B (2:26)

Yeah, you don't have to.

A (2:28)

And you're like, this is not a moral thing.

B (2:30)

And.

A (2:30)

And I feel like I've chosen other things besides cleaning, and I'm kind of happy with my choices. So, you know, that was helpful. I would love to kick it off here, though. I actually have never heard this phrase before. Casey. Care tasks. I never heard the phrase. So even this. This is, like, such an epiphany. You say care tasks are the chores of life, like cooking, cleaning, laundry, feeding, dishes, and hygiene. Can you talk about how that they are complex? They seem like they're not complex, but they actually are complex.

B (2:59)

Yeah, well, so what I like to say is that Mo. And the reason you haven't heard it is because I. I made it up. I made up the term care tasks, and I did that because, you know, language can be really powerful, and there's a lot of baggage around terms like chores, housework, things like that. And I really wanted to sort of re. Emphasize that these tasks are not about performing. They're not being a good enough mother or wife or adult. They are not about maintaining perfection or validating anything. They are literally just about taking care of yourself. And in a world where self care has become sort of like bubble baths and pedicures and, like, an extra thing to do, I wanted to kind of refocus it to being less about doing more things for yourself and more about sort of like, rethinking what we already have to do for ourselves as acts of compassion. And if we shift that way of thinking about it, we can get really creative about making those things easier so that they're making our lives easier and not making our lives harder. But, yeah, so the first thing of course you hear is like, this is simple stuff. Why are you making such a big deal out of it? Why are you spending so much time talking about laundry, whatever? And the truth is that most people do care tasks on autopilot, right? Like, they think, oh, I need to wash the uniform for tomorrow, so let me throw it into the washer, and then I'll throw it into the dryer, and that'll be done. But the truth is, is that there are hundreds of decisions and competing decisions happening at that time. Right? It's like, well, first of all, you know, and this is where we talk about executive functioning, which is like these tasks that your frontal lobe does to kind of do these little multitasking things, which is like, number one, remember that you need to do it, which depending on how many other things you need to do, is a big deal. And then you have to get it into the washer. And if you already have something in the washer that needs to go to the dryer, but if you already have something in the dryer that needs to go into a laundry basket, and if there is no laundry basket in the laundry room, maybe you're just like, like, you kind of hit these, like, bottlenecks. And then I'm frustrated and I just walk away because, you know, how could I tolerate stress at this moment? What else is going on? And if I do go to get the laundry basket, you know, how many times am I going to get distracted on the way? Laundry basket, do I need to stop and get a band aid for a kid? And then I, okay, I've put the band aid on and now I have band aid trash. And so, you know, what I would find is as I'm sort of, I would call it, like, pinballing, like, through my house, and I would be going to do something that needed to be done, but I would come across something that needed to be done. And it was like at every second there was this, like, fork in the road. Because I knew, okay, either I can keep doing what I'm doing right now and forget about this thing here, or I could do this thing here and then probably forget about what I'm going to do now. And of course, when you have kids, it's like, it's just kind of constant needs that interrupt everything you're trying to get done, and interruption can spike your fight or flight. And so now we're like frazzled moms. And it's just. There's just a lot more that goes into it. And to suffice this very long winded answer, what I always say is that, you know, when we think about shaving seconds off of a process like laundry or making something like dishes easier to do, there's always people that will say, like, well, this is such a simple thing. You know, who cares about saving seconds? Who cares about making it a little bit easier to do this? Just do it. Don't be lazy. And the truth is, it's like somewhere right now there is a man in a suit being paid six figures to shave seconds off of Amazon's production time. And somehow that Is like a legitimate, you know, thing to do because seconds add up. And if we can get things more efficient and we can make more money, but bring that kind of thinking into the home, and all of a sudden it's, ugh, you know, just do it.

A (7:01)

Yeah. I thought that the, the wording is so helpful. Emi Q came up with it. Something new. Care tasks. And I thought, you know, I'm, I'm. I turned 45 this year, and I still, like, can't do a meal plan and I still can't keep my house clean. In fact, I tell this story, but we had this family over one time, and I'm like, I kind of thought my house was, like, kind of clean. When we have company, at least, you know, you pick up. And they said, we just love coming to your house so much. You and Josh are so authentic. You don't even care if your house is clean. I was like, oh, okay. Okay. So then, I mean, I thought about that so much. Casey. I've been like, what? I. I don't even know. I probably should ask her, like, what was it that you saw that? Because I'm like, I kind of thought it was clean, but clearly not. But, you know, I think it just, for me, you're kind of expected to be able to figure it out. And I've always felt like it's kind of hard, like I can't really get all the pieces together. And this is hard for me. And now I'm 45. You think by the time you're 45, like, look, I am halfway to 90, that I would have figured out some of these things. But you say if you break, actually break them down into the amount of time, energy, skill, planning, and maintenance that go into care tasks, they no longer seem simple. Cleaning is an ongoing task made up of hundreds of small skills that must be practiced every day at the right time and manner in order to keep going on the business of life. And you have to learn the intervals and you have to know, what are the cleaning products? And so even as that, like, it just gave me a little bit of. It gave me a lot of. Bit of peace because I was like, this is hard. This is hard for me because for some people, it's hard. And you talked about how, you know, because there's all these productivity books and there's all these, you know, there's going to be people that can help you with their laundry or the meal plan, and you're like, well, they're good at that, you know.

B (8:53)

Yeah, that's funny, right? Like, all those tip books are always written by people that are already good at it. It's like, here's how to organize by someone who is naturally good at organizing. And here's how to cook by someone who's naturally very good at cooking. I actually have a cookbook that's coming out next year. And when I told a friend of mine, she looked at me really funny. And then after a second, she went, but you hate to cook. And I went, exactly. Isn't that who you want the cookbook from? No extra flourishes?

A (9:21)

No.

B (9:21)

You know, and now we're going to slow roast for nine hours. No, you want something that is, you know, more matching to how your life is. And listen, it's. It is a great kindness to do to someone to have your house look lived in when they come over. Because, I mean, I've had that same reaction, too. And, I mean, I think about when I go and meet a new friend, especially since I became a mom, like, it seems so much harder to make friends now. And I have this. It's almost like a first date. I'm like, okay, are they going to like me? Are they going to judge me? Are they going to think that I'm, like, a little bit too much of a hot mess? Or are they going to think that I'm too uppity? Like, it's this whole thing, and I feel like the first person to, like, break the ice on realness. I feel so grateful to them, you know, the first person to. And I remember one time I had this new friend, and something came up and I needed someone to watch my kid, and I didn't have anyone to do it. And I reached out to her, and it was so vulnerable, like, to go from the playdate friend to, like, the kind of friend where you will ask them to, like, really inconvenience themselves to, like, do something for you. And I didn't want to do it, but I didn't have a choice. And afterwards, it wasn't like, 10 days later when she reached out to me and she was like, hey, I really need help with something. And she told me, like, I'm so glad you asked me for help, because it made me feel free to ask you. And I've wanted community like this, but it is so vulnerable to ask someone. So when we do it, we feel like we're the one taking, but we're really giving a lot in that moment.

A (11:02)

It's so good. There's this book that came out earlier this year called the Hospitality of Need by a man named Kevin Chandler, and he's been in a wheelchair since he was little. And he, and he talks about how his needs actually open up the doors for community. Because he needs, he has needs every hour or so and he has the best friends. Like, he has better friends than probably anybody listening has. He's got these really solid friendships. And, and I think that there's something to be said about that. And we're so afraid to ask. And yeah, it's, it's a way to getting. Become closer in community with other people. And I think this, there's like a flippancy to it, Casey. It, you know, it feels like. And you had, you brought up one of these ones. Okay. So there's this, you know, well, why don't you just clean as you go? And there's a flippancy to that statement. And, and then you're in, in your mind, you're like, well, why don't I do that? I probably, if I did that, you know, I would be better at that. So can you talk about why just clean as you go? It sounds, you say it sounds nice. Inefficient. But most people don't appreciate the. Of skills it takes to operate that way and the thousands of barriers that can interfere with execution.

B (12:05)

Yeah, so there's lots of barriers that can interfere in terms of executive dysfunction, someone that's struggling with mental health, someone that is, you know, maybe burnt out, lack of support. But I actually just posted a TikTok video. It was a repost from 2020 where I was addressing this. Why don't you just clean as you go? And because somebody had said there was something about a dish that got left out. And they were like, why don't you just put the dish in the dishwasher after you use it? Like, it's so simple. And my response to that was like, you're right, that is simple, but that is never the only thing that I have to do. And so I showed them, like, the dish, and I was like, this dish just got eaten out of by one of my kids. And at the time I had a baby and a toddler. I said, however, the toddler ate oatmeal and it's now all over her and she's crying because she doesn't want to be in the high chair. So I had to take her out of the high chair, take the, like, dirty, like, onesie off of her. So now I'm holding a baby and she's a baby. So she actually needs a bottle now. So I need to make a bottle. So I have to decide whether to make the bottle while the baby's crying or put the dish away. And so let's say, okay, I'll make the bottle first. Okay? Now I have an extra dish because I just made a bottle, and I go to the dishwasher, and the dishwasher is full of clean dishes, so I can't put it in there. I need to put it in the sink instead of the dishwasher because the dishwasher is clean. And I can't unload the dishwasher because, again, have a crying baby, right? And maybe I get the baby settled for that bottle, but at the same time, I have a toddler that just tripped and fell and needs a band aid, right? And so I go to give the band aid, and now, you know, I walk back over here and I say to them, what should I do now? Should I throw the band aid trash away? Should I hold the toddler? Should I keep, you know, giving the milk to the baby? Should I unload the dishwasher? Should I clean the floor? Because that oatmeal is also all over the floor and it's going to turn to concrete. Oh, by the way, we have a play date in 20 minutes, and if I don't leave the house in five, we will be late. And everyone still needs their diapers changed. I need to put clothes on this baby. And so, like, I feel like that was like the perfect representation, especially like, in mom life of, you know, maybe it is simple, but when you have to do a thousand simple things at once.

A (14:22)

Yeah.

B (14:22)

Your simple is the farthest from your reality.

A (14:26)

That made me so. I'm, like, super emotional because I think it helps people feel seen. Like, you're in those years and they're so hard, and you're like, why can't I just do it? Like, why? You know, and there's There is just such this flippancy doorbell. Just put the thing away after use it. You know, do the one minute or less things or whatever. But I'm like, no things are one minute or less or if you're not good at it. And so I. You know, the books were so powerful for me. I'm like, over here crying about it because I think back to those years and I just, you know, sometimes you're like, oh, I wish I could have done a better job. Or I'm actually literally crying. Or like. Or sometimes I feel like now we've got teenagers and I. And I. In some point, I'm like, I wish that I could have had a better system Like, I have no system. I've bought all the things for systems, Casey.

B (15:09)

Oh, yeah, me too.

A (15:10)

You know, they're like, check it off. And it's a. It's a sticky pad. And like, this is what you do on Tuesdays and this is. And I'm like, you know, I just have never been able to do it, so I'm not passing that on to my kids. And yet, though, maybe I'm passing on in okayness with it being how it is.

B (15:26)

Yeah. And I mean, I will even go and be like, I've got. I'm going to get it together and buy like an organizational system and I'll be really excited about it and I'll get it and my husband will walk in and be like, you have something exactly like that? Oh, yeah, I do. I bought it six months ago and didn't use it. Right. Or used it for two weeks and then didn't. Yeah. And I think the other thing that happens with us as moms is that there's kind of this picture. I mean, well, a couple things. One is like, women's labor has historically been invisible.

A (15:54)

Yeah.

B (15:55)

So, like, I just described to you literally a five minute period of a thousand things to do and rushing around like a chicken with my head cut off. And yet at the end of the day, right, when my husband comes home, it will look like nothing has been done because I can't do. No matter how much I do, there'll always be more to do. Right. And so it always kind of looks undone. And luckily I'm married to, like, an extremely gracious man who has never come home and been like, what have you done all day? But I understand why you could come home and think that. And so it's difficult because we're used to, if we've had careers before, we're used to producing work and having something to show for it and having it all be buttoned up and look nice and then be able to come home and rest or whatever. And now we're in this corner of the, like, never ending vortex of care tasks that are boring. A. And so, like, even if you were to like, never sit down and maybe get it all done, like, your brain would just, like, rot, I think.

A (16:52)

Yeah. Yeah. There's so much here when it comes to holiday gifting. I want to give things people genuinely love. Beautiful, timeless pieces they'll wear for years. And that's why I'm going with Quint. From Mongolian cashmere sweaters to Italian wool coats, everything is premium quality and at a price that actually makes sense. Quince truly has something for everyone. Their soft Mongolian cashmere sweaters start at just $50 and they look and feel like the designer pieces you see for $200 or more. They've got gorgeous silk tops and skirts for dressing up, perfectly cut denim for everyday life, and outerwear that actually keeps you warm without feeling bulky, and their Italian wool coats. Oh my goodness, these are standout pieces. Beautifully tailored, soft to the touch and made to last for season after season. What I love most is that Quince works only with ethical, trusted factories and uses truly premium materials. Their prices stay far below what you'd pay at other luxury brands. Personally, I've been reaching for my Quince cashmere non stop as the holidays get closer. The cashmere feels incredible, soft, structured and it doesn't pill. It is the kind of quality I normally expect from a 200 sweater, not $50. Fine gifts so good you'll want to keep them with quince. Go to quince.com outside for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com quince sl outside to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com outside does anyone else feel like the holidays just showed up overnight? One minute we're picking pumpkins and the next I'm looking around my house thinking wait, do we have enough guest towels? Where's the wreath from last year and who am I still missing gifts for if you are in that same last minute scramble? Wayfair has been such a lifesaver for us during this season. The holidays are here and you get what you need fast with Wayfair. From bedding and linens to decor for every room in the house, it truly your one stop shop. We've been adding some final holiday touches to our home and I recently ordered a couple things from Wayfair. A beautiful neutral throw blanket for the living room and the sweetest little lamp for the kids reading nook. Everything came with fast free hassle free delivery and it all looked even better in person than online. It is amazing how one new piece can make your home feel warm, refreshed and ready for hosting. And if you're in the gifting mode, Wayfair really is the perfect place to shop for anyone on your list. Their selection is huge. Every style, every budget and I keep finding things I didn't even realize they carried like kitchen essentials, storage solutions and seasonal decor to get everyone in the holiday spirit. Now is the time to get your home ready so you can actually enjoy the holidays with your family instead of running around trying to catch up. Wayfair truly has everything your home needs this season. Get last minute hosting, essentials, gifts for your loved ones and decor to celebrate the holidays. For way less. Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I R.com Wayfair Every style, every home. What I One of the things I really love about both books. So the books are called how to keep house while drowning. Super cool. You originally had self published this. I was so impressed by that. Self published. You know, your mom's pushing you on, your husband's helping you and now you can. I mean obviously now it's published through Simon and Schuster. It's like, it's just, it's this little book, you can put it right in your purse. There's philosophy. The other one's called who deserves your love. It's philosophy, but it's also there are very practical things like this five step method to tidying up. There's. I'm like wiping my nose with my hand. All right. There. One of the ideas, it's in my notes somewhere. But I'm like, it was like, well, have it. People have the dish rack. They have a dish like a drying rack, I guess you would call it, right. This is how bad I am at cleaning. You have a drying rack that people would use on the outside of their sink, like by their sink. And you were like use it for your dirty stuff. So there's so many practical ideas too. I'm like, I never would have thought that you could put the oatmeal plate in there. That way when you have time to get to it later, it's not, you know, it's not in a sink filled with 30 other things.

B (20:40)

Yeah.

A (20:41)

So there's practical. The book is filled with practical ideas too. And we're going to talk about some of those. But I wanted to touch on this. I've definitely talked to you about your book to so many people and I'm sure everyone who's read your book has a similar story. One of the things that you touched on that I've not heard people talk about when is division of labor and the way that you come, you approach it I think is so refreshing and so helpful. So obviously there are these often moms, but it could be dads that are home with kids and doing these thousands of unseen care tasks that are competing with each other and you feel frazzled and you're. You're kind of constantly overwhelmed. That was my story until we went outside. That actually helped a lot, because when you go outside, you reduce your amount of care tasks by an infinite amount, and you only can really be present with what's there.

B (21:30)

Yeah. Because there's not a laundry basket there for you to be like, oh, I should be doing that.

A (21:34)

Yeah, yeah.

B (21:35)

Oh, I love that. And you, I bet when you get home, there, this is what it is for me. When I get home from going out to do something with my kids, it's easier for me to give myself permission to be like, okay, now go away. I'm gonna do the laundry.

A (21:47)

Sure, sure.

B (21:48)

Like, I just put in 100% attentiveness with you and our relationship for, you know, an hour and a half or two hours or wherever we are. And now, like, I know it's okay for me to say, now go do some independent play. I'm going to do the laundry real quick. It makes that easier.

A (22:04)

Yes. And often, you know, it helps with their independent play because they've done a lot of it when you've been out and about. So there is this big discussion around division of labor in marriages and in, you know, in our relationships. So you say that it's not about working harder. You say, when I see couples begin to argue, and. And I think that is what you said. Well, I'm. I'm working. I had, you know, every single second of the day, I had 16 things I could do. And you were at work and you had one goal or, you know, whatever, it starts to become this tip thing. Yes. A competition. And you say it's not about that. You say it's about rest. So can you talk about this? This is a mighty shift.

B (22:48)

Yeah. So, yeah, instead of trying to make the work equal, we want to make the rest fair. Because first of all, making the work equal is an impossible task because unless you and your partner have the exact same job at the exact same place, like, how are you going to compare? You know, I. I was in the mine all day. Okay, well, I was in a kindergarten class. Or. Well, I went and, you know, I. I went and wrote a manuscript for ten hours. Okay, well, I spent seven hours doing therapy and listening to trauma. Like, so it's kind of, you know, it's like, okay, well, the physicality of it, the emotional drain. How long did you have to drive? And how many hours a week do you have to work? And on top of that, you know. Okay, but you have A job that you can clock out and never think about it again. I have a job where I'm on call all the time or that I have to always be plugged into email. And so once you start that game of, like, who's working harder? Because what you're trying to do, first of all, you're prioritizing that the paid work is the most important because we're starting with that and going, let's measure it. And then whoever doesn't have as much, that's. Then we'll fill in the gaps with all the unpaid work we have to do to make it equal. Right? And it already puts us like, on the back foot. It already puts us in competition. And what I. And it doesn't actually work for, like, real couples. And I realized this when, you know, I was. I was reading it was Eve Rodsky's book Fair Play, which I think is a really helpful book about this topic. And, you know, one concept that I think is really helpful, especially if you're dealing with a stay at home parent, is, you know, stay at home parenting is a 24 hour job. You know, it kind of never ends. And so if you have someone that's working nine to five and they're clocking out and they get to come home and then they think, well, because I've been working all day and I make the paycheck, I get to put my feet up. And you're going, okay, well, I have to, you know, I've been going round and round and round and round. When I paint that picture, it makes sense that, like, that guy should get off his butt, right? And it makes sense that he should come home and help someone, whatever. But that is like such a clean, sanitized, easy example. Because first of all, that kind of only applies to when kids are in that, like, the trenches stage. So fast forward. And so here's where I found me. And my husband is like, okay, but now my kids are going to school. So there's these big air, like in the middle of the day where I don't necessarily have to rush around like a chicken with my head cut off. And so I have what I. Because one of the biggest things is like time autonomy when you're in those little years, which is like, okay, maybe you had, quote unquote, more on your plate than me, but you have time autonomy. You get to go, I'm gonna run to the store and just walk out because you know that I'm gonna watch the kids. Or you get to go to work and then decide yes, you have some urgent things, but you also get to pace yourself and decide what you're gonna do that day. I don't. I'm in reaction mode all day long because I have these kids and they have reaction, they have needs that need reacting to. So. But then it's like, okay, now my kids are at school, so I have some more time autonomy for large parts of the day. Also, my husband doesn't work a 9 to 5 job. My husband is a corporate attorney who works very long hours. He always has to be like, available by email. He works six days a week. And so all of a sudden we're going, okay. It's not as simple as, you know, when you get home from work, you ought to be like, jumping in and just doing, doing, doing. Especially when I go, well, I, after I dropped the kids off at 8 o', clock, like, I had hours of time autonomy, hours of. And then some weeks, you know, I'm writing books and I am from 8am to 3, just working, working, working, working. And then the kids come home and then I'm second shift with those kids, right? And then my husband comes home and I need him to jump in and do, do, do, do, right? But then like, sometimes I'm in between projects and I got to read a book for second seven hours today, right? Or I got to have some leisure time. And I started to realize, like, you know, my husband also deserves leisure time, right? And so you could look in at 6 o' clock and see that I'm the one, you know, corralling the kids and getting them ready and doing this. And then you kind of see him like in his office playing on a hobby and go, I can't believe it. But what you don't know is that that was a day that I had hours while the kids were at work and I worked maybe on a fun project and then I read a book and then I threw a load of laundry in and like, it was a light day. And so, like, I recognize that, like, he needs also that those breaks and like, he only can take them at certain times and he also is going to put the kids to bed. Like, there's, it's just, it's so much easier to go, okay, what phase of life are we in? How much rest is available? And are we working to make sure that whatever rest is available, we're sort of like making it fair. Rest not only on downtime, but on time autonomy. And then as our lives change, as we get new jobs or we quit old jobs or kids go to School or we move. And now there's more of a commute. We're constantly reassessing not who's working harder, but how much rest is available to both of us. And are we being fair about everyone getting that rest?

A (28:28)

This is remarkable.

B (28:30)

And by the way, rest is not just sleep or relaxing. Rest is also recreation.

A (28:37)

Yes, you say, and rest is also.

B (28:39)

Yes, recharging, recreation, fun, friends, socializing, and time autonomy. Right. And so that's big.

A (28:49)

That's a phrase I had never heard either. So care tasks. I never heard time autonomy. And it's such an interesting one. You know, there are periods of time where you do feel almost imprisoned because you have no say so because you're in reaction mode to children. So you say everyone deserves a week of their. A window of their week where they have time autonomy. And you say it's not doing care tasks alone. Yeah, that's big. Right? Because we'd be like, well, I got to go to the grocery store by myself. Like, it's not that I got to.

B (29:22)

And like, that can feel good. That's great. You deserve that too. But that's not what we're talking about with time autonomy.

A (29:28)

Yeah, yeah. These are all really important things. They will really help your marriage. And they'll, you know, they'll just, they, for me, they were just really eye opening. And I. And you know, you work with so many people, so I feel like you have just this brilliance of what works and what doesn't work and what makes sense and what doesn't make sense. It does not make sense to compare who's working harder or, you know, you're like, these are fundamentally different things that people are doing. So you say the chores never end. Which. This was actually an aha moment for me. I remember as a kid, it was like, well, on Saturdays, we. My mom called it the one hour blitz. Okay. You know, and like the Saturday, everyone would work for an hour and then we get quite a bit done and then we'd go on with the day. So then you hit adulthood. I hit adulthood. And I was like, the one hour blitz no longer works.

B (30:14)

It's not cutting it.

A (30:16)

You say when we, when we're kids, you have a chores chart or whatever. So it seems like chores are finite. But when you become an adult, the list of care tasks is not finite. It's a never ending list of tasks that repeat themselves every single day. So these are just really eye opening things for me. Just be like, why does this feel so hard? And. And this explains why. And then you give a Lot of practical tips on. On how to deal with it. So aiming for fair rest. Fair rest covers a multitude of division of labor sins. So all of that, I think will be so helpful. You can find more and how to keep hospital drowning as well as who deserves your love. Can you talk about task initiation? So this is something that, you know, no matter what stage of life you're in, maybe you're enjoying reading your book, but you have other things that I like. I mean, I like to do puzzles, but I never even considered that at some point I would be able to do puzzles. Like, now I can. So part of. Part of my struggle is you go years without having much of that time, autonomy, or really doing anything that you enjoy. So now I struggle with, like, if I start to read the book, I'm like, I don't really want to put this down and go do anything else. So task initiation is one of the things, and you could be in that spot for a lot of different things. You could feel depressed, you could be overwhelmed. You could have too many things on your plate, and you can't quite figure out what the next thing is to do. And you talk about moving toward a task, and I just thought that was so compassionate and wonderful. Can you talk about how we can create momentum?

B (31:40)

Yeah. So let's say you're reading that book and it's really good, and you're like, oh, but I got to do the laundry or I got to do the dishes or whatever. Like, instead of being like, I have to put the book down and go do this, it's like, okay, well, what if, like, instead of laying in my bed reading this book, I sat on the edge of my bed while I was reading, Right?

A (31:56)

Yeah.

B (31:57)

And then I maybe went to the kitchen and sat on a bar stool while I was reading. And then maybe I transitioned to turning on some music and standing at the sink and maybe, like, looking at my phone for a little bit. And then it's like, okay, now maybe I just do a dish, or maybe I do it for five minutes, and it's kind of like, incrementally making these, like, on ramps easier to do and not as intimidating. And I do think it's funny you bring up puzzles, because I used to love puzzles, too, and it was like, years before I could do another puzzle. And it's not even just the time. I think it's a perfect example, because really what it was was that when you have little kids, it's hard to teach them not to grab the puzzle pieces. Like, you can't Leave out a puzzle.

A (32:41)

Right.

B (32:42)

And which, like, that's such a not like problem, but like that's something that, like if you don't have kids, you never would think about.

A (32:50)

Right.

B (32:51)

Because it's. We always think it's just like a time thing when it's like. No, like there's a lot of like other random nuances about having kids that like shifts your life. But anyways, I just thought about that.

A (33:00)

It's a good point. But let me tell you this thing. For my birthday, for my 45th birthday, my sister in law, I didn't even know this existed. My sister in law bought me this.

B (33:08)

This.

A (33:08)

I don't even know what to call it. You roll it out like, like a man.

B (33:13)

Like a puzzle mat.

A (33:14)

Yes. And you can roll it back up and then it's got a little handle. So. So you can take it, you can take it with you. And so she told me that they like sometimes for their birthdays or maybe Mother's Day or something, they'll go, they'll take a night out at a hotel by themselves. Which I'm like, that's actually a really cool idea. So she said recently, she said she took her puzzle bag mat thing and she went to a hotel. It's just by herself. And she said she rolled it out and she watched Harry Potter movies and did her puzzle. I was like, that's a pinnacle of life. They're doing a good job over there. So I was like, oh, there's kind of a solution that I did. I mean, I learned about everything too late. That's the problem. But okay, we're talking about momentum. And I think these are really fantastic ideas for task initiation. And if you're feeling like you're having a hard time, you've got great ideas in here. You say moving from sitting down to, to up and dancing is a big transition. So if you can, you know, you can kind of get yourself there, then you're going to move toward the task and that's really going to help you. You had a. I mean, I've started to use this. It was this five steps of tidying up.

B (34:20)

Is that what it's.

A (34:20)

I'm trying to find it. I have so many.

B (34:21)

Yeah. The five thing. The five Things tidying method.

A (34:24)

The five Things tidying method. So once again there is the philosophy like that care tasks are morally neutral. Like stop trying to think you're, you know, like thinking I'm an awful person because I can't keep up with my stuff. You're like, they're morally neutral. And it's okay if you have, you know, a closed chair. And these are all the things that I relate with. You say, we have a hard time shaking the constant guilt about how things should look. So there's that piece, the philosophy behind it. But then you have all these practicalities. So I thought, this is so good for families. Gentle skill building the five things tidying method. It's very empowering, and you feel good even if you only do the first one.

B (35:03)

Also, can I tell you my newest hack that I just realized last week? And I was like, why have I not thought of this? So I've for. For a long time talked about having a laundry basket in every room of the house. Because when you have kids, they seem to strip as they walk. Right. And so being able to just toss something in a hamper with a couple of steps is better than being like, I gotta walk all the way to laundry room. But I recently realized that having a laundry basket for dirty clothes and a laundry basket for clothes that are still clean, because the amount of times that my kids will take off a clean sweater and leave it somewhere and I'll pick it up and I'll be like, oh, I don't want to throw it in the laundry basket. It's not really dirty. That's just more labor for later when it's actually clean and they can reuse it. But then I don't want to walk all the way to the closet because I was right in the. Again, I was, yes, that's simple. But I was right in the middle of three other things, and I'm like, I need a place to throw clothes that are still clean enough to wear so that when I get to my, like, big Sunday kind of reset blitz, I can take that basket and go to the closet when it's a large enough task to kind of, like, focus on and put it all away. But it's just. It's little things like that where you really have to kind of get rid of the rules about how things are supposed to be done.

A (36:20)

Yes.

B (36:21)

And instead think about, like, what's going to make things run more smoothly for me. Because as moms like, again, shaving seconds off here and there, not only of physically walking through the house, but also just that mental energy that you spend in that moment.

A (36:36)

Yeah. Yes. I mean, the practical ideas are so good. So let's just talk about the first step of tidying up. It's basically just dealing with the trash.

B (36:45)

Yes. And I love this. It works really well.

A (36:48)

Although it looks like a lot, there are Actually, only five things in any room.

B (36:53)

Yeah.

A (36:53)

It's so empowering. Okay. Sorry. I interrupted.

B (36:56)

No, it's okay. I was gonna say this. It helps my brain because what. I. I have this, like, paralysis. This, like, frozenness.

A (37:04)

Yeah.

B (37:05)

When I look at a table and there's, like, all different kinds of things on the table, and I'm like, I need to clean this. But my brain, it almost like, I think of it as, like. Like a. Like, I'm looking through, like, a tactical. Like, you know, in fighter jets, when they have, like, the little laser beam that, like, is trying to lock on to a moving target.

A (37:27)

Yeah.

B (37:28)

It's, like, doing that. It's, like, scanning every item, and I'm like. And it's like, they. All these items. Half of them go in all these different places, but then there's, like, half of the items are, like, random, and I'm not immediately sure, like, where do I put this remote to the TV that I don't even know which TV this is, and it's sitting here on my desk where there is no TV around. And so it's, like, the amount of, like, mental energy and thought I have to put into, like, what do I do with this when all I want to do is get this done and move on? And it's like, I. I, like, freeze up. Yeah. And so I need to give my brain categories to where instead of my brain doing that, like. Like, trying so hard to lock on. On something and not being able to lock in on anything, I'm like, okay, just look for the trash, because trash is easily identifiable. And just throw the trash away and then move on. And then throw the trash away and then move on. And then once you have all the trash out of, like, that room you're doing, then you can move on to the next category.

A (38:27)

It's so good.

B (38:27)

Which is laundry.

A (38:29)

It's. It's so good, Kasey, because. Yeah. And you do such an amazing job. Like, you. You're big on social media. You're talking about your TikToks, and I'm more on Instagram, but I've seen your things there, and it. The visual part of being. It's like, you see the visually overwhelming space, and, like. And I'm. I. I relate. I remember. You know, it's like, you got a kid's toy room. I'm like, this thing is destroyed all the time, and I. You know, I don't even really know where to begin. And so if you can know that there's really only these five things that you're going to have to figure out and kind of walk your way through them. And also then you talked about how there's a sense of accomplishment. So even if you only get to the trash and you don't get to the second thing, you do have a sense of accomplishment, and it looks a little bit better, at least, you know. So, I mean, this is just. It's so compassionate. It's so helpful. It's so empowering, and it's great for kids.

B (39:20)

Like, how many of us were kind of, like, shoved into our bedroom and told, like, clean this up. And then we're like. Like, we forget that that's a skill you have to teach someone. And so, like, a lot of the times we'll get into these power struggles with our kids where we're saying, go clean it, clean it, clean it, clean it. And they don't. They either, like, puttering around or they start playing or they're complaining. And what I realized is that a lot of the times we think our kids are unwilling, but really they just don't know how. And this was, like, a big epiphany. One time, I was. My kids were little, little, little, and they were, like, toddlers, and they had taken the diapers out of the box and just, like, scattered them all over the room. And I was frustrated, and I was like, hey, you need to pick all of these diapers up. And she kind of whined about it, And I went to do something real quick, and I came back, and she hadn't done any of it. And I was like, hey, you need to pick all the diapers up. And she was like, I can't. I was like, yes, you can. She was like, no, I can't. And we did that whole like, oh, yes, you can. No, I can't. And then she was like, there's too many. And I was like, no, there's not. Pick them up. And so I stood there, and she picked one up and put it in her hand, and then she picked a second one up, and then a third one up, and then a fourth one up. And then she couldn't fit any more in her hands. And she looked back at me with, like, all the innocence in the world, and I went and went, see, I can't pick them all up. And I realized the concrete thinking of her brain when I was saying, you need to pick all of these up, she literally interpreted that as, I need to pick them all, all. All of them up at the same time. And then put them in the. And it's like, oh, that should be obvious. Well, you know what? It's not obvious to a three year old or a four year old or frankly, sometimes even a six or seven year old. Like, I've literally had to tell my kids it's okay to take more than one trip. Yeah, it's okay to pick. No, you pick one up and then put it in the box and then get the other one and put it in the box then.

A (41:23)

And.

B (41:24)

And this creates, of course, more labor for us because we have to sit there and do it with them. But I realized, like, I really need to teach my kids in that much specificity how to clean up things, how to tidy things. And so when we. And my kids can now do it independently, but with me coming in and being like, all right, pick up all the trash. And they'll start picking up all the trash and I'll, you know, maybe go do some dishes and then I'll come back and I'll be like, all right, now do the laundry. And I can do this in their playrooms. Pick up all the stuff. Eat stuffies first now pick up all the cars. Like, it really helps all brains to break it down like that.

A (41:57)

Yeah, yeah. And then you feel like you're accomplishing something and even if you just do one of the things, then you've, you've made some inroads there. Yeah. And it's playful. You have a lot of playful ideas too. So people are looking for practical things. You're like, right, you know, racing the timer, racing to see how fast you can go, do things with a friend, if you can reward yourself. You talk about your closing, you know, your closing duties, and you say, you know, you play silly games with yourself. I narrate in my head like I'm a world renowned cleaning expert and everyone is watching me on television. So these are just fantastic ideas. Try and make it fun if you can. And then not only do you talk, and there's so much more. I mean, we, we have not, you know, we've scratched the surface and it's a smaller ish book. So, I mean, you'll get your bang for your buck for this Bang. Is that how people say it? Out of this one, it's like I, I came away with so many ideas and so much compassion for myself and so much of understanding of, you know, why I'm in the spot that I am in and why I feel the way about it that I do. You talk even about diet and exercise in there and you say anything that creates momentum is a win, you know, And I think A lot of us fall into the trap of only exercising for aesthetic benefits. So that's, that's in there a lot of just amazing, life changing, life changing, life changing concepts that approach potential will be completely new to you. Well, first of all, because you made them up so they are new. And also I'm like, I've not been exposed to time, autonomy and, and all of that. It just helps it make sense. And then I hope I can pass some of these things on to my kids. Right. Because there is a lot here, revolving chores and keeping house and keeping up with your body and all of these different things. But not only do you have this book, but then you also have a book about relationships. So this is called who deserves your love? How to create boundaries to start, strengthen or end any relationship. You say this. In a good relationship, the good times are really good and the bad times are safe. Even in good relationships, people hurt each other from time to time. One of the things that you're addressing in this book is like, and I think this is a question that we have a lot. It's like, is this too bad? How bad is it really? And a lot of times things are personal, so you can't really talk to anybody about it. And you've worked with all these families and couples and adults and can you talk about this sort of, not the nuance of it, but the kind of overarching thing because people can find it in the book is like the relationship decision tree.

B (44:20)

Yeah. So basically like when I'm talking to a friend or a client individual and I have all the details, it's not hard to like help someone as a therapist, like walk through like them figuring out like, what, what are their values? What are the nuances of this relationship? What do they want to do? Like, what's going to feel, feel like the right decision them? Not that it's quick, but the process can be pretty straightforward. Maybe finding the answers isn't, but kind of the questions and where we're going. But when you move to making like generalized advice about relationships, it's really difficult because relationships are so nuanced. And so I wanted to kind of give a way for people to walk through the questions that I would be asking them if they were my client, to help them kind of narrow down how to pick the right advice for themselves. And I mean kind of like a little example of this. It's like we might say, you know, relationships aren't perfect. You know, everyone makes mistakes and it takes two people to create conflict. So we all need to look at our own selves. But then you'll have someone that goes, yeah, okay, I'm going to try and take that advice because, you know, my husband's been throwing dishes at my head, but I haven't really looked at how maybe I'm contributing to this conflict. And you're like, whoa, whoa, okay, back up, back up, back up. It's like, it's never okay to be violent. Like, you deserve safety. Like, you know, and maybe people will jump right to, like, and you should leave them. That's horrible. Like, that's an evil person that's going to throw things at you. And then you have someone that goes, oh, no, I've thrown something at somebody, and maybe I'm evil and awful and don't deserve a relationship. And then maybe you have someone who is really awful who has tormented and harassed their partner to the point that their. That their partner has now thrown something at them because they've been crazy for so long. And then they're going, see, the person that throws something is the worst one, and blah, blah, blah. And I don't have a part in this because you threw something at me. And then you're going to. Whoa, okay, well, hang on, hang on, hang on. Right. So you can see that if I had an individual person in front of me and all the details, I could help someone figure out how to think about what's happening. But even with something like throwing a dish at someone, it is really difficult to say in all cases where this behavior is happening. Here's what the behavior means, here's what you should do, here's what you shouldn't do. And so it's a way of sort of walking through, like, okay, what's going on with this person? You know, are they willing to make changes? Are they able to make changes? Are there mitigating factors in mental health or disability? You know, what kind of relationship is this? Is this romantic? Is this familial? Is this a friend? How long have I been in this relationship? What's the level of harm in this relationship? What are the commitments I've made to this person? And when does the level of harm usurp the commitments? Or when should I really try and stick it out with this person? And what would it mean if I left? And does that line up with my values? And so it's a way of letting people kind of choose your own adventure by going through all those questions.

A (47:32)

It's remarkably helpful. So many of these things in your books, I've never been exposed to, and they're so practical and they're so like for your daily life. So isn't it interesting, Casey? Like, you can go up, you know, halfway, more than halfway through your life and be like, I have been missing these really key components that really help with, with the day to day you say this. I mean that this was precious. Like, no one talks about this. I believe it's reasonable to expect that the people you are in a relationship with, like you. I was continually surprised by the number of couples who don't seem to like each other. So you talk about. Here's another thing I've never heard of bids. Can you talk about that?

B (48:10)

Yeah. So bids is a concept by John Gottman, who's a really famous marriage and family therapist. And, and he and his wife run the Gottman Institute. And they have this concept of bids where it's like these little moments where you are soliciting connection with someone and they. I kind of think of it as like, think about a really big, romantic, grand gesture bid, which is like asking someone to homecoming or, you know, cooking someone a five course meal when they, you know, and then they come home. That would be like a big bid. And the way somebody responds to that would obviously impact you. Right. If they go, I'd love to go to homecoming, they kind of accept that bid. Or if they went, ugh, no, I don't want to go to homecoming. Or if they went, oh my God, you made dinner. Or they went, I'm not hungry. But even if they came home and said like, oh, no, I just ate and I could like, I'm so full, but oh my God, this was so nice of you.

A (49:10)

Right?

B (49:10)

So it's not about saying yes as much as it is, like, how you respond to that person's bid. But those big bids are not what hold relationships together. What hold relationships together are the tiny bids on moment to moment. And so John Gottman's kind of famous example is like two people sitting on the porch and one of them going, look at that bird over there. Isn't that a pretty bird? And recognizing that, like, it's really not about the bird. And he would look at how does the other partner respond to that? Do they turn towards the bid and either, like, look up and go, oh, yeah, cool bird. Do they turn away from the bid and go, ugh, I don't care about birds? Or are they just a little dismissive of the bird? They go, they go, that's nice, honey. You know, while still looking down at their phone.

A (49:57)

Yeah.

B (49:58)

And so that's what a bid Is. And so there's these kind of hundreds of times a day that we shoot out these bids. And it's important that we pay attention to our partner's bids. And again, it's not about always agreeing or always being excited about birds, but it's kind of like treating those bids with tenderness. And that's kind of what holds a relationship together. That's really what builds trust more than the big things.

A (50:21)

Okay. And isn't yours really about birds? Like, for you personally? Yes.

B (50:25)

So what was funny about that example is that, like, I actually do really like birds. And so when we moved into my house, I would bird watch all the time and I would always tell my husband about it. My husband does not care about birds. Birds. But I use this example in the books. It's a perfect example of, like, I'm not saying you have to care about birds because your partner does.

A (50:45)

Yeah.

B (50:46)

But the way that my husband would respond to my bids was that he would. He would kind of like be really light hearted about it. And he'd be like, wow, you are really into birds these days, huh? But it was like he would treat it almost like it was endearing, even though he had no interest in the birds.

A (51:05)

Yes.

B (51:06)

And it became kind of a running joke. And I would tell him about the birds and he'd be like, oh, wow, cool. And I'd be like, you don't care about this. He's like, I really don't. I love that you love the birds, but I do. I cannot find it in me to care about these birds. But it remained kind of like a light hearted, affectionate way of interacting.

A (51:25)

Yeah.

B (51:26)

And so that's kind of the example I use of, like, you know, turning into each other's bids.

A (51:32)

Yeah. Isn't that interesting that that was John Gottman's example. It's yours too. Like, you'll be like. He'd be like, how was your day? You'd be like, I have so many exciting bird things to tell you.

B (51:40)

He'd be like. And he would literally go, oh, goody. But in a. But not in a, like, condescending way.

A (51:48)

Yeah.

B (51:48)

In a, like, funny. Like, I'm gonna sit and listen to these birds because I love you, but.

A (51:52)

Oh, good.

B (51:52)

That's my favorite thing.

A (51:55)

Well, you use this phrase, delighting in another person's delight.

B (51:59)

Yeah. I think it should be a really big red flag if somebody. On your delight. Yeah. Like, even if they're not into what you're into, Even if they think it's corny, Even if they, you know, it's not their deal. And I'm not saying they have to make a big to do about it, but like it is absolutely normal, like low bar standard behavior to expect that somebody else enjoys your excitement about the things you care about.

A (52:27)

Yeah. The backbone of a connected relationship is the small moment, acts of connection where one person acknowledges the other as a way of signaling. I see you and I like what I see. I mean there's so much in here. You talk about people pleasing. You say, there's this look around, ain't nobody, please.

B (52:45)

Yeah.

A (52:46)

And you, this was a big sentence you say when we take responsibility for other people and we're, we're doing this. People pleasing. And you even talk about as parents, you know, that it could lead to someone else who under functions. All these phrases, they're unique. I'm always impressed, Casey, when you know you, how many books are in the world? 17 billion. I don't know. And you're like, how can someone come up with these new, like phrasing it in a new way that leads to greater understanding and not only greater understanding, but like a way toward action. Like, I don't, I don't want my kids to under function.

B (53:20)

Yup.

A (53:20)

You know, my. Am I doing too much so that they're going to be under functioning? You talk about increasing your window of tolerance. So you have all of these ways to emotionally regulate. Super important, obviously in this day and age because of screens and the amount of pressure that we're under. So you have all these different ways to emotionally regulate. One of them is go outside. Hot and cold weather are really going to help. But you say, you know, when we do these things, it helps to return us to our window of tolerance. I was like, I want to be in my window of tolerance. So the wording of it is just so helpful. You share your own story in these books about all the things that you've overcome. And you say one of the hardest boundary lessons is that great. A great many things that are not your fault are now your responsibility. And you say this is our opportunity to break some general generational curses instead of kicking the can down the road a little farther each time. So you know, we're the adult and, and there are changes that you can make and you make it simple. Just it's simple steps to start to do those. And you make it enticing and you, you know, you make it understanding that the person understands it. I don't, that didn't make sense. But like I understand better, you know, why I'm struggling with this. And the person has a little bit more compassion for. For where they're at. And then you talk even about house cleaning. I've never thought about this. Like, I've always been like, oh, you know, I'm like, the kids are so expensive. And you say, but if you can afford a housekeeper, even once a month, maybe do it. I'm like, we pay for our. I never considered it this way. You pay to get your oil change in your car.

B (54:51)

Yeah. Nobody. Nobody feels like, oh, I should be doing this for myself. Oh, I'm such a failure because I didn't change my own oil. Or, like, it's like, well, I mean, they're all just tasks. They're all just care tasks. Like, you ha. Like, you are allowed to choose what care tasks you want to outsource according to your budget and your preferences. Yeah.

A (55:11)

Yeah. So you get a lot of freedom, a lot of permission in these books, and just a lot of reframes as they really helped me. So from the bottom of my heart, thank you. Thank you for coming to talk about them. I. I cannot recommend them more highly. Both. You know, one is going to center around your relationships, and one is going to center around keeping house. And. And what is your philosophy on it? And what might your approach be? And. And more than that, really, Casey, what do I want to pass down to my kids?

B (55:37)

Kids?

A (55:38)

Because probably before I read your books, I would be passing down big feelings of, like, failure. And after reading your book, I look at it differently. So I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful for the books. I'm grateful for the visuals that you show on social media. I'll put all the links. And I'm. Thank you. I'm really thankful that you came to talk to us about it, and I know that so many people will find it really helpful. We always end our show with the same question. The question is, what's a favorite memory from your childhood? That was out outside.

B (56:06)

That was outside. Oh, yeah. So my mom, when we. When she and my dad first divorced, we moved into this little duplex, and it was tiny inside, but it had this little courtyard. And again, the courtyard was small, too. And, you know, I went from a bigger house with a big backyard at my dad's, and I would go visit my mom, and there's this, like, tiny little courtyard, but my mom built this fort for me underneath. There was an upstairs neighbor. Like, the duplex was split, like, upstairs, downstairs. So the staircase on the side that went up to the upstairs, she, like, went to Lowe's, bought some plywood and made a fort underneath the stairs. And I remember, like, decorating it with chalk and, like, I loved it. And. And my grandmother that I'm named after, she had a courtyard, too. And I remember thinking that her courtyard was, like, the most magical thing in the world. So now I have, like, a thing for courtyards, which it's so funny because, like, we're always, I think, as parents, thinking about, like, what we can't give our kids. Like, oh, I wish I had a big space, a big yard, a big this, a big that. And yet, like, the most magical outside moments to me growing up were in these tiny little courtyards that I felt like. I felt like I was in the secret garden.

A (57:21)

Yeah.

B (57:21)

Like, playing in my little fort and walking through, like, the flowers that would, like, kind of cascade down from the tops of the fences. So that's my favorite memory from outside.

A (57:32)

Oh, and what a beautiful message for the parents. Casey, thank you so much for being here.

B (57:37)

Thank you. So you want to start a business. You might think you need a team of people and fancy tech skills, but you don't. You just need GoDaddy arrow. I'm Walton Goggins, and as an actor, I'm an expert in looking like I know what I'm doing. GoDaddy Arrow uses AI to create everything you need to grow a business. It'll make you a unique logo, it'll create a custom website, it'll write social posts for you, and even set you up with a social media calendar. Get started@godaddy.com arrow. That's godaddy.com airo.