← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 619: Ungoverned by Four Walls, | Jess Warner and Adele Hopper, TimberNook Australia
01:00:59
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- [00:02]
A
This episode is brought to you by Netflix from the creator of Homeland. Claire Danes and Matthew Rhys star in the new Netflix series the Beast in Me as ruthless rivals whose shared darkness will set them on a collision course with fatal consequences. The Beast in Me is a riveting psychological cat and mouse story about guilt, justice, and doubt. You will not want to miss this. The Beast in Me is now playing only on Netflix. Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Merritt and the founder of 1000 Hours Outside, and if you've been here for a while, you know that I am a massive fan of Angela Hanscom and her book Balanced in Barefoot and the Timber Nook programs that are global around the world, but also we need more of them. And so here and there, we're talking to different providers that are doing timbernook programming, both in schools and in their communities. And today I have two lovely women from Australia who have a Timber Nook program there. Adele Hopper and Jess Warner. Welcome to the both of you.
- [00:59]
B
Thank you.
- [01:00]
C
Thank you so much for having us.
- [01:02]
B
We're very excited to be here.
- [01:04]
C
We're thrilled to be here. I think just even to strengthen that message that is already so deeply ingrained within the 1,000 hours community, which is one, you know, time in nature and then two, time for kids to actually dive into play. So thank you for sharing this conversation.
- [01:22]
A
Extended time, it's so needed for our kids for their optimal development, but also for their vibrancy and their love of life. And I always say there should be a Timber Nook at least in every county, every city. I don't know how things are spread out in Australia, but, you know, in these, every area and there, there just are not, in my opinion, there's not enough of them. And, and I know it's growing. There's 25, I think, percent more Timbernook locations just since last year. These are great opportunities for. For you to impact your own children as well as your community. So I would love if you give me back stories how you got interested in this field of work. So, Adele, do you want to kick us off?
- [02:01]
C
Sure. So I actually was, I think, pregnant with my third baby. So I'm a mom of three, first and foremost, and one on the way.
- [02:13]
B
Three and a half. Three and a half.
- [02:14]
C
So very exciting. My background, I'm a pediatric occupational therapist. So at the time, I was working very much in an acute sort of hospital setting, so mixed caseload, inpatients, outpatients. And yeah, it was. It was a lot. It was a lot being a Mum juggling that sort of work shift, but also, yeah, finding time to, to be with my children and to invest, you know, all the, the values and beliefs that I had around being outdoors, having presence. So I was working part time and in the midst. I was sort of doing some outdoor nature play, play groups in my backyard and we had a little co op and you know, it was, it was a beautiful time. I just have really fond memories of that. And then Jess actually reached out and mentioned that she had, you know, some thoughts and ideas. So we were friends before we sort of became business wifey. Business wifey. And she just said, you know, you keep coming up in, in my meditation and have you, have you heard of Angela Hanscom? Have you, have you heard of Timbernook? And I was like, no. And she's like, oh, it would just be amazing if you would just look into it. So I did, I went down, you know, I went down through the, I.
- [03:42]
B
Guess the Timbernook rabbit hole.
- [03:44]
C
Rabbit hole. And I sort of never looked back. It was groundbreaking stuff like the thought of having community come together and opportunities for children to access. It sounds so silly when, you know, it's something so simple. But for children to have that opportunity where, you know, space is actually held for them to have that sense of freedom, you know, it's something that we had as children and yeah, so I guess that's how we sort of started. Jess was already in the journey, so I'll let her talk in a second about, you know, where she, she got started. But. And then Covid sort of hit, so things sort of took a bit of a drastic turn from my perspective and I'm going to be a bit vulnerable. So I was pregnant and I didn't want to have the COVID vaccination. So from that I was actually terminated from my employment and it just sort of opened up the door, the window, I guess, for diving into a new opportunity and it just felt so, I guess such a wholehearted yes from my perspective because, you know, I could be with my kids. It was an opportunity where I could take my kids to work with me. They were able to benefit from all of that that we know of. That this, you know, just echoing what we already know within this audience. That, that, yeah, that time and space for play and for opportunities to connect with not only themselves but also other children and with nature. Yeah, it was just a no brainer, I guess. So, yeah, that's sort of where we, where we started had just put the.
- [05:25]
A
Bug in your ear before COVID Yes.
- [05:28]
C
So we Were sort of slightly on the.
- [05:31]
B
It was 20, mid-2020.
- [05:34]
C
Okay.
- [05:35]
B
Yeah.
- [05:35]
A
Okay. And so. Oh, here opens up this upper. Other opportunity for you and what an inspiring, hope filled story. Right. That you might feel that you're in a really rough spot, about to lose your job, something that's really terrible and then something else opens up. So that's remarkable actually, Jess, that you are already laying the foundation for that. How did you find out about Timbernook and start to get involved?
- [05:59]
B
Yeah, well, it was sort of. It was. I guess we can look at Covid as something that was really hard for a lot of people, but it also brought a lot of blessings for a lot of people. And it was the thing that sort of made me again look for other options. I'm an early childhood educator by trade and I had been working in the industry for quite some time. And then I started having my own children and realized that it really wasn't an industry that I wanted to be part of now that I was a mother. So I had left and I was actually working in the wellness space and quite proactive about being healthy and using nature as a way to. To support our health. And then I was also, at the time, as I was a mom with two young kids, at that time I was running intergenerational playgroups at the local aged care facility near my house. And I was really enjoying doing that. I had a great passion for connecting both ends of the spectrum of ages. I really found that that was really something lovely that I could do for my kids, for the elderly, for the community as a whole. And then, yes, Covid come along in 2020. And I was of a similar belief to Adele that I didn't want to be forced to put something into my body that I didn't want to. So I was then not allowed to enter the aged care facility either. And it was. I completely understand why they had that policy and everything like that, but it was that that sort of made me think, I don't want to be governed by four walls with my work. I really don't want to have to be able to say you can't enter a building because of X, Y and Z. And I was just so happened to be talking to a very good friend of mine who I. Who was also a colleague of mine in the wellness space. And she's quite good friends with the person who brought Timbernook to Australia. Her name's Tash. And she said, oh, my friend runs this thing. Maybe you could do an outdoor play group. And you know that the oldies could walk down with their. With their chairs and you could just do it outside. And she's like, yeah, it's this Timbernook thing up here in Newcastle. You should look at it. And so I did. And then I was like, wow, wow. Why haven't I thought of this? Like, why? Wow. And then. Yeah, so I sat on it for a few weeks, just mulling through the information of timbernock back in 2020. There wasn't a lot on socials around that time either. So just really referring to the website, reading Angela's book front to back a few times and then, yeah, as I said, as Del said, she was running her playgroups and I was watching her do that and I knew that this wasn't a journey that I wanted to do by myself. So I was ever so grateful when she came on board and said that. Yes. And so I've started to get the ball rolling and now, nearly four years later, going into our fifth year, where we're rolling on. So it's good.
- [09:06]
C
So definitely with our kids in mind.
- [09:09]
B
Yeah.
- [09:09]
C
You'll sort of start from the service.
- [09:12]
B
We just said, you know what if no one else comes, at least we've got this space for our five kids. So this comes, love, have a ball and it'll be fine.
- [09:21]
A
But people do come. They do come and they're so grateful. So there's one in Michigan where we live in Jackson and this woman named Cassie Butters runs it. And so I got to go visit, I got to go be there during the opening week and do some of the different activities. And she just has had wild success. What's interesting about the story between the two of you, though, is that. And we actually haven't talked about this on the show at all in terms of Timber Nook is you could do it with your friend. How often in life do you get to work with your friend? Hardly ever. But if you want to start your own thing and just bring your own children together to kick it off, and then there's already some kids there and then you're going to open and up to the community. If you want to have a work wifey and you want it to be your friend, you've got the capacity and the ability to do that. So that's super inspiring. Adele, can you talk about the difference between being in the clinical setting and then being outdoors with children in a group setting?
- [10:15]
B
Absolutely.
- [10:16]
C
So that was a huge eye opener for me. Like, I think I didn't really understand the benefits so much until, like, I was in the Thick of it. So, you know, from myself, even if I was already coming to work and it was a bit of a, you know, maybe a bit of a hectic start, a bit of a chaotic start in the morning, by the end of the day, my own regulation, like, it was just, yeah, so much better. So much better. So being outside of those four walls, being immersed in nature, I don't think I had anticipated how beneficial it would be for myself. My level of sort of internal calm, my. My level of being able to care for children and to be able to co regulate because I was at a much better sort of state of mind myself. Yeah, that's probably the hugest thing that I can, I can think of in terms of the clinic space, but also similarly to similar to perhaps what Angela has mentioned on previous podcasts, I sort of had this, you know, whole epiphany where I was like, okay, well, you know, I was working inside indoors. Why am I hanging this swing up inside? Why am I setting up this sensory bin inside when I can easily access all of this outside within nature? And it was just like, what, you know, why this huge question of like, why, why was I ever doing that? So, yeah, I just see from a perspective of myself there was a huge shift, but also the, for children and for clients and, and the, you know, the little humans that are coming through, they thrive in nature. Like there is no question about it. I mean, we live in such a culture here in Australia and we'll probably trickle on to talk about this a little bit further on in the conversation, but we are so driven by outcomes, by structure within our community anyway in Australia. And there's a really desperate need for us to shift this, I guess, perception and expectation around children needing to have structure and to achieve. And this focus on sort of, yeah, outcomes, outcomes, outcomes and being experts in every single field. You know, there's a real need to rebalance and rebuild nervous system resilience. So from an OT perspective and within my private practice, I would say that 9 out of 10 referrals are for emotional regulation. Even like as a parent, if I scroll through social media, it takes me, what, a minute to see that every second post is associated with emotional regulation. It's almost like a wellness buzzword.
- [13:05]
B
Yeah.
- [13:06]
C
At the moment. And again, just echoing what this community already believes in, it really needs to be a lot simpler than that. And I guess rather than having all of these things out there to fix that, we just need to take it back to basics and just get kids outside. From a Timbernook perspective, I guess just not being outside but also looking at the play aspect of that and the true definition of play.
- [13:34]
A
Yeah, Jess, could you address the play? Because one of the things, and it goes in line with what Adele was saying and here in the United States it's very similar. Outcome based childhood resume building. Childhood often starting, you know, not long after they're born with which preschool are we going to get them into? And you know, there are parents that are planning these kids lives out from start to finish and it's like, well, what if they don't want that, you know, or what if they don't make it on that, you know, high level soccer team that you're hoping they're going to make it? You know, they're only two. You don't really know what's going happen. But we have this world that is, is very prescriptive for children. It's adult directed in school, it's adult directed out of school through both extracurriculars and homework. It is really directed on screens as well because there's a lot of push toward what do we watch next, what's coming up next neck Netflix is going to feed you the next thing. YouTube is going to go right on to the next video. So in so many ways kids are being pushed by outside forces, whether that's adults and it may be outside forces that have their best interest in mind or it may be ones that are trying to make money off of them. But either way there, there is so much coming at our kids and so often we extend that to play because that's what everyone is doing. So we're going to organize the play, we're going to make the scavenger hunt, we're going to have them do this or that thing. Can you talk about the difference with Timber Nook? That this is very child led, child directed and why that matters?
- [15:02]
C
Yeah.
- [15:03]
B
So I think one of the big things that we found with this sort of area, Ginny, is that we've actually had to do a lot of parent education in this space because often when we have inquiry about our programs, it's sort of like how does the day run? And what do they do? What are they learning? What are you teaching them? You know, and it's very, and, and it's. I guess it's just.
- [15:28]
A
I love that. I love it because I was just telling someone I watched there's a video on the Timbernook website. It's about seven minutes and I hadn't watched it before, even though I've talked to Angela a bunch of times, But I hadn't watched the video, and I loved the video. I mean, it's just like kids. They're on a tire swing, and near the end of it, there's this spot where they have a piece of a slide. So a slide that you would think would go on a playground, but it's on the ground. You know, oftentimes people just throw out these old play structures. So it's. To me, it seemed like it was garbage. You know, there's like this yellow plastic slide, but they. The kids had put it on some sort of decline just outdoors. It wasn't attached to anything. It's just going down the grass. And they had this big bucket, and inside the bucket there was water and a pumpkin. And they just dumped it. They just dumped it down the slide. And so when parents are like, what are you doing? You're like, we're doing that. You know, you can't even really describe it.
- [16:24]
B
Yeah, but do you know what? That's the thing, right? So as a parent who isn't sort of maybe educated in how play is feeding learning, you know, they're just thinking, you're just putting water on a slide. But they're not thinking about, that's science. They're looking at the way the water's flowing, all of this thing, trial, trial and error, all of these different things. So we've really found that we've had to sort of educate parents to say that. We have a short welcome circle at the beginning of our sessions where we come together, we greet each other, we say hello, we'll often read a story or sing a song around a sort of topic, a theme that we may be interested in. And then once we go down into the space, there are lots of loose parts, lots of different things. There are invitations to play. There is no expectation, There is no product that we're trying to get through. It is all process. And we have been able to show on so many occasions, just through standing right back and observing and getting little snippets of videos and things to say to parents. You know, look what they've done today. Look at the learning here. You know, when you're. When you're standing back and you're watching them, you know, these children come together in small groups to organize themselves, to communicate with each other, to problem solve, to have conflict resolution, to build these incredible things that not even we could foresee they were going to do. And, you know, they're so proud of it. They're so proud of the work. And when you show them you know, these little videos, at the end of the day, they're like, oh, wow. And especially to our homeschooling families that are trying to sort of tick some boxes for their next assessment with their, their thing, you know, I'm like, well, you know, today they've done English, science, maths, geography, all of these things. And they're like, oh, okay. So really, I think the difference with Timbernook is for us that once the children are in the space, they rule the roost in a safe way. A lot of people think, oh, don't just run, run them up around the bush and you can't, you know. No, we have boundaries, we have safety guidelines for them and they're very, very good at knowing their limits, to be honest, that, like, we've never had any problem in sort of losing children out in the bush or anything like that because they tend to just be able to go, okay, this is the safe area. This is what we're doing. And they want to stay with their friends. They want to do the things that the other children are doing. And so really it's quite easy for us to be able to stand right back and remove ourselves from the play as much as we can because that's, we've found that that's really where the real learning is, when we can get out of the way. So that is a little bit different to some of the other programs that are available in our areas. As, as much as they are nature based, maybe some of them just have. They're more sort of activity led maybe by an adult or something like that. Whereas we just try to get out of the way as much as we can.
- [19:37]
A
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- [23:02]
C
So very much looking at, I guess, Anita Bundy's work and the evidence that we know, making sure that kids are actually diving into real play, real play that is intrinsically motivated, the internal control, being able to, I guess, as well, dive into, you know, removing themselves from that sense of reality and tapping into that imagination. Whereas, yeah, a lot of parents sort of find that they have this new sense of appreciation for play.
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B
It's quite interesting, actually, because I have had conversations with parents whose children have been a little bit younger. Maybe they've attended from when they were about three to five, and then they've gone off to school and they. They come back because the. The younger sibling is then attending our programs, and they say they're just doing. They're just thriving at school. And really, it's because they've had that opportunity a lot of the time to develop those executive functions. You know, we give them the freedom to say, oh, your body feels hungry. Okay, go and feed it. You know, oh, you need to be able to keep your belongings together in your bag. Otherwise it's going in lost property. You know, they're able to actually develop those executive functions and all of those.
- [24:15]
C
Other, like, just that tap into that interior, receptive sense. I think, again, that's for, you know, we offer our programs to all abilities. So we've got children who are neurodiverse and just being able to have that opportunity to actually, I guess, manage those things themselves rather than being directed by an adult or be directed by a specific routine. So, you know, kids are playing. We don't interrupt the play. If they're hungry, they need to. They need to listen to their body. They listen to their body. They know they're hungry. Okay, I'm gonna go. You know, what do I need to do? I need to go and find my lunchbox and have something to eat or, you know, I can. Oh, I need to. I register that I need to go to the toilet now. I need to. Need to have a little bit of a pause in what I'm doing, and I go and do that. Rather than having a specific toilet break, Children are really having to Listen to what their body is telling them. And that's when, when they stay, you know, they're the, I guess the guide for their own play, they stop and they.
- [25:16]
B
I think it's funny too that they. Because we remove ourselves as much as we can from the play and we often try and busy ourselves, you know, can you push me on the swing? Oh, I will. I'm just doing this. Can you ask a friend to do it? So a lot of the times, because we've done that in the play, when it gets to packing their bag, when it gets to doing. Having to do things for themselves, they almost. Yeah. You know, whilst they do ask for our help every now and then, when we can say, oh, I will, I'm just busy doing this, it's. They go, oh, well, everyone else has gone up to play Bull rush. If I don't do this myself now, I'm gonna miss out, you know, So I think it's good, you know, it's. It's given them the opportunity and they're not relying on us as much because we're actually not in the play with them.
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C
That much sense of autonomy.
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B
Yes. Yeah, absolutely.
- [26:06]
A
You're tapping into their internal motivation. So they're the guide for their own bodies, they're the guide for their own play, and they build so much self confidence through that. I love when you talk about the product piece because I think that maybe this is the crux of the problem is when we try and turn out a product which is a child that's maybe ready for Ivy League education or something like that. Like that most of them are miserable. And when you take that away, you're not trying to turn out some sort of product. You're just letting them be a kid. They're very vibrant and robust and they love life. And so this is really a key to a good longevity because then they take that vibrancy with them. And so you can see how much it matters both now and in the long run. One of the things. Oh, I want to say this. Okay, So I never actually. We've never talked about this and I've never really even considered it, which is silly because it's obviously obvious. But when you're talking about, you know, adult led, so many things are adult led and adults are leading the play. That the, even the toys that kids use, those are made by adults.
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C
Yes.
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A
I don't know why I've never really thought about that. There's not any toy out there on the market that like a seven year old made. You know, it and so when they make their own, that's, it's another piece to the puzzle of their creativity. And they're like you said, their autonomy and for them to grow in those ways that help them with their self identity and their self worth and all those types of things. Okay, I want to talk about the specific situation I thought was really interesting. And you talk about this as well. I got to go visit this start of a Timber Nook program over in Jackson, Michigan. So you talk about being able to take your kids to work, and this is not taking them to work. I got to go with my dad to work once or twice and it was like I played solitaire on his computer. You know, like, this is different. This is like, take your kid to work and it's going to be a vibrant childhood for them. It's going to be wonderful. They're going to be with all these friends. So you take your kid to work and sometimes the kids are on the outskirts. So when I went to this opening in Jackson and you know, it's been wildly successful, obviously for you, you're heading into your fifth year, it's been wildly successful. There was a little girl the first day, who, and this is hours, you know, it might be three hours, it might be four hours long, who stood off on the side for the whole time. And I'm, I'm totally on board with the philosophy. Like I'm, I'm right there with it. You know, I don't think that we need to coerce children. But even myself, I was like, maybe we should nudge that girl. Maybe we should give her a little nudge. You know, she's kind of cautious, but nobody does that. They, they let her feel it out on her own. And then the very next day, it's only one day later, she was completely enmeshed in all the play with all the other kids. It was actually remarkable to see. So can you talk about this transformation from the cautious, the cautious observation into the child who is joyfully taking risks and joining and socially?
- [29:00]
C
Absolutely. So I'm going to actually use my daughter as a bit of an example.
- [29:06]
B
Both of our eldest daughters are very.
- [29:08]
C
Similar, both of our oldest daughters. I would say that my oldest daughter, she's quite reserved. She's a bit of a worrywart. So she really processes things and she needs time. She does need time and space. Like you can almost see her just contemplating everything in her mind. So she very much has always stayed really close to me. It will take her the whole day almost to warm up and it'll be the last half an hour that she's like, okay, I'm ready, five and a.
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B
Half hours and then it's almost over. Yeah.
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C
But I think it's, it's really important to just really let them lead and just remember and have trust in that whole process because when she gets there in her own time, you can just see how much joy one but also how much she feels safe, how the safety piece, how much she trusts being able to sort of, you know, make that, that choice on her own, to dive into that slavery.
- [30:09]
B
Yeah, yeah. I mean, and not just speaking of our own children, you know, we've observed little ones. So we, across the week we run two drop off programs and we run two playgroups and we have transition programs. So from our playgroups which run from, for two hours, you can then come to a drop off which you can choose either a three, four or a six hour. And so we've had little ones that have started. We have a little one actually she started when she was four months old in our playgroups and she's just turned four and she now comes to our six hour program. But even for her, when she started coming to the drop off program for the first, I would say three or four weeks, she basically just sat next to her bag and just watched. You know, she was just three. She just sat there and observed and watched. And every now and then she'd toddle off and have a little play in the mud kitchen or she'd go on hopper on the swing for a little bit, but she just watched and it was almost like she was going, okay, so that dynamic is that friendship. They, they like to do this at this time. And now she's just like, I think she'll be tipping up later one day when she grows up because yeah, she's, we just gave her that time and space. And every now and then there's an encouragement, would you like to do this? Or you know, but otherwise just very independent. Yeah.
- [31:36]
C
And she's engaged, deeply engaged.
- [31:39]
B
Yeah.
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C
And when we see lots of different scenarios, we've got kids that come through and you can see that they are bored. They, they tell us that they're bored. They hit that rock bottom of boredom. But it is so empowering to also see them shift and come out of that other side once they start to create their own ideas, once they execute those ideas and then they have, you know, that sense of achievement in themselves, that confidence in themselves, what they have, what they have achieved. We've got, we've got children that come along and they're so, I guess, I don't want to say conditioned, but they're so used to structure in other settings that they're in that they will come to us every two seconds with, oh, can I. Can I put it.
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B
We find that in our stem up.
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C
Yeah.
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B
In our school holiday programs. What do we do next?
- [32:26]
C
What can we do?
- [32:27]
B
What do we do next? Whatever you want.
- [32:29]
C
Fine. Can I use this saw? Can I, you know, can I climb that tree? Because, you know, a lot of, you know, childcare centers around us. They actually remove all of the trees. The kids don't have any opportunity to.
- [32:43]
B
Yeah.
- [32:43]
C
To climb trees at all. So, yeah. They're seeking that permission from us. Whether they're actually allowed to engage in certain activities or tasks or to even participate and whether that's, you know, within Australia, we don't have a lot of these. Yes. Environments where children can actually do and be a kid. So it's.
- [33:08]
A
Yeah.
- [33:08]
C
I think why we will always be really keen advocates of Tim and Oak and the philosophy and children actually having that opportunity to play. Because I just think that there's. It's like finding a needle in a haystack, right? Like. Yeah. To find a service or a program where a child can actually just truly play and play, as the research sort of expresses, for at least three hours before they hit that magic of where they're, you know, they're regulating themselves. They're building that confidence. They're actually able to dive into their imagination. I can't really name another. Even a school setting where kids are actually able to do that.
- [33:48]
B
Yeah. Not in Australia, anyway.
- [33:49]
C
It's great to see a group context. Yeah.
- [33:52]
B
A lot of the. A lot of schools in America picking up timbernock, which is really exciting.
- [33:56]
A
Yeah, it is exciting. And I talked to this woman named Kenzie who does it at her school, which is called Laconia Christian Academy. And on some of the days, the kids will be doing timbernook for half the school day. And I think that's wonderful. It's wonderful. Once again, you're focusing on the process. Then you end up having these vibrant, robust kids who are successful anyways. They end up being successful. And this is not diminished from their academics in any way, shape or form. I know they've been doing a lot of research about that. I love the story about the little girl who started coming at four months and now she's four years old. The neighborhood play. This is basically providing historically normal neighborhood play in the woods. And this historically normal neighborhood play that used to happen when kids would spend three hours in the afternoon or four hours on the weekend outside playing with a mixed age group of kids with no adult supervision is now gone. It doesn't really exist hardly at all anymore. And so this is what parents need and it. It just helps to fulfill that need. The neighborhood play can provide a community because you. I mean, I remember I grew up with this kid named pj. You know, I mean, like, I still remember we lived in this neighborhood until I was seven years old. And you run around with the neighborhood kids and you form this really strong sense of community. And so if you have a child that starts at four months and she's still there and she's four years old and she's increased and increased in her time. Can you talk about the aspect of this solid community that's built around these children?
- [35:28]
B
Yeah, do you want me to do that one? Okay, yeah. I feel like we talk about the community for the children, but we have seen the ripple effect of the community for the families, really. So, you know, yes, this mum started bringing along her daughter when she was four months old, but from there she has made this her own community as well, with the other parents, the other families. And we have seen this ripple out. So we've got homeschoolers that come that came to Timbernook because they heard about us. A lot of them either didn't start their children in school during COVID or pulled their children out of school during COVID and then heard that we were opening, so came to us and that was the connection piece for them. They have then gone on to form their own co ops outside of Timbernook. We have families that come to our tiny one sessions, our playgroup sessions, which are two hours long. And a lot of them are only aged between sort of one to three. But they pack up when we pack up and they head out just out the front gate where we've got a more of a nature space. And they all sit there and they all have lunch together and they stay for probably another hour and a half and they all continue playing out there together. So the community is there for the children. It's giving them, especially if they are home. You know, there's so much talk around homeschools, but how do you socialize them? It's like, how do they maintain friendships? How do they. You know, we're giving that opportunity for these same group of children to be together week after week, but we're also giving. Giving the opportunity for these families to come together week after week. And we've We've. It's. It's been really heartwarming for us to see them extend these relationships and friendships beyond Timbernook, because a lot of them have created a lot of magic together for their children in. In the last four years. So I think that community piece is huge because it's. It's what a lot of us are lacking.
- [37:31]
A
Yes.
- [37:32]
B
And it's what a lot of us are looking for as well. You know, we. We especially, I think the. The isolation that Covid brought to people, no one wants to sort of feel that again. That was, you know, it seemed to be such a. Such a. I don't know, just a wild time. Everyone just, you know, just so removed from connection with each other. And even to see children that would come just after Covid coming, and they. They'd flinch when other children would run past because they weren't used to being, you know, around other children. And so for. For those parents to be able to help their children have that experience outdoors with other kids, but also then find community with other families who have been, you know, parenting through having babies for the first time in Covid, like, so. So isolating. So a lot of them have really found that connection with each other, which has just been amazing. Yeah.
- [38:33]
A
That must be so heartwarming for you. It must be so encouraging to see that the program ends and everybody still stays and to see that year over year. Yeah. That these relationships are building. And I think it's rare in a school setting, and I guess it would depend on how large the school is. But it's rare for children to be in a class with their closest friends year over year over year. Often you get placed in another classroom. And so to have that consistency of relationships is so profoundly beautiful. I talked to this man named Michael Gurion, and he's, you know, an expert on children and children families. He talked about how that the ideal is that every child has three families. He said that the ideal is that there's the nuclear family and then there's the extended kind of aunts, uncles, grandparents, cousins type situation. And then, you know, like a little bit of a broader community, maybe that's in your area within your school system or something like that. But it was interesting because most people, you know, they maybe just have the nuclear family. If they don't live near extended family, they don't have support. And so a lot of times you have to make that on your own. And you're like, well, how do I even make that? How do I find families that value the same thing as Me and that have kids that are creative and can play and aren't on screens. And so this is a wonderful way to find it. You're, you're adding really a protective measure around these children because you're adding in a built in family too that, that so many don't have. And so, you know, I think that that's a remarkable thing though. It's a, it's a win, win, win. It's a win for the parent that gets to bring their child to work. It's a win for that child who gets to come to a really cool work that their parent does. And it's a win for these communities who now have a second family. Whether the parents have gotten involved or not. Those kids at least have this buffer of people around them. I mean, I think there should be timber nooks everywhere. This is, you know, one of the key answers to what we're missing because neighborhood play has gone by the wayside. There's a man named Alistair and I guess he didn't coin this, but he does talk about what's called the doorstep mile. And he says the hardest step is the step over the doorstep. The hardest thing is getting something going. And I know it is a bit of work to get one of these going. Cassie that lives near me, I mean they put, they put some time and effort, they of kind, they, they cleared out this woods area that was behind this church and you know it was, it was a heavy lift for a bit but once it's up and going it seems like it would be in some ways fairly self generating. Like it's going, it's going, it's going and, and you're in your routine. Can you talk to the parent who's listening, who's really drawn to this? And at this point they probably heard six of these episodes. So maybe they're like really like I know I'm supposed to do this in my area, my area really needs this. But that doorstep mile is what maybe keeps them from joining in. Can you talk about how you got over that hump?
- [41:20]
B
I think it's really comes down to your own internal sort of compass of how you're wanting to show up for your community, how you're wanting to serve. And I think for Adele and I, the most thing was what do we want to give our kids? Even if no one else comes, what do we want our kids to have? You know, we both grew up with very nature based childhoods and that was a value of ours. That's something that we wanted to provide our Children. And we wanted to find a way that we could do it so that others could benefit from it as well. And I think the reason that we decided to go down the Timber Nook path, obviously when we found it, we were both a bit awestruck by the whole thing and how it was. Could work. But just knowing that there was a blueprint there that Angela was setting up things that would help us navigate the business, we knew that we had the skills to work with the children to, you know, be able to plan the curriculum and provide all of those things. But in terms of the business side of things, you know, we both had quite young children at the time. Adele was pregnant at the time. So even considering the logistics of that, sometimes that's a bit of a thing that people go, oh, I wouldn't even. Yeah, I know I can work with the kids. I know I can create beautiful provocations for play and all of those kind of things, but I don't know how to. What do I do with the policies and this and then that. So the fact that Timbernook provides support with that is also really, really beneficial. There's the ongoing professional development piece as well that we have through them that helps to sort of keep you up to date with different things within the industry, research and all of those kind of things. And then I think just, you know, for a lot of people, like, we sort of had to search for a while for a location, but that can be a little bit of a thing that can hold people back as well. But majority of the time, if you, if you keep looking, something will come. And if you share your vision with people, there's so many people that want to help you as well to, you know, just say, this is what I'm wanting to do. Do you know, anywhere that I could run this? Just talk to people about it? Because, you know, it was only the fact that I had talked to my friend about wanting to keep working with. With children and wanting to be able to provide something for them that she said, hey, have you heard about Timbernook? So really talking to others about it and sharing your vision because. And being open to the vision shifting a bit, you know, I was really talking about how I wanted to keep going with this intergenerational connection of grandparents and grandchildren. And, you know, now I look at our Tiny Ones program in particular, and I would say at least a quarter of the. The children that attend come with their grandparents and they're outside in nature with Nanny and Poppy and Grandma and Pa, and, you know, so it's almost like I've actually achieved that vision that I wanted to achieve. It just looks completely different to how I thought it would first look. So, yeah, I think there's a much.
- [44:41]
C
More like authentic and organic way of looking at it.
- [44:44]
B
Yeah, absolutely. It's beautiful when you, you know, sometimes the, the Nano pop all have their little keep cup with their tea in it and they're just sitting back on the chair watching the, the kids play and it's beautiful, you know, like it's. So, yeah, I think there's, there's lots of things to overcome but there's lots of support to, to do it if you're wanting to get started as well, especially if you're in Australia and that's something that you're, you're really keen on doing. We've got, we've got lots of open space here. There's lots and lots of places that you could run this. And yeah, if you're listening from around Australia, please just shoot us a DM on Instagram or contact us. We're so happy to help get you started in the timber nook space because as you say, they should be everywhere. They really should.
- [45:32]
C
It should be everywhere. And luckily in Australia with, with our climate, with our, you know, weather conditions, we can operate year round. So yeah, yeah, it's pretty.
- [45:42]
B
We operate every day of the year. Yeah, 48, 48 weeks of the year.
- [45:48]
A
So yeah, there's flexibility there, you know, to pick the days if you want it to be every day if you want it to be half a days if you want it to be Tuesdays, if you want to run these summer programs, if you want the grandparents to come. There's so much flexibility. It's so touching. It's so touching to think those grandparents would not be having those sweet, thrilling experiences with their grandchildren had you not started this. But Adele, you were going to say something.
- [46:13]
C
I was just going to say less is more like for any parents listening out there, it doesn't need to be this big, you know, extravaganza or you know, take a lot of, I guess, work to set things up. It is, you know, maybe extending that one hour play date that you've set up for your children and just making it longer, you know, so they can actually dive into that. True play.
- [46:38]
A
Yeah.
- [46:39]
B
So, yeah, I think and for us really, like we've over the time our site has shifted in, in how it looks and things that we've added here and there, but at the end of the day, we could literally just put out a couple of Things and Mother Nature would provide the rest. You know, we're so blessed to have a little creek that runs through the back of our site. So again, we've found a plastic green slide on this side of the road and it goes in the creek and they, they make their own slip and slide. And you know, we've got a few old pots and pans and bits and pieces like that. So it's, it's not a huge investment to set it up really, because a lot of the time you're letting Mother Nature do its thing. Yeah.
- [47:23]
C
And we've definitely had our own journey where we, you know, I think in the beginning we used to just think there was so much, you know, time that we spent making sure that there were lots of loose parts staged and things like that. And we just noticed over time that kids would just bypass that and they would find their own way of using things. So I think, yeah, really just honing in on that piece of kids just leading the play and they will find things that they can use outside in nature. It doesn't need to be so many resources or tools that are pulled in.
- [47:56]
B
Yep.
- [47:58]
A
So for those that are listening, that are interested, they feel the draw, you could at least walk it out, get a conversation with Angela or look at the resources on the website. For those listening that live in Australia, tell people about your location.
- [48:11]
B
Okay. So we're, we're based just between Sydney and Wollongong in a little community called Appen. It's very, very small little community. We ended up working a lot alongside Scouts, which is a organization. I'm not sure. Scouts?
- [48:27]
A
Like Boy Scouts?
- [48:29]
B
Yeah, like Boy Scouts, yeah. So they, we actually approached them. They have. We were. What we wanted with our site was somewhere that did have a building, should we ever need it. You know, should there be any weather event or something that we might need some cover, some. Some structured shelter and some toileting facilities as well. And so we just approached them and we don't actually, apart from their toilets, we don't really use anything in there. We just said, can we just use the land behind your hall? And they kind of looked at us like we were nuts. But over time they got it. So we, we partner with them and we've been able to, yeah. Grow. We sort of started with two days a week. We now operate four days most weeks, sometimes five. We have school, school excursions that come sometimes. We have about. Up to about 120 children across the week. And it's. So it's busy, but again, it's like, you Say the flexibility. If you only want to run two days a week, just two days a week, you don't have to. Or one day a week, whatever it is, because whatever you're offering is of benefit. But yeah, we've found that we've been able to with our community where we are, we, we've been able to sort of really pull in people from all different areas. So that's also something to consider with your location. Is, is, you know, is it, is it convenient for lots of people? We have people coming from all around. Some of them travel up to an hour to come and see us, which is also very humbling as well. We currently have one of our drop off program children that just has moved down to Canberra, which is two and a half hours away and she just still loves it so much that she comes on a fortnightly basis. Yeah. So that's pretty cool as well. But we are, yeah, we're just in New South Wales, just between Sydney and Wollongong.
- [50:28]
C
Yeah, it's a beautiful sight. Like we're surrounded at the time of the year when wattle comes out. We've got, you know, bush tucker that is, you know, sourced around where children can, you know, pull off the wattle leaves and they can then make some bush soap. So there is just so many pieces of where we are located that, yeah, just bring in that, you know, really special touch.
- [50:47]
B
We've had koalas and yeah snakes every now and then.
- [50:52]
C
Monitors that have come through. Yeah, yeah. Children get this exposure to, you know, we've had one little boy who was four at the time as well. And you know, our two rules, be safe, be kind and surely enough. A snake came through and he, you know, he knew exactly what to do. He stopped in his play, came over and told one of the, one of the staff and we were able to manage that. But yeah, just phenomenal that children are being exposed to these inherent risks that are, you know, we have outside in nature but where we're not sort of excluding that or blocking that experience for them to learn about these things from. From an early age.
- [51:38]
B
Yeah.
- [51:38]
C
Which we were all exposed to as children.
- [51:40]
B
Absolutely. Yeah.
- [51:42]
A
The word phenomenal fits so well. It is a phenomenal 120 children. That is a wonderful. What a thing. I'm, I'm so impressed and so inspired and I'm really hoping that more people pick up the torch, you know, and if, if you're feeling that calling that little bit of pull and just do it, at least walk out the beginnings of it and see if you can make it happen where you're at. And like you said, other people may come along the path and say I know of a location or I know or you find your work wifey, ask your friend to do it with you. And it could be just a really, really special part of this parenting years where you're, these parenting years where you're raising your young children and you are building community for yourself as well, this sort of second family. Adele, you still do occupational therapy and so you do a lot of the outdoors. Can you talk about that? And people can find that atmothermother natured.com and I'll put that link in the show notes as well. So people are looking for occupational therapy for their children and they're in this area of Australia. You can help them specifically.
- [52:41]
C
Correct, correct. So I am very much a nature based therapist. We do all of our, our therapy work outdoors in nature. So again, through Timber Nook I was just noticing, you know, children were coming through and there was yeah, so much work that I was seeing unfold just organically naturally with them being within that, that setting. So we've had, we've had a beautiful organization, Down Syndrome Australia who have come out to the site for family nature immersion. And what we've noticed at the end it was the parents who are actually saying, you know, they had such a blast but they weren't sure if it was them who actually needed it more than the children themselves. So that nostalgic piece really came through. And I think families that come through for therapy for their children, they get so much out of it themselves as well. And that flow on effect of the, I guess the ripple effect of, you know, things extending past that one hour therapy session, which we know in that one hour therapy session children are not, not going to, I guess have transformation in that one hour session. It's all of those extra 23 hours of the day where parents are actually, we're empowering parents to facilitate the intervention. So, you know, families are just finding a bit of a, I guess a breath of fresh air. They're so used to, I guess coming to, going to therapy appointments in a traditional clinical setting that's very sterile and they're seeing that their children are just engaging and you know, I don't want to go back to outcomes but they actually achieve outcomes outside in nature funnily enough and they're able to take that a little bit easier within their home, I guess home education programs and facilitate things a lot easier when it's in an outdoor setting. So yeah, see really beautiful Outcomes. We're working with nature. We try and steer away from anything that's sort of synthetic. And we just embrace what mother Nature has to offer. And there's so many hidden benefits from, you know, children who do have some visual impairment. We're outside in natural lighting. We don't have, you know, we're not underneath artificial lights, which is, you know, beautiful for our. For our eye development. So children have that. They're exposed to the dirt, the bacteria in the dirt. And, you know, all of that. That's great for our gut health. Children are able to sort of lead their own play, lead their. Their own sort of, I guess, rhythm of how they want the therapy session to unfold. There isn't this constant barrage, I guess, of really intrusive stimuli. So it helps with attention and focus because children are able to just really, I guess, focus on what. What they're doing at that point in time without having too much overwhelming sensory input. And, you know, I could talk for hours about, you know, tactile input that we. We have exposure to outdoors. So again, it's really natural and organic and, you know, from mud, sand, dirt, water, children are just. Are able to interact with things that are natural. And. Yeah, there's just so many benefits from, I guess, a sensory perspective, from an emotional regulation perspective. Yeah.
- [56:22]
B
You can see how much more in tune they are with their bodies.
- [56:25]
C
Yes, absolutely.
- [56:27]
A
Yeah. And then it extends to the family. What a terrific thing.
- [56:31]
C
It extends to the family.
- [56:33]
A
I want to read. You wrote this, and I thought it was so beautiful. You say it's been a joy to witness children moving from cautious observation. Cautious observation to joyful risk taking. Noticeable improvements in emotional regulation after all the sessions. Sensory regulation benefits from mud, water and uneven terrain. Even just that, the simple aspect that the train is uneven, it carries into everyday environments. Parents are reporting calmer evenings and better sleep on their timbernick days. Children are building complex creative play schemas. I don't know if that's how you say that. Anyway, I hope so. Without adult LED toys, without adult LED direction at all, or these toys that adult makes, that adults make. Natural social dynamics fostering cooperation and conflict. Conflict resolution, which is incredibly important. They only learn that through play opportunities for siblings. I think that this is a world that actually separates siblings quite a bit. You know, you're in the second grade and I don't want to sit with you on the bus. And everyone has their own lives. But this is an opportunity to build stronger sibling relationships if they can come to Timber Nook together. So opportunities for Siblings to bond deeply in nature, and parents feeling empowered to embrace less structured outdoor time and trust in the power of nature and in the power of their children to grow in the ways that they need to grow and to grasp onto the things that they need to grasp onto. What an honor to meet the both of you. What a gift. What you're doing is so incredibly important. Please, if you're listening and you feel like you want to join in, join in. The women that I have talked to, and I've only talked to women, although I know that there are some men, timbernook providers. I've only talked to women, but the. All the women I've talked to have been thrilled with their experience, thrilled it has gone beyond what they could have imagined it would have gone. And I think you, you know, you have to take that step to find out. But it's been really cool to hear about the different programs all around, around the world. We always end our show with the same question. The question is, what's a favorite memory from your childhood? That was outside.
- [58:25]
B
You can go first. Okay. Well, I. I grew up on a farm, Ginny, a quite a large farm. And from a very young age I was able to drive. I learned to drive a car when I was about five. We had quite a long driveway to get up to the school bus. So my mum and dad just thought, you know what, we'll just let her drive. We'll just give her a car. So I had this old beat up car. And so probably by the time I was about 7 and my sister was 5, she could drive as well. And one of my favorite memories is on the weekends we lived quite a way out of our closest town. So going to town was a big, you know, deal for us because we only went every now and then and, and so we made our own town on our farm. And so our wool shed was like our big shopping center. And one of the big trees that we had was maccas and you know, all of these little things that we only got to do every now and then. So we'd, on the weekend we'd drive around. We weren't allowed to go above 60, so we'd drive around on the farm, the car, and we'd freeze around and we'd go to the shops and we'd go to the tree, which was Macca's at the drive through. And you know, we just made our own play, which was basically simulating our world and things that excited us. But it was, yeah, it's pretty cool that my husband still says oh, you've been driving for 40 years and you're only 42. So. Yeah, yeah, that's. That's a really cool memory of mine.
- [59:55]
A
I have never made that. I've never heard of that. That's. I wonder how many parents listen in are like, yeah, we did that too. You or most are like, what?
- [60:05]
B
I think it's probably quite a few. In Australia, it was actually a safety thing really. If you're down the paddock with dad and something happens to dad and you're, you know, 10, 15 K's from home, then you need to be able to get back somewhere where you can get help.
- [60:20]
A
So that's incredible. Such a sense of autonomy, I would imagine.
- [60:25]
B
Absolutely, absolutely.
- [60:27]
C
And for me, probably far less extravagant. I have such fond memories of spending a lot of time with my nan and my great aunt and we would just pack a little swag for the day and we would go on these amazing walks in our local surrounds. Very fortunate to have access to sort of natural streams of water close by to where we were located growing up. And we would just be out catching crayfish and yabbying all day and, you know, just a packed lunch and we would just, you know, spend lots of hours just outside, just with the water and. Yeah. Being together. So one of my favorite memories.
- [61:10]
B
Yeah, wonderful.
- [61:12]
A
Yeah. And now here you are providing all of these community led, community enhancing, I guess I would say community enhancing, hands on real life experiences in. Yeah. Such an enriching life life for these kids and for these families. So thank you for sharing because I know that people will be inspired and I know that it's a reminder to, like, back off a little bit and let the kids lead. And it's a reminder that all these simple things have such incredible benefits both for kids and for their family. So thank you for being here.
- [61:44]
C
Thank you so much. Thank you, Jenny.