  • The conversation ends with laughter about lifted trucks and phobias, as well as touching, ordinary memories from childhood (spending time outside playing baseball with his stepdad), reminding listeners of the healing and grounding power of simple, shared moments outdoors.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Resilience:

  “We’re gonna kiss this fire and walk away whistling.” – Coach/Friend via Shawn (07:28)

• On the Role of Movement:

  “Boxing… You’re worried about your footwork and your defense… It’s almost as if with your activity, you push back against the parts of your brain that want to degenerate that day.” – Shawn (10:13)

• On Brokenness and Leadership:

  “God only uses broken people because what other kinds are there?” – Shawn’s counselor (34:26)

• On Friendship and Community:

  “You do have to fight for it. It doesn’t happen accidentally.” – Shawn (48:01)
  “At my 40th birthday… I have a lot of people in my life and nobody knows me.” – Shawn’s friend (50:27)

• On Not Quitting:

  “All you have to do is get good at not quitting.” – Quoted by Shawn (57:01)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:48–03:13 — Shawn’s injury, misdiagnosis, and life-changing news
• 06:47–10:35 — Physically, mentally crawling out of despair; “Kiss the fire” mentality and the science of movement
• 13:18–14:40 — Telling his children about his diagnosis
• 23:19–26:17 — Time with family and prioritizing presence after diagnosis
• 28:28–33:37 — On re-finding hope, smaller dreams, and the wisdom of “finish lines”
• 34:25–40:51 — Brokenness, shame, and how vulnerability helps others
• 48:01–51:36 — Building and sustaining deep, meaningful friendships
• 53:01–56:21 — Perseverance, parenting through adversity, and the impact on Shawn’s sons
• 59:15–59:56 — Childhood memory: playing baseball outside with stepdad

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Movement matters—for kids and adults, cross-body movement (like boxing or play) strengthens the brain and supports emotional health.
• You can re-dream at any moment; sometimes, small finish lines are enough to sustain hope.
• Vulnerability is contagious and builds resilient relationships, both in families and in communities.
• Community doesn’t happen by accident—someone must take initiative, and real connection requires honesty.
• Brokenness is not a disqualification; it’s where real relationship and deep growth happen.
• Present-moment living isn’t just for those with big challenges; it’s wisdom for everyone.

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This episode is a vivid, moving conversation about clinging to hope, moving your body, loving boldly, staying present, and letting your brokenness connect you to others. Shawn’s story—of learning not just to survive, but to thrive and lead with vulnerability—is a timely encouragement for anyone facing hard “what ifs,” busy seasons, or the everyday challenges of parenting and being human.

Transcript

[Sean]

When did making plans get this complicated?

[Jenny Urch]

It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans.

[Sean]

Send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets.

[Jenny Urch]

Mom 60th and never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn [e-mail] welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Urch. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside, and I have author and pastor here today who had a new book that just came out. This is gonna go the week that the book launches. It is called Kiss the seven ways to get back up when you want to give up, which is so relatable. Shawn, welcome.

[Sean]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Jenny Urch]

This is an intense book.

[Sean]

It is. Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

It starts outside, actually. It starts with you. Wake surfing. Yes. And you're wake surfing. Super fun. I'm like, highly recommend any of this fun stuff that's outside and really active. You know, what a cool thing that there's fun things for adults to do outside. So you're wake surfing, you have a little bit of an injury, and then this leads you down this path. I mean, it's not related to wake surfing, I guess, right? It just happened.

[Sean]

Well, no, but interestingly enough, I think God used an awake surfing injury to help me find out something that was going on that. That was way more serious that I probably wouldn't have found out about quite yet.

[Jenny Urch]

So that's what. Yeah, so. So you go to physical therapy, you know, you're just kind of like in this process of healing up. You got this injury and your hand starts to tremor.

[Sean]

Yeah, I had. I tore my bicep, had a surgery, was. Was in a brace for six weeks, started doing physical therapy. And yeah, my. My left hand was shaking. And the physical therapist thought, well, that's totally normal. It's probably atrophy. You know, you've been in a br. And it wasn't until a couple months into physical therapy where she was still noticing that. And so one day she said, you know, Sean, you might want to go see a neurologist. Which I thought, well, that's the weirdest thing ever, you know, but yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah, you're like, this is super weird. A neurologist. You're like, I just have this hand tremor. So you go. You go to the neurologist, and this is where your life changes. This is where news comes out of nowhere. What do they Tell you.

[Sean]

So when I went, they had me do some. They said they wanted to do some scans. And, you know, so I knew they were doing scans of my neck and head. I honestly thought they were testing me for a pinched nerve. I had had a pinched nerve before. I had gotten some injections in my neck before for some pain down my arm just from lifting weights and things where I had just, you know, getting old and injured. And so I thought that's what we were going to find out. And so my wife was with me, and I think we were actually going to go on, like, a day date afterwards. And I was just assuming they were going to tell me I had a pinched nerve. And he said, I'm so sorry, you don't have a pinched nerve. You have an incurable brain disease. And it was like, it's so shocking.

[Jenny Urch]

It's so shocking from pinched nerve to that. Shocking.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

And it was amazing that your wife was there, though, because didn't you say, like, your counselor was like, maybe your wife should go? And you're like, okay, you know, you weren't even thinking about it.

[Sean]

You know, now that I look back on it, I think counselor realized they might have more serious news for me. But he didn't say anything to me. And so he had asked me. He's like, is Jill going to go with you? And I was like, I don't think so. And he's like, I just think it'd be good, you know, just in case, you know, they have info that you need to write down. She's. She's more organized than you are. And so I had her go. And yeah, thank God she was, because, you know, she grabbed my hand right as the doctor started speaking. And. And I remember just. I was trying to wrap my mind around what he was saying, and I was like, wait a second. And I said, what's. Like, what's best case scenario? And he goes, that we find lung cancer. And I said, wait, wait, what? And he said, well, at least then, you know, that that could explain some of the symptoms that you're having, and at least that would be something that we could go fight. But if it's what I think it is, you can't do anything about it. And, yeah, so we went. We sat out in the parking lot of this hospital in my truck, and I cried. And I remember one of the first things I said to my wife was, I said, I'm so sorry, because, you know, I don't know what this is going to do to me as a husband. I don't know what this is going to mean for our three boys as a dad. And so I was just shocked, scared, mad, sad, a whole bunch of things all at once.

[Jenny Urch]

I talked to this woman one time who was in the Holocaust and she's written these incredible books. Her name is Dr. Edith Eger.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Jenny Urch]

And she had this moment and she was in the line where they were separating. Where were you going to go? You're going to go to the work camp or. I. I think the other line, they were sending people to their death. And she got up to the front of the line and she was with her mom. And she said her mom looked young. And they asked, is this your mom? And she said yes. And they separated them. And then the mom was in the, you know, the line, I think, where they went to the crematorium. Yeah. And she said, if I would have said sister, she would have stayed with me.

[Sean]

And she.

[Jenny Urch]

She talked about how it's just like this moment of severing, like how sometimes you cross over this threshold. And that is like that right there was the moment her whole life changed. Like, if. And she just, even to this day, she's like, if I just would have said sister, like, if I could just take that, like, quick moment back and said, sister. And it just changes your whole life. And I think, I think people are scared of moments like that, John. Like, they're scared of moments of like going to the doctor and thinking it's a pinched nerve. And then it's something that you could never even imagine is. It's only been a couple years since that happened. Right?

[Sean]

It's a little over three years.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah. So not that long.

[Sean]

No, not long.

[Jenny Urch]

And. And you're hoping that it's a misdiagnosis. You go and talk to someone else about it and they're like, no, this is correct. So what I thought was really interesting is that you have done really cool physical things to help yourself. I just thought actually that was one of the most remarkable things. And for this audience who's trying to kind of be active and get kids outside and staff screen. Yes. I actually think boxing was interesting to me is you talked about how it's really only affecting one side of your brain.

[Sean]

Yep.

[Jenny Urch]

And then that affects the other side of your body. And so I've talked to different, like, you know, PhDs and things who talk about that, the connections between the two sides, you can strengthen them through all this cross body movement like boxing.

[Sean]

So.

[Jenny Urch]

So can you talk about the crawling out of the helplessness? Because, you know, I Think most people would just want to be like, well, I'm done.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

I can't dream about anything. I can't plan for anything. Yeah, but you crawled out, and you still live, and you still go back to church, and you. You're doing, you know. Is it called boxing?

[Sean]

Yep.

[Jenny Urch]

You got a friend that's like.

[Sean]

He's a UFC trainer, so he trains. It's.

[Jenny Urch]

It's.

[Sean]

It's. It's boxing. It's also, you know, elbows and knees and kicks and all kinds of stuff.

[Jenny Urch]

But, I mean, amazing things for you. Amazing things. For cross body, mixed martial arts, you end up doing that. So for the person who's in the pit, how did you start to crawl out of it?

[Sean]

So I was in exactly what you just said. I really felt like I had just crawled into a pit. In fact, our church was doing a. A fast where we were, and so I was. I was fasting sugar, I had said for three weeks, and I went to the gas station on the way home and got a box of Krispy Kremes, and I was like, this fast is over. I went and sat on my back porch in my house, and I had that feeling of, I just want to give up on everything. I don't want to talk to people. I don't want to go back to church. I don't want to do my job. I don't want to hear anyone trying to encourage, like, nothing. I just felt like I wanted to give up on everything. And this coach who you just mentioned, who coaches ufc, he's. I'm in a small group with seven other guys, and he's one of them. And he called me, and I told him the diagnosis and what the doctor had said. You know, I'm just crying. I'm falling apart. And he goes, well, he goes, okay. He goes, we're gonna. We're gonna kiss this fire and walk away whistling. And I went, huh, that sounds cool, Coach. I don't know what that means. And he goes. He goes, I'm not saying it's not gonna be hot. I'm not saying you're not gonna get burned. I'm saying you're not gonna walk away from this. This is not gonna steal your peace. It's not gonna steal your joy. It's not gonna change your calling. You're gonna get through this. You're gonna be stronger on the other side, and I'm gonna be with you. And then he said it again. He goes, we're going to kiss this fire and walk away whistling. And so that became that that phrase, I never planned on writing a book on it. That phrase just kind of became something in me. Every day when I would want to give up, want to sit around and have pity parties for myself, that I would remind myself, I can do this. I can do hard things. And today I'm not going to give up. Today I'm going to kiss the fire. And I'm gonna. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna be the dad I want to be today, because I can do that today. I'm gonna go be the husband I want to be today. But the boxing thing is fascinating. What they, you know, they don't know. It's. It's in the Parkinson's family, and they don't. They can't tell you where it came from. They don't even know if it's a genetic. To their best knowledge. Currently, there's no cure. You know, I go to the Mayo Clinic multiple times a year, and I take medicine four times a day right now. But one of the things that they have found that they think can slow down the degeneration process is something like boxing. And it's because it.

[Jenny Urch]

You.

[Sean]

You are physically exhausted, but your mind's also working really hard at the same time. It's not like just running in a straight line where you kind of just kind of go blank and don't really think.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah.

[Sean]

You know, in. In boxing, I'm not only physically exhausted, but I'm worried about my footwork and my defense and my counter strikes and, like, it's. It's all. And so they're like. It's almost as if with your activity, you push back against the parts of your brain that want to degenerate that day. And you say, you don't get to degenerate today. You got too much to do.

[Jenny Urch]

It's so interesting. Okay. I think you would be super interested in this woman. This is, like, completely probably outside of things that you would read or even be interested in. But her name is Dr. Carla Hannaford, and she wrote this book. That's why I was so interested in your story with the boxing. She wrote this book. It's called Smart Moves, why learning is not all in your head. And she had statistic in there because, you know, we talk about movement getting outside, and it's like, oh, it seems like it's a frivolous thing. Doesn't really matter. You know, you should do all the SAT prep beforehand. But she talks about how movement and learning are really interconnected. And she has this statistic, Sean, that elderly people who dance regularly have a 76% less chance of developing dementia. I'm like, that's a huge stat, 76% less chance. And what she relates it to is complex movement that complex movements enhance and protect, protect brain function. And when you do cross body movement, like crawling, like when kids crawl.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

It's doing is, it's wiring the two sides of the brain together down the middle and it's making the brain stronger. So it is so intriguing to me that movement is what's prescribed to help and it just reminds people that in their day to day life, this is going to strengthen your brain for the long haul. So where are you at with it now? It's been three years.

[Sean]

So you know, because, so my, whether or not it's genetic, I, I don't know. But my, my grandfather did have Parkinson's. But you know, most people, if they get something like that, they would get that diagnosis like in their mid-70s or something. So because it's my reality just so much earlier, they don't really, they can't tell me how fast it will progress because everyone's different. And so in that first doctor's appointment, I did ask him, I said, well, what's worst case scenario? And he said, well, you know, we know where this goes. You know, he's like, where it ends is, you know, it ends with your wife having to feed and change you. And so where I'm at today, I take medicine four times a day. I go to the doctor a handful of times a year at Mayo Clinic and I box weekly, I work out every day. And I'm just trying to do the best I can to sort of keep moving forward and, and keep dreaming and, you know, keep living day by day. Because the, what I think a lot of us want to do is the unknowns and the what ifs can kind of paralyze you.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah.

[Sean]

And that's where I felt like I was at first when I got this. I didn't want to do anything and I didn't want to be around anyone. And it took me some, some help and some help from some other people to realize like, well, you're alive today. So go chase down your dreams today because nobody knows what's going to happen tomorrow.

[Jenny Urch]

It's true. Yeah, it's true. My grandma always used to say, lord willing. She said it before everything she said. She said, lord willing. How do you feel today?

[Sean]

Physically? Fine. I feel it in my body every day. The medicine does a fairly good job. The medicine isn't too, it's not the hopes of taking the medicine aren't to make it go away or even slow the progression. It's just symptom management. And so for the, you know, for the most part, it does a pretty good job of managing most of the symptoms. And so if you look close enough, like I'm, you know, I speak on the weekends at this church I work at. And so if you look close enough, you know, you could find things. And I feel them all the time, but the medicine does a fairly good job of masking most of it right now.

[Jenny Urch]

How'd you tell your boys?

[Sean]

Man, that was the hardest part. And one of the boys was at college and I had made the mistake. I didn't. Again, I thought I was going to get a diagnosis for, like, a neck injection for a pinched nerve. So I had told my son one day, oh, I have a doctor's appointment. Well, he called me back later and was like, hey, dad, just, oh, how was your doctor's appointment? And I was like, oh. And I was like, I can't lie to him, but I also don't want to talk to him about this.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah.

[Sean]

And so. But I. I did. I ended up telling him what was going on because I just didn't want to lie to him. And so he knew. And it was. It was actually, it was. It was so hard on my heart because I told you, you know, our church does this thing at the beginning of the year where for three weeks we'll fast something. So he called me one morning and he said, dad, I'm. I'm fasting caffeine in the mornings and I'm praying for you. And I was, ah. The other two boys, it was. It was not too long after Christmas. I did. I wanted to get through Christmas without telling them. And then we sat him down and, and just told them and. And you know, that they didn't really know what to think. Our youngest son at the time was about 12, 13, and my wife had. Had found his phone after he went to bed and he was googling, what is Parkinson's? You know, and, yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

That would be the hardest part.

[Sean]

That was. That was the toughest part. But, you know, what I have learned is the kids are resilient and they're stronger than we think sometimes.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah.

[Sean]

About six years ago, I had to leave work for a few months because I was having real bad panic attacks. And I remember sitting down to tell my boys, and they were really pretty little, and I was telling one of them, I was like, I'm so sorry. I'm gonna have to go check myself into this anti anxiety treatment center for a little bit, and I'm gonna miss some of your football games. And I'm thinking, like, my boys are little. They don't know I have anxiety. And one of my boys says to me, he said, dad, we've watched you struggle our whole life. He's like, go get help. And so they see, you know, they know they're. They're smart. And so. But yeah, that was the tough part because I just love my boys.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah. It's a beautiful thing you write about, though, that it's made you a better dad. Yeah. And what a thing. You know what I love about this time of year? The air gets crisp, the days feel cozier, and suddenly I realize, oh, right, the entire family is coming over. Hosting is such a joy, but it can also feel like a marathon if your home isn't quite ready. This year, I got ahead it all with Wayfair, and honestly, I don't know why I waited so long. I found the cutest light fixture, some wreaths, and a new comforter set for our guest room for when our son's friend came and stayed with us for a week. And that made it feel like a little bed and breakfast. Everything came fast, shipping was free, and it all looked even better in person. Wayfair really has everything you need to make your home holiday ready. Like Christmas trees, cookware, throw blankets, twinkle lights. Even those little touches that make your guests say wow. Whether you're hosting family dinners, cozy movie nights, or welcoming guests from out of town or, Wayfair makes it easy to make your space shine without blowing the budget. So don't wait until the week before Christmas. Start now. Enjoy the process and make your home a place you can truly settle into this season. Get organized, refreshed, and ready for the holidays. For way less, head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W-A Y-F A I R.com Wayfair Every style, every home. Hello, friends. Jenny here. October 10th is World Mental Health Day, and this year we're saying a big heartfelt thank you to therapists. Think about it. Behind every story of healing is a therapist who showed up, who asked the right questions, who provided a safe space to let the tears fall or to celebrate a small win. Those moments change lives. I've had them myself. Sometimes it's just one gentle insight that lingers and helps you take the next step forward. Better Help wants to honor those connections and the therapists who make them possible over 5 million people worldwide have been helped on their mental health journeys with Better Help, making it the largest online therapy platform with over 30,000 licensed therapists. They're committed to matching you with the right one so you don't have to navigate that part alone. And if your first match isn't quite right, you can switch anytime. So today let's pause to thank the therapists who want to make the world a better place. So today let's pause to thank the therapists who make the world a better place. And if something's weighing on you, know that talking to someone can help. Remember, World Mental Health Day is this month and we're celebrating the therapists who've helped millions of people take a step forward. If you are ready to find the right therapist for you, Better Help can help you start that journey. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com 1000hours that's BetterHelp H lp.com 1000hours if you have ever opened your Bible and wondered what does this passage mean for me today? The new NIV Application B from Zondervan was designed with that exact question in mind. This Bible is packed with thousands of study notes drawn from the best selling NIV Application Commentary series. I love that it pairs original meaning notes which helps you understand Scripture in its historical and cultural context, with application notes that show you how to live out those truths in your daily life right now in the modern world. Every book of the Bible comes with introductions for perspective and application, character profiles that make the people of Scripture come alive, and even question questions for growth that encourage reflection and deeper conversations. There are also full color pages and special articles that explore the very character of God himself. It's like having a trusted guide walk with you through scripture, helping you see what God's word meant then and what it means for your life today. Find out more@nivapplication bible.com that's nivapplicationbible.com what a thing that out of that you become a better dad. You talked actually in this book about Levi Lusko's dad. And I know Levi. This is the craziest story ever. Sean so I got invited out to this place in Moab. It's called the Moab Adventure. This is so random. So I get invited out to this place, it's called the Moab Adventure center and we're in Michigan. I like have hardly ever been out west. Like maybe when I was a kid with my family, not been out west. This Moab Adventure center invites us out, me and one kid, which. That's tricky. We've got five kids. So I'm like, you know, who do you pick? Nobody else actually wanted to go, except for one of my daughters. So it worked out well. We're going to go out to Moab. We're going to spend five days rafting down what's called the Green River. And you, like, camp on the side of the rivers. No cell service. It is an incredible trip. You fly in in this little prop plane, and then they offer all these other adventures. And we went on this Hummer, Hummer up in Utah. It's like all these. They're called fins, I think, where it's really, like, narrow passages, and you're in this Hummer and it's like going up on one wheel. We were in a Hummer with Levi.

[Sean]

That does not surprise me.

[Jenny Urch]

So he takes one kid wherever he goes if he's traveling for work, and then they go adventure wherever they going. So I didn't. We didn't know each other. And so at one point, everyone gets out and they have, like, a snack. You know, you think it's going to be a good snack, and it's like fruit snacks or something. You, like, have a snack. And everyone's like, oh, I'm a teacher. I'm a this. And he says, I'm an author. Which is interesting, right? Because he is a pastor, too. But he said, I'm an author. And he said, I wrote this book. It's called Marvel at the Moon. And I was like, oh, I have a podcast. It's about getting kids outside. And so maybe you should come on. So then after we left, then everyone was like, I love that Levi Lusko. And I was like, oh, I, like, was so out of the loop. I'm like the most out of the loop person. Someone came on our podcast the other day, and they have been to what's called Coachella or something. I was like, I not heard of that. What's that? And Josh was like, you better not have asked it. And I was like, I didn't know what it was. So I'm just out of the loop. I'm out of the loop. So I met Levi, and then I end up speaking at this conference with him and just really have gotten to know him very little, but in a. Him and Jenny, and it's just been a really wonderful experience. And you talk about his. His dad in your book, Levi's dad, and about just how much he impacted you. Yeah, it just goes to show the power of a father oh, man. And the same thing with your own voice. It's like, here you are. And. And Levi's dad walked through really hard things. At the end. You talk about how. But even still, he went to the Passion Conference, and he was there. And you say he's one of the most encouraging humans you'd ever met, that he never talked about himself. He was wealthy in relationships and purpose because he lived a life full of meaning, even though he had had a tough life. So can you talk about. You know, I just. I think we live like we have forever.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

And when we're reminded that we don't, it helps us to be a better person, a better dad, a better husband. Can you talk about how that's changed your day to day? Like, if they ask you to go shoot hoops. Yeah.

[Sean]

Yeah. So. So I met Levi's dad a few years back. Levi and Jenny were like, hey, we're gonna take our families on vacation together. We're like, fantastic. Well, Levi plans the trip, and it was one of those rafting trips, and it was a rat. You know, canoe paddle 10 miles a day and set up tents every night. I'm like, oh, what have you gotten me into? Anyways, his dad was on the trip, and we just got to know each other, and he's amazing. Amazing man. And. Yeah, so. So the part that you're talking about, there's one part where me and my wife went to Levi's father's funeral, Chip's funeral, and I did. I watched person after person after person after person. And then the kids and grandkids and all these relatives, they couldn't stop talking about how their lives were different because of the way Chip had lived. And it wasn't about money, it wasn't about stuff. It wasn't about a career. It was all about. He spent time with me, he prayed with me, he encouraged me. He was there for me and so impactful that, no kidding, I leaned over to my wife in the middle of the funeral and I said, I know what I want someday. I want to have a funeral like this someday. But, yeah, I think us parents, we're so on the go, we're so busy, and there's so many opportunities for me that I could be doing something with one of the boys. But in my mind, I'm thinking, well, man, I'm really busy right now. But, like, I could totally do that on Wednesday. And this diagnosis, the funny thing is, is this may not be the thing that takes me out. We don't know what's going to Happen in a month from now. Right. Or next week or whatever.

[Jenny Urch]

So.

[Sean]

But it helped remind me I've only got so much time with my boys, and so I don't miss many opportunities now to go out and shoot hoops, to go watch their game, to go wrestle with them, to go just whatever. Because I am reminded, like. Like, I don't know how long things will be great. And for me, with this thing, it's. It's not even just, I don't know how long I'll live. It's. I don't know how long I'll be able to play basketball with my boys.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah.

[Sean]

And I. You know, that's one of our favorite things to do. And so it's helped me just sort of go, well, I got today. And so I'm gonna do that today.

[Jenny Urch]

Isn't it interesting, Sean, that you can push back against that? Because the reason that people don't do it is not because they don't want to. It's because they feel like they don't have enough time. And yet when you look at your life and have this perspective that I'm. You know, I may not have as much time as I thought I would in the long term and in the short term, even to do this. This different movement that all of a sudden your whole perspective changes and you do have the time. So, like, you actually do have it, and you can choose to have it or not choose to have it, and everybody can do that. Like, your life hasn't fallen apart because you chose to play basketball instead of doing the other thing that you probably normally would have done instead of.

[Sean]

Yep. It's funny. It's. You're right. It doesn't change how much time we have. It just changes how we prioritize it, I think.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah. And then you say it improved your relationship with your wife.

[Sean]

Yeah. When we went out after we got this, we went and sat in the truck, and I was, you know, crying and telling my wife, I'm sorry and all this stuff. And I'm the emotional one in our family. She's the rock.

[Jenny Urch]

So I know she's kind of like the hero. I was like. I was like, jill is a hero.

[Sean]

He is. She reaches in the back seat, she grabs her Bible and just starts reading. And then she just looks at me and she goes, I'm not afraid. I'm not going anywhere. Sounds like we need a miracle. So I'm start praying for one. Like, that's how she is. And it does. I. You know, I. I know for me, I've always, I think in. In my, in my dream world, I'm going to create this great, comfortable life for me and my family. And then what I have learned, you know, we've been married 26 years now. And what I've learned is because it's the hardest things that we've gone through that have brought us the closest.

[Jenny Urch]

Wow, that's really powerful. And, you know, speaking being a pastor, you're dealing with a lot of people that have a lot of what ifs in their life.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

And then you're walking there right alongside them.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

Can you talk about the. The dreams? How do your dreams change? I thought this was a really touching and deep part of the book when you're like, oh, my wife just likes conversation topics. And I would imagine that there would be a lot of different types of conversation topics that go awry in a situation like this. You know, it's like, hey, even, like, what are your financial goals? Like that, that type of thing. Like, you wouldn't even think about it. But then you're like, well, wait a minute, what are my financial goals in this situation? And so, you know, you're just getting asked, like, what are you dreaming about? That's like a normal question. Where do you see yourself in five years? Where do you see yourself in 10 years? Like, this really is going to throw you off. Can you talk about how I thought that this was such good advice, like, about having just smaller, shorter wins, dreaming again, looking forward to something that's even closer. It doesn't have to be so far off. And yeah, in some ways I think that's really biblical.

[Sean]

Yeah, for sure. And, you know, there's this verse that, that, you know, I didn't grow up in church. And so I, in fact, I was invited to a church when I was 24. And so. But now being around church for a while, there's a verse I. I've heard a lot, which is Jeremiah 29:11. For I know the plans I have for you. Plans to give you a hope and a future. And what I never really took the time to dig into was the circumstances in which, like that promise was given to a group of people who were going through a really bad situation. They'd been hauled off into exile. Family members had been taken as captives. Everything that they would have had dreams for their own life would have been changed and ruined. And God looks at him and says, I got a future for you. I want you to start to have some hope and dream for your future. And yeah, me and my wife were at Dinner one night. And she does. She. She has this little box of conversation starters and she brings them on, on vacation with us. And, you know, she's. She's not a tomboy at all, which is so funny because we have three boys and they all have played sports and, and so. But she'll bring him. And as soon as she brings them out, of course, me and all the boys are like, oh, come on. But she loves conversation starters. So, yeah, we were sitting at dinner one night, she just was like, well, what are you dreaming of right now? And this is probably about six months, maybe to a year after the diagnosis. And it was the weirdest thing. I was almost embarrassed. I've always been a dreamer. I've always been a let's go take a mountain, let's go dream big dream. And I sat there for a second and I was like, nothing. And she's like, well, why not? And I, and I, we're just having a real conversation. I was like, this, this diagnosis has just like, rocked me. Like, I don't know what's going to happen. And so I don't know what I can do in five years, you know, so it's like, oh, we're going to dream of retiring and traveling. Well, I don't know if I can.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah.

[Sean]

And I just said, I don't. I don't know if I have any dreams right now. And that was a sad realization to go. Like, I have gotten in this funk and that, that I actually stopped looking forward to anything. And so my counselor was like, well, it doesn't have to be like, you know, you're going to go to an island. It can be like, hey, let's look at the calendar and go, hey, we've got two or three months here that are really busy. So now what we do is I create little finish lines for myself. So anytime I have a little busy season, I'll create a little. Sometimes it's a one day, sometimes it's two or three day, but just a little finish line on the calendar. And it's going to be, me and Jill are going to go on a date. Me and Jill are going to go to Phoenix for a couple days, whatever. I'm going to take one of the boys on a trip just for two nights. We're just going to go somewhere and have a good dinner and talk boy stuff, you know, we were created to dream. And there's something that I think starts to feel very wrong in our souls when we're not filled with any sort of hope or dreams. And so now if you were to look at my yearly calendar, I have little finish lines all throughout my calendar where, where I'm going to do something with Jill or something with the boys.

[Jenny Urch]

There's so much wisdom in that. That's such an incredible takeaway and it's such a huge life change. You know, I, someone had said one time that retirement's not in the Bible. And I feel like culturally that is what we all march toward is like this retirement, this bliss, whatever the retirement community is, you're all set financial. Actually, the year that you retire is the most dangerous year of your life. More people die that year. They lose their purpose. And, and so then someone had said, this is not a biblical concept. This is a cultural concept. And so it is so much more biblical to live like you're living, to live more daily, to live more like what's right in front of me. You know, the Bible talks about, give us our this day, our daily bread, or the word is a lamp unto our feet. I mean, what do you get with a lamp? You get like three steps that, you know, that's it. There's no flashlight, not a floodlight. No, you don't get any of that. And even all the verses about the morning, just verse after verse, I interview Ellie Holcomb. She's like this singer just the other day and her devotional, it was like so many of the verses were in the morning, in the morning I lay my request before you and I wait in expectation. It's a dailiness. And so I'm totally taking this into my life, Sean, with this, these finish lines. You say busy seasons feel overwhelming. Everybody is going to relate to this. Busy seasons feel overwhelming because they don't have a finish line. I wonder if you feel like you are drowning because you don't feel like you are swimming toward anything. You, you. I mean, these, like, listen to the, the moms listening in. They got, you know, you're in that season where you got a three year old and a one year old. You are drowning.

[Sean]

Yes.

[Jenny Urch]

Like, what am I swimming toward? I've got years and years and years of, you know, these little children that need me. And you say you need to give yourself wins at the end of busy seasons. That way, no matter how crazy life feels, you have some finish lines at the end of the craziness to look forward to. I think it's really incredible life advice. And wild as it is, it's wild how these moments of wisdom teach us to number our days that we may have a heart of wisdom.

[Sean]

Yep.

[Jenny Urch]

They permeate outward. So here you are in this most devastating situation and you're like, I'm, I'm going to give up. How can I go be a pastor? How can I go do these things I'm supposed to do? And yet now you have all of these inspiring ways to live that will inspire other people in whatever situation that they're in, whether they're in the what ifs or they're just drowning in their day to day. And I think that's an important, important thing to talk about too, because. Okay, it was like your friends that kind of stepped in, right, that they're like, you're not coming to small group. What's going on? You know, like, where are you? Tell me everything. But that one of the people said, because you're like, I'm, I'm out. Like, I've been disqualified. And you know, I'm, I'm in too much pain and I'm pretty. This is all screwed up. And someone says, God only uses broken people because what other kinds are there?

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

Oh, it's so good.

[Sean]

Yeah. So, so that was, you know, I mentioned to you that about six years ago I took some time off work because I was having a bunch of panic attacks. I couldn't get my anxiety under control. And interestingly enough, now when I got this diagnosis, they actually, their hype, their hypothesis at the Mayo Clinic is I started having panic attacks three years earlier because that's when it started happening. But I didn't know what was going on, but my brain was losing massive amounts of dopamine. And so that's what caused the panic attacks three years prior. It's a hypothesis, but they think like very possible.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah, well, that you talk about that, don't you say it messes with the dopamine. Like even some of your mornings are really bad.

[Sean]

Yeah, yeah. So. But what was the question? I got totally sidetracked.

[Jenny Urch]

So that. So, so.

[Sean]

Oh, the broken people.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Yep. So, so anyway, so, so I, I had taken some time off work, checked myself into this inpatient anti anxiety treatment center. I'd been off work for a while. I was about to go back and I was sitting with it with a counselor who's also become a friend. And I said, man, I don't, I don't know what I can like tell the church and how much. There were some pastors who had said, you know, be careful how much you tell people because you don't want them to lose faith in you. And I just remember thinking, man, that, that sucks because I Had hid my anxiety and depression from my wife, from my family, from my friends, to the best of my ability, because I thought I was being heroic. I thought I was saving them from having to deal with my brokenness. And I had gotten to this place where I was like, there's so much freedom in telling my wife everything. There was so much freedom in telling my boys what was going on. And I didn't want to hide anything anymore. And this one other pastor I met with right before I went back, he goes, you know what? He goes, goes, man, forget that. He goes, you know what? You know what people want to know? They want to know your house sucks too, sometimes. So, anyways, I was going back, and I said to my counselor, I said, man, I don't know if I can go back because, like, I'm not fixed yet. Like, I'm better, I'm way healthier, way stronger, way more sense of peace than I ever thought I would have. But I'm not perfect. Like, I'm still kind of screwed up. And. And he did. He said. He goes. He goes, hey, Sean. He goes, if you were God. And he goes, and you could pick two people, one of two people to run this church you run. He goes, you. He's like one of them. Like, they're like. They're, like, perfect, bro. Like, they got everything put together. They don't worry. They're strong. In fact, they're so good, they don't ever even have to really check in with you. They got this. Or there's this other guy that is so broken that he just knows his. His only chance of leading this thing is if he leans on you every single day and talks with you every day. And he goes, sorry. He goes, which one would you want? And I go, I think I'd want the broken guy. And he goes, yeah. And he goes. He goes, sean, God only uses broken people because what other kinds are there? And it's so brilliant and so true and such a great reminder. Because, you know, when I was having all the anxiety and the depression and even now this diagnosis. One of my biggest dreams in life, I never met my real dad growing up. One of my biggest dreams in life, growing up was to be a dad is because I just didn't. I had never met mine. And so I was. I've always thought I gotta shield my children from my deficiencies because I want them to think I'm a superhero. But, man, we've gotten so much closer in the last few years, and they know I'm just not perfect. But there's, there's been real relationship in that. It's been cool.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah, yeah. And they'll take that with them. They'll take that with them because everybody has hard things. And I think one of the biggest things is how do we walk through it? And if you can walk through it together, what a, what a more powerful thing. You walk through it together.

[Sean]

And obviously it depends on how old your children are and what the situation is. And there's all the. But, but for us at this stage, it. Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

How come you never met your dad?

[Sean]

Oh, you want, you want the. I'll give you a 60 second cliff notes. My mom was a 17 year old heroin addict and when her, the biological father found out he had gotten her pregnant, he moved to another state and had just, it was just never heard from again. I've never met him. And then she was, you know, a teenager with a baby and an addiction and didn't know what to do. And so she, she took me in a car seat and put me on a stranger's porch in a random neighborhood with a note pinned to my shirt saying, would you take care of them? And she went and jumped off of a bridge into oncoming traffic to kill herself on her on a freeway. And that was crazy. I'm sorry. This got really intense all of a sudden, but it was crazy. She didn't die, but she broke like all the bones in her legs and weight for everything from the waist down. And then when I was 2, she married her drug dealer and, and so just super dysfunction, dysfunctional upbringing. But I always had this like feeling of like, man, I wasn't, I wasn't really wanted. I wasn't kind of, I was an accident and I'd never met my dad. And my mom tried to get away from me but couldn't. And so, I don't know, I think there was something in that. But all growing up, I just was like, I always wanted to be a professional baseball player and be a dad. Those are the two things I wanted to do. You could ask me when I was six years old. That's have told you. I think so. So, yeah, so I've always, I've always looked forward to being a dad.

[Jenny Urch]

That's really heavy, Sean. People have really hard lives.

[Sean]

Wow.

[Jenny Urch]

So the drug dealer was your stepdad then? And you talk about in the book how he just like never said good job or I'm proud of you. You're, you're out doing all these, you're, you're an athlete. I, you know, someone said the other day I talked to these authors that wrote a book called the. I think it's called the Away Game about youth sports. And they said that the. The biggest reason kids quit sports is the ride home.

[Sean]

No way.

[Jenny Urch]

Because the parent is like this. That the other thing, you should have done this better. And that's how your stepdad was.

[Sean]

I never heard that before till you just said that. And I. But that was my experience.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

Wow.

[Sean]

And so I would. I. I collected trophies in my room and they lined the whole wall around my room. And I think, I think the whole collection was. I just want my stepdad to be proud of me. I think that's what the whole thing was. And I just never felt that.

[Jenny Urch]

Do you think your biological dad is still alive?

[Sean]

I don't know. I don't know.

[Jenny Urch]

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[Sean]

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[Jenny Urch]

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[Sean]

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[Jenny Urch]

I'm always really impressed, Sean. When people can go through, like, the hardest of circumstances and not have anything modeled for them, there's no modeling. And it's like the opposite of modeling. Right. It's like what you don't want for your whole childhood, and then there's like, identity crisis there, and you're, you know, you feel like you don't live up to it, and then you don't get saved until you're in your 20s. So to have that spiritual father. There's this woman, Dr. Meg Meeker, and she talks a lot about how God, the father, steps in a lot. You know, like, with kids, she says it really helps. She has this book about raising boys. And I was reading, like, I read it, and I thought it was going to be about, like, oh, they need rough and tumble play and that. That's all in there. But she has a whole chapter about how they need God. It's just like, boys Need God. I think that's what the chapter is called. And I was surprised about it because she's just kind of like, you know, she works with family. She's like a therapist.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

And I asked her about it, and she was like, it's true. I wrote it because it's true.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

The kids need God. And. And especially in these cases where the fathers are crummy or the fathers are not in the picture, like the God, the father is really sustaining for them. But you didn't have that as a child either.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

Because that doesn't happen until you're in your 20s. How in the world do you become the father that you want to be when you have nothing modeled for you?

[Sean]

You know, that was a huge fear for me. I was. I was afraid to get married and I was afraid to have kids, although I wanted both, because I was like, I just never seen. I've never seen a good. Like, I want that. And it's interesting because we have a lot of young staff members now, and a lot of guys will come and talk to me when they find out they're. They're going to be a dad, and they'll. They'll be honest and tell me, you know, that they're nervous and. And I, you know, I find myself often saying things like, if you really want to be a good dad and you try hard, hard, you probably will be, yeah. I think God has a way of just helping you figure it out when you really want to be. And you try hard, because when you do, you'll find yourself asking advice and reading books and seeking wise counsel and finding the strength to do things that maybe were never modeled to you. Like, little things I got. You know, I remember the first time. I remember times when I would go, like, wait a sec, I just lost my tent temper with my boys, and I didn't do anything like, you know, like what I would have experienced as a kid growing up. But there was a hint of what I swore I would never be in, even in that voice tone. And I'd go, well. And I just went, well. I've never seen a parent do this, and I don't know if this is in the rules are allowed or not, but I would just go to my son's room and be like, hey, bro, I'm really sorry. I screwed up. So. Yeah, I think for me, it wasn't a. It was a. I definitely knew some things I didn't want to do, but I just. I wanted to be good, try hard, acknowledge mistakes, keep going. Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

Gosh, John, what a powerful message.

[Sean]

Sorry. I don't know why I'm so emotional.

[Jenny Urch]

Like, no one is without hope, though. That's the message. No one is without hope.

[Sean]

Yep.

[Jenny Urch]

If you have a degenerative brain disease, if you. You grew up with this stepdad that didn't love you and your mom was really young and, you know, almost didn't make it. And I mean, all that. My goodness, you got a drug dealer for a stepdad. No one is without hope. That's really powerful. You have friendships that play a lot into this, and you have this verse, and it's like, such a good verse. It's. The two are better than one. A chord of three strands is not easily broken. And then it says, pity.

[Sean]

Pity, the one who falls and has no one to help him up.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah, I don't know. I've not really thought about that verse too much like, that they are to be pitied. I mean, nobody wants to be pitied. Right. Pity is. Obviously, we're in this culture of loneliness, and I think especially so for men. Although I just have read that it's just like parents in general. Parents are really struggling with loneliness. And moms, you think they could find these mom groups, but often they don't. And then, you know, I'm like, no one's really learned how to build friendships. And so people are catty and, like, it's actually harder than you would think.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

So, you know, you have these friends, the ones that say, look, God uses broken people. Who else is there? And. And your friend Mark that calls up and is like, what's going on? And you're gonna. Then, now we're gonna do all this boxing and all of that. But. But can you talk about, like, you have to fight together. And you say you're still here today because of community. What's your advice for building that and keeping it.

[Sean]

You do have to fight for it. It doesn't happen accidentally now. You'll. You just go to school, you'll be around people. You find yourself in a job, in an office, in whatever. You go to your kids games, you sit in bleachers. Like, you'll find yourself in pockets all the time where you're around people. People. But we have to choose if we're willing to sort of go out of our way to be there for somebody when they hurt and let somebody be there for us when we hurt. And being willing to be vulnerable enough to create relationships when there's no hurt so that someday, if you do fall, you got someone who's there to pick you up or vice versa. And so I have a small group with seven guys, and it's the craziest thing to me because. Because they're all. Every one of them is a business owner of some sort. One's like a construction worker, and one owns a MMA gym, and a couple of them work in finances, and one owns.

[Jenny Urch]

And you're a pastor?

[Sean]

I'm a pastor, yeah. Like, it couldn't be. And they. These are some of the busiest people I know. They're so busy. But, like, we take extremely serious. We get together twice a month. And you just don't miss. Like, you know Mark, the UFC coach? During COVID they were doing fights in Abu Dhabi. He was in Abu Dhabi for six weeks. So he'd be on Zoom calls at 3am with us. So. Because, you know, we. But we take it very serious and we just have decided we're not going to do the thing where you spend time with your friends, but you don't actually talk about anything. We're going to just get after it. And so it's like, of course, there's a few. There's a small talk at the beginning, and some. The funniest thing happened to me today. Right. But the. Then it's like, how's your marriage? No, no, no. Like, really, how's your marriage? Like, how's you and your wife's communication Right now, like, what's the hardest thing? Right? Like, those are the conversations we're having with other guys twice a month. And that kind of.

[Jenny Urch]

Who is spearheading it?

[Sean]

One of the. One of my friends. He literally is a financial advisor for a living. And he said, I thought this was brilliant. He said, at his. And it's like, it's never too late. He, He. He said, at my 40th birthday, he. Because we're. We're all around 50. He said, at my 40th birthday party, he said, I had a huge party and everyone left. And he's like, this realization hit me that, like, I have a whole bunch of people in my life and nobody knows me.

[Jenny Urch]

Whoa. At 40.

[Sean]

At 40. And. And he's the kind of guy that he's the life of the party. He's good at everything he does. You know, he's just, just. And he said. He said, I got a lot of people in my life and nobody knows me. And so he just started calling some guys and said, would you be interested in doing a men's small group?

[Jenny Urch]

Would you be interested in knowing me?

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Would you want to know me? And. But honestly, that's what it is. And like, these are, like, real tough dude. Like, multiple. One of them was a college wrestler. One of them was a college football player. This guy trains UFC fighters like these. These are men's men, and they get together twice a week and go, Let me tell you the hardest thing about my life. Let me tell you what's hard for me spiritually. Let me tell you why I have doubts about God right now. Let me tell you what I'm trying to pray about right now. Let me tell you what's going on with me and my wife right now. Here's what happened with me and my daughter. And it was so hard. And how do you guys think I should handle this? Like, it's real talk, and they're all, like, the funnest people in the world. We also go hop on Brian's boat and go wake surfing, and we go up to the mountains together and. And shoot guns and play horseshoes and, like, it's just. But it's been game changing.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah, it's interesting. There's this lady named Dr. Madeline Levine, and she's written some really good books about kids and development and teens. And she says that the thing that teens say most to her when they come in for therapy is, nobody knows me. So what an interesting thing to go, like, through your whole. Like, that's half your life. 40 or you're halfway through, you know, Lord will. Lord willing.

[Sean]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

Lord willing, like your grandma would say. And so. And so. Yeah. So then he happened to find these other six guys who were like, okay, I'll do it. I'll do it. I talked to this lady, Jenny Allen. She wrote a book called find your people. And in the book, she's in this small group where they all lay out their own financial plans. I was like, I never heard of that. Like, next week, everyone bring your finances. We're gonna lay them out on the table.

[Sean]

Like, yeah, they're getting after it.

[Jenny Urch]

They are just going deep. It matters. If you could you really get that from your book. The book is called kiss the fire 7 Ways to get back up. When you want to give up, you really get that out of your book. That this community held you. And then in turn, I love this part where you talked about how if you would have given up. Like, there's a verse that says not to give up. You will reap a harvest. Yeah, don't give up. Don't give up. In time, you will reap the harvest. And you talked about that. Actually. You say crops don't grow overnight. You know, like, don't give up. You have to wait. Like, it's going to take a while. And. And because you didn't give up, then you talked about the opportunities that gave your boys at your church. Yeah, you talk about that.

[Sean]

Yes. So again, you know, when I was going through all that anxiety and depression stuff in 2019, I was really. I was embarrassed as a man. I was embarrassed as a dad, I was embarrassed as a husband. I was really embarrassed as a pastor. I'm thinking, like, I should be able to control this kind of stuff. I shouldn't be dealing with this stuff. And I was just. Just embarrassed and. And kind of wanted to, like, run from everybody and. Sorry, what? Tell me. Tell me the question again, because I started rambling.

[Jenny Urch]

Well, no, I think, like, you. So you're in this spot where you're embarrassed and you kind of give up, quit thing.

[Sean]

Yeah, that was part of it. Part of it was I did. I wanted to. Like, I wanted. I felt like, am I a hypocrite? Like, because I'm a pastor, I talk about Jesus. I talk about Jesus being able to bring peace and joy and hope. Hope into your life. And I don't think I have those things. And so maybe I shouldn't be a pastor. And that was all the stuff I was. I was going through. And I did want to quit. And it's Funny, I was writing the chapter that you just referenced in this Kiss the Fire book. And I write all over the place. So sometimes I'm sitting at a desk, sometimes I get thoughts while I'm driving. So I was driving home from the gym and I was sitting in my truck.

[Jenny Urch]

Truck.

[Sean]

And I was typing notes into my phone and I. And. And all of a sudden I look in my rear view mirror and I see both of my older two boys walking out of the garage getting into their cars. So I roll down my window and I'm like, where are you guys going? And I forgot it was Saturday night. And they're like, we're going to church. And one of them was interning over the summer at a little. Our Littleton campus. One of them was interning back home from summer. From college at our. At this Park Meadows campus. And they're both going to the church that night to help set up and just be a part of people hearing about Jesus. And you know me well enough already in this one hour that I got. My. Whatever keeps you from crying is broken. I don't have it anymore. So I start just. I'm typing into my phone about not quitting, and like, tears are hitting my phone while I'm typing. And I thought I could have given up, up on this whole God thing all together. And most of the people in my life would have been like, man, you've been through a lot of hard stuff. Like, I get it. And I remember thinking I could have. And my. My kid's story would be my. My dad was a pastor for a while, and then he really struggled with some. He went through some hard things and he kind of walked away from it, but, you know, I didn't. And I'm watching my kids go to church on a Saturday night. And I remember I typed there in my notes, I said, I don't know what they'd be doing on a Saturday night if I'd have given up three years ago, but I don't think it would be going to church on a Saturday night to tell people about Jesus. And it just was this cool reminder, like, God means what he Sundays. It's Galatians 6, 9, and says, yeah, at the proper time, you'll reap a harvest if you don't give up.

[Jenny Urch]

And.

[Sean]

And so that. That verse may be better than any embraces for me what Kiss the Fire is about. It's just that, like, we got something in us. We got. We. I think we were all hardwired with this fighter spirit. And every now and then we just have to decide. I'm just going to tap into it.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah. And we don't give up.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

Because it's not even about giving up on God. It's about giving up on being a.

[Sean]

Pastor, which, on whatever you feel like God's.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah. But in your case, I mean, that, that would be really enticing, you know, because here you are to shepherd people. But I think that you're a better shepherd when you can relate to the people that are around you, that you can lead better. You can lead better when you, when you know, when you understand. Yeah. I love that you had this, you had a quote in here from. I think it was one of your employees that was a marathon runner. And she said, I'm just, you know, I'm not like a great runner. I'm just really good at not quitting. All you have to do is get good at not quitting.

[Sean]

That's it.

[Jenny Urch]

And then you can see. You know, I think it's a blessing when you, when God is able to show you the harvest as they come. Okay, I'm changing the subject real quick as we're wrapping up. What is a lifted pickup truck?

[Sean]

I'm from Kansas, so it, it's, I don't even know all the parts, but it's basically like if a normal pickup truck was, like, right here, and like, here's your tires, a lifted pickup truck. And now you're trucks, like, up here. And so they, like, change the coils and springs and they make it and.

[Jenny Urch]

Higher people in Kansas.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Jenny Urch]

What's the point of it?

[Sean]

I think it makes us guys feel tougher.

[Jenny Urch]

There's no point.

[Sean]

It's not like, oh, no, no, it's not functional whatsoever. No, it's fully probably just hiding many insecurities about my own life. Life.

[Jenny Urch]

All right, tell us about your deep, dark fear about getting arrested. It's not about getting arrested, but it's about what?

[Sean]

I, I, I am very claustrophobic, and I have, I, I, I, you know, I grew up in, in a, in an interesting household and set of circumstances and, and I had a lot of anger issues, and I got in a lot of fights. And there's been times as an adult where I'm like, like fighting off some feelings of, like, I think I want to fight that person right now. And the first thing that I think of is I'm not worried about the fight. I'm worried about getting arrested and potentially get put in handcuffs because I'm too claustrophobic for that. So the, the, the thought of handcuffs Makes me very scared.

[Jenny Urch]

My husband is, too. We were at a theme park and he was on a roller coaster, and the. The bar came down. It was, like, over. He talked about it a lot. It was like the bar comes down over his lap. And then when the roller coaster was done, the bar wouldn't lift.

[Sean]

It was like, I've had that happen.

[Jenny Urch]

He's like, oh, no, this isn't going to work for me. They're like, you know, they can't get it. They have it to bring in a mechanic. He's like, I'm going to lose it.

[Sean]

I have had that exact thing happen. No kidding.

[Jenny Urch]

Totally stuck. Sean, what an inspiring book. It's really cool that you wrote it. I think people are going to find a lot of hope in it. It's called kiss the fire 7 Ways to get back up. When you want to give up. We always end our show with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood? That was outside.

[Sean]

There was outside. So, you know, we talked about my stepdad, and, you know, he.

[Jenny Urch]

He.

[Sean]

He. I feel like he did his best. He didn't have a dad, and so. But the one thing he did, even though the car rides home might have been tough, is. Is he took me to baseball as a little kid. And I. I remember so many nights out on a baseball diamond, hitting balls, pitching for hours, taking infield, and. And I just. I love being outside on a baseball diamond. And I just feel like I have a hundred memories of doing that when I was a kid, and I love it.

[Jenny Urch]

Sean, what an honor. Thank you so much for being here.

[Sean]

I told my wife what I told my wife that I was going to meet you today and be on your show. And she was like, I watch her. I. I actually saw. She. She actually told me. She goes. She was on a. She was on a thing. And she sat next to Levi, and I saw her talk to Levi.

[Jenny Urch]

Isn't that cool? What a small world. And like, literally that we just met on a random adventure. Well, huge congrats. Honored to meet you.

[Sean]

Thank you so much. Great to meet you. And Doug Limu.

[Jenny Urch]

And I always tell you to customize.

[Sean]

Your car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Music Mutual. But now we want you to feel it. Cue the emu music. Limu.

[Jenny Urch]

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[Sean]

We say that may have been too much feeling. Only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty Savings. Very underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company affiliates.

[Jenny Urch]

Excludes Massachusetts.