← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 649: When Lost Dreams Become Sacred Paths | Mikella Van Dyke, Chasing Sacred
00:54:19
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- [00:01]
A
This holiday season, there's no better place to get cozy holiday gifts for all your people than Aerie. From soft sweaters to everyday intimates and activewear, Aerie has the comfiest pieces made for the real you. And don't forget to treat yourself too while you're at it. You've earned it. Find your nearest Aerie store or shop online@aerie.com Give Love Real. Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Erich. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and I have a friend that I met in person which is so special. Micaela Van Dyke is here. Welcome, Mikella.
- [00:38]
B
Hi Jenny. I'm so excited to be here and it's so cool.
- [00:42]
A
We met in person and I, you know, and then we got to talking and it was like, oh, will you be a great guest on the podcast? And so you said yes. And here you are. So you have got. I got your book in the mail. It's called Chasing Sacred. So we're trying to get kids outside and obviously that helps them with all their face of their development and some of the listeners are interested in the spiritual side. So when you take your kids outside, it helps with a lot of things. There's a lot of things that you can tie larger lessons, you know, you can learn larger lessons from. And so we're going to be talking about the Bible study method today that you use. It's called Inductive Bible Study. But more than that, about all of these connections that you've made over your life. It was like actually an incredible book. Micaela, you were like, it would be something like my husband pursued me with these engraved Easter baskets. And you're like, and God pursues us too. You know, I was like, it was like every single thing there was like this tie in and it just reminded me of how that's how we're supposed to live. If we live in a hands on way, we can teach our kids hands on lessons. So you have got a really interesting story. You grew up as a missionary kid, so can you give us a little bit of the overview? You grew up in Thailand.
- [01:49]
B
Yes. So Jenny, I'm first of all so excited to be here. I love listening to your podcast. My kids and I are having done the Thousand Hours Outside challenge and we just are such avid listeners and learners from you. So that's what I wanted to say first. But yes, I did grow up in Thailand and I was a missionary kid growing up and it's shaped so much of who I am and so it was really, really interesting. But my parents are actually Bible translators, which means that we lived on the border of Thailand and Myanmar in a refugee camp when I was little. And then actually we ended up having to flee the refugee camp because mortars were being shot nearby. And so it was just too dangerous for us to live there anymore. And so we ended up moving. And I grew up most of my life in Chiang Mai, Thailand. And so that shapes a lot of the book where I talk about the importance of God's Word. And I think it shapes a lot of why I have such a reverence for God's word, because I saw my parents sacrifice over and over and over again to get God's word into a different language.
- [02:55]
A
So does living there help them to understand the language enough to do the translation? Is that kind of the point?
- [03:01]
B
Yeah. So actually they had to go and immerse themselves in the culture and then also learn the language. And so when we were little, they were both learning the language. They were actually engulfed, you know, engulfed in the language. And then once they learned the language, then they could help with lead national translators translate it. And so they have. They know quite a few different languages. My al. My mom also knows Greek, and then she's been studying Hebrew. And so there's just a lot that goes into linguistics.
- [03:29]
A
Yeah, yeah. And then the cultural piece, too. Did you learn another language?
- [03:34]
B
So I know Thai. Not very well anymore. But growing up, I went to an international school and we spoke English, but my best friend is still and was Thai.
- [03:44]
A
Oh, what an experience. Okay, so then you come back to the United States in ninth grade. In the ninth grade, and they're like, hey, you're gonna go to the public school.
- [03:55]
B
That was horrible.
- [03:56]
A
It is really interesting, though, Michelle, to have a completely different childhood than most of the other kids that are at the school with you, to have a completely different childhood, I would imagine, than most of your friends. Even now. I, you know, I would. I don't know how it is, but, like, exactly. But I mean, are you finding other people that were like, yeah, I grew up, you know, in another continent as missionary kids. Do you find those people because they're all kind of attracted together, or for the most part, have your friends had completely different life experiences than you?
- [04:25]
B
I would say as an adult, everyone has had completely different life experiences than me. And so I would say it was really isolating. They call this, like, the third culture, kid. So basically, you don't fit into Thailand, but then you also don't fit into the US and so you feel very alone, isolated, and like nobody understands you because you're not quite American, but you look it and then you're not quite Thai. Right. Because you're not Thai. And so it really came with quite the identity kind of crisis that I still am unpacking to this day. And I would say a lot of different people that I do know that grew up with me also feel the same way. Like as an adult, they're like, wow. It came with all these implications that I didn't even realize. And so it made me feel really isolated, alone. And I think that is actually what led me to study God's word in such an in depth way because I just felt like I couldn't find a bearing on my identity here in the U.S. wow.
- [05:21]
A
So what was that like when you show up in the ninth grade? I mean, you had gone to international school, so it's not like school is new. But what was it about entering into the American high school that was. I mean, I'm sure there was a lot of things, but what were some of the things that were so radically different?
- [05:36]
B
So a lot of pop culture was really different. It was really, really hard because we didn't grow up with a lot of money. And so thinking through like a lot of what you talk about on our podcast, on podcast, we had a lot of time outdoors, but we also had a lot of time just doing nothing. We were bored kids because. And so it led to really a lot of imagination. But I think like, when I came into this American high school, it was like, okay, everyone had a lot of money, they were very busy. I mean, it was completely different upbringing than me. And I remember watching the movie Mean Girls later, but I actually spent my first day in the high school in the bathroom crying with my lunch. And so later I watched Mean Girls and she does that in the movie. And I' like, oh my goodness. I actually did that as well. I just sat in the bathroom with my lunch and cried because I just, I felt like I was so not understanding the culture. I wasn't understanding like the idioms. You know, I talk about that in my book. Just some things like in America we just say. And I was not getting it because I wasn't surrounded. I was always surrounded by international kids. I wasn't surrounded by primarily American kids.
- [06:41]
A
Well, yeah, because one of the examples you gave was someone who said, can I get a rain check? And you're like, is it gonna rain? I looked out the window, doesn't seem like it's gonna rain. I don't get that, you know, you have to ask somebody else, what are your parent. What did your parents, what do they. What did they think about that? You know, it's like, here they are, they're living out God's calling, they're doing this incredible work, and yet it's hard for the kids in some ways.
- [07:06]
B
I think now, looking back, they talk a lot about how they wouldn't have moved us as much and they would have just rooted us in Thailand and not brought us back to America, and they brought us back Thailand and they brought us back to America because they didn't really realize how dis it was to each of our identities. And so looking back, they actually have a lot of regrets in that way. But at that time, it was the norm. And so I think that's what you talk about too, a lot on A Thousand Hours Outside is like, what is the cultural norm? And how do we push against that? And so I think for them, cultural norm as a missionary family was you're sacrificing everything for God. And so you're on the mission field and then it called you to come back home, raise, support, and then go back again. Looking back, they're like, that was really unhealthy. And we wish we had just kept you guys in Thailand, kept you there, and then moved you once you hit college. So it was really confusing doing that bounce back and forth, back and forth.
- [07:58]
A
Yeah. Interesting life experience. Very, very unique. Probably a very small percentage of people have one like that. Mikaela. So then what happens is you're also really interested in dance. Like, this is your love, this is your passion, and. And you're interestingly. Okay, so you do all these things that are just slightly different, you know, Like, I'm sure there are some other people that are doing it, but you get married and you're like, look, I'm really into dance, I want to pursue this. And her husband's like, well, I've got this business I'm working on in New Hampshire. So you're like, well, I'll live in New York and you live there, and then we'll get together on the weekends. It'll be a lot of fun. So you do that for a couple years and then you got pregnant. And actually, I think this is a really interesting inflection point for a lot of women. So for some women, that's their goal. They're. They're wanting that. That I've got friends, like, as soon as they got married, they were ready to have babies. And then some people are waiting and then sometimes it happens on accident and you're pregnant and you have to give up your dreams of this dancing. Is that kind of when Chasing Sacred came into the picture? Because this is a big part of what you do. You've got a blog, a Bible study, MM's new book, it's called Chasing Sacred. Learn how to study Scripture to pursue God and find hope in him. Is that where that shift happened?
- [09:09]
B
It is. So basically, what happened is exactly what you said we did. We had our own little marriage where on the weekends, we just had a great time. And then I would go back to New York City. But it all fell flat when I found out I was pregnant, which wasn't planned. And so I had to move home to New Hampshire after two years of kind of having this wedded bliss of fun. And I remember it just settling that I couldn't dance anymore. And because that identity crisis there I was already struggling with not feeling like I belonged. And then you have this whole nother upset where you've rooted so much of your identity in dance, and now you're told, okay, I'm pregnant. I can't pursue this professional career anymore. And so what I did was I started digging into the Word during actually those seasons of, like, downtime and being at home and then also nap time, and I would just open my Bible and I found so, so much comfort in the pages of Scripture. And so naturally, I was like, I just need to share what I'm learning. I was so down. I was so depressed. And yet here the word of God was speaking to my heart in such beautiful ways. And so I would start posting, and I ended up growing this online ministry called Chasing Sacred, where I shared what I was learning in God's Word. And then it led me to get my master's in theology. And then I ended up just teaching all these women how to study the Bible because it was actually growing up all my life so familiar with scriptures. It was actually new to me, the inductive Bible study method. And because it blew my mind so much, and I was so incredibly moved by, like, okay, studying in context, who was the author, who was it written to? And even the idea of literary genre in the Bible, this was new to me. And so because it was, I ended up just teaching as many women as I could. I would hold little, you know, workshops in my home. I would tell my church, like, please, can you just give me some people to listen to me talk about how to study the Bible? And so I say in the book, but I just had so Much gusto and passion, and maybe not as much, you know, on the side of, like, actual reputability in this. And I just started telling everybody.
- [11:15]
A
What's so interesting is the fact that you. I don't want to find the exact wording is you are talking about how you, like, you grew up with the Bible and you learned all the Bible stories. You had worded it so well. Let me see if I can find it. Oh, here, I found it. You say I was raised on every Bible story, and I learned to recite verses when I was a young child. As an adult, the biggest obstacle to my desire to go deeper was actually my assumption that I already knew. Like, I already knew it all. I already know a lot about the Bible. I already know how to study it. Study it. But you say you quickly found out that you still had much to learn. Can you give a message to the mama Kella who. Who is having a baby? So maybe it's the first baby. Maybe it's the fifth baby. Maybe it's the seventh baby. I think sometimes, not always, but sometimes when that pregnancy comes, you do feel like some of your dreams die.
- [12:05]
B
Yeah.
- [12:06]
A
And it's not, you know, it's not even just like the first one. And, you know, you wanted to be a dancer, and now you can't. It might be that you are already established yourself. And then there's, you know, the unexpected pregnancy that comes five years later or something down the road, and you feel like your dreams are dying. But in this case, it's almost like God. I don't know if replaced is the right word, but it's like he gave another thing. What would be your message to a mom who. And you use the word resentful.
- [12:36]
B
Yeah.
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A
And that's relatable.
- [12:38]
B
Yeah. No, I was angry. I was angry at God. And I think. I think what happened is that I had to be really honest with God. And I talk a lot about this. Like, honesty with God and is really where intimacy grows. And so I would be really honest, and I'd be like, I'm so angry at you, God. I wanted to dance. I wanted all these things, and you allowed this to happen. And so, in a way, I just was really real. And so I was real with how I felt. And then what God did with that was he birthed something new in me. He birthed a new dream and a new desire. And what I realized is that my heart was always aligned with motherhood in a way that I never could have perceived. And in motherhood, I found so much joy and Such a calling. But I think if I hadn't gone there with God and said, like, I'm so angry, I'm all these things, I couldn't have been so open to the fact that he transformed my heart through the hard and through the denial and through all of these different experiences and feelings of like, I don't know what I'm going to do. I mean, motherhood is really hard. I have five kids and I had them all close and age, and I felt alone so much of the journey. And yet God used so much of that to grow me in ways I could have never imagined.
- [13:53]
A
You spent a lot of time outside. A lot of. A lot of frogs.
- [13:56]
B
So many frogs. We have, actually, we have a dirt bike track. I was just listening to one of your podcasts, but we live in a family commune. Like we all live.
- [14:05]
A
Oh, my. Jessica Smart.
- [14:06]
B
Yes. So cool. So we, like, my kids dirt bike to their cousins every single day. Every single day. So.
- [14:14]
A
Well, how neat is that? Who else lives there?
- [14:17]
B
So I have two sister in laws on the road and my mother in law on the road. And we have like this. We live on a pond. And then in the back of my house is a pond. And so they'll dirt bike to my house and fish, or they'll dirt bike to the other pond and fish, or they're just like dirt biking to all the houses. They'll come to my dirt bike track. And then, I mean, they walk to each other's houses, they're biking to each other. I mean, it's just like when I was listening to Jessica's, I was like, oh, we actually live on in a family compound.
- [14:41]
A
Isn't that interesting, though? McKella, like, her book is called Come On Home. And here you're talking about how you feel like you don't fit. You're this third culture kid. And yet God did provide you that.
- [14:51]
B
Yes. Yeah.
- [14:52]
A
He provided you a place to come home to. That's so cool. Gosh. And so the kids just have a lot of freedom. That's amazing. You know where you ended up landing? Because you were really against it. You were like, I am not living in New Hampshire. I'm pursuing these dreams. And so I think the point is that sometimes we just can't really imagine. I just read. I can't remember where I read it, but it was like, well, if we always are asking God for specific things, what about the things that he has for us that we could never have imagined?
- [15:20]
B
Oh, so good. I feel like that's my entire life.
- [15:23]
A
Yeah, I'M like, if I could only attribute that to an author because I did read that in someone's book. Was it yours? I don't even know whose it was.
- [15:29]
B
Well, one of my favorite quotes is actually God can do more with my surrender than I could ever do with my control. And and that has always been one of my favorites because I think so often I've tried to control the narrative of my life and I found so much disappointment because I had so many expectations. And I heard once, like, expectations are premeditated disappointments. And I think that has been really true for my own life is like, I have this one idea and if it doesn't fit into that idea, I'm disappointed. And yet God had something so much grander for my kids, for my family life.
- [16:03]
A
He had this amazing for those nieces and nephews, if there are nieces, like whoever's there, the cousins, whoever. The cousins are like, they fit into the story too, right? The fact that they get to grow up and dirt bike to your house. So yeah, those are the things that you can't ever imagine are coming down the road when your dream dies and you're really resentful. And I think very naturally so, because you've poured your whole childhood and this is your love, this is your first love. Is dance.
- [16:27]
B
Yes, exactly. No, I definitely that way.
- [16:31]
A
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- [20:44]
B
Yes. Yeah, I think it was like you said, like all of these dreams dying on top of each other. So it was like, okay, my cultural dreams. I moved to New Hampshire and it's very monocultural here, so I didn't fit in as far as, like, there wasn't Thai food, there wasn't culture, there wasn't different nationalities for my kids to grow up with. But then also on top of that, then it was like the dream of dance, which is exactly where I had rooted my identity at the time. But then out of that birthed, like chasing sacred. It birthed my master's in theology. It birthed like, speaking and being an author and just all of these things that now I can do like, you know, from the comfort of my home with five kids, because it's also my dream to be a mom. And so I think you can get so stuck on this one path and realize I want this. And like, I love being a mom and I also love writing and I also love, you know, getting to be on your podcasts and different things like that. But I can do it out of the comfort of my own home, which is amazing.
- [21:38]
A
Yeah, God knew. God knew all along. I talked to yesterday, Ellie Holcomb, she's a singer and she's got a devotional. And we were talking about the verse that says, in all your ways, acknowledge Him. Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways, acknowledge him and he will make your path straight. And just about that beautiful desire for straight paths. And like, when you feel like things are really confusing and you're resentful and your whole life has been upended, and you thought it was going to go one way, and now it's completely going another way that he's going to straighten that path out for you, and you don't know what that's going to look like, but that's also kind of exciting and. And I just think it's really relatable. And I think it's important that you wrote about it. And so if people are struggling with that, you write. The reality began to set in that I couldn't dance anymore. I had always been a huge dreamer, and I knew that there was one thing I wanted to accomplish in life, and that was to be in New York City as a contemporary dancer. I worked extremely hard to become that. Hours in the studio, choreographing, rehearsing, performing on stage. And then you didn't get to do it.
- [22:37]
B
Mm. Yeah. I love that about what you said about Ellie Holcomb, because I write about this in my book, too, but I think I talk about how in the scriptures it talks about. I always thought, okay, there's a right way to do things or a right job to choose or a right path and all of these things, which it is. But I talk about how it's not so much about the right way, but about the righteous way. For me, it's about following what God says in his word. And he does. He straightens those paths, but it's not so much. I think sometimes we get hung up on, is this the exact job I'm supposed to have? Right. Something so specific. But I do think it's about just really following in the way that God has and trusting.
- [23:15]
A
Trusting that his path. He's going to straighten the path out in the way that's best for you and for a lot of other people. There's a lot of intersecting stories there. We'll go stick with dance for just one quick more second. Because you also danced for the Princess of Thailand.
- [23:30]
B
Oh, yes.
- [23:33]
A
That's fun.
- [23:34]
B
Oh, it's so funny. Yeah, I talk about that in my book and how. How the Princess of Thailand came. She actually came really late. And so we had to, like, hold off, because royalty is everything in Thailand. And so we pushed off and pushed off and pushed off our dance performance until she could finally arrive. But I just remember it was so funny because we had to, like, crawl on our hands and knees to her because there's just so many different things, culturally in Thailand that you're supposed to do. So we, like, weren't allowed to, like, look up, and then we, like, crawled back, and it was just. It was an interesting experience.
- [24:05]
A
You ever look back, you're like, this is wild. This is about, like, no one. You are probably gonna meet one other person in your lifetime here in America. That's like, I can relate to that. One time, I crawled in front of a princess, too, and then crawled back out, you know, like Nevad. I mean, it is one of those things. It's like those are the tensions in life, right, where you're like, you know, this really. I struggled with my identity, and also I got to dance for the. And perform for the Princess of Thailand. What an experience. Unbelievable. Okay, let's. Let's change topics here just a little bit. The interesting thing was thinking about, or one of the things I was thinking about as I was reading the book was then you have these five kids, and their life experience as kids is. Is pretty wildly different than yours. However, then I learned that your husband had started this orphanage in Guatemala. So your kids have actually gotten to go do a lot of missions, work, and travel there quite a bit of times. And so you say it's a beautiful weaving together of your story with their story. Can you talk about that orphanage in Guatemala?
- [25:04]
B
Yeah. So when I met my husband, he actually was just beginning to start this orphanage in Guatemala. It's called Little Lambs International, and he started it with a board of directors there. Anyways, it's really beautiful because that was one of the things that attracted me to him because he had this international experience, but also that he had a desire to do missions there. So, anyways, why Micaela?
- [25:25]
A
Like, where did that come from?
- [25:26]
B
Yeah, I think it came from his upbringing, his Christian upbringing. His parents actually really were really good about giving him a big worldview. So they traveled quite a bit. They hosted missionaries, they constantly talked about it. And so when he got older, he traveled a ton, and then it was really interesting, but he just felt like he needed to help. And so he ended up starting this orphanage in Guatemala. And he is a builder, and so he does a lot of the construction end of it, and it's still thriving to this day. I Mean, it's a beautiful property. And we bring our kids every single year off, either whether we bring all five of them or sometimes when I've been pregnant, my husband will bring the older two. And it is one of the most growing up experiences I think for them that they have every year because they go and they work really, really hard and they're just immersed in this other culture. They don't have the conveniences that we do here in the United States. And it's honestly just time for them to grow and see a different perspective and see a different culture. And I think it's one of our favorite things that we do as a family because then all year long we're praying every night for these people. They really have that hands on experience that their worldview is just shaped so much differently because of these week long trips that we do every single year to the same location in Guatemala.
- [26:41]
A
Wow, what a thing. It's just a God's hand is in all of it. You wrote this legacy is one way I can see how God cares about my history and its impact on my kids lives. So it's called Little Lambs International. I'm sure I can probably put a link in the show notes to people.
- [26:59]
B
Yeah. Jalapa, Guatemala. It's near there. So San Pedro. Yeah.
- [27:04]
A
Wait, say it one more time because it cut out.
- [27:05]
B
Oh, yeah. So it's near Jalapa, in San Pedro, Punula. And it's called Little Lambs International. So actually we've had quite a few families now come down with their kids and honestly they all want to come back. We. They were like, it was so life changing. So just for their family.
- [27:22]
A
That's interesting, Michaela, because I was thinking about it. We have not ever done anything like that as a family. I've actually never done that. And my mom, she did a missions trip to Peru as an adult like in her 50s and was like, everybody should do this in their life. It just does, you know, I mean, actually sounds so stupid to say she's like. And everybody says this. Right. Like it does a lot for you.
- [27:44]
B
Yeah.
- [27:44]
A
As you're serving.
- [27:46]
B
Oh, it does so much. It changes the person that's going so much. And that's what we've seen over the years is they come back with this reset and this different perspective on life here in the US and honestly the, the comforts we have and also just the abundance we live in. I think about Michael Easter's book the Comfort Crisis and just how life changing that was for me. But I mean, he points out Just so many ways that sometimes we just need a reset here in the US on all of the comforts that we have. Right?
- [28:15]
A
Yeah. Yes, you even talked about that. You said one of the things you noticed when you came home from Thailand was you're like, there are so many different things in this grocery store. You know, there's all these different brands and things that you can buy. So I thought about that when I was reading about Little Lambs because oftentimes I think kids do missions trips like with a youth group or maybe like in college. But to do it as a family, you don't hear people talking about that that much. So actually I was wondering about that. That's, that's fantastic.
- [28:44]
B
I know you could come. It's, it's honestly such your kids ages are great too for it. I think it's such a bonding experience. You leave like in such a way that you're like so bonded as a family and you come home and you have this unified mission. And I think what I try to do with my family with five kids is it's really chaotic. And so I always try to pick things very like specifically. So our mission as a family is Guatemala is Lilians, you know, and then like we think about all of these different things that we try to build that family structure of, like this is who we are as Van Dykes and this is what we're passionate about, you know?
- [29:17]
A
Yeah. And the orphanage is unique. You say it's a non adoptive orphanage where the kids are raised in the word of God in their own designated house family with a mother and father figure. And then they grow up and they enact change in their own country. So can you talk about that piece of it?
- [29:30]
B
Yeah. So a while ago when Jamie first started the orphanage, he was picturing, right, that all these people would come in and adopt these kids. And here again you have all these expectations. And what ended up happening was Guatemala closed off adoption to outsiders because there was just too much crime, corruption. It just was really not good. It became a money making business. And so what they did was they're like, you know what, if you're in Guatemala, you can adopt, but you cannot adopt if you're outside of Guatemala. And so what happens is these kids stay. And what his vision was is he's like, you know what, I want it to be like a family unit. And so his vision was to have these house parents move down. And so what he's building is I think it's around 10 homes and then this community center. And what he wants it to be is almost like this. But the idea is to raise leaders for the country of Guatemala. It's to have these kids stay in Guatemala, to be raised in a Christian home with parent structure. And so we're not quite there yet. You know, the vision is still unfolding and so we don't have all of that yet. But there are so many beautiful Christian principles woven into these kids lives. And it's just really amazing to see the project keep going and just to see all of the people investing stateside, but also within country. You know, we have so many beautiful Guatemalans involved.
- [30:43]
A
What a thing. So people can get involved. That's incredible. Okay, so let's switch to this Bible study method. It's called Inductive and this is what the book is about. So if you are getting outside and you're finding all these connections and you want to learn more about God, you can learn more about God with your kids. This book is called Chasing Sacred. Learn how to study scripture to pursue God and find hope in him. You can also check out your website, which is chasing sacred.com. and you have a blog there and Bible study materials. And you have a. And you also have a Bible study.
- [31:10]
B
Yes.
- [31:10]
A
Yeah, people can do. So lots of options there. But one of the things that you talked about and I love this, it was so many, like I have this story and here's how it relates and I have this story and here's how it relates. But one of them was that you're in college, you're working all these different jobs, you're a driver. What was the three jobs? Oh, you work at the theater, you're a student driver, you work at the theater. And then also you're working at this restaurant. Now the restaurant's called the Wooden Shoe. And it sounds like a fun restaurant because if you can eat the 12 egg omelet, then you get a free T shirt. I was like, this sounds like a cool place. And so you're working at this restaurant and one of the days you pre fill all the brown sugars. Like you're like, I'm gonna do extra, I got time, I'm gonna pre fill. And the boss is like, don't do that, it's gonna go bad. And you related that to this verse in the Bible that says, give us this day our daily bread. So can you talk about just even in this busy life, the importance of like why the daily bread? Like what do you think that God is trying to say there with that? And how can we grasp that as mothers in particular or anyone who's listening in their own life, in their Bible study methods.
- [32:13]
B
Yeah, I think about just how little time I have as a mom and just how there's so much that I can do and a lot of times I will put my kids first in everything I do and not give myself time. And so what I think is really what I talk about is how when we pre fill the brown sugar right for days to come, it goes bad. So if we store up and try to just read God's word or listen to it once a week on Sundays, how it doesn't feel like it gets us through the rest of the week, how we need it every single day. And that's how I relate it to that scripture. And I think what it speaks to me and also just like what I would encourage moms to do is even if you have five minutes, I know it's so hard as a mom, like when your babies are waking up and when they're up all night to get up early or to find time at night. But I've just found that just that daily rhythm of just being consistent in the word, even if it's a couple minutes, even if it's like opening my Bible while I'm making breakfast, you know, and looking at it and just taking a, a verse for that day that I can use as a breath prayer. And so just that encouragement for moms. I know it's so busy, it's so chaotic, but just every single day to get in the Word, it just never returns. Void.
- [33:21]
A
Does anyone else feel like the holidays just showed up overnight? One minute we're picking pumpkins and the next I'm looking around my house thinking, wait, do we have enough guest towels? Where is the wreath from last year? And who am I still missing gifts for if you are in that same last minute scramble? Wayfair has been such a lifesaver for us during this season. The holidays are here and you get what you need fast with Wayfair. From bedding and linens to decor for every room in the house, it is truly your one stop shop. We've been adding some final holiday touches to our home and I recently ordered a couple things from Wayfair. A beautiful neutral throw blanket for the living room and the sweetest little lamp for the kids reading nook. Everything came with fast, free hassle, free delivery. And it all looked even better in person than online. It is amazing how one new piece can make your home feel warm, refreshed and ready for hosting. And if you're in the gifting Mode Wayfair really is the perfect place to shop for anyone on your list. Their selection is huge. Every style, every budget. And I keep finding things I didn't even realize they carried, like kitchen essentials, storage solutions, and seasonal decor. To get everyone in the holiday spirit, now is the time to get your home ready so you can actually enjoy the holidays with your family. And instead of running around trying to catch up, Wayfair truly has everything your home needs this season. Get last minute hosting essentials, gifts for your loved ones and decor to celebrate the holidays. For way less. Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I R.com Wayfair Every style, every home. Okay, so tell us about the Inductive Bible Study method.
- [34:46]
B
Yeah, so the Inductive Bible Study method is a method that I learned in Bible college and again, it just transformed my thinking about the word of God. And it's asking questions of the text. So we know that Jesus in the gospel, offers gospels, offers around 306 questions, you know, and he's constantly asking questions of people. And I think about the Inductive Bible Study method. What I love about it is it's a question asking method. And so it's going to the Bible with curiosity. And I think curiosity is something that all of us can grow in and all of us can learn so much from. But approaching Bible study in a way that you're asking like, who wrote the book, who was it written to? Why was it written? And it helps us to uncover the context. It helps us to understand what was really happening in that day and in that culture because we're so far removed from the Bible in a lot of ways because we're Westerners, right, Living in this day and age. And so it's really the approach that we take to Scripture. And it's just a three parts to it, observation, interpretation, application. And I walk you through that in the book, through those three steps and just ask, you know, what do I see? What does this mean? How does this apply to me? And I do that through, like you said, all of these stories.
- [36:01]
A
So, all right, give us an example.
- [36:03]
B
Yeah, so basically it would be coming to the text, and I talk about this using like a bullseye, but it'd be coming to the text. You're reading the Bible, maybe it's the, for the first time you're deciding to open the scriptures, or maybe you're a seasoned believer and you come to the text and you're like, okay, I'm just gonna read a Bible verse. And I think that's often how we approach Scripture is we're like, okay, you know, thumb to a page, read a Bible verse. Well, I think it was Greg Kokol that said, never read a Bible verse. And what he meant by that was not to never read a Bible verse. What he meant by that was to just read the surrounding context. And so it's looking at a book of the Bible. Pretend you're a new believer and you're starting in the book of John and you open up to look at the background of it, like, who wrote the book, who was it written to? What genre is, is it, It's a gospel, right? And so you start reading and to really think through the context, like read the entire book and I talk about this, I talk about if you have time, like read the whole book through and then think about, okay, I want to study this specific passage and read the surrounding context. So you know where in the book of the Bible it is.
- [37:03]
A
So what would be an example of something that you could come to in the Bible and by understanding more of the context or understanding more of the culture, it would give you a better sense of what it means and how you could apply it.
- [37:15]
B
Okay, this is a good question. Something that comes right off the bat is like that passage, like, greet everyone with a holy kiss, something like that. Like different things that are like if you just pull it out and that would be more of a cultural, we'd think through the cultural context of that where it was more every, that was more cultural during that day. And you wouldn't take that and directly apply it. And so I think about prescriptive versus descriptive, which I talk about in the book, and I think that was one of the most mind blowing things is if you go to a passage of scripture, right? And you're in the book of Acts and it's telling, it's talking about the Holy Spirit and it's talking about all the things that the Holy Spirit has done, right? And you go, and you're like, I gotta do exactly this, right? Then we would be looking at the Bible and we'd be saying, okay, we need to go and copy this exactly. It's prescriptive where descriptive would be more like, it would be like, no, we're reading this to learn this story and learn from it. But it's not necessarily didactic. It's not necessarily like, I need to take this and apply it to my life specifically today, if that makes sense. And so there's so many different things. If you're looking at, you know, narrative, a historical narrative, it's going to be more Learning the story of Goliath and David. That one would be like a more common. And you're not going to go, okay, now I got to find a Goliath and, like, huck something at him? Something like that.
- [38:36]
A
Yeah. It's interesting because you. I mean, you really. You wrap up the book, the book Chasing Sacred, by talking about how the Bible is meant to be applied. Do you mind?
- [38:44]
B
Okay.
- [38:45]
A
I heard this really good sermon this year. I went to this homestead festival, and it was in Columbia, Tennessee. So I actually, like. The thing that sold me ongoing was that my favorite farmer was doing Sunday church. So they. They had this big festival for the weekend. And then this. His name is Joel Salatin. They. There's a festival for the weekend if you want to stay till Sunday. They do, like, in this tent. Sunday church. So they were talking about Rahab. Joel was talking about Rahab. Now, I don't know if I've ever heard a sermon on Rahab. Are you interested in talking about Rahab?
- [39:18]
B
Oh, I'm sure. I'm trying to think if it could, like, bring much out of it if I haven't studied it recently.
- [39:24]
A
Yeah. Or maybe, like, when we come back, I would want to, because it's a really interesting story. And it was so interesting to me, Mikala, because I never heard anybody talk about Rahab, first of all. And second, this is in Joshua, So this is like Old Testament. And it. It's so applied. It's so applied. I actually think about it so often. So the story there is that Rahab lies actually, like, that's, like, the gist of it. She hides the spies that are Josh, Joshua, I'm assuming. Yeah, look, I don't know enough, but, like, she hides the spies and then lowers them out, and they're gonna. They're gonna save her in return. I know people are listening. They're like, this lady is an idiot. She doesn't know what she's talking about. But Rahab hides the spies. And then when her people, Rahab's people, come to find these spies, she lies. She flat out lies. She says they're not here, and then she says they went in the opposite direction of the way that they actually went. And so the point of the Joel was talking about was that, well, first of all, Rahab is in the line of Jesus, so she's David's great, great grandma. That all men are named in this genealogy except for two moms It's Rahab and Ruth, and they're the only non Jews. So he said, there's hope for all of us. Don't ever box God in. But he talks about how sometimes it's really difficult to perceive truth. Like, what are we supposed to do? Like, am I supposed to go along with what, you know, I'm supposed to turn these people in? Am I supposed to not turn these people in? But then he said that defying God's enemies is a sign of faith and defiance to defend God. And righteousness is not defiance, it's courage. We must be prepared to lie when the objective is in opposition with God's.
- [41:04]
B
Oh, wow. Oh, my goodness. You need to send me this.
- [41:08]
A
I know, I know. I actually just talked to Joel the other day, but it was about this book he has called Beyond Labels. And I was like, wait a minute. I was like, why didn't I bring up this sermon? Because I wanted to talk more about it. I've got all these notes, notes in my phone. But I guess the whole point is because I've been thinking about that a lot in terms of. I don't know, there's just a lot of choices that you make in life. Like, sometimes even small ones that are, like, for your family, but they go against the cultural norm. I don't know if I can give a really good example.
- [41:37]
B
Yeah.
- [41:38]
A
But that story, which is from Joshua, from the Old Testament, I feel like, you know, when he gave the sermon, I was like, this really does apply to your life.
- [41:48]
B
Wow. Yeah, you gotta send me that. I'm really curious to look into it.
- [41:51]
A
Like, it would be like an Anne Frank situation. Like, do you, you know, do you hide the people? I mean, that's going against, you know, what. What the Nazis are saying. That's going against what the Germans are saying. Like, you know, basically that God's law is above and.
- [42:04]
B
Yeah, well, you think about the midwives, right, that lied when it came to Egypt, and then they were blessed for it. And so I think, like, when you think about God's people, he's always going to protect the image bearer. And so I think you have to go to, like, that and see that when we see that, like, we're going to protect lives, like murder is against God's ten Commandments, you know, and so it's similarly. She lied to protect God's people.
- [42:31]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Isn't that interesting? So, you know, I. I mean, I think that that's like, you know, never lie and liars go to hell. And, you know. Yeah, you Know, you have these things growing up where you're like, you know, and. And then that. I. I was like, that was a really interesting sermon to me. And I never heard anybody talk about it. And when your book with the Bible is. Is meant to be applied, you're like, yeah, if you can read these stories in context and really try and understand the surrounding story with it, it can translate into your everyday.
- [43:00]
B
Yeah.
- [43:01]
A
And it's really powerful. That's all I have on it. Mikaela. Like, we're going to have to ask Joel because I have like those couple little notes in my phone, but I've gone back to it a couple times and I was like, we're at this homestead festival. Like, why is he talking about Rahab? And I was like, like, oh, this is actually really interesting. And I've thought about it quite a bit since. So the Bible is meant to be applied. And you talk about you all these things. Like I said, you relate this, you know, this experience to that. You talked about vacationing in Florida with the geckos. They talk about how. And that's a nature thing. Oh, octopus, octopi. Octopuses. I think it's actually octopuses. They do the same thing. We watched this documentary, it's called the Octopus Teacher. Phenomenally good. It's so good. The film quality and like, what's going on in the ocean is just. It is so captivating. It is like a whole other world down there. And someone said recently, like before scuba gear and things like that, no one even knew it was there. God made this whole world under the ocean that, you know, for a very long time nobody saw. So anyways, this Octopus Teacher and the octopus, at one point it gets its. It's one of its tentacles bit off by a shark and it grows back. So can you talk about that and how that relates to. I have it under my section. The Bible is meant to be applied, but really about, you know, leaving our old lives and, and having these new ones.
- [44:23]
B
Yeah, yeah. So I think I talked about how basically the. The tails will fall off and then it will grow a new tail. And I just remember honestly seeing tails all over the place in Thailand because we had so many geckos in our house. But basically, like, how the Bible is meant to be applied and we're supposed to really have heart change from it. And so when we read the Scriptures, like, we could read it for head knowledge or we could also read it for heart knowledge. It needs to be both. And so when it's applied and when it transforms our hearts, our Lives will change. And so we must and allow the Bible to examine us and to really just like the Spirit to speak to us and for us to leave as. As changed. Regenerate people. Right. That's what the Holy Spirit does for us. He regenerates us. He gives us new life in Christ. And so we want to see those changes with how we speak. We want to see those changes with how we walk day in, day out as parents. I mean, one of the most sanctifying things is having children. Right. And think about just the way that I constantly need the word of God to just really help my motherhood.
- [45:30]
A
Yeah. And you talk about that, you know, whether it's motherhood or whether it's something else that's going on in your life. Like you talk about when you were a kid, you're like, the house flooded. You're having to ride a boat.
- [45:43]
B
Yes. It's really interesting a lot of times with Bible translation, I mean, there's about 1 billion people right now still without the word of God in their language. And when you think about Bible translation, like, usually at the beginning of a Bible translation or in the Bible and is being finished, there's a lot of spiritual warfare. And so our house that year flooded twice. We all got dengue fever, which is like a rare disease. There's three of us hospitalized at the same time. I mean, it was just like hardship after hardship that year. And so I talk about that in my book, just like, how crazy that year was for us.
- [46:16]
A
A lot of cockroaches.
- [46:17]
B
A lot of cockroaches coming from the drains.
- [46:20]
A
Yeah. What a year. But then you talk about how that the. The Bible can be an anchor in your life. So you're in the spot where your home is flooding. You're like sandbagging and trying to bail water. And it just didn't do anything to, like, to the point where you literally had to. You were like in a boat going down your road because the road had turned into a river. And then you talk about the fever and how that actually can lead to depression. So you have all these things going on, like a lot of severe pain. And then you also talked about how your house was broken into. So just a lot of things that are going on. And you say, and I think this is just really important. We can have an anchor in the Bible. The Bible is a lifeline to those experiencing the chaos of this world. It can give us firm. I have a typo. I'm going to read it. Firm footing. It can give us firm footing. No matter what we're facing. So I think, you know, sometimes people have this. This misconception of the Bible that it's just like this harsh rule book. And maybe it's confusing or it's too long or it doesn't apply, but yet you talk about how it can be an anchor. It is an anchor. It is an anchor when we're experiencing the chaos of the world. And there's so many ways that you can experience the cast of the world. If someone was looking for that, where would be a good place for them to start?
- [47:39]
B
I love that question. I like to say, like, the book of John, and so to really get to know Jesus and his life. And I think it's really a bit of an easier read. But also, you know, Romans, if you're thinking about doctrine and epistles. So a letter, I think, is a lot. A lot of times easier to digest. And so that's what I like to recommend for people that are just starting out in reading the word.
- [48:01]
A
Reading. You say this. We need humility when we open the Bible. Can you explain what you mean by that?
- [48:07]
B
Oh, my goodness. Humility. Well, we kind of just talked about it with this sermon, and I was like, you know, if I. I don't. You know, the Bible is so massive. There's just so much information. And here we see that it's just. It is, in ways hard to interpret. Right. Certain passages are. And so just approaching the Bible and approaching everything in life, like, I don't know it all. And so even here, as a Bible teacher, I like to say I don't know it all. And so sometimes, you know, we come across things where there's false teaching or people that are misspeaking about verses. And I always say grace is my first initial way to respond to that, because sometimes people are just misinterpreting a passage and they don't know. They're not trying to mislead people.
- [48:48]
A
Yeah, it's so interesting. Okay, so let's take that example. Let's take the example. I'm pulling it up. Can you talk about how we would study Rahab in the context of inductive Bible study? So she's a Canaanite. She is in Jericho. She harbors and protects these two Israelite spies that are sent by Joshua. So it's not Joshua, it's just in the book of Joshua. So these spies come, and she harbors them, and she helps them, and she lowers them through the window, and then she acts in faith based off of what she thinks is the right thing to do, and then that saves her family, and then she ends up in the lineage of Jesus, which is incredible. But if you were going to, you know, read, I'm like, it is wild. Like you say, the Bible is finite. It starts and ends. And yet in some ways it just feels infinite. Like you go back again and you read and you learn more. So if you were to take a story like that, what would be the inductive Bible study method to study that in context and to really try and get out of it all. You could get out of it?
- [49:48]
B
Yeah. So I like to, a lot of times start with asking background questions. So it'd be like, okay, so who wrote the book of Joshua? Who was it written to? We want to think and try to think through the purpose of the book. And so we're going to look at themes, we're going to mark up our text. And so when we start with observation, a lot of times what we do is we'll mark up up keywords, we'll mark up repeated words. But because it's a historical narrative, that story, it is a story. And so we read it like a story, just like anybody would read any other story, right? And so you can get principles from a story, and you can also get just different moral principles from a story. Like you did, like this pastor did, right? He's like, okay, be courageous. And in this instance, it was okay to lie. And so you can get those principles and apply it to your everyday life, which is a lot of times how we will apply historical narrative. And then you look at interpretation. So, like, after I mark up the text, look at the themes, think about the purpose of the book I read the book through and make sure it's rooted in context. I want to go into interpretation, like, what does it actually mean? So what does it mean in that time period in that culture? And then after that, I bridge that gap and I say, what does this mean to me? Like, what does this tell me about the character of God? And so a lot of times in these historical narratives, you want to say, where is God in this story? And what does this tell me about God and his character? Because a lot of times it will show us biblical principles of God is faithful to his people, right? God is a good God, God is a merciful God. And so you start writing down all these things that you can learn about God and then how that then applies to your own life. I can then walk through my day as a mom and realize that God is faithful to them. He's also going to be faithful to me.
- [51:33]
A
Oh, it's so good. Yeah. I mean, there's so much you can take out. Like you said, the Bible is meant to be applied. You do talk about false teachers. How can you be on the lookout, on guard for that?
- [51:45]
B
I think it goes back to context. When I look at false teaching so many times it's just passages taken out of context. And so what we do is like, sometimes I'll see something, or sometimes someone will send something to me. Michelle, this is didn't sit right with me. And I'll be like, yeah, it's because you have discernment. Right. And you read the Scriptures and it doesn't align with what you know about God. And so look at the exact passage they're quoting and then look at the context of it. Like, where does it sit in the Bible? Can it be applied in the way they're applying it? And a lot of times it's misapplication. And so then I'll, you know, talk to them about why it's misapplied. Maybe they're applying something like we talked about, prescriptive versus descriptive. Maybe they're applying a passage that is a story and saying, now you, Jenny, have to go out and reenact that. You have to be rahab and save, you know, like so.
- [52:30]
A
Right.
- [52:31]
B
I think that can be a lot of times what happens.
- [52:34]
A
Okay. Yeah. Good information about what to look out for and especially to start to teach your kids because the world is confusing and we are in a day and age where there, you know, it used to be that you would have your Bible and then you would go to church and you would hear one preacher often, maybe for your whole childhood, you know, or, you know, here and there there's a guest, but it's like the same person and you maybe knew them. And now it's like, well, you can listen to a sermon from countless people. Right. You can find countless pieces of information online, information, videos. And so just to be on guard. And so you cover that in the book. The book is called Chasing Sacred. Learn how to study scripture to pursue God and find hope in him. As we're heading into the holidays, this might be a great one to add to your family as you're kind of like, you know, if you're wanting to study deeper into the Christmas story or, you know, the story of Jesus or this is a goal for you for the new year so people can check out the book and also your Bible study and also your website. I'll make sure I put all this links in the show Notes. Can you just give us a little bit of the background of this hiking in the Himalayas? Oh.
- [53:32]
B
Oh, my goodness, yes. So my parents were avid hikers, and we actually hike with our kids all the time. And so we live in New Hampshire, so we have tons of hiking here. But my dad grew up in New Hampshire, actually, so we would hike in Thailand. Well, one day, I mean, one of his best friends lived in Nepal, and so he's like, hey, we're going to take a family trip to Nepal and we're going to hike the Himalayas for a week. So that's what we did. I mean, we stayed in these, like, tiny huts. And then one place, I remember we were drinking yaks, milk or whatever. Like, we thought it was hot chocolate, but it tasted like. Didn't taste quite like hot chocolate. But anyways, we hiked for seven days as a family, and it is some of my best childhood memories. I still look back and I remember the entire. Like, I feel like I remember the entire trip because it was so fun. And so now my husband and I try to do that with our kids. We try to hike, and we really want to plan a big, long hiking trip with our kids because we just. We love to hike with our family.
- [54:28]
A
You said you would stay in these lodges. You could hike and then stay in these lodges. You say they were bare and rustic, but provided some of the best memories of my childhood. And like, the whole book, you're. You're able to relate this in. You say the hikes were hard, but the views were spectacular. And that's how it can be with scripture. Just one step at a time with the. These spectacular views. And you say it's like learning a new skill, you know, like how anything is. And especially as adults, sometimes it's hard to learn new skills, but you can learn how to study the Bible in context, and it can just add so much riches to your life. So what an honor, Michelle, that we got to meet in person, and here we did. Got to sit and talk about your book and about this Rahab story and, you know, maybe we'll do an inductive Bible study on that sometime and. And really get the full breadth of what was going on there. But I so appreciate it. People can buy this book wherever books are sold. Chasing sacred. Learn how to scripture to pursue God and find hope in him. We always end our show with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood? That was outside.
- [55:25]
B
Oh, my goodness. Well, I'd have to go to my hiking in the Himalayas. I think that's definitely one of my favorites. So I also spent a lot of time outside in the back of my house making mud pies and, you know, mud. Mud statues and different things and trying to sell them at church. So did they sell? Yes, of course. I made God's house into a marketplace.
- [55:50]
A
You know what, isn't that the coolest thing, though, Mikaela? I guess if we were to bring it back. Full circle is in, you know, in so many ways, you're like, I had this childhood that's so different from the people that are around me. And yet in some ways, it's very similar. You know, all children love to play with mud.
- [56:08]
B
Yes, it's so true.
- [56:09]
A
And here you are hiking, hiking with your kids in New Hampshire, and you can hike in Nepal, you know, and, and glean these bigger life lessons from any of it. Just like how you can get the life lessons from the, the geckos in Florida and you can get them from the geckos in Thailand. And. And these lessons that God has woven into his creation are wherever you live, wherever you live, wherever you do in childhood, wherever that is, those life lessons abound. So, Michaela, what an honor to get to spend this hour with you. Thank you so much for being here.
- [56:39]
B
Thank you so much. Jenny.
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A
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