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The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 646: The Moments That Change Our Lives Are the Little Moments | Rory Feek, Once Upon a Farm
00:59:29
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- [00:01]
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John Legend, Sheryl Crow, Elvis Costello, and.
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Alanis Morissette star in the MGM original series, Words and Music. Iconic artists share intimate performances and the.
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Stories behind the songs. New episodes Sundays on MGM.
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Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jeanne Urch. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside, and I have such a special guest with for you. It's always the worst when I mess up right at the beginning. A special guest for you today, Rory Feek.
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A
Welcome. Thank you for having me. Jenny, good to see you again. First time in three days.
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B
Yes.
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A
We were just together. We were just together in Texas.
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B
We were at the Homemaker conference. And your wife, Rebecca, she is so good at those.
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A
She is. She's better than I thought. It was really a revelation for me. I knew that she was good, but she's better than good. She really does have a gift for that. And I've told her, especially after that one, it felt like God really revealed something new inside of her to. To all of us and her, too. Thank you for saying that.
- [01:07]
B
Yeah, I've been to a lot of conferences and spoken at a lot of them, and there's something special about the way that she connects with people, connects with the speakers, but also connects with the attendees, the way that she can kind of emcee it through. It's really impressive. So it was an honor to be with you and your family. And there was really special elements to that one. Like there was a kids choir night, and you in Indiana sang, and I enter intersected with your story. In my mind, you are connected with the Joel Salatins of the world, and I know you are connected with the Joel. So I had this. This hierarchy of farmer, you know, of homesteader. You know, a lot of times you got your overalls on, and then, oh, sometimes you play music. And I got it backwards that actually your foundation here is on this incredible songwriting gift that you have in all of this music that you put out in the world. And in fact, you had a, like, the sweetest music video that came out this year called Harvest Time. So I'd love to talk about. Well, let's kick it off there with the music. This Harvest time, not only is it the music, but then it's the video that goes along with it. Then I was like, my friends are in that. And I love that you say it starts with a catalog, and it does. You know, you're in the middle winter, and you get this catalog in the mail, and it's got all these vegetables, and you're like I'm gonna do it. So give us a little background about. You've been writing songs since the 90s.
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A
Yes. So I. I would say that's. That's an interesting setup that you said, because I. I wouldn't consider myself a musician first. I wouldn't consider myself even a homesteader first. It's just the way that life has gone. My history, and especially on the success side, came from music and songwriting. I grew up. My father wanted to be a singer in. In Kansas, where I'm from. And so that got passed on to me fairly early. And then I made my way to Nashville in the mid-90s and began writing songs and started having some success as a songwriter, which led me. I'd never owned a house before. We. Mostly I'd grown up living in trailers and in apartments. And so when I had a chance, I started having some success. I. For whatever reason, something inside of me.
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Made me want to buy an old farmhouse and a little bit of land. And so I bought a. An old farmhouse, 150-year-old about which is what. I'm sitting in here about an hour south of Nashville. And, you know, your journey leads you to. Your journey to the place where you're supposed to be. So it's. For me, it was all the music. And I do still play some music. That's been something I kind of laid down mostly for the last 10 years, especially songwriting. But a lot of times the gifts that you're given, at least my experience is those gifts lead you to where you're actually supposed to. Supposed to be. The gifts themselves and how you're using them for the. A long period of your life may not actually be what they're for. And so I would say I'm a. You know, I'm a long way from the music business now. I. I still do some stuff. I still sing some. And write some songs, but it's just. It's in the proper place. It's a part of my life. It's not my life.
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B
Yeah. I mean, you have a lot of cool parts of your life. Like, I learned that you played volleyball. You know, I like reading this book.
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A
And I'm tall.
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B
Yes. And you coach volleyball now, and you've got these books that you've written now. And I read them both, and I really enjoyed them. This Life I Live and Once Upon a Farm, as well as kids books. You've got several kids books. The Day God Made you. And, you know, I think you talk about in your book, you had a really hard upbringing and you got this single mom. And you talked about how no one told you you could have gone to, you know, you could have gone, you probably could have gone for free. You would have gotten all the scholarship money because of income levels. And you talk about this question of what if? And I thought, I thought that this is a really relatable question. I think a lot of people wonder what if? So you wrote this. You say, what if I'd grown up in a different family with less welfare from the government and more than one parent looking out for the welfare of us five kids? I can't help but think about what I'd have done if I'd gone to college, who I'd have become then. You talk about, though, that there's lessons that only life can teach. You talk a lot about education. Can you just help? I think qualm, the almost, I guess, fears of someone who, who is pondering those what if questions. Because now looking back, I would imagine you could say, I see God's hand. God was in it all the way. I'm, I'm in a spot. Even though we've gone through all these hardships that has led me to a beautiful and full life, even though, even though the upbringing was hard, even though there's been all of this devastation and loss.
- [05:48]
A
Yeah. I think you can ask what if? Without feeling like you're longing for the answer to that question. I mean, it's really more of a, of a, a practical what if? I wonder what life would be like. I wouldn't change it. It's a real gift. I remember years ago seeing the movie, It's a, what's it beautiful life. And the guy that he won like the Oscar and he, he came up on the stage and he said, I want to thank my parents for giving me the greatest gift they could ever give a child poverty. And so for me, I wouldn't change the gift that I was given of growing up and, you know, sort of on welfare and, and just struggling. It's just a, more of a question of what would life have been? Where would it have taken me? I don't think it would have been better. It would have been different. And I'm, I'm thankful for those difficulties. God really gives you a testimony. You know, I, I, I've been given a really wonderful, terrible, incredible, tragic testimony. And it's really all his workings in my life through those, those memoirs. I think the theme, I don't know if it's this way when writing. For me, when I write my blog or I write books, most of the time, I don't actually know. I don't set out to write something in particular to tell you something. I sit down to find out what it is I'm thinking, find out what it is that I feel, how I feel about something. And so what was revealed to me, and it was inside of my heart, but it made it very clear in writing those memoirs, is that although it was a difficult upbringing, my, my mother did the best she could. She really did. She did the best she could. My father did the best he could. And everyone around us, around me and including myself, done the best I can with where I am and who I was at the time. And the grace in that is a, is a real important thing. Then you don't sit around, you know, wishing something was different and blaming somebody instead of. You just think everybody's doing their best, including at this particular moment, we can do better. But that's really kind of what, what I felt from growing up that way is my mother did the best she could with what she had.
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B
I think it's really interesting what you brought up about the writing because in this age of AI, it is very easy to look at a book or writing in general, blog post a book, songs, songwriting, and think about it in terms of the end product. And if all you think about it is in terms of the end product, then you can have a computer do that for you pretty easily. But I had someone recently who say, who said when a writer sits down to write, it was, it was a teacher. And he said when a writer sits down to write, they don't know. They, they don't totally know what's going to come out and, and it happens in process and they kind of find themselves in process. And that's what you're talking about. If, if you had not read the, written the books and you, you had said, you know, because you have quite the story. You had a wife that passed away and you've been a Grammy Award winning songwriter. I mean this incredible different, like different sets of set of skills in life and the, in the homesteading, this homestead festival that I came to last year, I mean it was just remarkable. It was huge. It was all these people there. It was so exciting. So, you know, you could probably plug that into any machine and say, you know, spit me out a story and it probably would spit you out a good one. But can you, can you talk to the parents who are confronting especially because you talk a lot about education, confronting artificial intelligence and how that could really be weaving its tentacles into a lot of these things that you've done over the past decades.
- [09:40]
A
My nephew, yesterday I walked into. He works with me, and I walked in and he had been Googling me. Not Googling, he'd been asking chat GPT, which I've not been on at all. He said, hey, I work with Rory Feek, and I don't know, it's marketing stuff or whatever. And he read to me some profound things that it said about me. It said, here's who he is, here's what he does, here's what matters, here's why people connect with him, here's the choices that he made, everything about it. And it was pretty stunning to see that somehow it has gone out there with its tentacles and found all this. And most of it, I would say, is pretty in line with how, at least I. I think that I am and. And maybe how I think that maybe people might perceive me. But it would also be a little bit shocking if the Internet sees you differently than you do. But the point is, is that it is an incredibly powerful thing. That's that most people are getting all of their information from now. And we try to. To be very, very thoughtful about it all. You know, we don't. We. I was. I took a. So in 2022, I took a year off the Internet from August 1st to August 1st. Nothing whatsoever. Not an email, nothing. I took a year off just as an experiment to see how it would feel to be 15 years ago. And that was pretty profound. And before that, I took three years off and during that, where I only had a flip phone again for three years. So I'm kind of always pushing the boundaries of, you know, that the road not taken, I tend to want to go down the road not taken quite a bit. And what can I glean from those? And then when I finally turned the Internet back on or and. And started doing a little bit more, I was a little more educated and a little better, a little clearer on. On what the tool was and. And things like that. But I think the main thing for me as a family and what I would encourage other people is be intentional with all of your choices, including technology for yourselves and your children. Most of us are worried about technology for our children. We need to worry about it for ourselves because they are watching us all the time. And for some reason we think that we can separate those things. We think just because we don't give them a smartphone until they're 17 or 18, they're better. But we're really setting the tone of everything. And so I think that's the main thing for us is just. And for me as a writer and a creator, is trying to be as intentional as possible and not just saying, wow, another new tool that's really, really fun and really helpful because I think what would. What could happen is, let's say if you're writing instead of me discovering what I think, how I feel about something, it wouldn't take long if I. If I put a prompt in and said, write a story about this weekend that I just experienced at the Homemakers Weekend. I give you some prompts, and it will tell me what I thought about it.
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B
Right.
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A
And after a little while, it will be what I thought about because I, I, you know, not only will they not know the difference, after a while, it will add up. So I think as much as we can, to participate in our thoughts ourselves is a good idea.
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B
Yeah, you said I sit down to find out what I'm thinking. So that craft of writing is in all the different senses, whether it's songwriting or blogging or writing books or writing children's books, the craft of writing, the process matters. It's not just the end product. You talked about your mom. She loved to be a writer. Isn't this an interesting thing? Was like, your dad, he was into the music. And your mom, she was into writing as well and loved books. And here you are, a combination of the two, doing both.
- [13:30]
A
My grandmother, actually, upstairs, I have a. I have a big folder full of my grandmother's writings, poetry, and she had a lot of things published. And she's in Michigan. They're from Michigan. My mother's family are all from a little town, at least for a period of time. Well, they were. Mom was from Lakeport, near Port Huron, I think. Yeah, I lived in Michigan for a little while. Yeah, I lived in Michigan for a little while when I was a boy. But my grandmother, who I never met, was a writer, kind of a published writer, at least locally, and she also wrote some wonderful stories. So my mother, I think, had that inside of her too, and was really, really a good writer. My father was really more of a singer, but in my family, and his father was a musician and probably goes way, way back. It's. There's something creative in. In our family, wanting to express. Express whatever's inside. You know, I think the. The interesting thing is that we, you know, we learn. I, as a songwriter, when I began really professionally writing songs and getting better and better at the craft, I'm more of an inspirational. There are crafters, and I'm sure it's the same way with author, with authoring crafters. They, they, you know, they write out and they completely, meticulously create an outline. Here's what I'm going to do. And I fill in all the blanks. And there are songwriters who do the same thing. They've got a really great idea and they've got it all set out. And I can do that, but I'm more of an inspirational writer. I will take off on a first line that that's interesting or compelling, and I will see what it wants to say. It's alive and it wants to say something. And I'm not just the writer of a song or the writer of a blog post, or a writer of a book or a children's book. I'm actually the first reader. And so as I am, I am unearthing whatever the story is. And in particular, it's not just the story what ends up usually happening, and I'm sure you have this too, is when you get to the end or near the end, something starts to reveal itself that wasn't there at the beginning. And I've also learned because of the way songwriting is, and most of our writing is only for ourselves, it's very, very little that will find its. Its way out there. Maybe now with a. The way the Internet is, you could share anything and everything, but in the past, you'd write 300, 400, 500 songs and no one would hear it, and then they would hear one song. So you have to remember that not only you're the only, you're the first listener or reader of your work most of the time, you're the only one. And if you walk away inspired and encouraged and feeling like, oh, that touched me, it's enough, it's enough. And I think there's something about that is if you. If you strive to break your own heart or touch your own heart, in the end, you're more than likely going to touch. Someone else is going to relate to it, too. But you won't be striving to move them. You will be striving to be moved.
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B
It's just encouraging, I think, to include creativity in childhood to make sure kids have time for that. You can see how over time, you have to get your reps in. And it's so easy, I think, to outsource that creativity piece to artificial intelligence in this day and age. But, you know, when we were at the Homemakers conference, these kids get up and they do this kids choir, and there's like 200 of them, and you can see how they have lives there where they don't watch television. And it's so apparent, Rory. It was so apparent because everyone was so vibrant and talented. And you can see how when you invest in the crafts, whatever that is, whether that's music or whether that's actual crafts or. Or whatever the things are that it is so life enhancing. So anyway, and then if your kids have the skills, then, then they can move from one thing to the other. Like, we got a banjo yesterday, like for the first time ever. And we get this banjo. I'm so excited about it. And our kids could just pick it up. You know, I've got one kid that plays the guitar and because she's got this background in it, and she could just pick it up and pluck away some different things they're singing along with it and just some different hymns and stuff. And I thought, that's great. Gosh, you know, if. If you outsource those things. Yeah, because you can. You lose a lot along the way. When I think back on my own childhood, I remember the freedom of the neighborhood. Hours spent riding bikes with friends until the streetlights came on. That's what childhood should feel like. Movement, laughter, and connection. And that's exactly what our friends at Wound Bikes are. Are helping families rediscover. Womb makes the lightest, smartest and safest bikes on the market. Perfectly designed for kids, not just shrunken down adult bikes. Every detail matters. The balance. The brakes, the handlebars, the way the frame fits their growing bodies. You don't just learn to ride with boom. 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- [21:34]
So there's a lot to learn in your book about creativity and keeping at it and, and the relationships that you make along the way. One of the books that you talked about that has inspired you and I would love for you to talk about why. So you say you like to read biographies, but then you said some of the best writing you've ever read is a book called All over but the Shouting by Rick Bragg. You say it changed how I looked at my mother. You say that it gave you permission to love her and lift her up high. You say it is the benchmark for you. That book, words on those pages, the truth he wrote in black and white. The best of the best of a bad situation. That's good and it interesting. Sometimes you can read one thing and be like, this is a shift for me.
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A
Well, I say this a lot, that the things, the moments that change our lives are the little moments, the things that happen in passing that you don't think anything happened. We have situations that we, we see something big coming up and there's a, there's an opportunity. We go, this might be the one. And we're sort of watching for it and expectant and all that stuff. And quite often we're disappointed almost always. And instead something that happens in passing that you didn't even give a thought to changes the trajectory of your life and everyone around you. And that was one of those things with me when I was in a little town near here now in Mount Pleasant. It was a long time ago, before I even met Joey. And I was trying, I, I hadn't, we hadn't had health insurance or life insurance or anything for a long, long time. So I was trying to be responsible. So they kid. This lady was kind of a long story, but I'll try and condense it. She came and she was doing a checkup on me and she saw this book all over but the shout and setting, you know, near my desk or somewhere. And she said, have you read that book? And I don't know this lady. I said, no, no, I haven't read it. I said, my mom, my mom gave it to me and asked me to read it. You know, she's doing my arm with, you know, taking my blood pressure or something and she just stops in a really weird way. And then she, she goes over and picks up the book and she Says, you have to read this book. She said, your mother, your. Your mother needs you to read this book. She didn't know my mom, but she knew the book and. And God somehow impressed upon her. You know, how rare is that when someone looks in your eye, some stranger looks in your eye and says, you need to do this. So I did. I remember reading it the next day. I was in the. I was in traffic court or something. I was in a big room full of people, and I just popped it open and I started reading. And then there was a big problem because I was sobbing, crying within, you know, five pages, just. Just beside myself. Because he wrote like a songwriter with an economy of words. He wrote so well. He wrote differently. He wrote in a way that felt like this was the kind of writing that I understood. And so not only did it help me understand my mother and give me license and clarity of how to love her more and respect her more, it also set a tone so that I could find my own voice. I saw a voice that I recognized and helped unearth a voice inside of me. Even though it would be a number of years later before I would begin writing all of the books and all of the blogs, none of that would be if that lady, who. I don't know who she is, had not stopped checking my blood pressure and said, your mother needs you to read this. Isn't that wild?
- [25:09]
B
Yes.
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A
The smallest things are always the biggest.
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B
It's wild. I have read that in so many people's books, while they're where they'll talk about one person that intersected their life and in one person that gave them a ride when they didn't have a way to get to where they needed to go, or one person, when they called the hotline because they were in debt and they were so, so badly in debt that they just needed hope. And the person on the other end of the phone stayed on the phone with them extra. And you don't even know who it is. You don't know. And you just hope. And maybe they're going to pick up the book and be like, oh, that was me. But probably not. Probably not. And that we can just. We can be that for other people.
- [25:48]
A
Absolutely.
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B
But also our life can. Our life can change quickly. What are the odds, too, that she had read the book? Think about, I've thought, sometimes I wonder how many books there are in the world. You know, I mean, there's just an infinite amount of books. The fact that she had read it, I never even heard of it. The fact that she'd read it and said, no, you need to pick it up. You see, Talk about how that impacted your own writing and your own relationship with your mom. Really, your books are filled with a lot of little moments. So let's talk about another one. I want to talk about the Heartlight fundraiser. So this is another one. This is a little moment. You go to this fundraiser, fundraisers all the time, and you decide. So you and Joey are going to do this concert for someone that we like, who Highest Bitter or whatever it is. We're going to come in and do a concert for you for this fundraiser, which is a really cool idea. And you show up.
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A
So.
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B
So someone buys it and they're like, this is going to be a gift for my parents for their wedding anniversary, which is so sweet. What a special thing. Like, you know, I. I love that. I love that idea for a gift. I love that idea, that thoughtful part. But then you show up, right? You're like, you play all over the world, and you show up and you're like, there's a dozen people here. You know, I don't have a PA system. We're just going to sing a couple songs with a guitar, and then they're going to sing some songs.
- [27:03]
A
And.
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B
And that was another one. That was such a small thing. Like, you make this decision, we're going to give this. And then that relationship ended up flourishing and leading to all sorts of other opportunities.
- [27:15]
A
Yes, we. We end up having a television show ourselves through the years, which changed so many things. And most of that had to do with that particular moment. We were. We were at a fundraiser, and I.
- [27:30]
Joey and I just felt, God put it on our heart to say at the very end, what if we auction ourselves off and maybe they make a little bit of money and we'll just come and play a private show? We had never done that before. And then, of course, right after you do it, you realize, oh, we've got to fly again, somewhere far, far away to not be paid for it, you know, and your selfish nature chat, that's a challenge. But we showed up at it, I don't know, a few weeks later, a few months later, and it ended up being this really, really sweet coup family that become like, he's like a father to me. And we're very close. I spoke to them yesterday. They changed our lives. And I think we've impacted their lives. But my friend all the time says, you know, Rory, we're just here. We're all here just by a hair. These little bitty moments that forever Change everything. That was one of them. Yeah, we've got lots of them. All of us do.
- [28:27]
B
Yeah. And if you wouldn't have, if you like the sort of the what if question back to the beginning, if you wouldn't have said, we're going to auction ourselves off, you say in the coming months and years, we became close friends and made many trips back to see them. So, you know, the first one you're a little annoyed about. I totally get that. You know, when you've got a life of travel, you're like, oh, we have another travel thing that now we've committed to. But because you connected so well, you said you would keep going back, make trips to them, they would come see you. And you say they funded the crazy idea of making a weekly television show at home and turned the story of Josephine into a movie. Ray and Linda, they changed our lives. So many of them. So many. And, and so I guess you can be. What it reminds me is you could be living in your day to day and maybe be in the doldrums or maybe be frustrated or maybe feel in despair. And maybe your answer is coming today. That's actually my story. I was drowning with my little kids and I was like, I am not enjoying this. And a friend of mine at MOPS said, charlotte Mason says kids should go outside for four to six hours a day. That's it. One sentence changed my life in that conversation. And had I been sitting at a different table, had she not been researching that, you know, and here I sit. So you just. Your. Your answer might be coming today. Talk about Harlan. That's another one. So you talk about. Harlan is someone that you write songs with. Harlan Howard, your first publishing deal, and you talked about how he was saying country music is three chords in the truth. And you went and played a song for him. You play this song. It's called that's Good Enough for Me. It's about a farmer. I love this premise. A farmer who had never been outside the small rural country he lived in. He'd never seen the ocean. He'd never had a midnight rendezvous with a lover. But he'd watch the flowers grow in the garden and. And he'd known what it feels like to love and to be true to one woman. And that was good enough for him. So you say Harlan listened to the song and when it ended, he didn't say, I like that. He didn't say, I don't like that. He didn't say, I love it. He didn't say anything like that. He just Said, I love this guy. Like, the character in the song was a real person. That conversation changed my songwriting forever. Can you talk about why?
- [30:42]
A
Well, Harlan, because. So he's a legendary song, right? He passed away probably around 2000. So he was in his late 60s and 70s when I was there. He was a mentor to me. But he's one of the most famous country songwriters of all time. And so I happen to be able to be mentored by him through those years, those early years in Nashville. But when he said that, when he said, I love this guy now, he had had, you know, five marriages or more. He'd been through a lot himself, and he's quite a character. And so for him to say, I'm not this guy, but I love this guy, this guy impacted him and made him want to be like him. He didn't say the story. He. He really recognized that. That he didn't really talk about it. But I took it that. That that thing is a. Is as alive. That story is as alive as if someone told me about you, and I listened to you talk about something, and what you said and how you live changed me. Whether you know it or not, I recognize that not only were these characters that we were. That I had the opportunity to play or to bring to life, they were. They're real, you know, in a sense of the impact that they can have. And I began to realize it's why I loved the movie Forrest Gump so much, and other things is these characters, they're not real.
- [32:05]
But in lieu of. Especially in. In the world today, in lieu of grandparents and communities where you get to be together with a lot of people living life and gleaning from them, and they're sharing things with you. We're all spread out and all by ourselves. Most people are these days. These, unfortunately, these. These characters that we see unfortunately, I guess, are how we learn about life. They teach us the things that the grandparents and parents are teaching us, that the culture isn't. That the actual live culture isn't teaching us. And it's a. It's a good stand in, and it's always been there. And so I think for me, songwriting, that's. Again, I've written a lot of songs where the characters have changed me, and they're not even real, but they've. They've impacted me a lot. You know, we were talking. You were talking a little bit ago about television and the kids down there in Texas. Indy was on the couch with me last night, and I was singing, I'm going to be Singing at a wedding coming up this weekend. A friend of mine's getting married.
- [33:12]
Yeah, Joel's son.
- [33:14]
B
Yeah. It's not Joel's wedding.
- [33:15]
A
Yeah, Joel's son Daniel's getting married. So we're going down there. We leave tomorrow morning. And so I'm practicing and Indy's practicing with me. She's singing, you know, along with me. I'm going to sing an old Beverly Brothers song that Joey and I used to sing and another song, song that we had written called Born to Be youe Woman. And so Andy's practicing and she runs in the other room and comes out behind her back, she has her ukulele guitar and she's not showing it to me, but then she sits down, she wants to. She wants to play and practice and sing with me. And we haven't had a television in years and years. Indy, you know, when she was little, she had access to lots of movies and things like that, but we never had a television. And my life and so just India has a spark. I mean, your kids probably have this too, but my. My little one has a bit of a sparkle. I've just seen it grow and grow. That's hard to find today. And not because she has down syndrome, not because she's gushing with, you know, simple love, but because she's present and she's. She doesn't have any other options than to sit beside me and let me read with her and talk with her and us all be together all the time. And it's been life changing. You also start at the beginning. Like you're, you know, come from a songwriting, singing, music, background and then farming and all that's true. But what I'm really excited about personally is this. This, like you said, the outsourcing of our lives from our. From our entertainment to our food to our childbirth, to taking care of our old people to, you name it, to our education. Like, that is what I. I like, wake up every day pinching myself, so excited about reimagining those things. And that's been really, really fun to just to see where music has led to a farm. And a farm has led to a deeper life and more meaning. And everything that I thought mattered doesn't matter. Everything I thought matter doesn't matter. And all the little stuff that seemed like it didn't mean anything. It was just on its way to the big stuff. Boy, it's so good.
- [35:32]
B
So you talk about that. You talk about how you know when you're in this pursuit of fame and you're in this Spot where a lot of people aspire to be. You really look around and you see, is this really getting us to where we want to be? And I think it's really brave. You make certain decisions. You, you know, you kind of back out of stuff or you try it your own way. And I think that gives people courage to do that for themselves. So. Four words. I love this guy. Four words. Four words. You know, it changes how you write. It changes, I would imagine, how you write books as well as songs. Forrest Gump. Okay, so I've never seen it, but let me tell you why. Well, first of all, my parents were a little strict on what we could watch. But also. So my name is Ginny, but it's not Jenny. It's short for Virginia. I was named after my grandma, so it's Ginny with G I N N Y. And I think down south, people say Jenny. Like, Ginny doesn't matter. Like, it could be either they just go Ginny or what? I don't know.
- [36:30]
A
Down south.
- [36:30]
B
That's how they say it. But not up. Not where we live in Michigan. Everyone would know the distinction between the two names, Jenny and Ginny. But when Forrest Gump came out, it was like everyone started saying it to me. It was like, run, Jeannie, run. Or something like that. That's all I know about it. But, I mean, I would say that probably 4, 000 people have said that to me in my life. So, anyways, now I have to go watch it. But you talk about that movies are the same way. And so our books that these fictional characters. There is this movie. Did you see the one where I think it's Tom Hanks and he gets stuck on this island and he befriends his volleyball Wilson.
- [37:08]
A
Yeah.
- [37:08]
B
And then when they, like, at the end, they, like, part ways, he loses Wilson in the ocean. And you're like, you're so attached. And you're like. And he's screaming for the volleyball. And you're like, people can get attached to these inanimate objects. And it's all a story, but it teaches you a lot. So I love this guy. I love this guy. Like, the character in the song was a real person. I love that. Another small moment. Does anyone else feel like the holidays just showed up overnight? One minute we're picking pumpkins, in the next, I'm looking around my house thinking, wait, do we have enough guest towels? Where's the wreath from last year? And who am I still missing gifts for? If you are in that same last minute scramble wayfair has been such a lifesaver for us during this season. The holidays are here and you get what you need fast with Wayfair. From bedding and linens to decor for every room in the house, it is truly your one stop shop. We've been adding some final holiday touches to our home and I recently ordered a couple things from Wayfair. A beautiful neutral throw blanket for the living room and the sweetest little lamp for the kids reading nook. Everything came with fast, free hassle, free delivery and it all looked even better in person than online. It is amazing how one new piece can make your home feel warm, refreshed and ready for hosting. And if you're in the gifting mode, Wayfair really is the perfect place to shop for anyone on your list. Their selection is huge. Every style, every budget and I keep finding things I didn't even realize they carried like kitchen essentials, storage solutions and seasonal decor. To get everyone in the holiday spirit, now is the time to get your home ready so you can actually enjoy the holidays with your family. And instead of running around trying to catch up, Wayfair truly has everything your home needs this season. Get last minute hosting, essentials, gifts for your loved ones and decor to celebrate the holidays for way less. Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W A Y F A I R.com Wayfair Every style, every home how about the small moment about the Hymns album? So you say it wasn't one of our best albums. Not by a long shot. You say the arrangements were simple, the tracks weren't that unique. It lacked pretty much everything. The Hymns record was about as flawed as they come, but in another way it was filled with the magic the other albums didn't have. So you were talking about how, you know, sometimes you think like, this is. This is gonna be the one. I mean, you've written all these songs, right? And you. I mean, often I would imagine you think this is going to be the one and then sometimes they are the one where it gets sung on all of these stages by, you know, famous singers all over the world and then sometimes it doesn't go anywhere and you're excited, expecting it to. But this Hymns album was not one that you weren't necessarily. I don't. It doesn't seem like expecting to go where it did. And you said, we just made it, we shared it and that was it. And you're right, we sold a gazillion of them. Half a million, actually. A tremendous blessing for your family. And this is where the Grammy Award came from. So can you talk about that? I mean, that's a lesson about being faithful, I think, to what's on your heart. I mean that's basically what all of these things have been. We're going to do the fundraiser. Well, you know.
- [40:02]
A
Yes. So, you know, again, it's just, it's. It's this evolution of, of, you know, you just, just as. Again, like life is the same way. We're, we're trying. I wake up every day just like you're turning a page in the story you're writing. You are not sure what the next page holds.
- [40:23]
And in our lives, I'm also the first reader. I have no idea where this is going. Yeah, where this day is going, I think I know. But quite often I wake up the next day and I'm just blown away. So if you think about it logically, we went in the studio and we made a. Which, which was our last album. Joey was already sick. She had been struggling with cancer for a year and a half.
- [40:48]
She always wanted to make a gospel album, a hymns album. And so we went in the studio and, and it was a very quick. When I say it was. It lacked a lot. I just mean in the process because there are people that spend a fortune. This, we spent $15,000 or something on it. It was comparably, it was, was very fast moving and, and. But everybody did a wonderful job. But as a songwriter and a storyteller, I thought, well, these are all mostly all just songs everybody's heard a million gazillion times. There's nothing new. So it also lacked in that sense of you are not bringing anything new to anyone. That's what I would have thought. Although I was excited to make. Felt like perhaps you were doing the same thing everyone else has done. Well, the way God works is. It's not. We actually did bring something new. And what ended up being the new part was when you mix that album with a public storytelling of a well known singer getting cancer, going through cancer and, and walking through it all as a family to the very, very end and allowing everybody into a glimpse. That's what made the album different, was it wasn't like any other album because of the context of it, because it meant so much and the music is beautiful. It ended up, you know, turning into quite a beautiful record. But it, it's. It's more than what you see. And that was a combination of. You know, at first glance it might have seemed like the same as everything else. But by the time I had written, I went to the Grammy Awards and I was out there and Joyce, dad went with me and also our bus driver, Russell. And I was on stage and I told the story when I, when we won the Grammy Award, that the year before we had been nominated for a Grammy for another song, not for an album, but for a song. And we had set together in Joey's last couple weeks before she passed away. And she. We didn't win, but it was fun to watch. And it, but, but it caused her to think, I wonder if the album that we've been working on next year would be up for a Grammy Award like this one was. We'd never been before. And she said, wouldn't that be something if this new album, Hymns that's getting ready to come out, was up for a Grammy Award. And then she looked at me and she turned to me and she said, and just think, next year I'll know if we win before you will.
- [43:31]
So.
- [43:33]
It'S more than a record, you know, and, and I think that's what makes these things so special is we see things on the surface for what we think they are, but God is doing quite often much, much more than that. And that's what that record was.
- [43:49]
B
Yeah. And that sometimes, you know, it's like if there's moms listening in and they're, you know, this was not the one that took months and months to record. I mean, you. I've seen that even with our girls. So our girls have gotten to record a little bit in Nashville with this man named Jordan, who's a good friend of ours. And, and they were down there and Danny Goki had to come in during their little slot, you know, and he's like, I got this one bar. I've got to fix my song. Well, then they, you know, they spend the whole morning, you know, fixing the one bar. You know, you think it's just going to be a quick thing. And people spend so much time right on this song. Maybe I'm going to take his name out. I don't know. I'm like, is that too personal of a story?
- [44:26]
A
No, no.
- [44:27]
B
You know, they're, you know, they're. That's what you think of when you think about recording songs and you say you recorded this one in one day. You go in and you do these hymns in one day. And that's the Grammy Award winning one. So I think in our, in our everyday life, it might be the thing that's not as flashy or the thing that seems too simple to matter. And that's the one. That's the one that God takes and that God uses. So all of it, to me, is really inspiring and hope filled that, you know, there might be some more there than you imagined or things might turn around today or tomorrow, and you just don't know. You don't know that it's coming. All of these little moments. This might be the one, you know. And the hymn. The hymn album sold a gazillion. A gazillion. Gazillion copies.
- [45:12]
A
But more than that, it touched a gazillion hearts.
- [45:16]
B
That's right.
- [45:17]
A
And that's right. That's the only reason it sold a gazillion copies, is that it had touched a gazillion hearts. And we got to be part of that. And. And it's still touching hearts, which is special.
- [45:26]
B
And the hymn lyricists. I mean, my goodness, the girls were singing because we got this banjo right. So they're singing Amazing grace yesterday. And it's like, when We've been there 10,000 years bright shining as the sun We've no less days to see God's grace Than when we first begun. You're like, whoa. You know, I mean, no one had chat GPT back then. They were coming up with some good lyrics. Those hymn lyrics are so good.
- [45:50]
A
Absolutely.
- [45:51]
B
My favorite hymn is great Is Thy Faithfulness Morning by morning New mercies, new I see all I have needed Thy hands have provided Great is thy faithfulness Lord unto me. I mean, they're so. The lyrics are so good. Okay, all right, let's. Let's switch a little bit. Let's talk about education. So you talked about how I grew up. I got on the big yellow school bus. That's what everybody did. Nobody thought about it, and it was fine. And so then, you know, you talk about how with your older daughters, you started to see some holes, and you're like, this is not really working out for them. And I. I think maybe. I mean, my story is kind of similar. I didn't really know there was another way. But when you are exposed to that, like, oh, maybe there's some alternatives. Maybe we could try this differently. It really expands and often expands into all the other things you were talking about earlier, like home birth. And it expands because it's. It's you taking control of your own life and learning in time that you have what it takes to do that. I think there's a lot of fear about home education or. Or anything alternative because you think, do I have what it takes? So can you talk about your path there in changing your mindset on education and what words of advice you have for today's families.
- [47:04]
A
Well, back when my older girls were still in high school, I read John Taylor Gatto's book Dumbing Us down. And it, it was, it was enlightening. And the reason was it's, you know, there are times when you could read a book that has some radical thoughts and just think, okay, well that's some radical thoughts, that's different. But when it resonates and you realize it's truth, that's a different thing. It's compelling and convicting. And so I found myself wanting to do something about it. Just really that back then, that was, gosh, 2003 or so when, when that happened. And so we started homeschooling Heidi and Hopi somewhere in that. And then it, it just, we didn't have what it took. Mostly because.
- [47:53]
Especially back then, I didn't, I was trying to figure out how to. This is clearly the right thing, something like this, a different opera, a different option than the schools that were available for my girls at the time here, especially in the public schools. But I didn't, you know, I wanted that to happen without actually.
- [48:13]
It being too dis. Inconveniencing of our lives. I was trying to figure out how to fit it in and the kids didn't necessarily love it. The other thing was, is that I didn't have actually any model for anything larger than that. I wasn't questioning anything other than the school system, the public school system. So I didn't, I didn't have a whole view. I didn't know other people really who, who I could spend enough time with to really understand it and look at it. And so my older girls found their way to a private school ultimately over the next couple of years. And that ended up being okay. Not great, but okay. Better than what it was, but not what it could be. So by The Fast forward 10 years or whatever, whenever Indiana was born, Joey and I, by then we were clear. We were complete radicals and everything we had already seen, oh, we're doing everything different. We're just how. Where our food comes from and our entertainment comes from, everything was radically changing. So we decided early on that Joy was going to homeschool Indiana. And, and again, not, not because she had down syndrome, but because she was our child and we loved her and we wanted the best for her and we couldn't, we couldn't imagine that anyone had better intentions for her than us. And I really, like Rebecca has Your book, your homeschooling book, which, which you may have a couple of them, but the book, I really love it. It just says if you're doing it, you're doing it right.
- [49:46]
B
Right.
- [49:47]
A
Sometimes those. Some people would have a problem with that, I'm sure that idea, but I don't. I don't at all because it. It really feels like. Or it felt like at the time. And we don't need to know how, we just need to know we want to. And it's important. And so unfortunately, by the time Joey passed away, she passed away when Indiana was 2. I had to come up with another option, but it was already clear to me that we weren't going to do the normal route. And so I ended up building a school, a schoolhouse here at the farm, hiring a teacher and having a dozen children and kind of creating curriculum, finding our way as we went with the. With the goal of I want Indiana's education opportunities to be everything it can be. But while she's doing it, since we're blessed enough to have a schoolhouse here, what if there are other parents that are looking for the same thing? So we went down that journey together for a long time for like six years, until I finally, I married the teacher. And then now that was full circle back, which again when I woke up one day and realized that Rebecca is homeschooling Indiana. And that's what Joey wanted, that somehow God had taken this. Not only this education vision that God had given us, but this love story that I was been part. I had been part of and let me continue to be part of. More love and indy. And it's just again, just wandering around, pinching myself. I'm sorry. So blessed and grateful. So that's the fast version of the. Of our education and how we got to where we are. And it's. They are so excited this morning, Indian Rebecca, to get over and start doing homeschool. They're so excited. They're. They just. Yesterday they had too many things going on and they weren't able to do the things they needed to do. And so it's like so excited to work because their work isn't work. It's love and play and joy and learning. It's so fun.
- [51:48]
B
You use this phrase curriculum of life, and I thought that was a really good one because that's what's happening. You know what's happening when you're at the Homemakers Conference. Well, you're exposed to all of these crafts and Indiana gets to be in the kids choir and, you know, she's going to sing on stage with you and then you're going to go to this wedding. And it is, it's, you use a phrase, life schooling, which I like so much more than unschooling. I think unschooling has a negative connotation to it, but it's basically like life schooling. All of the things that you do, you're going to learn through. And you talk about how a lot of it happens outside. You write, you know, the kids, they come to the, you know, if they're going to come to the one room schoolhouse, it's going to be multi age. They're going to go outside and you write. It sounds ordinary, but it's actually pretty amazing. All the things that they learn out in God's creation. And you say, I'm trying to make decisions now that will help her learn to run and jump and skip and mostly fly.
- [52:40]
A
That's good.
- [52:41]
B
I think that book would change anybody's life. Because the key is, and the way that I think it relates to this thought of you're doing it right just by doing it, which is what I believe. I think the pushback sometimes comes, Rory, because there are abusive families out there. And so in that case, I would say that that family is not homeschooling. Like, that's not what homeschooling is. But you know, you're gonna change over the years and you're gonna do things that you know, and you may even wish I would have done this differently. It's going to ebb and flow often week by week or month by month. But that's how life is. And so you are, your kids have a front row seat to crafting a really good life. But the point is, with John Taylor Gatto's book, which I would recommend everybody read, it's six chapters.
- [53:22]
A
It.
- [53:22]
B
You would read it in an hour or two. It's 10 bucks. It's called Dumbing Us Down. The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling. And the key there is that there are hidden curriculums. And it's truth. Because he was in the public school system for over 30 years and he won awards being a teacher. But he'll say, well, kids are going to learn apathy. They're going to learn that someone else tells them what they're supposed to do with their lives. They're going to learn that they have no privacy, that, you know, they're going to learn all of these things. And so because it's hidden curriculum, all you have to do is take your kids out of that and then they're not exposed to the hidden curriculum. And that's why, you know, if there's all these different ways that you can homeschool, you could be a Charlotte Mason homeschooler. You can be, you know, a classical homeschooler. You can be a mix of all the things you can in, you know, be passion driven or whatever the situation is. And so I think people would be concerned, well, maybe we might do it wrong. We're going to pick the, the wrong choice. But if you read that book dumbing us down, it gives you good insight of what you're stepping out of. And then John Taylor Gatto says, there are as many ways to become educated as there are fingerprints. There you go.
- [54:31]
A
It's good.
- [54:32]
B
It's life changing.
- [54:33]
A
We right before we went to Texas, our, our big lesson that was over a couple of days time, you know, she's doing, she's learning lots of things. Rebecca's working with her on all kinds of things in the schoolhouse. But to me, the big lesson was we have in the little hen house, we have Indy's always gathered eggs, but we have one mama hen who has had a standoff with Indiana. And Indy's really afraid to reach underneath of her because she keeps pecking her. And so we'll send her out with her little basket in the morning and then she won't come home for a long time or she'll come home with three or four eggs that are in, that are in the boxes that she can get to. And I'll say, what about, did you get all of them? And she'll kind of look at me and say, mostly.
- [55:20]
And then she says she won't let me get there, so I'll walk back out with her and, and then just, you know, I'll try and help her. It's like, look, she's not going to hurt you. Even if she pecks you, she's not going to hurt you. And she's so afraid, she just like standing there and she's like reach just like, oh, but, but, but, and so I, you know, a couple of days, you know, I finally just chew them all out of the way. And then little by little, Indies, Indy now she, now that mama knows who's, who's mama and, and it's been great fun. But for me, those little things that don't mean anything are big things. They're really big things. Or if we go to the grocery store, I don't know if Rebecca does this, but I do it a lot. Within the. We went to Hobby Lobby Recently. And I said, okay, what you need? She said, well, I need a new hook for my. She's doing. Making a bunch of little. These little things that go underneath of your potholders. I love potholder room. And I said, do you know where it is? And she said, anyway, I'll just. Wherever we go, I'll just, you know, kind of like be an old man in the mall waiting on a bench. Not because I'm lazy, but I want to give her the opportunity to go find it all and to take my card and I'll watch from here. There. Maybe other kids can do that easier at 6 or 7 or 8 or 10 or whatever, but Indian 11, there's nothing more fun for her than. Than for you to give her responsibility. She wouldn't get any of that in school. And I wouldn't think about it as a parent. We would be. We'd pick her up from school and we'd be busy doing things. We wouldn't be thinking that we're teaching while we're living.
- [56:57]
B
It's ownership.
- [56:59]
A
It's really fun.
- [57:00]
B
It's ownership. What do you need from Hobby Lobby? I got to talk to the founder of Hobby Lobby, actually pretty recently.
- [57:05]
A
Wonderful.
- [57:05]
B
And there was a new Hobby Lobby that just got. Was put in by our house. And they have the best cross stitch kits. That's what I say. They're like a $29. And you can teach your child how to cross stitch. But yeah, what a. What a piece of ownership to go in and say, what is it that you need? And for her to know. I need this hook for my crochet or for my loom or whatever it is. They know. They know what the next step is, and I think that's really powerful. The curriculum of life. I want to talk about one last thing before we wrap it up. You talked about this Bib and Buckle festival. So you have this festival. It comes to your house, you know, and you're like, the one year there's 2,500 people and you say it rained cats and dogs. Pretty much flooded us out halfway through. But in the end, it was our favorite festival of all, the one we remember most. And I have to say that when I came to the Homestead Festival for the first time, it rained cats and dogs. I tell people it was like a monsoon, but I don't. I think a monsoon is, like, on a coast, you know, I mean, it rained so hard, and there were the best puddles, the best puddles I've ever been exposed to in my whole life. And the kids Run amok. And I. I was running and jumping in them and. And I. It made it to. So memorable. It's like, I hope every year there's all this weather. I can imagine as a someone who's running something that's one of the biggest fears is, oh, what if we get rained out? But then it turned out to be tremendous.
- [58:26]
A
Well, when we knew it, then, you know, we worried about it. Year. This was our fourth year this year, so we worried about what if we get a huge rain and we just get rained out. I mean, there could be worse things that happen, but a big rain on a farm would be a big deal. So one of the. There are a couple of blessings that happened. First off, it happened so we had hundreds and hundreds of cars stuck. Our field is still not recovered. It's been six or seven months, and people are. It was a disaster and the greatest fun in the world. Most people really enjoyed it more than the other festivals. But even more than that, it took something that before that moment always manifested itself in the back of our minds as fear.
- [59:11]
B
Right?
- [59:12]
A
And in a moment, it's no longer fear. It doesn't exist anymore. Now it's. Now it's fun. And as a matter of fact, my nephew and I are working on this video. So our promo video, which we're almost done with, is, you know, year whatever it was 2022, just sunny. And all the festival going on 2023, it's another just like the prettiest festival. We'd have little drops of rain and think, 24, same thing, just beautiful. Beautiful, but 25 beautiful, beautif. And it just rains. And it shows people losing their minds in the. In the, you know, in the puddles and kids and swimming across the fields and cars being pulled out. And then our motto this year is Homestead Festival 2026, pray for rain. Yes, it's the opposite. Not you really want rain, not really, but if it comes, that would be fun. And it has a way of diffusing and changing the whole deal. And I feel like that's a lesson in life. You know what I mean? It feels like that. It feels like the thing we're the most afraid of is probably going to make our life richer.
- [60:17]
B
Yeah. So fun and so much problem solving and so much coming together as a community. I mean, I was seeing these tractors, Rory, that were like, chained up to these campers and just pulling them out. There was mud everywhere. Everywhere there was mud. Some of the kids that were helping to like, help the cars get out, they were covered with mud. Head to toe.
- [60:37]
A
That's right. Yes.
- [60:38]
B
Could not be more memorable. I know we were talking about, like, next year, and I was like, out. Same thing. I'm like, I would hope for rain. I mean, that made it so fun and so memorable. The greatest fun in the. In the world. Rory, what an honor. It is an honor to know you and to learn more about your story and you show so many important life lessons. First of all, you can do a lot with your life, and also that these small moments, they can be big turning points for you. And so look for them and. And expect them. Expect that God will. Will do that and take your story and do more with it than you could ever ask or imagine. We always end our show with the same question. I know we're running out of time, so we can make it real brief, but we always end with. What's a favorite memory from your childhood? That was outside.
- [61:22]
A
When I was a little boy, we used to walk down to. Well, I lived on a farm, in a farmhouse just for a short time in fourth grade. And my brothers and sisters and I would walk down and fish in a little creek right next to it. And that was one of my favorite memories when I was young.
- [61:37]
B
It's the simple things, fishing. I love it. Rory, thank you so much for being here.
- [61:41]
A
Thanks for having me. Jenny, good to see you.