← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 635: The Cost of Convenience | Debra Williams, Mind Body Blend
00:53:49
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- [00:01]
Deborah Williams
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- [00:18]
Ginny Urch
Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Ginny Urch. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside, and I've got an Instagram friend on here with me today. We've actually been connected for years on Instagram, so that's pretty special. Special to meet over the. Deborah Williams, welcome.
- [00:34]
Deborah Williams
Thank you, Jenny. I appreciate it.
- [00:36]
Ginny Urch
I think we've been connected for years, and I don't even know where the connection came from, but we have a lot of similar interests. And you talk a lot about things that I'm interested in, like artificial intelligence and raising our kids, the different beauty standards that there are, growing up quickly and motherhood. A lot of these things that, you know, I think everybody is wrestling with. What's a little bit of your backstory? Yeah.
- [01:00]
Deborah Williams
So I'll try to summarize that the best I can. No, don't summarize.
- [01:03]
Ginny Urch
We're on together for an hour, so you just get to take your time.
- [01:07]
Deborah Williams
Sometimes I feel like I go into a book and I'm like, all right, do we have the time here? So I guess a bit about me is kind of going back, I would say. Let's see, 2009 is when I first got involved in the health and wellness industry professionally. So this was before becoming a mom and, you know, before ultimately, you know, when you do become a mom, a lot usually changes about who you are and the things that you do and the things that you care about, your priorities rightfully so, you know, that's kind of how it should be. So when I. When I was entering into the health and wellness field in 2009, I was. I started out in fitness and nutrition, and it was very much, funny enough, inspired by, I think, a friend. Maybe you've met her. Jillian Michaels.
- [02:10]
Ginny Urch
Oh, I've never met her, but I totally know who you're talking about.
- [02:13]
Deborah Williams
Oh, my gosh. I love Jillian. She's. I'm a huge fan. Girl of Jillian, because back in the day, I used to watch the Biggest Loser, like, religiously, and that was my jam. And I just remember deeply connecting with that show because not only, like, when I brought this up to other people, like, oh, the weight loss show, and I'm like, no, no, no, hold on a second. This is not just a weight Loss show. This is about people dramatically changing their lives from the inside. Mind, body and spirit. You know, like, this is a deep, complex process. So watching that show, it completely inspired me to want to do similar things. And it, I just felt it in my bones that I was supposed to do that. You know, it was pretty cool. So in 2009, I actually got laid off from a job in finance. So I was like, this is make or break time. Like, are we gonna go back into a 9 to 5 that you hate, or are you gonna take the leap of faith and do something that you feel deeply calling you to do? And so I chose to go into fitness and nutrition and I started just traveling down the path of multiple different certifications and a know self education and continuing education over the years. And I ended up getting a job inside of the Children's Hospital of Pittsburgh in the Health and Wellness employee health and wellness facility. That was brand new at the time. And it was a beautiful opportunity to really, you know, breathe life into the doctors, the nurses, the administrative staff at a hugely, you know, crucial hospital that takes care of tons and tons of kids and families. And so I was overjoyed about that experience. And it taught me a lot. It taught me, I will say majorly, that unfortunately, the, the medical industry, when it comes to real health, there's not a lot there preventatively going on that they're actually doing for people and that they're able to do for people because they're actually not trained and taught in that unless it's, you know, down the line, they take a special interest in it and they change paths. But, but most doctors and nurses have very little to no preventative health and wellness education or experience. And so this was mind blowing to me because I think, you know, being younger at that time, you are taught to, you know, look to doctors and nurses and respect them and that they know all the things. And so I very, very clearly learned that I knew a lot more than a lot of these doctors and nurses about real health and wellness and nutrition and preventatively staying healthy and strong than, you know, most of them did. And I was there to teach and train them in these modalities. And so that was crucial. That was crucial for where my mind went over the years and what I was exposed to and the perspective that I carry with me, just learning and seeing how very little they knew about that. And of course we can agree that there's a time and a place for emergency medicine and for the medical industry, but it was just very heavily reliant on pharmaceutical drugs and in surgical interventions. Pharmaceutical interventions. And it was a huge money maker, enormous business. So I saw the back end of that and it really opened my eyes even before I became a mom.
- [06:15]
Ginny Urch
So when you're talking about the preventative things, you know, they're not taught that and they don't really know about these different things that they could be helping families to do changes that they can make. What are some things that could be happening that would be more on the preventative side?
- [06:36]
Deborah Williams
For starters, some of the food that you'll find in hospitals is horrendous. That's something very, very basic. And I know we at the hospital at that time had a much better food selection in cafeteria than a lot of other hospitals do because it was brand new. So they were doing some state of the art things there that were a bit. So at least they had some options. But it was still just alarming to see and hear some of the foods that children and families who were sick that were staying in the hospital were still consuming. And this was never brought to their attention to change these things. And this is very, very basic. This is basic knowledge that a lot of doctors and nurses aren't tapping into this kind of wisdom to pass it along to families. Learn to read your ingredients, learn to look. If you're eating processed foods, this is like step one is just start to understand what you're putting into your body when you consume.
- [07:37]
Ginny Urch
Yeah. So food, the food is not part of the equation at all. Or at least wasn't at that time. I mean, I even remember I. We had two of our babies in the hospital and three at home.
- [07:45]
Deborah Williams
Yeah.
- [07:45]
Ginny Urch
And like the meal that you could get or I mean, it was just not. When you think of like nourishing, healing food, it's not that. So it's an aside. Like it's not, they're not, they're not taking the food and being like this is part of the equation. It's just whatever, it's just calories. It's just whatever they can.
- [08:05]
Deborah Williams
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I actually have a message. It's called count chemicals, not calories because it speaks to that, you know, like how important it is to actually be mindful of the toxins that you're putting into your body through not just your food, but your water and, you know, your environment now in general. And sure, you know, it's, it's okay to be aware of calories, but that is honestly, if you're eating nourishing food that comes from the earth that's whole, you're not going to really need to count calories, you know, and these other.
- [08:43]
Ginny Urch
Things that you brought up are also preventative ideas. The water, the environment.
- [08:47]
Deborah Williams
Absolutely.
- [08:48]
Ginny Urch
And then you, you know, if you insert some of that, it's not going to alleviate everything. But I tell people we've not needed a doctor's appointment for our kids since we started getting outside, so, you know, that's not going to be the same case for everybody, but nothing acute. And it does change things for your overall family health now, since then. So this was a while ago. Now you've had kids. And how was it integrating kids into this knowledge that you have? Yeah.
- [09:12]
Deborah Williams
So interestingly, you know, you say that you haven't really, you know, had any major health issues with your kids since you've started to make some of these lifestyle changes. And you're getting outside and you're prioritizing that. You're prioritizing the outdoor time, the sunshine, the grounding, the power of nature, and just being out there and letting them have a childhood that is. That is so powerful, and it's so simple. And we are, I think, in these modern days, just really forgetting about how impactful that is. And so when I became a mom, I actually worked all the way through both of my pregnancies, like, still teaching, training as much as I possibly could, and I was very active during both my pregnancies, so I never had any issues. Both really healthy babies. However, with my first, my husband and I, we started to ask questions about, am I allowed to say the V word on here? I don't know.
- [10:09]
Ginny Urch
Vagina? No.
- [10:12]
Deborah Williams
Injections.
- [10:13]
Ginny Urch
Oh, vaccine.
- [10:14]
Deborah Williams
Yeah.
- [10:15]
Ginny Urch
Yes, I think so. I don't know. I was like, what is the V word? I was thinking, what is all the V words? I thought vagina, and then I thought vbac. But I was like, that wouldn't be a V word. Vaccines. And I don't. I think you're allowed to.
- [10:28]
Deborah Williams
Some platforms, honestly don't want you to use the word vaccine because it can be. It can be very highly censored. It can be a very highly censored.
- [10:37]
Ginny Urch
Word if we're going for it, because that sounds ridiculous. It shouldn't be censored. Actually. A really, really big part of childhood. We've got vaccine injury in our story, and so I think it's something everybody needs to talk about. It definitely shouldn't be censored. People need to have conversations.
- [10:51]
Podcast Announcer
It matters.
- [10:52]
Deborah Williams
It does. And I think that's become so taboo, though, even questioning it. That's been, you know, that's Been a lot of my journey is just questioning what are so called norms. Right. Using critical thinking, you know, to challenge some of these things that we've been taught are good for us or that are normal. Even looking at like food pyramid, which is so like backwards, you know. But we started to question vaccines for my, my first, my son. And you know, we immediately, pretty much immediately within the first few months, found out from, you know, just going to pediatricians that they did not like that they did not like it.
- [11:35]
Ginny Urch
Yeah. And in some cases you can't even get a pediatrician. It's really hard. Yeah.
- [11:40]
Deborah Williams
Right. Well, so for us though, we didn't necessarily know. I had one nurse friend who actually started to tell me when I was pregnant. She's like, you need to look into an alternative schedule. And I'm like, okay. And I had no idea really what the magnitude of that even meant at the time. Because all I remember and my husband remembers is, you know, when we were babies getting what, like a handful of different shots. And that was back then in the 80s. And now, you know, children are getting up to, I believe it's 72 or even over that on the recommended schedule for children 18 and under. So it's out of control. And if you have an infant and then you're being, you know, recommended by a pediatrician or a doctor who's supposed to be someone trusted to. To get all of these different injections, you know, many of them are multiple different things at one time and you're having doubts about it. And you start to express those doubts, you are met with resistance and often just fear mongering and them not wanting to deal with it at all. And if, you know, they do, oftentimes people just get kicked out of practices altogether.
- [12:57]
Ginny Urch
There's a lot going on there. It's important to know if you're gonna. Everyone gets to make their choice. But I feel like an uninformed choice is not really a ch. That because you don't, you know, you don't totally know. And so those are good things to know about. And I feel like if you get kicked out of a pediatrician because you don't take every single shot, I feel like that's tyranny.
- [13:16]
Deborah Williams
Absolutely. 100% it is. I agree with you. And you know, that's what I very quickly started to find out as a new mom. And so we ended up not continuing past. I think it was maybe, I don't remember the last one, maybe around nine months or something. And I was just like, I can't do this anymore. Then I started noticed some issues with my son. Allergies, eczema, ear infections. And I'm like, what is going on? He was a breastfed baby. I was super healthy. I'm like, where is this stuff coming from? Right. And so I think that's. That's what a lot of parents go through is just asking what's. What's going on here with my kid, if they do have issues. And then you're going to a pediatrician who doesn't actually know how to treat those things and get to the root cause of those things. And so they're just going to slap more pharmaceuticals on top of it is how they're trained.
- [14:14]
Ginny Urch
Someone's making a lot of money.
- [14:16]
Deborah Williams
Yeah. Yep.
- [14:17]
Ginny Urch
What's interesting, I like those. I always like those little cartoons. Oh, I don't know if I would even say I like them. I just feel like they're very telling. They have those cartoons that's like, only give your baby one new food a week at a time. And then they're like, but, you know, this is when they're six months, seven months, eight months, it's like. But they can take six shots all at once or whatever. It's like, when you talk about critical thinking and questioning norms. Yep.
- [14:40]
Deborah Williams
And working with a lot of doctors and nurses, there's such a cognitive dissonance that just people can't even oftentimes have the conversation.
- [14:48]
Ginny Urch
Yeah.
- [14:49]
Deborah Williams
Without becoming incredibly triggered. And I will tell you at one of a local event that I did a few years ago with my advocacy apparel that I, you know, create, and I used to put out messages like, you know, just say no to medical tyranny, medical bullying, you know, and so on. And I had at one of my events, a doctor walk up to me, pick up the shirt, and she was looking at it, and she asked me, what does this mean? And I was like, well, you know, and this was pretty early on. I think it was maybe 2021 or 2022, and people were still deep in. In the fear. So, you know, I just. I just gently went into explaining it. And that's the fun thing kind of about doing public events that are, like, not niche. This was like a beer and seafood festival here in Florida. Right. So, like, wide open, you can talk to anyone. But I kind of love it because I'm really into planting seeds and starting conversations that, like, one of my big things is, like, in person, we need to have these conversations because I think, you know, a lot of us are doing it online, but it's very Powerful if we're willing to and able to do it in person. And so, like, a lot of the shirts and the hats that I make, they're kind of like walking billboards for certain messages. And so it's super cool. And it's been really cool for me over the years to experience the conversations that have been started by just wearing something and then someone commenting on it. And I've heard so many stories just like that. Most of them very, very positive and extremely, you know, like, encouraging to hear that people have, like, made, like, connections, they've carried on and they've been able to share incredible information with other people because of it. But this woman was very angry and she. I can count on one hand how many times this happens. Very, very few times. But, you know, people get this angry. But this woman just went off on me and she said, well, I'm an ER doctor and I will tell you what, you know, this is, this is not acceptable. And she, her husband was standing there with her and they were just very angry with me because I was telling them about how medical bullying was taking place over the force, the forcing of the vaccine at that time, you know, I said, do you think it's right that people are losing their jobs and their livelihoods? And I just started to ask a lot of questions and they just became increasingly more and more irate with me. It. It was one of the conversations, like I said, that I remember very clearly, but this woman was not able to think outside of the box that she was trained to have her mind live in.
- [17:37]
Ginny Urch
Right.
- [17:37]
Deborah Williams
These people, a lot of them just cannot, you know, think outside of that because it's like a very religious type belief that even if you question it, it's like blasphemy or dogmatic. You know, it's very, very interesting. But, you know, that's. That's just one of the things that, you know, I've run into with, with certain people and of course, I try not to do that too often. It's not very pleasant. You really want to be, you know, hopefully talking to people that at least are open to hearing a different perspective, because arguing with people that are just completely unopened to hearing is no fun at all.
- [18:16]
Ginny Urch
Yeah, it's like, well, let's talk about it. Let's talk about why my son lost his ability to walk. That doesn't happen. That's not normal. And, you know, it happened the day after shots. So, I mean, that's never happened before. It hasn't happened since, you know, that. Can we talk about why does this one have eczema and that one doesn't? And, you know, all of these different things. It's like, I like that that's. I mean, that's what you say in your bio. You are a conversation starter and a seed planter. Because the thing is, is that if you don't know at all that it's not an informed. If it's not an important decision, it's not actually your decision. If you haven't had the opportunity to think it through and to know what's out there, because you. You do, you can have these really big regrets just because you didn't know.
- [18:55]
Deborah Williams
Right.
- [18:55]
Ginny Urch
And I think that it matters. So we should be able to talk about it. Like, I should be able to say, is it weird that they just keep saying vaccine over and over and over and over again when we already have so many vaccines and the health is in the toilet? So can we talk about something else, please? Like, something is off here. It's really, really odd. So.
- [19:14]
Deborah Williams
Well, it's like bring back the art of debate. Right. Like, what happened to being able to have respectful debate? That. That is civil and people don't absolutely flip their lid and lose their minds. It's just, you know, it's gotten super, super intense over the years to where you can't even do that around certain topics. Like vaccines is one of them.
- [19:33]
Ginny Urch
Yeah. And you're like, oh, that's convenient. Yeah. Or someone who's making a lot of money. I mean, it's really convenient. Of course they can do all sorts of those things. You know, they hire all sorts of people to come in and, like, leave comments and trolls and all that kind of stuff. That stuff is real and it's. It's, you know, I mean, it's not even like a. Whatever. Like, everybody knows that. Like, they hire all these people to come in and box and things like that.
- [19:55]
Deborah Williams
Damage. Yep. Damage control.
- [19:57]
Ginny Urch
Yeah.
- [19:57]
Deborah Williams
Yeah, it's a control that. It's. To control the narrative. Yeah.
- [20:00]
Ginny Urch
And to make it so that you feel like you can't talk about something because you're going to lose all these followers and so you just don't say anything.
- [20:06]
Deborah Williams
I've seen enough.
- [20:09]
Ginny Urch
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- [21:17]
Podcast Announcer
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- [22:25]
Ginny Urch
So the healthy advocacy apparel is called Mind Body Blend people. I'll make sure I put a link in the show notes and you've got like. I mean, they're really cute. Are you wearing one right now? I mean, your apparel is so cute.
- [22:34]
Deborah Williams
I am. Yeah, it's. This one's like pretty new. It's the world is my classroom. So yeah, it's super fun because we're actually going to be homeschooling this fall for the first time. Yeah. So that's kind of like, you know, super exciting for us and also very, very different because my kids have been in school. My daughter's 10, my son is 12. They've been in school, you know, from kindergarten on, five day a week school. And it's been happening in private school. So there's a story behind that. You know, my kids were never force masked and I was never going to send them to a school and under those conditions. So I was willing to homeschool back in 2020. But God put this really cool, health conscious, you know, faith based school into our path back then that was very small. It was pretty much a micro school at that time. So it was like a dream come true. And so we enrolled there and Florida is really cool because we have scholarships that cover alternative education options, which is beautiful. And I really hope in this that there's more and more of that that being worked on in legislation to actually give parents a real choice, which we need more of. So I'm fully in support of that.
- [23:51]
Ginny Urch
And if there is a real choice, then that means everybody wins because that means the quality of everything has to go up and we have to figure out like, why are the literacy rates so low? And we actually have to do things about that. And I, I do think that that's good for everyone. It's good for society as a whole for it not to be a monopoly and for there to be these other alternatives.
- [24:08]
Deborah Williams
Absolutely.
- [24:09]
Ginny Urch
So you've got this shirt that says the world is my classroom. And then you've got other ones that are like critical thinking, only you can prevent its extinction. So they're fun. They are, they're conversation starters. Healthy advocacy apparel. Super fun. So people can check that out. One of the things that you talk about quite a bit, which is something that I love talking about because. Yeah, I think it just needs to be talked about so, so, so much we should be talking about it all the time. Is AI.
- [24:33]
Deborah Williams
Yeah.
- [24:34]
Ginny Urch
And how is AI affecting our humanity and how is it affecting our parenting and how is it going to affect our children? So you even talk about this is pretty interesting that you avoid gps for the most part.
- [24:46]
Deborah Williams
I do, yeah. I'm so glad you brought that up because I think this is something that I've shared with, you know, multiple friends and my husband and I even debate over it because he'll still use it and he's one of those people that's like, well, I use it so I can see, you know, what the roads are like, and how much traffic's out there and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, yeah, I get it. Like, so I see, you know, it's not 100% black and white, but I also do challenge him. I'm like, hey, you know, don't you. You've been this way multiple times before if it's something simple, right? And, like, don't you know the way there? And he's like, oh, I don't. I don't know. I don't pay attention. That's a lot of people, right? Is I. I don't really pay attention anymore. Isn't that interesting, right? Like that we just have been now conditioned and programmed to not pay attention or do certain things that we have always done that have really kept our brains sharp and kept us human and aware. And so I've been very much like an advocate for my kids over the years as they've grown up, to not be on screens in the car, to be looking around, to know and understand where they're at, that pay attention to landmarks and just be aware. Right? It's just general awareness. And my mom always taught me that growing up, and I always had to, you know, on trips, pull out the map and do that with her. And, you know, I thought it was so great. And there's just always opportunities to be teaching your kids through all of these things if we're willing to do it and if we're willing to sometimes take the more challenging road instead of the easier option, which is AI or, you know, something technology driven, that does it for us, and it does the work for us. So, you know, for example, if I'm in the car and I've been somewhere, you know, one time at least, I should know the way back. So I will not. I will not turn the GPS on, even if I'm still a little unsure. I like to challenge myself to actually see if I can get there, because then I'm forming constant neural pathways in my brain in the right way, and I am actively utilizing my memory and strengthening it instead of allowing a computer or a system or something artificial do it for me.
- [27:08]
Ginny Urch
That's good. It's just a little thing. That's a little change. But what you talk about is that the growing normalized use and independence on artificial intelligence and all these other technologies, that dependence is dumbing us down. It's dumbing humans down and subtly, subtly chipping away at the Ability to critically and independently think, process and discern. So when you're talking about device addictiveness, you have this quote that was like on the scale between candy and crack cocaine, that the devices are really closer to crack cocaine.
- [27:39]
Deborah Williams
Absolutely. You know, the studies are out there. It's, it's not, this is not new information at this point, you know, and I think actually that's kind of, that's cool for me to see now. More parents caring than a few years ago. I have seen a bit of a shift, which for me I'm very grateful to see it. I recently started a local mindful low tech group on Facebook for local parents to just connect with each other so that we can build community and, you know, hang out, have our kids hang out and not have to, you know, be worried about another child who's just staring at a screen or scrolling through TikTok or something like that.
- [28:22]
Ginny Urch
You know, that is really tricky. I'm glad that you brought that up. We've actually never talked about that. This in particular, this situation on this show, which it's so interesting, I think, Deborah, because there aren't necessarily books out yet about the little nuances of like what it's like. So, you know, there's all these situations of like, well, what it, what is it like if you're the parent that has some sort of a container when people come to your house that they have to put their phone in and you've got a 15 year old and they're embarrassed in front of their friends, like, what, what about that? But all. But, you know, this is a particular situation. The one you just brought up is that when you get together with a big group and one kid is on their phone the whole time and that's sort of sucking in all of the other kids and maybe the parent is there or something like that. So what do you do? Like, do you say something to the parent? Do you say something to the kid?
- [29:10]
Deborah Williams
Right, right. And that's a tricky situation to navigate and I don't think there's one way to handle it. But you know, it's funny you say there's not really any books on this yet. Maybe I'll write one because I care so deeply about this and really making sure that like your mission, we give kids a real chance at childhood, having a childhood that is beautiful and magical and as untainted as possible by all of these forces that are trying to really get them hooked and addicted. And so, you know, for me, I know we can't go back to like little House on the Prairie days, right? Like, it's not realistic, but you can.
- [29:51]
Ginny Urch
I think in a, in a micro way. Like, I think if you do have a Facebook group where you're like, these are Mike. Now obviously there was no Facebook during Little House in the Parade. But if you are able to connect through online, I guess, or even in your neighborhood, if you're able to connect with other people who have like minded ideals, then you can in small ways get together and not have screens. So the proactive approach I almost think is better, Deborah, because you're like, okay, let me find the people. And then I would imagine that as word gets out, it's enticing. And so more and more people are like, I'd like to try that.
- [30:24]
Deborah Williams
Absolutely. And that's actually interesting that you mentioned that because when I started the group, I think I have another group locally too. I'm just big on local community, right? So I have like a local holistic moms group on Facebook too. And that's grown tremendously and it's an awesome resource in our community. And we'll do get togethers and it's super cool to see like new moms come in and be able to connect with people that are like minded and have similar values and that they can learn from and grow from. And it's, it's, it's really wonderful, you know, because I think it eliminates that, you know, people feeling isolated when they're coming into new motherhood. And like, I just, just can't find anyone that, you know, understands or I can't, you know, the other moms that I know, they won't talk about vaccines. So that kind of bridges that gap for these women and these moms and these parents. So I love that. And I wanted to do something similar in the low tech, you know, screen time area as well. And so I just started this not long ago. And so I put some questions in the group to just kind of see where people were at when they're joining. And I think one of the questions is something along the lines of, you know, do your children use devices right now? And if so, is that something that you are, you know, like looking to move away from or continue? And so a lot of the responses have been from parents that are like, I'm looking to move away from this, like, how do I get plugged in? And this is the interesting thing about this, Jenny, right? Is that a lot of what's going on with screens and cell phones and smartphones and social media with children, it's driven by peer pressure. Yeah, it's highly driven by peer pressure. And so if we take that element and we flip it around and we shift the paradigm and we create spaces that are safe for kids to just be kids and we take that element away, we are going to see more parents encouraged to resist the peer pressure and stand strong for their kids in this area and be educated, be informed, be aware of the very real risks and consequences that are very natural in that space. When you start to introduce that stuff too early.
- [32:49]
Ginny Urch
Right. Because the pressure is. Is for the kids and it's also for the parents. Like, the peer pressure is a very, very intense. And that's different than how it used to be. Yes. Like, I had peer pressure to wear certain clothes and I didn'. Right. But my parents didn't have that pressure. You know, they. They didn't have the same pressure, but the phone piece is so all consuming. Can you give a little bit more specifics about the groups and how you run them and what you do to get together for someone who's listening, who's maybe thinking, I would like to try the same thing in my local area?
- [33:16]
Deborah Williams
Absolutely. I think that's honestly such a big part of what I aim to do is just empower parents to not only just listen to this and say, oh, that sounds like a great idea, I like the sound of it, but let's put it into action. And why not, why not be the one in your community to start something like this? Why not be the one to build and grow and be a part of creating a shift and a safe place for kids to just be kids and to welcome parents in to where that peer pressure is removed? So really, I think for me, I've already been sharing on social media for many years, but it wasn't like that. You know, pre2020, I did not have a following. I did not want a following. I was not trying to get a following at all by any means, but simply just using my voice and standing up for what I believed in in 2020 about children. Not fear conditioning them, not force masking them, allowing them to, you know, be free from a lot of that psychological and spiritual warfare. I just continue to speak up on it and about real health. And it was very interesting. You know, at that time, people were very hungry to hear it. And if you believed it, you or we were often afraid to talk about it. But I. Something in me was like, you need to. There was no fear here. There was no fear for me. There was nothing that I had to lose to speak up about this stuff. And so I think that's an internal thing that we have to get, you know, right with within ourselves is like, am I willing to, like, what really matters to you? Does it matter to you more what people think about you, your status, whatever else it is that you're hanging onto so tightly, or are you willing to put it on the line for your kids, for their future, for the next generation?
- [35:07]
Ginny Urch
Yeah, it's for the sake of all kids. And that's the whole thing. I think that's one of the pieces that we've missed. And people are starting to talk about it just a little bit, just a little, little bit, which is what is our responsibility. You know, I feel like we're so individualized. It's like such an individualistic, individualism culture in America. It's like, me, me, me, my house, my house. But it's like, well, what is our responsibility to the greater community? And by having a local group, which is not anything that's going to get you famous or, you know, and people are sometimes weird and annoying. I mean, probably I'm weird and annoying. And so you open yourself up to, you know, dealing with people that you like. Maybe they're not your best friend, but you're. You're opening up the door for a lot of different people to have relationships and then for these kids to have experiences that are away from screens. And it's not just about your own household.
- [36:00]
Deborah Williams
Yeah, it's about, like, for me, I like to say, kind of building bridges. Like, for me, I can't be friends with and connect with everyone. Right. Like, I don't have the bandwidth or the capacity. Like, I don't even have many friendships these days that are like. Like, really, you know, super dangerous friendships.
- [36:18]
Ginny Urch
Yeah.
- [36:18]
Deborah Williams
Like, I just stay focused on my family, focused on, you know, kind of the things that God's like, put in my path to speak up about and advocate for. And we do have, you know, some incredible people that have been brought into our lives, and I'm grateful for that. But it was only through losing people and losing things and then being replaced by, you know, things that are much more in line with our values and where we really, really want to be. And so there is that period of time that you have to sometimes be willing to go through where, you know, you may feel somewhat alone. But I promise, if you keep up with this stuff, the people, if you build it, they're going to come. The people will find you. They will find you. And so that's kind of what I've witnessed Over the past, you know, five or so years is just not being afraid to speak up, not being afraid to stand up for my kids and what I believe in and what I want to create and build and what I'm being called to create and build and then just kind of going for it. And it's like, well, what's this? What's the harm in this? Nothing. Nothing. What's the gain? Everything. You know, like.
- [37:31]
Ginny Urch
Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. I mean, I think that's a really important thing. If you build it, they will come in. People maybe are not used to building it or they're used other people building and joining in. But things have changed. And Sally Clarkson, I don't know if you know who she is, but she has written all these books, beautiful books. And she would talk about how she just, like, she didn't have to because she probably already had a lot of relationships because she's this author and she'd do all these conferences, but she was constantly opening up her home. And she would say that, like, on occasion the cops would come because they would be like, there's too many cars in your street and you're going to have to move your event to, like, an actual place and not in your home. And so she would do things like that. And I just met this woman. I spoke at a school district in Minnesota, and two moms came up to me, and one of them, they were doing this together, but I think one of the moms had started it, and they called it Girls Adventure Club. And they had daughters, and they were doing all these adventures with their daughters. Like, they would all just go camping together. And it was just growing so rapidly that she was possibly going to, like, she's going to put it out on a website and other people can start their own Girls Adventure Club. And I just thought, well, gosh, that would really probably solve the whole thing. Like, if everybody could just, like, start something small in your local community and offer something where we come and hang out without screens, that would probably change quite a bit.
- [38:48]
Deborah Williams
Absolutely. Like I said, it's just being willing to. If you see something, you see it differently. It's just being willing to talk to other people about that idea. Welcome. Like, brainstorming, you know, like, write it down, speak about it, talk about it. Because as soon as we start to talk about these things, that's when we start to slowly build community around the values that matter to us and around creating these. These shifts that we really desperately want as parents for our kids.
- [39:23]
Ginny Urch
Let's talk about one Last topic surrounding the screens, which is that the screens, especially for girls, are leading toward these unrealistic beauty standards. And that feels also like by design. Right. Because if you're dissatisfied with the way that you look, then you're going to buy more products. And so that's a really interesting way to look at filters and things like that. Can you talk about how you're dealing with that in your home? I know you have a daughter.
- [39:50]
Deborah Williams
Yes, absolutely. And I think this is such a loaded topic. There's so much here and we're just not going to get to it all. But I think what's really important to focus on on is a very recent post of mine went into depth about this topic and there was a reel that I put up not long ago, maybe two weeks ago, that kind of went viral and I was kind of shocked by it and I was honestly like beautifully surprised at how many mothers responded to this reel. It was just a 20 second clip of my daughter playing with a few of her stuffed animals like on our living room floor. And the response was mind blowing because, you know, we're not seeing that a lot from, you know, 10 year old girls. Most of the 10 year old girls that you're seeing out there are doing skincare routines, makeup routines.
- [40:48]
Podcast Announcer
Dance.
- [40:49]
Ginny Urch
Yeah.
- [40:50]
Deborah Williams
Dance. And it's, you know, in super skimpy clothing.
- [40:54]
Ginny Urch
Yeah. Not like, not like dance, like fun dance. Like it's like. Right, right, right.
- [40:58]
Deborah Williams
Yeah, it's just different. It's different, you know, and, and so my daughter loves to dance, but she like choreographs her own like dances to like worship music, you know, like it's just.
- [41:09]
Ginny Urch
Yes, our girls do the same thing that like they like to do, but when it's that pressure like, like. Let me give you an example. I've told this story before, but when our oldest daughter was in, in fourth grade and now she's in ninth, so this is five years ago, she was on this rec basketball through a church league like by her house. It was like six or eight weeks, weeks and she's in the fourth grade. She didn't have a phone. I was like, of course she doesn't have a phone. She's in the fourth grade. So we went to pictures, the picture day and she went and got her pictures taken with the team and then there was extra time because the pictures and then the game didn't start. So there was this little cove where the girls were hanging out, all these fourth graders and every single one of them had a phone except for my daughter and they were filming tic tac dances. So that's what I'm saying. Like the ones where you're. And I feel like probably maybe TikTok has changed. But at the beginning it seemed like TikTok was like, that's what it was. It was like people would do choreographed dances and then you would copy it. Yeah, maybe that was like how TikTok started.
- [42:08]
Deborah Williams
I think I remember being at a wedding like several years ago that they had a like tick tock station and like it had props and all kinds of stuff for people to do. TikTok. So I'm pretty sure, yeah, you're right on about that. Like that's what it was originally was a lot of just like dancing.
- [42:25]
Ginny Urch
Yeah. So that when I think about the dancing that I'm thinking about that in terms of like it's just for show or it's just for like getting caught up in the whatever everybody else is doing. Similar to the makeup routine.
- [42:37]
Deborah Williams
It's the, it's the trend. What is the latest trend? Right. Which is that it ties right back to the peer pressure. So instead of like us telling our kids like, no, peer pressure is not great, like we need to use discernment. So many parents are just like, yeah, sure. You feel left out. Sure, sure thing. Let's just compromise all of our values. Let's get you a cell phone, let's go to Sephora, let's get you a Stanley cup, let's buy the Lululemon leggings that you're gonna grow out of in six months.
- [43:09]
Ginny Urch
It's like, and you hear it, it's all about buying things.
- [43:14]
Deborah Williams
Yes. Consumerism. That was the highlight of that reel was, you know, this is a 10 year old girl, she is using her imagination. She's riding her bike, she's coloring, she's drawing, she's doing creative, you know, things that a 10 year old girl really should be allowed to do. She's not shopping at Sephora or Ulta or Lululemon. She's just being kid who's not hijacked by consumerism. And it really is just a call out to parents like like, please, like be aware, protect your kids minds and hearts because the industry is coming for them. It is coming for them earlier and earlier and earlier. And it's because when you put a device in their hands, you are immediately allowing the world to influence them. You are immediately allowing industry and whoever is paying for ads and wants to create a customer for life, you're putting that right into their hands. When you hand them this stuff And I see it, it's just so pervasive. And a lot of the parents don't even realize. They're like, well, it's just fun. There's just, there's nothing to it. And I'm like, hey, this is, you know, the latest post that I wrote. I'm like, this is why. It's not just fun. This is deep conditioning and programming and it's like the same as the pharmaceutical industry, honestly. And I've read. I don't know if you've read this book. It's the Truth about the drug companies by Dr. Marcia angel or Angel, I forget to how to pronounce her last name, but she was the former editor in chief of New England Journal of Medicine and she just wrote this book exposing the pharmaceutical industry for what it was. It's a marketing machine. It is a marketing machine, you know, and so it's just the same thing in a different package. It's like, how can we, you know, the same with the food.
- [45:08]
Ginny Urch
It's all the same. Yes, it's all the same playbook. And the playbook is this Edward Bernays guy who wrote a book called Propaganda decades ago. And they all use the same. It's like the same set of tools.
- [45:20]
Deborah Williams
Yes, absolutely.
- [45:21]
Ginny Urch
Now powered by artificial intelligence to make it. Yeah, dig a little deeper.
- [45:27]
Deborah Williams
Right, right. Overall, that's really what it comes down to is just like, like being aware of this stuff. And if you're still making those choices and you're informed and you're aware, then it's on you. But, you know, one of my big things is just continuing to share this awareness so that at least people, you know, who are raising kids that are younger than mine can learn from the things that I have opened my eyes to and that we've been through and the challenges that we've had to, you know, develop an intense amount of, you know, resilience through with my daughter, you know, for example, in this area. And it's been a really good opportunity for her to build up her, you know, true self worth, her confidence and her value, and reminding her constantly that this is not found in material things. And unfortunately, I think so many of us have seen it. But younger and younger girls are, you know, more and more depressed. Mental health issues, you know, the risks for suicide go up. You know, when you hand over these devices, when you hand over things that are making them feel that they do not measure up, that they do not fit in, and that they need these things to feel like they're okay and they're Good enough. Then, you know, that's. That's a huge issue.
- [46:53]
Ginny Urch
I saw this real one time where this. And it was real. It was a. Like a. I mean, real in terms of, like, it was someone's morning routine. Yeah. And it was so intense. It was so intense. It was like the person wakes up and they have some sort of a mask on that they peel off, and then they're doing all this lymphatic massage. And then that, like, stone thing, the geisha. I don't even know what it's called. I don't even know how to say it. And then it was like. Like, then they had, like, this red light therapy mask on. And then they were doing all of these teeth things and all these. And it's whatever. I mean, it's good to take care of yourself. But in that short clip, it's like, well, how much money is represented in that one morning's worth of whatever you're doing? And also, like, that's a lot of pressure. You know, this is an adult. This was an adult, you know, where you're like, I mean, I don't even. I'm like, I don't even have time to brush my hair. You know, if you got little kids, what do you like? And then you're like, shoot, well, someone else is doing that. I'm gonna be like some wrinkled old mess. And they, you know, but you. Everybody ages.
- [47:53]
Deborah Williams
Everyone ages.
- [47:55]
Ginny Urch
It's gonna happen to you even if you do all those 1,000 things. And so you do talk a lot about aging gracefully.
- [48:00]
Deborah Williams
Yes.
- [48:01]
Ginny Urch
Dr. Susan Lynn, she's written several books, but one of the things that she talks a lot about is the loss of middle childhood. And she says that's ages 6 to 12 and that kids really should still be playing. And in fact, if you look at old books, I mean, girls would play dolls and stuff till. Absolutely. And then probably they had their own. And then they could have their own babies. Right. Like, puberty probably started at 15, 16. So it's like, maybe you were meant to play with dolls, and then you're actually having your own baby. Like, that's the way it worked biologically. Yeah. And it just really changed. I mean, kids are stopping buying these toys sometimes when they're 5, 6, 7 years old. So I think it's wonderful when kids still play. And, you know, 6 to 12, to me, that's the natural break. I think that if you put your kids in school, it should go K to 6, and then 7, 8, 7, 8, 9. It should be 7, 8, 9, junior high, not middle school. So K to 6, 7, 8, 9, and then 10 to 12. Because there's a very big difference between a 15 year old and a 14 year old. And it's incredibly noticeable. And I do not think that ninth graders should be in with the seniors. I think that they should be with the seventh graders. And that is the end of my opinion.
- [49:08]
Deborah Williams
I love it. I agree. I do. Really. You know, my son's 12, so I. I see that for sure.
- [49:13]
Ginny Urch
Yeah. Should still be in Elementary. A 12 year old should still be in elementary because they should still be playing with the second graders. Like there should still be that interaction with the little kids. They're not ready for the next level yet. So when schools do K to 6, 7 to 9, junior high and 10 to 12, I'm like, I applaud. It's very rare. But I do think that that's wonderful. That's just a total side thing that has nothing to do with anything.
- [49:33]
Podcast Announcer
It's just.
- [49:34]
Deborah Williams
No, it's actually a whole model of education now, which is one of the. That's where we're going is. Is something called Apogee, which is.
- [49:42]
Ginny Urch
Yeah, Matt. So this guy Matt. Yep.
- [49:45]
Deborah Williams
Matt Boudreaux.
- [49:46]
Ginny Urch
Yeah. He endorsed my latest book.
- [49:48]
Deborah Williams
Amazing. I love Matt. He's a great guy. Great guy.
- [49:52]
Ginny Urch
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that's wonderful. Yeah. Okay. This has been really eye opening. And if people are interested in finding more, you are. Deborah Williams. It's Xo Deborah Williams on Instagram. And also the Mind Body Blend if people want to check out those fun shirts that can get you in heated conversations with doctors or maybe wonderful conversations with the people that you're hoping to connect.
- [50:13]
Deborah Williams
Yes.
- [50:13]
Ginny Urch
Just out and about in your community so people can find that there. And I' Sure. I put the links in the show notes. You say your family does not need pharma products to survive in the world. As a good statement. For too long we have been systematically disconnected from our divine purpose and intuition, ability and ancient wisdom when it comes to our children. So people can follow along and connect with you where you are and maybe in person if they're down in Florida by you, but certainly online if they're not there. We always end our show with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood? That was outside.
- [50:45]
Deborah Williams
Oh, man. Okay, so this is such a great question. I love it. I remember climbing huge, enormous trees constantly in my neighborhood, running through back alleyways, riding bikes into ditches and like berry picking. Berry picking. And also honeysuckles. Oh, and one more Lightning bugs. I know. That's a lot of memories.
- [51:12]
Ginny Urch
What are honeysuckles?
- [51:14]
Deborah Williams
So they're the little flowers that are. They grow on bushes, big bushes, and you pick off the flower and you basically pull the end of the stem off of the flower and you kind of like pinch the bottom of the flower and you pull out the. What's that inner part like? It's that little. It's the part that. That gathers, like, where the. The nectar is lying inside of the flower. It pulls it right out and you just lick it and it's, like, sweet, like honey. It's awesome.
- [51:50]
Ginny Urch
Is this a Florida thing?
- [51:52]
Deborah Williams
No. So I grew up in Pennsylvania, so that's Pittsburgh. Oh, yeah.
- [51:56]
Ginny Urch
I wonder if they have honeysuckle in Michigan then. I've never even heard of that. I mean, I've heard the word, but I didn't know. That's so fun. So many fun, simple memories. I love it. Deborah, this has been such a treat. I know, like I said, we've been connected online for a while, but to get a cheer, chance to spend an hour together and talk about the V. The V word. That's so funny. The B word. I was like, I don't. I don't know any V words.
- [52:18]
Deborah Williams
Am I the first person to ever say that to you?
- [52:21]
Ginny Urch
Well, I mean, in all reality, it's like the people that I've talked to, I mean, vaccines has come up some, but not a ton. I don't know. And I've just talked about it, but I don't think maybe if you put it, like, on YouTube or something.
- [52:36]
Deborah Williams
I mean, there's been an intense amount of censorship over the years on Instagram as well, and on, you know, just different platforms, depending what it is. But I think we're getting a little bit further away from that. But.
- [52:46]
Ginny Urch
Yeah. I don't know, though. I mean, there's always going to be pushback because there's a lot of money being made. So it's definitely a tricky time. So we're just sharing our stories over here, and I think it matters because people need to be informed about risks and different things like that. So what an honor to hang out together and we might see each other.
- [53:04]
Deborah Williams
Yes. Two weeks from today.
- [53:07]
Podcast Announcer
Yes.
- [53:07]
Deborah Williams
Yeah.
- [53:08]
Ginny Urch
At the FPA convention. And it is the biggest homeschool convention in the world, actually, so it is a wonderful one. I'm excited to see you there.
- [53:17]
Deborah Williams
Yeah, I can't wait. Thank you so much.
- [53:23]
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- [53:52]
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