← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 640: Children Improve Their Attention Spans Outside | Angela Hanscom, TimberNook
00:55:32
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- [00:01]
Angela Hanscom
When it comes to gifting, everyone on.
- [00:02]
Jenny Urton
Your list deserves something special.
- [00:04]
Angela Hanscom
Luckily, Marshall's buyers travel far and wide, hustling for great deals and amazing gifts so you don't have to.
- [00:10]
Jenny Urton
That means your mom gets that cashmere sweater, your best friend, that Italian leather bag, your co workers unwrap their favorite.
- [00:17]
Angela Hanscom
Beauty brands, and your nephews the coolest new toys. Go ahead. The price is this good. You can grab something for yourself too.
- [00:24]
Jenny Urton
Marshalls, we get the deals, you gift the good stuff. Shop now@marshalls.com or find a store near you. Welcome, welcome, welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Urton, the founder of 1000 Hours Outside, and I am so honored. Do you know, I never even thought this would happen for one time ever. But Angela Hanscom is back for time number six. Welcome.
- [00:44]
Angela Hanscom
Thank you for having me.
- [00:46]
Jenny Urton
In my last conversation, I was talking about books. I talked to a mom. She had a two year old and a two year old and a six week old. And I was like, here's my list of six books or seven books that everybody young parents should read so that you really have a good sense of what you're doing. And Balance and Barefoot is always in my top three of books. It's Balanced and Barefoot, Free to learn and simplicity, parenting. If people could read those three books, it would completely change your entire just family experience. So I'm so honored. Balanced and Barefoot just changed my life. And you have this incredible program called Timber Nook. Just give us a little update of what's going on. There's new Timberlook, new Timber Nook locations that have popped up recently. Where, where are things at?
- [01:24]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah, so we just launched one in Colorado and then we also started two new schools, St Francis of Assisi School and then Seton Academy, where my son goes, which is super exciting. They've been doing field trips for Tamark for many years, so it was nice for them to have Timurduk in their backwoods.
- [01:48]
Jenny Urton
Yeah. So exciting. And there's one in Hawaii.
- [01:51]
Angela Hanscom
Oh, yes. Yep.
- [01:52]
Jenny Urton
And last year there was a new one in Jackson. So we got to meet in person at this new Timber Nook, Jackson, Michigan that started here. It's not that far from my house and with Cassie Butters. And it was just incredible. It was so cool to see and it's such an incredible opportunity for especially if you want to work alongside of having your kids there and you want to have a flexible schedule and you really want to impact your community. I think our world would change if we had one in every kid, county and then even smaller. There should be a timber nook in every county and then like every city, just smaller and smaller and smaller so that kids have these opportunities to play like how they used to. This is the biggest difference, is that kids used to have hours and hours. You talk about three hours, four hours a day where they got to play freely without adult supervision. Can you talk about the change there? You say now, now, these days. These days, kids are often sitting for up to nine hours a day. Yeah, this is not a small change. This is like a massive shift in how childhood operates.
- [02:51]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah, kids are very sedentary. As you know, they're on screens a lot. It's rare to see them playing outdoors. And so Timbernook, the whole mission behind Timbernook is to restore the authentic occupation of outdoor play and, you know, just bring it back into communities. So we have a lot of private providers that train and do this program and bring it to their communities in the form of summer camps or a night experience, even for teenagers, you know, birthday parties and force programming year round. But then we also have schools that are certifying and doing this as part of their curriculum. And what's happening here in our location where we train is we're having a huge influx in schools that want to do field trips, not just once a year, but on a monthly basis now, because they're coming to us saying we're desperate. There's a lot of behaviors in the schools. We can't meet the need. So what worked in the past is not working anymore, and we need more of this. So people are starting to see the value of this program.
- [03:53]
Jenny Urton
So if you become a provider and it's. It's a straightforward, you know, we kind of get right in touch with you. I've had people say to me, I reached out and they're like. And then I got to talk to Angela, you know, so there are. There are a lot of paths here for different types of programming and different types of schedules. I know that Cassie Butters here in Jackson, Michigan, has been so successful, so successful that she's expanded and that, you know, you know, you're kind of nervous when you start something new. Is anybody going to sign up? You know, it's been so wildly successful that she's expanded her days and things like that. And there are all of these different opportunities, like bringing in school groups. And she has talked about the impact that this is having. You could do birthday parties. I mean, there's so many different ways that you could impact your community by joining forces. And I Know, you give incredible trainings, so people are interested. I always want to throw that out there. I mean, we really need more of these because it's not happening in the neighborhoods, and this is providing so much for kids. So I would love to just talk about. It's just a reminder. People that are listening are trying to get their kids outside. They're trying to balance out screen time, but it's really hard. And the screens are getting more and more addictive and better at keeping kids on them. And the extracurriculars are really enticing. So it's. We're up against a lot. I would love to just hit some of the basics of the benefits of outdoor play, because it's really easy to forget. So I want to talk about the brain and the body, so some of the different benefits. And you are the expert here. People can read the book Balanced and barefoot. It goes all the way from ages infant through the teen years. And kids need the outdoor play for all of the different ages and stages. Can you talk about the effects of outdoor play on attention? This is a huge one because screens, there's a twofold thing happening here. Screens, I think, are affecting a child's attention and then in a negative way. And then the lack of outdoor play is also affecting attention in a negative way. So it's kind of like a double whammy.
- [05:53]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah, yeah. So just two quick things. One is, you know, years ago, I took a training called Therapeutic listening Special headphones, kind of like what you're wearing, Jenny. They look similar, but they're engineered. It's all Mozart music and classical music engineer to help with, you know, attention and balance and all that good stuff. And it was interesting because they said, when you're listening to this, these headphones make sure that child is not looking at a screen during this time because the screen will actually counteract the therapeutic effects of the music. So just something that that's always stuck with me is like screens are actually going against the therapeutic benefits. And then, you know, there's so much that plays into attention. But one quick tidbit, and I've talked about this on your podcast, but movement, you know, just plenty of spinning and circles going upside down and moving. Actually, what that does is it in the inner ear. There's fluid in there, and there's little hair cells, and we do need to move in rapid ways to stimulate those hair cells, and that develops our vestibular sense. And that sense is key to sensory integration. It lays a foundation for learning. But the really key point of this Is it turns the reticular activating system on and the brain to pay attention, basically. So.
- [07:16]
Jenny Urton
All right, one more time. Say it one more time.
- [07:18]
Angela Hanscom
So it turns the reticular. Reticular activating system on in the brain to pay attention.
- [07:25]
Jenny Urton
What is that?
- [07:26]
Angela Hanscom
So it just basically turns the brain on so they can tune in. So that's why kids are fidgeting. So, like, if they are moving back and forth, they're basically stimulating that vestibular sense so the brain can turn on. What we need to do is we need to allow kids to move throughout the day so that they can actually gain the skill of attention in the classroom environment.
- [07:49]
Jenny Urton
It's like. I just want you to say it five more times. What's so interesting about it is that the words are like. So I talked to someone the other day about myofunctional therapy, which is like the mouth, and. And they're like, it's basically just physical therapy for your tongue, you know, And I was like, if it was just called that, it wouldn't seem so weird or. Or out there, like, physical therapy for your tongue. Great. Okay. We do physical therapy for all sorts of other things. Even the phrase sensory integration. These are words that you have brought to the general public that are part of the physical therapy world, that are not part of the, you know, everyday parenting world. So you write one of the things you talk about, people can find. You've got a great video on your website. I'll link it in the show notes. But you talk about how sensory integration, that the organization of the brain is really important because that helps kids learn just flat out. So once again, if you stimulate the vestibular sense, which is basically getting your head out of an upright position so that fluid can move. Because one of the things you talk about is that kids are sitting for nine hours a day, but also a lot of the activities that they're doing when they're moving are upright. So it's not stimulating the vestibular system, but when you do stimulate the vestibular system, you turn on the reticular activating system.
- [09:11]
Angela Hanscom
Yes. Good.
- [09:13]
Jenny Urton
Which helps build attention.
- [09:16]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah.
- [09:17]
Jenny Urton
Which needs to happen. We have to build it. Also. It's being unbuilt by screens.
- [09:22]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah.
- [09:23]
Jenny Urton
Okay. Just more. I want more. Or just say it again. One more time.
- [09:28]
Angela Hanscom
Say it again. Yeah, yeah. So we do want to let them move in rapid ways, too. Like, so it's not even just like, running around because you're still kind of upright. Right. But you want them, you know, moving that head in all different planes in rapid ways. So, like merry grounds, you know, going on swings, rolling down hills. All those things are really, really therapeutic to that vestibular sense. And that, again, that sense is key. It's called the unifying sense for sensory integration. It's the most important sense for sensory integration. So to have an organized brain, we need plenty of movement opportunities. So most kids are so sedentary and so restricted in their movement that a lot of kids are walking around with an underdeveloped vestibular sense. You know, and that's. I just saw it today. I was out in the woods this morning, and, you know, some kids were running up and they fell. And, you know, this is the beginning of the Timurdic program for them. So there's a lot of falling and kids tripping. So it'll be really interesting to see at the end of the year a lot of these kids being a lot more stable on their feet and able to navigate their environment safely.
- [10:40]
Jenny Urton
Connect stable on feet to attention in the classroom.
- [10:43]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah, well, there is a connection.
- [10:45]
Jenny Urton
I think that's a connection that's missing. There would be parents that would be like, I don't care if they're stable on their feet.
- [10:50]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah, well, it is a safety issue, obviously, because if you don't know where your body is in space, you're more likely to fall off a rock or fall out of your chair in the classroom. You're not able to pay attention if your body is all over the place. So you do want to have a strong core. You want to know where your body is in space so you can tune in as well.
- [11:14]
Jenny Urton
Yeah. So this is underdeveloped brain organization. So children improve their attention span. They improve it when they play outside on a daily basis. That's huge. That's huge. Like, do you want your kid to have a better attention span? Yes. And people say attention is like. That is the main currency today. And this is something that so many are struggling with. And I think the authors that I'm talking with, Angela, are saying if your kid even just has a slight edge, they're going to really fly because every. Because so many kids are struggling. So children improve their attention span when they play outside on a daily basis. Increased movement and activity helps to stimulate and ignite the brain for sustained attention to task. So if outdoor play seems frivolous to you, there's a benefit. What about the. This is a huge one. The effect of outdoor play on social skills. Social skills are the key to the future. I mean, this is what every AI expert is Saying is that the human skills that are going to be the ones that are the most important moving forward.
- [12:15]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah. Oh, my gosh. So our whole conference this year is on the social realm of timber Duck. And so we're diving deep into the science of some of the play schemes that we see out there and how it's actually beneficial to them. For instance, we look at leadership like we had a Montessori teacher that she's been a teacher for over 35 years, trained the summer, and she said, do you know what you're doing with this program? And I'm like, what? I always want to hear what people are going to tell me. And she's like, you're forming leaders. You know, this is really the formation of leaders because they're playing with a community of different children, all different abilities, different ages, different skills. And, you know, that community of children are helping to form the individual. And you. You really do see those leadership skills being practice. And there's all different types of leadership skills. You know, there's not always the one that's front center, but there's different kinds of leadership. And today, like a really blunt example of that is we had a little boy, Jack, out there who was playing with other children and he's up against another. We'll just call him Seth. Another little boy out there who has another. Another fort going, another clan. And they are. They decide to have a battle. And, you know, Jack, before they even get released to play, he's already delegating. He's learning to delegate to his team. He's like, we're the. The story today was dragons love tacos. Have you read that book? Yeah. This is so cute. So they had, you know, stuff stage out there to inspire that kind of play. And Jack took. He takes a look every week and he turns to those that are on his team and he said, he, you're going to go get the pallets, you're going to go get some taco supplies to another child. But he's delegating what he wants them to do. And then, you know, they were off. And he. Right away there he has his team members all gathering supplies for him. And then at one point, they are having a battle battle against the other team. And he's setting boundaries with the other child. So the other child was frustrated with him. They had sticks, they're having a sword fight. And one of the children had pumpkin seeds, and he was going to throw the pumpkin seeds at him. And that was when Jack stuck. And he was like, no, I do not like that. So he had to use his voice.
- [14:37]
And say, and set those boundaries for other children. Like, I do not want this to happen. And another really interesting thing is this boy, Seth was. Why he was upset was because Jack is so effective at his leadership. He had stolen almost all of his clan, Seth's clan. So he was mad and he's like, you took all my. You took all my people. And that was what he was mad about. And Jack's like, well, they have a choice if they want to be on my team or not. And that is their choice. So, like, it was really. And then I had to leave to come for the podcast. But I want to know what is going on out there right now. But you can see the leadership.
- [15:14]
Jenny Urton
Yeah.
- [15:14]
Angela Hanscom
You can also see Seth trying to think, like, why am I losing my people to this other claim?
- [15:20]
Jenny Urton
And you can also see for Jack that if he takes all of the people, then it's not fun anymore.
- [15:26]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah, yeah, right, right.
- [15:28]
Jenny Urton
Like, like, you know, you don't really want to have a monopoly. People talk about that like they. They think they want to have a monopoly. You think you want to have the only cell phone company that exists or the only. And then you're like, no, those actually don't go well.
- [15:39]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah.
- [15:40]
Jenny Urton
Because then there's no competition. If you're like me, sometimes you look back and think, why didn't I learn that earlier? Like, why was I conjugating German verbs instead of learning how to balance a checkbook? Why did I scrape my way through college wishing I'd bought Bitcoin at less than a cent? Or honestly, why didn't someone teach me the pure joy of baking homemade? We might just be the FOMO generation, but here's one thing you don't want to miss out on. Protecting your future. And the good news, for around the same price per month as one of your streaming services, you can break that generational cycle and actually secure your family's future with life insurance. From selectquote.com here's why I love them. Select Quote takes the guesswork out of everything. You don't have to compare dozens of confusing policies. One of their licensed agents will do it for you for free, matching it with a policy that fits your health, your lifestyle, and your budget. You and you can get covered faster than you think. Some providers even offer same day coverage up to $2 million with no medical exam required. Life insurance is never cheaper than it is today. Get the right life insurance for you for less and save more than 50%@SelectQuote.com 1000 hours. Save more than 50% on term life insurance@SelectQuote.com 1000 hours today to get started. That's SelectQuote.com 1000 hours.
- [16:50]
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- [17:59]
I read a book recently. I'm not sure if you read it or not. It's called it's okay not to Share. Yes, Other Renegade Rules for Raising Competent and Compassionate Kids. And I, this is the first time I've read this one. And the, the depth in which she goes into being able to decide for yourself and, and having your boundaries and also listening to the boundaries of other people are so wildly beneficial. And I talked to this man recently named Dr. Bruce Perry, who works with kids in trauma, and he was saying how as a therapist, if a child comes in and they do not have those baseline social skills, he said, you can't really teach them. You cannot really teach. How many seconds are you supposed to look them in the eye and then look away? He said he was trying to do it with this younger child, elementary school age. And the kid says, well, how many seconds am I supposed to look? And he was like, I don't know, three. And then he's like, the kid, when he looked away, he would look up. And then Dr. Bruce Perry was like, well, you don't really look up. When you look away, you kind of look to the side. The nuance there is so great. And in a world where we're struggling with loneliness. And also I read, I talked to this man earlier this morning, a book about Gen Z. He said that there are Gen Z and these are our kids. Right? Like, kids right now will have 11 jobs in their 20s. 11.
- [19:16]
Angela Hanscom
Wow.
- [19:17]
Jenny Urton
Social skills are so unbelievably important in work in general, but if you're having to bop, he said, like from lily pad to lily pad. He said, for. For generations, it was the corporate ladder. Now it's the corporate lily pad. You're jumping from place to place. You have to know how to get along with others. Can you talk about why play, and especially play in nature is. I mean, I would say it's probably the optimal place to learn those things.
- [19:44]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah, I think it's. You have to experience it firsthand, you know, and test out your theories. Like, which is what they were doing out there, right? They're saying, okay, this worked. Okay, that was not effective to throw pumpkin seeds. What can I do next time? I have another really great example that I often will say to groups. And it was just a perfect example of how often to the adults get in the way of this. I think the hardest part of all of this is training of the adults so the children will naturally learn through time and exposure to play, how to socially interact with each other and navigate their social worlds. And it gets messy. And that's the other thing. Like, sometimes play can be. It can get a little messy and it can make the adults feel uncomfortable. And so that's when we go in too soon. And an example of this is we had a group of girls, like, building a fort, a teepee, basically. And they. A little boy went up to them and said, you need to let me play very loudly. And you know, right away, like, we were training at the time, so you want. You don't want fights to break out in the woods. So, you know, one of the adults wanted to go in, and I'm like, something told me to, like, let's just wait. And what they did was they formed a chain and held hands, like the girls, to defend their fort. And they're like, no, no, no, you know, like, we won't let you in or whatever. Well, he was really mad. And so he stole their gems that they were hiding in their 40s and took off running. And so the girls start chasing him around the woods over and over again. And, you know, one of the adults was like, well, he's bound to get tired, like something's going to happen. Because they were running for a while in the woods. And finally he did. He got. He got tired and he's like, fine, just take the gems and gave it back to the girls. And what happened was the girls went back to their fort and, you know, fixed it because I think he also had scissors. So that was. Everyone was like, oh, my gosh. But, you know, he ended up cutting a piece of twine of decoration on their thing to get to the. To the gems. So they re like fix their four and they're happy. He went over to a tree and crossed his arms, and he was clearly, like, upset. Like, he was, you know, sulking. And what was interesting is one of those little girls went over and sat down beside him after a short period of time, and we couldn't hear what was happening. Again, we tried to respect their play space and not, you know, interfere, but we could hear the noise level. And all of a sudden, she calmly was talking to him and his voice raised and he's like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so she put her hand up, like, talk to the hand type thing, and then waited for him to regulate. And then he. But his voice went up again and he's like, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so she again put her hand up and waited for him to regulate and then had a conversation with him. And his voice actually came down and he was able to talk with her. All we saw is that she waved him on to play. And for the rest of that week, this was a week of summer camp. He was invited to play with them, and it was no longer an issue that needed adult interference at all. But if we had gone in and said, you need to let him play. I often ask people what opportunities would they have missed out on, what learning opportunities. To me, it's authentic. First of all, it's authentic inclusion. You know, they. And like we said, you have to let him play. They could have resented him, and he could have resented them, and it could have been an ongoing issue needing adult interaction. But because they solved their own problem, it was no longer an issue. And they felt capable, like we. We solved this problem all by yourself and independently. So they had conflict resolution, which is best done through play. And so he also learned probably that, you know, yelling May wasn't the best way to be included.
- [23:45]
He was allowed to get angry. Like, she listened to him, you know, she showed empathy. She was able to walk him through, like, some advanced communication techniques, you know, and walked him through the situation. And again, you have to experience empathy. You can't be like, just role playing this or talking to an adult. You have to experience this with other children and. And play is real for them. It's serious. And that's how they're learning. That's how they're learning to solve their own problem. So when they're arguing like that, we won't go in because that's their opportunity to get through it and to solve problems. The only time we would go in is if things get unsafe or they're trying to harm one another or name calling. But other than that, like, you know, we want that to happen.
- [24:33]
Jenny Urton
When I was in the Jackson one, it was like everyone was getting out their bug sprays and was about to go have at it.
- [24:38]
Angela Hanscom
You're like, yeah, right.
- [24:42]
To do the.
- [24:42]
Jenny Urton
Play in their eye. But other than that, you're. You're on the periphery. What an interesting example. First of all, I think it shows that we don't, as a society, we don't really trust kids. Obviously there's. There was a child that was empathetic enough to see that this child is upset and she's going to insert herself. No one had to tell her to do it. That's huge. You know, it was interesting reading that Heather Schumacher book. It's okay not to share. And it might be Shoemaker.
- [25:12]
Angela Hanscom
Shoemaker. Yeah, you got it. All right.
- [25:13]
Jenny Urton
It's Heather Shoemaker. Okay, good. All right, there we go. Now I know because I am going to be talking to her soon, and I won't. Thank you. So, Heather Shoemaker, and she was talking about how, like, as adults, I've never thought about this. If I. Let's say I'm with a. With a small group of friends, three or four, you know, friends, and of, you know, of my own choosing. And when someone else walks up to the circle, it takes a minute. It changes the whole vibe. It takes a minute to figure out how to integrate that extra person. Or if, you know, if you're playing a board game with three other people and someone else comes up and says, I want to play, you're jolted out of what you were doing. And sometimes that person may not seamlessly fit. And so, I mean, it's really interesting to think about how much we control and how if we really were to take a step back and, you know, we're not forced to play with certain people.
- [26:01]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah.
- [26:02]
Jenny Urton
I mean, occasionally in a work environment, you might be, but for the most part, like, you know, we seek out and we are. We can be Disrupted from our. Our flow, our state of enjoyment. So it really gives you a lot to think about in terms of, like you said, the adult. The adult involvement. Because in the 1960s, no one is getting involved with the kid who's stealing gems.
- [26:24]
Angela Hanscom
Right.
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Jenny Urton
Like, they're just running around the neighborhood doing their thing, and the adults are not involved at all. You said in your. One of the videos on your Timbernook site, if we keep them from moving in these rapid ways, like you were talking about earlier, we become the barrier to neurological development that needs to happen so they can become safer in their environment. And this is similar. It's like we become the barrier to social development.
- [26:50]
Angela Hanscom
Yes. Yeah. And it's interesting because here we are doing social skill groups. So speech therapists and occupational therapists will often do small groups where it's an adult and all the children that struggle with social skills and together to work on social skills. And it, like you said, it's kind of like role playing or it's. It's very limited. And I. I think we gotta be careful about that. Like, I do think there might be a role for that, but I do think this authentic play with true neighborhood play, where there's many children to choose from and many children of different abilities, is more real world. And so you're going to see more change in the social skills as well. And I have actually been asked numerous times, because I'm an occupational therapist, do you ever do camps for children with special needs?
- [27:41]
I would never take all the children that struggled with one particular thing and form a group because, again, it's not real world for me. I would rather have those children mainstreamed into the program, treated like every other child, and allow the program and the environment to help shape them. So children with more advanced play skills will be modeling for them. More advanced social skills are the model.
- [28:04]
Jenny Urton
Wow. I like this phraseology to act like a lifeguard. I think that that is really helpful for the parent that is struggling. I think the. The image of a lifeguard I lifeguarded, as a lifeguard, you're not involved in anything except for when someone is going under and you gotta blow your whistle and jump in. In fact, you're told to not even engage with anybody. I mean, people constantly come up and try and talk to you, and you're really not even supposed to engage because you're supposed to be constantly. You're. And that's it. You're not engaging with the play. You're not engaging with the kid that's jumping off the diving board. You are there for a life saving moment. And that is all. And you talk about how if you treat it in that way that the kids start turning to each other like how they would have in years past.
- [28:48]
Angela Hanscom
Yes. Yeah. We actually have phrase, like a list of phrases that we'll say when we train people of what you can say when a child comes up to you. But for the most part you might not say anything. You might shrug or you might give them a thumbs up. And the reason for that is because kids are so used to being entertained and so sometimes that is the first thing they have to overcome before they start playing is like the adults are not here to entertain me. I'm here to entertain myself, come up with my own play ideas and use those executive functioning skills, those higher level thinking skills. And that's hard. And so they're going to keep coming up to you for a little bit and then you just be as boring as possible. And they will, they will eventually get bored and find something to do.
- [29:37]
Jenny Urton
So you're reducing adult presence and the kids will come up for a reassurance. Is this okay? Can you tie this for me? Can you help this, help me with this? And it's so interesting to think about how if you do this as, you know, a group of parents, people would really get a lot out of watching your videos. Because first of all, if you want to become a timber nook provider, you're like, oh, these, these providers are sitting on these little, you know, cushioned pads 20fe back, you know, just kind of observing like how a lifeguard would. That's what they're doing. It's not a heavy lift. And parenting and teaching and coaching, it like feels like such a heavy lift. I was just talking to a woman, she was like, the cultural message is that children are a burden and are like, no. If you look at Angela's video, you would see that actually you can chill out a little bit. You can bring your cushion cushion and you can sit in the pine needles in the beauty of nature and you can possibly have a conversation with a friend, you know, and, and know, just kind of observe what's going on and step in if they're going to spray each other in the eye with their bug spray. Otherwise it's so good for them to be feeling this out on their own. So to see in practice is, is really powerful and you can see how then the kids, they benefit from that so greatly. So we're talking about the effects of outdoor play on attention. Huge. Especially in a day and age of screens. The Effective outdoor play on social skills. Also huge in the day and age of screens and AI. How about the effect of outdoor play on emotional stability? Also huge in the day of screens.
- [31:15]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah. It's funny because there's been a huge rise in referrals for occupational therapy for emotional regulation. Like a huge rise. And I'm hearing for, from occupational therapists, they're like, we can't, it's hard to work on that specific skill in a clinic setting or one on one with a therapist and a child. Like, do you purposely frustrate the child and see how they regulate? Whereas in play, again, it's real for them. It's a real environment. Play is serious. They take it very seriously. And they're going to have to regulate emotions frequently throughout the day. There's going to be ebbs and throat.
- [32:01]
Ebbs and I can't even talk.
- [32:05]
Yeah. And so they're gonna, they're gonna have to regulate it and deal with it. And that's how you work on it is being immersed in that type of experience. For instance, like, you know, they had that taco party and someone took all the cheese, you know, and so they probably, you know, some, some kid might be like upset with that or they learn like, okay, well, I'm not always gonna get what I want. That's another thing is like, like this sense of entitlement where kids are like, I need one string cheese, I need one taco shell. I need like that whole sense of every child gets the same thing goes out the window at Timber Nook. Like that. That just doesn't happen. You know, they learned that they aren't entitled to the rope swing for five minutes. Like you have to be more mentally flexible with other people's ideas. Yeah. You know, you have to go with the flow. And those are all life skills that we, we really want children to have of.
- [33:01]
Jenny Urton
Well, you gave the example of the child that stole all the gems and then got tired and then went and he sulked by the tree and realized that in time and in community with another peer that he could emotionally regulate and regulate and then join in with the other kids. You talk about how spending time in nature lowers cortisol levels in the brain. Just that. Just that right there. In this day and age where kids are outside for four to seven minutes and. And parents are stressed too. Are you kidding me? Talk about cortisol level. They're up for all of us. So if you want to lower cortisol levels in the brain, you go outside. It promotes calmness and improved mood. There's one more that's really big, I think, in this day and age as well, which is creativity.
- [33:44]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah. Yeah.
- [33:47]
Jenny Urton
Can you talk about the effects of outdoor play and creativity?
- [33:50]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah, I mean, that goes back to that. It's being okay with being bored, you know, and, like, it takes. It does take more time than people realize for a child to be bored. And then they sit and they start experimenting with items. Like, they might pick up a stick and start digging with it and realize, oh, I can use this to dig with. And then they start writing with it, and they realize, oh, I have to afford play affordances. I can write with this. They might see another child building with sticks and be like, oh, I have three ideas now. I can build with sticks, I can write, and I can, you know, so over time and being exposed to other children playing with those materials in different ways, that's how we get creative play. And so, you know, after doing timber, this is 15 years now, but in the beginning, I remember as it first started evolving, I was like, wow, children, like, they're. They keep getting more and more creative. And it was because those children that had done timbernook came back, and they became the models of creative play for the other children. And they got more and more advanced as the years went on. And it got. And I was like, I don't think they'll ever get more creative. And I do just. They just keep proving me wrong because there's endless opportunities for play, and so it does take time and exposure to those types of situations.
- [35:08]
Jenny Urton
And in a world where the job market is rapidly changing, creativity is a huge skill and one that is easily lost and is really proven to be lost. You know, they have those studies about that they, you know, NASA did when the kids are five, they're all pretty much all creative geniuses. By the time they're 30, it's like 3%. You know, it's really dropped and drops throughout childhood. I mean, you know, by the time they're these young ages, so the creativity and especially in a world with AI matters a lot. And so all of this play, it helps to foster that. You have feedback from kids. I mean, I'm sure for 15 years, you have so much feedback from kids. Also from your own daughter. Joelle came on our podcast and talked about her experiences of running through the wood. So people can go back. I'll link it. People can listen to that one about how much she got out of it and how bummed she was when she aged. Out. Out.
- [35:55]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah.
- [35:56]
Jenny Urton
You know.
- [35:56]
Angela Hanscom
Yes.
- [35:57]
Jenny Urton
And what a great Thing to be bum. Like you liked it so much when you aged out and then she, you know, ends up being a, almost like a counselor I guess, you know, where she's in more of a grown up role but, but how much she loved it. And so kids will say things like there's no boundaries here and there are boundaries. That's what's so interesting to me is that there are boundaries. Like when, when I came to the Timber Nook location in Jackson, there were boundaries. It was like you need to be able to be within eyesight of an adult. And most parents would have boundaries. There's like those cool watches. Like Cosmo has this watch that is a kid smart watch. And you can put in boundaries. Like you can go within two to three blocks, otherwise it will alert me that you've gone outside the boundary. And I'm like, for parents that are, you know, just dipping their toe in the water and you know, really wanting to start to give their kids a little bit more freedom, you could set up things like that. That's how it used to be. I think that my, you know, parents are like, you can go up until this, you know, this road, old bridge, they don't have the one where you're going to, you know, you can go to this neighborhood, you can't go six miles away. Okay. But you've got a mile range or 2 mile range. But what's interesting is that even if there are boundaries, if kids have some freedom, it feels to them like there's no boundaries.
- [37:10]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah. Oh definitely. And they all say that often is like I feel free. I've heard that so many times. I feel free out here. And they're like you mentioned earlier, they're more capable than we realize. And so when we do give them that freedom and that opportunity to just be, that's when all the good stuff happens. They're learning to do, test, test different things. They're learning to test the social piece. They're learning to task their own abilities. They're going outer the, out of their comfort zone, which is what we want. Right. We as people, as if we want to grow as individuals and we want to learn something new. This is kind of entrepreneur alike. But if we want, we need to, to test the boundaries and go out of our comfort zone.
- [37:56]
Jenny Urton
Yeah. So I love that they, they have this sense that there's no boundaries. It just goes to show you that you don't have to offer them the world. They just have to have enough time and space to roam a bit, to give them a sense of a large sense of freedom. The one little girl that I listened to, it was on a video on your website. She says here there are no boundaries. Like in school you're only outside for 20 minutes a day. I'm not the biggest fan of that because I like being outside. And they talk about all the things, they totally get that outside is where you can build a fort. Outside is where you can climb a tree. And you cannot do those things the kids were saying over and over again, you can't do that in a classroom. And understanding the value of the outdoors in childhood. I love how this can really affect parenting. You've done such an amazing job of bridging that gap between what you've seen in physical therapy for children and what a parent can do in a day to day. Can you talk about. Obviously you could be a parent and you could become a Timber Nook provider. So that's an option. It's a great option. People are thrilled with it. So if you're, if that's something you're looking for. We just hired a woman that I adore, actually been friends with and known since childhood. Just a couple hours a week, you know, she's helping with some different things, things. And it's just a wonderful thing. But a lot of people are looking for, you know, they're looking for something that's not full time, you know, something that really can impact for generations. So that would impact you a lot, I think, to see that on a regular basis. But I would imagine even parents that are sending their children to Timber Nook programs, they probably start to learn to trust a little bit more, trust their kids. Can you talk about the impact in general of free play on parenting?
- [39:44]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah. So it's interesting because we've had some providers that just trained. We grew by 25% this year. It's incredible. We had a lot of people train this summer, in this past spring. And one that was a physical therapist, he's got his PhD. You know, he's very knowledgeable and he was like, timbernook training changed my parenting. He's like, I am able to let go of a lot more than I used to. Like, you know, allowing kids to have choice in their play is really key for him and not feeling like he has to micromanage them. He really said it changed his parenting. And I know that we've had a lot of instructors throughout the year say same thing. Like it's, it's not just when people train. It doesn't just affect your program and what you do for other children, but your own children. And you see them through a different lens. And you see. What's really interesting is you see their strengths out there, but you also see the areas where they. Where they have some need for growth as well. And so it's. It's very. For me, almost like an assessment when I. When I do a tumor to program in schools. Same thing. When they come for a field trip, the teachers are often seeing their students through a different lens, and they're like, you can see your leaders come forward. You can see the kids that are still falling along. You see where they need growth, but, like, the environment is doing it for them. They don't have to micromanage it. You know, they just see that they need more of it. And so it's very freeing, I think, for the adults to realize, oh, I can let go. I don't have to be in the center of their play. And I see it again a lot with field trips, I think, because it's so novel. And when they come out, they're like, it's so unconventional when we have a field trip, and the teachers are used to directing and managing the children. And so the first thing I do at a field trip is I go find the adults that have never been there, and I'm. I go and I sit with them and I say, let's look at what we're at the play right now.
- [41:44]
Jenny Urton
Here's your cushion.
- [41:45]
Angela Hanscom
Here's your cushion. Here's your cushy. So. And just. Yeah, that. Permission to step back and just analyze the play for. For its therapeutic value, for its educational value, and look at the richness of what is happening in the woods. And then they can look at individual children. They're like, oh, my gosh, I've never seen that child do that before. Oh, my gosh, that child has trouble with attention in the classroom. About here, it's no longer an issue because it's meaningful to them. So all these things that we might see as issues in the classroom are different in the woods because they have purpose out there. And so to me, it's a lab. It's a lab where they're learning everything, but it's a lab for the teachers and for the providers of how capable children are and also where they need to work on different things. Like, we've had occupational therapists that worked at Gene Ayers clinic where that's the person that brought sensory integration to the forefront come out and really have to let go of their ideas. And like, they wanted to create an obstacle course for the kids, I'm like, no, no, no, you don't do that. Intuitive. Like they create their own obstacle course. It's their opportunity, it's their woods. And so very humbling. But it's like, no, I need you to step back and we're going to empower the kids to do. And so there is a lot of relearning. It's. It sounds like a very easy concept, but it's actually, when you dive into it, it's, it's quite, it's beautiful. It's complex when you analyze it, but it. There is a lot of retraining and letting go of fear, letting go of control. Yeah. And then that training of knowing when to go in, when you can't tune out you. Because things can shift quick. When do you go in all of that stuff.
- [43:32]
Jenny Urton
It is fascinating. I want to read you this. Hold on. Okay. I interviewed this man earlier this morning who wrote a book about Gen Z, and he was telling me about this Rent a Mom program for college students. It is a concierge organization offering a second mom service for college freshman. Students can have their bed made, their laundry done, their room tidied up, and even be picked up in a car. And you know, I think when we talk about these things and our kids seem so young and you and I are in similar stages of parenting where, you know, we're launching adult kids, that piece of learning how to let go is one that you have to learn because you're letting go of bigger and bigger things as you go along. So I love that you talk about the analyzing the, the fascination, the beauty, the wonder that happens when you take a step back and you observe when you act like, like a lifeguard. The things that you learn through that as a parent, as an adult will really behoove you as your kids get older. You're really gonna need it. I was just talking earlier to, to someone else about. So yesterday we had some friends over and I've got a dear mom friend who's got five, five kids like we do, three girls and two boys and her oldest, you know, they're maybe like five or six years behind us. So she's got a one year old, 13 months. Thirteen months. Angie, she's 13 months, you know, like walking, but like 13 months is little. And the older sister, the next oldest sister, just turned five. So five and one and the five year old and they're just, they're so small, like they're so young. Just turned 5. So the 5 year old would pick up the 13 month old, old even that you're like, okay, she's carrying the baby around. And in one of the rooms in our house we just have a trampoline, a small one. You know, the kids can jump around if they, what if they want to. So we're indoors, but there's a, it's a little trampoline. It's basically the size, well now I know of a 13 month old because the 5 year old picked up the 13 month old, stepped onto this trampoline, laid the 13 month old down. So this, this trampoline is basically the length of this, of this one year old and put her legs on either side of the 13 month old and started to jump, jump.
- [45:43]
You know, and you're like, this is kids 4 and 5 for this family. So that mom has obviously learned how to let go. And you could see how so many adults would be like what in the heck are you doing? You are bouncing that 13 month old around. What if she falls off? What if you step on her? Like so many different things. And yet they were having the time of their life that that little one year old was laughing and like exuberant. They were both exuberant. And then the 5 year old would pick her up and take her off and then bring her back and over again. And what I thought is that if as a parent you can trust your children at ages 5 and 13 months, if the 13 month old hated it, she would have let people know they're smart, they know how to communicate, that, that skill. You're going to need it all the way through, you're going to need it when they start to drive, you're going to need it when they start to date, you're going to need it when they go off to college, you're going to need it when they graduate, you're going to need it when they get married, you're going to need it when they're become parents themselves. And so, so often we focus on what the kid is missing. Obviously the kid is missing quite a bit. If we're blocking their neurological development and their emotional development and their social development, they're missing but we are missing too. And I think that's one of the pieces that doesn't get talked about enough.
- [46:58]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah, I think it goes to identity for the child too. So if they're so controlled and so protected, they never learn who they truly are, are and what they're truly capable of. And so that, that's something that like is formed through childhood but like it's still being formed in adolescence. And if you're so it's like giving your opinion all the time and not letting go. They can't do that internal piece of. Figure out who they are, setting boundaries, all that stuff you're learning through play.
- [47:29]
Jenny Urton
Yeah, it's a, this is a long lasting thing. So it's real important. It's real important to know about. It's important to make changes. Even if you feel like you're too late, you're not too late. I talked to this man, he was like, look, you know, if you haven't read to kids and they're older, like start now, just start now. Wherever you're at, start now. Have fun with it. You do a lot of research studies, which I think is really incredible and very important. Part of the reason why this is a missing piece of information is because no one needed to know it before because this was the natural part of childhood. Kids played in the neighborhood without adult supervision. Dr. Peter Gray walked to the store at age 4, several blocks away to get cigarettes for his grandmother. So, you know, things have really changed. No one's letting their 4 year old walk anywhere anymore more, let alone their 11 year old. So can you talk about the incredible research you're doing with the University of New Hampshire? Is that right?
- [48:15]
Angela Hanscom
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So we just got the results back and actually we have a new website coming out by the end of October and so those that research results will be posted on there so that people can take a look. But basically we researched, I think it was six or seven of our Timbernook schools and what happens when Timbernick goes into a school and how it's affecting the culture of the, the school. And the results were really positive, really, really exciting. And it looked at all different aspects of perceptions of the parents in their perceptions of Timbernook and the value of it for their children, perceptions of the teachers and their observations of how it has affected learning in the classroom. There was one really interesting takeaway that I didn't even think of and one of the findings was that that more risk taking out in Timber Nook through play actually helped translate to more risk taking academically as well, which was. I, I never even thought of that one. But that was a really cool finding. There's a bunch of them, so I can't wait to share that.
- [49:25]
Jenny Urton
What does risk taking academically look like?
- [49:28]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah, so I think taking risks with, you know, it could be just basic, like coming up with ideas for an essay, say and like doing something out of your comfort zone. But yeah, they saw more of that I'm hearing the opposite is happening where kids are going to college and they, they can't. They're struggling with open ended questions. Right. Or doing things for themselves or taking any risk. They want to stay in their comfort zone. It's scary. There's a lot of anxiety. So they, they tend to not go out and do things with other people. This is opposite. So their, their kids at Timberland. Timbernook. We just went last week actually. We had a training and we went to Laconia Christian Academy to see that. How they're, it's unreal. It's an incredible school. They have extended it even further. They now have two and a half hour time blocks for Timbernook.
- [50:16]
Jenny Urton
What I talked to is her Kelsey, Kenzie.
- [50:20]
Angela Hanscom
Kenzie.
- [50:20]
Jenny Urton
Kenzie. I'm so bad. Look at. I'm calling. Okay. I talked to Kenzie. I talked. Kenzie's been on the podcast.
- [50:27]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah.
- [50:27]
Jenny Urton
I remember her talking about how the, some of the days when they happen have their Timber Nook time. Plus they also have an hour recess. It's half the day.
- [50:36]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah.
- [50:36]
Jenny Urton
They've made it even longer.
- [50:37]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah, yeah. So they extend even an extra half an hour. They are really taking risks out there. I mean they're like climbing trees, climbing falling trees. They're you know, you know, doing all sorts of social risk taking, messy play. And so again like that's leading to more risk taking in the classroom, which is interesting.
- [51:02]
Jenny Urton
I would be curious to know how that affects teacher retention.
- [51:06]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah.
- [51:07]
Jenny Urton
Because it's so hard, I think that it's hard to be a teacher. It's so hard. It's so hard to be a teacher. And it was interesting when I got a chance to talk with Kenzie and she talked about. I actually assumed that the teachers would not be out there with the kids. That was my assumption. They're probably using that as time to catch up on all these other things that they need to catch up on.
- [51:24]
Angela Hanscom
On.
- [51:24]
Jenny Urton
And when Kenzie told me that they spend their time out there, I thought, gosh, what an interesting thing. Like what if part of your life was that as an adult you got to spend 10 hours a week or 6 hours a week outside in the woods with a bunch of kids.
- [51:37]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah.
- [51:37]
Jenny Urton
Like, how cool is that? You know? And you're not having to break up fights. You're sitting on your, your cushion. But you're, but you're also like, there are so many things as an adult that you're like, well, gosh, I'm sure, I'm sure they have a thousand emails that they could respond to, to and papers degrade. And yet this is integrated into their life as well as a place to slow down, as a place to experience the elements, as a place to see these kids in a different environment, in a different light, you know, where different strengths and weaknesses show up and you really get to know the kids better. And what a thing that they have increased the time even more.
- [52:13]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah, yeah, that and actually I think that is part of the results that you. That I'm. I'm pretty sure that that was. Was. It was teacher satisfaction, I think. And so it was very positive. Everything came back super positive. And I think, I mean I'm. This is just my theory, but I think that part of the reason why there's so much joy with this and satisfaction is you know that you're giving children what they need. So you are giving like it's such a gift to be able to do timber nut. And when you're out there, you're giving them exactly what they need. You're giving them the time, the space and the permission and the opportunity to do so. And so that to me is like, that's joy giving to not only the children, but to the adults that are watching.
- [53:04]
Jenny Urton
Timbernook has all your answers. I've had people email from different schools and often, you know, often private schools because they feel like they can, they do have a say and they maybe have a little bit more of a say say than they might in a public school setting. And they'll say, our kids only get this amount of research recess. What can we do? Like, well, give them your book and let them know that you have taken this into a school setting and it. And made it work.
- [53:27]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah.
- [53:27]
Jenny Urton
And it is a win. Win. It's certainly a win for the parents who now have kids who are more creative and can deal with their boredom. It is a win for the teachers. It's in a win for the administration. And most importantly, it is a win for the children who deserve a child who. And you are helping provide that for them. I want to read this. You say our Timber Nook beliefs. Outdoor play is inherently therapeutic. Children require time and space to move their bodies. Nature provides the ultimate sensory experience. Children deserve distance from the adult world. Regularly, ample outdoor play benefits children physically, mentally and emotionally and socially.
- [54:05]
Angela Hanscom
Yeah.
- [54:05]
Jenny Urton
And spiritually.
- [54:07]
Angela Hanscom
Yes.
- [54:08]
Jenny Urton
It's all the things so what an I can't even six times plus we've gotten to hang out in person. I adore you. I'm so thankful for your influence in my own life and I know that it just continues to ripple outward. There are so many ways that people can get involved in Timber Nook. Even if you just hop on over to the site and watch, there's like a video on there that's seven or eight minutes that's really explanatory. You see the cushions that the adults are sitting on and you can kind of see it in person, just. And you can hear the kids in their responses about how thankful they are for the freedom you can become a Timber Nook provider. This is growing.25% growth in the last year and it's a 15 year history. So you're joining in with an organization that is really impacting kids for generations. And also you could bring it to your school and what a thing. I mean, I even think that, you know, then people come to Laconia. Mackenzie would have never known. Now people are going to come and see what she's doing and they're taking it to their school. So, so many incredible ways that people can intersect with what Timbernook is doing. Thank you as always for your time and for all of the encouragement you're putting out in the world for parents and educators to do it differently.
- [55:14]
Angela Hanscom
Thank you so much, Jenny.