Ginny Urch (2:36)

Yeah.

Andi Colbert (2:37)

And so that is so meaningful to me. And that is sort of been my hope. I mean, obviously it's really neat when anyone will read your work or interact with your work, but when you have the privilege to hear like, oh, this is maybe meeting people in a, in a deeper way than just like, oh, I heard about that once and I moved on. And that's really been a lot of the heart behind. I don't want to jump too far ahead, but it's just been so much of the heart behind a lot of my work is to say, hey, it's easy to tell someone to heal. The hard work is what are the thousands of little tiny teeny decisions and steps underneath that? And in a way, like, that's what I see myself as sort of specializing in.

Ginny Urch (3:29)

She said, whenever I've been in a hard place and needed some gentleness, that's where I go. She's listened at least five times. She said, so, you know, it's interesting, you know, to have. I like the word companion and to know that you have something on your shelf. You know, a lot of books are one and done, you know, you read it, got a lot out of it, enjoyed it, you know, and it sits on the shelf or you take it to the library, you know, and give it away, or. But, you know, this is the companion on the shelf that you say, oh, I need a little bit of gentleness. I'm going to go back to it and back to it. So the book is called Try Softer. Then you also have strong, like water. Take what you need. Try softer. Can you give us. It's in the, it's in the book. But a little bit of the backstory where you have a therapist, you say, even therapists have therapists. And he says to you, have you ever tried softer? You know, and this is such good language because, I mean, I, I never heard it, never considered it, you know, and there's such a pressure, especially I think, in the, like, pull yourself up by your bootstraps. You use the phrase white knuckling it a lot, you know, try harder. Are you trying your best? I mean, we've got kids, you know, like, one of them's got an audition tonight for Frozen Junior. You know, when you're like, are you going to try your best? Type of language is, Is the language. And then someone says to you, have you tried softer?

Andi Colbert (4:45)

Mm. Yeah. Well, I'm. Thanks for asking about that.

Ginny Urch (4:49)

So.

Andi Colbert (4:49)

And what's interesting is the. The man who said his name is John, and he was actually my therapy supervisor, so I did have also a therapist, but then he. So in the work of becoming a therapist, you're sort of apprenticed into the work, and part of that is having a more experienced therapist that you sort of work under their license while you are sort of in more of a learning phase. So I had graduated from school, but I was still working towards my licensure. And so his name was John. And John was just such a special person in my life because he was one of those people who you would be around and you just could breathe easier. And it wasn't like. It wasn't really just about what he said, although obviously that was really impactful. But it was like the way I felt when I was with him. I felt a level. My nervous system could exhale. I could be who I was in a way that was especially then, really hard for me to do because I had still. Even though I had trained to become a therapist and I had been in some therapy, I still had a lot of pain in that, had not been tended to. So one day, pretty early in my work with John, I had brought in a couple of different really challenging cases that I was working on, and I was feeling really. I would call it over, responsible. I wanted to do a good job, but so much so that it was actually almost harming me. You know what I mean? It wasn't like, oh, I'm going to do my best. I'm going to show up and then I'm going to leave it. It was more like it felt like life or death. Even in situations where I was like, no, this is important, but not like urgent or not a crisis kind of. And so John, you know, he was so kind, and he was not condescending. And he says to me one day, andy, you're. You know, you're doing such a great job. Can see how you care about your clients. Like, I. I really appreciate what you're doing, but I'm just wondering, what if instead of trying so hard, what if you tried softer? And, you know, one of the things I talk about in the book, and oftentimes I will touch on this when I speak publicly, but it was one of those moments where I wish that it was like a switch flipped, and then I'm like, suddenly, here I am, you know, I'm finished. But it was. It Wasn't that. But it did shift something in me.

Ginny Urch (7:26)

Yeah.

Andi Colbert (7:27)

Like it made me maybe even similar to what you said a couple minutes ago. I've never heard someone say it that way.

Ginny Urch (7:33)

Right.

Andi Colbert (7:33)

Like it caused me to be. It even made me think about. I played so much basketball. I was like a star athlete growing up. I did. That was one of the ways that I survived a really traumatic childhood was sports gave me an outlet. But I remember feeling when I was talking to John, the feeling where when you shoot like a jump shot, if you try too hard, you'll miss.

Ginny Urch (8:00)

Yeah.

Andi Colbert (8:01)

And I could feel that in my body. I knew what that was like. I knew what it was like in a basketball game. When I was in my flow, I was working with my body versus just pushing, just, you know, just white knuckling. And that's shifted something in me and made me begin to really. It took about 15 years of exploring through my own therapeutic practice, my own work and healing. And that's sort of what. That's where this book Try Softer really was born.

Ginny Urch (8:38)

I love when there's just one conversation, you know, a phrase that can shift so much because all those things give me hope that if I'm in a hard spot, maybe the answer's coming today. Maybe it's going to be in a short conversation. You wrote that he asked you. I'm curious about why you're so hard on yourself. What would happen if you allowed yourself to release your grip on this situation instead of trying harder? What if you tried softer? The day I sat with John in his office totally changed the trajectory of my life because John was right. Pushing isn't always the answer. Wow. I think that a lot of people will relate with that and. And have the questions. And you address the questions in the book like, well, if I don't do it, who's going to do it? All those questions you address in the book Try Softer. One of the things you talk about is you talk about your childhood. And it's tricky because people have different events in their childhood and they look at them different ways, they feel different ways to them. And some people have different types of abuse. And so sometimes you might look at your situation and think, oh, it wasn't so bad. But you bring up a couple stories and talk about how you've had ramifications that lasted for a long time, maybe even up to today, about over accommodating. And you told this story. I was like a knife to my heart. Andy, about your birthday party and your mom leaves. Can you talk about that time in your life and the effects of, you know, the. In some. And she came back. So some people might be like, oh, well, that probably wasn't that big of a deal, but how sometimes these moments can really affect us and in ways that we don't really realize, maybe ever, but hopefully we do so that we can start to heal.

Andi Colbert (10:26)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, thank you for asking about that. I mean, I think that, you know, just to give a little bit of backstory to that, you know, what I would say is that the climate of my home for most of my life, there really wasn't a before where it was like. Because sometimes with trauma that happens. It was like you have a normal. And then something happens and then you. And then things are different and what can happen. And this isn't always true. This is why I give. I call myself like the caveat queen. And I own that because I give people lots of nuance and caveats because everyone has truly a different story. And I just, I honor that, you know, so. But in like histories for folks where there was no before, there wasn't a time when things were like, really there was enough, what is called good enough parenting. So you're getting enough support, enough resources. And that doesn't mean that there wasn't love in my home, but that there was significant trauma my whole life, my entire life. And so the climate in my home was that my mom had a significant history of trauma and abuse from her childhood. She was a refugee from Hungary and she had a lot that she came into the marriage with my dad with. And then my dad had a lot of mental health issues, a lot of addiction issues, and was very abusive in multiple ways. And so that was the dynamic.

Ginny Urch (12:02)

Yeah.

Andi Colbert (12:03)

And so when I was 13, things were, I would call them, they were, they were crescendoing. And there were, you know, I have four siblings and, and I won't go into their stories, but my older brother and sister were out of the house and they had been more of a little bit of a protective barrier. You know, having more of. Of us sort of changes the dynamic. And so at 13, I had sort of taken on a role. I was extremely parentalized. I was extremely over aware of things that were not appropriate for me to know about. And so in that time, yeah, it was my, it was my 13th birthday party. My mom had been going through a lot of. My parents had been fighting almost constantly. I mean, police being called to our house and I mean, just a lot of things that. There was also a lot of pressure to not let Anyone else know? We lived in a somewhat small community. There was a lot of pressure to uphold sort of an image about our family. And so that created this external internal fragmentation right. Where I would go to school and I would. I got good grades and I was a good athlete, and I had to sort of very much perform because I felt like that's what I owed my family. And so in the context of that, my mom. Yeah, she essentially became suicidal. She left on the eve of my birthday. And, you know, I don't know that she even realized that. I mean, I think she did in some respects, but I just think she was in such a place of pain that I don't think she saw the ramifications. And so I didn't find out until I was an adult that she was suicidal. But I knew it in my body.

Ginny Urch (14:09)

Yeah.

Andi Colbert (14:10)

Like, I knew because my mom was the safer parent, but she was in such distress and so much pain. And I very much, as her kiddo and being really parental, I knew that. And so, yeah, in the midst of that, we did the birthday party. We did the sleepover anyway. And I just remember the absolute. I mean, I. I didn't have words for it then, but I was so dissociated, like I was disconnected from my body in order to be able to do that and still be in that much pain because it was traumatic. And eventually. Eventually we did. My mom did come home. And, you know, many years later, my mom became. So. She had a history of. Of alcohol abuse. And eventually we, you know, she became sober and has done a lot of work in her life, and. And I'm so grateful that she has really done a lot to. To repair.

Ginny Urch (15:17)

Yeah.

Andi Colbert (15:18)

And that has meant so much. And I write about that later in Strong like or in Try Softer and Strong Like Water, about how meaningful that was, that. That she chose to not minimize and to not pretend and to not say, well, Andy, you seem like you turned out okay, so you should be fine. Right. And not that that wasn't hard for her, and not that there hasn't been things, because when you have complex trauma, which is part of my story, there isn't just one thing. There are often thousands of things.

Ginny Urch (15:53)

Right.

Andi Colbert (15:54)

And so. But that was a. That was a big one for me and what I would call. Categorized as what would. Would be called big T trauma.

Ginny Urch (16:02)

Yeah.

Andi Colbert (16:03)

Because I experienced the belief that my mom died for almost eight days without knowing where she was or what happened.

Ginny Urch (16:14)

Yeah. Or if she's going to come back.

Andi Colbert (16:16)

Or she's going to come back.

Ginny Urch (16:17)

Yeah. It is interesting when you look at it from the perspective of an adult. You know, you talked about her past and even that she had been in this house fire and had lost siblings. I mean that as an adult you can really understand or try to understand what that must have been like. But when you're 13, you don't have that perspective and you can't really dive deep into where is all this coming from? It's just the climate of your home. I want to read this. I. I think it was like one of the saddest lines I've ever read in a book. Andy, you wrote, typically my mom woke way before us to get an early start on the day. But instead of seeing her coffee cup on the table or the warm light of the chandelier, I found only a short note saying that she loved us but couldn't stay anymore. I had invited 10 girls over for a slumber party the next day, but now I felt as if someone had thrown a heavy wet blanket on me. I couldn't move. I simply ached because where was my mom? Oh, I was like, that's probably one of the saddest lines I've ever read in a book. Where was my mom and you talk about inside? I was terrified and I feared she was dead. In a week or so later she did come back. But you know, these things you can see then in your book through your story. Then you, you know, you become this person that has a tendency to want to over accommodate when someone has expectations and you have a hard time trusting. You said you had intern to never let your guard down. You have this conversation with John, you can see how it would be so shifting. Why are you so hard on yourself? I'm curious, you know, like, well, that's why. This is why you're so hard on yourself. You know, you know the story. Does anyone else feel like the holidays just showed up overnight? One minute we're picking pumpkins and the next I'm looking around my house thinking, wait, do we have enough guest towels? Where's the wreath from last year? 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Go to quints.com outside for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N c e.com quinn/outside to get free shipping and 365 day returns quints.com outside you had said your nervous system could relax around John. And you know, that's one of those things that you hope for your own self. Like, am I that type of person? What is it about John that made your. Made it so that your nervous system could relax around him?

Andi Colbert (20:48)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, what I have come to really learn and. And that's why I go so much into, like, neurobiology in the book and try to, you know, equip fol. But part of it is this reality, and this is where I even touch on some faith integration or parts for folks that are interested in that. That there is this sort of reciprocity that is inherent in being human. You know, And I think, like, this is what Jesus speaks to when he says, love your neighbor as yourself. Right. And I always talk about that because a lot of people say love your neighbor, and I think that's beautiful. But to honor the fullness, we honor that. There's a bothness there. There's an both ant and in our nervous systems. And this is what I experienced from John. John was not perfect, but he was grounded and regulated in his own body. And what happens. And this is what I mean when I say it was like, more than the words. Right. And what we know is that our communication. I. I might be off on this, but I think it's something like 80% nonverbal. Yeah.

Ginny Urch (22:01)

That's a lot.

Andi Colbert (22:02)

That's profound.

Ginny Urch (22:04)

Right.

Andi Colbert (22:05)

And then this connects with something else that's called polyvagal theory, which is this idea that our body is constantly assessing for safety or threat. And. And that means that these things that we're giving off these nonverbal cues. So it's our facial expressions, it's our posture, it's our breathing, it's even the tightness of our chest or our shoulders or all those things, they are just giving off signals to folks around us. Right. Including our kiddos.

Ginny Urch (22:38)

Yeah.

Andi Colbert (22:39)

And. And listen, I don't say this to put pressure on people because it's not about white knuckling into being regulated, but I think there is a need for us to bring some. You know, what I talk about in the book is compassionate attention.

Ginny Urch (22:54)

Yeah.

Andi Colbert (22:55)

That if we can become aware. And this is what John, I think, knew before I even really had the language for it. And John didn't even position it this way, but it was the fruit of his own work in his life that he could show up for me in a way that allowed me to be myself. And that was a cue of safety to me. Right. And so when we do our own work, we actually are inherently, organically better positioned to love our neighbor as ourselves. Because, I mean, so many things happen, but part of it is, is that we actually more accurately attune to the people around us, including our kiddos. Right?

Ginny Urch (23:44)

Yeah.

Andi Colbert (23:45)

So so much attachment work, so much of the work, you know, the research that has been done around parenting and secure attachment, understanding how to attune is related to can we inhabit our own bodies not perfectly, but in a way that feels safe enough, because that better equips us to sort of, sort of give off cues of safety, as John does, and also attend to people around us in a way that's more like a dance than what I had learned, which was that I was stuck outside myself, I was stuck over attuning. And really what we want is for there to be this dance of attention where it's like, I can be with you, but then I can return to myself. And over time, we get better at that fluidity.

Ginny Urch (24:48)

It's one of those things that I think especially when you're an adult and maybe especially when you're a mother, you're kind of run ragged, right? You know, you're going here and there. And it would seem as though taking this time to sort of dive deep and to learn and to work through, work through really hard things would almost feel selfish. And yet you can see through your story, just as one little story about this John, you know, about how the result of that permeates so far. So far, it permeates to the woman who has listened to your book at least five times. It's permeated to all the women who have come up, all the people who have come up with their dog geared books, you know, and notes written in them. And so it just goes to show that, yes, it's for yourself, but also I think in turn it just, it matters, it matters for community. And it extends out. It's a. It's a. I think it's very inspiring to me to hear things like that because it makes you want to be that type of person. You know, I want to be the type of person where people feel safe in my presence. You talk about a lot, a lot about women, so you say. Most of my clients were adolescent girls or adult women, all of whom seem to be experiencing an onset of heartbreak. You talk about your own heartbreaks, talk about when you graduated from college, you've been engaged, secured a job, and then broken off the engagement, and then quit the job, and then you move to a whole new city. And our life is tricky. Life is layered and tricky. So you've got a lot of these clients and women that you speak to, and you said this. Psychiatrist Kurt Thompson explains that an infant. This does feel like a lot of pressure, too, but I feel like you're gonna be able to bring it back to gentleness. An infant will absorb his mother's anxiety simultaneously with the milk from her breast. So there is a level of importance here, to a degree of trying to figure out how to be a little calmer.

Andi Colbert (26:46)

Yeah. Yep. Thank you for just honoring that, even in saying, like, oh, wow, that does feel like pressure.

Ginny Urch (26:52)

Right.

Andi Colbert (26:52)

Like, and what I want to say.

Ginny Urch (26:54)

My milk. Right, right, right.

Andi Colbert (26:56)

Yeah.

Ginny Urch (26:57)

And even when you're pregnant, I think, like, my midwife would say here and there, like, you know, you got all those hormones there. You know, the baby's being sort of bathed in those hormones in the womb.

Andi Colbert (27:07)

Yeah, yeah.

Ginny Urch (27:09)

Well.

Andi Colbert (27:09)

And I think this is such an important piece, and this is actually why I try to be as gentle. Not the only reason, but this work. It does matter. It does matter. And I think it's important for us not to pretend that it doesn't. But it's also really important that we understand that the compassion that we offer ourselves in the places where we are not always getting it right is as important as getting it right.

Ginny Urch (27:46)

Yeah.

Andi Colbert (27:48)

Yes. So if there's anything, like, if you are a mom or a parent hearing this today and you're like, well, dang it, like, I don't know. I don't. I don't know. Like, how am I gonna do this? Because this is so common. And anytime I talk about attachment or this parenting piece, I mean, I myself, I'm a trauma survivor. Like, I get it. I have carried in my body. I carry the generational realities of what I myself have lived, what my mom has lived, what my dad has lived. You know, my ancestors from Europe, some. I mean, there's not. This is. These are not easy things. But where I think our culture and sometimes even the church really falls short is this idea that in the midst of that kind of pain, that the answer would be shame, that the answer would somehow be, well, maybe you just now need to try harder.

Ginny Urch (28:45)

Right.

Andi Colbert (28:46)

And I think what we get wrong around a lot of this is, oh, but what if. Similar to what John was talking about, what if we could soften into honoring where that pain came from in the first place? Because oftentimes. Right. We've got generations of running. And this is valid, too. I want to name that. That how we survive trauma how we just. How we survive overwhelming experiences. Our bodies are literally designed to do these things. There is no shame in that. I am not ashamed of the person that I was and. And how I survived. It's not that I want to continue in that way, but I do recognize that I had very little choice. Right. And the paradox of this work is that as we offer compassion as we can. As we can say, you know, that served a purpose, these things serve a purpose. And as we can honor them, we can then begin to say, and what choices do I have now?

Ginny Urch (29:57)

Yeah.

Andi Colbert (29:58)

Because in that place is where we actually get the opportunity to repair. And we repair with ourselves, but maybe we also repair in some ways with our kiddos. Like, just because we've made mistakes, just because we've done things that haven't always offered security to our kids, doesn't mean that that's how. How it has to continue. And because that's true, one of the things that's important to understand about attachment work is it's not a diagnosis. It's a template that we carry in our body. And this template is constantly changing and being informed by our experiences in the world.

Ginny Urch (30:43)

Yeah.

Andi Colbert (30:44)

So if we have been showing up in a way that isn't necessarily as secure as we want, doing this work is part of the shifting towards being able to offer that good enough parenting.

Ginny Urch (31:00)

You have so many practical tools, too, and so many beautiful questions, like, what is the gentlest thing I could do today? You know, what is it that I need to go through this torment? And then you have all sorts of language in here that you can use. Talk about going outside. You talk about practicing mindfulness and paying attention, and that it is these small shifts that can really start to make a difference. And then you're modeling to your kids how to repair if there are some things that happen that are not ideal. So it's really just a beautiful, beautiful book about, you know, how. How to deal with the hard things in our life and then how that extends out to others. So I just. I mean, I can see why people read it over and over again, and they come back to it. And you have all these language, these little sidebars in there, and you say you're doing better than you think. And you talk about, you know, that there's no shame in surviving. And you talk about how God says that we're his beloved, and God is always on our side, that God is our best resource. And then you have all. Then you're like. And also you can sing, and also you can shake your body. And, you know, there's just a. It's. It's like there's a breadth to the book, a breadth to the book of your stories, of your mom's stories, of the sort of small things you can do and the little questions you can ask, but also the bigger picture of it all, though your window of tolerance. You just get a whole lot out of it. You go back through it time and time again. You talk about how the prodigal. The story of the prodigal son is one of your favorite stories. And you talk about how that one of the primary aspects of God is that he's a parent, and not just any parent. You write a good, kind, compassionate, stable, loving and safe parent. Can you talk about the way that God aches for us, the way that he receives us, and what we can learn through that story of the prodigal son?

Andi Colbert (32:57)

Yeah, yeah. I.

Ginny Urch (33:00)

It is.

Andi Colbert (33:01)

It is true. I mean, I just. I. That story, I think, to me, is such a beautiful model, I think both to me personally, but I think also for parents just generally speaking, that, you know, and there's obviously, there's all these layers. So often in scripture, like, there are layers, right. To different stories. And you could look at it from this lens, and you could look at it from this lens. And I think that's one of the things that's really beautiful about. About scripture for me and in the world work that I do from the lens that is really often pops for me, is the father's sort of reception of the son.

Ginny Urch (33:44)

Like.

Andi Colbert (33:45)

Like, for me, that's a. It's a really big deal because. Yes, it's like we've got these stories of the two different sons and how they react and all these different things. And. And that makes sense, right? We've got lots of different people in the world. We experience the world differently. We. We react to pain differently at times. So I think these sons, they kind of model this. Right. And then we have what I think is this beautiful example of what I would think of as a secure base.

Ginny Urch (34:14)

Yeah.

Andi Colbert (34:15)

And I'm using that language through the lens of attachment. Right. That. And in parenting, again, it's not about being perfect. And as a quick sidebar, I just want to say this because sometimes I find this to be very affirming for parents who are working to provide secure attachment for kiddos. Is that in research, secure attachment looks like one third of the time attuning accurately to your kiddo, one third of the time repairing with where you've missed, and then one third of the Time, you probably just will get it wrong. And so that means two thirds of the time, you're, like, in the ballpark, right? So this matters. This is two thirds of the time. This is not. You better go be perfect or else. And I just think this is beautiful because when we're talking about secure attachment, which I think is part of what I think God offers us.

Ginny Urch (35:14)

Yeah.

Andi Colbert (35:15)

And God can offer us. Right. And sometimes we're not always in a place to be able to access it, but I think it's there and available. Available. And so the father in this story, you know, he sees the son from a long way off, and he is so excited. He's not like, oh, I can't wait for you to get home because I'm about to give you a piece of my mind. He's not like, I'm about to just tell you all the lessons and make sure I shame you on the spot because you really mess things up. But his posture is the child, his child, even an adult child.

Ginny Urch (35:56)

Right.

Andi Colbert (35:57)

He's like, you are my child, and I want to be with you and I want to be near you, and I want to throw this party for you because I've missed you so much.

Ginny Urch (36:09)

Right.

Andi Colbert (36:10)

And I love this way in which it doesn't mean that there wasn't a time later. We don't, you know, obviously this is a parable where that son, maybe where the father checked in and said, hey, how was that time? What was that like, being away, you know. You know, having. What was it like when you. When all the money was gone? Like. Because it doesn't mean that there's not a time to sort of what I would call correct or to have conversations. But, you know, the work of Dr. Dan Siegel, he talks about with kiddos, we connect and then we. Correct.

Ginny Urch (36:52)

Right.

Andi Colbert (36:53)

And I believe that's God's posture towards us. That God, you know, it's God's kindness that leads us towards repentance.

Ginny Urch (36:59)

That's right.

Andi Colbert (37:00)

Right. And so these. This idea of connection, I think, is so deeply important that God leads with that connection that, you know, even as you and I speak, you know, it's early December, and it's. It's Advent, and it's this time, and. And I always. Advent is so meaningful to me because it is just the absolute. It's like a neon sign of secure attachment. God with us.

Ginny Urch (37:25)

That's right.

Andi Colbert (37:26)

God with us, moving towards us, becoming embodied.

Ginny Urch (37:32)

That's a big.

Andi Colbert (37:33)

A, big deal. Right. So all of these things, I think, are this evidence of this way of God's posture to say, I'm not sitting here waiting for you to get in trouble. I want to be with you. And so that story, that's why that has been so meaningful. And I think it's a model for us as parents to say what our kid, our kiddos, often needs from us is first and foremost that connection. Because similar to even how John did for me, like what we talked about, it was the connection. It was the regulation that set the table for everything else. So much of the work that I've done happened because John connected with me.

Ginny Urch (38:23)

Yeah. I mean, it just shows how much impact that that can have. And you wrote this. I thought this was so deep and something to really remember with the prodigal son. You say the experience itself was enough of the teacher. And that's a really good point because here he is, he's eating with the pigs, and probably in this panic moment, like you said, his money runs out and he's thinking, gosh, maybe I. Maybe I should go back. How will I be received? Like, there would be so much grappling there. And you wrote the father was too busy preparing for the celebration. What, what he do say? He wasn't listening. Cause the prodigal son comes back and is like, you know, I'm the worst, basically. I can't remember what the exact words are. Right. And you say the father wasn't listening because he was too busy preparing for the celebration. What a beautiful picture of the way God aches for us, receives us, and loves us again and again. He comes for us. He lovingly finds us. He makes a way where there is no way. During our hardest, scariest times, whether our bodies feel stressed and jumpy or sluggish and slow, God is there to reassure us that we are not defined by our best days or our worst days. We are his beloved. God Himself is our best resource, the safest, best attachment we could ever have. And he is the only one who doesn't need to make repair attempts. Then you talk about how our attachments, styles that we learn through our childhoods or. Or I guess I don't know if that's how you would say that, but that they can often affect how we view God. So you say I experience God as a tyrant. Never pleased with anything I did. I longed to know him as good. Instead, I couldn't help but feel I was always in trouble, just waiting for the other shoe to drop. So it's another reason to really learn and to sort of dig into your childhood. You have this phrase, which I actually Think is kind of sad. Earned secure attachment. But I get it. I get it, right? Like, but it's also, like, kind of sad. You're like, oh, like, you know, some people just have that. You went through some percentages, you know, and then for some people, you kind of. You got to earn it a little bit.

Andi Colbert (40:25)

Yeah, yeah, I think that's valid. And I do. You know, there's often a lot of grief, actually, that comes with this work. All of the work. I mean, not just this attachment work. Though, to be totally honest, I would say almost any trauma work ends up being attachment work.

Ginny Urch (40:42)

Oh, that makes sense.

Andi Colbert (40:43)

And this. This is because in order to heal, you know, even though I'm talking a lot about the internal work that we do with ourselves, notice that part of this came from John. Right? Like it came with John being with me. It came from one. A really important resource in my life has been my relationship with my husband. I've had some great therapeutic support. I've had good friends. I've had people who have sort of been able to pour into me. And that has then been part of what gave me the sort of fuel. And obviously God, right? Like that experience of God as. Not that tyrant, but what I would call more a. At times, they were just these experiential ways of being contemplative, just God with me. And that was the teacher, right. Rather than it being through the lens of other people saying, this is what God is like. It was like, oh, no, I experience God and I know what God is like.

Ginny Urch (41:42)

Right.

Andi Colbert (41:42)

And so that also was a resource to help me to say. That actually doesn't. That doesn't align with my experience of God. And even, you know, being able to look through attachment research and understanding. Oh, I had a really abusive father. I had a mom who wasn't able to show up for me in the ways that I needed and I couldn't. Wasn't able to protect me. It makes sense that. And. And this is what we know from research is that are the. The attachment styles that we often receive from our primary attachments, right. So often our caregivers, although that can also be other people who maybe are really in your life. We sort of internalize those.

Ginny Urch (42:28)

Right.

Andi Colbert (42:29)

And so if we have, like I, by the grace of God, think that I'm mainly operating from an earned, secure attachment these days. Now, that doesn't mean there are times when patterns from old wounds show up. There are times, right. So it's not about perfection. The thing that's different now is that I know what to do with that pain. I know how to be with that pain to, to help work with it. And so, so it's important to understand that, yes, our stories, the ways we were parented, the ways we were cared for, often literally live in our body as templates. And then oftentimes that's how we will experience relationships in our life, including God. And so that's a part of why doing our own work, bringing this compassionate attention does matter, because that's actually where we can shift the template. And that's where, as you say, this earned sense, right, which there may be grief to having to say, oh, some people were given this right, and I have to choose it. I have to go back into the pain to be able to metabolize that in order to perhaps show up in the world with that. And so, you know, if earned and, and this is something I say to people, like, it's okay to honor what you feel with certain language too. So that is the clinical name for it. But if, if you don't, like, if you're like, hey, man, that doesn't feel great, honestly, like, you can just think about it, like, okay, it's secure attachment. I'm working from a secure base or a safe base or whatever is helpful. Because this isn't about necessarily being clinical. It's about saying, can I give myself permission knowing that God's posture is already compassionate, it's already kind? That's not the question. Could I give myself permission to access that kind of care and love?

Ginny Urch (44:40)

I do think that there is something to be said about the experience, the sort of unfolding experience of having a childhood. And like you said, there's nuance. So, like, you've got this childhood it, and then you end up being someone that feels like you're maybe overworking or over people pleasing or, you know, you're do. Do doing, doing, trying to be perfect, trying to have a facade, you know, that in your small community, everyone thinks it this way, but it's not really until you. You're masked. And then to read a story like the Prodigal Son, it. You know, it's like, that would be the ideal situation, but it's definitely more powerful. It's certainly a more powerful situation than when you read it and you're like, oh, wait a minute, wait a minute. Like, I can go without any pretense. I can show up and have screwed up so badly, lost all the money, all of it, eating with the pigs. And how does God respond? So there's hope in that, I think.

Andi Colbert (45:36)

Yeah, yeah, I Think that's such a. That's such a beautiful reminder. And I just think that, you know so often, and. And I just want to point out that even if you don't have a story where you're like, man, I really feel like I got a lot of good enough parenting, and there are people listening who. That's your story. And that's amazing. And we live in the world that we do, in the culture that we do. And sometimes these narratives don't just come from your family of origin. They come from the systems that we exist in.

Ginny Urch (46:08)

Yeah, that's true.

Andi Colbert (46:09)

They sometimes come from faith settings. They come from just our bigger culture. They come from academia. They come from all these places that say, hey, if you hustle hard enough, then you matter.

Ginny Urch (46:23)

Yes.

Andi Colbert (46:23)

And that also shapes our nervous system, and that also shapes how we see ourselves. And that's still attachment work. And so I just invite you, for folks who are listening, just to bring that curiosity. Right. That part of it is about honoring. If you resonate with that, then that's for you. And it's partly getting curious about in what way is it for you? In what way does that compassionate attention allow you to soften into the. The deeper truth, which is that we are created to work from love and all the places and spaces that require us to earn our value. This is where we're going to get things. This is where things are going to come out sideways. This is where there's going to be more pain. This is where there's going to be facades. This is where there's going to be these types of patterns. Because as humans, we are designed for connection first and foremost.

Ginny Urch (47:25)

I'm so glad that you brought that up because you have this sentence in the book. Try softer. That says, we've been socialized, parented, and wired to over function. We've been so socialized, parented, and wired to over function that we don't recognize when our bodies are stressed, traumatized, and exhausted until the consequences are dire. And I had read a book where the author was talking about how sometimes parents will say, I don't care what grades they get. I don't care if they do their homework. Like, they're just pretty chill about all of it. And the kids are still really pushing themselves. I want to get the A. I need to get this score. And as I D, I need. And the parents are confused. And the author was like, well, they live outside of your home. You know that's right. Other experiences that are pouring into them, and they're getting messages like you said from the broader culture. So I'm so glad that you brought that up because there are a lot of factors here. The book is just absolutely wonderful. Wonderful. It's called Try softer, A fresh approach to move us out of safety and to move us out of anxiety, stress and survival mode and into a life of connection and joy. There's also take what you need, soft words for hard days. Wouldn't these be beautiful? Oh, beautiful Christmas gifts, you know, like, oh, take. I mean, this is a gorgeous book. This is when you leave out on the coffee table, right? Like take what you leave in the kitchen, buy your coffee pot, take what you need, software words, soft words for hard days. It's a gorgeous book. And then there's also strong like water. Finding the freedom, safety and compassion to move through hard things and experience true flourishing. You have a new sub stack, so I'll make sure I'll put all the links and people can go to your website and find more information as well. Maybe there'll be more books in the future so you can be in the know. But I wanted to wrap up with this one topic of beauty hunting. So, you know, as we're heading into a new year and I just think that's why the whole point of the podcast is that, you know, getting outside has really been pushed to the wayside in a culture of over performing and over functioning and hustling and trying harder. And so what gets lost, play gets lost and downtime gets lost and hands on living gets lost and getting outside, you know, gets lost. And you talk about beauty hunting as being a kindness to us, a way of trying softer. Can you talk about that?

Andi Colbert (49:38)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm so glad that resonated with you and I love that the emphasis you put on getting outside. I just think that matters for us so much. It matters for kids so much. And you know, as a trauma therapist, I cannot overstate the profound resource of being outside and specifically beauty hunting. I think I think of it literally as so in strong like water, I use the language of what's called compassionate resourcing. And what I mean by that is essentially it's cues of literal safety to our body. And that might sound really clinical, but here's what that means is it is a way in which this important part of our nervous system called the vagus nerve gets activated. And this vagus nerve is sort of like, this is the nerve that sort of makes us come alive to connection and goodness and relationship and care and creativity. All the things that really allow us to be the Most who God designed us to be. And so beauty hunting I think of as, you know, just. It's this practice, right, of helping to allow our attention to be focused on things that sort of bring that awareness to that beauty. Because, you know, our nervous system, it gets shaped around what we pay attention to. Now, here's where there's some caveats, because I'm the caveat queen, is that doesn't mean like, that we bypass pain. But what it does mean is that recognizing, particularly if you are a person who has a history of trauma, your body has a literally had to be shaped around danger and threatened. What that means is, is that all this goodness, all this beauty, is getting bypassed. And that means the resources that comes from that is also not being accessed. So in a way, it's a reorientation. It's saying, yes, there is a reality in which there's pain, in which really hard things happen. And part of what will allow us to navigate the pain is the goodness is the beauty. And there's some really amazing research around. I mean, we could put it in so many things. There's. There's research around awe from, like, Dacher, Keltner and some of his work around what that means for us to really observe and allow ourselves to be impacted by what we're seeing. And the last thing I'll even say about that is it doesn't have to be, you know, what we think of as stereotypical beauty.

Ginny Urch (52:28)

Right.

Andi Colbert (52:29)

You know, like, I think of it like it's almost anything that makes you pause and look at it a little bit closer and bring a little bit of that wonder to that experience. And to just sit with that and allow that to sort of be a balm.

Ginny Urch (52:50)

Yeah.

Andi Colbert (52:51)

To sort of. To support and even maybe minister to those parts of us that especially need to see that.

Ginny Urch (53:00)

It just circles back, Andy. Like, this is a place where our nervous systems can relax. And if you don't have a person where you can be in their presence and your nervous system relaxes, God has provided his creation. I read a really good book that came out recently, earlier this year by Dr. Mark Berman. It's called the Nature of the Mind. And he talks about how there are people that take design principles from nature for the indoors, you know, and. And he talked about fractals and just the. The sort of science and math behind what is it that when we're outdoors, it's, like, not linear. There's no straight lines in nature, you know, and all these things are what help us to feel good. And that's the way that God made it, if you're looking at it from that worldview. And so I love that we circle back there at the end that it doesn't have to, like you said, doesn't have to be a double rainbow. And it does. Like you talked about sunsets and beautiful things, but it can be just a simple fractals that are in the trees and the leaves and the shimmer on the snow or, you know, wherever you live, it can be, you know, one clear night on the coast, you say, could revive anyone's belief in God. But it could just be a house plant. That's right. That's right. And those types of things can help your nervous system relax.

Andi Colbert (54:15)

Yeah, I. And I love, I love that you say that because that's actually one of the things that, you know, just generally speaking, when we're talking about helping people build a repertoire of resources in their life. And for those who've experienced really significant trauma, sometimes relationships don't feel super accessible yet. Like they have to start really small. And one of the things actually in strong, like water, I really go into. Into is that oftentimes nature is one of the most accessible things because it provides so many cues of safety and beauty and, and, and a form of connection and regulation that actually builds. It helps us build into sometimes other forms of safety. And so, yeah, I love that you already just organically intuited that because that is, I think, a really important, important part of the work.

Ginny Urch (55:12)

Yeah, it's 650 episodes, Andy. We've actually never talked about that. Isn't that amazing? There's just always more. There's always more to uncover about how God has made this world to, to. To help us. I want to read this. I. I thought of this song. My kids, my girls, they really like the singer. Her name's Avery Anna. And this song made me think of your story. It's called Cheerios. It says, Daddy's on the porch first packs in the ashtray it's 15 past class started right at 8 and Ms. Johnson knows why I'm not there all that's in the fridge is wonder bread and mayonnaise Wonder if he knows Saturday's my birthday Even if he did he wouldn't care and the course goes. Wasn't coke in his sonic cup Never knew him never drunk it's kind of sad when your heroes face down in his Cheerios her songs are incredible, but those words and I just, you know, people have really hard childhoods and, you know, I think you have given a path to work through those, through Try Softer and through your other books. And you've also given parents a different lens to look through as well, you know, in terms of as you're raising kids and the attachment piece and the repair, how to make the repairs. And so there's just so much in here. And all the little sidebars, I mean, there was sideways bar after sidebar. Try Softer language. There were verses about how God views you as his beloved. You know, I just have notes after notes. Try Softer affirmations. Just different, beautiful affirmations in here. What does safety feel like? All the sidebars. So just the scriptures for building secure attachment with God. You just get so much out of it. So much out of the book. Gosh, what an honor and huge shout out to my dear friend who. Who passed along your work to me. And it has just been so meaningful in my life as well. We always end our show with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood? That was outside?

Andi Colbert (57:08)

Yeah, you know, I have some great. Actually have. I actually have several because being outside was really actually a resource to me. And I'm going to give you two. One was that I would always go and shoot hoops like I play. I mean, I started playing basketball at like 8 years old. Yeah.

Ginny Urch (57:29)

You said you're beating the boys already.

Andi Colbert (57:31)

Oh, yeah. I go play pickup basketball outside. And then I would say a tie with that is. I just remember late summer with my. One of my brothers and we would get all the neighborhood kids and we would play these huge games of tag and hide and go see. And I. I have these memories of smelling the grass and, you know, the sun. Sunset is like. It's getting dusk and. Yeah, that's. Those are. Those are special memories.

Ginny Urch (57:55)

I have to. I think you'll think this is interesting. I read a book this week and I'm interviewing the person today, and I find a lot of times that the. The episodes like, interweave. It's so interesting. But it's a book called Nation of Wimps and it's from 2008. It's an older book and it's a. It's a phenomenal book, actually. It's like one of my favorites I've ever read. And the author said that playing things like tag and hide and seek is like playing survival. Isn't it interesting that she said all these games that we play there, you know, it's like. It's giving you like, a small dose of anxiety, a small dose of thrill and how important that is for a rapidly Changing world and for the hard things we go through.

Andi Colbert (58:34)

Yeah.

Ginny Urch (58:35)

Well.

Andi Colbert (58:36)

And that's the beautiful thing about play. I'll just say this really quickly. I know we need to wrap up, but one of the things that's super interesting about play is that it's actually, from a nervous system perspective, a mixed state. And what that means is, is that we bring safety and regulation to, like, sympathy, our sympathetic nervous system. So the sympathetic is where our fight and flight live and that kind of thing, but it brings safety with it. And so here's what I think is so important, and this is why play really matters for kids, is that we actually don't want to get up, get rid of discomfort.

Ginny Urch (59:11)

Right.

Andi Colbert (59:11)

And that's right. So play allows us to access discomfort in a way that's safe, and that is part of a really important part of human development, is that we have safety with discomfort. And those things together. Together build resilience.

Ginny Urch (59:30)

Yes. Because it's not comfortable we chased.

Andi Colbert (59:33)

That's right. But it is fun, right? It is fun when you know it's gonna end up okay.

Ginny Urch (59:40)

Yeah. Right.

Andi Colbert (59:41)

And that teaches our nervous system that it's safe to play.

Ginny Urch (59:45)

Yeah.

Andi Colbert (59:46)

Right. And that also teaches us really important skills about what it means to be human. So, anyways, I just wanted to share.

Ginny Urch (59:54)

That, but I love that you brought up tag and hide and go seek, because other people have not said that. And it was interesting that this book said you're basically playing at survival and that a lot of the games that kids do are like that. So what an interesting thing. So much to learn. This has been such an honor. Andie, thank you so much for being here.

Andi Colbert (60:09)

Absolutely. And thank you for having me. Thanks for the work that you're doing. Yeah. I was honored that you asked.