1KHO 653: Gain Deeper Relationships Through Dependence on Others | Kevan Chandler and Tommy Shelton, The Hospitality of Need

Summary

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The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast

Episode: 1KHO 653: Gain Deeper Relationships Through Dependence on Others
Guests: Kevan Chandler & Tommy Shelton
Date: December 18, 2025
Host: Jenny Ervin (That Sounds Fun Network)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the transformative power of interdependence, vulnerability, and the “hospitality of need.” Jenny welcomes Kevan Chandler, author and disability advocate, and Tommy Shelton, pastor and co-author, to discuss their new book The Hospitality of Need: How Depending on One Another Helps Us Heal and Grow Together. Through personal stories, spiritual insights, and reflective questions, the conversation challenges listeners to rethink independence, embrace need as a path to deeper relationships, and build communities marked by mutual care.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction to the Guests and the Concept of "Hospitality of Need"

• Kevan Chandler shares his background living with spinal muscular atrophy (SMA), resulting lifelong dependence on others, and how it led to unique, profound relationships.
• Tommy Shelton recounts growing up in the same town as Kevan, many years of friendship, and what drew him to collaborate on the book.
• The genesis of the book: a unique friendship, a shared love of storytelling, and the realization that “need” itself can be a radical kind of hospitality.

Notable Quote:
"These guys, they're not just coming in to take care of me every morning. One of them referred to it as my predictable pattern...it's this guaranteed time of connection."
— Kevan Chandler [17:16]

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2. Reframing Hospitality and Need

• Jenny reflects on personal struggles with asking for help, societal expectations of independence, and how the book expands her perspective:
  • Traditional hospitality often means “hosting,” but the book reveals it’s about “how you make someone feel” and even “showing up to be fed.”
• Kevan describes how clarity about his needs opened doors for deeper friendships. His friends’ acts of caregiving became rhythms of connection and meaning in both their lives.

Notable Quotes:
"Hospitality is also showing up to be fed... that’s really challenging to me."
— Jenny Ervin [13:34]

"By inviting these guys into my need, I am saying to them that I trust them and that they are trustworthy... and it really does something powerful to a person's heart."
— Kevan Chandler [17:16]

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3. Vulnerability and Mutual Growth

• Tommy, as a pastor, shares how serving Kevan also serves him spiritually. He reorients the narrative around need; helping others isn’t just an obligation but a joy and a chance to be selfless.
• Conversation turns to why it’s hard to be the one in need:
  • The “air we breathe” in American Christianity is that growth means becoming more independent — but in fact, dependence is a spiritual virtue.
  • The cultural lie is that the giver is better than the receiver. In reality, both roles are essential to healthy community.

Notable Quotes:
"Even though it’s hard work… it is simultaneously such a surpassing joy."
— Tommy Shelton [20:33]

"We start to believe that the giver is better than the receiver. And that’s not the case at all."
— Tommy Shelton [27:51]

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4. Community, Ownership, and the Role of “Need” in Relationships

• Kevan illustrates with stories: needs—whether obvious or hidden—are the engine that forges authentic community:
  • His home became a hub for friends because of the caregiving rhythm; it fostered an open-door environment.
  • Through his courtship with his wife Katie (amid pandemic and physical distance), dependence on friends turned their love story into a community effort.
• Tommy observes that programs don’t build community, but shared needs, such as coordinating Vacation Bible School or responding to a personal crisis, do.

Notable Quotes:
"The invitation into that need... by stepping into this need, it now becomes part of my need also. I’m coming in shoulder to shoulder with this person."
— Kevan Chandler [32:32]

"Every time a need came up, and we rallied around it, that’s where the community came from."
— Tommy Shelton [39:10]

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5. When the Church Gets it Wrong — and How To Heal

• The conversation turns deeply personal as Jenny shares a painful story about losing her church community after seeking help:
  • The wounds of unmet needs in religious settings, their lasting damage, and the scarcity of genuine support.
• Tommy responds with honesty about his own experiences of being hurt by churches, reminding listeners not to judge Christ by those who fail in His name.
• Grace, humility, and mutual confession are offered as antidotes to pain and disillusionment with church.

Notable Quotes:
"If we have been harmed or damaged by someone claiming Christ, we haven’t been harmed or damaged by Christ. We’ve been harmed by someone who took the name of Christ."
— Tommy Shelton [55:45]

"I think our built-in reaction as people in human flesh is to go to self-preservation… if instead we approach situations with an intentional view that we need each other… it can help us to soften."
— Kevan Chandler [61:12]

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Memorable Moments & Quotes (with Timestamps)

• Forging Friendship Over Breakfast:
  "Friendships forged in the fires of eggs and swords."
  — Kevan Chandler [08:28]

• On Need and Value:
  “Needs are not crimes. It’s okay to confess those and invite other people to help meet those—not to overcome them, but to live in this life with you, which is marked by need from cradle to grave.”
  — Tommy Shelton [30:40]

• Power of Community in Crisis:
  “We need one another. We have been built, we’ve been designed for community."
  — Tommy Shelton [37:15]

• Redefining Burden:
  "Sometimes I can't help but wonder, you know, am I a burden? And it's like, no. Like, no, you're not. It's an opportunity."
  — Tommy Shelton [22:56]

• On the Fruit of Dependence:
  "I burst into laughter because I was like, oh, I’ve had deep conversations with 10 different men this week because they got me up in the morning."
  — Kevan Chandler [43:08]

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Key Timestamps

• 04:41 — Guests introduce themselves and set context for book collaboration
• 11:59 — Kevan introduces the “hospitality of need” concept
• 17:00-20:00 — How care rhythms create deep relationships
• 27:45 — Tommy's critique of the independence narrative in the church
• 32:32 — How need fosters true community & connection
• 39:54 — Tommy’s story of communal service via Vacation Bible School
• 41:03 — Kevan recounts how vulnerability allows others to see themselves differently
• 51:32 — Tommy’s favorite childhood outdoor memory
• 52:39-66:01 — Emotional discussion on church failure, healing from hurt, and living out vulnerability
• 66:25 — Tommy closes with a heartfelt prayer for Jenny and all listeners

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Tone, Style & Language

• Candid, humble, sometimes emotional (Jenny is brought to tears recounting her own trauma)
• Deeply spiritual and biblical, but also practical and concrete
• A blend of storytelling, thoughtful reflection, and actionable insight
• Frequently lightened by humor, warmth, and self-deprecation
  ("You're cheating, Bobby." [49:58])

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Concluding Reflections

The Hospitality of Need challenges the expectation of radical self-sufficiency, offering practical and spiritual reasons to embrace our needs and those of others as profound opportunities for connection and growth. Through laughter, tears, and prayer, the episode models the very hospitality it invites—being present with each other, in need, with open hands and open hearts.

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More Information

• Learn more about Kevan's work, accessible adventure gear, and his books (including the new King’s Cadet and Little Joe) at wecarrykevan.org
• Recommended reading: The Ball and the Cross by G.K. Chesterton

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Final Words:
"I think there’s really a lot of power in the book, The Hospitality of Need… Any time I am open to expressing my needs and inviting others in, it gives people practice. So maybe when they get… a letter in the mail from a nine-year-old girl that says, ‘I lost all my friends, will you please help?’—they don’t turn a blind eye."
— Jenny Ervin [52:39]

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Transcript

[A]

This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast. Smart move. Being financially savvy. Smart move. Another smart move. Having State Farm help you create a competitive price when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling. Just another way to save with a personal price plan like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts, and savings and eligibility vary by state. Hey friends. I've been meaning to record this for quite some time, but usually I am uploading these episodes like a few hours before they go live. It'll be like 1am and this is about to go at 4am so I haven't quite gotten around to it. But I just wanted to say a heartfelt thanks for your grace. I really have no idea what I'm doing. And last year, and actually for the past several years in the fall, I've gotten sick. Like, you know, cough and congested and all of that. And so there have been several days where I've had to. I've had to cancel my recording days, like with all the guests, because I'm coughing and I can't talk or whatever. So I, I just constantly over index. I record on Thursdays, sometimes our core 10, you know, usually at least eight, but sometimes 10, even 11. And I have not gotten sick. So I basically have way too many podcast episodes. That's the net net. And also people often cancel and some have canceled, but there's been very few cancellations as well. So anyway, I'm ending the year with like 40 extra podcast episodes.

[B]

So.

[A]

So I just, I don't totally know what to do about that. You'll hear this one, which I love, but I've been kind of nervous to post because I cry at the end. So there you go. But I've had it since the summer and I have others that I still have that are from the summer as well. So truly, I just want to thank you for your grace. People are like, why are there so many podcast episodes? And the answer is because. Well, it's twofold. First of all, there are tons of incredible people to talk to with incredible things to share. But more than that, I'm just really bad at business and I don't totally know what I'm doing, like I said at the beginning. And I was prepping today for a podcast with this man named Dr. Robert Brooks, and he's just talking about resilience and how we just should say to our kids, well, that didn't work. So we'll try something different. And I guess that's the spot I'm in right now too. Like, I. I guess what I did didn't work. So next year maybe I'll try something different. I was talking to my husband Josh about the fact that if I had a once a week podcast, which is kind of the norm, that I would pretty much be done for 2026. I think I'm gonna end the year with like 50 extra episodes, so. So, whoops. And I guess if there feels like there's too many for you, then you can just skip some. But once again, just a profound thanks for your grace. And I just kind of wanted to mention that since you're kind of getting an onslaught of podcast episodes, I mean, I was like, should I put up two a day? I don't think I should do that. But anyway, here's to you. If you're also trying things and you have no idea what you're doing and you're basing your decisions off of past years and things are different, I mean, it's kind of incredible that I have not gotten sick at all. Normally it's like a total staple for my fall, but hasn't happened. And so I just have all these extra episodes. That's all. Thanks for being here. Thanks for being part of this community. It is kind of weird to send these episodes out into the evening ether and just have no idea where they're landing. But I care about you. I'm thankful for you. I think that we would be friends if we live next door. Merry Christmas, Happy New Year and thanks for sticking around. Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Eric. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and one of your favorite guests. I've just loved our conversations is back Kevin Chandler and a new friend, Tommy Shelton. Welcome to you both.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

So, Kevin, you've been on twice and we just connected through SD Smith, but you brought him up in this new book you have out. It's called the Hospitality of Need. And I'm so glad we've connected. We connected over your adventures where you went with your friends and they carried you in a backpack all over Europe. Just incredible book. And then you wrote a kid's book called We Carry Kevin and you have this new book and you have done other things as well. You have this new book out which is a really thought provoking read. It's called the Hospitality of Need. How depending on one another helps us heal and grow together. And it's a topic that I have never heard anybody else talk about. So I'm excited for today's conversation. Can we kick it off with a little bit of intro? A little bit intro of your own personal story, and then if you could, weave it together, how the two of you ended up writing a book together?

[B]

Sure. So I. That is Kevin. I grew up in North Carolina. I have a rare disease called spinal muscular muscular atrophy, and that has me in a wheelchair and pretty dependent on others. But as the book explains, what I've seen through that is deeper relationships with others as well as with the Lord that I'm really thankful for. And we'll get more into that, but I'm married. We're. My wife and I are coming up on five years, and we live in Indiana and get to travel a lot, to speak and share about disability and my life with that and friendships and what. What that does for accessibility and connection.

[C]

Right on. And so I'm Tommy, and Kevin, and I grew up in the same town. I'm a little. A little older than Kevin. I got a bit more gray, but not that much more gray. But we graduated from the same high school, just a few classes apart. Kevin's mother and I worked together. I was a high school volunteer for a traveling drama group. She worked for a organization called Salem Salem Pregnancy Support Center. So we had these dramas that we take to youth groups and public schools and private schools. So I got to know the Chandler, whole Chandler family through that. Through that opportunity, that ministry. And then I happened to host a radio show on a local radio station with a best friend of mine. And Kevin and his family, being loyal WBFJ listeners, we were connected there, too. But then years, years later, through my radio co host, who also was the lead guitarist of a band that Kevin liked, they developed a friendship, and they came on down to Florida one time. How many years ago now, Kevin? Like, 15?

[B]

Yeah. You know, something like that. Yeah.

[C]

And we just kind of reconnected, and I talked about omelets, and he. He took great interest in my description of an omelet. Then he wrote a poem about the omelette, like, relating it to a samurai katana sword. And I thought, man, there's something here. If I could just talk about nothing. And he turns it into poetry. Maybe there's something here. So we stayed in touch over the next years, and Kevin and I just continue to talk about how amazing it would be one day you know, to write a book together. And then when Kevin approached me with this idea, I. I just couldn't shake it. And I was like, okay, yes. Yeah, we'll do this. So anyway, now we're here.

[B]

Friendships forged in the fires of eggs and swords.

[A]

There you go. In poetry.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Your pastor Tommy, down in the Tampa area at Live Oaks Bible Church.

[C]

Yes, ma'.

[B]

Am.

[A]

Just surviving through vbs.

[C]

Yeah, we. We have vbs. So my entire days, I'm like a. I'm like an infant that is very confused. You know, the days and nights are confused. So since it's a night. Vba. Anyway. So anyway, I'm a little. Yes, but I'm here. And yeah, I've been here for almost seven years pastoring here. But before that, I did quite the. The tour of duty and youth ministry and church planting. But I was called here. It'll be seven. Seven years in September, so.

[A]

All right.

[B]

Super cool.

[A]

So the book. The book really is challenging to me. I, you know, to be very honest, struggle with asking for help, really almost struggle with the side of friendship. Like, I don't think it's out of pride. I think it's out of insecurity, where you kind of want to hold it. So the book is a really challenging read. It's interesting, my view of hospitality. So I love to read the Bible. You know, the Bible says, practice hospitality, which I think is such a cool verse because. Because you're always practicing it, right? You're never nailing it. You're always pray. I'm always in practice. And so actually, that was actually an encouraging thing to me. Even with a book, I was like, well, I can practice some of these things, but I always, at that point in my life, would have considered, if I were to give a definition for hospitality, I would have thought of hosting, you know, hosting things. And then I heard someone say, hospitality is how you make someone else feel. And I was like, oh, that's a really expanded version of hospitality. Hospitality. And I thought that was interesting. And then my friend Christine Bailey, she wrote a book called the Kindred Life. And I read that a couple years ago, and she said, and this was sort of my first foray into what you wrote about in this book. She said, hospitality is also showing up to be fed. And I was like, that's really challenging to me. And it was really interesting then to read your story, Kevin, and to sort of try and put myself in a different position where you talk about, you know, not a day goes by where you say, maybe not even an hour that you don't ask for help in some way. And then struggling with this feeling of, am I a burden? You say, I have Often struggled, wondering if I am, more than anything else, a burden. There are only so many ways to ask for help before you start to wonder, but you weave together, and it's so powerful. One of the main texts, biblical texts that you use is a story where these friends lowered a paralytic man on a mat to see Jesus. Now, of course, I've heard that story my whole life, but you framed it in such a wonderful way that almost makes you feel like you're there and you're like, yeah, well, what would it be to cut a hole in a roof? But more than that, it's like that story is about the whole group and what it does for everyone. You're like, by lowering the paralytic man to the feet of Jesus, it brought the friends closer to Jesus too. This is really a profound book. Can you just talk about. Kevin, I know you have this history in there where someone said to you the phrase the hospitality of need and how coming to help, you know, in the mornings, it helped them in. In very profound ways. And if we don't have that, we miss out on a depth of relationship.

[B]

Yeah, well, to give a little more context that you're. You're referring to, with my specific situation, being in a wheelchair, I do need, as I mentioned earlier, a lot of help with my caregiving and. And everything. And part of that is literally being gotten out of bed and ready for the day every. Every morning. And so I have different guys that come and do that, and they're all just friends. They're just volunteering because we have a friendship. And so one of those guys, we were at a prayer meeting where I. I got to share my testimony, and they were praying over me afterwards. And. And this friend who gets me up on Wednesdays was there, and during his prayer, he thanked God for giving me the gift of hospitality, of need, which is kind of a mouthful. And when you. When you add all of that, that together. And. And I didn't really know what it meant, but it. It intrigued me because I. I was. I've lived this way for my whole life. I've invited people into my need, but I never really had a term for it, you know, and we have that experience in all of our lives where some things just come naturally to us or it's just what we do. And other people look on and say, oh, that's. I don't do that. That's different. What. You know, can you explain it? And you're like, I can't explain it. I can't teach this because it's just what I do. But, but then, you know, the Lord is so kind to, over time, give us terminology, give us insight into what, what he's given us and ways to share about it. But. And so this was one of those. And so I took home that phrase, the hospitality of need, and sat on it, no pun intended, for a while. And every morning for the next couple of weeks, when a guy would come and get me up, he would get me situated on the toilet, and that's when we have our deep discussions because we're just kind of sitting there. And so I would ask them, each guy, what, when I say the phrase the hospitality of need, what comes to mind? And it was so great to hear their feedback. And that actually turned into a time of encouragement for both of us on either side of that conversation. But what I found and really was able to. What really took shape, I guess, is that these guys, they're not just coming in to take care of me every morning. One of them referred to, referred to it as my predictable pattern. Like, he said, he, he's a pastor in Fort Wayne and has four kids, and, you know, it's really busy. And he said, but even if we don't text throughout the week or get to get together, I know that every other Tuesday, I, I will get an hour and a half of quality time with you. Like, that's our friendship. It's this guaranteed time of connection. The guy who gets me up on Wednesday went through a season, a really hard season of some, some medical difficulties in their family and just a lot going on. And I, I told him at one point, my wife Katie and I talked about it, and I, I went to him and said, hey, we, we really love you and we love your family. And I know you're. This is a really difficult season. If it would be better for you to have a morning off, like, to be able to say on Wednesday mornings I can just relax and take it easy at home, or, or if you have other things you need to fill that time with, we will, we will figure it out. Like, don't, don't worry about us. If you need to take some time away, that's okay. And he just laughed at that offer and said, no, this is actually the only, like, piece of rhythm that I have in my life right now. Everything else is all over the place. And, and I know that whatever else is going on in the week, I'm going to get time with my friend on Wednesday. And I, I've had other guys that say my life is so busy but that hour or two hours in the morning every week or every other week is quiet. And I get away from my phone because you need my attention. And, and it's just this quality time of, of brotherhood and real bonding. So I think that's one aspect. Another I'll just share briefly is that by inviting these guys into my need, I am saying to them that I trust them and that they are trustworthy. And expressing to someone that, that you trust them with your body and your life into that level or, or whatever your need may be, if it's finances or time or emotions, expressing to someone that you trust them at that level really does something powerful to a person's heart that I think is important for us to, to experience. And, and so much of this that I'm sharing is, you know, I have a responsibility in all of that. If they're taking care of me, that means I don't have to worry about myself. So my responsibility is to turn my attention on them. But also I, I do fail at that. You know, I'm, I'm not perfect. I, I mess up a lot in that some, some mornings I'm just not awake enough to, to give them the attention that they really deserve. And yet the hospitality of need is more about the hospitality that is in need. It's, it's not just what you're going to do with it because you. Inviting someone into your need, you get the opportunity to care for them, but God is going to care for them anyways, despite you. And so really being intentional is important. But know that there's care that's going to happen anyways, if that makes sense.

[A]

Yeah, I like how you talked about that. Your needs are clear. You use the phrase we're weirdly clear. You know, weirdly clear needs. And, but you say we all have needs, though. And so it's an interesting pairing for a book because you're a pastor, Tommy, so, you know, similar. Just, you know, just certain people in life, A pastor I think would be one in particular. A pastor is often, very often, mostly just caring for needs. And I think this is the, you know, one of the really challenging parts of the book is, well, what do you do when your needs are not as clear? You still have them. So I would love to hear from your perspective, Tommy, like, how this relates to your life and being the pastor, being the one that runs everything, being the one that's counseling people, being the one that people are coming to. How have you been able to implement this in your own life?

[C]

The most people that, that Come to me for. For pastoral care. They come so apologetic. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. You know, so I know this is the inconvenience. I know you have a lot. I'm so. I'm sorry. Sorry. I'm sorry. And like, this experience in my relationship with Kevin, and it's not. It hasn't just been like, you know, over keyboards, you know, like. Like the Lord has ordained really wonderful times where we've been together to. For extended time to write the book and also just. Just for other, you know, for other reasons. And I have been able to be the one to help meet some of these needs of Kevin. And I will actually find myself, look, looking forward to those times. You know, next week we're going to be together all week, road trip and a little bit for the book. And as hard as it can be to meet Kevin where he is and meet those needs, it's like, it's one of these things where you can say it, but it's hard to make anybody believe it. Like, even though it's hard work and Kevin carrying you around is hard, I don't know if you know that, but it is simultaneously such a surpassing joy. And so if you have eyes to see the opportunity and a heart to desire the joy that comes from serving other people, you can actually look forward to that difficult opportunity. Like, my life is so consumed with myself and what I want to do and how I want to spend my time. Time with Kevin is like, it is a joy because at the very least, I need to step in and serve in these ways. Because in those times, it's often it's Kevin and Katie, his wife, and myself. And like, next week, you know, on the road, so I'm going to have to be the one to do it. And it's like, literally, thank God I'm the one that has to do it. Like, it'll leave me no excuse but to be selfless. And that is like, you know, for believers. And I know that it's just one of those things where if you get it, you get it. But my. The resurrected part of me deeply desires, wants nothing more than to be selfless, like, to live for the glory of God and the joy of his people. Outside of myself, what my flesh still wants to live for me. So when you look at, yes, the opportunity of need, the hospitality of need, it's like an invitation. Like, here, be more like Jesus. So the people that come to me, my members of my congregation, they come so apologetic after this experience, in particular in writing the book. I've changed how I respond. And I say, it's my joy. Like, thank you. Like, thank you for trusting me. I'm like. And sometimes I've even said, hey. And they'd like, oh, I'm so sorry, Pastor. We've taken up too much time. And I'm like, what, two hours?

[A]

You.

[C]

Like, for two hours, this hasn't been about me. Thank you. Like, what an opportunity, you know, like, thank you. Don't. I don't. Don't feel, you know, like, Kevin, of all the things that you wrote in the book that I read, like. And she's pointed out, too, that line, you know, sometimes I can't help but wonder, you know, am I a burden? And it's like, no. Like, no, you're not. Like, you're. You know, it's. It's an opportunity. So we can't escape the perfection of the name. Even though we did try with the publisher, we were both hashing out together, you know, we must have tried. I don't know, Kevin, 20 different alternative titles that might be more quickly understandable, but I don't think it could be called anything other than the Hospitality of Need, because it really is what it is.

[A]

All right, I'm sticking with you, Tommy, because this is what I really want to know. This is what challenged me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I think that probably most people have a time in their life when they do something for somebody else, and it makes them feel good, too. Right. You feel that, like, win, win of it.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

I think what I was really challenged by in the book is approaching my relationships in a way that's more vulnerable. That's sort of what I got out of it. From my side, it was like, well, maybe I'm being. I don't know what the word is. Is it selfish? Is it guarded? Is it prideful? Is it. I'm not quite sure, to be like, I would prefer to be the helper. Right. Or I would prefer. And I feel very vulnerable. And, I don't know, it's not really a part of my. And so I guess. I guess it's a really interesting juxtaposition for me reading that. This is from Kevin. Right. So, you know, Kevin, you're saying. I mean, I had help from everything from, you know, when I'm young all the way to my love story. You know, I'm. You know, I'm always with these other people. You know, this is. This is a one situation. And then, Tommy, as a. I mean, particularly as being a pastor, as almost like a figurehead in A congregation and being the person that people come to, that's the role that you have in your, in your day to day life is like. I don't really quite know what my, what my question is, but like, did it challenge you in the way that it challenged me to look at my own needs and to be more open with them and to look at them as a way that helps foster relationship, as an opportunity? I don't know. I'm delivering.

[C]

No, no, I, I know. I appreciate that. I speak that language quite fluently, actually.

[A]

You speak flabber?

[C]

Yeah. No, yeah.

[B]

Yapping.

[C]

Yapping. And also I'm yapping from the pulpit. So I'm a, I'm a pastor and I do want that to be. The first of my title is pastor. It means shepherd. The pastor and shepherd, when we've gone on mission trips to Spanish speaking countries, it's so cool because the word is actually pastor. There's. They don't have two different words for like someone who tends sheep and someone who watches over a congregation. Pastor Jesus. Jesus. Esme Pestor Jesus is my pastor. He's my shepherd. So I, I first want to be known as a shepherd, but I'm also a preacher. And I think that's secondly, like, very much so. And they go hand in hand. I mean, the Venn diagram of pastor and preacher really should be just a circle. You know, they should be completely overlapped. So I pay a lot of attention to what is being preached in the church. So pastorally, I want to absolutely live out everything that I'm preaching. We do have to preach the right thing. And here's what I think might be the source of some of our disquiet about needs and how to see them, how to understand them. I believe the air that we're all breathing in the church, especially in America, is that to grow in Christ means to get better. You're getting better every day. And how we define better is more capable, which means more independent, less in need. Like. Yeah, you know, in, you know, and I, I don't do the, the overly practical nature of things. Like, you gotta, you gotta get out of debt. You gotta, you know, you gotta, you know, you gotta be patient. You gotta do this, you gotta be a good leader in your workplace. You gotta be a lighthouse in your neighborhood. You gotta, you gotta, you gotta, gotta. And it kind of strikes me that we all agree that to give is better than to receive. And we always talk about it at Christmas, you know, in parents, you know, the joy of the, you know, they're the Kids, you know, the kids, like, yeah, lighten up.

[A]

God is not my choice.

[C]

No. Yeah, so, but I think what we end up believing with that expression is not just it's better to give than receive. We start to believe that the giver is better than the receiver. And that's, that's not the case at all. Like, that's not what's, that's not what's in view at all. So I, I think the reason we keep. And it's all, I mean pride of course is everywhere. It's like the, it's like the, you know, the hydra of trying to wrestle with your flesh and be more like Jesus. Your pride is everywhere. It's multi tentacle. But I think that we hide any inkling of weakness because we actually kind of think that to need is almost like anti our Christian walk. It's like we almost feel like needs are against who we should be. Like, no, no, I need to present myself as the most capable, the most unflappable, the most independent person. And like it's never going to happen. I mean, that's a lie. I mean every, Everybody knows, it's a lot. Everybody knows that we need other people, but it's almost like a lie we've all agreed to just go along with. It's like if, if you won't, if you won't burst my bubble, then I won't burst yours. You know, that all I need. And there's even, even some of this comes up in, in, in thinking that is so beautiful and so devoted to the Lord. You'll hear things like, well, you know, I don't need anything but Jesus. If it was just me and Jesus on a deserted island, I would have everything. And it's like, not according to Jesus. Like, Jesus didn't call us to live insular, you know, needless lives. He's actually called us to great desperation. I preached the Tower of Babel one time and I preached it as the most gracious thing that God could have done for humanity. Because humanity was like, let's build a tower, let's reach the heavens. It means, especially in the ancient mind, we can be God, let's get up high and we can be God. We're going to make a name for ourselves. And God in scattering the people, he's removing that notion of independence. He's removing that notion of it can be all about me. We can be all that we need, we can be independent, we can be needless. And that's just not the life that God calls us to. God graciously the most gracious thing that God can do is make us dependent on him, you know, to. To make us need him. And, you know, then we get close to him and he's like, feed my sheep, you know, so we. We've been called to a life of need. And so even if it's just a conversation starter or a rally cry against that notion, I'm pleased to be a part of something that says, no, no, no. Like, needs are not crimes. You know, like, it's okay to confess those and invite other people to help. You know, to help meet those, not to overcome them, mean delete them and move on, but, you know, invite other people to live in. In this life with you, which is marked by need from cradle to grave.

[A]

Oh, it's really. I think, like, I walk away from the book, and I think that my most pressing question is, like, how can I be more like Kevin? You know, like, that's sort of like what I get out of it. Well, in that vein of, like, I started off with, the hospitality is also showing up to be fed. It's very challenging. I think we live in a really independent culture, and you paint such a really cool picture. It actually came up twice in the book, Kevin, because it's in the introduction. And then it's also. So Douglas McKelvey wrote the introduction, so it's part of his introduction, and then it comes up later. Kevin, when you're talking about you had a couch surfer staying at your house, and he was like, I don't even know who lives here, you know, And I think a lot of people. I think a lot of people would. They like the idea of your home being a place that no one knocks, you know, that people just come in. And I would imagine, though, that for most people, it's not that. Even with some of our closest friends, you know, I'm like. I kind of walk in, but I feel a little awkward, you know, or people knock still, and you paint this picture. It's really powerful that, you know, what creates that. Is it small groups? Is it, you know, 50 years of friendship? What creates the revolving door type friendship? And through both stories, it's like, well, needs do.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And it's the invitation into that need and then the person who's invited taking a sense of ownership that by stepping into this need, it now becomes part of, like, it's. It's now my need. Also. I'm coming in shoulder to shoulder with this person. And, you know, I. Throughout the book, we. We talk about that. And I. I love that about my life that, you know, as you mentioned, we had guys coming and going from that house because they were coming in to take care of me. And so as a result, they did sleep at our house, they did watch movies at our house. They didn't make food at our house. Like, it became their house as well. And, and later in the book, I. I talk about the. The season of. Of dating and being engaged to Katie before we got married. And spoiler alert for those who are going to read the book. But that season was 2020. And. And so it didn't look like a normal situation of, you know, living in the same town and going out on dates and that kind of thing. It looked like the world is shut down. How. How do I see her? How. How do we get time together or, you know, we don't live in the same state or the same country for part of the time. Like, how do we get to connect in that time? And she was living in China before COVID hit, and then she was brought home because of that. And all of that just. It was a very strange time, and yet we invited so many guys into the situation in order to make it work. And as a result, they. They took pride in being part of our love story. You know, they were. They were rooting for us. Just like when you're watching, you know, your favorite rom com and you're like, yeah, go for it. Chase her down the street in the rain. You know, go for it. I mean, I. I remember, you know, one night, I. One guy was going to be staying with me at the house, and Katie was staying at a friend's house a few blocks away, and we had had a conversation, and it. I didn't really get to get wrapped up, and. And I really felt like I needed to go and go for a walk with her and finish the conversation. And it was some wedding planning stuff, and. And I didn't want to do it over the phone. And. And so I just, you know, the friend was like, yeah, I'll. I'll wait here. You go and see her, like, and come back when you're done. I'll. I'll fall asleep on the couch till you get back. Take its bunions you need. You know, he was rooting for us. And. And then I think of our wedding and. And the dance party with all these guys and their wives or their girlfriends or, you know, and just our families. Everybody was like, we made it, you know, not because there was relational tension for us, but because it really was like, us against the world. And yet it wasn't just Katie and I against the world. It was Katie and I and 50 other guys and their families against the world. And as we have all seen in the Avengers movies, when you have a team that big things can, can happen. The world can be saved.

[C]

So, so in the, in the language of blabbery or, or yapping as it's known. Let me, let me see if this makes sense real quick. So you mentioned 2020. Kevin, like, is. I think that that was an experience culturally that should tell us that our needs actually are beyond just the, the staples, you know, like, as far as I know, nobody starved to death. Like, I, it could, I'm sure it probably happened somewhere. But like, during that whole season, you know, everybody is. Well, you know, all their work got switched to remote so they could stay at home, you know, and, you know, grocery delivery and whatnot. So you, you found that there were people that had no in person, like, physical interaction for months. But yet they're, they had power, they had shelter, they had food. So they had everything they needed. But yet just such misery was, you know, such loneliness was so pervasive. So I think, sometimes I think, well, I don't know. I know the Lord ordains things. I believe that he's sovereign and he's never kind of just doing one thing. So, you know, Kevin's needs, meeting those needs, their physical needs, but it also meets his interpersonal need, the need to be in community. But it also solves that for the caregiver. The saddest, most powerful example I have of this involves the country of Labrador. I don't know if, you know, Labrador, but it's like this. It's like, imagine Northeast Canada Island, Labrador. It's like out. It's like up there and out there. And, you know, for centuries, their whole culture was in whaling. You know, they would, they would whale and that would meet all the needs of the community. Well, you know, as we moved into modernity, the Canadian government was very concerned about this whaling industry. So, and I'm not making any comments about that. I'm just saying this is what, what happened. Canada decided to give every Labrador, Labradorian a stipend, like a living wage, like, stop wailing. We'll pay your bills. And overnight alcoholism and every other heartbreaking sin just skyrocketed because overnight communities dissolved because you wouldn't have to come. You know, the industry was very communal. It wasn't just one guy doing something. It was, it was. The whole community was wrapped around this thing. So everybody was just staying in Their homes, paying their bills, eating their food and not living life together and just misery, you know, became the industry of that, of, of that people. And we need one another. We have been built, we've been designed for community. And Jenny, you mentioned a minute ago, how do we foster that? Is it small groups and. Well, you know, I've, I've been in the professional Christian business for a couple decades, few decades. I don't know, my whole life. My dad's a pastor, and every time I've been a part of a church that tries to make a program out of something, it hasn't worked. But every time that a need has arise, has arisen, arose, a rave, a root, every time a need came up, there you go. And we rallied around it. That's where the community came from. So this, this, this week, you know why I was so frazzled and late? Like vacation Bible school. It's in the evening and it's great. It's a wonderful outreach to the kids. Kids are learning Bible. I get to operate a puppet. All good things. But the most beautiful thing that I've seen is the. My member, my church members, my, my church family working together.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, to pull this off. So, you know, vbs, since we decided to do it, it became a need and people rallied to, to meet that need. And now look, I'm closer to everybody involved in this ministry than I was before.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. It's a, it's a really thought provoking, challenging book. I really liked it a whole lot. And, and the stories really stick with you. Like, you know, you talk about the story, Kevin, where you dropped your wallet and you're like, you're outside and like, is anybody going to pick this up for me? You tell this story about you're doing this prison ministry and you're like, you know, it's like pouring down rain. And you're like, you got your wheelchair at top speed, you know, like going through the rain, trying to get to this, you know, the spot that you're supposed to be. And then your wheelchair just conks out. Right. Because it got all wet or. And that you, I mean, this was like a huge thing. You say, men convicted of assault gently dried my hair and face and bent down to warm up my legs. And so you say this state of helplessness became an opportunity for these other people to grow. And maybe even more than that, Kevin, like, maybe it gave them an opportunity to see themselves differently.

[B]

Yeah. Wow. Yeah, you're right. That's a really beautiful thing because the world, the society has deemed Them, you know, with a certain status, with a certain title, and by saying, hey, can you take care of me? By them stepping in and making the. The conscious effort to. To care for me in that moment, they're changing that title and they're seeing that I. I don't think of them that way because, you know, as you say that, I. I think it's a prison. You know, if I come in soaking wet and my wheelchair dies out because it's waterlogged, it would not be unreasonable for this group of guys in jumpsuits to say, oh, I'll go get the guard to take care of you. Like, I. I'll back up, because it could be taken the wrong way, you know, but because we had had two months of relationship building. It was my. My summer internship in college because of that two months of building relationship and me seeing them differently and them seeing themselves differently and us studying the Word together, and so knowing that Jesus sees them differently, they were able to exemplify that and really step into that. Not just step into my need, but step into their new identity as sons of. Sons of God. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. It's really powerful. It's really powerful. I like that you talk about your friends Drew 1 Drew to Drew Truth, I would guess Kevin. And I don't know if they would ever. You probably would never be able to compare, but it's like you probably have the strongest relationships of most anyone.

[B]

Well, I'm. I'm thankful for them. I'm thankful for the relationships I have. I remember, and I may have mentioned this in one of our other conversations before, but I remember reading a book a few years ago about men and their relationships. And I was sitting in a coffee shop reading it, and I came across a line that said, most adult men are lucky to have one deep relationship with another man. And I. I actually, like, involuntarily burst into laughter because I was like, oh, I've had, like, deep conversations with 10 different men this week because they got me up in the morning, they gave me a shower, they turned me in the middle of the night, they helped me with the restroom, you know, what. Whatever it is. And. And so, yeah, I'm just. I'm so thankful for the. The friendships that God has given me and really thankful for who. Who I. I am physically, you know, because I. I don't think those relationships would be as deep without. Without these needs. And so I. I think he has. Just as Jesus used his human needs, which we talk about in the book at length, thanks to Tommy, we just as Jesus used his human needs as opportunities to care for others. So I, I believe he's called us to invite people into our needs and see it as an opportunity to care for one another. Not as an obstacle to deeper relationship, but as a tool, as an opportunity.

[A]

It's really challenging. I really, really liked it. It was really thought provoking. And I've had this journey in my life of like, you know, what is hospitality practice, hospitality and you know that other part of it showing up to be fed. And you get a really clear picture from the book of the incredible benefits that are there because we have needs. The benefits that wouldn't be there if we were all just self sufficient and needed nothing. So I loved it. I have to tell you one last thing. So my whole life, you know, it's like you always hear about G. G.K. chesterton, you know, you see his quotes everywhere. So I was like, okay, you talked about him in the book and you're like, you've got this, you know, you talked about the Wednesday, Thursday. So I was like, I'm doing it. I've never read his books. I was like, I'm going to get it. So I got that book, the man who Was Thursday. Anyway, don't get it at all. I was like, what is this book? I think I got like six chapters in. And I was like, Mr. Sime. And I'm like, I don't even know what's going on.

[B]

Well, can I tell you, I. So I love Chesterton. My best friend that I grew up with is obsessed with Chesterton and he really has helped to shape my love for him as well. And, and my kind of gateway into Chesterton was the man who Was Thursday. But that was, gosh, 15 years ago, maybe, maybe more. And having read several, several other of his books and articles and poetry and whatnot, the man who is Thirsting might be my least favorite.

[A]

Oh good. I'm so ready.

[B]

And yet, I mean, I still, I still love it, but it's, you know, it's, it's choosing your favorite, you know, choosing a bad Spielberg movie. It's like that, that's not really gonna happen. Some you can like more than others, but it's all great, you know, so, so, so, so I would say if you want to, if you are good with giving him another try, go to the ball on the cross. All right, that's a really, really great one. It's about a Christian and an atheist and they, they meet and they realize how much they disagree and they decide that they are going to, they Go to a pawn shop and buy two swords and decide they're going to do to the death and the world will not let them. So they, they run from the police, they run from the society and they're just trying to find a quiet, peaceful spot where they can duel to the death over what they believe is the most important thing, which is whether or not God exists. And that's all I'm going to say because that's all. But it, it takes some wacky and wild and redemptive and amazing turns that is just really, really fun and awesome. So yeah, the ball in the crowd.

[A]

Okay. I appreciate it because I feel like I'll be a little bit more sophisticated if I've read at least one of his books, chapter six. And I was like, I have no idea what's going on. Anyway, this has been such an honor. Kevin has the. Well, it's a non profit. That's what you say, right? Where you can buy backpacks just like similar to what Kevin was carried in across Europe for families and so that they can go adventure more. This fits really well with 1000 hours outside because there are a lot of needs out there, kids and adults who would like to adventure a little bit more. And you can join in at we carry kevin.org It's a Kevin with an A K e v a n.org and you have your We Carry Kevin book, the We Carry Kevin kids book, a new book that just came out called the King's Cadet and Little Joe and that's a fantastic book. I mean this is what I said. Kevin, like you are starting to amass as a book stack here and the newest one, the Hospitality of Need. Kevin has answered this question, I'm pretty sure in a previous podcast. So Tommy, we're going to end with you. What's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside?

[C]

Oh my goodness. I have so many. I, I am an eagle Scout, so I spent a lot of time outside. Got favorite memory outside? Oh man, I, I can't. But I will tell you one of, one of the ones that jumped to the front of my mind when my last couple years of youth ministry. For a week out of the summer I did this two, two summers in a row. This is my last two years. I think I took my senior high school guys like the guys that just graduated from.

[A]

Oh wait, no, no, you gotta go further back. It's gotta be from your childhood.

[C]

Childhood. Oh, but what about their childhood? You're cheating, Bobby.

[A]

You're cheating. Meeting.

[C]

Oh man. Well, so that same property in North Carolina that I took these graduated senior high guys to. I. I grew up going there on long weekends with my family, and they were few and far between because my dad was a pastor, you know, so Sundays were kind of like. So it was. It was rare that we got to. But out in the woods, we. There was no clocks. There's a big creek we would go down, and we would, you know, know, play in the creek and dam up the creek and splash in the creek, and we'd curl up at. At night, and we had this tiny little tv. And this shows how old I was. My dad borrowed the. The VCR from the. The denomination. Like, 60 congregations shared this VCR.

[A]

People are like, what's a VCR, Tommy?

[C]

I know. And. And. And we watched, like, we watched the Ten Commandments or Ben Hur or something on. On a TV that's barely bigger than my phone.

[B]

And.

[C]

And we. And just, you know, just piled up as a family in this dumpy little trailer, you know, in the middle of the woods after, you know, playing around all day. I. I grew up in the. In the woods, really. I did. I. I grew up on 80 acres of undeveloped land because it was the land the church owned. And so I. I did. I was like one of those, you know, filthy, you know, Gen X, like feral children. You know, I just. I would go out and adventure in the woods and come home. I'm like, I didn't grow up in the 50s, I promise. But it was. It was awesome. So, yes, go out in the woods.

[A]

There we go. It's a perfect ending. The book is called the Hospitality need, one of my favorites I've ever read. Very, very challenging for me. It made me think a lot about how I structure my life. And there was, like. I'm, like, there's. I'm emotional. We got kicked out of church last year. I'm surprised how emotional I am. Being on a podcast with a pastor. It's a. It's actually a really big thing. I've. It's the biggest need that we ever had was to get help at this church that we were at, and turned out that the youth pastor was a pedophile. And it's the biggest need that we ever had because we lost our whole community. And we all sent letters and our kids said, can you please help? And we got kicked out. And so it's interesting to think about, like, it's interesting to think about how when you get it wrong, it's so damaging to community. And so I guess I thought too, like, the more the more opportunities we have to get it right.

[C]

Yes, ma'. Am.

[A]

Wouldn't we be all better off? And so I was challenged that way too. I was like, well, anytime that I am open to expressing my needs and inviting other people in, it gives people practice. So maybe when they get a letter in the mail from a 9 year old girl that says, I lost all my friends, will you please help, they don't turn a blind eye. So anyway, sorry, I didn't know if I was gonna go there. No, I'm in emotional since you got on. It's interesting, Tommy. It's been over a year, but I mean, it's really, really damaging. And you know, probably one of the biggest needs I've ever had is a mom, you know, trying to raise five kids and losing our whole community. So anyway, I think it's a really powerful book.

[C]

Well, well, hold on, hold on. You can't. I gotta, I gotta add, you know.

[B]

Just say that and then close.

[C]

Part, part of the antidote to this and where grace can abound, right, and we all get humbled is if we're more willing to admit things like this. So this is probably not something I would want to share when I'm trying to, you know, convince people of my credentials and yes, you should read my words, but I was hired and fired from the same church twice. In addition to the other church that I was fired from and that church I was fired, or excuse me, I was released to follow my core passion, but I was released to follow my core passion with a bunch of tiny children six weeks before Christmas. And instead of a severance package that I was promised, they took up a collection and I got $600 of gift cards from Walmart, in addition to a bicycle for my youngest girl who didn't actually need one. Thank you very much in departing. I, I. So I have three very profound drives out of parking lots of churches. And the first time that I got that, I got fired and it turned out that the pastor was having an affair with my secretary. And that had a great deal to do with the fact that I was dismissed. Here's a grace that the Lord gave me because it was from him. It was foreign. It was not me, it was him. And I don't know how he spoke, I don't know how he moved, but however he does, I left that parking lot praying this prayer. I said, lord Jesus, I will not blame you or punish you for what other people have done in your name. And I said, I will not be bitter, Lord Jesus, I will not be Bitter, we will be wronged by people.

[B]

Right.

[C]

I did a study through the book of First John, and one of the conclusions that I came from John's writing about the. Just the heart of Jesus and who we're supposed to reflect, who we're supposed to represent, is that if we have been harmed, if we have been damaged, if we have been lied to, if.

[B]

We.

[C]

In the church, it. It actually wasn't the church. You know, if we've been harmed or damaged by someone claiming Christ, we haven't been harmed or damaged by Christ. We've been harmed or damaged by someone who took the name of Christ. And then you flash forward to a series I did on the Ten Commandments and studying the Ten Commandments. I chose that because I was burned out and I didn't quite know what to do with my next teaching series. And I'm like, okay, let me do something basic and simple. God tricked me. Do not take the name of the Lord, your God in vain. Do not take God's name in vain.

[B]

Right. We.

[C]

We always interpreted that as, you can't say gd. You can't say, you know, oh my. You have to say, oh, my gosh. You know, we. If you, especially if you grow up in the Bible belt, oh my gosh. Taking the Lord's name in vain is, don't put my name on your jersey if you're not going to play for my team.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, don't. Don't use my name if you're going to harm people. Like, don't do something harmful in my name. Do some. Don't do anything with my name on you. That's not according to who I am, my heart, my character, my nature. So I'm guilty. I haven't lived perfectly. I know that probably some decisions that, that I've made or some things that I've. That I've said have hurt people. So here's my antidote to that, though, is just to admit it. Just to say it out loud. Like, I have been harmed by people in Jesus's name. I have.

[B]

I. I have.

[C]

On people in Jesus's name. How. How dare I? How dare they? How dare they? So you. You can stop. You can. I want to pray for you, but you can, you know, you can stop the thing or whatever, or you.

[B]

Where.

[C]

I can just pray now and you can decide what to do with it.

[B]

But I want to pray for you.

[A]

Thank you.

[C]

And your family. Yeah.

[A]

And.

[C]

And it's. It's Jenny, right?

[A]

Yeah, it's Jenny. Yeah.

[C]

Okay. I'm sorry. I'm Just one of my core weaknesses is names. I'm.

[A]

So who are you?

[C]

I would. I. I would nickname. I would nickname all the kids in my youth group. They would all have nicknames because I can remember the nicknames. This one dude, he was an 8th grade dude, and he comes and confesses to me that he's struggling with Internet content. And so I'm like, oh, brother, let me pray. And then after I already bowed my head, I realized I don't know this guy's real name. I only. I only know his nickname.

[A]

Pray for Rocky. Yes.

[C]

No, I remember it. I said, lord, I lift up my brother. And then I paused and I was like, captain Taggart. Because his nickname was Captain Taggart. I don't.

[A]

Yeah, it's Ginny. I appreciate it. I do want to just reiterate. I think it's Jenny. Like, I think reading the book, it was twofold. It showed the power of when you get it right. And I think our. Our experience is the power in the other direction of when people get it wrong. And also I wondered like, Kevin and, you know, I don't know if you would have thoughts on this or not, but I wondered, like, is this is part of it? Could part of it be the result of being so independent? And I'm like, here are these eight elders at a church, these grown men. And I'm like, maybe you just haven't had enough experience. I mean, I. I guess elders of a church should be having experience with people in helping people, right?

[C]

They shouldn't have been elders to begin.

[B]

With if that's the case.

[A]

Yeah. I don't really know, but I'm like, maybe as a society, we do need more exposure to helping people so that we're better at it. And the only way that we can do that is if we are open with the needs that we have. So.

[C]

Yeah, well, I don't want to. I don't want to. I don't want to, you know, beat a resurrected horse. But when I. When I was fired from that first church, it was because of the senior pastor's affair with my secretary. Ten days after I was fired, they learned of his affair and he was fired. Well, then I approached the elders of that church saying, I've only missed one Sunday, like restoration. I would love to return to this youth group. And the elder's response was, we would love for you to return, too. And I was like, oh, my goodness, how amazing. And then he goes, but if you return, that would be admitting to the church that the elders were powerless to stop this Pastor from doing something that was wrong. And so I think the church needs confidence in the elders. So I'm sorry, we can't bring you back. What? What?

[A]

It's really hard. It's really hard. We're still grappling with it. But you know, there is a verse in Proverbs and it says something along the lines of when you're in the way of life, you're also in the way of life for others. And when you're in the way of death, you also cause harm to others. It's right in Proverbs. And I mean, it's kind of like what you were talking about earlier, Tommy. It happens. It happens. Some people are in the way of death. And, and I think if you have a church staff and you have a pedophile, that's the youth pastor and you don't even know it, you know, and people send in some concerns. This guy seems off and you know, like you're kind of in the way of death. Like where is the spiritual discernment? And you know, or, or just the youth pastor himself, he's in the way of death, you know, and, and so you end up sometimes in the crosshairs.

[B]

And I would say too, that, well, if in these moments of conflict and, and tension, you know, independence and self preservation are a product of default, they're a part of the sin nature, right? The. The old man. And, and so when we come into conflict as believers, we have a choice, are we going to be the old man or the new man? And the. I think our built in reaction as people in human flesh is to go to the old man, to go to self preservation. I, I have a pride to, to keep here. I have, I need to keep control of things. And independence, you know, heck with this person. Heck with this group of people. You know, it's. I don't, I don't need them, you know, and, and if instead we approach situations with an intentional view that we need each other and you know, I, I need you and you need me. Not that that's the end all. Be all of that intentionality, but I think it's a tool, it can help us to soften. You know, Katie and I have talked about before about like, you know, if we, if we have a disagreement and I need to use the bathroom, that softens things, you know, like, it helps our marriage so much that. I mean, I was just at a conference for my disease and one of the parents asked a panel of us. You know, our daughter is becoming a teenager and she gets annoyed and doesn't like to be around us, and yet we have to do all of our caregiving. What do I do? And what myself and others on the panel responded with was, well, she doesn't want to be around you, but she's not a normal teenager that can lock her door for two days and you never see her. She's going to have to ask you for help. And you saying yes, and stepping into that need over and over for the next five or ten years, however long that attitude lasts, is they're going to be deposits, you know, and. And. And. And I would say. I didn't say this on that panel, but I would say in the midst of that, those deposits are going to soften her because of the vulnerability. And. And it's softened me over the years as a teenager with my parents, as an adult with roommates, you know, that you get in arguments with as an adult who's married and as a prideful, sinful man who, you know, it's like, no, I want my way. Oh, but we have to make dinner together now. You know, it's just really, really a wonderful gift from the Lord that we need each other. And it's a question of whether we're gonna unwrap that gift and enjoy it or we're gonna push away from it and go back to the old man. That, as you said, leads to death.

[C]

Because I think the enemy wants us to retreat. I think that really pleases him. And the church that I, you know, I. I always talk about Live Oaks Bible Church, we're just a congregation of the one church. Like, you know, the Bride of Christ isn't right here at 6900, you know, County Road 95 in Palm Harbor. This is just where my congregation is. The Bride of Christ is beautiful and, like, worth fighting for. So lessons in the negative are so harmful and so discouraging. Um, they really bring a lot of despair when you see how hurtful the church can be. But it really is a mirror of. Of how lovely, how beautiful, how wonderful, how redemptive. Like, if this is the church at its worst, like, it's just pointing to the church.

[A]

That's like how the book is, right? It's like, this is community at its best, and this is the counterpart. Yeah, I really like that. Well, this has been such an honor. I. Sorry, I just dumped my whole thing on you, but there we go. That's my need, and I just put it out for you.

[C]

There it is.

[A]

Never even met before at Tommy and all the people, the tens of thousands of People who just listen to me cry and there we go. I mean, maybe that's partially it. And I think there's really a lot of power in the book, the Hospitality of Need, I would love it. Tommy, we've never had anybody pray us out, so why don't you do that and really appreciate your time and appreciate what you wrote in this book.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Let me pray. Lord Jesus, I do thank you for the opportunity that you've given Kevin and I to write this book, but. And I'm glad that has been received as powerful. But we know the real power is you and the power, if we have it, to reach for, to ask for. It's in prayer. And God, we need you. That your church, Lord Jesus, your bride needs you. Continue your work in your bride, continue to work in your church. Make us to not only say what is right, but to live out what is right. And if this book can in any way serve that cause of just leading your church, to not take your name in vain, but wear your name as the beautiful name that it is, the powerful name that it is representing your heart, your character, your nature. Jesus, you are the God in the flesh who knelt down, who reached out, who embraced lepers and women of ill repute and even spent time with the religious and the nasty, and you chose tax collectors and fishermen. Your interaction here on earth, Lord Jesus, was messy and you saw the worst, but you also commended some of the best. And I pray for the three of us here, for Jenny and for Kevin, for myself and all the listeners, that we would know you rightly and we would represent you rightly. I'm praying right now, heavenly Father, that you would touch Jenny's heart and the heart of her family. They have experienced what is now known as a great opportunity for need. They need you and they need the church. They need one another. They need this community. They need you. They need you. So please heal, mend. When you are such a good and gentle surgeon. You bind up you. You cut out the cancerous and. And you. And you stitch up and you heal and you bless and you nourish. So I'm asking, Lord Jesus, that you bless and nourish Jenny and her five children, her husband, or their family, as they encourage people to live this out and. And live in your creation and experience the goodness of your creative hand and just be tender and be present and do what only. What only you can do. We thank you, Lord Jesus, what a. What a blessed conversation today. What a joy to be a part of this today. So thank you for the hospitality of this podcast and I pray for your glory and the joy of your people. In your name we pray. Amen.

[A]

Amen.

[C]

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