1KHO 643: A Connection to Something Timeless | SD Smith, Helmer and the Dragon Tomb

Summary

The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast

Episode: 1KHO 643: A Connection to Something Timeless | S.D. Smith, Helmer and the Dragon Tomb
Host: Jenny Ertz
Guest: S.D. Smith (author of The Green Ember series)
Date: December 7, 2025

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Overview

This episode explores the crucial value of childhood, the power of books and storytelling, and the need to intentionally connect to "timeless things" in an era marked by technological acceleration and cultural change. Host Jenny Ertz engages author S.D. Smith in rich conversation about family, creative process, and inspiring families (and kids) to read, write, and imagine. The episode dives into Smith's latest Green Ember novel, writing rhythms, resisting the digital onslaught, and the enduring rewards of books as gifts.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Finite Nature of Childhood & The 1000 Hours Outside Movement

Timestamp: 00:48 – 04:56

• Jenny reflects on how children have about "9.5 million minutes" in their childhoods and urges families to intentionally reclaim time from screens by prioritizing outside play, reading, and imaginative activities.
• The 1000 Hours Outside movement sets a goal: match outside time to the average yearly American kid’s screen time (1,200 hours), reminding families about the developmental importance of nature and play.

“Every year we aim to match nature time with the average amount of American kid screen time… Have a goal. Track your time outside. Take back childhood. Inspire others.” – (Jenny, 00:48)

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2. Meaningful Hospitality, Friendship & Story

Timestamp: 00:43 – 03:33

• Jenny tells a heartwarming story of S.D. Smith and his family welcoming her family (eight people!) unexpectedly for dinner during a visit to West Virginia, followed by a group hike and singing “Country Roads.”
• The conversation celebrates genuine hospitality and the lasting memories forged through nature and togetherness.

“Those are the things that you just never forget... Who does that? Who’s like, hey, no problem, we can host eight people tomorrow?” – Jenny (01:59)

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3. Navigating Culture’s Rising Pressures & Seeking the Timeless

Timestamp: 03:33 – 09:01

• Since launching 1000 Hours Outside and the Green Ember books in the early 2010s, both Jenny and Sam observe intensifying social pressures, especially regarding technology, structured activities, AI, and educational competition.
• Both families intentionally resist "digital maximalism" to focus on what seems timeless: connection, reading, board games, and unplugged time.
• Smith describes his work and life as seeking to be “radically countercultural”—rooted in serving families eager to connect with "something timeless."

“I want to create something...enduring. So that’s my heart when other things sort of fall apart around. Kids have so few things to cling on to... they’re a generation just being experimented on technologically so profoundly that I want to just give them a connection to something that's a little more timeless.” – S.D. Smith (08:15)

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4. The Timeless Value of Storytelling and Reading

Timestamp: 09:01 – 12:13

• Jenny and Sam discuss the unchanging importance of reading, storytelling, and sharing books, especially given rising concerns about children lacking "mental imagery" and imaginative capacity because of overexposure to media.
• The act of hearing stories together is framed as a "timeless" thing to cling to.

“Hearing language and reading books together and sharing stories, those things build a person. There are kids... entering adulthood that do not have any mental imagery because they've never been required to use it.” – Jenny (09:38)

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5. The Power and Evolution of the Green Ember Books

Timestamp: 12:13 – 15:02

• S.D. Smith describes the organic origins of the series: stories he told his own children, never imagining they’d grow into a beloved collection of 12 books (“new stories with an old soul”).
• Highlights the appeal: clean, virtuous adventure for families, likened to “Zootopia meets Lord of the Rings” (14:05).
• Discussion of latest release: Helmer and the Dragon Tomb—an origin story for a fan-favorite character, designed as a “side door” into the Green Ember world for new readers.

“If you love the Green Ember and you love that kind of, I don’t know, old style, kind of like Zootopia meets Lord of the Rings kind of adventure...” – S.D. Smith (13:59)

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6. Writing Process, Rhythm, and Priorities

Timestamp: 14:56 – 20:26

• Sam shares his writing habits: clearing time in the morning for prayer, walking, and ideally writing 1,000–2,000 words before daily distractions.
• Notes, story beats, and minimal outlining guide his process; technology is embraced as a tool (as long as “it’s not using you as a tool”).
• The writing act is likened to gardening—never fully exhausted, always generating new ideas.

“I fight like a maniac to clear space...try to get there in the morning...not reading email...I want the storytelling process to be bathed in prayer.” – S.D. Smith (15:02)

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7. The Joy, Surprise, and Unending Possibility of Writing and Story

Timestamp: 20:26 – 24:11

• Smith reflects on the endlessness of both nature and ideas—drawing a parallel between stories and the garden: “You’re never going to fully exhaust it.”
• The process is generative and unplannable; stories, like childhood, are finite only in the hours we devote, not in the ideas we might sow and reap.

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8. Writing as a Form of Discovery, Healing, and Expression

Timestamp: 24:11 – 32:16

• Jenny recounts evidence of kids processing trauma and complex feelings through writing (as observed by a therapist), reinforcing the value of personal expression.
• The discovery aspect of writing is reaffirmed: “Writing often generates ideas authors didn't know they had” (28:15).

“Writing does feel like discovery... so much writing feels like a found object that you’re uncovering.” – S.D. Smith (28:26)

• Writing and creating are valued not just for end products but for what they make of the creator: character, clarity, resilience, service.
• AI can imitate, but cannot replicate the human growth earned from creative labor.

“It’s not just about what’s produced...It’s about what you become as a human being as you go through the trials... If we just push a button and replicate it...we are missing something.” – S.D. Smith (33:24)

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9. The Irreplaceable Value of Human Creation vs. Technological Shortcuts

Timestamp: 33:24 – 39:50

• Deep dive into fears about AI, atrophy of skills, and the loss of imagination if children rely solely on external devices or algorithms.
• Practical advice: children who grow up steeped in story develop a unique, deeply human capacity—one the world will "desperately" need in the AI age.

“Do you want that part of your life... atrophied? Do you want to lose the capacity to read the map?” – S.D. Smith (37:43)

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10. Advice and Encouragement for Aspiring Writers

Timestamp: 39:50 – 41:28

• Writing—real writing—happens in small, daily increments: a thousand words here, a page there.
• Both Jenny (nonfiction) and Sam (fiction) agree: consistency matters more than grand plans. Start with a hundred words, build from there; a whole book is possible in 50–60 days.

“If you could get into the habit of writing a thousand words a day...you could have a full book in 50 days.” – Jenny (41:00)

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11. On Literature Competing With Digital Distraction

Timestamp: 44:09 – 47:29

• The contemporary author faces an uphill battle for reader attention against TV, TikTok, YouTube, travel sports, and other distractions.
• Good craft and respect for reader time is paramount; storytelling must be magnetic, not just available.

“You’re not entitled to the attention of anyone...If they’re spending time with me, I want to make it count.” – S.D. Smith (47:29)

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12. How to Make Reading the “Most Attractive Choice” in the Home

Timestamp: 47:29 – 51:42

• Make reading the reward, not the chore: Sam describes how his family made books and reading the treat at the end of a task.
• “Creative traps” abound: window seats, cozy blankets, snacks, and well-placed books can draw kids into the world of reading.
• “Tricksy parenting” is endorsed as a way to “hook” kids on the “good drug” of stories.

“From the very, very beginning, we made reading the reward...it’s such a powerful experience.” – S.D. Smith (48:10)

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13. Books as Gifts: Tradition, Recommendations, and Favorites

Timestamp: 51:42 – 58:35

• Books have become Jenny’s favorite gifts to give—thoughtful, lasting, and deeply personal.
• S.D. Smith recommends The Prodigal God by Tim Keller (nonfiction), The Diary of Private Prayer by John Baillie (spiritual), and for fiction: Cry, The Beloved Country by Alan Paton.
• Discussion of audiobook formats, Yoto cards, and the Green Writer course for aspiring young authors.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “Kids are being experimented on so profoundly that I just want to give them a connection to something more timeless.”
  – S.D. Smith (08:15)

• “Hearing language and reading books together and sharing stories, those things build a person.”
  – Jenny (09:38)

• “Writing does feel like discovery... you’re uncovering a found object.”
  – S.D. Smith (28:26)

• “If we just push a button and replicate it... we are missing something. It's like asking someone to kiss your wife for you.”
  – S.D. Smith (33:24)

• “Make reading not the chore that gains a reward, but make it the reward.”
  – S.D. Smith (48:10)

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• [00:48] – Jenny on reclaiming childhood and introducing S.D. Smith
• [03:33] – Discussing rising social/parental/cultural pressures
• [09:01] – The enduring value of storytelling, reading, and family traditions
• [12:13] – The evolution of the Green Ember series and its appeal
• [15:02] – S.D. Smith describes his writing routine
• [28:15] – Writing as discovery; the backstory of Helmer
• [33:24] – The difference between AI creation and human storytelling
• [39:50] – Atrophy of imagination and the need for “story-grown” kids
• [47:29] – Making reading the most attractive choice at home
• [51:42] – Book gifting traditions and favorite recommendations

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Final Thoughts

The episode positions both host and guest as passionate advocates for childhood, imagination, and the power of story, standing as “allies in imagination” with families navigating a changing world. It offers encouragement, practical strategies, and a sense of solidarity for parents and creators committed to nurturing children’s inner worlds—one unhurried page at a time.

Transcript

[A]

This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast. Smart move. Being financially savvy. Smart move. Another smart move. Having State Farm help you create a competitive price when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling. Just another way to save with a personal price plan like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Ertz. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours outside and back. One of my favorite people. We just think you're so wonderful what you're doing, putting out all these incredible books into the world. We love your family. Sam S.D. smith, welcome.

[B]

Thank you so much. I'm so delighted to be back with such a good friend. Yes. So good to talk to you.

[A]

This is the best. And listen, this is the time if you are struggling with gifts, buy books. I just think books are the best gifts and they, they have the potential to change lives because reading is such a critical just component of child development. It's, it's something that we just makes us love life so much. It helps us to activate our imagination. So I want to talk about that. I want to kick it off and I probably have said this before, but I want to kick it off by saying that we came to West Virginia last minute. I tell this story all the time. We came to West Virginia last minute. It was like in one day we're coming. We came to come whitewater rafting. The story is, is that we didn't get invited to do anything for fourth of July. And we are feel super lame. And we were like, what could we do? And we're like, well, we could go white water rafting. It's like six hours away from us in Michigan. And we knew that you live close by. And so I was like, we're coming. Would you want to go with us? And you weren't able to. You guys had other plans. But you're like, you can come over for dinner.

I tell people a story all the time. Because I was like, plus we had a friend with us that's eight people. And Gina, you and Gina and your whole family just welcomed us in. Actually, I feel emotional about it, honestly.

[B]

Are you serious? You would do that?

[A]

And then we went hiking and we sang the Country Road song. And I am emotional about it because who does that? Sam? Who's like, hey, no problem. We can host eight people tomorrow.

[B]

You would do it. We loved It. It was some. I was. Funny, I was just looking for a picture the other day for some reason, and I came across some of those pictures because we got up to the top of Turkey Spur at Grandview, which is part of the little, little part of the new New River Gorge National Park. Wonderful place to spend some hours outside. And we went up to the top of their turkey spur, and we're going to take a picture of the river and the gorge below, and there is a beautiful rainbow behind us. And so we had a Me and you and Josh and Gina had, like, a nice little couple's picture there is really nice.

[A]

Yeah. What an experience. You know, those are the things that you just never forget. And so I cannot tell you how many times I've told that story. Okay, here's a new story, though. This one's brand new. So I was talking to this woman who loves read, and she's got some younger kids that are in elementary school. And she. She said to me, I love this, Sam. This is such a good story. She was like, I know. You were like, kind of a big deal. She's like, but, you know, I was just like, whatever. And she goes, and I was looking for clean books for my kids to read, and I came across this guy's name's S.D. smith. And she was like, I'm looking through a site and your name was on there because I had endorsed one of your books. And she was like, what the heck?

[B]

So.

[A]

So anyway, it gave me a lot of cool points.

[B]

Oh, man, do I get cool. I get cool points for endorsing your book. That's the. This is the great exchange.

[A]

Really cool. A really cool exchange that we had. And. And so anyway, we were talking about the green Amber books for her kids, but I would love to kick it off by asking you a question about change. So when we started 1000 Hours Outside, we started getting outside in 2011, and I started writing about it in 2013. It's been a bit. It's been close to 15 years. And the world was at that point still pretty, I don't know, stressful. And there was a lot of pressures. I felt a lot of pressure to enroll at my kids and things. And I know you're a homeschooling family as well. And I started to write, and what I have seen is that things have just got. Become amplified. Like, you know, there's more pressure now to enroll. There's more pressure for the Ivy League colleges. There's a lot of uncertainty and fear about the future in terms of AI And I feel like we've had to up our game basically. Like, it's like. Whereas outdoor time was enough for a while now, I also feel like we have to be pretty intentional about making sure we're playing board games and making sure we're reading and making sure that even our indoor time is not steeped in technology. I feel like our timelines are kind of similar. I don't know when the first Green Amber book came out.

[B]

Yeah, 14, 15. Kind of.

[A]

What changes have you seen since your first book was published in Culture?

[B]

Yeah, that's. So I have to. I track with a lot of what you're saying. I mean.

We describe ourselves as sort of accidental entrepreneurs, and I think just like we didn't mean to necessarily do what happened. And I think that's. I know you've had some similar kind of a. Like this, what you created blew up in a way that was just absolutely unbelievable. And I think it's similar with us. And. Yeah, navigating that kind of thing, especially as we as. As our family moves into, like, having adult children, that. That's a change that we've. We've been going. Going through the last several years. And. Yeah, it's a different world in so many ways, like the, The. The stories. That's why. I don't know. I mean, even trust and. And it's so hard to, like, the. The erosion of trust in institutions and this kind of thing, like, is so, I mean, is just happening at such a rapid pace as you described. So, I mean, to me, I keep thinking, like, that makes me want to be connected more to timeless things, to things that are more sort of out of the ordinary. And I mean, in some ways, I want to stay, like, I want to stay active. I want to be able to communicate and connect with folks. But I have such a sense, such a desire to serve families that are eager to do something pretty radically countercultural. And that is like, sit down and spend time reading a story. And that's so unusual and. And. And countercultural, but it's so profoundly beneficial. And I think you, you know, you talk about that in your. In your new book, which has got. I mean, I'm trying to think of the name of the chapter that. Just what chapter am I talking. Am I thinking of in Homeschooling? Yes, it is just. You have a. You have a chapter about the power of storytelling and stories and.

[A]

And wouldn't it be nice if I had it in here?

[B]

I probably have it, I think, Gina. But anyway, it's just.

[A]

Oh, it's probably on my bookshelf with all these other books, but it's not.

[B]

But just the power of that, what it does for you. I mean, I just felt fired up after reading that. I just felt like validated, like. Oh. And I think what you see and what many, many families. The story started, I've told on this podcast before. Just the stories for the Green Ember started in my family. There were just stories I told my kids. And so there are really disconnected from calculation. And I think it's funny because I think you're talking about, you know, we started going outside and it was like something that your family was doing, and then that became something you wrote about and you shared with the world. It was very. It wasn't like a calculation, like, I've got a really good business plan. I'll. I'll see if people.

[A]

I can get people. In fact, I have a really bad business plan. We have no idea what we're doing.

[B]

Yes, I feel very similar. So it's just so something that started with so. Such a. Such love and it was so organic. And so I think that that's been. I don't know, that has been a good guiding star amid all the changes and things, you know, with. There's. There's all these technological sort of advances, so to speak, and. And they're a temptation to be digital maximalists in many, many ways. And. And we've resisted that really strongly and because we want to be intentional and we want to be connected to things that are timeless. And I think the stories. I want my stories to not be just like, fit into this sort of. This little era of time. I want them to be helpful, useful, delightful, inspiring, encouraging to kids, you know, 50 years after I'm dead. I mean, that would be the dream. I don't presume that. But I want to create something. I want to make things. I want to spend time on things that are enduring. And. And so that's. That's my. That's my heart when things. When other things sort of fall apart around. And I think kids have so few things to cling on to. They have so few things that things move so fast and they have to adapt continually. Adapt, adapt, adapt. And it feels like they're. They're a generation that are just being experimented on technologically so profoundly that I just. I just, I want to just give them a connection to something that's a little bit more timeless.

[A]

I love that. I love that because I. Someone today use that. Use the phrase shifting sands, like we're just in this time of shifting sands. And this man, John Acuff, I asked him one time about, I guess it was about parenting. I can't remember the exact context, but I was like, you know, how, how do you parent with all these changes in AI? And he said there are some things that will never change. Like it's always going to be important that you show up on time. It's always going to be important that you're kind. You know, it's always going to be important that you're responsive. So he's like, I don't focus on all the things that are changing the shifting stands. I focus on the things that are timeless. And one of the things that's timeless is that hearing language and reading books together and sharing stories, those things build a person. And there are kids that are entering into adulthood that do not have any mental imagery because they've never been required to use it. And all of their imagery has come from other sources. Other people have been the imaginators and so that hampers them for their development. So I want to, you know, we don't do big like gift guides for the holidays just because we're bad business people. That's the only reason why I didn't do it. You know, I was with friends over Thanksgiving weekend that, that do that. And they were like putting together their gift guide and I am not kidding, Sam. It was like they were like, oh, sold 18 of that. Oh, sold 20. And I was like, darn.

Like I missed it. I just. Whatever. And this is not anything that is commissions based at all in, in this particular case. But more something that we deeply believe in is the power.

[B]

You might get a good meal. You might, you might, you might get a good meal over, you know, that's, that's the commission.

[A]

We're coming, Tom. See them.

[B]

We'll be, we'll be ready.

[A]

Be ready for us. Yeah. And just beautiful friendships. But you know, I, I do love to talk here and there about gifts that endure and gifts that give more than to me what the dollar amount is, you know, if it's a twelve dollar book. And last year actually gave books for gifts for my own friends. And I'm going to do the same thing this year. We can talk about that in a little bit. But I just think that gifts I, you know, it's not like some snazzy toy, you know, it doesn't have bells and whistles and. Yeah, I do feel like when I get gifts I feel very. Books as gifts. I feel very cared about. There's something about that. So here we go. I am about to hold up my pile here. I've got quite the pile. And here we go. So one of the things that's really cool about your books is that there's a lot of them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that wasn't always the case, but that is the case now. And there's a new one that just came out called the Dragon Tomb. Helmer in the. Helmer in the Dragon Tomb. This one just came out. But the blessing of having a lot of books is that for parents who are overwhelmed, you just know what to get next. So can you talk about, you know, obviously you start with one book. I would imagine you couldn't have ever imagined this entire stack. And there's some, you know, deviations on themes here. Like there's different kinds of ones. But can you talk about that as a parent? Like, it's hard to find clean things for kids to read. And so this is just such a blessing.

[B]

Yeah, I agree with you. That was my hope and my heart was that we'd be able to create something that would be enduring. And of course, that started with one book that was a big surprise to us. To how much it sort of resonated with people. We didn't realize there were other families that were hungry for these, what I call them, new stories with an old soul. And there were just other bunch other weirdo families like us that were hungry for this sort of, like, I don't know, old virtue, but sort of fast pacing of a story that's exciting and thrilling and that kids love because of the adventure and parents love because it's sort of the deep meaning and the deep heart behind the stories and stuff. So, yeah, I mean, there are a bunch. There's 12 Green Ember books. The newest one that you just talked about is Green Ember Helmer and the Dragon Tomb. And it's kind of a. One of the most beloved characters from the Main 4 Green Ember books is an old, wily, old veteran mentor named Helmer. And he kind of became a fan favorite. Like, people just loved him because he's so crusty and he's mean and he's. He kind of has his own arc in the story of like. Of becoming this. This sort of more of a legend. And. And he's this incredible mentor. And so. So this is going back to his origin story, how he became who he later became. Sort of the beginning of his journey from going from being a farmer to becoming a fighter as well. And so it's. It's a story that's really sweet. It's got a lot of like, if you love the Green Embers series, you'll have a lot of. There'll be a lot of little winks and little moments, but it doesn't really spoil anything. And you can start there. It a nice front door. I like to leave a lot of side doors and back doors open in the storytelling world and then kind of explore other little adventures here and there. So if you love the Green Ember and you love that kind of, I don't know, old style, I don't know, kind of like Zootopia meets Lord of the Rings kind of adventure. If you like that kind of a thing.

[A]

So great. So great. Zootopia meets Lord of the Rings.

[B]

Yeah. If that rings your bells. I mean, it's. Then you're going to enjoy this. And there's a lot of it. Yeah. And there's more coming, Lord willing, kind of the plan. So that's been a privilege to be able to tell.

[A]

Give us a little hint of.

[B]

Of. Of what else is coming. Yeah. Okay. So last year we. We did a story called. We released a book called the Lost Key. And it was a bit of a cliffhanger and it was a. It. It featured Heather and Pickett, sort of these main characters in a sort of a little forgotten time. A little bit of a window where there wasn't something else going on. And I sort of like what happened during that time? Well, I. Sharing the story. So I just finished the second draft of the second book in that series and that was coming that Lord Willing will come out next year and maybe, I don't know, maybe even more next year. We're excited. Yeah, there's. There's more. More Green Ember, more Heather and Pickett on the way hopefully in 2026.

[A]

What is your writing process like? What is your writing Rhythm is really what I want to know.

[B]

Okay, so I'm. I'm curious about yours. What do you get into? I mean, there's always like the, the, you know, the perfect is the enemy of the good. They. They talk about. And, and that feels so accurate. Like there's never been a, like perfect. Well, rarely been anything close to a perfect situation. But. But I think it's kind of like what you're talking about with sort of what your family prioritizes. I feel like that's the sort of the life of a writer and probably for any worthwhile vocation, but it's like I gotta like, fight like a maniac to like, clear space and, you know, I'VE got pink trillion emails and everything's waiting and this person's waiting on this and yes. And Jenny wants me to endorse her new book and you know, all the.

[A]

You know they're coming for dinner tomorrow. That's what I was supposed to write.

[B]

No, so, so I don't know if it's like, I try to like for them. I try to get there in the morning and I try to make as few decisions as possible beforehand. I try not to have a lot of like my best case scenario is I'm not reading an email, I'm not checking social media. I am, I'm probably doing. This is probably like the old self righteous thing, but probably like doing Bible reading, prayer, that kind of a thing is maybe my only thing before that engages my mind.

[A]

Seek first.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So, so I think that's, that's a, that's like my big exception is that like I want the storytelling process to be kind of bathed in prayer and I want my heart to be not just oriented towards like I want to make a bunch of money and I want to be famous. Even though all that's true probably in some ways, you know, obviously we, I want to be successful is what I mean. But, but, but, but my real heart is that the kids are served and that they, that they have a good gift. And so, so that's, so I'll try to do as few things as possible, maybe take a walk and try to be thinking, clearing that kind of thing and then get to get to writing right away. And I'll try to do a good session in the morning and I'll try to get to 1 to 2000 words, something like that. And I don't really keep track of it too much as in like oh no, I'll just sort of go and then I'll stop and hopefully it'll be 1 to 2000 words, something like that. And, and if that's the case, then I feel like, okay, that's good, I can, that's a really good. I've got a lot of momentum for the day and then I can go do something else. I can eat, take, take another walk, you know, say hi to the kids. I work from home and so I can do that. And then I'll try to do another session like a little bit later on is sort of the goal. And if I'm getting close to the end of the book, if I'm kind of pushing downhill, then there'll be really big clumps, big, you know, long, you know, three, six Thousand words sort of things and break and then another one. Maybe even at night. Like, I'll just kind of like. So when I'm going to get towards the end, there's always like a conversation with Gina that's like, hey, I'm getting close to the end of the book. And I've. You know, because it's all. All the details are in my mind and I've got. If I don't. If I go away for a few days or forget, don't do it for a few days, then it's hard to reconnect the dots. And that's always hard in fiction and narrative. I'm not sure about nonfiction, but it's so hard to reconnect if you don't. If you're not doing it with, like, momentum day after day. So at the end, I just. I have big, big globs of it. And so I don't know. That's. That's my ideal thing. But I've written under such crazy circumstances because you just gotta fight like crazy to do it anyway, so. But that would be my ideal sort of process, if I can.

[A]

Do you keep notes?

[B]

Yes, all the time. I mean, that's. I don't outline, so my notes are sort of like, they'll story beats or like this needs to happen. Or as I'm writing, I'll think, oh, that's. That's why he did that, because of this. And I'll. Then I'll make a note to go back and address that, or I'll discover something that's wrong and I'll make a little quick note.

[A]

I mean, are you, like. Are you post it noting. Are you typing notes? Like, how do you even keep track of all those, like, tendrils of thought?

[B]

Usually now I'm trying to do it in. In, like, I'm more organized than ever on that front. I'm. I'm not a very naturally organized person. If you would look at my early days of my career as a writer, like, literally those little notes would be everywhere. I worked at this little cafe, and the backs of the menus were just story ideas and all kinds of maps and all kinds. When I'd have a downtime, I would be just, oh, yeah, oh, yeah, I got it. So I have those everywhere, all over the place. And I am a little more organized now. And I'm thankful for. It's a good example of how sometimes technology can be a great tool to use, as long as it's not not using you as a tool. And so I use a Word processor and I'll have a document open that's like things that need to happen at the end. And I'll kind of add to it as I go. And I'll have a sequence, sort of a note. And then I have a little bit of a journal, which is like, this is how many words you wrote today. And if there's something that happened that is like this is what happened. Or I had this idea or edited for this long, I'll just do a little, one little note on that just to kind of keep my progress report. And then I'll have another one. And this is like if I have another story idea, like a different book, which is like the best time. It's just like when you're a kid and you've got homework due. Like everything else in the world is the most interesting thing in the world. It's kind of the same. These, these truant sort of thoughts that, that. So I'll allow myself, like if I get my words done, I have like a brilliant idea or something that's so attractive, like, oh, I just want to write this other book or this other story. I'll just give myself a little bit of time to like write some, write a little bit on it. Just like give it a little bit of a note and then put it away. And then I got to finish my job. So I'll kind of try to keep track like that if I, if I can.

[A]

Just. Things go in all different directions. But what a cool thing though. Sam, like to your point, it's like you start with this one book and you never. It's kind of like in the garden where there's just always something else. Nature's the same way. There's always something else you're never going to fully exhaust. You're never going to fully exhaust scripture. Like there's always going to be something else. And so I just think that's wonderful. When I think back on my own childhood, I remember the freedom of the neighborhood. I hours spent riding bikes with friends until the street lights came on. That's what childhood should feel like. Movement, laughter and connection. And that's exactly what our friends at Woombikes are helping families rediscover. Womb makes the lightest, smartest and safest bikes on the market. Perfectly designed for kids, not just shrunken down adult bikes. Every detail matters. The balance. The brakes, the handlebars, the way the frame fits their growing bodies. You don't just learn to ride with boom. You learn to love the ride. In our own family We've seen that magic firsthand. Our daughter received a Womb Explore six in that that stunning magnetic blue. And from the moment we opened the box, we could feel the difference. The packaging was intuitive, the setup was simple, and within a short period of time, she was riding down the driveway with the biggest smile on her face. When kids have a womb bike, they want to be outside. And that's the heartbeat of what we do, helping families reclaim time, connection and joy through real world play. So this holiday season, don't just give a gift. Give them adventure, give them confidence, give them outside. Check out all the holiday deals [e-mail] that's W-O-M.com if you're like me, sometimes you look back and think, why didn't I learn that earlier? Like, why was I conjugating German verbs instead of learning how to balance a checkbook? Why did I scrape my way through college wishing I'd bought bitcoin at less than a cent? Or honestly, why didn't someone teach me the pure joy of baking homemade bread sooner? We might just be the FOMO generation, but here's one thing you don't want to miss out on. Protecting your future. And the good news, for around the same price per month as one of your streaming services, you can break that generational cycle and actually secure your family's future with life insurance from selectquote.com here's why I love them. Select Quote takes the guesswork out of everything. You don't have to compare dozens of confusing policies. One of their licensed agents will do it for you for free, matching you with a policy that fits your health, your lifestyle and your budget. And you can get covered faster than you think. Some providers even offer same day coverage up to $2 million with no medical exam required. Life insurance is never cheaper than it is today. Get the right life insurance for you for less and save more than [e-mail] save more than 50% on term life [e-mail] 1000 hours today to get started. That's SelectQuote.com 1000 hours. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. The holidays are full of traditions. Some of us grew up with dozens of them, and some of us are just beginning to create our own. In our family, we've been slowly rewriting a few traditions, like perfecting a new hot chocolate recipe with the kids or dropping letters to Santa at the same place. Each year, year, and every year, I'm reminded that traditions don't have to be inherited. We can shape them Refresh them and make them meaningful for the season we're in. One tradition I've personally been thinking more about is carving out space for myself, especially during a time that's joyful, but also busy, emotional, and sometimes lonely. And that's where therapy can become a part of the rhythm this season, setting aside time to reflect, to process, to breathe. It can help rewrite the holidays into something clearer and calmer instead of chaotic. And BetterHelp makes that so accessible. Their therapists are fully licensed here in the US and follow a strict code of conduct, so you know you're in good hands. They do the matching work for you too. After a short questionnaire, Better help uses over 12 years of experience to pair you with someone who fits your goals and preferences. And if the first match isn't quite right, you can switch therapists anytime based on their tailored recommendations. With more than 30,000 therapists and over 5 million people served.

[B]

Served.

[A]

BetterHelp is one of the world's largest online therapy platforms. And it works. So maybe this December, the new tradition is taking care of you. Our listeners get 10 [e-mail] 1000 hours. That's BetterHelp. H E-L-P.com 1000 hours and for kids that are listening, I talked to this woman today who is a therapist of some sort. And she was working with a girl that was 12 years old. And the girl was able to work through her childhood trauma through writing and, and she wrote stories and the characters that, what they were able to discuss what she had gone through through discussing the characters she wrote about because they were what's in her. And so they, you know, the characters were speaking about this girl's experiences, you know, in some sort of veiled way, but in, in ways that allowed them to have these conversations. And so this is like a never ending source of joy and a never ending opportunity. Opportunity for storylines and adventure. So the books, there's so many of them. So you could start with one, you could grab the whole series, go to your website, you can get it the, the cheaper shipping by December 10th. You got four days once this goes live, so pop on over, but you can still get it up till December 15. People do feel really love to get books and like I said, in the end I actually just texted my sister in law because she told me I think that I gave two books last year and I can't remember what the second one was. I thought I only gave one and I'm giving more books this year, but those are lovely gifts and I want to talk about beyond that. And also you have other things there. Let's talk about that real quick. So people go over to Green Ember. There's other things. There's. There's merchandise, too. So there's books, there's audiobooks, there's merchandise, there's printables, there's FAQs, there's Christmas deals, and there's yodo.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

There's a lot Class. Could you ever have imagined?

[B]

No, no. It's. It's. It's wild. We've got a doll now, a plushie, a helmer, a little rabbit with the sword plushie now.

[A]

And there's a video game if that. If that's what your kids are going to connect with and then they're going to read the book. There's that too. I mean, there is so, so much. So the website is sdsmith.com so people can go there. And I do think you have a lot of lead ins, like you can put in, and it'll take you to where you need to go. But you can go to sdsmith.com and you can find all the information there. And you want to go do that now. Especially if you're kind of like, like, okay, I don't have any gift ideas. And if you're a grandparent, you know, like, no AI toys. We're not anyone. We're not doing AI toys. We're not doing toys with algorithms. We're giving books because that's going to help the kids with their imagination and their inner world. It's a really big deal. So I want to tell you about this guy I talked to this year. It was one of my favorite conversations. He wrote a book called the Guide to the Science of Reading.

It's like, I know you said, ooh, but it sounds boring, doesn't it?

Was not like how most people's responses were because it kind of looked like a textbook. And I was like, oh, you know, I think it got sent in the mail. And they were like, can he come on? And I was like, am I really going to read this textbook? And I loved it. So this is one of the things he talked about. And I want to talk about when this new book, which is called Helmer in the Dragon Tomb, this is the brand new one. And you talked about how you're kind of going through Helmer's backstory, Farmer to fighter. And this is what Doug said, said he said that it is the process of writing that generates thought. So this was actually really impactful for me to Read. Because I would have been a little bit more in the camp of, does a kid really need to write an essay anymore because of artificial intelligence? Like, you know, how important is the process of writing? And here's what he said. Writing often generates ideas that authors didn't know they had or cannot explain. The genesis of.

[B]

Yes. Amen.

[A]

So is that kind of the process of farmer to fighter? Like, when you're like, how did he become that? Did it unravel as you began to write?

[B]

Absolutely. Well, Helmer exists because I was writing, so he. And to me, he's kind of like a real person. But he was just there, and he was there, and I was like, what is this guy doing here? And that's what happened in the first Green Ember book, is he just showed up. And so the whole part of the story was just uncovering. I got really curious, why is he in such a bad mood? Why is he so angry? What's going on? Why is he. And so I. That's so much of what happened to unfold his backstory, which has big implications on the bigger story. So so much writing does feel like discovery, definitely. I mean, that's certainly. It feels like a found object that you're uncovering, covering. And other authors have. Have described that better than I am. But. But he. I totally agree with that. Like, I think there's. There's another quotation, which I cannot remember the exact quotation, but it's basically talks about how reading or. Yeah, reading makes you some kind of, like, thoughtful or something, but writing makes you an exact man. I think it was maybe like Jefferson or one of the founders talked about how it makes you an exact person. And. And so many people have said that they don't know what they think until they write it down, and I definitely feel that way. It's certainly nonfiction in a lot of ways. It's like you discover sort of as it flows out. I mean, it's almost like the idea of. Even in a relationship, like, with my wife, there's an idea of what it would be like to love a person or even to dream about, oh, this girl's beautiful. I would love to spend time with her. But then there's.

The togetherness, like, the moment, the handholding, the kissing, the talking, the staring into each other's eyes. That's an experience. That's expression. And it's like. And does. Does love find its full fulfillment in just daydreams or love songs or that kind of a thing? Like, it's really cool. It's a great Part of it, it's anticipation. It's like it's gonna be heartbreaking. It's all. There's a lot of drama in it. But that's not the same thing as expression. And you find so much in expression and you become someone differently. I think when you love someone else, you be. You change. And that expression, the act, and it's the same thing. If, like, if you think about manual labor, think about some kind of a work or working on the railroad or a coal mine or something like, that's very different. Even writing a book about it or researching it, then doing it, you become a different kind of a person. If you think. I think kind thoughts toward the universe is different than I'm like helping the granny, the traditional sort of granny across the street. Like, you change when you act. And I think writing is this really profound act of. And it's. And it's. I think it's so daunting because it's so. It's fearful because it's, you know. You know, it isn't always this. It isn't always exact. So you express and you're. Oh, this. This was hard. This was difficult. But the discipline of coming back and back again to try to figure out how to say something, there is so much. I think there's so much reward in that. There's so much clarity, so much kindness. Especially when you're thinking about the, the storytelling or. Or non fiction writing like you have done as an act of love, as an act of service, it's connected to other people. It's a way to fulfill the command to love your neighbor as yourself. And you think about that expression happening. It is. I think there is. I don't know. For me, it's been an absolute joy. I feel, I felt so much, you know, that whole thing of like the flow state, the whole thing where it's like, it's difficult enough, but it's also. But you also have some mastery to it, like developing into that and then creating. I felt that keenly with this new Helmer book. It just felt like, oh, this is, this is what I'm called to do and I am equipped to do it. And is it, is it easy? No, it's very difficult. But these, I can see that I can almost like anticipate the smiles, the reactions of the kids. And it's just. It's a fuel to kind of, you know, get after it.

[A]

I love that. You know, I don't think that anybody could replicate reading, I guess. Right. Like, the things that you get from Reading like AI is not going to be able to do that, right? You can't really replicate how you feel when you go outside. You know, when you climb the mountain and you see the rainbow, you can't replicate. But you can replicate writing at this point. And so I think it's super important to understand and this is what I learned from this Douglas book, that there is so much value in the process of writing. Like, don't let your kids stop doing it. I want to read a couple other things because I felt like this is what you're saying, you know, when you. I think a lot of people would think, well, I'm going to run out of ideas. That's the fear. The fear is I'm going to run out of ideas. But the writing is what generates the ideas. He said the permanence of writing creates the opportunity for both reflection and accountability and that you can use writing to develop readers. So I would imagine that you've had a lot of people who have been especially young because you have your whole Green writer series and course that you have inadvertently, I would imagine you weren't even thinking about that at the beginning, that you have inspired other people to become writers.

[B]

Like way more than I could have ever imagined. I mean that I constantly hear from kids. I mean I've honestly, Jenny, you wouldn't believe the letters. I mean it's tens of thousands of letters and art from kids that, you know, some sitting on my desk right now, but just art everywhere. It's just, it's actually a problem to try to figure out where to. Where to put it all. But it is amazing how many of them want to be writers. I want to do this. And I think you're exactly right about. The fact is AI cannot right now replicate the best writers. That is a fact. Especially fiction. I think they just cannot do that. But it probably will be able to. And the question for someone who wants to pursue that is like, oh, so should I just give up on it? Because it's easy. I can just push these buttons and I can be better than Bob Dylan, I can be better than Paul Simon. I can just create music with just a few clicks. And it's the same thing with creating music or creating physical art like paintings or writing a story. The reason why you don't want to take that so called shortcut is because it's not just about what is produced. We are not just. It is about human beings growing. It's not just about the thing having the capacity or the technology. The shortcut to be able to create something that is masterful. It is about becoming a master, and it's about what you become as a human being as you go through the trials and the disappointments and the failures and the pain that it takes to write something that resonates with other human beings made in the image of God. And you cannot replicate that with just. I mean, even if you could, and I don't think you quite can, but even if you could, you shouldn't, because you missed the whole process, the whole. It's almost like that. I don't know, I think of, like, shit, Cyrano de Bergeriak. Like, it's. Someone else is writing your love letters for you, and you're. The person is actually falling in love. Not with the handsome person who is pursuing the woman, but it's. You're falling in love with the. With the scriptwriter back there. And it's kind of like that's. That's not the kind of connection that artists want. That's not the kind of connection that human beings want. We want to make things, and we want to earn the making of those things. And if we just push a button and replicate it or manufacture it through. Through. Through a magic wand of technology, we are missing something. It's like asking someone to kiss your wife for you. And, you know, because, you know, like, it's. You're just missing the fun stuff and the hard stuff and the difficult stuff because it's. You know, you take away the danger, you take away the difficulty. You take away. You take away the challenge. And it's like somebody just giving you money all the time. Like, what are you. You're not. You're gonna miss something if you don't work. If you don't work to earn something, you're. You're gonna. You're gonna be missing something.

[A]

Okay? You're gonna miss a lot of something. Because then I read another book because I have, like, even said to people, like, oh, you know, kids are not gonna have to write essays. And I think that's probably true. However. However, that doesn't mean that kids shouldn't write. And maybe, you know, maybe writing essays is just kind of like a boring thing. Maybe you should be writing stories. But very recently, just a couple weeks ago, I talked to this man named Dr. Daniel Willingham, and he wrote a book called something like Raising Kids who Want to Read or something along those lines. And what he talked about was. He talked about expertise. So here's what he said. The expert's mind has information organized differently from a novice and that's the difference. It's like, okay, if you're constantly using artificial intelligence to do all of your things, your mind is not going to organize in the way of an expert. And then what he said was, is that experts, even when they make mistakes, their mistakes are really close to good because they already have this different structure in their mind. So he was talking about chess players and how, like, a chess player might make. Especially one that's an expert might make a small mistake, but they're not going to lose. If I make a mistake, I'm checkmated, I'm out, you know, or whatever. And so even as a writer, I guess it gives you a lot of.

Like, there's a lot of fear there, right. Where you're like, oh, what if I don't have ideas? Or, what if what I write is stupid? But if you write at right. And write and write, even if you're. Even if it is, like, a little cheesy or, you know, there was a little bit of a blip there, the mistakes are just so slight.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

As opposed to if you never did.

[B]

It at all, you're sort of failing in the right direction, or you're kind of like, yeah, that things are happening. I totally agree. I mean, I think that the thing that we underestimate is the atrophy that happens. I mean, like, everybody from sort of our age or my age up and older, like, people knew how to use maps and that kind of thing, and you could sort of find your way around. And now, I mean, I don't know how to find. I mean, I rely on gps. That's. And you might say that's a pretty good tool. Like. But I think that there's a value to that. And I think there's lots of ways in which technology can help you. I like the technology of a car or a plane that, like, let me visit Africa without, you know, maybe six months of a boat trip or something. I like that there are obviously some really great uses. But I think that the challenge is, do you want that part of your life, your imagination, your heart atrophied? Do you want it atrophy? You want to not. Do you want to lose the capacity to read the map of, like. And I think when you're talking about sort of literature and the arts and I think spirituality, that kind of revelation, these kinds of things. Like, I don't think you want to outsource that to a robot. I think that we want to remain human beings, and this is like, how we've been human beings. For a long time. And I think if you. If the imagination is a capacity like the intellect, that's a gift of God, that can be weak, it can be grown, it can be stronger. And I think if we let that atrophy, then I think there are consequences to that. I think there are significant consequences to it. And I think we're going to be coming face to face with that over the next generations. And I just tell you, I mean, you probably know your kids. I mean, the kids who read a lot and the kids who are steeped in stories and steeped in beauty, I think steeped in the story of Christ, they're different. They're special. They're going to do things in the world that a person who's relying on the magic wand of AI or technology are going to be incapable of. And I think the world needs kids like that desperately. Really?

[A]

Yeah. There's a depth there. I liked when you talked about the 1 to 2000 words. So when I write, and this is not my forte, but I do feel like when I sit down to write, it's about a thousand words. And then you kind of, you know, your brain starts to become tired. And I would imagine if you did it more often, then you would have more capacity, I think, to write more. But that's a reasonable writing session, is about a thousand words, you know, and it's like, okay, a typical nonfiction trade book. So the ones I've written are about 50,000 words. I don't know what you go for in terms of length.

[B]

Yeah, that's about 50. That.

[A]

50,000 words, right? Same. Right?

[B]

Yeah, it's similar.

[A]

About 50,000 words. So if you're listening in and you're like, I've always wanted to be an author, and I've got these ideas. First of all, know that when you sit down to write, that's when the ideas come. So you don't have to have it all figured out at the beginning. And if you could get into the habit of writing a thousand words a day, which is a habit, you know, you sit down for an hour, maybe 90 minutes. Minutes. And obviously there's more to it than that. Right. Like, we both would attest to. Like, then there's editors, and then there's layout, and then, you know, there's more to it. But the actual writing thing, it's like you could have a full book in 50 days.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What a remarkable thing.

[B]

It's powerful, and you can build up to that and you don't have to start, you know, but probably that's daunting to start. You can start with a hundred a day and then you can go from there. Especially if you're young, you know.

[A]

Yeah, for little kids for sure. But once you kind of get into it. But maybe you're spitting out five or six hundred words. There's a man named Sean Diedrich who writes about five or six hundred words every single day. He's got. He's got these essays online that are phenomenal. Some of my favorite writing [e-mail].

Does anyone else feel like the holidays just showed up overnight? One minute we're picking pumpkins and the next I'm looking around my house thinking wait, do we have enough guest towels? Where is the wreath from last year and who am I still missing gifts for if you are in that same last minute scramble? Wayfair has been such a lifesaver for us during this season. The holidays are here and you get what you need fast with Wayfair. From bedding and linens to decor for every room in the house, it is truly your one stop shop. We've been adding some final holiday touches to our home and I recently ordered a couple things from Wayfair. A beautiful neutral throw blanket for the living room and the sweetest little lamp for the kids Reading Nook Everything came with fast free hassle free delivery and it all looked even better in person than online. It is amazing how one new piece can make your home feel warm, refreshed and ready for hosting. And if you're in the gifting mode, Wayfair really is the perfect place to shop for anyone on your list. Their selection is huge. Every style, every budget and I keep finding things I didn't even realize they carried like kitchen essentials, storage solutions and seasonal decor. To get everyone in the holiday spirit. Now is the time to get your home ready so you can actually enjoy the holidays with your family instead of running around trying to catch up. Wayfair truly has everything your home needs this season. Get last minute hosting essentials, essentials, gifts for your loved ones and decor to celebrate the holidays. For way less head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W A Y F A I R.com Wayfair Every style, every Home when it comes to holiday gifting, I want to give things people genuinely love. Beautiful, timeless pieces they'll wear for years. And that's why I'm going with quince. From Mongolian cashmere sweaters to Italian wool coats, everything is premium quality at a price that actually makes sense. Cents Quince truly has something for everyone. Their soft Mongolian cashmere sweaters start at just $50 and they look and feel like the designer pieces you see for 200 or more. They've got gorgeous silk tops and skirts for dressing up, perfectly cut denim for everyday life, and outerwear that actually keeps you warm without feeling bulky. And their Italian wool coats, oh my goodness, these are standout pieces. Beautifully tailored, soft to the touch and made to last for season after season. What I love most is that quince works only with ethical, trusted factories and uses truly premium materials, yet get their prices stay far below what you'd pay at other luxury brands. Personally, I've been reaching for my Quint's cashmere non stop as the holidays get closer. The cashmere feels incredible. Soft, structured and it doesn't pill. It is the kind of quality I normally expect from a $200 sweater, not $50. Find gifts so good you'll want to keep them with quints. Go to quints.com outside for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N c e.com outside to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com outside.

Okay, I want to read you a quote. Tell me what you think about it. This is a quote from Reynolds Price, who is an author at the faculty of Duke. He's like on the faculty at Duke University. Here's what he says. Any writer should proceed on the assumption that what the reader really wants to do is drop his book and turn on the television or get a beer or go play golf. Obviously we're not talking about children here, but you know, but the assumption that there's all these other things vying for everyone's time. How do you feel about competing? Because you are, you're competing with Tick Tock, you're competing with YouTube kids. Hopefully you're not competing with Tick Tock. This is like a younger audience. So hopefully the 8 to 12 year olds are not on Tick Tock. But you know, you're competing with, you're competing with travel sports you're competing with a lot.

[B]

Yeah, I do think about that. I think there's an unhealthy way to obsess about that. That kind of is distracting from the craft. And then there's a way to sort of like take that in. So I think an author actually has to have this sort of dichotomous.

You have to have a pretty intense capacity for like nuance for holding difficult Sort of seemingly contradictory kind of things because. Partly because for most people writing doesn't. It's. It's. It doesn't work. Like it's hard. Like it's. It's almost like it's such a crazy proposition. I'm going to spend all these hours writing this book and then I expect other people to read it. It's like a wild kind of. It could be a. It could be an arrogant.

[A]

And to take a lot of their time to read it. Right. You know, I mean, this is 300 something pages. You're like, you know, it is. That is a really interesting point that you're like this. This family or is going to take a percentage of their life and dedicate it to my imagination totally.

[B]

It's like a. It's sort of a wild presumption. And so you could, like, if you're rational, you can immediately think. Like, that's kind of kooky. Like, I shouldn't. That's crazy. That's arrogant. I shouldn't do that. Like I should. These people. So you can kind of like easily talk yourself out of. So you have to have sort of like this fight, ongoing fight against the resistance of saying you sort of have to like cultivate a little bit of madness.

[A]

Yeah, no, no, the. No, it's like I'm in the ring. I'm putting up the fight against TikTok and YouTube kids and Netflix and Disney. You're in the ring.

[B]

Yeah, that's true. And I believe that. I feel that like pretty keenly like that a sense of mission. But it's. So I think holding on to that at the same time, sort of like focusing on the craft, focusing on what you do and focusing on your readers and that kind of thing. And then I do think there's a. There's a. An idea that even just broadly, if you're just talking about the world of books, it is helpful to sort of think like you're not entitled to the attention of anyone. So I think that that should sort of, from a craft perspective, make us want to work harder. It certainly makes me want to like to not waste their time, to not be self indulgent, to not fall into a bunch of traps, not to be unclear. I want to try to be as clear, as generous as possible with their. Their time and honor it and make it. And so I think that's super, super central. So, yeah, I know they could do. They can do whatever they want with their time. And if they're spending it with me, I want to make it count.

[A]

I love that. How about this? This is from the same book. It's called Raising Kids who Want to Read. I Hope it's by Dr. Daniel Willingham. People can find it. It is not enough that the child regards reading as an attractive choice. Reading must be the most attractive choice available at the moment. The decision is made. This is an enormously important consideration. The average high schooler doesn't hate reading, yet he virtually never chooses to read because there is always another activity available that is more appealing. Can you talk about from the dad's side? From the dad's side, Sam. The homeschooling dad side? Just dad side in general.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

On crafting a family that prioritizes reading.

[B]

Well, when you're reading that, I thought the. The first thing that came to my mind is that one thing that we. Of all the goofy things we did to. Not to imperfectly parent, I would say one thing that we did pretty well early on is it, particularly with our first child. We. We were full on. We're doing a psyop on this kid as far as about reading, because I didn't grow up reading, and so I was a late reader for sure, so. So my wife did read more and we were just like, this is. We are so, you know, a lot of people will say, like, well, if you will read a little bit, then you'll get a reward. Like, if you read a chapter, then you'll get this candy or you'll get to watch TV or. And so we. I understand, like, everybody's in a different kind of a battle, and sometimes that might. You got to pull that. You got to pull that off. But from the very, very beginning, we made reading the reward because it's such a. An incredibly powerful experience that it's kind of like a tiger that you just got to let out of the cage. And it's when you. When you get into it and when you give it a chance, it's so. It's so transporting and it's so engaging, and you engage your own imagination. Like you said, you supply the pictures, this author supplies the words. And so reading is just such a wonderful experience. So we just made that, like, that is going to be the reward. So if you. If you get just this thing done, then we'll let you read a little bit here. So that was really early on. That's really tricksy kind of parenting sort of a thing we did. And then I think another thing that we. We probably talked about this before, but, like, the whole idea of, like, setting traits, traps, another really cool thing. A parents I think can do is, you know, if you have a window seat in your house, you have a cozy little corner, put some blankets out, some pillows, little snack, a little sweet something there, some books laying around. It kind of just set a little, like, spider web kind of a trap for the kid to like, oh, this is a fun thing to do. And there's probably a more masculine way to do that and a more feminine way to do that. If you weren't trying to appeal to, like, a adventure Hungry Boy or something sort of like that. You can depend on your kid, whatever they're. Whatever they're into. But I think you can make a little. Make these little creative traps. I think you can do the same thing with music. I mean, all of my kids play music and songwriters and create and play a bunch of different instruments. And that happened, like, through these traps, I think, and through setting it up. And it was like a normal thing. Was it attainable? And it was accessible. And so, I don't know. I'm a big believer in that whole, like, that make reading not the chore that gains a reward, but make it the reward early on. And then I think these, like, creative traps are really, really powerful.

[A]

The levels do that with your books. They've talked about it. John and Rebecca Lovell, like, the evenings, you know, they're sitting around and reading the Green Ember, and, you know, it's like, oh, can we do one more chapter? It's like, yeah, that's the reward. That's like the little special part. And they talk about how the dad, John, he'll do all these sound effects and just been, like, so special. I know they're such huge fans of yours. Yours. So many people are such huge fans of yours, but, you know, so cool to be that part of a kid's childhood. And this Daniel Willingham we talked about raising kids. You want to read. He said, like, in terms of tricksy parenting, that he. I think he said something like, you know, the weekends that they would be doing chores, but if he was reading, he didn't have to do them. He was like, I realized when I was an adult that was tricksy parenting. So it's good.

[B]

Yeah, pull out all the tricks. It's if. If you get them hooked. It's like a drug. I mean, it's like. It's like the good drug. It's. It's so. It's so addictive and it's so, you know, enlivening. So, yeah, I'm all for doing all the tricksy stuff.

[A]

So I started a tradition last year of giving books for Christmas. And I thought I only gave one, but then my sister in law told me I gave two. And I'm like, I don't know what the second one was, but I gave this book called Will the Circle Be Unbroken by Sean D. Hedrick. And it is a phenomenal. I cannot recommend it more highly, memoir. And John is a phenomenal writer and funny and you laugh and you cry and he says in there, my childhood was not a pretty one, but I believe ugly childhoods make pretty people. So then this year I am giving a praying life by. I think his name is Paul Miller. And this is the problem, because if people are listening and they're like, I thought I was your friend.

I'm mixing and matching because I was like, this end, it started to get expensive. But a Praying Life by Paul Miller, which I learned about from this book called Come on Home by Jessica Smart. And it's just a phenomenal, phenomenal book about prayer. I just cannot recommend it more highly. So I'm giving that. But also this man named Leland Vittert, Leland Lucky Vitter, who is a host on News Nation and he wrote a memoir that came out earlier this year, not that long ago called Born Lucky. So some people will get both, some people will get just one. And I'm sorry, we do a budget, so that's just how it's gonna be.

[B]

You read so much, Jenny. How much do you read?

[A]

I read a lot. I read probably five to eight books a week, so quite a bit.

[B]

Are you like a fast reader or just like your brain just goes that.

[A]

You know, sometimes I think I'm a fast reader, but then other times I'm like, like, I. I'm not. Sometimes it's kind of slow. It just depends. I don't know. I. I do think, though, I did read this thing once that said, okay, I'm left eye dominant. I Learned this from Dr. Carla Hannaford. I'm left eye dominant. Kids who are left eye dominant sometimes have a harder time reading. And actually they can read really well if you flip the book upside down. And they would read really well if it was a different language that went right to left. Anyway, I think that because of the way my eyes go on the page, I absorb it a little bit faster because my eyes naturally go to the end of the sentence and not the beginning. I don't know if that's a thing.

[B]

Thing.

[A]

So maybe. I don't know. I've thought about it before. Okay, so those are my books for this Year. If you're looking for books to give to kids, this. These are wonderful, wonderful stories. And I can picture in our own life, like, our kids and where they've been when they got first. Got absorbed into your books. So one of them was in Cincinnati at the great homeschool convention. That's where we met you. I remember your daughter, like, allowed us to get stuff early. It was your daughter or your niece? Niece. And they was like. Nothing had opened, but we both had booths, so it was like, well, I need to get in now. And our kids were just walking around Cincinnati, like, downtown with their faces in the book. And I was like, you're gonna probably run into something. You know, I can think of the vacations that we've been on when the kids have been reading the books. That's like a really special thing. But there's a lot to choose from. And if you want to hop on, you check that out. Now put it under the tree. As an adult, if you were going to give a book to your friends, what would you give?

[B]

Well, you made me think of a book that I've given away. On my desk, I have the Prodigal God by. By Tim Keller, which is just a wonderful sharing of the gospel. I gave that to a lot of. I gave that to our seniors from our soccer team this week at a. At a banquet of a soccer team that I coach. And I love it. There's a book called the Diary of Private Prayer by John Bailey from. I guess he was probably the end of the 18th or the 19th century or the early 20th century. I can't remember a Scottish minister that. That book has been so. Oh, I just. You talk about prayer. It's just. It is prayers, but it's. It'll have like, a morning and an evening prayer, and it is so. It's so expressive of what I feel, but I'm not able to put into words. And so I love that kind of thing. I think I grew up in a.

[A]

More of a.

[B]

A culture that was more like spontaneous, and that something had to be spontaneous to be sincere. And I've just found a lot of rest and encouragement in sort of the prayers of saints gone before. Like, the Book of Common Prayer is just. Is central in my life, for sure. And then this Diary of Private Prayer would probably be. That's a book I've given to a lot of people. So I love that you got me going all spiritual here, but that's great.

[A]

I'll put in the show notes. I have a book called Prayers that Avail much By Jermaine Copeland. I thought about throwing that in the mix, but then I was like, this is too expensive.

[B]

Josh is like, no, stop buying prayer books.

[A]

All right. What if you had to pick a fiction?

[B]

Oh, fiction, my goodness.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

I mean, I've always come back to maybe cry. The Beloved country by Alan Patton is a. Is a story from South Africa that I. He's a South African writer that I love so much. And that's beautiful. That. That would probably be more for adults, for grownups.

[A]

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. That's what I'm talking about. Like, obviously, what are we going to get the kids? We're getting them Green Ember. We already know that. But if you were to give a book, it's called.

[B]

What is it called? Cry of the Cry, comma, the Beloved Country.

[A]

I've never even heard of that one.

[B]

It's really beautiful. There was a movie about it that. That wasn't as good, but it's. It's a really lovely. It's a really love and sad and deep and poetic, and it reminds me of where it's set, close to where I lived when I was in South Africa. So it's a beautiful, sad, moving story. That is fantastic.

[A]

Yeah. It's an Oprah Book Club selection about a Zulu passing. And you've got your.

Zulu book. Wow. Okay. Wow. That's interesting. Well, I'm looking into that because I've read your. Your Zulu books that you've written with your son.

[B]

So do you like. Are you all reading or you do any.

[A]

I do sometimes audio. But, you know, kids interrupt, so. And then I start to get kind of irritated. I'll do audio. If I'm by myself for an extended period of time, like every great. Once in a while, I'll go on a. Like, if I have to go on a work trip and I'm driving, then I would do an audiobook, so. Yeah, but not daily around the house too much. But it's so cool that you can get your books on yodo. Those things are the coolest things ever.

[B]

That's been really fun. I think we're going to have the real cards, like, from their store. But anybody who buys the audiobooks from us, we've had some. Actually. That is really a cool deal. You can get the first book for free. Anybody can get that at my website. And so that if you just want to try it out, that's like a simple low barrier. But you can also get the Yodo. So you can get like the 11 book Green Ember. Deal. There's. You can get all my books on. On our website, audio for. For pretty good prices. But we also do the Yodo for free. Like, you can make your own cards. Like, we have the. The stuff you can. You can print off to make your own cards with that. So, yeah, we love Yodo. That works, like, great for ourselves. Yes.

[A]

It's right at the very top. It says free audiobook. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, what a treat. That's incredible, Sam. So people can check out the Green Ember series. Jack Zulu Mooses with bazookas, Found Boys. And if you go on over, you can go to the store too. And there's a bunch of other things as well that you can check out. And also there is the course still here?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, that's right. You. You remember that. And you. You always share that. That's so kind of you.

[A]

But, yeah, The Green Writer, it's called. Right? Yeah.

[B]

And that's another one that you can just try for free. Like, the first three lessons are free on there, so you can kind of figure out, oh, is this something that would help my family, my kids, my young writer? So it's. It's pretty easy to. We try to remove the obstacles. Like, we're not trying to trick anybody into getting anything they don't want. So if. If you. If you want to try it, it. It's. You can. You can try it for free.

[A]

Yeah. 12 sessions. 12 accessible sessions that will inspire and equip your aspiring author. So homeschool parents that are listening in or parents that, you know, are wanting to spend their afternoons, and you got a kid that's really interested in writing. What a great option. 12 sessions. Sam's always an honor.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

People have four days. You got four days. And spread the word to your friends, too. Spread the word. Let them know this is a great gift. It's a gift that keeps on giving, which is so cheesy to say, but, you know, when you hear about the kids that have no imagination and can't do mental imagery, it is heartbreaking. And reading has been such a joy in my adult life. So we want to make sure that the kids have that gift for the. For the remainder of their days. So, Sam, what a thing you do for all these families. Gosh, it's. It's really moving and really bonding. It's so bonding, you know?

[B]

It is. Yeah. I'm with you, and thank you so much. You've been such a. We. Our little company is called Story Worn, and we are. Our tagline is allies. And imagination that we, we're not. We're trying to be allies with parents out there and that's our heart. And I just like that's who you are to us. You've just been such a great ally and, and an ally to so many families and super grateful for all the work you've done and are doing. It's awesome. And we are like in solidarity, we love, love it.

[A]

Yes. Wow. Is that good. Allies in imagination whereas the majority of things that are aimed at kids are co opting it. So you're in the ring, you're in the fight. Yeah, I love it.

[B]

Yes. With the, with the parents on the parents side.

[A]

The books are called the Green Ember series and I already said it but the, the brand new one is called Helmer in the Dragon Tomb. Sam, thanks for being here. We're coming for dinner tomorrow. Tomorrow.

[B]

Thanks, Jenny. We'll get it, we'll get it started.

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[A]

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[B]

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