← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 634: Our Souls Crave to be Seen | Toni Collier, Don't Try This Alone
00:53:42
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- [00:00]
A
If we knew more about our sleep.
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B
What would we do differently?
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A
Would we go to bed at a consistent time or take steps to reduce interruptions to our sleep? With the all new Sleep Score, Apple Watch measures your bedtime consistency, interruptions and sleep duration. Then every morning it combines these factors into an easy to understand score from 1 to 100. So you'll know how to take the quality of your sleep from good to excellent. Introducing the new Sleep score on Apple Watch, iPhone 11 or later required. Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Yurich. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and I have a new friend who wrote a wonderful book and has an amazing podcast and has another wonderful book and also is an incredible singer, Toni Collier. Welcome.
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B
I could scream, but I'm going to be civilized a little bit and I'm so glad to be here.
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A
Well, huge congrats on your book. It's been out for a month. This is the newest one. It's called Don't Try this Alone. How to build deep community when you want to hide from your pain. And I have not heard of some of these things that you do, which are really, I'm sure they're so needed. You talk about having a confessional community and I was like, I have not heard of that. So can you give us a little bit of a backstory? You know, you've had really hard things in your life and now you've, you know, you've gone to counseling and you've gotten certifications around healing and you do intensives and you do retreats and you're still learning and, and you're doing it in community. That's really the biggest part here. You say don't heal alone. When did you realize that you were going to need other people to help you heal?
- [01:34]
B
Well, let me just start by saying this. I've been divorced twice and for a 34 year old, that's a whole lot of life in a short amount of time. Okay. And for my first divorce, I was in a really abusive situation and me and my daughter needed to get out and get into safety and I didn't have a lot of community and so I made some real sketchy decisions, you know what I'm saying? And then for my second divorce, which was just two years ago, I have, my ex husband at this point confessed to me to so much infidelity throughout our marriage, there's just repeated acts and no repentance and it was just nasty and horrible. But I had community this time. And I mean, divorce Is hard for anyone listening, watching this. You just know it. If you've been through it, you know it. If you know someone that's been through it, you know how difficult it is. It's a severing. To do it alone with no support is crushing, though, to do it with people to hold you up, you experience a level of freedom and healing that is different. And I think that was the moment where I realized, huh, maybe it's not the pain that takes us out. Maybe it's trying to manage it alone that does. And, yeah, here I am to tell the story. You know what I mean?
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A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So a huge part of the book, then, because you have this. Well, talk to me about just the naming of it. Confessional community.
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B
Yeah. So Dr. Kurt Thompson, he's an amazing psychiatrist. I love his work so very much. Follow all of it. He essentially started this concept called a confessional community. And in his mind, he believes what Dan Siegel believes, which is that we're all born into this world looking for someone, looking for us. At first, it's our parents. If we have a good relationship, if there's health in our childhood, at least 50% of the time, we'll have secure attachment, and we can repeat those behaviors when we get older, we can find secure attachment in friendships, in marriage, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Well, when we don't have that, we have to kind of relearn what it looks like to feel seen and soothed and safe and secure. And so Dr. Kurt Thompson started this whole concept of a confessional community. Sometimes it's complete strangers. Sometimes, like, for me, I have a group of seven of us where we kind of sort of knew each other. We kind of sort of do the same things, talking and communicating and writing books and podcasts and such. And so we all got together, all seven of us, and. And made a commitment that we're going to meet in person every single year for a retreat, and then every single month for three hours, we're going to confess. And it may be something that we've done that's a little bit janky, like, oh, maybe yelled at my kids a little bit too loud there. But it also could be, yeah, we had, like, one too many glasses of wine, or here's what I'm grieving. Can you hold it with me? Here's what I'm longing for can you hold it with me? And we've been at it for four years now, and it has changed me from the inside out. And so I would recommend it to anybody wow.
- [04:28]
A
Because you talk about how after the first divorce, you can just feel it in your writing that you were alone. Because then you say you're. Then you go into this next marriage five months later, you know, and you say not much has changed, which makes sense, you know, if you have things that you're struggling with and you get out of that situation. Yeah. And you don't have people to talk it through and, you know, you haven't gone down a path of maybe learning a little bit more. You're like, okay, well, you may end up repeating the patterns. And you talk about how when you are so alone that you're not even really telling your parents, and you're not even really talking to your friends about it. And so what a difference now that you have this community. This is a really big thing in our world, though, Tony. I mean, friendships are so hard. And you. I. So you talk about how to find the friends, what kind of friends you should have.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And you talk about this. This concept of how when you're young. So you say, look, I'm outgoing. I did everything. I was like, cheerleader. I was in school. Out in school, out of school. I'm in drama club. I'm in debate team. I'm in step team. I've got all these friend groups. There's all these people around me. And then you hit adulthood, and there's no more step team, and you're not a cheerleader. It is. It is shocking, actually, I think. And the structures needed to. Like, how do you learn to make friends when you're not just surrounded by people? You don't really learn that skill. So can you. You really talk in this book. It's called don't try this alone, how to find the friends you need. So can you just give someone walking through. And even sometimes people's kids. Listen, Tony. So they might be 14 years old. It's like, well, they need to know what they're supposed to do when they're 19, if they don't go to college, or when they're 22, if they did go to college.
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B
Yeah.
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A
How. How do you find these stabilizing friendships that you really need for the hard, adult things that come up?
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B
Yeah. I mean, it all boils down to being brave. Because at the end of the day, what we're not saying here is it's easy to make friends, especially as an adult. And in my research for the book, I mean, it's just so clear that it's so much easier to make friends as children. Like, number one, we don't have so much baggage in our story, right? Like, we're just bopping around like little Teletubbies on the playground. Like, do you want to be my friend? Right? Like, my daughter goes on a playground. 52 seconds later, she comes up to me. She's like, this is my best friend, Molly. And, like, we're gonna do a playdate. And I gave her your number. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm like, maybe want to start small first before we give the information out, you know? But there's no shame, right? There's not a lot of shame, not a lot of bag. It's not a lot holding her back. And so there is this bravery that kind of comes with childhood, and it's innocent and it's ignorant. And then we get pain in our stories, and then people hurt us, and then we've got betrayal and trust issues and all these different things. Then we start to learn about our personality styles, and we use those as crutches, right? Like, oh, I'm an introvert. There's no way I can have friends. Oh, I have social anxiety. We pathologize our way out of deep connection. The second thing, I just want to, like, affirm. And I'm just affirming it right now so that the next thing that I say, maybe doesn't slap you in the face so hard. But I want to also affirm that our parents were curators of community for us. That wasn't our job as kids. They put us in school. They put us in extracurricular activities. They brought us to the park. The jumpy place. The nasty, infested jumpy place, okay? They created and curated community for us even in college, right? Like, it's like, built in friendships there. So I want to affirm that. And I also want to say this. It's no excuse. It's no excuse for you not to practice bravery, because that's what it's going to take. It's going to take bravery to go up to the woman or the man at Publix or Kroger or Walmart and say, hey, I love your shoes. Hey, do you live around here? We're looking for different families to connect with. Oh, I notice our kids are the same age. Like, are you guys ever doing playdates? Are you a part of a mom's club or a dad's crew? Like, it's just going to take bravery for us to step out and step in to the depths of what it looks like to trust again, to believe again, to open our Hearts up again to be insecure again and be like, can I sit down right there? Remember that in high school? So that's what I think. I think that just, you know, we need. We need bravery, and we need enough reps to make us kind of muster up, I guess, the confidence to continue to ask the question that we asked on the playgrounds. Do you want to be my friend?
- [08:35]
A
Right. And it does take a lot of bravery because sometimes people say no.
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B
Right. And then that gets weird.
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A
Yeah. They say no. And I actually just interviewed this woman, and her daughter wrote a book. So this woman, her name is Heather Thompson Day, and I love her.
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B
Yeah, I love her books.
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A
And, you know, her daughter just wrote this book called Can I Sit Here? It's a kid's book. And she was in early elementary school or, like, middle elementary school, like, third or fourth grade, and she's new at the school, and she takes her lunch tray and sits it down with this group of girls, and they literally did not even say anything to her. And they got up and moved, and.
- [09:11]
B
They got to see shy. Shy.
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A
That's where the baggage come from. The. The baggage starts to come. You know, it start. It can start young, so it's so brave. Maybe you had a story like that, or maybe, you know, your childhood, you had experiences where there were friendship breakups or. It was tricky. But then on top of it, you talk about how you were almost like a chameleon. So you're like, I got friends here. I got friends here. I got friends here. It's a lot of different groups of friends.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So I almost can see how as an adult in this, in a small way, you don't hardly have any time, but you could try and emulate that. Like, you talk about, find classes, join some clubs, find your people. Like, you give some really good examples on.
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B
Yeah.
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A
You know, go to the Jazzercise or whatever. Do something like that. Yeah. There's some really cool ones. There's this, like, fly dance. I've seen some.
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B
Really.
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A
I know.
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B
I see them with, like, the little ropes.
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A
Oh, yeah.
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B
That's going all across the room. I know. I want that.
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A
But, yeah, like, I want to hang from the ceiling.
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B
I do want to hang from the ceiling by my pinky toe.
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A
So find your group. But you have to balance.
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B
Yeah.
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A
As an adult, they feel like you don't really have as enough time to do all of the different things. But you really make a point to emphasize this is not necessarily about having. You have to have a balance there right between your confessional Community group.
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B
Yep.
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A
And the, you know, then having people around you, how do you find that balance?
- [10:32]
B
Yeah. Well, for those of you, you know, listening that maybe have a belief in Jesus or you're like, deep into your Bible, One thing that I want to point out is that even Jesus had circles, right? And so when we look at the Bible for an example, if we want to use that, then we get to this point where we see, like, Jesus's most intimate circle was like, him, and go like, that was like him and his relationship with God, and that was his connection. And then the next layer outside of that, it actually wasn't the 12 disciples everyone kind of. Kind of assumes, like, oh, all 12? No, it was actually three. He brought three close. Peter, James, and John. Which is just an example to us that sometimes when we're going through really hard things, you can't bring everybody in. You gotta find those people that can hold the weightiness of your pain so that it's not weird. Because many of us have had moments where, you know, we're in conversation with someone and we're like, I just went through a really horrible breakup. And they're like, he was ugly anyway. I was like, no, he wasn't. I really liked him. What do you mean? Like, because we. We have friends that try to make us feel better instead of just sitting and practicing with this, just sitting with us in the grief and carrying it and holding it with us and not pushing us to numb. Those are your people. Like the three that come in close, and then you have other friends where you're just like, we're going to the park, we're going to the gym, hanging out, maybe a little small group action. But it's. It's not as deep. It's not as intimate. And then outside of that, like, for me, an extrovert, you probably have, like, multiple layers of friends. So I got like, my gym friends, my church friends, my run club friends, my devotional friend, you know, and that's okay, too. I think what I'm saying in this book, and the point that I'm trying to get across is at some point you have to get off the surface and get into the deep. Who are the people that are in the deep with you? Like, we're not talking about the fun friends. And they may be fun, too, because I got some fun and deep friends, too. But who are the friends that stay there for you, knows how you respond, can hold you accountable, and can steer you in the right direction when stuff starts getting a little weird and ratchet?
- [12:26]
A
You Know, it really does make you think about kids because that situation where it's like, well, you're on the basketball team and you're playing soccer and, you know, you go to youth group and you have this, this, this and this. Yeah, we kind of build it like that.
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B
We.
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A
We build it for surface. And so not only do they not have that when they become an adult, but they maybe also have not gained the skills. There's a woman named Dr. Madeline Levine, and I think she's in her 70s. She's like, been working with kids and families for decades. And she says the most common thing that people say when they come to her office.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Is nobody really knows me. Oh, and you say that in your book. You say, I wasn't being deeply seen by anyone. Instead, I was managing schedules and hangs. Is it something that we should be teaching our kids?
- [13:15]
B
Absolutely. So my daughter. This is so interesting. My daughter has been in counseling for years and years and years. I will not tell all her business, because that is her business and she loves it. Right? Like, she goes and sees her counselor and we've been in a season where, you know, I've been talking about this book and she's like, I want to read your book and all the things. She's like, such a little fan girl. It's the funniest thing ever. She's obsessed and she's like, cheerleader, cheering me on. And she essentially asked me just a couple of weeks ago, like, I want a confessional community. And I'm like, huh? How do I curate that for her? And it's so beautiful because I do think that if you have a faith bend in any way, God makes plans for these things. Right? Like, you're not just out here trying to figure it out yourself. And it's so crazy because their counselor literally sent out an email this week and said, hey, we're starting something new for sixth graders where we're doing a group therapy session during lunches on Tuesdays at 12. And I'm sitting here like, wow, my daughter is going to. Oh, that makes me want to cry. Oh, it's. It's coming. It's coming, baby. We're going deep right now. Let's go. My daughter is going to experience what we all deeply long for in the sixth grade. She's 11 years old and she's going to circle up with other 6th grade girls who are going to say, I battle with that too. I battle with that too. And maybe for the first time, like, she's not going to feel so isolated as she maybe feels like in her one on one counseling, right? Like, I'm the only one with these issues. I'm the only one talking about this stuff. Maybe for the first time, she's going to look across the room and see a girl who's the same age as her, who's battling with the same things as her, and it'll become lighter for her. And I just think with where we are, I think our generation, we have like decided to stop hiding, right? Like, a lot of us have gotten into counseling. We're like, all right, I want to do this. Well, it can't stop with us, right? Like, our healing isn't for us as parents. You know, I think Andy Stanley says this, like the greatest thing that we'll ever do or contribute to the world is maybe not something that we do, but someone we raise. And so what does it look like to take all of these strategies and healing and the things that we're learning as parents and pass that down to our kids? Can you imagine what they would look like, what the world would look like in 10 years with healthy, considerate, compassionate young people that actually feel seen and known? Oh, my goodness. That's a different world. That's a real different world.
- [15:45]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And interesting to think about those surface level friendships and how we can help our kids. Even just to have the conversation like you just brought up, you're like, well, Jesus had these 12 disciples. And I think that you're like, well, I should spread myself thin. I'm supposed to have all these friends and. Yeah, you are. You're supposed to have a community around you. But to have those closer ones, even to just be talking to your kids about that, I think sometimes there's even a push against the best friend. You know, it's like, well, come on, like, don't spend so much time with them. You gotta, you know, And I think there's a balance there. There really is a balance there. And I feel like we're probably more over indexed on being in all the things.
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B
Oh, we want to be in all the things. That's the badge of honor we wore for years. When someone asked us, how are you doing? We say, busy. Like it used to be like, I'm good, I'm good, I'm good now. Busy. I'm doing this, I'm doing that. Got 1700 emails. All my notifications are blowing through the roof, man. You know, we wear it as a badge of honor and we, and, and the truth is like, we are bopping around. We're literally shells of a human so tired and depleted and no one's there to carry it with us. And that's just really sad. And it's unnecessary. Can we be honest? It's literally. You literally do not have to do this life alone. It's unnecessary. You don't have to do that to yourself. Yeah.
- [17:12]
A
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B
Oh, my gosh. I mean, my family just doesn't talk about stuff. It's just something happens and it's just like, Merry Christmas. Just like we were all cursing each other out last night. Wait a minute. You know, like, we just, we didn't talk about things and so you just bop around and I just think our souls crave to be seen. Like the real raw stuff, the. I'm battling with an addiction. I've got these insecurities like that. That stuff is longing for fresh breath, to be on it, for someone to affirm it, hold it, consume it with you. And for us recovering people pleasers. And it's still an issue. Like, I will name it in our conventional community. Hey, I feel like I'm performing right now. I just want to name it in the room because I want you guys to be aware that I feel like I have to perform or there's something I want to tell you guys and I don't want to say it. And I just want to say that out loud because I'm afraid you'll leave the room. I'm afraid that you'll judge me. I'm afraid you won't be my friend anymore. And that fear is keeping us from deep connection, from someone looking back at us and say, and Saying just say it and then we name it and then they just stay. And our nervous systems quite literally start to repair and rewire. It starts to assume that people will be in the room and not leave it. It starts to assume the best in people. It starts to look at things differently. It produces gratitude. I mean, I could nerd out right here. But when you allow people to deeply see your pain and they don't leave the room, long story short, it changes you. It heals you.
- [21:47]
A
I love the prefacing Tony too, where you're like, I'm going to share something and I'm afraid. Yeah, you know, that you're going to judge me or that this is going to be the end of our relationship. Just to be able to say that at the beginning to be reassured that's not going to happen. That we're here in community to walk through things. And those are incredible skills to have for yourself and to be able to pass on. So you have these really good questions. I thought maybe we could give out some examples here. So this is in the book is called don't try this alone, talking about how to find the friends you need, which is a huge topic. People are lonely. It's really hard to find friends. And in fact, there are studies that say it's like the. The parents are the loneliest.
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B
Oh, so I.
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A
Because you're so busy. Yeah.
- [22:27]
B
Oh, yes. Yes.
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A
Yeah. Okay, so create a list of three to five places that you've been before where you think you'll be able to find friends. Give us an example.
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B
Okay. The gym. I'm a gym girly. Pop. It is what it is. The church, the park. Okay. Especially if you're a parent. Like, how many times have we literally gone to the park or the jumpy place and we just sit there and watch our kid lick other people's elbows? How many times? We don't speak. I mean, and there are literally lone other lonely parents meters from you. Okay. Seconds and moments from you literally sitting there also watching their kid lick the velcro from somebody's slide. You know what I'm saying? Like, and. And then we're just on our phones, we are catching up on work, and then we leave the jumpy place, overwhelmed, overstimulated, and still alone. And we had so many opportunities just to go up to another parent and say, which one's your kid? What's her name? Oh, okay, that's cool. And I just, I also think this, and I say this a whole bunch. And I, I don't say it from a Place of condemnation. I say it from a place of authority because I've done it wrong so many times. As a chameleon, as a recovering people pleaser, I thought that my perfection and my success would bring me more friends, and it actually didn't. It brought me more people, people that just knew the outside version of me. When I decided to open up, which is very hard for my personality type because I want to look cute all the time, I want you to think very highly of me. I want to achieve like nobody's business. When I decided to let a few into the depths of my pain, my goodness, I became more secure in who I was. Isn't that weird that I was more insecure with a whole bunch of people around me than a few people that knew all my junk? It's almost like it doesn't even make sense. It's like, wait, so you confessed and then you felt less insecure? Absolutely. Because I realized that my worth wasn't tied up in what I could do, but who I was. And when someone affirms in you, oh, you battled with this addiction. You were ratchet. You did a whole bunch of crazy party girl things. And they say, and you're still worthy. Oh, my gosh, the insecurities. Like, bye, bye, I'll see you later, alligator. Okay? And that's what we need over and over and over again, people to reassure us so that we can walk out into this crazy, dark, very hard world and say, you know what? If I didn't do another thing, I'd still be worthy. I've got people that'll never leave the room, and I am not alone, so I can actually do this life.
- [25:05]
A
I think that's a really good point that you bring up to Tony about ascending. Like, you know, you're like, okay, now, I'm an author. I've got this podcast. You know, I speak at all of these events. You know, I think that it would be common human thought to be like, if I was Taylor Swift, I would have so many friends. Right. I would have so much money. I bet she hardly has any friends. Or. Or maybe.
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B
Correct.
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A
Because.
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B
Correct.
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A
No one relates with her. She's in an unrelatable situation. And you don't know if people are there for the right reasons. Yeah, people know all sorts of things about you that you haven't actually told them.
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B
It's just been in, you know, invasive than it is. Welcomin.
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A
Yeah. Yeah. It's really tricky. So I think these are good things to think about. Like, wherever you're at now, don't try to ascend to something else before you start looking for friends. You might be. It might be trickier. Even you would know, because having a podcast, then you meet people, and they already know all these things.
- [26:00]
B
And I'm like, wow. But that's not being deeply seen. That's not. That's not what it feels like to be seen. Truly seen, truly known. And I just. I don't know. I think we've gotten excited about the masses and we've forgotten how sacred and beautiful it is to just dwell with the one. Yeah. To just be with your people. My goodness.
- [26:24]
A
All right, so Tony is telling you, go to the park. That works for 1,000 hours outside, doesn't it?
- [26:28]
B
Come on, somebody get on the trail.
- [26:31]
A
Yeah, get on the trail. Go to the park. Because then there's a little bit of an expanse of time because your kids are playing. Especially if you're a busy parent, you don't have time for an hour conversation. But if you're at the park and you're already there, you might. So you put your phone away. That's a great place. Okay. You also say, create a list of three to five places you haven't been before. There is a place by us. They. They do this card game called Euchre.
- [26:58]
B
Oh.
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A
Which I think is only in. We're in Michigan. I don't know if people play it in other states, which is weird.
- [27:03]
B
It's it. That did sound very Michigan. And yes, we are here in the South. I would like a test that we are not blamed.
- [27:10]
A
Like, never heard of that. But anyway, they have, like, Yuga nights every Thursday. We've never gone, but me and my husband, we keep being like, we should go. It's just, like, at this whatever club. I think it's like, $6 or something.
- [27:22]
B
I'm like, we should just go.
- [27:24]
A
So I love the thought of, where have you not been? That you might be able to find people.
- [27:29]
B
Yeah. I do a restaurant a month, so I'm a foodie. I love a good meal. Okay. I want every meal to be spectacular. Okay. And one of the things that I've incorporated is, number one, I try a new restaurant every month. And number two, I ask my waiter what their name is and if there's anything I could be praying for. And if I'm honest with y', all again, I'm an extrovert. I talk to hundred, thousands, whatever. But there is something so intimidating about looking a stranger in the eye and saying, hi, what's your name? Like, I'm not pretending that it's not hard. It's still hard for me to ask my waiter or waitress, hi, what's your name? Is there anything I could be praying for? I gotta pray for my food. Anyway. It, like, it's literally right now my pits are sweating. Just right now as we're speaking about it. It's so intimidating. They could say no. What could they think of me? Like all those little 13 year old Tony thoughts still come up. What if they deny me? What if they say no? That's weird. All those come up. But I'm telling you something I have never had, not one singular moment where their shoulders hasn't, haven't dropped because they're like, first of all, I'm here serving hundreds of people a day who don't really care about me and care more about what I can offer them. For you to stop and take a moment to say, well, what's your name? What. What are you? Anita? And how can I come alongside you? Like, I can still, I can see faces and names and pain and stories literally right now because I just decided to be kind to a stranger. And even that, like, even when I say that, there's probably people that are like, oh, I can't do that. And it's like, well, why not? Because isn't that what we want? Wouldn't we just love for someone just to stop when we're having a super bad day and our kids smeared oatmeal and peanut butter all over the car seat on the sides? So nasty. When we want someone just to say, is there anything I could help you with? Is there any way I could pray for you? Is there anything I could hold for you? Like, we want that. How much more does that drive us to give it? You know, it's good.
- [29:31]
A
I, I would imagine then, Tony, it gets you into the practice of doing that in other situations.
- [29:37]
B
Come on. That's it.
- [29:38]
A
So if you can do it with the waiter or the waitress, I have this distinct. And I love the part that you said, I'm praying anyway, I'm gonna be praying for my meal.
- [29:47]
B
Pray over this little truffle cheese melt. Okay? I love truffle. I don't know.
- [29:53]
A
I love that because the waitress, the waiter or the waitress has already been by to get your drink order and to get your order. Like you've already had several contacts with them before your food comes and you're gonna pray. So. Yeah, what a great idea. And then it extends. I have this distinct memory, Tony, of when we've got five kids that are fairly close in age like, they're eight and under, and I. They're not eating under now, but at some point they were eight and under. And this happened, I think, even before I had all of them. Maybe I had three, you know, and they're. All of them were in car seats for a period of time.
- [30:22]
B
Yeah.
- [30:22]
A
And I remember leaving this mom's group. I don't know if this is going to sound jerky or not, but I have ready. I've never talked about it, but I have this distinct remember remembrance of leaving this mom's group. And it was at a church, and it's like a big parking lot, and I'm juggling these three little kids, and I'm just, like, overwhelmed. I'm exhausted. And there was another mom leaving the mom's group who had older kids. Maybe they're like eight and up. You know, they're all like. I'm like. I watched them. They're walking. I watched them all open their own door. I watched them get into the car. I watched them buckle their own seatbelts. Yeah. And I thought. And we were close by to each other, and I thought it would really have made a difference for me if that mom, who I didn't know, would have been like, hey, can I help you? You know, and it probably would have taken just like three or four. And I'm not like. I'm like. I feel like it's like I'm being judgmental.
- [31:10]
B
I was like, no, no.
- [31:11]
A
And I'm sure I've done.
- [31:13]
B
Makes me know what that is.
- [31:14]
A
I need to be looking for it.
- [31:16]
B
Come on. And the truth is, what you're naming, I don't think is judgmental. I think it's a longing. You're literally naming the thing that you would have wanted and maybe even needed in the moment. And it is because we were designed to be connected. We were designed to be helped. We were designed to be with. We were not designed to be alone in any capacity. And. And we long for it. We really, really do. We long for it as singles. When we're looking. When we're at Disney and we're kind of having fun, but then we look over at that family and we're like, dang it, I want that. We long for it. When we're at church and we see a group of girls this worship, we're like, oh, worship with my friends. Do we long for it? When we see a whole run club run past us? Like, oh, man, maybe I should speed up and just run with them. We long for it. And I just think Like, a whole bunch of us long for it, and we're not doing it for others. And that is a problem. Be the first to go. Be the most brave one in the room. Curate the community, you know?
- [32:20]
A
Yeah. And I think I haven't thought about that story in such a long time. I can picture the parking lot. I can picture the family walking and just being like, gosh, I really need. I need help. I need, like, four minutes of help. Do they see me? And when you brought up the waiter waitress situation, that puts you in the framework of looking for it. And that convicts me and challenges me. Like, I need to. Because now my kids are older, I should be the one looking out. Like, are there other moms that could use a hand? Or, you know, I can. Can I hold your baby? I can help you for it. And it's weird, but, you know, I could help. And even I know.
- [32:54]
B
Yeah.
- [32:55]
A
I'm interviewing this guy later today, and he has a book about fatherhood. And he was like, how often do the dads do that? Like, he's like, dad's never like, carol, hold your baby. You're like, yeah, it's so true. Like, the moms will do it all with your baby.
- [33:08]
B
Oh, yeah. I'm on the airplane. I'm in, like, the little breezeway thingy, and I see a mom that's like, baby in one arm. The stroller, she's trying to break it down. And I always go for the object over the baby because I'm like, I get it. Okay? Germs. And I'm just asked, do you. Like, do you mind if I help you? Is it okay if I grab that stroller for you? Because I remember the moments when I had my baby, when I released my last book and I was on the road for six months with a travel nanny and a newborn. Like, when someone said, hey, do you mind if I help you? Do you mind? Now, when they said, do you mind if I hold your baby? I was like, go ahead and back up. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's weird. Well, I'm a germaphobe. It's fine. But.
- [33:45]
A
And it is weird. I agree with you. I mean, if you. There's no relief.
- [33:48]
B
Just grab my baby.
- [33:49]
A
No, but I. I, like, look, can I help open the door for you? Or can I. Yeah, I can fold this stroller. I can push that.
- [33:55]
B
What seat are you in? Can I put your bag up there?
- [33:58]
A
Yeah, yeah. And you're in the habit of it. You're in the habit of looking out because you have these built in.
- [34:05]
B
Yeah.
- [34:06]
A
Structures in place in your life that. That remind you to be that kind of person. I think that that's great. I love the question. Go ahead. You were gonna say something.
- [34:12]
B
Okay. Can I just say this, too? I. I want everyone listening and watching to know where that comes from. The longing to give that to other people is because I've experienced it myself. I have. Over these past two years, my kids and I have truly just been through the most treacherous public divorce. So embarrassing. So much betrayal, all the things. And. And I just. I've. I've experienced a level of community and of help and of tender care and withness so vast that literally, it's, like, oozing out of me the gratitude. And I long to give it to other people. I want people to experience thoughtfulness. I want people to experience maybe posting about something hard, and I send them a little coffee mug or a surprise gift, like, because my people did that for me. And I know how good it feels for someone just to be thinking of you. Like, I cry about it. Like, I have so many moments, like, seared into my little brain where my friends sent me my mattress. My daughter's bedroom was furnished by Jackie Hill Perry. My. The mirror that I look at myself in is given to me by Lisa Whittle. Like, I just go on and on and on about all the things that my friends have done for me, and I deeply want people to experience that. I don't want to keep that to myself. I want to be that for other people. And I think that's the. The beauty. And if you can open yourself up and be vulnerable and let people help you and stop trying to play the strong friend all the time, you can experience the goodness of community and get so full that it oozes out of you for other people.
- [35:47]
A
Oh, I love that. What a thing to give someone a mirror. And then, you know, they. They think about you all often, all the time. You know, when they're looking into that.
- [35:56]
B
It's a.
- [35:57]
A
It's a daily thing for people who are fans of Lisa Hill, or, I'm sorry, Lisa Widdle and then Jackie Hill Perry. She wrote the forward to this book.
- [36:05]
B
She wrote the forward. She wrote the forward. And that. And the truth is, like, that's amazing. And you know what? I appreciate Jackie even more for that. Every single night, when my daughter walks into her room, she has a bed to lay on because Jackie knew I needed it. Like, what? Like, that's. That's gonna. That's gonna stick to my heart. My daughter's heart for years to come. That's, I think, the power of deep community. Jackie could have written some words and kept it moving and not really deeply cared for my family, but she did care for my family enough to give us to meet a tangible need. And it only works because I was humble enough to ask for the help, brave enough to be like, I can't afford furniture for my new house. I've lost everything. Gosh.
- [36:54]
A
Yeah. Who wants to say that?
- [36:55]
B
Nobody. We want to wear the cape. We want to be known for getting it done. We want our kids to get all A's and B's and such. Maybe even possibly C's if we're on our last limb, you know, like, we want to be known for really great things. I think that the greatest thing we could be known for is being able to say, I've got people that know the depths of me, the core of my very being. Everything I've been through and everything I'm holding. And they are one heck of a lineup. They'll catch me when I fall. They'll hold my arms up if I need it. They'll care for my kids when I don't have the strength. That. That's the prize to me. That's the prize to me.
- [37:33]
A
What a thing you found, especially with this childhood, of having friends, friends, friends. Here, here, here. And then for people to actually know what you need. I've got a good friend in her refrigerant. This is years ago. Her refrigerator broke. And it was like, with. And same thing. It was like she was just, like, living out of, like, coolers. She like. Like, I can't get a new fridge. And how often does it happen in life where, like, something random happens? In your case, you know, it's like, really big. You're talking about this divorce, and you're like, it wasn't my fault. You know, you say you didn't do anything wrong and that. And yet you lose so much. So you've got things that are at the hand of someone else. You've got things that happen that are just random. Her fridge broke. And then she said a couple days later, like this. This company shows up at the door. They knock on the door. They're like, we're here to deliver your fridge. She was like, I didn't order a fridge. They're like, well, we have a fridge with your name on it in our truck. Like, we're here and we're here. We're going to install it. And to this day, Tony, she has no idea. No is no Idea who gets the fridge.
- [38:31]
B
Those are the ones that make me cry.
- [38:32]
A
I wish it was me.
- [38:34]
B
I want to end this story by saying, and you know who did it? Your girl?
- [38:39]
A
Nobody knows. And what was so wild about it to me, Tony, is that actually I would not be good at that because I am not good at interior design. So I would have no idea. Like, someone knew what fridge, what dimensions? No, how a kitchen is.
- [38:56]
B
It just slid right in the little pocket.
- [38:58]
A
Yes. It was like the right fridge. Someone knew her well enough to just into this day. It's been years. Nobody knows who, where the fridge came from.
- [39:05]
B
They won't say. And I know they're just taking it to the grave, too. That's so exciting.
- [39:09]
A
It is.
- [39:09]
B
It is.
- [39:10]
A
Like the anonymous giving is exciting, too. I think they're all exciting because also, it's really nice to be like, you look in the mirror or you see your kids and you can.
- [39:18]
B
I can name who gave that. Right.
- [39:20]
A
So I think they're all good. But the point is someone knew her well enough to know her fridge dimensions.
- [39:25]
B
Come on.
- [39:27]
A
I was like, oh, do. Do we know each other that well? And so these are. I mean, you talk about in this, about how you say, I know it feels unfair that the strength you need to keep going was taken from you, and now your grief is so heavy you can't even get out of bed. Small things that you once did without a thought, like answering emails, sweeping Cheerios off the floor, writing a short paper and feeding and bathing yourself, now feel like running a marathon. And so if you've got a friend that is in that. That situation in life, which I think people are in that situation in life a lot more than we realize. I know their fridge dimensions. Know, you know, and. And be the person that shares your needs. It's. It's a big, you know, I. I love this about how to find the friends you need. So the creativity of thinking of places you could go. Where could I go? Where could I find these people? And then the third. This third question in this section, and we've literally only talked about one section.
- [40:19]
B
Of this section, y'.
- [40:20]
A
All, Come on, don't try this alone. It's been out for about a month. How to build deep community when you want to hide from your pain. I've got, you know, six or seven pages of notes here, only in one. So there's a lot. You're going to get so much out of this book. Create a list of three conversation starters that will hopefully lead to a new connection with a new friend. What's a good conversation starter.
- [40:38]
B
Okay, I actually. I want to tell y' all who I stole this from. Jenny Allen has an incredible daughter, Kate Allen. And I watched them do a panel at a teen conference I think we were at, And Kate has a little note in her iPhone that quite literally has all these random questions for when she just stumbles upon people. And I was like, what a cool idea wins. And it's like. And she's got it segmented in, like, layers. So, like, you know, we can ask them, like, pretty surplus level questions, like, how old are your kids and where do they go to school? Like, what's something that you guys do for fun as a family around here? Like, super surface level. And it can also get a little bit more personal. Like, what's your name? Where are you from? Tell me about your culture, right? Like, what's very. What's something that's unique about your culture and where your family's from and your heritage? How many siblings do you have? What was your childhood like growing up? Oh, and now we just probably went a little bit deep because we uncovered a little pain. You know what I'm saying? Like, little things like that, I think can help us to get started. And we don't have to go deep super fast. Like, I'm gonna go deep super fast. Go deep or go home type of girl. You know what I'm saying? I'm like, what trauma are you holding today? You know what I'm saying? What are you grieving? What are you longing for? Like, that's where I'm going to go. But read the room. Use your discernment. What's appropriate for that? And this is something I'm teaching my daughter right now. Read the room, baby girl. Okay, let's look at facial expressions. Let's look at what's going on. Let's look at the volume of the space, right? Like, we can practice those things as well. And read the room and maybe start with surface level. Or if you're like, now we've had a couple of conversations. I'm going deep today. Do that too, you know?
- [42:10]
A
So good. So good. I met a guy one time at a college. We would. Did a college tour, and he had that. He had, like, 130 questions. I think he gotten it from somebody else. Like, it was like, their set of questions and just had it at the ready. Because the other thing that you talk about, and we got to move off of this because there's so much more to talk about, but you talk about how the childhood friendships matter quite A bit. This is actually a big theme in the book. So if you are a parent listening in, don't try this alone. You want to read it because you talk so much about how childhood friendships are really important for self esteem and building social skills and emotional development. So when you tell your daughter and teach her to read the room, this is going to help her for the rest of her life. You say the quality of our childhood friendships can significantly influence our self esteem and self concept. These friendships provide a crucial context for developing coping mechanisms, emotional regulation. When we interact with our friends, we learn how to manage our emotions, ask for support, and cope with stress. So this is a really big deal. These early friendships create expectations and patterns that we carry into adulthood. So friendship is a big theme of this book. Obviously, it's don't try this alone. It's learning to heal in community. And this matters for us, but it also matters for our kids. But you talked about. I just want to make sure we get there because I thought this was such an interesting concept. So we talked at the beginning. You know, you're heading for your second divorce, your first divorce, you're really fragile. And then you get into this next relationship, and you said this. I think sometimes we want redemption so bad, we'll try to create it for ourselves, as if that's not God's job.
- [43:40]
B
Oh, surprise, y'.
- [43:43]
A
All.
- [43:43]
B
Okay, I did this. Okay, so let me just say that. So again, not a place of condemnation. This is us learning, growing, trying to bring wisdom so that you don't make the same mistakes. After my first divorce, I was so fragile. I was living with another single mom. It was me and my daughter. She was just one. My parents were helping out a little bit. Like, it just was a bad time. I was figuring out job, ministry, everything. And in comes my second husband. And he just was ready. Like, what's your name? What do you do? All the things I'm looking for, a wife, et cetera, et cetera. I just gotten divorced fresh off of the courtroom, and I wasn't strong enough to not fall for, oh, my gosh, we should go on a date. I wasn't strong enough to say, hey, you know, I think I probably need, like a solid year to be single. I was looking for a savior, and I looked for a savior in my second husband. And that was the tension. And there was no one, no friends that could say, hey, you need to go to counseling first before you enter another relationship. I think maybe you need to take it slow this time because you did rush it that last Time you see how it ended, right? And I didn't have that. Well, I got married again five months later. Okay. And it was a really hard marriage. I mean, our first year was good because the first year always do be a little good, you know, because honeymoon phase. But I found out about infidelity in my marriage the second year, like, truly, truly terrible. And for years and years and years, I didn't tell anyone. Well, then I decided to start healing while I was married again and putting friends in my life and accountability in my life. And there were so many, many things that were in my marriage that I did not even realize were toxic, unhealthy, codependency. I mean, just so many things. When I started to express and tell my friends about all the infidelity, they were like, okay, you. Maybe y' all need to address that very, very soon. Okay. You know, all these different things. And so I actually think that while I really, deeply wanted my marriage to work, I can remember the moment, September 19, 2023, when my ex husband called to tell me he was being extorted by someone that he had been unfaithful on me with. And my really, really close friend, who's also my confessional community, was staying in the same hotel with me the day that I found out. And I walk out into the hallway, and she holds me in the middle of the hallway, and I look up at her and I know she knows everything now. All the infidelity, all the addiction, everything. And I say, I have to leave. Right. I still was questioning whether or not I should leave. And this is. I mean, I'm having to get tested for hiv, aids. I mean, this is, like, not a small thing at all. I was so scared and so fragile, and I had such a codependency built on my husband that I just. I didn't know what to do. And my really close friend looks me and says, we would be concerned if you didn't tell me your marriage is no longer God honoring. The covenant has been broken again and again and again and again. And there is no repentance and no responsibilities being taken. And so, yeah, I needed friends to help me access a freedom that I did not want. My counselor said this was the rescue you needed, not the one you wanted. And I needed friends to help carry me through that. Wow.
- [47:09]
A
And it would have been so different if people. There wasn't a person who had your backstory.
- [47:13]
B
Yep. Yep.
- [47:15]
A
So different. Because how can you. You jump into that, you know, at square one.
- [47:20]
B
Yeah.
- [47:21]
A
No, no. You needed to have people that already knew. And so that's the point. Like, we don't know what's coming. So you have to have people in your life that already know. There's a lot in this book. I mean, especially in this day and age, I think, when people are so lonely. It's called don't try this alone. How to build deep community when you want to hide from your pain. Now, this is not your only book. You also have a book which I haven't read yet, but I like the title. Just the title is so healing. It's called Broken Crayons Still Color. Can you tell us about that?
- [47:48]
B
Oh, my gosh. It's the sweetest, cutest little kids book. And the whole reason why I wrote it was really for my daughter to tell her story in a way that protected her and also gave her some agency. I sat her down, talked with her about it, and she was like, absolutely. Like, I want to help other kids. I want other kids to know that you can have big feelings and still be so deeply loved by God. You can have big feelings and still make friends. You can have big feelings and also understand that, like, you can manage your feelings. And so Broken Crayons Still Color is that. It's the story of this little girl named Avery. And she's so nervous about her first day of school. She's alone. It's a brand new school. Her parents are encouraging her. She's trying to color to kind of calm her nerves and regulate her before school. She breaks all her crayons. The crayons come alive and help walk her through what it looks like to be rejected by some kids on the school bus. But then find a really sweet friend in class to lean into that one other girl that sees you deeply, that knows you, and that holds all your big feelings with you. And then at the very end, the crayons start to talk to Avery about what it looks like to begin to name her emotions. And in the back of the book, there's a little colors feelings wheel, but made specifically for kids ages 5 to 10. And it's awesome. It's. It's like. It's just the cutest book. We have not announced this either, but we're doing a second one right now. It's going to be all about anger. And we're so excited. We haven't done anything but, yeah, congrats.
- [49:20]
A
Oh, how exciting. Well, it's about redemption even in your life as a mom, right? As a. As a parent, as an adult. Like Broken Crayons Still Color. That's A very, very powerful statement because, you know, it's like everybody wants the pristine crayon. They want the one right out of.
- [49:35]
B
The box, sharpened, all their clothes on, still with their dignity.
- [49:39]
A
Right? Yeah. Yeah. But, man, those broken ones, you know, like, especially. Have you ever been to a restaurant where it's like, you know, they don't give you. Yeah. And they're all, like, broken. You're like, who other. What other kids is.
- [49:51]
B
What happened? This was in someone's mouth. Somebody's kid drooled on all three of these crayons. I know.
- [49:56]
A
Yeah. But they still color. And then you have the still coloring podcast. Tell us about that.
- [50:00]
B
Yeah, I love the still coloring podcast. I do it by seasons. So I will kind of pray and think through, like, what the theme is, and then I'll invite guests. And sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. But I'm very selective on who I bring on and the topic that I bring on. We even did a season called Little Kids, Big Feelings, and we had Sissy Goff on and Big Little Feelings on, like, all of these different people. But we're really very specific. We try to do very intentional seasons that can really, like, hit on a pain point, whether it's worship. We just did a Not alone series, and it's all about godly friendship. It's all about leaning into what it looks like to defeat shame. And so it's very, very specific. And it's awesome. I scream half the time. Honestly, I'm just, like, cackling. And every single season also has a psychologist or psychiatrist on it, so we can process it from a different angle. But it's super fun.
- [50:56]
A
Wow, I love that. Podcast can be so different. Isn't that, like, it's such a neat thing, you know, here and there. I'm sure you have it, too. People are like, I'm thinking about starting a podcast. I'm like, you should do it. Because you could. You could do it in seasons. You could do one every day. You could do one once a month. You could do one once a year. Like, whatever, however you want to do it. It can be, like, a guest and not a guest. A mix of it can be 15 minutes. It can be an hour and 20 minutes.
- [51:19]
B
Yeah, I usually do. Guess my last season was just me, and I was shocked by the response. Everyone was like, we loved it. And I was like, really? Because it was just me talking, you know, but they loved it, so.
- [51:30]
A
Which. It's got to be awkward. I. You know, like, you're like, I just.
- [51:34]
B
Want to Say that I want to name it.
- [51:35]
A
Just gonna talk and talk and to.
- [51:37]
B
The camera, literally looking at my own self. It was crazy. People loved it. They ate it up. One of my most listened to seasons. It's crazy.
- [51:45]
A
What is that season about? You just said it or no, you didn't. What is season six?
- [51:49]
B
It was like pain into purpose. Like, I just was, like sitting there in 30 minute increments telling my story about everything I'd been through this past two years. And people ate it up. Put some scripture up in there, Cried real hard. Snot cried all over the microphone, you know what I'm saying? But people just loved it. They were like, we just enjoyed. You had been holding everyone else's story. We were ready to hear yours. That's. And that's what it was. Yeah, it's good. Yeah.
- [52:14]
A
Oh, the still coloring podcast. Tony, what an honor. I'm so thrilled to have met you. What a cool thing. The book is fantastic. It's called don't try this alone. It's already out. You can get it. Wherever our books are sold, we always end our show with the same question. The question is, what's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside.
- [52:29]
B
Oh, I know it. I was in elementary school, Kaiser elementary, and they installed, like, this new little like the spinny Ferris wheel thing that's, like, on the ground, you know? And when I tell you, I mean, I used to, like, be the one that, like, had all my friends get on it, and then I would just, like, push it real, real fast and be like, let's go. And then I would hop on and we would all spin, and it was awesome. Wow. That was a core memory that I didn't even realize I had, but it was right there, and it was very specific. So there you go.
- [52:58]
A
And those are so unbelievably good for development. Spinning is so good for kids. They don't even have those anymore, you know, like, they.
- [53:05]
B
Well, we did almost die a couple times. A couple kids threw up. I mean, it was. You know. But anyways, it's so good for your.
- [53:11]
A
For your development of your. It's called vestibular sense. I mean, it's just wonderful for kids. So, you know, you're like. You don't even know. You're just having fun, but you're like, this is helping. That's how God made it. The fun things help kids develop. So, Toni, what an honor. Thank you so much for being here. Yay.
- [53:24]
B
Thank you for having me. Is Miss Universe back in fashion? Because all of a sudden, the beauty pageant is everywhere. Miss Mexico walked out of a gathering of contestants after being shouted at by the organizer, and then she went on to win the whole thing, catapulting the contest into the mainstream. People thought beauty contests were so last century, but could they actually teach us something about right now? Listen to the global story on Spotify.
- [53:58]
A
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