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The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 650: An Antidote to the Crushing Pace of Childhood | Heather Shumaker, It's Ok Not to Share
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Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Eric. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside, and I have just read the most fantastic book, I'm Late to the Game. I'm Late to the Game, but it's so good, I took like 900 pages of notes. It's called it's okay not to Share and other renegade rules for raising competent and compassionate kids. The author, Heather Shoemaker, is here. Welcome, Heather.
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A
Oh, thank you so much. You are not late to the game. You know, every parent comes when they come, and the kids are. They're the same. Same as they were when the book first came out. You know, they still need the same confidence and things from. From their adults around them.
- [01:07]
B
And I would imagine a book like this becomes more valuable and more sought after year after year after year because play is being pushed out of childhood. And you talk a lot about these cultural norms of. Of, like, forcing kids to share and, you know, forcing them to interact and include this kid in the play. And you talk about other ways that you could do it and why. And it comes out of science. It comes out of research. And so there is a lot here to think about. I think every parent should read it. So let's just start off with relaxing. So you talk about that there is a crushing pace of childhood. Crushing pace. And you say, look, we can all just relax. So can we start off there with where we're at, like the current state of things and why play is still one of the most important things for our young children.
- [01:55]
A
Oh, yeah. I mean, this morning. I picked up the newspaper this morning, and front of one of the sections is about how a Michigan study, they surveyed almost a thousand parents. I think it was 1 in 10 had their kids playing outside once a week. And the rest was less than that. Right. I mean, we know that intuitively because we don't see the kids. When I take my neighborhood walk, I don't see the kids outside. Even the kids waiting for the school bus are inside a car. Car being sheltered from I don't know what the chance to see an earthworm, you know, what is it that we're sheltering them from and do we realize how far it's gone? So these studies that they're doing, they just kind of reinforce what we know is off kilter. And the. Yes. I mean, this topic can go on and on. Kids need that downtime. They don't need. We get exhausted by our schedules, they get exhausted by our schedules. And time doesn't really matter. When you're that age, it's amorphous.
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B
You talk about how we've turned childhood in, into this preparation, like that's what it is. You know, the three year old is preparing for the four year old and the four year old is preparing for the five year old. The five year old's preparing for college. But you say we don't do that. Like once you become an adult. You wrote this, you wrote, should we teach you how to get ready for old age when you're in your 30s? And you had this quote, this was someone else's quote, but they said you can't make corn grow by pulling on it. Can you talk about the. I mean, it's kind of confusing a little bit, Heather, because, you know, a 23 year old and a 24 year old are fairly similar, but a 3 year old and a 4 year old have very specific developmental things that are going on. You say when we use this getting ready approach, it could also be called stealing play.
- [03:55]
A
Yeah, we don't think of it as that. We think of we. I mean, we are loving, caring people. So all of us, no matter how we parent, we are loving and caring people and we love those kids. But the way we think what's best for them is not always what actually is best for them. And so we're trying, we're enrolling them in classes where we're doing math flashcards with them instead of letting them go to sleep. You know, we're just doing things because we care so much. So when you're thinking about maybe making a change in your life, you know, for your listeners, don't berate yourself like, oh, I'm a terrible parent because I did this or that. No, you're a caring person and you just haven't. I think it's hard because society is trying to sell us childhood and they're trying to sell us all these things we can do to improve and shape that human being. But kids aren't meant. Kids are a human being developing on their own schedule, their own terms. And sometimes the best way you can support them is help them through a temper tantrum and help them understand their big feelings. That's incredible work. I mean, think about maybe your co workers who can't deal with their anger. It causes problems in marriages, it causes problems in the workplace all over the place. If we can get down these basic things like how to set limits on another human being, how to express ourselves without hurting somebody else, and what to do with all these big feelings, if we can do those things, the world is theirs. We're preparing our children for life, but we're preparing them at the appropriate age of a three year old and then when they're five, at the appropriate age for a five year old. I'm in my 50s and I have big feelings too. But if we, we all have to learn age appropriate ways to express the grief, the frustrations, the anger, all these feelings. I mean, we can deal with happy generally. So I don't want to discount happy, but we're pretty good at dealing with happy. It's those, those negative emotions that we have TR with. And if we, if we put our kids in car seats and in boxes and don't let them outside and don't let them interact truly and we say oh no, let so and so come in, we're not actually giving them that opportunity for conflict that is essential for learning how to deal with conflict in an appropriate way.
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B
Yeah, I want to read a couple of these things. The book is fantastic. I really think every parent, educators as well should read it. It's called it's okay not to Share. You say we can push a 3 year old to study numbers or a 4 year old to study letters, but we shouldn't. Not unless she's ready in her own good time. A four year old will only be a four year old once. Concentrate on meeting his present needs. Don't foist future academics on him. If he's allowed to truly play now, spontaneous play, with room for running and leaping and kapowing and crying and dancing and painting and spilling and creative problem solving, then he will be ready for academics later. There will always be time for academics, but there won't always be time for play. When children gain social and emotional skills and confidence in the preschool years, academic learning naturally follows. So it's really good advice and we need these reminders because there's such a push to fill the schedule. Can you talk about the school? So the hit the Some of the history here is that there is this little school, a little preschool in Columbus, Ohio, and you say it's at this forgotten spot where kids can still wrestle and paint their arms blue or climb trees and they don't have to sit still, they don't have to share. And it's called the School for Young Children. And you say it's produces confident, compassionate children who are masters in mediation and creative problem solving. For the past 40 years, you went to preschool there. Your mother is a teacher there. She taught for four decades. And it's helped you to come up with your own child rearing philosophy. Tell us about the school.
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A
Oh, that's my favorite topic. I'm so glad you asked. I mean, it is an oasis of respect. I think that's what it is. It respects the present needs of a child. So let me tell you the founders of this preschool, which it was founded back in 1969, which is a time period when adults tended to trust children a little bit more. We trusted that their play was okay and that it wasn't going to land them, you know, in jail because they decided to point their fingers like it was a toy gun or something. So there was a time more of trust. And these founders, they had an idea of that they would have a school based on rights of the children, not rules of what you can't do. So instead of rules like no running, all this stuff, it was, you have a right to move your body. You have a right to be outside, even if it's raining. You have a right. So they based it on rights. Then of course, they opened the door, they said, okay, we're really progressive. We got this idea of how it's going to be. And then they opened the doors. The first kids came in. And what happened was kids started puppy play, wrestling with each other, Especially the more active kids, especially some of the boys would kind of push and tumble. And so the founders of the school looked at that and they kind of scratched their head and they think, well, we weren't expecting this, but let's think through our rights. They have a right to play. We check in. Are you both having fun? Because if one of them's having fun and the other one isn't, it's not play. It's a conflict, which is a different thing. And so they found out they both wanted to do this. Kids seemed to want to kind of touch each other and wrestle around and roll on a mat. So they got play mats out and they said, take your shoes off. And then if the kids had a struggle, like, you're pulling my shirt, don't pull my shirt, or you're pulling my hair. That was a great opportunity for Them to talk through their conflict and figure out, you can wrestle with me, but don't pull my hair. And then those kids were able to play this active level of play for a long time. And especially kids who are young, it's often boys who are less verbal. They need that physical touch to make a friend. So by saying, keep your bodies apart, don't touch each other, we're actually preventing beautiful friendships from blossoming. And the level of trust, I mean, if you and I, I know we're separated by a zoom screen right now, but if we started attacking each other with a pool noodle, we'd come to a different level of relationship. You and I would never be the same as we were. Once we start doing something physical like that, we've created a new bond. And kids need that kind of bond all the time and not sit in their chairs and have someone tell them what to do. So the ability to do this high active play, it encourages friendship and trust and bonding as well as the ability to practice conflict.
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B
I never thought about it that way. No, our relationship would not be the same. It would be totally different. That's a different level of intimacy. And our boys have always been, you know, they're rolling around on the floor with, you know, the other boys that they're sitting on each other and, and I have thought so often about how it really helps them to learn self control because they don't take it too far. And you're learning so much in those times. So you talk in this book then about these children's rights. This was the, you know, the philosophy, the ideas are play based. They're embedded in a deep trust of the child. Talking about how we over limit play and under limit other behavior. But you know that there is right, there is a right to uninterrupted play. There is a right to choose playmates. There's a right not to share. There's a right to feel safe. This is remarkable. You know, we've, we've done a lot of play, a lot of playing outside. And I still, my eyes were so open from this book. There were so many philosophical topics that were brought up that I had not thought through. And you say developing conflict resolution skills is perhaps the main job of early childhood. So when we're talking about these different topics, one of the ones that comes up is this right for uninterrupted time to play. And this is one of the things that has really changed since 1969, kids. That statistic I saw is four to seven minutes on average of outdoor play a day, four to seven hours on screens. So four to seven minutes of play outdoors unstructured and four to seven hours on screens.
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A
I believe it.
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B
So you say kids need plentiful, unstructured time to play in. And I think that parents need and, and child educators, they need this direct instruction. They need plentiful unstructured time to play in blocks of at least an hour. Free play demands large blocks of time of one or two hours or more. And shorter play periods, which is the recess in the US is 22 minutes on average. Shorter play periods less than 30 minutes reduce the complexity and matur of children's play. They need at least 45 minutes to get into good play and then the deep play expands. So can you convince the parents listening, like set your time aside for this?
- [12:31]
A
Yeah, it, this is a hard one because we, we feel like, oh, I, I've seen in a preschool class, I've done a lot of observations in, in various programs and I saw one where the only unstructured playtime was the seven minutes maybe between setting up one craft and setting up something else. And so while the teacher was busy doing all that adult stuff, the kids suddenly where they could just be themselves. And so they burst into a very quick little bit of playtime. But that doesn't, that, that's cut too short. So at my, at my mother's preschool, the school for young children that you mentioned that the, the philosophy of this book is based on, they were watching kids over the years and they noticed that kids would take, you know, 3 year olds and 4 year olds and 5 year olds, that age group, they just take a while to, to figure out how to talk to someone else or they might have to kind of poke them on the shoulder to get their attention. I mean, they don't have hopefully the skills that we might come to the front of them, talk to their face, ask, do you want to play? These things take some time. So for them to even develop an interesting play idea and get the group of kids together who want to play this, that takes a while. And it took at least 45 minutes. From when they walk in the door, even if they had all that time open, they might spend some of it standing there, they might spend some of it watching other kids. Wasted time. That's them figuring out life. And then when they get the game going, then they need a lot of time to play it out. So that, that same game, there was one game I watched that was about an owl. It was kind of a predator game. And some of the people were Owls, and some of them weren't. And they played this game for five days in a row. But the first day, it took a while to get the game figured out. What are the rules? What can Owls do? Where are we going? And so once they figured it out, they play it and play it and play it until the game has run its course. But there was a preschool in southern Michigan, there's kind of a co op one at someone's house. And they read this book and they said, like you. Oh, okay, so big blocks of time. And they looked at their day and they saw that they had, well, all morning it was play, except they chunked it up and they kept having, now everybody must come and sit down and have snack. Now everybody must say, go to the bathroom. And so their big playtime was actually chunked. And what they did is they changed their sit down and have snack to here's some apples and things out on a table. If you're hungry, stop by and eat. And then so that didn't interrupt play anymore. So the kids were able to play, get really deeply involved in a game. If they were hungry, they came over, had a little bite to eat, and then they went right back into the game. They hadn't missed anything. And they noticed that the friendships that were developed and the sophistication even of their vocabulary shot up through the roof, that everything was getting more complex and the change was incredible and that the parents noticed it. Certainly the kids had a better time. And they said, oh, this is what Heather's talking about. Big blocks of play. You think you're not interrupting, but you are.
- [15:40]
B
Well, our world would change if kids had this. And they don't. I mean, I think the large percentage does not. They don't have an hour in a row, they don't have two hours. And you say that. Let them. They need it. And I think this will help. This will help anyone who's listening. You say, let your child be in the company of other children. And when kids are playing and they're focused on their own interests, they're working at their optimal level of learning. It's just so wonderful for the kids. When I think back on my own childhood, I remember the freedom of the neighborhood. Hours spent riding bikes with friends until the streetlights came on. That's what childhood should feel like. Movement, laughter and connection. And that's exactly what our friends at Wound Bikes are helping families rediscover. Womb makes the lightest, smartest and safest bikes on the market. Perfectly designed for kids, not just shrunken down adult bikes. Every detail matters. 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And now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n c e.com outside to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com outside so there's a whole lot in here about play. You talk a lot about boys as well. That this sitting is, it's hard for girls too, but you know, it's really hard for these kids and they're, you know, the boys are suffering and that the tests and the homework are just not age appropriate. So there's a lot, I mean, like I said, I have pages and pages and pages of notes. But I wanted to talk about the sharing because I've never heard about this Heather. But it makes a lot of sense. First of all, I don't share all of my things.
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A
I know, you know, probably your husband and various other, you know, lipstick, car keys, people. There's things we just don't share.
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B
Yes. And I, I never considered that. So you say the typical adult view of sharing which I shared up until I read your book, which is like, oh, you're, you're constantly coaxing your child, you're constantly coaxing to be like, well, you know, notice that child and that kid has been waiting for 20 minutes to use the train, and you've been using it the whole time. And so as adults, I think we're constantly coaxing that. And what you say is that that tramples the kids right to play and teaches them the wrong lessons. It's easy to sacrifice our own kids in favor of others. We all want our kids to be liked. We, in this is your going back to intention. We're trying to keep them, teach them to be kind and generous. But forced sharing or sharing on demand often backfires. Okay, I never, I've never read about this. So for the person who's listening in and who sort of fell into the. I mean, this is what you do as a parent. You know, you, you coax and you push. Teach us the other way.
- [21:27]
A
Yeah, well, it's true. If you can think of it like an adult. If, if I say, oh, here's my charity, please donate, you know, $50, would you think, well, I could, but I'd rather, you know, it's feeling like an on demand kind of sharing. And you, you might very well do it, but you feel a little put upon. Right. It doesn't feel good. You don't feel that glow of when you really want to do something. So being coerced into being nice is really not true generosity. And when we force, we often force kids with a timer, as you mentioned. You've had it long enough. We'll say five minutes and then it's so and so's turn. It's because it's violating our adult sense of how long something should happen has nothing to do. A child's sense of time. Have you ever watched, you know, a kid when they're playing with something and then they're done, they just drop it. They're just, they, they're completely immersed and then they, they walk away and they're, they're done with it. It's that moment that we want them to feel that they can, they're. They're studying something. They're. They're experimenting with something. They're playing with something. Okay, don't interrupt that. That's their highest learning at this moment. But when they're done, they can think about. Somebody else is waiting for that. But if you take it, you know, if you're in the middle of reading a book and you're right at the climax and I say, you've had that long enough, and I take it out of your hands, because your friend wants it. You know, we would say, no, I'm not quite finished yet. You know, I'll give you the book tomorrow. I'm at the climax. So we need to think about how we're kind of double standard standarding with kids. What's more. So first of all, with sharing, when a kid is playing with something and we take it from them, they don't feel safe, Their play has been interrupted. There's so many things that are. But they also learn manipulation, because they'll learn to say, well, he's not sharing. And as soon as they invoke that word, they know they've got our attention and they'll get the toy. So it teaches a kid to tap you on the shoulder and say, mom, mom, he's not sharing. And that will spring into action. That teaches manipulation. That doesn't teach kindness. You know, it teaches an adult coming in with a big stick to solve the problem. It doesn't teach the kids to solve the problems themselves. And then for the kid who's having something taken away from them, it doesn't help them learn to stand up for themselves and set limits and set boundaries and have their rights protected. Especially I worry about this with girls, you know, learning how to. We always say, be nice. Be nice and share. Be nice to your friends. You know, be good. We drop them off. And some of these things are not good for children. You know, we need to set boundaries. We need to have those boundaries respected. So for the child who's waiting, what we're worried about is that they're going to scream and they're going to cry and we don't want to deal with it. But that is wonderful, because if they're frustrated for waiting, that's our opportunity to be there for them and help coach them through their frustrated feelings. Oh, it's so hard to wait. You really wish you had that truck right now. And Jody's playing with it. She can play with it as long as she wants. And when she's done, let's put your name on this piece of paper, and it'll say, save for Zach. You know, it's learning to take turns. It's learning to respect someone else's limits, not manipulate, not whine. We're, like training them how to whine if we do that that way, so that moment when they're done, we can encourage them to remember somebody else. Oh, remember, Zach was waiting. Then they run off with the toy, and you could see the entire body is electric with joy because they're finished. They've had their needs met, now they are giving to somebody else. And they're experiencing on the inside how wonderful true generosity feels, how it feels good. And that kid who's experienced it, not been told, you must share. That kid who's experienced it will want that feeling again. Because our brains are wired to want to repeat good feelings, right? It's a reward system. So if we let them experience it, they're the kind of kid that will want to share on their own versus the kid who has something taken from them. They're the ones who will check and see if anybody's watching and then they won't share. So the kids who are forced to share, they will eventually develop their generosity, but it's delayed because they've experienced it first by having something taken from them. And that feels awful. And they're not going to do it when you're not watching.
- [26:06]
B
This is the first time I was exposed to this and it just got my wheels turning. And I think it's so beautiful and it makes so much sense. You're protecting the child's right to uninterrupted play, while at the same time you're also helping the other child with impulse control. So it really is a win win. Waiting for the toy and not grabbing is a vital part. This impulse control is a vital part of brain development and gets strengthened through practice. So you gave different examples that, you know, I wouldn't have thought about. How about this situation where a child has eight necklaces? You know, Brandon's got eight necklaces, he's playing with the eight necklace and another kid wants one. And I, you know, the natural response as a parent would be like, you have eight, give him one, you'll still have seven. But you say, nope, nope, like that the child has the right to play. So walk us through a situation like that.
- [26:54]
A
Just like we think that play involves a certain time limit. You've had it long enough, we think you have enough of something. Often very young kids need a lot of something. And if they have seven feather boas or seven necklaces or seven trucks or whatever it is, they actually feel that they need all of those at that moment. Now, they might, depending on the kid in the moment, like if they had a good nap, maybe they'll feel like they can give one up, maybe they won't. It depends on the child. But for some kids, they really need a sense of control and that that sense of control and safety and abundance is what they need at that moment. So if another child wants to, it's like, oh, you could point out, you could say, hey, you know, Rachel's interested in a necklace. Are you. Do you have. Do you need them all right now? And if they say yes, like, okay. I mean, that's just not judging it. Because sometimes what is enough for an adult is different than what's enough for a child. It's really just about taking turns.
- [27:53]
B
Yeah.
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A
So a child can take turns and they can wait. And waiting is not the end of the world. It's actually really helpful.
- [28:00]
B
Yeah. And you can really see. You read the book, you can really see the importance of being all done. A child's turn should be over when she is all done. Being all done may last seconds or hours. The key is that the child herself decides her play is done when she decides it's done. Don't think about the clock. Because young children don't have a concept of time, and sometimes they take really long turns. Childhood, you know, this is something I've noticed just through my own kids, is that there is a lot of repetition, especially when they're trying to learn something new. Kids learn from mastery, which to me is a remarkable thing. They learn how to do something, they completely master it, and then they. Then they move on to something harder. So you talk about sometimes these long or always. I guess, you know, there's a reason for what they're playing when they take a long turn, whether that's a long term with a toy or a long turn with the swing. This is for developmental reasons. So you say young kids learn through repetition. Trust your child at play. Her reason for a long term may not be obvious, but it fulfills an inner need. What happens when adults decide how long is enough?
- [29:04]
A
Well, I mean, there are times, of course, adults have to, like, it's lunchtime, it's nap time, or we're leaving this house and we, you know, we're going, and we're going home from Grandma's. I mean, there are times. There's a lot of times when we decide the timing is done, but when it's playtime, when you have all morning or all afternoon or whatever amount of time that you have, then there shouldn't have to be extra constraints because we put enough time constraints on them anyway. And if they know that most of the time they can play with something until they're done, then they're more willing usually to be flexible on, okay, you know, I know that at home we have long turns, but here at the library, not everybody does it that way. So they're more willing to say, yeah, I know, I can have a long term with this at home. They're more likely to be flexible in a more public space if you just explain it. Today we're going to take short turns at the museum because it's really crowded, you know, sometimes do something like that.
- [29:58]
B
And the book is filled with all of that. It's filled with ideas of things to say, ideas of things not to say. It's so helpful. I love books, Heather, that teach you the philosophy and give you something brand new to think about that you've never considered, but then also teach you the how and give you ideas. It's not like it's not prescriptive, but there's so many ideas in so many different situations where you could say, well, we've got rules for, you know, there's rules for in our home and rules for when we're out in public and you start to talk to your kids about these different things. And because there's so many examples and because you go through the philosophy behind it, it's an incredible tool for so many different types of situations and they're always nuanced, right, that Brandon has eight necklaces and someone else wants one. But it starts to get you thinking about the situation that you might be in with your child who wants to be on this swing for a really long time. And you could point out, you could say, do you notice, you know, there's a line. But at the end of the day, understanding that kids crave long turns often, and you wrote the repetition bores us. So it's easy to forget. It's easy to forget. Well, they've been doing that same thing for 67 minutes.
- [31:05]
A
Or you know, swings, swings particularly. There's a sensory element that, that, you know, a lot of us get sick to our stomach now on a swing, but the child really needs that feeling. That's why swings were invented. So sometimes they really need it for a long time. The nice thing about the sharing topic is it's, it's universal. Kids are going to have these desires and the parents are going to try to swoop it. But it's also one of the easiest steps to try if you're a parent thinking, oh my gosh, I never thought of this. It's a very simple thing. As you say, wait till they're all done. And Even a nonverbal 2 year old can put up their hand and sort of set a limit. I'm not done yet. And the only key I want to tell people is if you're going to try it, say what you mean. Mean what you say. So if you say you can have as long a turn as you want, I guarantee that in about six minutes, your brain's going to feel like you're going to explode because they're keeping it too long and it's violating some inner sense of your own. So be prepared. They're going to test you until they trust you. And that when, if you make a change like this, that you need to be prepared for extra, extra long turns because they're going to keep looking at you saying, well, she said that and will she mean it? So you gotta walk into another room if you have to. Yeah, but back up your words.
- [32:27]
B
Well, thanks for that. I think it's. It's really helpful to have some idea of what to expect. Another one, Heather, that I have never considered and similar to the sharing, you know, I would have been the type of person that said, give a necklace, you know, to this friend or. But when you, you know, you meet up at the park and there's other kids and you're like, oh, everyone is.
- [32:46]
A
Friends, you know, I know we use that word a lot, don't we? Yes.
- [32:51]
B
So, you know, one of the things. Well, one of the chapters is called we're not all friends. And, you know, you can say things like, I don't think the kids know each other yet, but. But this whole concept of friendship, and one of the ones I think is really important is forcing a new playmate into a group. This is something I would have done until I read your book. But I, you know, it makes so much sense that when two kids are playing owls or, you know, whatever the example is, they. Well, first of all, they might be really little, so it might be really difficult for them to figure out how do I add in another kid? So, okay, so let's talk about that. But then I also want to talk about. You give such. And I don't know if coaching is the right word, but like, you know, the kids are trying to learn these social skills. So in some ways the, the parent or the adult is a little stand. You know, standoffish is not the right word, but like off to the side maybe, or not in not meddling. But also there's really good coaching that you can give, which is like, have you thought about how you might be able to join in? Or what could you, you know, what could you bring a little tool if they're building house or whatever? Okay, so it's two things. The first is it would seem like the right thing to do to, to say, now Include Stacy.
- [34:03]
A
Right, right. And then gaining. Gaining skills to get into play as well. Yeah. So, yeah, huge topic. Right. So if we have trouble as adults with kids waiting for the turn where the twin truck we really have trouble with, oh, no, they're going to hurt someone's feelings. They're going to reject somebody, you know, so this is really dicey. This is probably the number one hot topic. Even worse than the toy guns and the toy weapons stuff. This is. This is really sensitive stuff. But if we think about it as taking turns with people, just like taking turns with an object. Let me give you an example. So forcing somebody to include another person, when you mentioned this already, not developmentally ready. A lot of kids can only do parallel play, especially if they're three years old. So adding in a third person can be too much for them to cope with. And if they say they can't cope, you know, then they can't cope. But more complicated that you're getting to a four year old, maybe a five year old. I watched two girls, they were playing house. One was the moment, one was actually, I don't remember what the other one was. And so the adults were talking in one corner and they said, let Sarah join your group. The two girls were playing and Sarah was the outsider. Let Sarah join in. And the girls were forced to. So they'd been having a nice time playing and suddenly they had to cope with this newcomer. They didn't want her. So when the adults turned their backs, they looked right at Sarah and they said, all right, you're the baby and the baby's asleep. They got rid of her. Right? I mean, she had a role in.
- [35:40]
B
The game in some way. That's brill. I mean, that's kind of brilliant.
- [35:43]
A
It's kind of brilliant. And kids will do that. They'll find a way to protect their play. So let's say you and your friend are catching up at the coffee shop and you're going, you know, you're just having a great old time with your friend. Wouldn't that be nice sometimes? And then all of a sudden your partner walks in and you think, hi. You know, it totally changes the dynamic. You really love this person, but you wish they wouldn't show up right now. So it's not that you don't love them, it's that right now you want to spend time with your best friend or with that person that you know in your coffee shop. If we think of it in the same terms for kids, they're wanting to spend time with that person right now. And it's not that they don't like the person who's coming in to want to join their game, but right now they're doing this. And maybe I'll play with you later, you know, maybe after lunch we'll do something. So there's ways to not crush somebody, but it's a. It's a way of having play, not being interrupted. And then again, the kid who's rejected, well, it's an awful feeling sometimes, but it sometimes gets amplified by our reaction. You can't do that. You know, how else let somebody in? So if you just say, gosh, they're busy right now, what else could you do? Oh, you really want to play what they're playing? Well, maybe could you play it over here? Because sometimes they just like the idea if we don't treat it as the end of the world, it's not necessarily going to be. Or if that child melts down again, we have a chance to cope with their feelings, help them express themselves. And that's wonderful.
- [37:14]
B
There is a lot to think about here, which is why I think everybody should read the book, because I didn't know any of this. You say adults frantically want children to get along. True. We see trouble in the world and we've experienced pain in social relationships ourselves, and we want to spare our kids. So, you know, we talk about the rejection scares us and we're like, that's not nice. We want our kids to be liked and we want them to like other kids and we're trying to spare them pain. But I never considered the disruptive, the disruption to play. I guess it's similar to the other situation where the, the sharing, you know, the. For the one child who has the toy or has the swing or has the teeter totter, that it's helping them with their development. The play is helping them. So that's very important. And for the kid who does not have the thing, this is helping them with their impulse control and, and learning. And this is the same situation for the kids that are already playing. This is helping them because they're playing and this is their highest form of learning. And, and then you say rejection and you, you definitely caveat. You say repeated rejection can be more of an issue. Repeated. You write repeated rejection is different. Kids who are repeatedly rejected frequently need adult help to turn the pattern around.
- [38:20]
A
Yeah, and that is true. That's chronic rejection is. But this is not kind of normal everyday, don't want to play with someone right now. It's not a crisis. Taking turns.
- [38:30]
B
Yes. And that Helps that child as well. So maybe that child will pivot and, and try something different. And also maybe that child will learn emotionally how to deal with rejection. Because you say rejections are part of life and everyone needs to learn how to cope. But then you also give. Which I think this is. I mean, I, I'm like, I missed all of this, Heather, about teaching the child who wants to join in to pay a little bit more attention, you know, and maybe they, I'm not saying they weren't paying attention, but like, can you look and say, oh, what, what are they, what are they doing over there? And can you insert yourself in a way that, that is more seamless with what they're playing? And I thought, goodness, wouldn't this be a great adult skill as well?
- [39:15]
A
What can you bring to add to the group? What can you bring your skills? Your. Maybe you have a shovel and they're doing digging with their hands. You know, what can you do to help them say yes? And some of it's just asking too. It's okay. Why do people say no? Adults, I mean, often voters, we vote no on something because we're scared of it. We just don't know what it's about. So here's an example of social rejection and an unusual way it happened. I was watching two little girls who had a little, kind of a tent house with a blanket type of thing set up, and they were doing something inside their little house. And they had a sign that said, no tigers, no boy. You know, it was, it was Kaylee and Jessica's house. No tigers, no boys.
- [39:59]
B
Kids are so fun.
- [40:01]
A
Okay, now, they didn't, they didn't write their own sign that the teacher helped them write it because they were pre literate. They were three or four. And then who should come along wanting to come into their house? Not a tiger, but Ben, who was a boy and he was wearing a tiger suit.
- [40:16]
B
Oh, there we go.
- [40:17]
A
There we go. Now, I think the reason they had no tigers written on their sign in the first place is because a lot of kids were doing dresses and they were in tiger suits and lion suits and being loud, okay? So they wanted a place with no tigers. So Ben comes along in a tiger suit and wants to play with them. And so the teacher said, well, there's a sign. It says, Kaylee and Jessica's house, no boys, no tigers. Should we ask them, you know, like, I'll come with you and be by your side? They might say yes. They might say no. So that's preparing them for rejection. The worst that can happen is they'll say no. No. And then they came out and they said, what would happen? This is a great keyword. I think I have it at the end of one of the chapters. What would happen if Ben joined your game? So we're ferreting out the fear because that's why people say no is because they're afraid someone won't respect their limits. They're afraid something will happen. What would happen if Ben joined your game and they said he would growl because tigers are loud. So Ben, if you went into their house, would you growl? Oh, no, because he wants to go in the house. So could Ben come in if he doesn't growl or make loud noises? Okay. So then Ben, who's a boy wearing a tiger suit, was allowed into the house because they were able to define what they were worried about, set that limit, and he agreed to it. And those three kids played the rest of the time.
- [41:42]
B
Wow, that's powerful.
- [41:44]
A
It's. It totally is. Could adults do this? I don't know if we can, you know, but the world would be a better place if we asked. We're afraid to ask that initial question. What are you afraid of? What are you worried about Ben? What is Ben going to do to you? Put that fear out there and you never know what's going to come out. But they will probably tell you what they're worried about.
- [42:05]
B
Yeah. And then to ask the other child, are you basically able to play by the rules that they've set up and then they get to the make the decision? Yes, yes, I can. You know, and they've got that they're, they're learning their own self control. So you knew you say this. I mean, I never would have considered it. You say they are worried that the new person will disrupt their play. Adding a new person changes the game. Yes, it does. This is a valid concern. And so you can help kids figure out how to include a newcomer. You can help kids be a newcomer. But at the end of it, it's about also trusting the children and giving them their rights, their right to play. And there's so much happening here that is good for all the kids. When kids say no, they may be desperately trying to keep their play alive. What a different way to look at it then. Oh, you know, that, that kid.
- [42:53]
A
And they're being mean or something.
- [42:55]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can't figure out how to include another person. And I'm scared if we do, we'll lose this play. Like I said, I've never read any of this before. And it was so eye opening to me and very helpful. I find it very helpful. And you always give that, you know, long term, you can just see it. You can extrapolate it out and see how, you know, how for long term, building friendships. I actually talked to this woman recently who wrote a book about friendships, and she was saying that no one teaches you how to make friends. You're just thrown in a room with a bunch of other second graders and you're in second grade or a bunch of fifth graders and it's like, have at it. Well, then you graduate and you really have. No, no one's really verbalized the skills. So the skill to say, I see your crocheting. Would you care if I came and sat next to you? You know, like. Right, yeah. Or you're. There's a party. What, you know, what can I bring? These are, these are lifelong skills. And I have not read another book that is so nitty gritty, but in a storytelling way with the philosophy that's interesting. That's like, this is actually how you make a friend. And the word friend matters.
- [44:04]
A
The word friend matters. Thank you. We say that word with 3, 4, 5 year olds just because they're short, suddenly they're all friends. And I think all human beings are not friends. We can all respect each other, not punch each other in the face and get along, but doesn't mean we have to like each other. We can respect each other's limits and not be friends. So kids in a classroom, they're not all going to like each other. These are just distinct individuals and they have their own personalities. Even siblings don't necessarily have to like each other, but they do have to get on and live in the same house together.
- [44:40]
B
And what I mean, we would be so well served to know these things and to start to learn them when we're young. You write, when we call young children friends, we confuse them and devalue friendship. A friend is not just anybody. A true friend is someone to be treasured, somebody who laughs at you, you, cares about you, and simply enjoys your company. And, you know, you talk about how kids are thrown together all the time and expected to play together before they're ready. But social skills are things you have to learn. And there is a lot to think about here. Making friends is not natural to every child. And I just have it like, you know, we talk about teach. You know, people say, you got to teach social skills. And then they're like, but how, how do you do it?
- [45:17]
A
And they hold up a picture and like, Here's a smile. It's better to, like, let them. That's one reason why I love the kind of wrestling games, because it forces emotional, you know, you want to keep playing the game, so you got to make sure the other person's happy, because if they're not happy, you can't wrestle by yourself. It's impossible. You need a partner. So that partner play really helps develop awareness of the others and respecting limits and setting limits and impulse control. So many good things.
- [45:47]
B
Okay, ready? Here comes a statement. That's quite a statement. You're talking about kids wiring being wired to move. This is huge. This is huge because kids are not given the opportunity to move. They're sitting. Angela Hanscom says nine hours a day is the current statistic. So kids are wired to move. They, you know, get rid of all the furniture, let them run through the house, get. Get them outside, give them space. Biologically, boys are in motion more than girls. And you say that boys are kicked out of preschool school at a rate of five times higher than girls. So boys especially learn through action. They need their physical energy valued. So you say physical activity is important for all children. And adults who make life more boyfriendly help girls, too. So that's a huge statement. Okay, you ready, Heather?
- [46:35]
A
I'm ready.
- [46:35]
B
What's the matter with high energy play? Women?
- [46:41]
A
Yeah, well, that's true. Not all women, of course, but. But it's getting at that concept that if you check in with a lot of adult men and it's often sort of the dad play, they'll kind of roughhouse or they'll remember what they did as kids, and they can. And a lot of the women, including myself and I wrote the darn book, I get nervous when I see some of that play. And I sometimes need to just walk out of the room because it doesn't make me feel comfortable. I know it's good for them, but do I. It just makes us nervous. And so when we get nervous and we feel things out of control, we shut it down. It's better to ask a question like, are you both having fun? Because sometimes one is having a great old time punching the other one or whatever, and the other one is not having a good time or tickling or something. So you need to check in and make sure that everybody's having fun. But otherwise, our comfort level is not the same as the kids comfort level and comfort needs.
- [47:41]
B
So kids need to move. They need to roughhouse. You talk about play fighting. You call it puppy play. It helps bodies and brains develop. It helps to develop the brain's frontal lobe, including the prefrontal cortex. I would imagine that there's kids that are hardly getting this. They're hardly getting that puppy play, the rough and tumble. You talk about putting safety second, but you know, there's. It's like such a balance, Heather, because it's not, you know, in some ways you would think it's like letting the kids have at it. And it's not that.
- [48:09]
A
No, it's not a free for all.
- [48:11]
B
It's not a free for all. So the other day we were in and I hadn't read your book yet, and I was like, oh, I could have used this. So we were. Had a friend's kid in the car with us and he was just being so loud, Heather. Like he was fake laughing and it was. I mean, it would hurt your ears and I'm. I'm pretty chill about that kind of stuff, but it was so loud and he kept doing it over and over and over again. And if I would have read your book, I would have just said, that is too loud for my ears.
- [48:39]
A
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I have that statement. You have rights too. When we talk about children's rights. Rights. That doesn't mean adults don't have rights. And the limit setting we say about you can't take this out of my hand, you know, with a kid wanting the same toy. Adults can set limits. Kids can set limits on each other. There's a whole. Human beings can set limits on each other. And that is. Yeah. When you're saying too active bodies, they can run through the house. Well, it depends. Depends what you're comfortable with. If it is your house. I don't actually have kids run through the house. They can run in the basement, they can run outside. If there's maybe on this old sofa, they can jump on it. But no, they can't jump on the furniture. I mean, every house is going to have your own limits. But there are. Bodies can be active. There's nothing wrong with jumping. But if you're going to jump, go outside. If you're going to jump, go to this room.
- [49:28]
B
Yeah. Yes. Or you can do that. Loud laughing when we get to where we need to go and you're no longer in the car because this is too loud for my ears. I. I just. It's amazing how you can walk away from one book and. And be like, oh goodness, if I learned a lot, I want to read a little bit more about the rough and tumble play. Especially since it's something that we sometimes avoid. You say Rough and tumble play. This is on page 220. Rough and Tumble play helps to develop the brain's frontal lobe, including the prefrontal cortex. This is the key brain region for executive function, the most complex human abilities. These include. Okay, so for those who would avoid rough and tumble play, which I think that's part of our culture, right. We're avoiding it. But when you allow this to happen, what happens? It helps with self control, resisting temptation, reasoning, focused attention, working memory, problem solving, and cognitive flexibility. The prefrontal cortex can be strengthened, much as exercising improves your muscles. The better this area is developed, the better kids do in all areas of life. Life, whether it's social, emotional or academic. Ongoing research by Adele diamond and others suggests that having strong executive function is the top predictor of kids success. Rough and tumble play must be welcomed. And then there was this quote. It's just as important to roughhouse with kids as to read them a story.
- [50:48]
A
Yeah, we don't think of it that way. I wish everyone could see your facial expressions because, you know, this is, this is ground shifting. This is totally different than how we've thought about the world. And it's either a waste of time or they're being violent and aggressive. You know, we're not thinking about how this is going to help them learn to read when they're seven. We're thinking, oh, they're just being obnoxious. You know, it's a complete shift when we really understand what's going on and why kids do it. They're programmed to do it and there's.
- [51:22]
B
A reason and it helps so much more than you could ever imagine. Okay, then you include games of chase, which really, like, as an adult, you're like, that's the biggest waste of time. They're playing tag, they're running after each other. And you say simple games of chase and wrestling contain complex social skills. Can you talk about the watching body language piece?
- [51:45]
A
Yeah, we mentioned that a little bit with sort of wrestling because that's certainly a type of rough and tumble play. But these are group games, so you can't chase nobody. You've got to. I mean, you could chase a bug that's hopping through the grass, but you're chasing somebody else. And these kinds of games, and we're also talking not just say physical play like this, but often superhero games or good guy, bad guy play. It involves more than one person. So there's very complex reasoning. And as far as one watching you, you, you want to keep them involved and to watch if they're enjoying themselves, because otherwise it's such a fun game. But if, if you're not aware of their emotions and you're not aware of, of everything that they're feeling about the game, then they're not going to do it anymore and you're motivated to keep the game going. So it, it involves a level of developing emotional awareness. This is particularly good for those boys who. This comes a little later in their development, but it can help them if they have practice.
- [52:47]
B
So the whole thing is about, as the adult, like, be observant, pay attention. So like you wrote here, play is over when smiles stop. Step in and sort out a game that has gone too far. And every chapter has words to try and words to avoid, which I think is often the, the tricky part because you don't really know what to say. Like, you, you kind of know you're not supposed to say be careful, but you don't really know what am I supposed to say? Or maybe just say nothing. You know, you just say be careful is one of the empty phrases we say to children. It adds general anxiety without offering any specific help. So one option would be not to say anything, or another option would say, do you feel safe? You know, you say, don't rescue kids, don't lift them out of the tree. You can, you know, help guide them. But every chapter has this. Words to try, words to avoid. You know, what's going on? Are you both having fun? Do you have any rules? Stop. If someone says stop, you know all. You can play that game, but not here. Do it outside. It's like the ultimate parent coaching in this book. Yeah.
- [53:50]
A
Well, it's also because parents, not all parents are like you, Ginny. Not all of them can take nine pages of notes from a book they're reading. Right. So I wanted this book. You can read any chapter in any order. And then once you've read it and you're like, gosh, what was that thing I wanted? Just go to the very last page and there's the words to say. And you remember because it's meant to be kind of a cheat sheet because we're busy, busy. And so it's, you don't have to start at the beginning and go through and remember it all. It's, it's meant to be. If your kids are, say, having a lot of rough and tumble play, you can go right to that chapter and pull out those words. It's already. Yeah.
- [54:31]
B
And in fact, it almost looks like you could cut. I don't know people would do this with their books, but you could almost cut it out. You know, there's like this little. Because there's all these toolboxes. 10 Steps for Conflict mediation with kids legally. Get like, get an extra copy, cut it to pieces. You could though some of it, you know, you're like, okay, we're dealing with a lot of conflict in our home with siblings. What are the ten steps? And, and you have them, you, they're all here. And it's really helpful or active ideas for expressing anger once again. I mean there's lines there and you could just kind of cut around it. So don't buy one, buy two, buy two. It's very helpful.
- [55:09]
A
I know preschools that have taken the children's rights, the right to non interrupted play, et cetera, and posted them over the door of their, of their nursery or preschool or daycare.
- [55:20]
B
Yeah. All right, let's hit one more. Saying sorry is a cop out out.
- [55:25]
A
Yeah, well, I think besides you hit on, you know, besides sharing, which is such a universal one almost. The other thing that, that parents do all the time is say you're sorry. You know, tell your friend you're sorry to this kid you never met before. And so the kids learn how to say sorry in this insincere little voice. We've all heard it, it, they're forced to say it, they vocalize the words. But you can't force remorse. And that is the same with you can't force the generosity feeling. You can make a kid give up a toy. You can make them say sorry. But what we'd like, I mean, if. So if you're the wronged kid, we'll just say a kid. You know, somebody walked all over your painting or knocked down your tower of blocks, so you're feeling wronged. If somebody says sorry, I don't feel safe, I don't feel trust that that kid's not gonna do it again. Right. So the right to feel safe and not have your play interrupted, that's gone. All I'm gonna do the rest of the day is kind of hover over my blocks and make sure that kid's nowhere near me. So what works better is you want the kid who sort of did something to feel inside. You can't force someone to feel, but you can help them feel that. You can guide them towards it. You want them to feel a little bit of remorse if possible, but if they can't feel that because maybe it hasn't developed yet in that moment for them, you want them at least to stop doing what it was that wronged the Other person, it could be that they did it on purpose, that it was an accident, doesn't much matter. But that stop that behavior. And if the remorse feeling comes, great, it'll come eventually. And the child who feels wrong, they need to be able to feel safe enough to set a limit on someone and know that that limit will be respected. And if it's not that, they can ask for help to have that limit enforced. So the tower of blocks got knocked into. Instead of having them come say sorry, bring them back to the scene of the crime and say, wow, you were riding your bike so fast. Look, it knocked over Sarah's block. Sarah, did you like that? You know, have them. No, don't. It's also. Also, the kid will often say, you're being mean. That's the default. He's mean. Well, what specifically don't you like? He knocked over my blocks, so don't knock over my blocks again. They can't all do this, but sometimes they can begin to verbalize what it is specifically they don't want. Did you like it when he did that? No. What don't you want him to do again? Don't knock my blocks. Okay, so, Jake, don't knock Sarah's blocks over again. She doesn't want you to knock your blocks over again. Can you do that? What can we do to make that not happen? And usually if they know the specific thing and they agree to it, okay, I won't. I'll ride my bike over further away. I won't knock into your blocks next time. If they can verbally agree not to do it, 90% of the time, it won't happen again. But some of the times they will because impulse control is not fully developed. And maybe they're in a lousy mood or they skip their nap or they're hungry or they're just not able to do it right now. So they're not a bad kid, they're not in trouble. But if they knock over the blocks again when there was a limit set and they were. They agreed not to, then you think, oh, it's too hard for you right now. You know, you crashed into the blocks again. It's too hard for you right now. I'm going to take you away and we'll. We'll read a book or we'll ride our bikes in the front yard because it was too hard for you not to. Not to do it.
- [59:08]
B
Ah, all the steps are there.
- [59:11]
A
All the steps.
- [59:12]
B
You know, this one in particular you like. You can see how as an adult, you know, you're married, you know, you're dealing with co workers. How this could salvage and save so many of your relationships. Saying sorry is a cop out. What we want to teach kids is to stick around the scene to take responsibility for their actions and understand that their words, arms and legs can impact other people. Wouldn't the world change if we all knew that sorry pleases adults but is not meaningful to young kids? The goal is to teach children responsibility for their actions. Dismissing an event as just an accident lets kids off the hook. Saying sorry is not enough. And so once again, in all the scenarios, it's helpful for both. Both. It's helpful for the child who needs to learn how to verbalize when their boundaries have been crossed and it's helpful for the child who's crossing the boundaries. And all of it's like that. And that's why the play is so important. It gives opportunities for kids to be with other kids and to start to learn these skills. You talked about that kids should have time. Let your child be in the company of other children. What a book. Heather.
- [60:20]
A
Wow. Wow.
- [60:22]
B
I am so glad I read it. I wish I would have read it when my kids were younger, but even still, I'm so glad I read it. I got so much value out of it. It's called it's okay not to Share and other Renegade Rules for Raising Competent and Compassionate Kids. You also have a book for ages 8 to 12, so I'll make sure. I'll put that in the show notes. It's called the Griffins of Castle Carry and we love to read. So any, you know, and that that middle age reading is such a fun time. So I'll make sure. I'll put that that in the link.
- [60:48]
A
And Jenny, there's also a sequel. You do know that?
- [60:53]
B
No way. And that's what it's called. I've always been like, my kids are going up the slide and I think it's fine. It's called okay to go up the slide. Oh, I can't wait to read it. I can't wait. No, I didn't know there was a sequel and I have thought that my whole life. What is the problem with them going up the side if no one's getting hurt? Wow. Okay. Well I'm going to be reading that soon. Sequel. It's okay to go up the slide. Plus the Griffins of Castle Carry. Heather, thank you. Thank you for taking your time. These books are instrumental. They're so needed on so many levels. Obviously the play is missing, but then sort of the nuance here of how do we work through these different scenarios? And you cover so much and, and it's interesting because most parents probably don't know it and so we need to know it, but it makes it more interesting because it's learning something brand new. We always end our show with the same question. I don't want to miss it. The question is, what's a favorite memory from your childhood? That was outside.
- [61:51]
A
That was outside. Oh, goodness. Creaking with my brother walking down the creek and picking up rocks. And we often did it in tennis shoes with no socks. And so just that cold feeling of the water getting through your shoes.
- [62:06]
B
Oh, I love the word creaking. It is hard to find a good creek if you have access to a good creek. It is like heaven, you know. Oh, it's wonderful. I love that. Heather, thank you. Thank you for these incredible books that are so eye opening and so helpful and so needed in this day and age. You say less screens. Can we do a little bit less screens? You know, oh, you talk about the difference between crafts and art. Crafts can be fun, but kids need art. Go easy on the crafts. You talk. I mean, there's so much in here, but you know, and you're talking about cutting the screen time, not their play. It's just thing after thing. Wonderful book, Heather. Thank you so much for being here.
- [62:41]
A
Thank you too, and for your open mind because that's what we sometimes need is just a breath of fresh air to say, oh, that's why they're doing it that way. You are amazingly good host and you're also, I just love the fact that you can take new things in and incorporate it into. You already know, have such a depth already of knowledge of kids and the outdoors. So it's just my hat is off to you for being willing to have even more ideas because a lot of people think, oh, this is new and different. I'm going to shut the door on that. Thank you, Ginny. Lovely. Make their holiday unforgettable with a gift that says it all from Pandora Jewelry. A gift that tells a story and shows you know, theirs that doesn't just sparkle, but speak. This season, give a gift that's perfectly theirs. Whether you're shopping for a shiny surprise for your significant other, matching bracelets to celebrate your friendship or a heartfelt gift for a family member. Say more this holiday season with pandora. Shop@pandora.net or your local Pandora store.
- [63:46]
B
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- [64:08]
A
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