1KHO 639: Escaping the Attention Economy | Sharon Hodde Miller, Gazing at God

Summary

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The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast

Episode: 1KHO 639: Escaping the Attention Economy | Sharon Hodde Miller, Gazing at God
Date: December 3, 2025
Host: Jenny (That Sounds Fun Network)
Guest: Sharon Hodde Miller

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Episode Overview

In this thoughtful episode, host Jenny welcomes author and pastor Sharon Hodde Miller for a second conversation, this time exploring Sharon’s new devotional Gazing at God: A 40-Day Journey to Greater Freedom from Self. Building on her previous book, Free of Me, Sharon discusses the modern epidemic of self-preoccupation exacerbated by our attention economy, social media metrics, and cultural shifts in identity and self-worth. They delve deeply into the roots of insecurity, the value of hiddenness, the downsides of the self-esteem movement, and the surprising spiritual discipline of turning our gaze away from ourselves toward God and others. This episode is an inspiring and practical conversation about reclaiming attention, purpose, and joy—especially in an age saturated with screens and self-measurement.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. *The Connection Between Free of Me and Gazing at God (00:30–04:47)

• Sharon explains how Gazing at God is a natural follow-up to Free of Me, which examined insecurity from a biblical and personal perspective.
  • “Gazing at God is very much a follow up. Like, it's sort of the things that I learned, like after I released Free of Me.” (Sharon, 01:56)

2. The Roots of Insecurity: Self-Esteem vs. Self-Preoccupation (04:47–09:19)

• Sharon shares her realization that insecurity isn’t only about low self-esteem, but often stems from excessive self-preoccupation.

  • “Our culture really only equips us to address one [cause of insecurity], and that is low self esteem... But what I realized is that there’s a second cause of insecurity … which is self preoccupation. And that is when we make things about us that are not about us." (Sharon, 07:57)

• Metaphor: Faith as a race, and the distraction of comparing oneself to others running alongside.

3. Screens, Social Media, and the Self-Esteem Movement (09:19–14:00)

• Sharon critiques the self-esteem movement: knowing you are “special” doesn’t always yield confidence, but can result in narcissism and self-absorption.
  • “The self esteem movement did not yield the generation of confident young people that it promised. And not only are people now more insecure than ever, but where they did grow was in narcissism, was in self absorption.” (Sharon, 10:31)
• Disney movies and popular culture now focus on discovering oneself, lowering the ceiling of purpose from something grand to mere self-acceptance.

4. The New Epidemic: Attention Economy & Mirror Metaphor (03:55–14:26)

• Jenny and Sharon reflect on the impact of mirrors, selfies, and the quantified self (likes, followers) in exacerbating self-focus, especially in children and teens.
  • “You have these kids who just have mirrors, you know, in some sense, whether that's mirrors or it's their phones at every turn... it's being assessed numerically.” (Jenny, 09:19)

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5. Why Do We Become Self-Preoccupied? The Role of Pain (18:48–23:50)

• Sharon introduces a compassionate perspective: self-preoccupation often arises from emotional pain, not just cultural pressures.
  • “Another reason ... is a lot more gracious, and I noticed this with people in our church... usually the reason why they are doing that is not just because of the culture that we're in, but it's also because of pain.” (Sharon, 19:43)
• Uses the sprained ankle analogy—when part of us is wounded, our attention is naturally drawn inward.

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6. Practical Steps: Self-Examination & Noticing Scripts (23:11–25:47)

• Sharon encourages identifying “scripts”—thought patterns centered on “I” and “me”—especially during depressive spirals or ambiguous social situations.
  • “There is a lot of research showing that people who are struggling with depression, they use a lot more me centered language.” (Sharon, 23:50)

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7. Healthy Self-Understanding: Receiving the ‘True Self’ (25:47–29:20)

• Sharon warns that self-denial is not the same as self-rejection—she insists on the biblical affirmation that the self is created in God’s image and meant for stewardship, not neglect.
  • “With self forgetfulness, it's not about self neglect. It's just freedom from self preoccupation.” (Sharon, 27:50)

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8. Self-Denial & Receiving Unwanted Gifts: Rejection, Hiddenness, Loneliness (29:20–34:15)

• Sharon reframes difficult experiences—rejection, obscurity, hiddenness—not as punishments but as spiritual disciplines that realign our sense of value away from ourselves.

  • “What information does this insecurity have that I need to hear? Because very often what insecurity is telling you is that you are actually standing on something insecure.” (Sharon, 31:32)

• Memorable Quote:

  • “If there is any part of you that it hurts because you had told a story that was about you and that is stripping away that story, that story needed to be stripped away anyway and that we can welcome that.” (Sharon, 33:53)

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9. The Surprising Discipline of Hiddenness (Secrecy) (39:02–45:27)

• Influenced by Dallas Willard’s The Spirit of the Disciplines, Sharon describes “hiddenness” or “secrecy” as cultivating a relationship with God independent of others’ approval—a radical act in the age of performative living.

  • “A continuing relationship with God independent of the opinions of others. … We lose touch with reality, we lose touch with our right motives, like why we should actually be doing this, which is for the Lord.” (Sharon quoting Willard, 40:46; Sharon, 41:15)

• Sharon shares personally about the temptation to post online for validation, and how choosing not to perform her pain has helped her spiritual life.

• Memorable quote (G.K. Chesterton):

  • “How much happier would you be if you only know that these people care nothing about you? … How much larger would your life be if your self care could become smaller in it?” (Jenny reading, 45:27)

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10. Attention and Worship: Looking Toward God in a Distracted World (46:13–48:13)

• Sharon recounts the story of Peter walking on water as the perfect metaphor: when we fixate on ourselves or our storms, we sink—only by looking toward Jesus are we secure.
  • “If we fixate on the storm, if we fixate on ourselves, that our feet will start to sink. And so this reminder to raise your gaze, to look at the source of your security, which is correct. Christ alone.” (Sharon, 47:02)

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11. The Role of Beauty, Creation, and Getting Outside (48:13–52:00)

• Noticing beauty, especially in nature, helps “right-size” ourselves and draws our attention away from unhealthy self-focus.
  • “Beauty, whether it’s nature or art or music, it has this transcendent quality … that directs our gaze to something higher … profoundly liberating to remember that I am not God, and the world does not revolve around me.” (Sharon, 50:07)
• Jenny and Sharon celebrate outdoor time as a path to encountering God the artist.

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12. Turning Toward Others: The Rope Ladder Out of the Pit (52:00–60:51)

• Sharon discusses the healing power of serving others and community, especially after personal loss or breakups—a practical application of loving God and others.
  • “That command to love others is actually that rope ladder out of the pit.” (Sharon, 60:51)
• The importance of validating grief and pain in young people experiencing breakups or rejection, and honoring their emotional reality.
  • “This is really hard. And it is going to be hard for a while, but it won’t be this way forever. … You’re not pathetic and you’re not weak. … It just is very, very difficult.” (Sharon, 57:24)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On insecurity & social comparison:

  • “I was looking at the people who were kind of running next to me, and I was comparing myself to them ... And if I didn't compare well ... it took all of the joy out of what I was doing.” (Sharon, 05:07)

• On the failure of the self-esteem movement:

  • “Where they did grow was in narcissism, was in self absorption.” (Sharon, 10:31)

• On receiving unwanted experiences:

  • “What if I don't post that, but I take it to him instead and wrestle with it with him in that, in that secret place and that that is the place where he purifies My motives ...” (Sharon, 43:45)

• On loving others as freedom from self:

  • “Through this journey I realized, well, that's actually how you are set free, is how your soul is, is pried off of itself, is by loving God and loving others, that God gave us these commands because he loves us.” (Sharon, 60:32)

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Timestamps for Segments

• 00:30 – How Gazing at God and Free of Me are linked
• 04:47 – Sharon's personal journey with insecurity
• 09:19 – Youth, social media, and self-preoccupation
• 14:00 – The merging of self-esteem culture and screens
• 19:28 – Emotional pain as a source of self-focus
• 23:11 – Practical tools for examining the self
• 26:45 – Receiving your true self and identity in Christ
• 29:20 – Receiving difficulty as a grace
• 39:02 – The spiritual discipline of hiddenness/secrecy
• 45:27 – Chesterton’s quote about self & happiness
• 46:13 – Worship, attention, and focus shift
• 48:13 – Beauty and getting outside
• 52:00 – Turning toward others; healing after loss or heartbreak
• 60:51 – Loving others as a path to freedom

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Conclusion

This episode is a must-listen for anyone wrestling with insecurity, digital overwhelm, or longing for richer spiritual and personal life. Sharon Hodde Miller’s insights—woven with biblical wisdom, cultural critique, and pastoral care—offer an honest pathway to healing, joy, and attention restored to what truly matters.

Recommended Reading:

• Free of Me by Sharon Hodde Miller
• Gazing at God by Sharon Hodde Miller
• The Spirit of the Disciplines by Dallas Willard

For More:
Visit 1000 Hours Outside and connect with guests for further reading, inspiration, and resources about reclaiming childhood, attention, and the joy of being outside.

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Transcript

[Sharon Hottie Miller]

When it comes to gifting, everyone on.

[Podcast Host]

Your list deserves something special.

[Sharon Hottie Miller]

Luckily, Marshall's buyers travel far and wide, hustling for great deals and amazing gifts so you don't have to.

[Podcast Host]

That means your mom gets that cashmere.

[Sharon Hottie Miller]

Sweater, your best friend, that Italian leather bag, your co workers unwrap their favorite beauty brands, and your nephews the coolest new toys. Go ahead. The price is this good. You can grab something for yourself too. Marshalls, we get the deals. You gift the good stuff.

[Podcast Host]

Shop [e-mail] or find a store near you.

[Sharon Hottie Miller]

Well, the main reason I remembered is that Cost of Control. The message of that book is just so perfect for your podcast. Like, that's why I remembered it. And so I'm glad because Gazing at God and Free of Me, like, they overlap a lot. And so I'm glad that I have not talked to you about that at all.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Okay.

[Podcast Host]

I don't even think I've read Free of Me, honestly. Actually, now that I look at the COVID I'm like, no, I haven't read that. It's got 1400 review. It has 1400 reviews.

[Sharon Hottie Miller]

It's still my best selling book. Are you looking at the. And they. They updated the COVID Yeah. Okay. It's also, like, really beautiful.

[Podcast Host]

Is that the updated cover? It's amazing how well it goes with Gazing at God.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Did they do that?

[Sharon Hottie Miller]

Yeah, we designed it that way. So the opening of Free of Me, I tell the story of Narcissus, that myth, and how, you know, he's so preoccupied with himself that he eventually dies staring at himself. And I talk about that as like a spiritual metaphor. And so that is why the front of the COVID has this river, this body of water on it, but also sort of like draws your gaze upwards towards the sky. Like, that's why the redesign covers that way.

[Podcast Host]

I love it. And I'm like, I wish I would have read it. But we could. Maybe another time we can talk about that one. Or if you come back, I'll make sure I've read that one before. 14.

[Sharon Hottie Miller]

I mean, they really, like, they go hand in hand. And so I'm happy to like, gazing at God is very much a follow up. Like, it's sort of the things that I learned, like after I released Freed Me. And so the. The message is I can mention Free of Me. Like, it makes sense to mention it.

[Podcast Host]

So. So, yeah, that's the best. Okay, well, make sure people know that those go hand in hand and that we talked about Cost of Control. I'm so glad that you brought that up like. And I looked back. We interviewed in May of 2024. So you got a lack solid.

[Sharon Hottie Miller]

You want to something like. Very sweet. So my kids go to a summer camp in Black Mountain, North Carolina. And I was picking them up and the camp director recognized me because I had been on your podcast.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, that's really sweet. And I love that so much.

[Sharon Hottie Miller]

That's so sweet. Because he's very like, you know, obviously he runs a summer camp for boys and is very much like, send your boys to camp. You know.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, I love that. Do you know what's so interesting? It's like you have that it. Life is so much about numbers these days. And you're like, you know, this many. Whatever tens of thousands of people listen to this and you just don't. You have no idea who they are. You have no idea. Some camp counselor in North Carolina. I'm glad you told me.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

That's really cool.

[Sharon Hottie Miller]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Okay.

[Podcast Host]

Well, we're. Or maybe we're in it. I might leave that little story in. I think that's really precious. So Sharon Hottie Miller is back for time number two. Last time we were talking about control and how it's so enticing, but it doesn't ultimately give you what you're hoping for. And today we're gonna be talking about a new book that you just had come out. It's a devotional. It's called Gazing at God. This is a really important topic, Sharon. A 40 day journey to greater freedom from self. Welcome back.

[Sharon Hottie Miller]

It is so good to be with you.

[Podcast Host]

This is such an important topic because we are preoccupied with ourselves, especially in this day and age. Actually, so many people have brought up recently mirrors and how the world did not used to have so many mirrors in general. Like, you just didn't see yourself so much. And now there's mirrors and there's full length mirrors and then you can selfie. Like these are all changes that are in the grand course of history. They're relatively new. And so I can become very easy to become preoccupied with ourselves. So you've got these two books that go kind of hand in hand. I love books that go hand in hand, by the way. So one of them is called Free of Me. And then this is kind of the follow up called Gazing at God. You're always really vulnerable with your own stories. Like you're. You'll be like, I was preoccupied with myself. So this is what I did. Could you give us a background? Just kind of like the lead in really to both books?

[Sharon Hottie Miller]

Yeah. So probably about 15 years ago now, I was in ministry. I was writing. Specifically, I was writing, I was traveling, I was speaking. And at the time, it was inherently meaningful to me. Like, I just really loved what I was doing. I loved serving Jesus. That was enough for me. But somewhere along the way, and the best way that I can describe it, kind of the metaphor that I use, and this is a metaphor that comes from the Bible, that faith is like a race. And at some point I realized what I was doing is I was looking at the people who were kind of running next to me, and I was comparing myself to them, or I was looking at people who are maybe like a few paces ahead of me, and I was looking for acknowledgement from them or affirmation from them. And if I didn't compare well or if I didn't get acknowledgement or affirmation, it took all of the joy out of what I was doing. And I became really fragile, I became really insecure. And I was really taken aback by this because obviously this is so embarrassing. You know, ministry is fundamentally about Jesus. And so why am I insecure about this? Why am I comparing myself to other people? And so I started out, once I realized that, okay, I'm just insecure, is I started reading books about insecurity back then. Like, logs were huge. And so reading blogs about insecurity articles, all of that. I also started reading what does the Bible say about me? Like, I thought this is like a self image problem. You know, I just need to remember what God says about me, how he loves me, how he me with purpose, all that. So I go on this journey, because I'm also a big researcher, go on this journey. I'm gonna fix this insecurity that was kind of my mentality. I'm gonna fix this. I'm gonna figure it out. And after, I don't know, six months to a year of that, I realized that it had not helped at all. It had not touched what was going on inside of me. And I think a lot of people can relate to that who wrestle with insecurity, that it's like I'm doing all the things that I'm supposed to be doing, but I'm not getting any traction with my insecurity. And so I realized that whatever was going on inside of me, it was not about self image. Like, that that wasn't the issue. That there was something else that was causing my insecurity that I needed to discover. And to make a really long story short, and I tell more of this story in free of me Is I realized that there are actually two causes of insecurity, but our culture really only equips us to address one, and that is low self esteem. And I would. I would describe that as not seeing yourself, truthfully, not seeing yourself the way that God sees you. If lies were spoken over you by your family of origin, if you were wounded in some profound way, those can absolutely affect the way that you see yourself. And the answer to that is truth. But what I realized is that there's a second cause of insecurity that we almost never talk about that our culture does not equip us to address, which is self preoccupation. And that is when we make things about us that are not about us. And when we do that, when we treat things like my ministry, my marriage, my parenting, my job, whatever it is, as if this is a referendum on my value, my success, success, my worth, whatever it is, we feel great when those things are going well. But as soon as those things take a turn, our confidence falls through the floor. And I realized for me, that was what was going on. My issue was not self image. My issue was not low self esteem. I believed everything that God said about me that that wasn't the problem. The problem was that I had taken something that was never meant to be about me. You know, you talked about mirrors. Like I was treating this thing like it was just a mirror reflecting back on me. And because I had made this thing about me, which was not about me, it made it incredibly heavy and burdensome and took all the joy out of it. And so that was the journey that led me to write Free of Me.

[Podcast Host]

I've never heard anybody talk about that. And it's so interesting, Sharon, to think about it in terms of kids and teens, because if self preoccupation is a lead into insecurity, and we have these kids who just have mirrors, you know, in some sense, whether that's mirrors or it's their phones at every turn, at every turn. And it's being. It's being monetized is the wrong word. It's being numerically how many likes and how many followers and that type of thing. It's being assessed numerically that this is probably then one of the factors of why there's so much misery.

[Sharon Hottie Miller]

Yeah, that was something that I researched in Free of Me was the self esteem movement. And I relied really heavily on. I think we talked about her last time. Gene. Twinkie. Yeah, Say her last name. So I think it's her book, Igen maybe where she writes about this. But she talks about the failure of the self esteem movement and she traces it back to, it started with boomers. Like we sort of equate it with millennials, but it goes way back before then. But the core kind of the, the guiding wisdom of the self esteem movement is that if you just know how special you are, that that will set you free. And as a person of faith, as a leader in the church, I see that as like an alternative gospel, essentially like the, the Christian gospel is that Jesus is what sets us free. And the self esteem movement would say, no, just knowing how special you are, like that's the thing that is going to make you whole. But what we have discovered is that the self esteem movement did not yield the generation of confident young people that it promised. And not only are people now more insecure than ever, but where they did grow was in narcissism, was in self absorption. And I, I have my own theory about why it ultimately failed because I think to some extent dent, the self esteem movement was putting its finger on a real problem, you know, coming out of my grandparents generation where they were basically told, children are seen and not heard. And there's no like, attention to, we don't talk about pain, we don't talk about anything hard. You know, you just buck up, that sort of a thing. I think the self esteem movement was attempting to correct that and that that is a good thing. Like I, I can agree with that. But where I think that it went off the rails was essentially giving young people too small of a purpose for their lives. And one of the ways that I actually noticed this was I'm, I'm like really into Disney. I'm a big Disney girl. And Disney movies in recent years have majored on the theme of identity. Like they're all about finding your true self. And I realized that for so long there was this storytelling device called the Hero's Journey. I'm sure you're familiar with this, this idea of a hero who sets out on this journey to accomplish a purpose that is greater than themselves. So you think about, like the Odyssey, you think about Lord of the Rings. But these days the hero's journey looks less like setting out for this, this purpose that is larger than yourself, like discovering something larger than yourself. But now the purpose of the hero's journey is to discover yourself. And to me, what that signaled was a lowering of the ceiling of purpose for our lives. And that has an impact. I think we've taken something that is good, which is understanding yourself, understanding who God made you to be that is very good. Is that what you're created for? Is that your ultimate purpose? No, it is not. And so when I think we lower that ceiling and we say that all, all you exist for is to like yourself, it's just too small. Where the human soul was just created for more than that. And, and so I think that's partially why, that's my theory anyway, about why the self esteem movement ultimately failed.

[Podcast Host]

How interesting. And then just not long after that, here comes all of these screens. And so you end up with this preoccupation, this self preoccupation that's really thought provoking, Sharon. And I think it, it informs how you parent and how you live your own life. I'm like, even in my own life, I'm like, gosh, it's a, I mean, look in the mirror less and you know, and have less looking back at me. And more like. The book is called Gazing at God.

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[Sharon Hottie Miller]

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[Podcast Host]

And you have this, I mean great analogy at the beginning of the book where you're talking about just getting regular tune ups. And I think in this day and age you probably need it a lot. You're talking about the Steinway piano. I mean it's gorgeous, right? It's over a hundred years old and you say, but it, it drifts out of tune. So can you talk about, especially when there's strong cultural forces, this concept of, you know, you like, this is the first time I've hear, heard about self preoccupation leading to insecurity. Okay, well I probably, I need to hear that often. Right? Or I need to talk to my kids about that often. Like we, we need to come around to these topics I think more often than we actually do.

[Sharon Hottie Miller]

Yeah. So part of the reason why I released Free of Me about eight years ago now, I was pregnant with my daughter when it released and she is now in second grade. So it's kind of a fun mile marker there. And I released Gazing at God as a follow up because after I wrote it I realized that I actually had more to say because one thing that I, I didn't address in Free of Me is why we struggle with self preoccupation. You know, you mentioned the culture that we are in absolutely encourages, you know, this idea of like main character energy. And you know, so many, so many people now are kind of living as if like they are the center of their own movie basically. And so we're absolutely being, especially young people are being taught they are being raised this way. But another reason that I realized for why people do struggle with self preoccupation, that is a lot more gracious. And I noticed this with people in our church. So someone in our church, for example, that I'm noticing they're running everything through this filter of self where they have someone looks at them in the wrong way at church in the morning and they're like, why are they mad at me? You know, that's automatically where they go to is why are they mad at me? Or they go to event like why didn't anyone talk to me? Everything's being run through this filter of self. And usually the reason why they are Doing that is not just because of the culture that we're in, but it's also because of pain. There's some, there's some hidden pain there. And we know this intuitively with our bodies. So if you were to sprain your ankle, you're going to give that ankle a lot of attention. You are going to go to the doctor, you're going to put it in a cast, you're going to, it's going to change the way that you walk. You're going to accommodate this ankle, and rightfully so, because it is wounded now. Once that ankle is healed, you should not be thinking about that ankle anymore. But the human soul is the same that if there is any sort of emotional pain, it's not just human sin, human brokenness, vanity, that draws our focus inward, but it's, it's also pain. And I didn't feel like I did. And I spent enough time in, free of me, really parsing that out. And so the arc of gazing at God that I think is going to really surprise people is the subtitle is about this journey of freedom from self. But the first two sections are about the self. You know, it's. It's about noticing the self and receiving the self as a gift from God. And I want to be really, really clear that what we're talking about when we talk about freedom from self, when we talk about this idea of self forgetfulness, is not self rejection, self neglect, self abandonment, that those are really unhealthy ways of talking about self denial that are actually unbiblical and theologically problematic. And so it is important to talk about what's going on inside of you, that it could be vanity, it could just be, you know, oldest sin, vain glory, whatever it is. But it could also be some sort of wound that is pulled, pulling your attention inward. And we are not going to be able to focus on God and love him and others until we address that as well. And so I want to gazing at God to be that more holistic journey.

[Podcast Host]

I mean, and you do you kick it off with. You have to really examine yourself. You have to inventory what is going on. You say we don't take the time or make the time to sit with ourselves. And isn't that the truth? And especially now because you don't ever have to sit with yourself. You can always be entertained. And we don't take the time to sit with ourselves and consider the real reason why we are fragile and insecure. We might jump to blame. And we never consider what our insecurities are telling us about our souls. So can you talk about some of the things that we should be noticing? Like you talk about scripts and assumptions that we make a narcissism. What are some things that we should be taking time to sit with to start to notice?

[Sharon Hottie Miller]

So noticing your scripts is a huge one. For me. That has been one of the big indicators that my filter has gotten off when I start using a lot of I, a lot of me, a lot of mine. And there's even. It's so fascinating. There is a lot of research showing that people who are struggling with depression, they use a lot more me centered language. And so whenever you find yourself in those space spirals of why didn't they like me, why didn't they include me, why didn't they invite me, why did they treat me that way? Whenever you are stuck in that spiral, that is usually a good indicator that your filter is askew. And so that for me is a big indicator. Another one is very similar but noticing your assumptions. So if, if there's any sort of ambiguity, for instance, I already mentioned you run into someone at church or you run into someone at your kids, school, what, whatever it is, and they interact with you in a way that doesn't make sense and it feels a little off and you don't know why. The temptation is to now fill in the blank there with something that makes sense of it. And our default is to fill in that blank with a me centered narrative. And it's always negative. You know, we, we never think, you know what, they were probably just having a bad day or maybe they were just hungry. You know, whatever it is, may, maybe they just got in a fight with their spouse, something like that. We just assume they hate me. You know, it's, it's about me and it's negative. And so noticing if that is where your brain is going, that's a really good indicator of the filter that you are using more generally.

[Podcast Host]

So there's a whole section in here about things to notice about yourself. And they're all a lot, they're tied to biblical stories and different verses. So it's really helpful. It's. The book is Gazing at God a 40 day journey to Greater Freedom from Self. See there's, there's all sorts of things you need to notice. Are you putting out a, a false self? Um, and you talk about how it can exaggerate our accomplishments to try and be impressive to other people. So after you notice yourself, then you talk about this next step which is receiving your true self. So this is about identity. This is kind of like what you were talking about earlier. You were like, you know, I kind of figured this out, you know, that my identity is in Christ and that's not leading to my self esteem issues. But you do talk about this. You are gifted message and you say, okay, you know, we tell our kids and in our culture you're special. You're like, it is true. It is true. Like everyone is made unique, but you say it's also incomplete. Can you explain that?

[Sharon Hottie Miller]

Yeah, as I mentioned, it was very important to me to include that section because a lot of teaching around self denial is really problematic and is unbiblical in the sense that it talks about the self as if the self is bad and that just isn't true. The self, for any, any person who believes, you know, the Bible is created in the image of God. And so the self is, is good in that sense. But on top of that, we also know that God is committed to redeeming and restoring the entire self, which is why Jesus came and was resurrected so that your entire self would be restored. And so we, we often treat ourselves like it's, it's bad, I just need to disappear and just focus on God. And that just isn't language that we get from the story of, of Jesus. And so I wanted to start there, but I also wanted to be really clear. Not only is that an incorrect understanding of this self, it's also just bad stewardship because everything that God put in you, the ways that you're created, the, your personality, your passions, your interests, all of that, if we just say myself is bad, I need to just minimize myself, I need to not take care of myself, neglect myself, whatever it is, that, that is all somehow deeply spiritual, that is a lie. It is just bad stewardship that you need to understand who God made you to be, the ways that you uniquely reflect him. Because everything he put in you, he expects you to take care of and to glorify him and love others. And so I wanted to make sure I was not unintentionally communicating a message that I do not believe and that is not true. And again, with self forgetfulness, it's not about self neglect. It's just freedom from self preoccupation. It's the freedom from not being obsessed with yourself. And if yourself continues to be wounded or neglected and you aren't going to have that freedom because of what I shared earlier, you're just going to be wounded and it's going to just pull your, your gaze back onto yourself. And so if you want to be committed to focusing more on God and others, you have to be equally committed to being a healthy version of yourself as well.

[Podcast Host]

So there's a whole section there about receiving your true self. And then you have this whole part about receiving, like, the things that you don't really feel like you want to receive. On the surface, it's like receive insecurity and humiliation and rejection and exclusion and loneliness and hiddenness. And hiddenness actually is a really interesting one, Sharon, in this day and age, because there's like this fight against obscurity. You know, back when I was growing up, it was like there was no path toward coming out of obscurity. Like you, you know, you lived in this random city with your family and, you know, and you had your community and that was it. Like, you're not going to really rise out of that. But today anybody has the opportunity to rise out of that, you know, with social media and things like that. So can you talk about how some of these things that seem like they would be the worst thing ever can also help us to learn and grow and, and that biblical characters went through them. Like you talked about rejection. That would be a good example that Joseph was rejected in the Bible. And, and you say, I've always found their experience of rejection especially exposing. But rejection presents us with a choice.

[Sharon Hottie Miller]

Yeah. So that section of the book, that's the really inspiring part of the book, you know, just rejection, loneliness, hidden, this mediocrity, all these things that we hate. But the reason I structured the. That section that way, so that, that is the section on self denial, is that when we think of self denial, often we think of these ascetic practices like I need to stop eating sugar or chocolate or, you know, whatever it is that I need to deny the flesh. And you know, there's a time and place for those practices that's between you and God. But I have found that life presents us readily with pleasure, plenty of opportunities to deny the self. And, and what I mean here is denying the primacy of the self, like living in such a way as if you are the center of the story. There are so many opportunities to receive that course correction when it comes. And part of the reason why I wrote it the way that I did is every single one of those things we don't receive, we reject, we tend to fight it. And insecurity, all of those in some ways are just a subcategory of insecurity to some extent. But insecurity is one in particular that when it happens, when we feel insecure. Our temptation and culture reinforces this is to make ourselves bigger, to start performing in some way, to find a way to validate ourselves, to make us feel more confident and less insecure. And what I have found is that it's helped me, instead of fighting insecurity when it comes, is to ask the question, what information does this insecurity have that I need to hear? Because very often what insecurity is telling you is that you are actually standing on something insecure. You are standing on some sense of value or worth. That is shaky ground. Whether it's your performance as a parent or as a spouse or in your job. Whatever it is that you are stuck standing on to give you security and confidence is actually sand. And the reason you feel insecure is because you are standing on something insecure. And so for me, welcoming that, that course correction that oh, hey, this, this is giving me information that I'm standing on something that isn't solid, that isn't rock. And so now this gives me an opportunity to move my feet off of that thing and stand on the stable rock of Jesus. And so all of those things that I mentioned, they are some iteration of that where it is showing you. You made yourself the center of this story. And that is why this hiddenness, it's why this rejection, it's why this loneliness hurts so much. And it's not to say that there aren't also genuine wounds in those things and God absolutely cares about those things and is so tender to us in it as well. But if there is any part of you that it hurts because you had told a story that was about you and that is stripping away that story, that story needed to be stripped away anyway and that we can welcome that.

[Podcast Host]

I love that you say there's a.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

There's a choice there.

[Podcast Host]

We can receive the rejection like a new name and deal with the betrayal and all of that, or we can receive the rejection as a new place to experience God's grace in our life. And probably similar with exclusion like the why wasn't I invited? And it's really hard. And the things today, it's like you can see it, someone posted it, you saw it, you didn't get invited. And so it's like you said, it's giving you all of these opportunities to deal with these different things.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

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[Podcast Host]

Hiddenness was a really interesting one, especially given the fact that there is ways to broadcast our lives every single day on lots of platforms and you could broadcast yourself all over the place. How can we prioritize hiddenness in today's world?

[Sharon Hottie Miller]

Yeah, there is a really. I think I included it in Gazing at God. There is a book called I Believe it Is it the Spirit of the Disciplines by Dallas Willard. I think that is correct. Where he talks about this practice, he actually calls it, I believe he calls it secrecy, the spiritual discipline of. Of secrecy. And.

[Podcast Host]

Wait, you said the Spirit of the Disciplines by philosopher Dallas Willard.

[Sharon Hottie Miller]

That. There it is.

[Podcast Host]

You got it. You got it, right?

[Sharon Hottie Miller]

Okay.

[Sponsor or Advertisement Voice]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And you. Yeah, it's the discipline of secrecy.

[Sharon Hottie Miller]

Yeah. Do you see the quote There, do you see the quote from him?

[Podcast Host]

Because he.

[Sharon Hottie Miller]

He says it better than I ever could.

[Podcast Host]

Okay. So it says, okay. In his book the the Spirit of the Disciplines, philosopher Dallas Willis, philosopher Dallas Willard lists spiritual practices for cultivating one's faith. And they are, for the most part, what you would expect. So, like prayer and fasting, study and rest. So we think of those when we think of basic Christian tenets. There is, however, one practice. This is what's so interesting about your book, Sharon. You're like, okay, everyone says this is the thing that leads to insecurity. But you're like, no, there's actually another thing no one's about talking, talking about. And so this is similar. Like, here are all these things. What are the basic Christian tenants? And everyone knows it's these different things. And you're like, well, wait, no, there's another one. No one's talking about it. There is one practice among them that is not like the other, so to speak, because it seems very unchristian at first. That discipline is a secrecy. This isn't deception. And you say Willard defines secrecy this way. A continuing relationship with God independent of the opinions of others. And that's what's interesting. I just feel like everything that we do today involves the opinion of others.

[Sharon Hottie Miller]

Yeah, I think the discipline, he calls it the discipline of secrecy. And I prefer hiddenness just because secrecy has a little bit of a negative connotation to it, of intentional deception. And I don't think that's at all what he means. But I think this is a really subversive spiritual discipline because we are in such a performative culture where, and especially with young people, they are being raised to perform their lives, and so they almost don't know who am I, or what does my life look like apart from. From performing it for the consumption of others. And when we are doing that, when we are living that way, in this performative way, we lose touch with ourselves, we lose touch with reality, but more importantly, we lose touch with our right motives, like why we should actually be doing this, which is for the Lord. And so I love this idea of. Of receiving, especially not. We don't even have to pursue hiddenness, that there are so many opportunities, but pursuing hiddenness as well, you know, making the choice. I'm not going to post this online. I'm not going to brag on myself, I'm not going to tell people about it, but just letting it be between you and God so that if there is any of that image management, if there is any of that performativeness that you can release the that and take the time to search yourself and your motives as well.

[Podcast Host]

You wrote this. And I think it's so important when we feel overlooked or unseen, we have two options. And really, you know, we have these options just in our day to day life. You know, we, we can try and make ourselves look bigger and more seen. You say we can either thrash against obscurity by trying to make ourselves bigger and more seen. You know, we can chase notoriety, we can constantly post online in order to guard our garner validation, treat our hiddenness as a problem to be fixed, or we can receive it as a gift, which in, in these days would be uncommon. But you do talk about in the Bible that many of the, I guess famous Bible characters, I don't know or the what more well known had long, long seasons of hiddenness. Moses, Joseph, Jesus and David.

[Sharon Hottie Miller]

Yeah, yeah. That there is important spiritual work that happens there. And you know, for me personally, and I realize that not everyone is super online, like I'm, I'm more online. You are more online. But I realized for me and for anyone listening who is more online, like one way that this has played out for me. And again you, you said I tend to be pretty like transparent. So this is me being very transparent. So I'm just gonna put that out there. So if I am frustrated in some way, feeling insecure in some way, feeling rejected, feeling misunderstood, mistreated, whatever it is, whatever I'm struggling with, feeling like I'm failing in some way, sometimes I will post something online as like, and I do it less now because Dallas Willard helped me to see that I was doing this. But I would post something online kind of like this general, you know, it for anyone who needs this reminder, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's really for me, like I'm saying this for myself, but I'm saying it in order to be seen. And for my pain to be seen, like that's really what it is, is I want my pain to be seen. And to some extent I also want to start experiencing some redemption in that pain by sharing it. And that's not all bad. But I've realized that I'm sort of shortchanging the process of remembering that the pain is seen by God and that no one else needs to see that pain for it to be fully seen by Him. And what if I don't post that, but I take it to him instead and wrestle with it with him in that, in that secret place and that that is the place where he purifies My motives where he reminds me that I don't have to perform, I don't have to ear, I don't have to do anything to be accepted by him, because I already am. And so that is one way that this particular discipline has changed the way that I am online.

[Podcast Host]

I love this quote that you had from G.K. chesterton. It says, how much happier would you be if you only know that these people care nothing about you? What a quote. I mean, especially in a day and age of technology, how much larger would your life be if your self care could become smaller in it? So that gift of hiddenness and the gift of even insignificance, that when we receive these things, these things that seem like we don't want them, that they really can help us grow and help us in our satisfaction of life, I think. And then the book is called Gazing at God. But you have a chapter called Turning Toward God. One of the things you talk about is attention. We belong to an attention economy. Can you talk about where our attention should be going?

[Sharon Hottie Miller]

So one of my favorite stories in the Bible that if I could point to a story in the Bible, it's like this book in a nutshell is the story of Peter walking on water. So anyone who is listening who isn't familiar with this story, Peter is one of Jesus's disciples and he is in a boat and he sees Jesus. There's a storm and he sees Jesus walking towards the the boat, on the water, in the storm. And so Peter gets very brave and he gets out of the boat and he walks towards Jesus and it's this miraculous story. However, he starts at some point to look down towards the waves. And as soon as he does, his feet begin to sink. He begins to feel afraid. He panics. But it's only when he looks back up, locks eyes with Jesus that he realizes, no, I am in fact secure. And that is what this book is about in a nutshell. That's also what worship is, in a nutshell is that we remember that the storms around us or even inside of us, that that is not the true determiner of reality. That that Jesus is, is the one who defines our security. But we do have to look to him, that if we fixate on the storm, if we fixate on ourselves, that our feet will start to sink. And so this reminder to raise your gaze, to look at the source of your security, which is correct. Christ alone. That's it in a nutshell.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Changing the focus of your attention. One of the things that you talk about looking for so this really fits well with this podcast. Is looking for beauty. Beauty is quite all over the place in. In creation.

[Sharon Hottie Miller]

Yeah. So that goes hand in hand with this idea of. Right. Sizing yourself in creation. You know, one of my. Another great story that we sort of touched on is the story of Moses. And this isn't directly about beauty, but I'm going to get there, see, in a second. So in the story of Moses, God calls Moses to go to Pharaoh and set his people free. And Moses thinks this is a terrible idea. He's. His response is one of insecurity and inadequacy. He says, I can't do this. I don't see speak. Well, you've chosen the wrong person. And most likely, Moses had a speech impediment. That's probably why he felt that way. But what's so fascinating is that God does not respond to Moses by hyping him up. You know, he doesn't say, you know, Moses, you're. You're great. Like, you. You actually. And. And the thing about it that really gets me is Moses actually probably was the best choice for this because he was raised in the palace. Like, he was groomed to be a leader. And so of all the res in Israel, he actually probably had the best one. But God doesn't say any of those things. He instead says, moses, who gave human beings their mouths, is it not I, the Lord and I really love? In her book Women of the Word, Jen Wilkin describes this as God changing the subject off of Moses's inability and onto God's ability.

[Podcast Host]

Ah, it's a reframe.

[Sharon Hottie Miller]

Yes. And I. It's this beautiful reminder that. That when you think you are too big, when you think this is all about you, that this story, your family, your job, whatever, that it all rises and falls on your own strength, that. That becomes very heavy for you. And when you think you are too big, that is actually a weight that you cannot bear. And the reason this all has to do with beauty is that beauty, whether it's nature or art or music, it has this transce quality to us that inherently makes us feel small, that calls us out of ourselves, that directs our gaze to something higher. And we. We might not even be able to articulate why, but it is something that we need. That there are bad ways to feel small, that. That, you know, Satan the accuser wants us to feel small, but they're actually really beautiful and healthy and good ways to feel small. Small, namely, which is to remember that I am not God, and the world does not revolve around me. And that is profoundly liberating to remember. And so that's, that's one of the reasons why beauty matters so much.

[Podcast Host]

And man, you can get it if you get outside for a thousand hours.

[Sharon Hottie Miller]

Exactly.

[Podcast Host]

You say, make time for beauty. Look for it throughout your day. Notice it where you can pause to savor it, delight in it, thank God for it. And remember that all beauty, no matter where you find it, is pointing ahead to the kingdom. You went to the Narrows. Yes, isn't it, it's hard to get in. Don't you have to like get some.

[Sharon Hottie Miller]

Sort of lottery system maybe Now I think when I went I was like right on the cusp of when it blew up.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, it is newer. It is definitely a newer thing. Like when you went, you didn't have to do that. My dad and my brother went and they, it was like a last minute thing that they were able to get in. And it was like remarkable.

[Sharon Hottie Miller]

It was unbelievable. It was. Anyone who can go, I mean just Utah is just like another planet. It's so beautiful. So I loved it.

[Podcast Host]

I love how you wrote God is quite clearly an artist.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Quite clearly.

[Podcast Host]

When you look at a dragonfly, you're like, are you kidding me? You'll get a sunflower. I was like, it just, it is, it's a, it's a thing that really helps you in your words. You say to raise your gaze, you feel close to God in nature and, and this really helps you to, to gaze at God and to, and to look up. Let's say one more thing. And then we turn out, you kind of talk about as you're sort of wrapping it up, turning your attention outward. And that's going to obviously help with pre. Self preoccupation and being free of yourself is starting to look out at others. And one of the things that you talk about because you say like you had this kind of like rocky decade of relationships which was maybe really only a half a decade, but you got this rocky situation, you know, you know, different relationships and, and it was a hard time for you. So now you say one of your favorite things to do is to help young people in your church navigate a breakup. But here's what I want to know. Do you ever have to help the parents? Because sometimes I'm like, I need help too. I'm like, I miss that kid that used to be coming over here all the time. It is such an interesting thing.

[Sharon Hottie Miller]

Uh huh.

[Podcast Host]

Like no one like, you know, your kid breaks up and they're heartbroken, but you're like but is anybody caring about the parents?

[Sharon Hottie Miller]

Oh, man. Yeah. I'm not. My kids are little, so my oldest is 13, so I'm like, right on the cusp of the. I know it is coming. We're still. Things are still pretty, like, emotionally low stakes right now, so I can only imagine what it is like.

[Podcast Host]

Well, it is an interesting thing because they. You get attached. So I've had to learn, like, how much are you supposed to get attached? There's a whole skill set that no one really talks about. And I guess it feels a little bit like self preoccupation because I'm like, well, what about me? But like, you, you do kind of have to walk through it. And in some ways, you have to sort of start to assess how much you attach, you know, to this beautiful little soul that's kind of joining in in your family for a period of time and. And may not always be there. So what kind of advice do you. Do you have for the. For the ones who are breaking up?

[Sharon Hottie Miller]

Oh, man. For the ones who are breaking up, who are, like, doing the breaking up.

[Podcast Host]

While they're coming in sobbing in your. In the office. Like, I mean, I think that's actually a really important thing to talk about because I talked to this man named Arthur Brooks who works with college, like, older college kids, and they're in their. Maybe mid to late 20s, and they're all looking for love. Like, he's like, everybody is, even if they say they're not. They're looking for love, but they're having trouble with their relationships, and more so now than before because technology has made things harder. And so one of the things he said is you really. And I think this is, like, ties right in with your story. He basically says you need to have four to five. You. A lot of people have four to five breakups, like, big old breakups, before they actually find their person. And he says to date like an entrepreneur and not to give up. Don't give up on love.

[Sharon Hottie Miller]

Interesting, interesting.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Keep going.

[Podcast Host]

Keep pushing through. And that's what you're helping people do.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

You're helping people actually do that.

[Podcast Host]

But he says a lot of people give up too early and they think something's wrong with them because that relationship didn't work. And he's like, no, this is like being an entrepreneur. You tried it. That one didn't work and. And move on and try again. So can you give some advice? Like when. When they come in and they're, you know, so upset.

[Sharon Hottie Miller]

So one of the things that I wish someone had told me when I was going through all those breakups. And this is the thing that has honestly shaped how I counsel young people, because we do have a lot of young people in our church who go through these, like, really devastating breakups. And I did not realize when I went through breakups how it would rock my world in a way that nothing had up to that point. Like, it devastated me emotionally. Some of these breakups did. And because, you know, it wasn't like a divorce. It was. It was a breakup. And so I, I thought, okay, I'm like, I remember I went through one breakup where I lost like 10 to 15 pounds, and I'm 5 foot 2, and so I don't have 10 to 15 pounds to lose. Like, I was not healthy. And the reason I lost so much weight is I could not eat. Like, I was so upset. I was so devastated.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Sharon Hottie Miller]

And I have another friend who, she went through a broken engagement when she was in early 20s, and she ended up going to the hospital because she was dehydrated from throwing up from, like, the grief of it. And I. But I remember when I was going through it, I remember thinking, I am so pathetic. Like, I. I'm going through this breakup and I can't just buck up. Like, everyone goes through breakups. Why. Why can't I be tough? Like, look, look how weak I am. And that shame made me feel even worse. You know, shame sort of handcuffs us from moving forward and it just paralyzes us. And in hindsight, breakups are really devastating and they are really hard. And so one of the things I say to young people, and I also actually just said this to a parent of a young adult whose adult child was going through a breakup, was just totally, like, lost his way in the world because of this breakup.

[Podcast Host]

And.

[Sharon Hottie Miller]

And I said, you need to tell him that these are actually this painful. Like, this what you are feeling is real and. And you're not pathetic and you're not weak. And so that is one of the things I actually just kind of bear witness to is it really is that awful. And it really is that hard. And there's. There's nothing wrong with you. Like, it. It just is very, very difficult. And I think some people, they have an ability to just move on, but not everyone is that way. When you thought I was going to marry this person, I thought my life was going to go this way. And now my entire future has shattered before my eyes. That's a difficult thing to process. And so to have someone tell you this is really hard. And it is going to be hard for a while, but it won't be this way forever. That's honestly what I tell a lot of young people.

[Podcast Host]

That's a really important advice because it's several things that happen. You have that shaky foundation. Where's my life going to go now? I mean, I remember thinking like, and you feel older than you actually are. Like, I remember thinking at 20, I'm. I'm done for, you know? Right. Like you're like, I've missed my window of opportunity here. It's that. And then it's also coupled with the whole way that you relate to the world and the way that you use your time changes.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

So it's like, well, you're used to.

[Podcast Host]

Checking in with that person and checking in and calling and it is this amount of hours and that's you get together with on Friday night. All of a sudden there's a massive shift in your day to day life that's constantly reminding you of the fact.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

That your whole future has shattered.

[Podcast Host]

So I found it helpful to. You have to kind of really fill your life like with other stuff.

[Sharon Hottie Miller]

Yeah, yeah. And that, and that's kind of going back to this idea of orienting yourself towards others is also your ladder out of the pit in a sense that, that if you hole up in your apartment and isolate that there is no healing there. That that isn't how we heal. That you've got to find a way to get back outside to be around people who make you laugh. And, and that was honestly one of the takeaways from this entire journey. For me that is so beautiful is that Jesus said the first and second greatest commandments were to love God and to love others. And for so long I thought, well, yeah, like that's just Christianity 101. Like that's how we be good Christians. It's how we can be good people. But through this journey I realized, well, that's actually how you are set free, is how your soul is, is pride off of itself, is by loving God and loving others, that God gave us these commands because he loves us. And that when we do these things, when we live for a purpose that is greater than ourselves, not abandoning ourselves, not neglecting ourselves, but just living for something larger than ourselves. When we pursue love of God and love of others, that that actually restores us and heals us and is for our good. And so in a situation like a breakup, that that command to love others is actually that rope ladder out of the pit.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. You say helping others also helps me. I love that the book wraps up that way, turning toward others. Because what better way is there to have freedom from self than to turning toward others? And even in your pain, even in your pain is. Is to serve others. So what a what like a one, two punch with these two books and especially in this day and age. Interesting that you wrote Free of Me eight years ago and how like this continues to be a problem, you know, and more and more so. So it's just an honor to get a chance to talk with you about them. The new book is called Gazing at God a 40 day journey to Greater Freedom from Self. It goes hand in hand with the other one. Even the covers match. It's absolutely gorgeous. Highly recommend. And I, I think would make great gifts as well. You know, a little set of books, put a little bow on the top and, and hand it out to your friends. So Sharon, what an honor to get a chance a second time. A second time? Yeah. We talked about control this time and in this one I think just same it's like letting go of control, letting go of that self preoccupation and living a better life. So thank you so much for being here.

[Sharon Hottie Miller]

I really Jenny, I so appreciate like not everyone reads the books obviously and you read them so carefully. Like I remember my last interview, like not only had you read the Cost of Control very closely, but you were also just very well read. Like those books behind you are not for show. And I just really appreciate that about you.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, thanks for saying that. I so. I so appreciate that. It's an. It's an honor and a joy for me. I love getting to talk with an author. I. I think that very few people get the opportunity. So it's a wonderful thing. And hello to the camp counselor or whatever, the head of the camp, whatever amazing camp that is. Everyone should go because people can get outside and they can see God the artist out there. So Sharon, thank you so much.

[Sharon Hottie Miller]

You're so welcome.