1KHO 642: Most People Are Starved for Connection | Ben Swire, Safe Danger

Summary

The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast

Episode Title: Most People Are Starved for Connection | Ben Swire, Safe Danger
Host: Jenny Eric
Guest: Ben Swire, author of Safe Danger and founder of Make Believe Works
Air Date: December 6, 2025
Network: That Sounds Fun Network

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Overview

This episode dives into the importance of real human connection in a world increasingly dominated by screens and risk aversion. Host Jenny Eric speaks with Ben Swire about his book Safe Danger: An Unexpected Method for Sparking Connection, Finding Purpose, and Inspiring Innovation. They explore why adults – especially introverts and skeptics – need more meaningful experiences at work and home, how experiential activities foster vulnerability and growth, and practical, playful ways to break down barriers in communities and organizations. The conversation is full of honest self-reflection, practical stories, and actionable insights from both the workplace and family life.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Ben Swire’s Unlikely Path from Wall Street to Connection Work

• Ben describes himself as "an introvert's introvert" who would "rather gnaw off a limb than do a skit or party games" ([00:55]).
• Transitioned from a decade in financial marketing on Wall Street to the renowned design firm IDEO, which redefined his view on work and human potential ([03:29]).

“It's sort of God's joke on me. Gonna make you very shy. Gonna make you an introvert. And now you will lead games with strangers that are skeptical.” – Ben Swire ([02:57])

2. IDEO and the Importance of Playful, Trust-Building Cultures

• IDEO’s culture: Celebrating people for who they are rather than just what they do ([08:22]).
• IDEO’s history of creative innovation (e.g., helping design the first mouse for Steve Jobs and Apple) through multidisciplinary teams ([13:32]).
• Bi-weekly "creative play dates" started by Ben to foster authentic connections and trust within the company ([12:54], [19:51]).

“Most companies celebrate you for what you do...IDEO was a place where they celebrated you for who you were.” – Ben Swire ([08:22])

3. Safe Danger—Balancing Risk and Trust for Connection

• The concept of “safe danger” is about giving people a chance to step outside their comfort zones in a controlled, empathetic environment ([06:36]).
• Emotional risk is practiced through playful, structured activities so vulnerability becomes muscle memory.
• Story of Ben’s daughter: Helping her face fear on the playground translates to adults learning to risk vulnerability at work ([06:36]).

“Most people are starved for connection and just don't know how to make it happen. And if you give them a chance, they'll embrace it.” – Ben Swire ([06:36])

4. Why Entertainment Isn’t Enough—The Power of Meaningful Challenge

• Simple workplace events (picnics, trivia nights) are less impactful than shared experiences involving personal risk, growth, and reflection ([23:05]).
• Transformative experiences come from overcoming challenges together.
• Activities that include a personal investment, not just “pass the time,” build lasting connection ([25:02]).

“Connection takes more than just sharing the same space or experience, no matter how fun that experience may be in the moment. It's about growth.” – Jenny Eric ([23:05])

5. Moving Beyond Competition to True Collaboration

• Many bonding activities lean into competition, which actually divides; meaningful connection requires inclusive, non-competitive play ([25:02]).
• Activities at Make Believe Works are designed to avoid putting the loudest people in control and instead draw out everyone’s story ([27:39]).

“If your goal is meaningful connection between people...competition inherently divides people.” – Ben Swire ([25:02])

6. Seven Qualities of Safe Danger for Experiential Understanding

• Safe Danger develops: joy, vulnerability, curiosity, optimism, connection, trust, and creativity ([37:05]-[37:54]).
• These are “muscles” developed through doing, not theory.
• Most people live by others’ rules and need environments to rediscover their authentic selves.

7. Deep Dive: Optimism and Pessimism

• Ben reframes pessimism as "repackaged fear" and “fear as a lifestyle,” not just negativity ([38:30]).
• Optimists not only live longer (as demonstrated humorously with deathclock.com) but also live more vibrant lives and foster resilience ([42:17]).

“Pessimism is repackaged fear. It encourages you to lock yourself away, to huddle...Optimism is earned. It's what gets us through dark moments.” – Ben Swire ([38:30])

8. Vulnerability—Uncovering Richness and Authenticity at Work

• Great leaders expand their people’s sense of self and encourage contributions beyond job descriptions ([46:19]).
• Activities for teachers: When they’re put in the vulnerable position of participants, not just facilitators, they develop deeper empathy for students ([46:39]).
• Sharing secrets or worries (even anonymously at conferences) provides authentic connection ([47:39]).

“Every great leader I’ve worked with has helped me understand myself better and inspired me to find new ways that I could contribute to the team beyond my job description.” – Ben Swire ([46:19])

9. Activities & Practical Takeaways

• Pick the Third Thing on the Menu: Inspired by Ben’s Uncle Herb, choosing the third item at restaurants as a small adventure to introduce novelty ([56:41]).
• Presenting Under Pressure: Improv-style presentations with random slide decks, reframing public performance as playful experimentation ([59:02]).
• “Moving Stories” Activity: Participants embody the process of overcoming internal creative blocks through movement—surprises participants with its power to reveal and foster self-understanding and empathy ([61:22]-[66:25]).
• Daily micro-habits: five minutes of trying something new, napping, learning simple skills—small, intentional steps to stretch comfort and joy ([56:06]).

“Part of [my uncle's] purpose in life was to surprise himself...He found something to like about it, but he also found something to talk about.” – Ben Swire ([56:41])

10. Loneliness, Work, and Joyful Productivity

• American workplaces and entire generations are facing a loneliness epidemic; real connection improves not just mood but performance ([27:39], [53:45]).
• Statistics: organizations that prioritize people over profit make four times the average profit and are happier, more resilient, and more innovative ([28:43]).
• Mood matters: individuals in a good mood are 31% more productive ([53:45]).

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Notable Quotes and Timestamps

• “I would never have gone to one of my own workshops. Not voluntarily.” – Ben Swire ([01:34])
• “When you give people an opportunity to step outside their comfort zone, but make it safe for them...that's when they see, oh, I like this.” – Ben Swire ([06:36])
• “Forms of entertainment do little more than pass the time. ...If you add a little risk...then it becomes meaningful.” – Jenny Eric ([23:05])
• “Every great leader I’ve worked with has helped me understand myself better and inspired me to find new ways that I could contribute to the team beyond my job description.” – Ben Swire ([46:19])
• “Pessimism is repackaged fear. It’s fear as a lifestyle.” – Ben Swire ([38:30])
• “Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past.” – Anne Lamott, quoted by Ben Swire ([52:08])
• “Often the biggest obstacle to bringing more joy to our lives is ourselves.” – Jenny Eric ([54:02])
• “Favorite memory from my childhood was...I used to hide in the tree when my father would walk underneath it and pretend to be Robin Hood.” – Ben Swire ([67:00])

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Ben’s introversion and career transition – [00:53]-[03:29]
• IDEO, culture of trust, and creative play dates – [07:58]-[16:06]
• Safe danger: The theory and parental insights – [06:36]-[07:37]
• Why entertainment isn't enough: making time at work meaningful – [23:05]-[25:02]
• Competition vs. Collaboration – [25:02]-[27:39]
• Connection/screen time, loneliness in modern life – [27:39]-[30:45]
• Seven qualities: Safe Danger’s key “muscles” – [36:48]-[37:54]
• Optimism vs. Pessimism – [37:54]-[44:33]
• Vulnerability in leadership and group settings – [46:19]-[49:51]
• Favorite activities and practical tips – [55:48]-[59:02]
• "Moving Stories" activity: embodiment and learning – [61:11]-[66:25]
• Childhood outdoor memory – [67:00]

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Memorable Moments & Insights

• The story of Ben’s journey from Wall Street to “creative platypus” at IDEO is both humorous and poignant.
• The tale of helping his young daughter face playground fear directly reflects how adults can practice vulnerability under “safe danger.”
• The “death clock” anecdote underscores the research-backed connection between optimism, health, and longevity.
• Uncle Herb’s “pick the third thing” captures the whimsical, low-stakes way we can all add more adventure and connection to daily life—even through lunch orders.
• Moving, personal closing story of Ben and his father playing Robin Hood—connecting through outdoor make believe and stories.

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Practical Takeaways

• For parents, educators, and leaders: Build real connection with intentional risk, not just shared space. Allow time for honest, vulnerable sharing—even if it feels awkward.
• For organizations: Meaningful play is not childish—it's a tool for deeper teamwork, innovation, and joy.
• For individuals: Practice optimism, celebrate growth, and don’t be afraid to try the “third thing on the menu.” Expand your comfort zone in small ways and reflect on the experiences.
• Book to Read: Safe Danger by Ben Swire (includes both the theory and dozens of ready-to-use activities).

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This episode is a rich, practical guide to building connection and courage in a disconnected, play-starved world—at home, at work, and everywhere we spend our precious minutes.

Transcript

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[Jenny Eric]

Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Eric. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and I have a new friend here today and he wrote a book called Safe Danger which really drew me in because we are in a day and age where people are taking less risks. The subtitle is An Unexpected method for Sparking Connection, Finding Purpose and Inspiring Innovation. The author Ben Swire is here. Welcome, Ben.

[Ben Swire]

Well, thank you. I'm really looking forward to this.

[Jenny Eric]

Okay, so I, I didn't know what to expect when I picked up this book, Save Danger, which I would imagine maybe you get that feedback sometimes it just came out. But I had this experience. I was a teacher before I, I ended up then staying home with our kids and I'm a podcaster. But when I went through my master's degree, one of the classes I took, it was actually the only class I liked in probably my favorite class of my entire college career, but both undergrad and master's degree. It was called Gaming and Simulation. And I took it just because it fit into my schedule. It was this two week class that was like, you know, a long, like three hours a day or something for a couple weeks. And it was all about, it was all about using gaming and in different types of simulations in, to, to everybody else was not teachers. They were like working in HR departments to engage people. And I loved it. I loved it. We did all these like simulations where it was like role playing and you. And I'm like you. I was like, I hate this stuff. But it was really well done and I ended up using so much of it with my high schoolers. So much, so many of the games I learned. It was the most valuable class I took. And if you do it right, it's, it appears to work. So can you give us your history? You say you are an introverts Intro. What did you word it? Something like that, like I am the introvert of introverts. I'm totally botching it. But you're. But you're like, look, I. I hate stuff. And so many people are like, I hate team building. But you have figured out a way to really make it worth people's while. You say, I would never have gone to one of my own workshops. Not voluntarily. I'm an introverts introvert and have never been one for group activities. I would rather gnaw off a limb than do a skit or party games or any of those types of things. So how does someone who actually, I kind of think maybe you're the best type of person then to run a team building company and to write a book about the experiences we can have in life that make us closer to the people that we spend a lot of time with.

[Ben Swire]

Yeah. I mean, that's. It is ironic that this is what I do now. It's sort of God's joke on me. Gonna make you very shy. Gonna make you an introvert. And now you will lead games with strangers that are skeptical.

[Jenny Eric]

Yes, very skeptical. I am totally that personality. I go into the situation like, I am not gonna like this. I am not gonna participate. It's like I'm kind of like a jerk. I'm like, how can adult and be so like viscerally against. So that is a really tricky audience.

[Ben Swire]

It is. But you know, I've ended up doing this because I've seen the impact of it. I've seen it work and I've been sort of won over by it myself. And I think it really appeals to me because it is a piece that has been missing in my life, you know, that I really do crave connection and meaningful connection. That's part of being an introvert. I just. I don't have a lot of time for small talk. I really want to get to know people. If I'm going to spend time with them, I want it to be meaningful. So all of this grew out of that sort of drive. It all happened because I switched jobs. Ironically, I used to. I spent a good decade in financial marketing on Wall street because. Well, because. But then I had an opportunity to go to this design firm called Ideo that it was like going from Kansas into Oz. It was just this Technicolor place of where people were motivated not by bribery or fear, which most organizations lean into. One of the two of those. This was a place that was motivated by trust and vulnerability and creativity and where everybody's voice was welcome and respected. And it was just. I fell in love with the place and I started this series of what I thought of as sort of creative play dates, as a way to strengthen that culture and keep it going. Because I do love to play. I love games. Especially once I had my kids. It reminded me of how much fun it is to just be on the floor and roll around and take risks and all that. It all came together at the same time. But these activities at work were with grownups, and it was an opportunity for us to turn off our analytic brains and get a little wild and creative. But really what it was was a chance to practice this emotional muscle memory of trusting, of vulnerability, of taking risks. Because I've been through enough cultures where they hand out bullet points of these are our corporate values, and start doing this and do that, and all that does is waste paper. Those things have to be felt. They have to be experienced. And that's what I found doing these workshops. And that's where safe danger came out of it was this realization that when you give people an opportunity to step outside of their comfort zone, but make it safe for them to do that, find that balance between safety and danger, that's when they see, oh, I like this. Oh, there's a lot to be gained from it. You know, it all. It actually, it did come out of my parenting this sort of insight and experience. I remember really clearly my. My daughter was five or so, and we were. She wanted to do the ring. The rings at the playground, the big rings where all the big kids were going. And she'd spent, you know, half of her life staring up at these rings. And today was the day she was really going to do it. And she got up there and she froze. She looked down. You know, it was like vertigo. You know, I'm sure it was just the most terrifying thing. And she backed away. And so what I did is I took her to the middle of the rings, and I lifted her up and had her hold on. And then I told her to drop, just let go and took a little convincing. But then she did, and she landed and she popped back up. And I said, that's as bad as it's going to get. And she was like, huh, okay. And from then on, she was willing to go and do it because she'd experienced what she was afraid of, and she realized she could survive it. And it's that key little piece of insight that I took back and I put it into these workshops, but made it an emotional risk. Just take a little bit. This is as bad as it's going to be. You're going to have to volunteer something. You're going to have to risk something, and then they can see that it's going to be received with kindness, that people are generally nice, that most people are starved for connection and just don't know how to make it happen. And if you give them a chance, we'll embrace it.

[Jenny Eric]

It's an interesting book because you have the insight behind why it works and why it's needed. But then you also have all these activities, so they're woven into the chapters, but then they're also a bunch listed at the end as well. How do you go from financial marketing to this?

[Ben Swire]

Well, I'm a bit of a creative platypus. I think I've just made up of lots of different parts that don't always fit together normally, but in my case, they did. And financial marketing was a way to pay for my graduate school and all the things that I wanted to learn. And then I went to ideo. And this was a place that really.

It showed me what work could be like if you're really welcomed for who you are. You know, most places, most companies that I always worked for, they celebrate you for what you do. You succeed, you do. This idea was a place where they celebrated you for who you were. And that feeling, you know, I walked in and I think I'd been there 10 minutes before they asked me to write. I was writing a pitch deck for a really big client. It was a big thing. And I did what I've been trained to do, which is I asked for examples of past things so I could get ideo's voice and do it correctly. And the woman that hired me sort of looked at me and said, however you write it, that's our voice. You are our voice.

[Jenny Eric]

You've been there for like six minutes.

[Ben Swire]

And that's. They had hired me not to fit in, but to help them grow. And that really threw me because when I'd been in corporate life, you know, I counted once, to send out A postcard required 60 pairs of eyes to look at that text first and make sure it was compliant and approved. And the fingerprints had been. You know, everybody had a feeling about it, and they all needed to justify their jobs. And then I went to this place where they hired you because they trusted you. They wanted your insight, they wanted you to be you. It was like night and day. It just. It flipped a switch in me that realized, oh, this is possible. You can do really good work. You can do better work. When you're surrounded by people who are willing to offer up their ideas, even though you may not understand them or you might disagree with them. And the key, I think, was this sense of trust that they developed. And it was because they approached everything with curiosity. So if they disagreed, it wasn't so much about trying to win an argument. It was about trying to win over the person. And to do that, you had to understand where they were coming from. So you would ask, why. Tell me more about this. You know, this is where I'm getting lost. Help me understand it. And it just changed the entire dynamic. And I think it's. It's another piece of what I think is so valuable about stepping outside of our comfort zones, about rubbing up against other viewpoints that's, I think, gotten lost. And then the pendulum is swinging back the other direction. I think it's a really. It's a weird moment right now for this, this B balance. But it does feel like for a lot of certainly working life, people have confused comfort with safety. I've seen that also with parenting. You know, people try to protect their kids from any sort of friction and any sort of thing. And I think that, you know, comfort is. It's about removing friction. It's about making everything, you know, calm and even. But real safety isn't about taking out the risk. It's about creating enough trust and confidence in yourself that you know, you can survive what's going to come and you feel safe stepping out. I think that's a big piece of what I'm hoping to teach my kids. You know, it's not that I'm trying to make the world safe for them. I'm trying to make their lives safe enough that they can explore it.

[Jenny Eric]

Yeah. Does the company still exist?

[Ben Swire]

Ideo?

[Jenny Eric]

Yeah.

[Ben Swire]

Yes, it does. It's been around for about 30 years. It is just an innovative, magical wonderland.

[Jenny Eric]

So interesting. I've really never heard that. You know, we welcome you for who you are, not what you can do. Because you kind of think, well, that's what you're supposed to do at a company. You're there to do, do, do. But I just read a book by this man named Tim Elmore, and it's about Gen Z and Gen Z entering the workforce. And they, like, don't want to feel like they're cog in the machine. So he's trying to, like, teach people how to value them and, you know, have meals together. And, you know, you said in your book Safe Danger, you spend more time with your co workers throughout your life often than you do with your own family. So it is really a perspective change. I. I've never really heard of that, that you're gonna come. I mean, you think it's so different, you know, like your whole thought of, like, well, tell me what is, you know, what is. How does the company usually position themselves? They're like, whatever.

You know, it's like you've been there for 15 years, so that is just wild. And, and they're still around, they're still kicking, so. So it must be working. You, you have this thing where you said, and this is what I was curious about. You say you did bi weekly events that you called creative Playdates while you were at ideo. Was that what they hired you to.

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[Ben Swire]

Absolutely not. No, they hired me as a writer, so I was there to exist as a writer. Both writing things, but also thinking as a writer. So ido's job, ido's purpose was to help companies sort of think creatively when they couldn't figure out their own problems. You know, they, they were stuck in their ways and they'd have an unsolvable problem. They would come to IDEO and we would do that. IDEO's one of their big claims to fame is 30 years ago, Steve Jobs came to them and said, I want a new way of interacting with a computer. And I don't. I can't quite figure out how to make it work. And they designed the first mouse, and.

[Jenny Eric]

Now we're all addicted to our iPhones.

[Ben Swire]

Well, they designed the first mouse, so, you know, it's a stepping stone until the, to the current addiction. But they've redesigned, you know, standing toothpaste is one of their things. They were, what they were really about was going and talking to people and listening to them and understanding them, as opposed to coming up with new ideas in a boardroom and telling people what they wanted. It was more about going and spending time with them and watching them, you know, pay their bills and see how they do things. And, you know that one of the things that ideo, a friend of mine was on the team that did it, they went and they watched people write their checks to their credit card companies. And they noticed that people kept rounding up, paying the car, you know, even if it was a couple of cents, they would round up. Because in their heads, they thought they were getting ahead somehow. They weren't. The credit card company didn't matter. And so what they did is they were working with a bank at that time, and they started this savings program where the bank would automatically round up anything and put it into a savings account. So you actually were helping yourself. But all that came from going and watching people do things. And ideo's approach to teaming stuff is, is another thing that I found really amazing, which is they would put people, you know, it would be a project about.

I don't know, it would be an automotive project, something like that. But the team would be made up of a geologist, an architect, a writer, a photographer, people with different points of view and perspectives so they could all look at the same problem from a different lens. And then those ideas could ping pong off of each other. And so this idea really stuck with me of how valuable it is to make space for other people's opinions. That, you know, when you have a corporate culture or a department or a business where everybody just does what the boss says and it's homogeneous and everybody agrees, that can be very comfortable. But you're missing out, you're missing out on all the insights that aren't yours. And that's the point of working with people, is to, to see what they see that you have missed. Huh?

[Jenny Eric]

I've got a big swing and a miss over here that I don't use standing toothpaste. I guess I didn't really realize that was a thing, but we had this, this like, fidgety toy, one of those, like, blobby type toys, you know, that kids have and it burst and someone like, put it. It's like they got it all over my sink. Now my sink is super sticky. I haven't cleaned it yet. So I'm like, if I had standing toothpaste, that would be better for my life. But interesting.

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[Jenny Eric]

Where did the creative play dates come from then? Is that something that you just did on your own?

[Ben Swire]

It was something that I. We were doing great things for our clients. They would come in and we would do all these sort of wonderful activities to open up their minds and help them see things differently. And I just realized that we deserved that, too. So I took the time and I started pulling from things that I was fascinated by. So everything from. From sand mandalas to Rorschach tests to holograms, painting, Kintsuki, you know, different cultures and their art things. And I would pull it in. But very quickly, what became clear was that the ones that resonated the most were things that both were fun and creative in their own rights, but where they had an element of personal investment in it, where people were talking about why, why this, why that, where this is coming from. So, you know, for example, we would do a Halloween activity where I would get everybody. We would have these sort of paper masks, and I would say, okay, I want you to think about, you know, it's Halloween. It's about scaring things, scary people, scary stuff. I want you to think about the time you scared yourself the most, a time when you were really. You behaved in a way that you are now embarrassed by. You can't believe you did that, you know, and so people came up with things like, you know, shouting at somebody on the, you know, road rage, or when they were kids stealing their siblings candy or their silver dollars from their grandfather or whatever it was. But then we made that into masks, and they told the story through the masks, and they sort of embodied it and they lived it and they put it on, and it became a way for then people to Exorcise these things that they've been carrying around. And so they had, we had masks of sort of wild manes and we had masks that were all trees and bushes and, you know, different stories. But it, by turning the stories into giving them a metaphoric form, it allowed people to tell these stories in a really emotional way, to unlock stuff and to share with each other who they'd been and who they want. And what that did was it wasn't just an opportunity to make a mask and tell a story, but it telegraphed to everybody what your values were. You know, if I'm really embarrassed that I yelled at somebody for getting in my way at the subway, what you hear from that? Not just that I blew it, but that that's how I consider myself to have slipped, that I value politeness and kindness and patience and all that stuff. And so people really found that they were learning a lot about each other. And the more you understand what's driving a person personally, I think the stronger your professional relationship can be because when you disagree, you can see it as a difference of priorities rather than of personalities. When you offer up a critique, you can trust that this person really wants the best for you and your work because you know them and they know you and you like each other, you know, and you can ask for help without worrying that you're imposing on them. And they can know that you're asking for help because you really respect them and it's an honor. All that comes when you really understand each other as people rather than just as professionals, just as the roles and responsibilities that you're supposed to play.

[Jenny Eric]

It is wild that adults do this together and at work. But you can see how it would be really beneficial. I mean, you, you are doing incredible things with your coworkers. You're solving problems. You talk about how there's not a lot of sel care. And now you do this as a full time job outside of ideo. You have your own company. It's called make believe work. So you do team building for different companies. So people are interested in that. I'll make sure, I'll put that in the show notes because you get phenomenal feedback. Even though on the surface people are like. But you, you make a really compelling point and I like this one a lot about how, I mean, there's always a. Some sort of a culture of something that happens at a workplace. So I remember when I was growing up, my dad worked for this company and they would do a summer picnic and I really liked it because they would A bounce house. And all the kids got a present. It was like in the middle of the summer. And he only worked for that company for, like, two years. And I was like, darn, you know, I really like that. And the family was allowed to come, but normally, you know, it's like, go have a party or a golf outing. And what you said was, and I thought this was something I wouldn't have ever considered on my own. You said that forms of entertainment do little more than pass the time. So many forms of entertainment. So you got trivia night, or, you know, you've got, you know, whatever, this outing. And you're like, okay, you know, it's kind of fun, but if you add a little bit of risk to it and the person is allowed to grow through that activity, then it becomes a more meaningful experience. And it goes from passing the time to feeling like it's worth the time. So you wrote connection takes more. And this is good advice for parents, too, actually. Connection takes more than just sharing the same space or experience, no matter how fun that experience may be in the moment. It's about growth. I mean, right? Because you think, oh, we did this, we did that. But if you. Yeah, I think about our own family's moments outdoors. You know, we've had a lot of fun times. But if there was an element of challenge there, that's certainly one that connects you more.

[Ben Swire]

That's the stuff that lingers. You know, it's the stuff that you do with your family where somebody did something for the first time, they stepped out of their comfort zone. Your kid, you know, they. They grew in some way, or you showed them something that you'd forgotten about yourself. It's also the same with the conversations that we have with our friends. You know, the late night conversations that really, when you open up and you let your guard down, that's the stuff that really cements a connection. And so, yeah, I mean, what we do, you know, we. We don't turn the workplace into a sleepover. I mean, that's. That's not the goal. But giving people a chance to do something together where, you know, there basically, there are three filters that we use when we're designing our activities. And one of the main ones is that we don't want it to surface old news. We don't want it to be something where the loud people get loud, the quiet people get quiet, and then everybody just goes home and goes back to work. You know, they have to learn something new about each other so that the value of the time together doesn't end when the time ends that they're being given tools or insights that can grow when they go back to work that they now understand. You know, if Jenny is a stickler on all the I's and t's, now you understand, oh, she came from a military family. That's where her value set is. And that's really important to her. Now I know how to talk to her about this, you know, and we, we have an understanding that's different than just, oh God, you can't get anything past her. You know, we. The other thing that I think a lot of activities and a lot of bonding things I think mistakenly lean into is competition. You know, competition is a really fun way to get people excited and they're pulse up and they wave their hands and that's great for what it is. But if your goal is meaningful connection between people in an authentic way, competition inherently divides people. It pits them against each other. It encourages them to show off and to, you know, trash talk. And then most people lose. So if your goal is for them to get comfortable, drop their guard and show up and as their full selves, competition isn't the way to do it. And I think that also really sticks with families and kids and dynamics between them too. You know, I don't think. I'm not big on participation trophies for everybody. That's not what I'm advocating. But I do think there's great value in coming up with activities where everybody can contribute and feel proud of their participation, feel proud of what they've added to it, and in a way that, you know, really build something memorable between you. So for us, we lean into play.

[Jenny Eric]

Yeah. Yes, Play. Yeah. And just good old fashioned play that is open ended and doesn't have a competitive element to it and is not passive. That's another one you talk about. So that we're not just being entertained by something, but that. That we're really growing through it. Do you think this is more important than it used to be? Because you talk about how there's less distinction between personal life and business life, or maybe there should be less distinction. That actually is like something that I think I grew up like in a different era where it was like, you know, you kind of leave your personal life at home and your business life is your business life. But we're in this loneliness epidemic and you talk about how it's half of Americans and there's a lot that's going on in the workplace, like quiet quitting and then employees really do want to have this feeling that they're cared about. You had some pretty strong statistics in here too. Organizations with a strong emphasis on employees and make four times the average profit of those who do not prioritize the well being of their workforce. You and your job are not enemies. Is this a new way of thinking? I'm kind of pretty, I've been out of the workforce for a long time.

[Ben Swire]

I think it's, it's a really strange conflict there, which is all the stats say the happier your people are, the better the work is going to be.

[Sponsor Voice 1]

Yeah.

[Ben Swire]

And the more connected they are, the happier they are. And yet we all, I think, really still stick with a scarcity mentality, a fear mentality, that if you're not telling people what to do and watching them carefully and doing it the way, you know, nose to the grindstone, then you're doing it wrong. You're missing opportunities that everybody needs to go, go, go, go, go. This is about profit, so let's only focus on profit.

[Sponsor Voice 1]

Yeah.

[Ben Swire]

And yet the stats show that the people, the companies that focus on people first and profit next actually profit more. And that's really counterintuitive. And it's also a small sampling because most places do it the old fashioned way. They're ruthless and they, they ask for loyalty, but they offer none. They want people to be collaborative, but they only reward the successful ones. So they want you to take risks, but if you get it wrong, there's the door. So there's a real conflict between what they're looking for and, and how they're hoping to get it, I think.

And that's really unfortunate. The distinction that you're talking about between work life and home life, I think is a real, is a really valid one. And I think it's individual lots. I mean, I've worked in, in lots of different ways and being able to turn off the work self at five and go home, that's lovely. What I discovered at ideo, and that's, it's sort of what allowed me to see what was possible, was that those people, because I knew them so well, they became family to some degree. I've, I left IDO five, six years ago and those people are still some of my closest friends. One of them is tutoring my child.

You know, and when I was there, that boundary went both ways. It wasn't just that IDEO was stealing from family time or something because I was working late, my family was actually welcomed in. They, they asked my, I think Quinn was nine. They asked my nine year old to come in once a week and be an intern.

[Jenny Eric]

Wow, that's innovative and brilliant. It's brilliant.

[Ben Swire]

It was, it was magical because they figured if we can explain this to a 9 year old, then everybody's going to get it. And if the 9 year old has questions that we aren't explaining, we should explain those. And they would ask for suggestions and then they would just remove the dinosaurs and robots from Quinn's suggestions. But it was a way of really shaking things up. And that also really impacted my kids. They grew up seeing adults playing. They grew up seeing adults not being afraid of failing, of learning from it, of owning up to their mistakes and saying, you know, why they made them and where they learned and what they would do differently. It wasn't, you know, I think one of the weird things is that so many of us cloak ourselves in a sense of adulthood that was formulated when we were kids from the outside looking in, and we're really hesitant to let go of that. But I do feel like there's a great value. You know, we're missing out on so much. So much play, so much exploration, so much experimentation, so much wonder because we're busy being the adults we think we're supposed to be.

[Jenny Eric]

But you know, what a remarkable thing for kids to see. Well, really even just to see. For kids to see adults at all. Because I think so often they're siphoned off from, from the adult world of work. So that would be a really impactful experience for them. But also, yeah, I mean, a kid would be like, I would like that stand up toothpaste thing, please. That would be really helpful for me in my life. That's. I've never heard of any of this, so I'm glad to have read it. The book is called Safe Danger.

[Sponsor Voice 1]

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[Jenny Eric]

One of the things that you talk about. Well, it's really seven things are these seven qualities of safe danger. And you use this phrase. I really like this phrase, Ben. It's called experiential understanding, which is something that's missing a lot these days because we're on screen so much.

[Ben Swire]

Yeah.

[Jenny Eric]

So you talk about how these seven qualities that help you to be more of yourself. You say most people are living someone else's life, they're following other people's rules. We're actively trying to hide the unique parts of ourself. We've forgotten who we are. So these seven qualities, they require doing, they require practice. And we think we understand them, but we really don't, you know, not as much as we think we do. So you're talking in this book about joy, vulnerability, curiosity, optimism, connection, trust and creativity. I would love to focus on two or three of them. That really stuck out to me. Optimism was high on my list though, because goodness is it a rapidly changing world? It's kind of scary out there is a lot of pessimism. And you said this statement that I have never heard of before and found to be very.

I already said thought provoking so many times so I need to come up with A better word. But I, I read this statement of yours, I never heard it, and I was like, oh, my goodness. And I start spinning it around in my mind, like, is that true? Is that what I really think? Okay, here's the statement. Pessimism is repackaged fear. Pessimism is fear as a lifestyle. I read two statements, but they were both in there. I don't know if I would have. I would have just said pessimism is negativity is, I guess, probably what I would have said. But you say pessimism is repackaged fear. It's fear as a lifestyle. Can you help unpack that for us?

[Ben Swire]

Yeah, I mean, I think negativity works too. For me. Fear is just more visceral. And I think pessimism comes from a very deep place of assuming the worst, of thinking that things are out of your control, of thinking that you're not good enough. All that stuff comes from, I think, deep insecurities, deep fear of what the world is going to do to you and the people that you love. And so it's, it's, it encourages you to protect yourself, to lock yourself away, to huddle. And I think optimism, far from being the sort of naive, fluffy, half glass, full thing, real optimism, I think is earned. It's earned from experiences that you've been through and you've seen. I survived this, I can do it again. You know, I've, I've lost my job before. I survived, I got another one. I know how to do this. And I think that optimism is what gets us through those dark moments. And it's a. There is a big distinction that they've. This. Psychologists and people have studied between optimists and pessimists in terms of what they take responsibility for. Pessimists tend to feel that they don't have any control over the things that are being done to them, that they're only responsible for sort of the bad things that happen. Optimists tend to think the other way. They think, oh, I can get myself out of this hole. And, you know, the, the hole that I stepped into is one in a million. As opposed to a pessimist who says, oh, there are holes everywhere. And I think it's a really, it's a hard perspective to hold on to, especially when things are changing around you or being done to you and things do feel out of your control. But the people that I admire the most, and you know, that I know that have been through it, are people that have taken, that have weathered those waves and those shocks and those things that life throws at all of us, but done it with a way like, oh, okay, this wave knocked me down, but I know how to swim. And I'm going to take a breath. I just have to hold my breath for a little bit longer and there will be air. And that patience comes from a place of. Of courage, of confidence, which to me is sort of the opposite of fear.

[Jenny Eric]

And even, like, you might like to swim.

I like to swim.

[Ben Swire]

It does make us stronger and it gets you to new places.

[Jenny Eric]

I just talked to somebody about this, so I hope that these two podcast episodes don't go back to back, but if they do, then people are going to have to just deal with it. There's this website, it's called deathclock.com and I. I learned about it from somebody else, maybe Michael Easter, but it's called Death Clock. And you can go on, and you can type in your age, your age, your gender, your bmi, which I fudged a little bit. And also when you were born, you type in those things and then it's going to tell you your estimated death date, you know, so you can be a little bit more intentional about your life. And there's only one other factor. So it's. It's your gender, your age. I already said that age is determined from when you were born. So it's your gender, your age. What else did I already say? Your gender and your age, your bmi. Oh, and then it's asking if you smoke or drink. Do you smoke or drink? The only other thing it asks you is basically what your outlook on life. It's using these same words. So the choices are pessimist, optimist, neutral, or suicidal. And so if I put in the different factors and I put in pessimist, it says, I'm going to live till I'm 75. If I put in the same factors and put in optimistic, it says, I'm going to live till I'm 96. What? That's 21 more years, Ben.

[Ben Swire]

It's amazing the impact that your outlook has on things, but not just because being. I think it's. It's also because if you're an optimist, you're going to live a different life during those years, those 96 years. You're going to take more chances, you're going to make more connections, you're going to lean into your purpose and believe that it can happen because that's your approach to things. And so life will be worth living. I think that's a big piece of why that stat, which is so amazing, is so stark. You know, I think there's a degree of feeling that, that you're adding something to the world and that the world is worth being in. And that takes. That can. You know, I don't know of anybody that's able to maintain that point of view consistently because life goes up and down. But if that's the general through line, if you can just bring yourself back to that, or at the very least, you know, there are these, you know, the, there's meditation techniques where you just start noticing things. So you distance yourself from. You just say something like, oh, there I go being pessimistic again. You don't necessarily have to stop being pessimistic, but in doing that, you distance yourself from the thing. You, you don't think of yourself as a pessimist. You are just someone who is being pessimistic. And that gives you some wiggle room to think, I can change, I could change that. What might. How might I look at this differently? What might. That cheery person that annoys me. How might they look at it? Okay, I can see some reason in that. And you begin to shift.

[Jenny Eric]

I think this is super important. And this day and age that we live in, it's like, well, the kids that we're raising might have a lot of different jobs and they're going to have probably a lot of change in their life. And so optimism can really see them through. So you talk about how optimism can be learned and you say to foster resilience, inspire optimism. Resilience in the face of defeat is one of the most powerful qualities a person can bring to the table. But it's hard to practice. So you say, consider inviting more failure into your life, but that's hard. And so a lot of these activities that you do, they put people in, you know, somewhat vulnerable positions. And, you know, you're going to make your mask or you're going to do your different things and you gotta.

It helps to have an out, better outlook on how they turn out. It just gives people opportunity, I guess, to have this experiential understanding which they may not have if, you know, they. In this day and age, you grow up and do a lot on screens, people are not out on the playground, like your daughter, you know, and trying and trying again and getting up on the rings and that type of thing. So that was one of the seven. Another one was vulnerability. And you talked, I mean, which is a interesting word to use in the realm of work, because actually I would, I Felt like at work, I was so guarded when I worked. I mean, that was like the name of the game. Although I was vulnerable with this one co worker I had named Lisa. But that was it. I mean, everybody else, and maybe Monica, but like everybody else, I was just kind of like, you know, you kind of feel like they're out to get you when you're. I was a teacher and in that environment, you are really pushed to be status quo because it's not a good look. Like if the kids want to be in your class and not the other person's class. Ezra is really tricky. I was not expecting the level of politics to.

[Sponsor Voice 1]

To occur.

[Jenny Eric]

And, you know, you're like, oh, I'm.

[Sponsor Voice 1]

Just here for the kids.

[Jenny Eric]

You're like, no, there's a lot more going on. The vulnerability is not necessarily a word that I would have used, but I can see the benefit of it. And especially as think people are lonely and we are spending a lot of time with our co workers. But you said this incredible sentence. You said, every great leader I've worked with. So you think about leaders. You're like, oh, they're just trying to make another dollar off the work I'm doing. You are. Every great leader I've worked with has helped me understand myself better and inspired me to find new ways that I could contribute to the team beyond my job description. That is hard.

[Ben Swire]

That's what makes someone a great leader, I think. But they. They did it by seeing more than just the job description. Yeah, you know, I think vulnerability is really hard. We work with. We actually do a number of workshops frequently with. With teachers, with schools.

[Jenny Eric]

How do they go?

[Ben Swire]

They're amazing because the. The teachers have this dual set of a. They're used to play and metaphor and doing that sort of thing. They're used to activities, but they're not used to doing it themselves.

[Jenny Eric]

That's true.

[Ben Swire]

And so putting them in that position, they know what's supposed to happen, but now all of a sudden they're feeling it and I do. You know, vulnerability at work, regardless of whether you're a teacher or whatever, is the value comes not from exposing yourself and leaving you yourself at everybody's mercy. It comes from being able to own your own story, to celebrate everything that you bring to the table. So, you know, my own story with this, of realizing it was. I was. I was on a team and I was. We were designing an activity for a conference. And I, as an introvert and shy person, loathe conferences. This, you know, it's. It's Just all about exchanging business cards and establishing your value in 11 seconds. And it is just what I, I hate. But I was on a team that invited that sort of vulnerability. And I said, look, you know, I've got clinical depression, I've got years of introvert. I've got all this stuff. This is my nightmare. And we started talking about that and from that we extracted and we sort of ended up with a place where like, well, what if we could make this the most introvert friendly thing? What, what do you want from a gathering of people that are great in their industry? What I want is the truth. I want to know the secrets that they're holding back. I want to know the things that really bug them that they could never stay say during the keynote because they get fired. That's what I want to know. So we created this sort of anonymized secret. It was very get smart, if you remember that there was a phone booth that they would pick up the phone and there was a secret hidden thing and it invited them to write. What is it that you can't say out loud in this room? What is the secret sauce that no one will admit to? What is the magic problem that needs to be solved that we can't? You know, all that and people loved was like the center of gravity. They would sidle up and they'd write their thing and then they'd leave and it would show up on this screen and people wrote everything from, you know, I need more art in my life. Someone wrote, my job is to lie to the right people. Another person said, look, we're all dying. Why are we wasting time not doing what we love? Much like your death clock. But all of that came out at a conference that, that was basically about for city managers, which, you know, it was not what they expected from this time together. And yet there was always a crowd around these screens looking to see what was going to be said next because they were hungry for something real. But that all came because I was vulnerable and opened up and let people see parts of me that I had been told to keep quiet. You know, I think anybody that's been through middle school, but I think most of much of childhood is a, about the crush of conformity. It's about sort of sanding down the edges that stick out.

[Sponsor Voice 1]

Yeah.

[Ben Swire]

And you know, as a, as a parent and, you know, of kids, I find that the real, the balance that I worry about most is when am I guiding them towards, you know, the best life they can have and when should I be letting them Be themselves, you know, their, their natural tendencies. I don't want to stifle who they are, but I also don't want to leave them unprepared for the world. And finding that balance of when to teach and when to listen and when to learn as a parent is, is really, I think, important and tricky, but I think it also plays into what so much of us have lost over time. That's what I mean when I say we're living someone else's life. We've been told what, you know, if we're a, if we work in a, you know, an appliance store, we know what those people look like. If we are a marketer, we know what those people look like. And we try to be those people. But why, why not, you know, why can't you be yourself? And to be yourself, I think it is so much more rewarding and fun and satisfying for you. But I also just think it brings so much more richness to the people around you, to the people you love, the people you work with, all of that.

[Sponsor Voice 1]

Yeah.

[Jenny Eric]

The crush of conformity is such interesting and spot on wording. Spot on. And even more so, even more so than it was in middle school in the 70s and the 80s and the 90s. Now you throw on social media. I was talking to this young man earlier today's named Sean Killingsworth and he's is 23 years old and he's really big on the fact that his childhood was in adolescence since we're burnt to the ground because every environment has phones. And he's like, you can't be yourself and you can't. You might get videotaped and the whole world is a stage. You're gonna go to the beach and all you're thinking about is what am I gonna post about this? He's like, it's the worst. It's so awful. So, you know, tack that on. I mean, it is a crushing weight of conformity for sure. So this vulnerability. You had a sentence in here by Anne Lamott, who I love animat, but I haven't. I must not have read this book of hers where she says forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past. Oh, wow.

[Sponsor Voice 2]

Yeah.

[Ben Swire]

That's one of those statements that I carry around with me. And it's hard to accept, but it's true. You know, if you've been through something, if something has, if you are on the receiving end of something that you wish hadn't happened, if you wish you could go back and change something that you did, all of that. That so many of us carry around with us.

[Jenny Eric]

Y.

[Ben Swire]

Realizing that if you want to move forward, that's what it means. Giving up all hope of a better past.

[Jenny Eric]

Yeah.

[Ben Swire]

When I read that, what I was struck by was how. I mean, it's common sense, but how strongly I fought against it, how I just. Nope. There is a big part of me that just leans into that magical thinking of somehow there's a way that I can. If I think about it enough, I can fix it. There's some part of me that is stuck in that. And so that's. That's a piece of just, you know, being human and letting that go and. And moving forward.

[Jenny Eric]

So much to think about, especially when we consider that these are experiential, understanding qualities that we develop. So as parents and as teachers, as those who work with children and really for ourselves, we're wanting to cultivate joy and vulnerability and curiosity and optimism and connection and trust and creativity. How to prepare for the unknown. At its heart, creativity is all about dealing with the unknown. You wrote. And trust, even trusting play. So all this is in this book, Safe Danger. You talk about joy, how people who are in a good mood are 31, more productive even than those who are in a neutral mood.

[Ben Swire]

It's amazing.

[Jenny Eric]

Oh, that's a big difference.

[Ben Swire]

The stats out there are really. It's baffling that people aren't out there trying to make everybody, all their workers happy, their employees and their colleagues, because it's just. It's amazing the impact it has.

[Jenny Eric]

Yeah. Think about our kids. Our kids are not necessarily in a good mood. They're kind of in crummy moods. They've got all this work to do, you know, Know, it's like they're. They're squashed with like, all of the crush, with all of the expectations on their lives. People in a good mood are 31% more productive than those in neutral or bad moods. And joy primes the brain for peak performance, and happiness helps our brain grow. Often the biggest obstacle to bringing more joy to our lives is ourselves. So in a business setting, you talk about how the people who have the hardest time with this are middle managers because they are kind of stuck. They're the ones who are like, get. You need the output. And they've got limited resources and limited time. Often the higher ups will, like, give lip service to, like, yeah, it would be great if everyone's more joyful, more creative, but really it's. It's the ones that are having to walk it out that might have a hard Time. Because then people are going to say, well, what did you use the budget for? Why'd you do that? But this book would help. If you're a middle manager and you're wanting to improve the quality of your workplace, this book, Safe Danger, will help. Tons of different ideas. Let's just talk about a few of them. I'll tell you about some of the ones that I was like. I would maybe do that. Okay, yes. Like you. I was.

[Sponsor Voice 1]

You know, you made.

[Jenny Eric]

You brought up such a good point of like, you're. You're often thinking at these things. If I. I just wish I was home with my family. So if you. It really matters to try and offer people opportunities to grow in their life. And if you can take that time and do something just slightly different with it, then people are going to find value and it's going to increase the productivity, but also the enjoyment of the workplace. Okay, so there was a couple different options. It's like at the very end of the book, you have a whole list of activities. So you have your company, Make Believe Works. I said that correct?

[Sponsor Voice 1]

Yep.

[Ben Swire]

Make Believe Works.

[Jenny Eric]

Make Believe Works, which is a great title. And it works for this podcast because we got a bunch of families where the kids are playing Make Believe. You want to kind of stick with it throughout your life. So you're doing team building activities. And so there's a bunch of activities in the Backup the book. But then at the end, one of them is just take a nap.

I was like, I like that idea. But then at the end of each chapter, there was like these little habits, and it was like habits that you could do for five minutes. Can you add some skills to your life? Can you get a new app, you know, and learn for five minutes a day, learn a new language, learn how to knit. I thought that that was actually a really cool idea. You know, learn how to code, Try.

[Sponsor Voice 1]

Something completely new, just a little bit.

[Jenny Eric]

Give yourself five minutes a day. But the one that stuck out to me the most at the. That came at the end of the chapters, which was New Habits, was this idea of picking the third thing on the menu. This was from your uncle. Will you tell us about that?

[Ben Swire]

Yeah, Uncle Herb was this wild impressionist painter. He had a. This curly blonde head of hair that he looked like a scarecrow. And he was just the most fun to be around. He was just just walking, Joy. And part of his. His purpose in life was to surprise himself. That was what he found. Great value. And that's why he painted. That's why he went around looking for new things. That's why he talked to people. The whole point was finding, you know, what's the unexpected. And so, you know, I was a kid and I, you know, I ate three things. It was. And they were all revolved around hot dogs. But he was like, nope, this is what we're going to do today. And if you, if it's gross and disgusting, let's talk about it. And so he would get, you know, we would go to these restaurants and it was just the third thing. And it was, you know, it might be shrimp cocktail or it might be, you know, tamales and whatever it was. And I would say most of the time with Herb, he found something to like about it. He also found something to talk about. He would say, this sauce is much too spicy for me, but under as something really fun. And everybody would always take a taste. And it just changed the whole dynamic of the meal. And it wasn't about just satisfying yourself, it was about adventure.

[Jenny Eric]

I love this idea because I'm the worst. First of all, I'm the worst at ordering at restaurants. I always pick something that I don't like and I just. Or if I pick like the same thing that everyone's like, mom, you always get a hamburger. But then if I pick something else, I'm like, I didn't like it. So I, I want to try this. I think this is a fun idea. Uncle Herb was a wild haired, impressionistic painter and he went through a phase where wherever we went out to eat, he would always just pick the third thing on the menu. The third sandwich, the third ice cream flavor, the third cocktail. Whatever was on offer, he just picked the third one. Sometimes it was boring or disappointing, but then he'd talk about what was missing or off. And we discussed why we liked it, what we liked and why. But of course, plenty of times he come across a surprise gem he would have never picked for himself. He said it was totally worth all the disappointments to discover this new treasure. So that was a fun idea. A little bit of randomness that is sprinkled into this book. Safe, Danger. And then at the back you have a lot more activities. And. And also those are in the book too, like in. They're sectioned off of things that you might do in the workplace. So.

I, like, made a note, like, I would like this one. This one I would be hesitant about. I liked the idea though, of presenting under pressure. So let's talk about that one before we wrap it up. I thought that I kind of, I do kind of like Improv. And you said, thinking on your feet is a muscle. So you're presented with a slide deck that you've never seen, and now you got to go present it for five minutes as if you know what you're talking about. I think that would be pretty fun.

[Ben Swire]

Yeah. And I am somebody that always loved the idea of improv but would never do it. But I think a big piece of that is because I'm afraid of how many possibilities there are. It's the paralysis of choice. I wouldn't know which one to choose or what to do. So the reason that I was comfortable with this sort of activity is that while it does require improv, it does require making things up. There are constraints. You're working with a deck that's been put together ahead of time, hopefully by somebody that's thoughtful. Thoughtful. And I've got some instructions in there about, you know, different ways to do it. But, you know, if it's a. It can. If it's a lion and then it's a fire, and then it's an, you know, a wicked angel or something. It gives you something to, you know, to. To work with that you can begin to find and project. Especially if, like, if the goal is, you know, one of the things you can do is say, okay, this is your life story. But you don't get to choose the slides. And so there's, you know, a graph, and you can look at it. And what is that? This graph is my sense of confidence as I went into middle school. And you can see right here is the plummet. That's when Gemma Hironuma told me, no, I won't go with you to the thing, but here, up here is my. When I got the A and the whatever it is. But it allows you a structure to improv against. And it is a muscle to stand up in front of people and be able to think on your feet.

[Sponsor Voice 1]

Yeah.

[Ben Swire]

Especially for introverts. It's something that we tend to avoid. And so being able to do that and be coherent, it does. It takes practice, but gentle practice.

[Jenny Eric]

Tell us about a story or two that you've gotten feedback or something that really stuck out to you from trainings that you've done.

[Ben Swire]

Well.

One of the. One of my most. I think the most valuable activities we do and the one that I would have run from the most, is one called moving stories. And so with moving stories, what we do is we ask everybody to think about their process, what it feels like on the inside of going from being blocked and frustrated to being inspired and Getting it. What is that feeling like for you and people? And we first we have them draw it out. So first, you know, some people it'll be an ekg.

[Jenny Eric]

It's like totally like my nightmare. I'm so intrigued because you talk about like you found a way to make it work. You just interrupted but like dry. And I'd be like, I just want to be home with my kids.

[Ben Swire]

Well, the drawing is, it's open ended. You can, it can be a toy tornado, it can be an ekg, it could be a lightning bolt. What is it? Whatever it looks like. The horror, the, the cold, the blood running cold moment is the next one when I say, okay, now I want you to tell that story of going from being blocked to being inspired with movement, with your body, no, in a dance, at which point everybody looks for the door, groans or whatever. But again, this is one that I initially designed it in collaboration with somebody else and I've taken it farther since then, but it was something that pushed me way out of my comfort zone. But I design it so that all the things that hold you back, you have no excuses for. So you don't want to look silly. Great. So the first couple of minutes, everybody wears a sleep mask so nobody can see anybody else. So nobody has to worry about being self conscious.

[Jenny Eric]

Yeah.

[Ben Swire]

Then the next thing is, you know, people are self conscious about having to perform in front of the people. So instead of performing, what we do is we switch the dynamic. So instead of performing, you're teaching, you're going to teach your, you know, we put people in small groups of four and you're going to teach the other people three people your. Your dance. So now you're in a position of power, not, not being watched by everybody, but instead telling them what you're going to do. And you sort of act it out and you talk about it. And you know, some people ball themselves up and roll around on the ground and then come up and explode. Other people, you know, stomp in place. Some people do whatever they're going to do. Everybody does their own different thing. And then we finally will do a sort of performance when they're comfortable with this, they've practiced enough. But you've got backup dancers that are all doing the same thing as you are for everybody.

[Jenny Eric]

Yeah.

[Ben Swire]

So as I said, this is, this is an activity that I think more than any other activity. And we get this quite frequently with all our activities, but this one in particular, people will sidle up to me afterwards and say, when I heard what we were doing, I Was gonna fake, you know, food poisoning, But I'm so glad I didn't, because what that allows you to do is really see people, see things that you would miss. You would miss otherwise. You know, first of all, it's not something that we often articulate to start. Start with these sort of inner processes. But even when we do, we do it with words. And words. You know, I can say the word car, and everybody listening is going to picture a different car in their head. Different color, different model, different make. But if we. I draw something for you. I'm very. You're very clear on what I'm thinking of now. So when you act this out and I show you what tension and stress looks like on me, inside me now, you really get it. Not only that, but I've made you. You've walked in my shoes. Literally, you've done it. So you felt what I feel, and I felt what you feel, and I've twirled and I've done all these things. And the other thing that is really interesting is when people suddenly realize things about themselves. And I can. I know that for sure because it happened to me the first time I did it when I was practicing, you know, when we first did this activity, and I saw that was one other person in this group that had the same dance that I did, pretty much, which is we both would sort of curl up into a frustrated ball of tension and stress. Fight, fight, fight. And then finally sort of stand up. The difference was that when I did it, I stood up and just sort of sighed and then got ready to go back to work. This guy Tom, when he stood up, sort of exploded in celebration. And I realized I don't celebrate. I'm just mad at myself for getting stopped in the first place, and I want to get back to work. And from then on, I was like, I need to start celebrating. That's why I'm so drained all the time. It's because I'm not taking time to refuel and replenish. And so that's what we hear from this activity that, again, I don't blame people for not wanting to do, but it is really an amazing experience to have the sort of unspoken described in this way.

[Jenny Eric]

Yeah. So different than a golf outing or trivia night. You walk away with so much more. So then it feels like it's worth your time and not just passing your time. It's super interesting. I mean, like I said, I wasn't quite sure what to expect when I picked it up, but I learned a lot, and it was very thought provoking. Safe danger. An unexpected method for sparking connection, Finding purpose and inspiring information. I said that wrong. I'm gonna fix it. I will edit it out and. Inspiring innovation. Inspiring innovation. Ben, we always end our show with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside?

[Ben Swire]

Favorite memory from my childhood was.

I used to hide in the tree when my father would walk underneath it and pretend to be Robin Hood and jump down on him as a, you know, as. As he was my victim sort of thing. And my father had grown up with Errol Flynn and so we would then sort of fence with sticks. And my father and I struggled for different ways to connect, but we really were able to connect through stories, specifically stories that he'd loved. Robin Hood, Lone Ranger. And that was one that was really special.

[Jenny Eric]

You could connect through make believe.

[Ben Swire]

It's all about imagination.

[Jenny Eric]

Yeah, it sure is. Ben, thank you so much for being here.

[Ben Swire]

Thanks for having me, Jenny. This was just a delight.

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