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The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 641: Movement Opens Up a Whole Other World to Children | Misty Copeland, BunHeads
00:53:00
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Sprite.
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Obey your thirst.
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Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Urch. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside, and I am Sprinkle. So excited. I mean, potentially the most accomplished guest we have ever had on the podcast. Misty Copeland, welcome. Oh, thank you.
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I'm so excited to be here.
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A
Oh. Misty Copeland is like the ballerina that everybody knows about. In fact, we've got some ballerinas in our life that we love, and we're here in Michigan, and they are about to do their Nutcracker performance at the Brighton School of Ballet. And we love to go every year. And I had the honor of reading your story. It's called Life in Motion and Unlikely Ballerina. And also your kids books. You have these wonderful kids books. And when we're heading into the holidays, I'm like, books are the best gifts ever. You've got Firebird. You have bun heads and bun heads, too. And your story is remarkable because you are just an incredibly hard worker. And we're just trying to get kids off screens. You know, I think that any type of hobby that we have, anything that we can do that, you know, helps us to be in our body and helps us to move, is so good for our children. But I loved reading your story and learning about how this was even your title, this is an Unlikely Ballerina is. You were doing something completely different. You know, after school, you're going and. And you have things that you really like, and then someone says to you, hey, you should try ballet. And you just sometimes think, what if that one person wouldn't have said that? Can you talk about that part? Like, you have this whole. And you're kind of late in it. We feel a lot of pressure to put our kids in at 2 and 3 and you're later, you know, those older ages or people would say it's too late, but this is a big shift, and you fall in love with it.
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B
Yeah. I mean, I thank you for pointing out, you know, all of the, you know, just the importance of. Of. Of being in your body, you know, as a young person and what that means to, you know, to find, you know, meeting children where they are and to find what works for them in the ways that, you know, they're learning. And that was a struggle for me, and it's something that I'm still unraveling. Like, I was having a con with my husband, like, two nights ago about this and that, you know, in our education system, you know, movement and. And that way, kind of, you know, physical education and arts education and dance education is just not a part of the system. And had I had that exposure and understanding at a younger age, I think that I would have had a lot less stress. I would have been thriving in so many different ways. But ballet came into my life at 13 years old. So it's very late for. For a dancer, especially if they're looking to make that into a career. But I feel like it was the exact perfect time in terms of age. You know, of course, I wish I would have been exposed to it, had an understanding of it earlier, but I don't think that everyone needs to go into it at 2 or 3 years old. Like, yes, it's fun. I think it's great for them to be exposed to it. But I feel like at 13, I had a different respect and appreciation for choosing to do this. So I really. I really didn't have much interest in. When I was younger. I was so introverted, and I was so shy, and, you know, I'm one of six kids, and my mom was working many jobs and raising us on her own, and we were houseless for a lot of my childhood. You know, we were living in. Out. In and out of motels and sleeping at people's couches and things like that. And so because of the way I was brought up, I was even more introverted, and I didn't want to be the center of attention. I didn't. Like, I had very few close friends because I didn't want them to know what was going on with me. And so, yeah, I mean, people find it so interesting like that that was my personality, and I somehow ended up in this art form where I'm performing in front of millions of people. But, you know, there was something that I found that was so safe in being in a ballet studio, even being on a stage. You know, I was in an environment where I felt like I was in charge in a lot of ways. Like, I was given the tools. I was building confidence and an understanding and respect for myself and my body and for the people around me and. And community, connecting music to my body. And I was learning in a way that that was right for me. And it kind of opened up so many different channels in understanding myself and. And then I just took off. I mean, I only trained for four years before I became a professional ballerina, moved to New York City and joined American Ballet Theater. So it was a very quick rise. But I mean, there was a lot of obstacles and support and, you know, so many things that, that happened within those four years that got me to.
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Where I am age 13. There are so many parents that would think, and this is something that I even struggle with sometimes where I think, oh, it's too late. It's too late for my kid to learn the violin. It's too late for them to pick up the piano. It's too late. It's too late. Because we live in such a world where especially with social media, you're like, well, there's a six year old that's on the news for this, that or the other thing. But you know, in terms of quality of life, it's really not about that. It's about having things that you love to do. And I love that your story pre ballet, pre age 13, included a lot of movement in other ways. You already love movement, you love choreography, you're making up all these dances, you're doing dance, you're the captain, you know, of these other things. And it almost seems like that allowed you to know that you loved movement. So much so that when this other thing came up that it clicked. Can you talk to the parents about the importance then of movement throughout early childhood and just also exposure to different things because you don't necessarily know when the one person is going to say, hey, you got, you're, you've got this, like, this is the thing for you. And you really had, had this foundation. I, it seems like that got you to a point where first of all, you're meeting the people who would say, you know, you would be a really good ballerina. And also, you already know you love movement.
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B
Yeah, I mean, you know, I have a three and a half year old son and I think that it's so important that we're allowing, of course, giving them access and opportunity, but kind of letting them lead us in where they naturally kind of gravitate towards. I, you know, again, like I'm one of six kids and my mom didn't, was, did not at all have the time or means to focus us on, each of us individually in a way that I am with my son. But.
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I naturally was drawn to music and movement. And my mom, she was actually a professional cheerleader for the Kansas City Chiefs when she was like 19 years old and she grew up dancing. But we Were not. I was not introduced to any formal dancing at all. But she always danced around the house, and there was always music playing, and it became, like, a natural outlet for me again. Like, I was so introverted, I didn't want to talk. And it just became this organic way for me to express myself. And then from there, it was in my middle school that it was. It was me. I mean, I guess it was watching my mother, like, knowing that she had. She was a cheerleader, watching my older sister, who was on the drill team. And I decided, I'm going to audition for captain of the drill team. I don't really know where that confidence came from, because I was not confident in any other aspect of my life. And it was from there that I was made captain, which I think all the girls that auditioned were like, where did she come from? She's not in any of our dance classes. Like, how did she become captain? And then it was the drill team coach who then introduced me to my ballet teacher at the Boys and Girls Club, where I was already a member. And I took my first ballet class on a basketball court. It was a free class. You know, the teacher was looking for the opportunity to give to young people that wouldn't otherwise have the access to it. And I happen to be one of those. But, you know, I think that it's just so vital that we're not always looking at these arts or activities as a means of, you know, becoming a career or something like that. I think that just by exposing them to it, it's sparking something. It's giving them the tools that can take them. They can take these tools with them, no matter what it is they want to continue doing. And, you know, the way that I was introduced to ballet is the exact kind of method and goal. And, you know, the reason that I started my foundation. And it's a free ballet class that's being offered to kids in the Bronx, in Harlem, through community centers, and it's. It's called Be Bold. So it stands for Ballet Explorations. Ballet offers leadership development. So the goal is not for them to just necessarily transition on in some pipeline to a professional ballet school, but it's to give them leadership skills so they can go on to do whatever it is they want to do. But the fact that they're moving their bodies, they're hearing live music, and they're exposing themselves to this, it's opening up a whole other world to them that's different from being in school in the way that we learn. And you're sitting and you're being talked to and you're reading and it's different way of learning.
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A
There's this woman I really love and respect named Angela Hanscom and she wrote this book called Balanced and Barefoot. And it's about the value of getting kids outdoors and movement. And she does her program sometimes in schools where the kids go outside for two hours or something that's way longer than a typical recess. And they go out in the woods and they, they don't really have anything, any materials and they just do. They play in the woods and come up with games and things. And the teachers go, the teachers. Because I was like, oh, well, the teachers just catch up on email during those two hours and they're like, no, no. The teachers go along and what they said they, that happens that's remarkable is that the teachers see a different side of the kids and they're like, oh, I didn't know that one could be a leader. Oh, I didn't know that one would act this certain way. And they, they sort of rise to the occasion in a different environment. And so I think that's a really remarkable part of your story. It's a reminder to all adults that when you're given the opportunity in a different environment, you have an opportunity to play around with these different roles. What's it like to be captain Missy? What's it like to be on the stage? You said in your memoir, you said the stage was somehow an oasis at school. I was so afraid of being called on in class that my stomach would tremble. But here is this stage, a place that allowed you to forget your worries about not fitting in, your embarrassment about your mom being married so many times, the ache you felt on days when you couldn't see Harold, that ballet was a respite and otherwise turbulent, this turbulent life. And you just don't know like what these activities for kids are going to do for them. Deep down. Like you said, it's not about being a professional. It's about what does a hands on embodied activity provide for a child in ways that we may never even really know. You say dancing cleared your mind, your worries would dissolve. And so I think that's such an important message, especially in a day when things are really steeped in screens. Can you talk about being so self driven? So you talked about how you know, so you become exposed to ballet. You say, is this even dance? You know, at the beginning, is it even dance and you don't have the leotard and things like that at the beginning? You don't have the ballet supplies because you're exposed, but very quickly, you are very immersed in it. And you say, you know, you're studying these other dancers endlessly. You pay a close attention to the ways their heads move and the ways their elbows are, and you're tapped into the power of movement, and you find this escape. But you. It's been hours and hours working on your routines, and, you know, I think sometimes we try and push our kids, but you can really see in your book, in your memoir, life in Motion, this is coming from inside of you.
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Yeah. Yeah. You know, there was not.
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A lot of stability, consistency, and structure in my life, and I think that every child is really craving that, you know, that sense of stability and normalcy and structure. And ballet gave me all these kind of missing elements that I didn't have in my childhood that, you know, I think sports gives us. I think an art can give us that I think is really necessary, like, for the. For the human to have. And I think something that was so beautiful for me within ballet that made me want to continue to push myself was that there was, like, freedom within the form. So, you know, and I. And it's. What's interesting, though, too, is that I think most people would not describe ballet that way, that have experienced. I think a lot of people might think, like, it's so rigorous in a way that there's no room for, like, the. The freedom or joy. And I know that it's possible to experience and learn and teach ballet in a way that can be how I experienced it, which is how, you know, I've created my own curriculum with my foundation through these programs, to make it so that it's not, you know, abusive and so strict, that, you know, you're so many young people that I meet that are like, well, we do all forms of dance in my school, but ballet's just the least fun. And I think. Well, I think that's the way it's being taught to young people. And it's like, we're continuing this cycle. But there was something that was just so beautiful about the way my teacher taught us and that there was so much joy in it. And I wanted to. I wanted to learn every day, like, so I was spending hours on my own, just trying to learn as much as I could on my own. Or perfect. I mean, I hate using that word, but, like, you know, be the best I could be in. In the things that I knew. And I think it's because it was being taught in such a nurturing and loving environment where it wasn't like you have to be the best or, you know, it's like you're a part of a whole. You're a part of a community. You're part of something that's bigger than you, and you're all kind of working towards the same goal of being your best self, getting on stage, performing together, having fun. And then it makes learning fun and joyful. And that, to me, is what I've valued about being a part of this art form is the ways in which I've been able to learn and further understand how I personally should be learning and how a lot of kids, I think, can thrive by being exposed to the arts.
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Yes, yes. And that's the point. Kids can thrive by being exposed to the arts. If you're like me, sometimes you look back and think, why didn't I learn that earlier? Like, why was I conjugating German verbs instead of learning how to balance a checkbook? Why did I scrape my way through college wishing I'd bought Bitcoin at less than a cent? Or honestly, why didn't someone teach me the pure joy of baking homemade bread sooner? We might just be the FOMO generation, but here's one thing you don't want to miss out on. Protecting your future. And the good news, for around the same price per month as one of your streaming services, you can break that generational cycle and actually secure your family's future to with life insurance from selectquote.com here's why I love them. Select Quote takes the guesswork out of everything. You don't have to compare dozens of confusing policies. One of their licensed agents will do it for you for free, matching it with a policy that fits your health, your lifestyle and your budget. And you can get covered faster than you'd think. Some providers even offer same day coverage up to $2 million with no medical exam required. Life insurance is never cheaper than it is today. Get the right life insurance for you for less and save more than 50%@SelectQuote.com 1000 hours save more than 50% on term life insurance SelectQuote.com 1000 hours today to get started. That's SelectQuote.com 1000 hours.
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B
Yes. Yes. And. And I think that it's also about showing that there can be so many different ways of storytelling and. And using dance as a form of storytelling as well, and that I think we typically, you know, we see these ballet books or ballet stories, and it's kind of always the same. You know, there's this princess, and she meets a prince. You know, it's similar to, like, a Disney, you know, fairy tale. And a lot of the ballet stories are kind of around. Around those themes. And I wanted to show that, first of all, the characters that are being depicted can look like anyone, you know, because I think that that's something that I've struggled with and fought up against, is that I was often the only black girl in my class or in, you know, at American Ballet Theatre, I was the only black woman in the company for the first 10 years of my career and the first one to be promoted to principal dancer. So I think there are just. There is a lot of opportunity in writing children's books for me to kind of represent a broader people and show that there are many stories that can be told. And so really, the inspiration behind Firebird, which was my first picture book, was really based. It's a beautiful story of mentorship and the importance of it. And the character of the Firebird is really based on me. And then it's a young girl that I'm kind of guiding through, and she's seeing, you know, all the success that I've had. But that. That's not really what it's about. And that it's really about this journey that you're on and me kind of supporting this young dancer. But that's how I look at, you know, writing children's books in particular, is that we can tell different stories that represent different people. And in Bunheads, I have Bunheads one and two. I'm already writing three and four. And my goal is to really get, you know, strong male characters in the ballet studio because that is something that we're constantly fighting up against, that boys don't dance, boys don't do ballet. We have one character in the book, Wolfie, whose character will kind of be brought out more, and then we'll introduce more characters in the. In the future of the Bun Heads series.
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Oh, there's more to come. What's really special, I think, is if you're a parent and you read your book, so you read the memoir Life in Motion, and then you get the kids books and you read those with the kids. There's themes that come up in both. And so depending on the age of your kids, you can have different conversations with them. Because in Firebird, you're talking about, you know, desperate to be noticed, caught among five siblings. You know, you don't fit anywhere. And in here you talk about how the discovery of movement became your saving grace, and you, you know, you dance your worries and fears away. So the themes are coming up, you know, for the little kid level, but also they mirror your memoir. So, okay, in Bunheads, one of the things that you talk about is there's always this struggle when you don't get the role.
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Mm.
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So, you know, this is something that happens all throughout childhood. Our 12 year old today is auditioning for Shrek the musical or something. Shrek Jr. The musical. You know, we've had all these conversations, like you might get. You might be in the ensemble, you might be in the tech crew. You just. You don't know what's going to happen. Can you talk to the parent and children listening to you, like, about how this is. This is a tricky part of the arts, is that sometimes you get picked and sometimes you don't.
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B
Yeah. You know, and it's not even just the arts. It's life. These are life lessons and something. No matter how fabulous and smart and talented and amazing you are, you're going to Come up against, you know, rejection or disappointment. Like, these are all human, normal themes that we will experience in our lives. And I'm just using, you know, this vessel of ballet and dance that I know and have experience in. And so, you know, I feel like I've approached my career in a way that, again, like, I've said it already a couple of times, but that I'm a part of something that's bigger than me and that it's not just.
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Just about me.
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And I think that that's like, it's to. To me, to think of dance, to me is similar thinking of being a part of a sports team. That, yes, you may be auditioning to be the lead or whatever it is, but being the lead does not mean that you're the only one who's telling the story. Every single person on the stage is such a vital part of telling the story that you, you know, that you guys are trying to get across to the audience. And. And that's something that even when I. When I became a principal dancer, that was so important to me because I had been in the corps de ballet, which is the large body of dancers that stand on the side and frame the people in the center. I've been a soloist where you're featured, but you're not the lead. And then I've been the lead. And it's been just so important for me to acknowledge the people that are around the stage on me, because it makes you a better storyteller, if you understand all of the characters and the contributions that they have to what it is. And so I think it's important to kind of express that and express. Explain that to our children, the bigger kind of theme, but within. Within the Bunheads books, you know, I think it's showing that being a part of the art form and being in community and the friendships and relationships are really the big. The bigger picture of the book. That it's not about the parts, it's not about ballet even necessarily, but it's using ballet as a means to develop these relationships and learn these life skills and tools. And that's how I've felt like if. Yes, I've had a successful career, but the skills and the tools that I have by being a part of the art form has made me the person that I am, which is the most important part.
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A
One of the topics that comes up in the Bun Heads books. So the kids books and the memoir, so read them both. You know, get the book. I'm like, get the book. For you, as the mom, you Know, it's going to inspire you. It's a great story. It's a fantastic read. And then get the books read with your kids, and it's just like this whole package for your family. But another one that you talk about is injury. So, you know, you've got a character in the book that sad that. That she can't perform, but happy that the class gets to you and they're going to dedicate the performance to you and you dealt with injury and is. I could would imagine that at the time. It just feels catastrophic. Can you talk about your advice for kids and for adults when they hit a point where maybe for a period or maybe forever that an injury happens and they're good, they're going to have to pivot or wait.
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B
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was an important theme for me to have in Bunheads 2, where Kat is one of the characters. She ends up hurting her ankle and was supposed to perform the lead in the ballet and has to sit back and now support her friends, you know, and I think that that's the, like, important thing is that she's not just stepping away and, like, she's no longer a part of it, but that this. The teacher in the studio embraced her as still being a big part of the production. Like, how can she contribute from her culture for the ballet, Don Quixote, and help prepare the kids and still be there cheering them on, which can be very difficult. You know, as you said, I've experienced injury throughout my career. I think one of the most important, like, things that I've learned in my journey and being injured is the huge amount of growth I've experienced whenever I've been injured. And that seems very backwards and counterintuitive that people might think, well, I'm away from it and I'm not improving like my.
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Teammates or colleagues are, that those times when I've been able to kind of get off the hamster wheel, which it can be like, just, like, constant. Like, you're in class, you're doing this, you're doing, and you, like, don't have a moment to, like, stop and really think about what it is you're doing or if you still even are passionate about it. Like, there's so many things that you can learn by kind of stepping away. Learn about yourself kind of. You know, I had a very severe injury where I had six chest fractures to my tibia. I was out for almost a year. And it was during this. I mean, I was. I had just performed my first leading role. It was in the Firebird. The Firebird. I performed in the Firebird. And I remember I took that time to really kind of reassess, like, my technique and the things that I hadn't been able to focus on. Like, oh, I remember my teachers, they always talk about my port de bras, which is the carriage of the arms, and different things that, like, I, you know, when you're going, going, going, you don't have time to focus. Really, really focus on. And I took the time to do that, and I came back to the stage, and my artistic director said to me, I'm so surprised that you look stronger and more kind of nuanced and evolved in your artistry than when you left the stage. And I was just like, that is the biggest compliment. And it was like, I took the time. And I think that, you know, we can support our. Our children in understanding the journey, that it's not always the destination, it's not always the performance. But, like, how are we learning to work in a different way so you don't get injured? How are you being smarter about things? You know? And so I. And I think that it's also a moment for them to learn from watching their friends, you know, practice or rehearse or whatever it is that's really valuable to use the resources around you, and that can be those who are. Who are playing in sports or dancing right next to you that you can really step back and learn from.
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A
What a reframe? What a reframe. I'm sad I can't perform, but happy the class gets to you. You could dedicate the performance to them, and then you can have this time to reflect. Then you had talked about how you never got to play Clara. You're in a back brace for 23 hours a day for six months, and you talk about how these injuries are common. One minute you are the star, and then you are hurt. Someone moves into your light and you disappear so completely you cannot even find your shadow. I think that happens. There's such a fear of being replaced and forgotten. So these are important topics to talk about in any aspect of life, the arts obviously included, but really tricky, I think, when. When you just feel like you're going to be left behind. So what a story. And these themes are for adults and for kids. You have a lot of friends. You made a lot of friends through the ballet, which is a great part. That's another thing. Mean kids are struggling with loneliness. We're all struggling with loneliness. We need more hobbies. We need more things that we're doing. With other people. And it was really cool to see. So, you know, you read in Life in Motion, you read about Kaylin, you become partners in your dancewear business. And then Kaylin's in bun heads too. So like, oh, wait, I already know who that is. You know, there's all these interweavings. You did a remarkable job of inner. You know, it's like then is that grown up when you're sitting reading a kid's book with your kid. I know who Caitlin is. So can you talk about that part of kids are on screens. You know how this is. You know what's going on in the world. Misty. It's four to seven minutes outside, four to seven hours on screens. The majority of kids, free time, which they do have quite a bit if you think about that after school time, you're talking about going to the Boys and Girls Club. If you talk about that 3 to 9 or 4 to 8 or there is time. And if we can help our kids and guide them to use that time for hobbies in real life, hands on experiences, they have an opportunity to make a lot of friends.
- [31:19]
B
Yeah, I mean, what I would say, and it's so funny, I was just coming from my son's school where they had like a parent teacher, like a big conference thing, and just when we were talking about kind of these themes. But the importance of leading by example, it can be that simple. You know, your children are a reflection of you and what they see. And I think it can be as simple as you not having your phone around all the time and being on it, you wanting to participate in the things that they're doing. I mean, of course everyone has different schedules and lives. My mom couldn't always be there for us and be active and a participant. But I think that the more that you can set an example and show, you know, the behavior that you want your child to have, I think is extremely important. And it's as simple as that. It's not even like, oh, I've got to go see, spend all this money on all these after school, you know, programs and things like that. But go outside with your child, move with them, run with them, you know, get dirty with them, bring them into the kitchen with you, have them be a part of, you know, of. Even if it's just these mundane things you have to do to feed your child, but make it a part of the, you know, experience and community. I think that those things are, are really important.
- [32:44]
Yeah.
- [32:45]
A
And then you have all these hands on experiences and through a lot of those, you can make so many deep friendships. You talk about, you know, coming back to the dorm, hobbling back to the dorm with Jessica and Ko Go Kayoko and, like, putting your feet in ice buckets and, you know, trash cans filled with ice and water. But, you know, there's also really tricky parts here. And you talk about that. And I think this is another thing that happens in life. You say in the ballet company and in life, right, you often have to compete with your friends and your peers for the same role. So there's people that are jealous. There's people that even in life, in work. I just talked to this man named Tim Elmore, and he is, like an expert on the generations, and he talks about how there's always this thought in the workplace that you have to pay your dues. And what if someone comes in and they're really good at the job, but they haven't paid their dues? And so no one's listening to their ideas. Ideas. And so sometimes you come up through these ranks and people are like, well, who's that? And why is she getting the role? Can you talk about how you dealt with that? Yeah.
- [33:49]
B
You know, I think that something that I've just done throughout my journey, my career is just really staying true to who I am and myself. And I've always been, like, very. A very open and honest person, and I want to be treated with kindness, so I always treat others the same way, you know, that I would want to be treated. And I think that that's kind of how I've developed the strong friendships that I've had that I kept throughout my journey. As you said, you know, in the Bunhead series, like, all of those characters are based on actual friendships, and that I still have to this day with these young people. And it's. And it's because we had this beautiful shared interest and love and passion for dance and for music and I think just being kind to each other. And again, I think we were in an environment where that was being shown to us that I didn't come from a conservatory, where sometimes that's the environment these young people are in, where they're taught to be competitive. And I think that it's our responsibility as parents to say that, yes, you can, you know, have that rigor, but it can be joyful still. It doesn't have to come with this kind of cutting edge and that you can learn so much from the. From the people that you're working with, and that it doesn't have to be a competition in a negative way. I think competition can be healthy and you can still be friends with the people that you're competing against, you know, and I think that it teaches you, it gives you so much character when you can put your all into something and then step back and say now is not my time or I'm going to do some, you know, I'm going to be a part of this in another way and I can still support my friends. It's hard. I think that it's, it's good to talk about it with your child and kind of get it out all the things that they're feeling and then kind of carry on and still be able to support, you know, those whose time it is or whatever, you know, language you, you want to use.
- [35:53]
A
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- [39:50]
It'S like in this day and age of loneliness, you see, you see your vibrant friend, your friendships, and you know, you see it in, in the, your memoir. But then you also see it in the children's books, too. And it's something that we need to be reminded of that when we do these things, that can be tricky. That's really tricky to learn. You had to learn that. You had to learn. How do I deal with my friend getting the role that I really wanted to? Those are a lot of things to learn throughout adolescence and into adulthood. And you're able to maintain these strong friendships. And so it's good, good message for kids. So the books, the kids books fire, but the illustrations are phenomenal. This one is a winner of the Ezra Jack Keats honor and Coretta Scott King award winner. Ballerina Misty Copeland shows a young girl how to dance like the firebird. I mean, the illustrations are, wow, wow, wow. There's bun heads, there's bun heads, two bun heads, three and four. You heard it here. Those will be coming. And so just fantastic things to read with your kids and to get them immersed in the real life, the arts and doing things with their body and becoming enthralled. You, you're, they're enthralling books. Even just a cover, you're like, you're, you're immediately enthralled. You're like, wow, look how people can move their bodies. So it's wonderful. Okay, I want to talk about a couple incredible things that you've done. I mean, you've done so many incredible things, but a couple things that stood out in the book that were just beyond the ballet. Right? So it's like the ballet is just this incredible accomplishment, this principle. I, I don't know all the words because it's not part of my vernacular, but, you know, you just rise through the ranks. And then I saw you had this dance. I'm like, oprah was there. And yeah, I was like, okay, starting at 13. And you say in here, you're never too old. You're never too old. Self doubt taunted me. You're too old, you're behind. You'll never catch up. Like, little did you know, you'll be dancing. And Oprah would Be there, you know. So, I mean, this is just such a message. It's such a message. Okay, but beyond all that, you performed on a piano? Yes, on a piano. Tell us about that.
- [41:53]
B
Well.
- [41:55]
It wasn't a steady piano. It was Prince's piano.
- [42:00]
Yeah. You know, I met Prince.
- [42:03]
He was a soloist at American Valley Theater. So I was very much performing and on stage, and he had been following my career since I was a teenager, and he asked me to be in a music video of his, and we ended up forming this beautiful artistic working relationship and friendship. And I toured on and off with him. Whenever I was in, like, off seasons from American Ballet Theater, I would travel and tour with Prince, and he had his welcome to America tour. I think it was in 2011. 2010. 2011. And he really kind of built this tour around me. And whenever I was off, I think ABT was performing the Nutcracker at the time. And whenever I wasn't on stage performing the Nutcracker, I would run over to Madison Square Garden and perform with Prince and dance atop his piano. And it was just an incredible experience, you know, not only for me as an artist to be able to perform with and work with an artist of his caliber, but someone who really understood his identity and, you know, kind of setting this example of, like, you don't have to follow trends, you don't have to fit a mold to be successful. And it was like, all these things I was grappling with, being the only black woman in the company and standing out. And I remember him saying to me, like, why is it a bad thing that you stand out? Like, all eyes are going to be on you. And it was like. It kind of reframed the way I was thinking, and I was like, oh, that. That's very interesting. I guess you're right. But. But working with him, I think, really just expanded the ways I was thinking about my art form and the reach I could have. And to this day, you know, like, going out the stage door and meeting fans that, you know, saw the performance that are like, oh, the first time I saw you perform was with Prince, and I had no interest in ballet. And now I come to see the ballet, like, every season, and I, you know, and I have interest in it. And it's like, you know, being able to go into different spaces and have different entry points for people into the arts is something that's really important to me at this stage in my life and my career.
- [44:14]
A
Yeah, that's what you say. Giving a taste of ballet to many who have never Seen one. So like I said, we're gonna go see the Nutcracker here. And it's like December 7th and 8th, and our friends, kids, they dance. And even we talk about the little boy. You know, he's one of the party boys. And so we love to go and to support them. And, you know, so I lost my train of thought.
- [44:40]
B
I'm like, if you're talking about Prince, you're talking about getting.
- [44:43]
A
Oh, that's right.
- [44:44]
B
Okay, okay.
- [44:45]
A
You're the best.
- [44:48]
Okay, so we're gonna go see the ballet. And obviously this is a huge stage and they utilize the entire thing and the dancers are, you know, from, from one side to the other side. I really can't imagine then dancing on top of a piano.
- [45:02]
B
Oh, yes. I mean, it's not something I would recommend to anyone. Like, it was, we were, it was, you know, very like, thought out. Like the, you know, I, the. I had to have special material put on the bottoms of my pointe shoes so that I didn't slip and fall. And it was a lot of rehearsals and limited movement. You know, I wasn't doing the whole performance on, on top of this piano. I was doing some of it, which was, you know, again, very.
- [45:28]
It was designed for what I was doing. Otherwise I was moving around the stage and dancing with Prince. But yeah, it was, it was an, an interesting experience.
- [45:38]
A
Oh, yeah. What a brilliant thing. What a creative thing to think. Hey, here's a spot that you could dance. You wrote. My greatest balancing act was making sure I did not slip off as I spun on top of the piano. And once again, this goes back to your self driven nature. And you're talking about when you're young, even in high school, you're just self driven. You're looking at what is everyone else doing. And then you talk about with Prince. Sometimes you're up till 2 in the morning, you're going from one rehearsal to the next. So there's a lot of self drive there that gets you to where you're at. You talked about just a moment ago that when you meet fans, you know, they come and they say, oh, the first time I saw you was when you were dancing with Prince. And then now, you know, I've fallen in love with the ballet. Can you talk about. Because you had this moment where you meet Paloma and you say, you know, she was like one of the people that you were idolizing and you're like watching her and, and finally you're desperate to follow her path and you get to meet her and you say it Wasn't that great of an experience meeting her? Would you see, like, people are distracted. They've got a lot of things going on. You wrote, they say it's not a good idea to meet your idols because you find out they are as human moody, as imperfect as you did. Has that affected how you react to fans when people, I mean, because you're recognized out in public, you're at all of these events, you dance, people want to talk to you afterward. Beforehand. Did that affect at all how you respond to your own fans?
- [47:02]
B
I mean, I think that it's how I've always been in life, that.
- [47:08]
No matter like what I'm feeling, I tend to like, turn on when I'm like, you know, around people.
- [47:16]
But it's, it's hard. Not everyone's going to have an understanding or empathy that you are just like them, you know, that maybe they don't want to be stopped on a 6am flight and asked to take a selfie with them. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know. But, but for me, it's like I'm. No matter what I'm going through, I'm going to be kind. And I think that's like the number one thing. I mean, with, with Paloma, like, you know, and I wrote in the book, and we're very good, good friends at this point. You know, I met her, I think 30 years ago or something like that for the first time. But, you know, I think that it's just having, having an understanding and respecting people's boundaries and knowing that, you know, they're not these perfect cookie cutter, you know, they're. They're human beings with experiences. And it's, and it's, you know, when I met her, it was like she was in her own space. She was in the studio by herself and she was like, you know, kind of in this, like, vulnerable, like, doing her thing. And it's like you want to break out of that and like meet some little girl standing in the doorway. But, you know, it's definitely made me like, see, see two sides, you know, to, to like the human experience, especially when you're in the public and in the spotlight.
- [48:30]
A
I, I felt that there was like this really deep, I guess, relating to your mom. And I think that every mom, in a way, probably would relate to your mom in the fact that at some level, I think we all wish we could do more for our kids and we just have limits. Everyone has limits for whatever the reasons are. We have limits to what we can give our kids and Our story is that I've got this 12 year old who is as tall, taller than I am, very, you know, very womanly looking, already at 12. And she, we didn't do ballet for her. We did like a little bit of little kids ballet and then just I've. We've got five kids and so I was limited, you know, limited in what I could provide and limited in, you know, can I get her there? She's the fourth one out of the fifth. And so recently she was 11. I tried to do it. I was like, finally, you know, and then she was misty. It was really tricky because she was so tall. You know, they put her in with all these little six year olds and she's as tall as a woman and you know, an adult woman. And the kids were like, are you the new teacher? You know, it was actually really hard and it made me like, hope for, you know, just different ways that like you talked about earlier, people can intersect at different ages. But it's. Your book is a reminder that even though we're limited as people, as parents, our kids can still thrive and rise above the challenges that we have. You know, and that was a theme that I got out of the book. You know, you're knocking about all these different sort of cracks that happen in the childhood and you're trying to eat better, you know, and your mom's like, come on, like, is this not good enough for you? And this. We all have these limits as adults. And I think your story reminded me that, you know, I need to try my best to provide what I can, but also be okay that sometimes there's limits.
- [50:28]
B
Yep. I love that. That's so beautiful and it's so true. And I, and I, and I'm so grateful to the way I experienced my upbringing and I think all of my siblings, you know, it's. It's very interesting that we didn't have a lot and we watched my mom make mistakes and you know, Mary over and over and over again. And it's very interesting that all of us have not repeated what we saw, but literally learned from it, which is very fascinating. I, like, someone was telling recently, like, we need to do a study on you and your siblings. The fact that we're all in like relationships that we've been in for like over 20 years, it's just very interesting how every child will, you know, respond differently, you know, know, to, to the environment that they, they come up in. But all of that to say, I think that the underlying thing is that we saw a strong woman Trying to do her best. That never quit. And that was always trying to find another way.
- [51:30]
A
Yeah. You talk about learning in the book. You talk about how you never stop learning. And there was a ballet like, you don't ever stop learning. You're. You've never really arrived. You say you can't ever perfect it.
- [51:42]
B
It.
- [51:42]
A
I know I'll never perfect the ballet technique ever. That's why I love it so much. That's how life is. We're never going to perfect our mom technique. We're never going to perfect our spouse technique. And maybe. I think that's a beautiful way to look at it, Misty. That is a reason to love it, because you get to keep working on it. It never becomes boring. Even though I've done all these movements in this, you know, in these studios a million times over, you're still working at it. You still. You know, you still are going. You still go to class. You. When people are like, what's next? You're like, rehearsal.
- [52:12]
Rehearsal. So can you talk about that? That's a beautiful approach to life, Misty. Especially when maybe look at childhood. Then we're like, we're done learning. You know, we finished. We graduated, and, you know, we're done with that. But I think that's a beautiful way to look at life, our hobbies. That it is a wonderful thing that there's always more to learn.
- [52:31]
B
Yeah. I mean, I think that there's something that's so beautiful about even kind of this ritual of doing the same thing and learning different ways and to. To approach it and. And, you know, doing ballet for as long as I have, it's like. It's really exciting to me to do the same thing kind of again and. And again. But I think that. I think that it's a way that we need to, like, reframe, like, what it is to mature or to age, that you're. You're forever a student. You should always be open for learning. You know, we just started a new program called Be bolder, and it's 4:50 and over, and. Yeah. And it's a free ballet class. And it's in these communities, the same communities that we teach our young kids and Be Bold in that program. But, you know, and again, it's. It's about creating community. It's about kind of waking up, you know, different ways of learning and processing. And that's so important, not just for young people, but for all ages, that we just kind of keep our minds open and that I think in the end, it's really about connecting with people.
- [53:39]
A
There is this statistic. It's in a book called Smart Moves. And the author, her name is Dr. Carla Hannaford. She's a. She's obviously a PhD. Dr. Carla Hanford. And she didn't learn to read till she was 10, so she's like a little older. She's in her 80s. She talks about how when she was a kid, it didn't really matter when you learned to read. So she's kind of like. Like maybe in some ways a little bit of a late bloomer. And she had a statistic in there that said elderly people who dance regularly have a 76% less chance of developing dementia.
- [54:08]
B
Incredible. Yeah, it's amazing. And I'm sure music's connected to that as well.
- [54:12]
A
Yes, music was 69 if you play a musical instrument. So the dance is a little. It's probably because it's a full body movement. What a thing. Then you're offering these over 50s because it's not just the movement, but then it's also the relationship. Both they're building these strong friendships, these bonds that they need. We're in this loneliness epidemic. Can you tell people, obviously they can get the books wherever books are sold. Life in Motion is the memoir and unlikely ballerina. You've got Firebird, you've got Bun heads, and then bun heads too. And then the new ones will be coming. People can be excited about lots of other books.
- [54:43]
B
I think I have 10 in total. And I'm working on the next. The next two. Yeah, but I mean, I have. I have a website, Misty Copeland.com. i'm on social media, Misty on point. And there's so much more to come. I have a production company called Life in Motion Productions. I'm working on a lot of different projects that you will be able to see in theaters, on your television, kids programming. My foundation, of course, Misty Copeland foundation.org you can find out more information there about what we're doing. But everything, all roads lead to dance and art and movement and just different platforms in which to reach people, you know, and expose them to it.
- [55:22]
A
That's wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. It is really, truly such an honor. Such an honor to get a chance to have this conversation. The books are phenomenal. If people live in an. In an area where they can go to these classes, I mean, what a gift for them, both for the young ones and for the, you know, for the ones that are getting on in years. I'm getting on in years. And it's such a great thing to know that this is going to help Your brain. It's going to help your brain function. And then like you said, for the bun heads, books that are coming, including the young gentleman, you know, we've got a friend, like I said, who's a party boy, and then Nutcracker. And he said that, you know, a year or two ago, I mean, they almost didn't have enough that I think he told me just yesterday this. This little guy was over. He's friends with our youngest daughter. And he told me, he said last year or the year before, it was like two weeks before the performance. And they still needed, you know, they still needed a party boy. They were one short. So I love that these. These new books are really going to be helping the young men to join in on this dance form. We always end our show with the same question. Misty, what's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside?
- [56:27]
B
Oh, my gosh, I love this. There's so many. I would say, like, I started teaching myself gymnastics outside on the grass, but I would say another one was, I remember finding this little garden snake and I named him Stripes. And that memory has stuck with me to this day. I think I was 7 or 8 years old. And there was something about connecting with, like, just like the earth and being outside and grounding and. I don't know, it was very special.
- [56:59]
A
I think that could be a children's book down the road. Stripes. Oh, and you still remember. Isn't that miraculous how these small things can have such an impact? You talked about the gymnastics, you know, the outdoor gymnastics in Life in Motion. I loved reading about that. Missy, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for all your inspiration. Thank you for just living this incredibly full life that inspires other people to do the same. Like, can I do more with my life? You know, you just rattled off all these things that you've done with your life. Grew up in a pretty unstable situation. People can read about that and, like, life in Motion. And I've just gone on to do so many things with your life. So many. It's like, eclectic, but it all has threads that run through it. So appreciate your time. Thank you for being here and congratulations on all these incredible successes.
- [57:43]
B
Thank you so much. It's such a pleasure.
- [57:46]
A
I'm so excited. Okay, I'm getting it up. I'm actually right before the. Our friends do their Nutcracker ballet. The.
- [57:53]
B
Love it. And good luck to all of them and enjoy the show.