← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 660: The Brain Develops Through Movement and Touch | Kathryn Kraft, TimberNook
01:04:49
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Transcript103 lines
- [00:00]
Katherine Craft
Oh.
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Jenny Erich
It'S a beautiful world Ain't nothing on screen that's ever gonna beat this.
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Katherine Craft
View oh.
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Jenny Erich
It'S a beautiful world.
- [00:18]
Katherine Craft
And.
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Jenny Erich
I just wanna share with I just wanna share with you this beautiful world Such a beautiful world It's a beautiful world Such a beautiful world before we begin, I just want to say thank you for being here. The 1000 Hours Outside podcast exists because of listeners like you. People who believe that all of us benefit when life is lived more fully in the real world. If this podcast has encouraged you, one of the best ways you can support it is by leaving a review wherever you listen. I read them, they matter more than you think and they help others discover this message. You can also share your favorite episodes with a friend or family member. Every podcast app makes it easy to send an episode with just a tap, and that's how this message spreads person to person. Here's a review that came in earlier this month from the United States. I can't believe how many years I've actually been listening, sometimes daily and just now writing this review. I have learned so much life changing. My heart is so grateful and filled with so much love for you and your passion and I wish you many more successful years. You are a true gift to others and what a blessing to share so much knowledge and amazing books in such a fun, loving and emotional way. Never forget how many lives you have changed. Despite any challenges you have endured. I will continue to pray for you. Thank you for all the laughs and tears. I hope you and your family have a beautiful Christmas. Leave your review and I might read it during a future episode. And now on to even more fun. We have just released our 20261000 hours outside tracker sheets and they are absolutely stunning. They're designed to help you live a balanced life in a tech heavy age. Our free trackers support healthy physical, mental and emotional development and they turn ordinary days into memories worth keeping. You can find the brand new 2026 tracker sheets at 1000hoursoutside.com trackers. Go print yours out today and rope in a friend or two. And one more special note, we are celebrating 15 million podcast downloads and so you'll hear a brand new intro and outro song. It's called It's a Beautiful World. Now streaming. It's a collaboration between in paradise and our daughter's band, two better friends who sing harmony and play guitar in this song. The lyrics are some of my absolute favorite, so make sure you add this one to your playlist. Okay, let's get started.
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Katherine Craft
When the holidays Start to feel a bit repetitive.
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Jenny Erich
Reach for a Sprite Winter Spiced Cranberry.
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Katherine Craft
And put your twist on tradition.
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Jenny Erich
A bold cranberry and winter spice flavor Fusion Sprite Winter Spiced Cranberry is a.
- [02:59]
Katherine Craft
Refreshing way to shake things up. This sip and season and only for a limited time.
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Jenny Erich
Sprite obey your thirst. Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Erich. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and I am a huge fan of this program. It's called Timber Nook. We've had some different timber Nook providers on our podcast before from all over the world talking about different topics. And also the founder of Timbernook, Angela Hanscom, who wrote this book called Balanced and Barefoot that I think should be required reading for every teacher and parent. And it's been a day delightful and eye openening journey to talk with all these Timbernook providers because each program has similar elements, but they're also unique elements as well. And I just think it's a wonderful opportunity to bring back multi age play in an age when that has sort of dissipated. And so I have a Timbernut provider today from Wisconsin, Katherine Craft.
- [03:53]
Katherine Craft
Welcome. Thank you so much for having me, Jenny. I'm so excited to be here.
- [03:57]
Jenny Erich
All right, should we kick it off with the fact that you played hockey for the Badgers women's ice hockey team?
- [04:02]
Katherine Craft
Yeah, especially because you're from Michigan. So I don't know. And I'm originally from Ohio, so it was pretty fun to be able to leave Ohio, come to Wisconsin and then start in this rivalry Badger, you know, debate right from the start with my family with against the Buckeyes and all that stuff. So that's been pretty fun.
- [04:18]
Jenny Erich
So that was like something you started at what age?
- [04:20]
Katherine Craft
I started playing hockey when I was five years old. They tried to put me into figure skating, but that didn't work because I didn't understand why I had to spin in a circle and I couldn't play with the boys and get out and rough and tumble a little bit. So yeah, I started my journey in hockey at 5 years old.
- [04:37]
Jenny Erich
5. It is such a skill. Like my mom let us do ice skating lessons for a little bit, but I haven't done it with my own kids and I kind of feel bad about it because now they have these things. Maybe they've always been around and you just see them more because of social media, but they have these places where they make almost like these paths like you would go hiking on, but they make it so that you can go ice Skating on them.
- [04:58]
Katherine Craft
I didn't even know that.
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Jenny Erich
Isn't that incredible? Yeah, they have like these, you know, like winter sports complexes and you can go like on this one mile path through the woods, but on ice skates.
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Katherine Craft
Oh my gosh. I need to find though. So cool.
- [05:12]
Jenny Erich
So now I'm like, oh, wait, so that's just an incredible skill if you live in the north. And I, I interviewed a man one time from Canada and he talked about how ice skating is such a part of the culture there. And I think people who live in southern states are like, how in the world can you possibly get outside when it's so cold? Cold. But if you embrace some of these different winter activities, it opens up the door to a lot of really fun, exciting things to do.
- [05:33]
Katherine Craft
Definitely. I definitely think I'm a huge fan of there's no such thing as bad weather, just bad clothes. So as long as we're preparing for the elements, there's so much that you can do outside in all kinds of weather.
- [05:43]
Jenny Erich
Yeah, yeah. And you'd be good at it. Probably skate backwards and all of those different things. Okay, so tell us about your 501C3. It's called Live4. And then under Live4, you run TimberNet Pro programming. You are helping kids of all ages and all stages and kids who are differently abled and they're coming to these Timber Neck programs. But it's under Live for. Tell us about Live4.
- [06:05]
Katherine Craft
So I started Li4 back in 2011 when I was working for a children's hospital in Minnesota as a pediatric physical therapist. And there was one little boy I was working with that it was clear that he needed some help and some guidance to be able to move and to develop alongside his peers. But all of a sudden, insurance said, well, you're not delayed enough. And so the family was really. He was even a year old yet. And the family was really just trying to figure out how to help him. And if they weren't going to get therapy services anymore, they were just, you could just tell they were lost, they didn't know how to support their child. And I am a person that is really driven by injustice. Like, if something doesn't feel right in me, I. I'm driven to action. And so that's actually why I started the nonprofit because I really wanted to continue to serve him. I said, I'll come see you in your home, I'll come see you wherever it's important to you and your lifestyle. And let's figure out how to help him move a little bit. So that's how it started. And from there, we really grew to realize there's a lot of kids that are either in wheelchairs or they don't have the mobility as some of their peers, but they still want to move and play. They still want to get outside. And the typical therapy setting just isn't set up for that integration into the world that they want to live in. And so we started running some adaptive paddleboarding events where we just left the wheelchairs on the beach and got them on the paddle boards and went into open water. And I just really saw a change in the kids, just the confidence that they could do something, that they could overcome something they didn't always have to be in their equipment. And that really pushed us to become a 501c3 and just work one on one with kids, work in a bunch of different avenues. With the whole mission to be, let's break down any perceived barriers that might be there to get you to go confidently and whatever it is that you're dreaming of. And so that's how Live4 started. And then we can get into how Timber Nook fell underneath that too, if you will, if you'd like.
- [07:56]
Jenny Erich
Sure, sure. So this has been going on for a long time. You started in 2011, so it's been almost 15 years for Live4. And then part of what you offer is you have this Timber Nook programming.
- [08:06]
Katherine Craft
Yeah. So I started training in the schools in 2015, and once I was doing physical therapy in the school environment, I really started to see this disconnect of what we're expecting our kids to do and what's appropriate. And almost every classroom I went into, both people were frustrated. The teachers and the educators are frustrated. The kids are kind of going crazy. And it's just like, what's the missing link here? Like, why are these kids struggling so much in school more than they ever were before? And then a couple years later, I read Balanced and Barefoot and became a huge fan of Angela Hanscom. Because just like, you know, almost anything that she says or you read or just shaking your head out. Yes and yes, yes, yes. And so I agreed wholeheartedly with everything she had to say. Fast forward down the road to my own son. And I didn't even think about. And I don't even think at that time she had the provider training, but once I had my own son, all of a sudden, you know, when we go from a nature preschool to now, you have to go to school. I'm shaking my head no. I'm not ready for him to go to school. You know, he's just had this amazing experience in this nature program. Like what else can we do? So, so once I found out about the provider training and really looked at the mission behind Timbernook and the mission behind Live 4, it was perfectly aligned for us to be able to combine able bodied kids and neurotypical kids with kids that did do have physical mobility challenges and some neurodiversities. I'm like, how can we get this to really come together in this beautiful, authentic play outdoors? And so that's what we've been doing. We just started in July of 2025 trying to figure out the best way to get kids out into the woods with the programming that we've already offered, but under the Timbernook philosophy. And it's just been a truly magical journey to see the difference in the kids in the woods versus in the school because I'm blessed to see them in both environments.
- [09:56]
Jenny Erich
I had no idea. It seems so established and obviously live for is established. So you've been doing things for a long time, but even just to see the pictures of what you're doing, what you've done since this summer, what that's just like a beautiful, shocking thing. A cool, shocking thing that it's so new. You know, I've had an opportunity to talk to some different Timber Nook providers and they're just like wildly successful because this is so needed and there are so many kids and families in the different communities that need these programs. So I've seen pictures of it up and running, but it's just been in the past couple months.
- [10:30]
Katherine Craft
Yeah, so we went to training in the beginning of July. Katie Tredenick and I run it together. She's a physical therapist assistant. We came back and a week later we were up and running for that summer. And then since that we've run some Halloween programming. We're going to be running winter programming and now we're running tiny ones as well for the youngest of Timber Nook folks. So it's been a lot really quick, but it's been amazing to see the transformation that happens when kids are given the time in this space to create.
- [10:59]
Jenny Erich
Yeah, well, congrats to you.
- [11:01]
Katherine Craft
Yeah, congrats to you.
- [11:03]
Jenny Erich
What an incredible path. Okay, so then talk to us about the logistics. You want to make sure that this Timber Nook play is accessible to children with physical challenges. And you have kids that are coming that are in motorized wheelchairs. You have just different situations. And so this is available to kids to all come together and to have all of this play, you know, I've seen where you make sure that the materials are at certain levels so that they can be used by everyone. Can you talk through how you figure that out and what advice you would have to someone else who might be in a similar situation?
- [11:34]
Katherine Craft
Yeah, for sure. I think anytime we're getting kids coming into Timbernook, you know, they're always answering some medical questions. So a lot of the times since we just started, I know a lot of the kids that are coming in, and I know a lot of their medical conditions or they might have come to me because I was their provider. But even when we don't, we still go through the questionnaire that the families fill out. And no matter what their differences or challenges are, we're always trying to prepare the environment to make sure we can accommodate. So when there's a child that has any physical limitations, it's really no different than we would for the tiny ones that are coming out. We're like, okay, what height is their wheelchair? What's the width of their wheelchair? What is their traction like? And through that experience, we've realized the traction really became the limiting factor. So we're like, okay, we need to break that down. Because if their traction isn't able to get over the woods, but otherwise they'd be able to access everything, or their battery is dying because it's working so hard to go up and downhill, then we really need to get them a better wheelchair. And that's what really, really was helpful to partner with Accessibility Wisconsin to get their outdoor power wheelchairs that have incredible traction in the woods. And what I would say to anybody out there trying to do this, we are a very small nonprofit. Like our funding, we're always working to get donations and corporate sponsorships. We don't have a lot of funding, but it never hurts to pick up the phone and ask. There are so many community programs that exist that are willing to help each other out. And even if you don't think you have the dollars to support it, those community connections can really. We can really help each other. They can be very mutually beneficial. And that's what's been amazing with using the outdoor wheelchairs with Accessibility Wisconsin is that now we get to help each other out. When they need some help from physical therapists or with the kids in the programming that they're doing, we can jump on board and help volunteer. And if we need some chairs, we have the ability to reserve those as well. And the really cool thing about the chairs is that we always get more than is needed. So typically, developing children can also get into a chair. And it's not like the child that needs the chair is the only one in the chair. Isolated in that chair, it really becomes the coolest thing that's ever been at camp. The kids to be able to experience this awesome new piece of equipment, they don't see it as a limitation. They see it as something that enhances their play. So that's been really awesome. The other piece that I would say is just to really think about the Timbernook philosophy, because these kids, they've had to really advocate for help throughout their life. They've had to rely on other people in certain areas where they thought they had to rely on people. And in Timber Nook, we really push the independence of the child and problem solving and working together and not looking to an adult to solve their problems. So there have been many times where I've thought, oh, maybe we need to give them more equipment or more tools so they can access things because they're coming to ask for help, or they think that they're unable to get to a piece of equipment that they want. But just empowering them the same way you would any other kid to say, I wonder what you've tried. I'm curious if you've asked any friends yet. Like, I'm not sure what I would do. You know, I'll come back. I'm a little bit busy right now. I'll come back in a minute, but check on you in a little bit. So it's not in any way to discourage them or to frustrate them or to think that they're not supported, but it's to help them get over that hurdle of they probably don't need as much help as they think that they do.
- [15:04]
Jenny Erich
I would imagine that you've just seen incredible growth. It's always incredible growth for all children, you know, but in a. It's been a couple months, so you've been able to. To walk alongside these children and. And to, you know, to give them these opportunities to be part of the programming where they're in the woods for hours with all these other kids and just to see the growth. The story that I've told before is that I was at a Timbernook opening, like a weekly opening here in Michigan, and there was a little girl that just didn't participate, and she just kind of stood off to the side, and it's kind of for a long time. You know, they're there for hours a day, and so she didn't participate and she just observed. And then the very next day, I mean, she was running around with all the other kids, playing with all the other kids. And I just thought, wow, it's so incredible to have this opportunity up close to see the growth that and how quickly it can happen with these kids.
- [15:54]
Katherine Craft
I will say a couple of the kids with neurodiversities that have come in that have like a one on one para within the school setting that might have autism or something along those lines, that they think that they need to send somebody out to the woods. And most of the time I'm like, no, I think we've got it covered. We'll let you know if we need help. And some of them, it's been so amazing. The same story that you see where they're like asking for help or they're just sitting, they're bored, looking like they can't do anything. Then all of a sudden this one little boy, he was maybe four, goes to get a log. Like he decides he's going to build something and he goes to pick up the log and then drops the log and he's like, hey, anyone going to help me? You know, and then he goes again and he stops and he's like, well, I guess nobody's going to help me, so I'll just do it myself. And like you see him over and over rolling this log across like the whole length of the woods to get to the one spot that he wanted to build it. And in the begin, it is a little bit hard to not go help them. You know, especially as a mama heart, you know, you're like, oh, if that was my boy in the woods, I'd want him to feel loved and supported. But at the end, they're so much prouder than they would ever be if you went and helped them and you just see that change in them. And then the next time they don't even think to ask for help, they just go and build. And that I think is really amazing to see.
- [17:16]
Jenny Erich
Like they have an innate sense of their capability. Then they know that they can do it. I think part of what you might not expect is that these children have within them different desires that pop up. Like, I would like to go build a fort. So I'm going to move this log to that, that spot over there and get my fort going. We're so used to telling kids what to do and so it can almost be shocking, I think, to a degree when you step back and you're like, oh, wait a minute, these kids really have A lot of agency. So can we talk about some of the Timbernook way?
- [17:46]
Katherine Craft
The.
- [17:47]
Jenny Erich
The philosophies there? So you talk about authentic play, sensory, rich, time and space. The time and space where maybe we could kick it off there, because kids don't have either, you know, typical, typical, you know, in this day and age, they don't have time or space. Can you talk about what Timbernook offers in terms of both of those things?
- [18:08]
Katherine Craft
Yeah. So we always want to make sure that the kids understand that there's just two basic rules at Timbernook. The one that we dive into a lot is the different ways to be kind and what you're going to be kind to. But the one that's. Sometimes kids really have this challenge over in the opposite way that you would think is always make sure you can see an adult. Now, when we say that, we really mean it. We really mean make sure that you're in line. Line of sight for an adult. But that doesn't mean make sure the adult is right there. And so when we are stepping back and tuning in, we are being really critical to make sure we can either see or hear or both what's going on, so that if there starts to be some problems and challenges arrive, then we can intervene our little hummingbird approach when we need to, but then step back. But what I'm seeing happening is the kids aren't used to giving that freedom. And so they will come to us, they will come find us, and they will ask permission to do, you know, X, Y and Z. Can I move that tire to this spot over there? Or they might even say, what are we going to do next? Or can you. Can you tell me what a spot, what time it is? That's a big one. What time it is? Because they're so consumed with, like, they don't really know if they're allowed to do something. They don't know what to start. And this time factor becomes a really big thing with some of our kids that have OCD in the woods too. Because our answer is always, it's timber Nook time. So just we don't tell them what time it is. And sometimes we look and we do that purposely because we want them to be able to really get into their play and not worry that they have to hurry up, not worry that they. That they're going to have to have lunch soon. We really want them to be tuning into their bodies. We let them know and we create a time and space for lunch. But they also know that they're. They're able to go eat whenever they want to, and whenever they're hungry, we make sure they know. We will always let you know when it's time for something different. We will let you know when it's time to clean up. But we don't tell them the time on the clock. And so those are just some simple examples of how we really foster the way we communicate with kids. So they start having their own agency over how their day is going to go and they don't have to worry about a time constraint, for example. Wow.
- [20:19]
Jenny Erich
Isn't it interesting that as children, it's like they're. It's like they're being wired for productivity?
- [20:28]
Katherine Craft
Yes, that's a great way to say it. And that is a lot what it.
- [20:31]
Jenny Erich
Seems like, because as a kid, I remember there was probably a lot of time where I didn't know what time it was. Because you just existed.
- [20:39]
Katherine Craft
Yeah, that's right. And if it started to get dark, it was almost like, oh, shoot, I'm supposed to go home now. You know, like, you'd be surprised when it would get dark. And now they're just wanting to know, do I have time for this? Do I have time for that? And even the kids that really get into some elaborate builds, like this summer, they almost built an entire old school playground in our woods with see, like teeter totters and swings out of the material that we had. Even then in the beginning, they would feel rushed, like, oh, we can have enough time to do this because their, their build would fail and that would fail over and over and over again. But once they really started to see that we, it's okay to fail, that they have plenty of time. Like you mentioned earlier, they're out there for at minimum two hours. But most of our programming is four to six hours. And that time when they're bored and it's not filled by media or something quick for entertainment, it can feel like a really long time to a child that doesn't know what to do. But once they get into their build now it's like, oh, are we going to have enough time? Like, it's maybe too short, but most of the time there, it always comes out to finish their finished product, how they at least can use it, and they become happy with what they've created.
- [21:52]
Jenny Erich
That's such an interesting change, Catherine. Like, it's a small change. It matters a lot, but it's a small change that a lot of people might not know or notice. I've actually never heard of that or thought of that where these kids especially because so many have short recess that there probably is like this a little bit of frantic feeling when it comes to holiday gifting. I want to give things people genuinely love but beautiful, timeless pieces they'll wear for years. And that's why I'm going with Quince. From Mongolian cashmere sweaters to Italian wool coats, everything is premium quality at a price that actually makes sense. Quince truly has something for everyone. Their soft Mongolian cashmere sweaters start at just $50 and they look and feel like the designer pieces you see for $200 or more. They've got gorgeous silk tops and skirts for dressing up, perfectly cut denim for everyday life, and outerwear that actually keeps you warm without feeling bulky. And their Italian wool coats, oh my goodness, these are standout pieces. Beautifully tailored, soft to the touch and made to last for season after season. What I love most is that Quince works only with ethical, trusted factories and uses truly premium materials, yet their prices stay far below what you'd pay at other luxury brands. Personally, I've been reaching for my Quince cashmere non stop as the holidays get closer. The cashmere feels incredible, soft, structured and it doesn't pill. It is the kind of quality I normally expect from a 200 sweater, but not $50. Find gifts so good you'll want to keep them with quint. Go to quint.com outside for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q u I n c.com outside to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quint.com outside does anyone else feel like the holidays just showed up overnight? One minute we're picking pumpkins, in the next I'm looking around my house thinking wait, do we have enough guest towels? Where is the wreath from last year and who am I still missing gifts for if you are in that same last minute scramble? Wayfair has been such a lifesaver for us during this season. The holidays are here and you get what you need fast with Wayfair. From bedding and linens to decor for every room in the house, it is truly your one stop shop. We've been adding some final holiday touches to our home and I recently ordered a couple things from Wayfair. A beautiful neutral throw blanket for the living room and the sweetest little lamp for the kids reading nook. Everything came with fast free hassle free delivery and it all looked even better in person than online. It is amazing how one new piece can make your home feel warm, refreshed and ready for hosting. And if you're in the gifting mode, Wayfair really is the perfect place to shop for anyone on your list. Their selection is huge. Every style, every budget. And I keep finding things I didn't even realize they carried, like kitchen essentials, storage solutions, and seasonal decor. To get everyone in the holiday spirit, now is the time to get your home ready so you can actually enjoy the holidays with your family. And instead of running around trying to catch up, Wayfair truly has everything your home needs this season. Get last minute hosting, essentials, gifts for your loved ones and decor to celebrate the holidays. For way less, head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W A Y-F A I R.com Wayfair Every style, every home. I was at a nature center. It was last year, but I was there with a group of people and there was like a nature center where there's a tour guide. You know, like there was a bunch of kids there that were on a field trip. And so like I was there with a group and the kids were just playing at this play structure thing, like a, like a natural one. And then there was these field trip groups. And so the field trip groups, I always hate when I see it. It's like these kids have clipboards. I'm like, come on, you know, give them some freedom, you know. But these, these groups are going through with these guides that work there. And then, you know, at, at the very end, then they get basically let loose in this playground and you can see them just like kind of go wild because, you know, and can kind of feel that they just know they don't have that much time.
- [25:37]
Katherine Craft
Yeah, I would say in the school system, specifically the traditional school system, there are so many transitions and things change so often. Almost every 20 minutes, there's something different that they're having to change to. And the interesting thing, even when you mention recess or when they're finally let loose, is when it comes to free play for children, the first 15 to 20 minutes is almost always chaotic, no matter where you go. Universal cross play. And I know you're a fan of Peter Gray as well, and he's another one that really says, you know, it takes 45 minutes to an hour for kids to really even figure out what they want to do. Now it's a little bit different when you're on a playground structure because you don't even really have to think about what you're going to do because you're just, oh, I'M supposed to use this playground structure. And now, now this phase of me going wild is only going to last for the going wild phase while I'm running all over this playground equipment. And we never get to anything else after that. But even in the woods, you know, the first 15 to 20 minutes when they don't have something that's right there available for them to do, the chaos might look a little different. It might look like confusion, like uncertainty, or I'm going to take all these materials that I see available, even though I don't know what I want to do with them yet, because they just want to be able to have what's available to use. But even when that happens, you know, if you let them go to that 45 minute, almost an hour is always that sweet spot where now you see the child that might have taken all of the materials. Well, now they're setting up shop and they're realizing if I have all the materials, it's not really fun for me either. So what do you have to trade with me so that I can give you this material and I can get something in return? And that's really unique to too, I think in Timbernook to see where they're not forced to share and we just let it play out. I think there's a book out there too recently that you might have even mentioned on your podcast about it's okay not to share. And it's such an important lesson because when adults intervene too soon, the kids aren't even happy. Like they're not happy to have share be forced. They're not authentically being invited into play. But when they decide how to do that on their own, well, then they've both agreed to it and the rules now become their choice. And then so they're both engaged in it.
- [27:51]
Jenny Erich
Now, have you found, and I know this has only been since July, but have you found that? Because I think as adults are pretty frantic too. Like, I feel that, I feel that. What time is it? What time is it? What time is it? You know, going to the next thing or you have these time constraints as an adult, as a provider. Because I just think it's such a wonderful job. And I'm always saying, like, every community should have one of these and if, you know, especially it's like it's kind of a hard time to raise kids. Like things are expensive and if sometimes you're looking for something on the side and then you can bring your kids along and they can be a part of this wonderful program. Has it changed Your relationship with time as the adult.
- [28:32]
Katherine Craft
Yeah, I definitely would say that it has, I think even preparing for this podcast, right? Like, I've really had this huge moment of I just need to slow down. Like, I just need to slow down and breathe and be in the moment and be in an in the moment for every moment that it is always brings me so much more joy than worrying about the next thing that's going to happen. And I think kids are such great reminders of that because especially the toddler age and Even still my 8 year old, you know, when he's walking to school in the morning, my mind used to be, you got to get to school, you got to school, go to your friend's house. Like, I love that he walks to school and I love that he goes with his friends and he can go on his own. But there's sometimes that I would find myself peeking like, are they there yet? They're going to be late for school because they're kicking the rocks or they're drawing in the snow when it snowed a little bit the other day. But they're so present in that moment that really, Timber Nook has helped me step back and realize, okay, if they're late to school, does it even matter? I'm sorry to all the educators out there, but like, does it even matter if in the moments of getting there, they're experiencing these true connections with friends, they're starting to learn cause and effect of their actions. There's so much that we can learn by just slowing down that I think it really has helped me as a parent to be more connected with my son rather than goal oriented. Even when I didn't think I was goal oriented, Timber Nook has really helped me realize that I still was and that there's still time and space to slow down for adults as well.
- [30:07]
Jenny Erich
It reminded me of, and I've never connected these dots before, but, you know, we, we've talked a fair amount about the amount of time it takes to get into a play scheme. You know, 45 minutes to an hour. That's an Angela's book. Dr. Peter Gray talks about it. So it takes a while to get into our play schemes. And I have felt at times in my adult life, like, oh, especially when you have young kids and you don't have that much time autonomy. That's a phrase this woman Casey Davis uses, like, you don't have much time autonomy. So you get 20 minutes here, 25 minutes there, and maybe you squander it or it doesn't go very well. And then, like, for me, I'll be like, you know, I can't quite figure out what to do, and I'll get annoyed with myself. But this gives me a little bit of grace, you know, because it takes time. Like, and. And so when you're scheduling even time for your own self, like, if you're, you know, your kids are getting older and you want to have some. Some hobbies, or you like to read, or you like to sew, or you like to hike or. Or you like to. To ski or you like to whatever, bike it. Like, it's just a reminder, I think, that for all humans, it takes a little bit of time to get into something.
- [31:14]
Katherine Craft
Yeah, completely. And I would say even still, even though my son is a part of Timbernook, loves Timbernook, and went to nature school, even now, if I say, okay, let's go outside and we're gonna. We're just gonna be outside and see what happens, there is that hesitation and that resistance, and it is really easy. Especially as a single mom, he's. It's just me and him at home. He doesn't have any siblings. He's got friends in the neighborhood now, but nobody's outside playing. Even when we just want to initiate being outside, there's some grunts and grumbles. And that used to stop me in the. In the past. Like, well, it's not even worth it then. Like, I'm not going to fight through this. But even last night I told myself, well, I'm just going to go clean the garage. I don't know that I had to clean the garage, but it put me outside. Like, we're going to be outside. I'm not sure what you're going to do. I don't need to entertain you. You know, I didn't say that. But we're going to be outside together, and it's not a punishment. And we're just going to slow down and we're just. It's a really nice day. I'm going to clean the garage. You're welcome to help me if you want to, but if not, you can just play. And within that, you know, 30 minute didn't take like 30 minutes of him first just kind of literally sitting there, not doing anything or just fiddling with the logs we have in our yard. All of a sudden, you know, 30, 45 minutes later, I don't even know where he is. And we live in a very safe town, so it's okay. Like, I peeked around the corner and I saw him just playing up and down the street, he, you know, found a pumpkin. I think that was. Somebody was left out on the doorstep. And he was just rolling the pumpkin up and down the street. And then came back to me and had all these ideas of what can I do with this pumpkin? And do you think I can ask our neighbor if I can smash this pumpkin or I can dissect this pumpkin? You know, like, he really came up with something that I would have never set up for him. But he was all of a sudden into it and engaged because he had a plan in mind, even though he didn't even want to be there. And then we ended up staying outside past dark because he was into this pumpkin dissection. So I would really encourage parents to try to stay positive and calm about it. It doesn't need to be a punishment. It doesn't need to be frustrating. You don't even need to have an end goal in mind. You can even just take a book and pretend to read outside if you need to go outside so that your child will too. But the more you show that it's just okay to be here and not do anything, the more your kids will really start to get into it as well.
- [33:38]
Jenny Erich
It gives permission for all of us, I think, to know that you. It's like not human nature to just immediately be able to jump into something. And I used to kick myself for that because the windows of time, especially when you have like babies and things like the windows of time you have to yourself are so small. And I kind of always have chided myself for that. Like, oh, I should have used that time better. But we all need longer periods of time.
- [34:04]
Katherine Craft
We all do.
- [34:05]
Jenny Erich
If we can set aside, you know, depending on the age and stage of your kids. But if you can set aside little a little longer for yourself, then you might be able to really fall into your own play or hobbies. And for the kids, the pumpkin thing is really cool. I mean, what a simple, simple thing. I have been talking about this, but I finally watched the video. This is so silly. I should have watched it so long ago. But I finally watched the video that's on the Timber Nook page, an eight minute video. And they are rolling a pumpkin down a slide. And it's like a slide that's a loose part because it's not connected to anything. It's just like the slide part so kids can move it around.
- [34:40]
Katherine Craft
So that's a prized possession in the woods for sure. That's a great thing to have. Yeah.
- [34:45]
Jenny Erich
Which is garbage, right? I mean, it's like People are throwing out some play structure. And they had unattached the slide. So it's one of those curvy ones, plastic one. And the kids had moved it so it was on an incline. And they had put a pumpkin inside of a bucket. The bucket looked like it maybe had a little bit of soapy water in it. And then they were. They dumped the bucket with the pumpkin and the water to go down the slide. And an adult, an adult who has not read balanced in barefoot, you know, my myself X amount of years ago would have been like, that is really a waste of time. Or he's rolling a pumpkin down the sidewalk, he wants to smash it. That is a waste of time. He wants to dissect it. That's a waste of time. But you talk about one of the other premises of Timber Nook is that it is sensory rich. And so all of these things in nature. A pumpkin is a great example. We had a little baby over the other day that is nine or 10 months. And so anyway, it's like, well, I don't have a ton of baby toys left. I have one bin. But I was like, I have so many gourds. And then I just got all the cords. They're bumpy. They're different colors, they're different shapes. I was like, this is incredible. These are amazing toys for her. And. And she did. She played with them for a long time. They roll. You can pick them up. You can try and put them in your mouth. You know, they all have different feel, feel to them. So can you talk about that premise of Timber Nook and how.
- [36:06]
Katherine Craft
And.
- [36:06]
Jenny Erich
And also how you're adapting that for all kids? So you've got these sensory, this, the whole nature. Nature is a sensory environment, and it's worth kids time to roll pumpkins around.
- [36:18]
Katherine Craft
Yeah, for sure. So really, the brain develops through touch and movement. So without touch and that tactile sensation and without movement, like, we really are going to lack some of those, especially the lower brainstem development. So we really need kids to be experiencing the world through touch, because even creeping on their belly and crawling on hands and knees, even that helps with the emotional regulation down the road. So some of the times, even if babies are skipping the crawling phase, you might see that they have trouble with emotional regulation. And that all comes back to that lower brainstem development. So when we're thinking about in the woods and adapting it, the other part that we make sure of, that we haven't talked about yet, is making sure that we do have appropriate trained staff in the woods. Because there are some times where transfer, trained transfers are needed. And it is really important to be trained in a transfer. We don't expect a child to stay in their power wheelchair the whole time, just like we don't expect a kid to stay in their shoes the whole. They might want to go, you know, balanced and barefoot. They might want to go barefoot in the woods and take their shoes off. And so the kids that we work with, they also want to come out of their chairs. So not only do we have things on a height that's accessible from their chair, but instead of a table that you might, you know, be in a chair at or kneeling at, we make the tables really low to the ground so kids can just sit on the ground and sit on the floor if they're going to be doing an art project or something like that. And so we do want to make sure that when we're transferring a child to the floor that we're doing that safely. So we make sure we have trained staff for that. And the same thing for getting back into the chair or for any bathrooming breaks that they might need. But getting the child out of the chair and on the grass and really having that sensory rich experience is really helpful for that brain development. One of them that I'm thinking now that we're talking about the table is messy play. So, so many times you will see paint that's out in a classroom, but it has to be the paintbrush. The water, like the paint, only needs to touch the paintbrush and you need to clean it off when you're done. Where at Timber Nook, we might not even have enough paint brushes for everybody to use. And so they're using their hands, they're diving in, they're spreading it everywhere. They might be dumping that paint all over themselves and making war paint or whatever it is. But if. If kids in the brain with childhood development doesn't have that time to experience all different kinds of touch, they don't know how to use the right kind of force, right? So if they're not used to light touch, if they're not used to deep touch or a variety of touch, or picking up and putting down different weights of objects, then when they go to tag a friend when they're playing, they might smack the friend. They get yelled at and they don't even know why they're in trouble because they don't even understand that they just hit somebody because they're just trying to touch them, right? Even the same thing with handwriting. You can see some kids that really are like, ripping the paper because they haven't had enough experience with touch so that their hands can even hold a pencil with the right force. So those are just some examples of that tactile sensory system that is really helpful for development.
- [39:11]
Jenny Erich
I saw a video just recently, and I'm pretty sure it was a timbernick video. And it was paint day. And it was like this little girl, and she had a paintbrush, and, I mean, the paint was everywhere. And she was, like, grabbing the end of the paintbrush, like, dripping it on her fingers. And you just see, like, the concentration. It was a little girl, like, young, you know, the concentration. And you can tell her she's fully engaged. And I think when you watch it, it get. It's just such a reminder of the value that's in all of these experiences for kids, even though to an adult, they may seem frivolous. So the last. One of the last tenants of the Timbernook Way is this authentic play you say we often hear. And this is part of the. The messaging, like, everyone's hearing. This is the most fun ever, you know, and. And the kids get to bring their best ideas and. And they get to drive it. They get to drive it, and it's not adult led. And you can see, like, the things you've already talked about how it's so important for them. They figure out what to do. Your son figured out what to do. The little boy figured out how to get the log from one side to the other. He learned that he was capable and that those things they learn about themselves in these younger years, they carry a lot of weight moving forward. So I would love to talk a little bit about Peter Gray since we're both fans.
- [40:21]
Katherine Craft
Yes, huge fan.
- [40:22]
Jenny Erich
And his book Free to Learn is another one of those kind of core. I like. There's like a core five books for me. It's Balance and Barefoot. Carla Hannaford, Smart Moves. Peter Gray, Free to Learn. Those would be my top three. I also really like read aloud revival by Sarah McKenzie. And I don't know. So I'm like, I throw in a fifth. Like, I like. There's no such thing as bad weather. You know, there's different ones. Sometimes I play around with the fifth one, but that Free to Learn is in my. Really my top three. And one of the things that Peter Gray says is that every 10 years, kids have less time to play than they did the previous 10 years. So we started at a similar time, Catherine, in 2011, is when we moved away from a lot of adult structured activities. It's because someone told me about this woman named Charlotte Mason who said kids should be outside for four to six hours a day. And I didn't really have any understanding of why. I didn't know that Charlotte Mason was like, old fashioned and has died a long time ago. I didn't know that. And so. But I tried it and I saw the incredible benefits. Really just for myself, like, yes, a person as an adult, as a mother, I was like, oh, this day was a little easier than any of the other days I've tried. So we were hooked back in 2011, and I started writing in 2013. So just a couple of years after you started Live for. And you just think, oh, maybe I'll be obsolete pretty soon because this is. There's books written about this. I mean, at this point, Catherine, I have stacks of books that are basically like, kids should play. That's like the basic premise. Yeah, they should play. You shouldn't direct it. They should be able to play with natural items. That's it. Give them time to play. And here's hoping, here's research, research, research. This is good for their eyesight, this is good for their joints. This is good for their mental health. This is good for their cognition. I mean, this is good for all these things. And yet I would tend to agree. Every 10 years, kids have less time to play than they did the previous 10 years. Can you talk about what you've seen?
- [42:16]
Katherine Craft
Yeah, for sure. I. One of the things that is really important to me is connecting with parents and really giving them a safe space to be vulnerable and say what the challenge is, because I feel the challenges every day too. And I think if we don't open up to like, yes, we know all this research, but I'm really busy and I work this amount of hours and my kid goes to this practice and so, like, I don't know what to do, you know? And so I think that taking away some of the shame of feeling like I just don't have the time and effort to put into this because I'm overwhelmed, I think is the first thing we need to do. Like, our mental health is so important. And that connection piece can really open up doors. For example, in our neighborhood, the kids that my son walks with, like, they're both single parents as well. And we've wanted to have this, like, free to learn mentality. We've wanted to push our kids out there. But then there's also the fear of judgment. Our kids are only eight, nine years old, right? So in some towns, you see an 89 year old walking by themselves like that might be a reason to call the, to call the cops and see are they being neglected, are they being cared for? And really parents do know their child really well. They do know when they're ready. Most of the parents have scaffolded, right? They've, they've helped just enough until they can step back. But they're not talking about this, they're not sharing this for fear of shame. Just like the other end of the spectrum of not letting their kids do it. They feel like that's what they're supposed to be doing as well. They're supposed to be producing children's that meet these goals and have these outcomes and they're on these sports teams. And I think we really do need to meet in the middle and say, hey, here's our real challenges. What if on Thursdays, like I'm available for the kids to come to my house? Like they can come to my house, I'll have snacks. Like they can stay for however long they want, they can play outside, they can be together and you know, I don't need any money from anybody. They can just be here and maybe the next day you help. Right. I think just having the freedom to say, say what is true for parents is really helpful because everybody is starting to feel and believe this in my neighborhood. They just don't know how to get there. And it, and it might be similar across the country. Like how do we get over that hurdle of we're so busy, we're so stressed, we don't have enough time or help. And I think that is a huge piece to what I'm trying to advocate for because I really want at the end of the day for kids that come to Timber Nook to go back into their neighborhoods and bring what they've learned into their own, own neighborhood, in their own play. And once you start seeing more and more kids outside, you're not going to feel stressed or worried about it anymore because kids do kind of have each other's backs. Once you know your neighbors, you'll realize your neighbors are watching out for you again and they're not like strangers like we're all afraid of these days. I think that is a huge piece to get to the point where we're not just advocating anymore and it's happening. Let's bring your parents together and let's give them a safe space to share and problem solve.
- [45:14]
Jenny Erich
Oh, that's really astute. So what you're seeing is that the message is out. The message is out and Parents are bought in. They're, they're learning and they, you know, because this is something we didn't have to learn about before, but now we have to learn about it because there's a lot of things competing for kids time. So it's important to know why rolling a pumpkin down the road actually matters and has value to it. So, so parents got the message. They're bought in. It's really that hurdle of getting it back to being a norm, a societal norm. And so when people see kids playing outside and they haven't seen kids playing outside for 20 years, then people are like, well, where's the parent?
- [45:49]
Katherine Craft
Exactly. I think that's a huge part of it.
- [45:52]
Jenny Erich
Yeah, there's a lot of hurdles there because Peter Gray talks about he was outside by himself when he was 4. So, you know, 8, you're like, well, that's twice as old because certainly that should be fine. Or nine. But that's what happened to Lenore Skin Easy. Her kid was on the subway and she got called, called and then called, you know, someone called on her and then they called her America's worst mom.
- [46:11]
Katherine Craft
I know.
- [46:11]
Jenny Erich
America's worst mom.
- [46:14]
Katherine Craft
I, I love her so much and hearing her, I'm so proud that she's been so brave to share her story and continues to advocate through Let Grow. Let Grow is another huge movement that I think can be really helpful. And that's one thing that we're trying to do with Timber Nook too, is to be a place where there can be after school program, to be a place, you know, if we can get into the space. School is wonderful. But if there's a place where after school, whether it's through Let Grow or a timbernook programming, that you can send your kids where you know that they're safe, where you know that they're with other kids and they're still getting that freedom of play, I think that would really open up doors for a lot of parents because most parents aren't even done working by the time school lets out. So they need to find somewhere for them to go. And if we can create that within our own neighborhoods, I think the world would change.
- [46:57]
Jenny Erich
I think so too. Like if there was one. I always say one in every county, but you know, it's like, yeah, one in every school. Like one that's connected with every neighborhood. Elementary school, there's enough kids that would utilize that and, and would need that. And then to your point, what happens is then they take those skills that they're learning because they are skills they're skills of learning how to deal with boredom, of how to be creative, of how to come up with something out of nothing, of how to get along with other kids. They take those skills back to their neighborhood.
- [47:25]
Katherine Craft
Yes, for sure.
- [47:25]
Jenny Erich
And it enhances everything. So if you're listening, I'm become a provider. You know, I have got. I'm like, not affiliated. I certain like Angela and I certainly love the book. I'm not affiliated. But I. I so believe in the power of it. And I've gotten to see it firsthand and I've gotten to come and meet a bunch of the providers and just talk to so many of them. And I love, like you said, now we're doing tiny ones. I love it. There's flexibility in it. Depending on what your schedule is. Do you want to do things that are after school? Do you want to do things during the day? Can you do once a week? Can you do summer programs? Like, there's just a lot of flexibility there. And in a world where there's not a lot of flexibility, flexibility in a lot of types of careers. So the people I talked to recently, Catherine, they were like, good friends. They're from Australia. And so they. It was. Their names are Jess and Adele. And they were good friends with each other. And they started at Tibbernook. And I was like, wonderful. In what other aspect in life can you be like, hey, we're really good friends.
- [48:24]
Katherine Craft
Let's go work together? Yeah. Yeah. I think it's beautiful. And one of the things that I am a big advocate for for now is to get teachers on board because teachers are so used to, you know, don't take risks, don't get hurt. You know, follow the rules. That's how it has to be. But recently at the Timbernook conference, we played as the adult providers to get back into that play. We played capture the flag. And it was really awesome and amazing to be a kid again, to play again and then come back together and say, you know what? We should do a staff training day for teachers where the teachers come and they experience Timbernook play. And then, you know, I feel like that would open the door for so many people to realize the power of Timbernook. And now it is even making me think, oh, maybe that's our next, like, mom group right in the neighborhood. Maybe we. We meet with all the moms to come play capture the flag and just show how meaningful play is of all ages and how important it is and to really be able to trust that you have a community of people People that they're like minded that you want to spend time with and you can create these opportunities because there are many moms out there that don't have a PT or an OT background that can go to training. They can learn it. You really have to. It does really take a special skill and you really have to be able to tune into different types of play that are happening and trust the kids. And that's probably the biggest learning curve of becoming a Timbernook provider is trusting that it's okay to trust the kids and recognizing when risky play crosses the board, the border of being unsafe and when it's risky play is good and healthy for kids. And so the more teachers and parents that can learn about it and become providers and just cover the globe, I think the better.
- [50:06]
Jenny Erich
What a cool thing. I missed that I didn't come the year that everybody play catch of the flag. I talked to this woman once named Katie Bowman. I've actually talked to her a couple times. She is founder of this thing called Nutritious Movement and she is a biomechanist. And so she talks a lot about all of these things. The, you know, the kids play in their thoracic containers and when they're hanging and it's helping their shoulder girdle in their finger structure and you know these things that we're talking about. Peter Gray talked about how play is learning and it's helping in so many different facets. But I asked her because I went to this place in Tennessee where I was with my kids and they had this like blow up water playground thing and it was huge, like so big. It was like, I don't even know how to estimate but it like it was just all these things in the water, like this water obstacle course that was very big. You know, maybe there's like hundreds of people out there. So I go out with my kids and I was like, I can't even move. I like I, I can't, like I cannot keep my body upright. Like they go running off. Like I'm like this is really slippery. You know, I'm falling so then I'm crawling along. And it's a reminder of the skill sets that kids do have. I'm like, they are much more advanced at me than me physically to be able to run through this obstacle course. So then I asked Katie Bowman about it and I was like, look, I was like, how could I get better at it again? Like I've clearly lost my skills. And she talked about the fast twitch muscles and how if you can play Kids games, like even the game where you bop the balloon up in the air and try and keep the balloon up in the air. She's like, actually, that will help you so much with your body movement. And I talked to these people who own this program in, in Europe where they. Within the community, they bring in all ages, but I think it's focused even on the elderly. And they will do things like play capture the flag with them because they say, like, you have to learn how to. You have to know how to fall well and you have to, you know, this is helping with all of their balance. So I guess to your point about like playing capture the flag with teachers or playing with your mom group, all these things really would be so valuable for so many reasons to continue on through adulthood.
- [52:13]
Katherine Craft
Yeah, I would agree with that. The physical therapist sent me, you know, is just always wanting everybody to move all the time because I. Not only is movement important for brain development like we've talked about, but as we get older, yes, for sure, our elasticity and our muscles go down. Even for me, who was a previous athlete, and I'm just used to being able to be. Be active. After I played capture the flag the next day, my legs were so sore, you know, I didn't think. I barely did anything in that half an hour hour of play because I were sneaking. We're spying. Sometimes we're sprinting, sometimes we're not. But my whole body felt it the next day and it was just a huge reminder, man, if we don't move, we're going to really lose it. It's the same use it or lose it mentality. But a lot of times it's not fun as adults to go to a gym and work out. Right. These things aren't fun. They're not fulfilling to us. And it's another barrier to get there to pay for it. But even just bringing back adult fun activity play, like you mentioned, is really good for the body because it keeps your muscles loose, it keeps your elasticity up, it keeps your muscles strong. And really, as we're getting older, like, our strength and our flexibility is what's going to help protect our bones and be able to catch ourselves and not break something if we do trip and fall.
- [53:24]
Jenny Erich
Yeah, they were teaching how to fall. The program is called we are Wild Strong. You think it's interesting, I'm going to shoot it over to you. Because they're basically doing timber nook, but it's not as long and it's more directed. Like they definitely have games and things that are Adult directed. But they, it's basically like for adults and, and it's just so incredible for building the community for people to make actual friendships because you're engaging in different ways and then along the way they are moving their bodies in ways they wouldn't have otherwise. And they are motivated because they're. There's a game element to it. And so they want to win or they want to race and, and they really specifically teach falling and how to kind of like loosen your body up and. And also different things like hanging from a limb. You know, how nature basically is a gym.
- [54:09]
Katherine Craft
Yeah, for sure. Like, we're like, we were not allowed to go upside down on the playground anymore. Right. But we really need kids to go upside down. It just reminds me too of all the mental health benefits that are going to, to come from that. You know, bringing people together to move also is going to release endorphins so that we're not as anxious and we're not as stressed or hurried and rushed from one place another. So. That program sounds amazing.
- [54:32]
Jenny Erich
Yeah, I loved it. I, you know, I think that they've expanded similar to Timber Nook. They've expanded because there's a need for it and it really makes a difference. A couple other Peter Gray quotes that you have posted that I really like. Free play is the means by which children learn to make friends, overcome their fears, solve their own problems, and generally take control. I mean, even if you were to break that down, Catherine, into those just four little things, you know, you read it as a sentence and you're like, okay. But you're like, wait, no, wait. This is how they learn how to make friends. I just talked to this mom. She wrote a book called Queen Bees and Wannabes and it was the basis for the Mean Girls movie about all the girls and the clicks and like all the social dynamics, the complex social dynamics. Similar for boys too, she said. They have a social dynamics too that are also really complicated. So the ability to make friends, that Heather Shoemaker, that book it's okay not to Share, is such a powerful book. So it, it's not easy to learn how to make friends.
- [55:26]
Katherine Craft
No. You know, and that really reminds me too of Joel Hanscom. Like, we were so lucky to have Joel be able to talk at the conference. And just to see as a child growing up through Timbernook, like, what has that changed for you as a now, you know, adult? Go into her sophomore year in college and really she talked a lot about that. Like, people don't know how to communicate anymore. Kids don't know how to talk to each other. Like that face to face interaction is just going away and play through the timber nook way or all these different ways that you're going to play really is going to build on that communication. There's going to be problems. Play is always going to have problems. It's really a mimic for real life, right? You have a group of people coming together that you might not know. They're not all your friends. They're the only ones available to play with. So we're going to have to really figure some things out here and there's not a lot of resources that are out here. So we're going to also have to figure out how to share that. But just like Peter Gray says, like in an organized game of baseball that's so different with the skill development and the rules and the competitiveness and like the lack of empathy because you want to win compared to a neighborhood game when you might have to change how you pitch for the little boy, that that's up to bat, you might have to show a little bit more of empathy. If somebody gets hurt because you don't want to lose that player, you don't want them to get hurt because you'll also not have enough people to play. Right. There's all these other dynamics that go into it that really are just a parallel for real life. And what we really want in our kids these days are resilient kind problem solver solvers and thinkers. Because we don't know what the jobs of the futures are going to be. We don't need to teach them skills like mathematics even sometimes because there's a calculator, there's a computer, there's something to figure that out. But we really do need to teach emotional intelligence. We really need to teach some empathy and some, you know, those character building skills and all of that can come out in play when adults don't intervene.
- [57:20]
Jenny Erich
Oh, we are so on the same page. It's interesting because I've been using the phrase jobs of the future and I think a lot of people are, you know, the. There's this man, Kim Jong Un Payne, who talked about how in 2030, 75% of people will be entrepreneurs or they'll have several jobs that they're juggling and all of a sudden it's like, ooh, that's not really the future. You know, that's kind of now.
- [57:41]
Katherine Craft
Ish.
- [57:42]
Jenny Erich
We've got a friend of the family that lost his job and a lot of people are losing their jobs, especially the white Collar jobs, the ones that cost the companies a lot of money and are being replaced with AI. And he has put out over a thousand applications, Catherine and I. I'm pretty sure what he said is he hasn't even gotten one interview.
- [58:02]
Katherine Craft
Oh my gosh.
- [58:03]
Jenny Erich
So when you talk about the jobs of the future, it's really like kind of where we're at right now. And so these skills that Dr. Peter Gray talks about, learning to make friends, overcoming fears, solving problems, taking control of their own situation, you can just see how these are really needed. They're needed now and they're going to continue to be needed. Children need Play. This is Dr. Peter Gray. They need play to develop. Well, it is not a luxury. It's not something that we should regard as research, recess or break from learning, because it is learning. Can you talk about what your actual program. So you're in South Central Wisconsin?
- [58:38]
Katherine Craft
Yeah, so our program runs out. It's in Sauk City in Wisconsin. And so we really connect with the Madison area as well. So that's one of the bigger cities around us. So there's multiple cities that circle around Sauk City that we really try to pull into right now, the school schedule as much as we can. So we're really trying to pull into those school breaks and those after school times even for next year. So we can really hit as many communities as possible. We're in a beautiful setting. We're so lucky to be on some private property. It's really as a privately owned vineyard that sits on top of this really beautiful hill and they have a stage on top where sometimes they run music. But then behind, down the hill behind it is just over 40 acres of land that they've been so gracious to let us use their space and their in their woods. And so we do try to curate the land as much as we can without taking away any of the natural elements. Not only to be accessible by foot and by chair, but just to make sure that that underbrush is nice and cleared out. But as we continue to grow and go into the woods more, it is really fun and exciting to see the kids get a little bit braver to truly be in the thick of the woods. Because in the beginning they were really trying to come out to that flat space a little bit. So we're really excited to expand deeper into the woods. We really have a need for that. Just with the kids that keep coming back and what we see that them, they want and they need. And so we would love for anybody to, to, you know, come check us Out. You can check us out on our website@liveboard.com you can find us on the Timber Nook website. But nowadays when you just Google search those two words, it'll come right up.
- [60:16]
Jenny Erich
All right, all right. And kids keep coming back, which means it's highly successful since it's only been going on since July. And so they, they love it and, and they come back and your program can grow quickly and just. I think it answers so many things. So I'll make sure that those links are in the show notes so people can find them. If you live in the south central Wisconsin area, you talk about Dane County, Columbia county, and is it pronounced Sock? S a UK Sock counties, yes. To be immersed in the beauty of Wisconsin's countryside, come together and build your own imaginative world using natural and loose part materials. So a wonderful opportunity. You and Katie. I've been working, it's. Catherine and Katie have been working together with children for over 15 years. Working with children for over 15 years. Not that you've been working together that whole time. Or maybe you have been. Have you been working together though?
- [61:04]
Katherine Craft
We've been together about 11 years now.
- [61:07]
Jenny Erich
That's so fantastic. So working together. If you want to start your own Timber Nook program, just grab your friend, you know, and you guys, so you can, you can start one together. They really do provide excellent training. And Angela walks you through the whole thing to get it set up. Catherine, thanks for being here. Thanks for sharing your story. Thanks for telling what, what you're doing to include all kids. So helping them come in if they're in their wheelchairs or if they have autism or if they have any type of struggle, you know, you're helping to give them a place to come into play and to be out into the, out in the woods and learn and grow. It's really inspiring. And I always love hearing about the different Timbernook programs that each have their own little flair to them, you know.
- [61:44]
Katherine Craft
Yes, it is so exciting.
- [61:46]
Jenny Erich
A lot of similarities, but they, but they're also unique as well. We always end our show with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood that was. Was outside?
- [61:54]
Katherine Craft
Oh, my family. The one that comes to mind right away is my family used to go camping a lot growing up and we used to stay local for most of our camping experiences, which I loved. But one time it felt really fancy that we traveled up to Canada to go camping. And I remember there was these cliffs and in my mind they're like these huge cliffs that you would never let your children jump off of today that goes into a body of water. But I remember my brother just being so excited to jump off that cliff, fearless into the water below him. And then when he climbed back up and I was sort of interested but sort of scared, he was giving me, like, the physics of how far up out or how far out I need to jump to avoid the rock that's beneath how fast I might need to run, what rock to jump off of to get in there. And I just remember we jumped off that cliff over and over, over and over again into the water, climbed back up again because it was just so fun and exhilarating, and I'm so thankful that I had a mom that let me do it. But most of the time, when I think about outdoor play when I'm. When I was a kid, it did involve something risky, and it was amazing.
- [63:02]
Jenny Erich
And you just see the brilliance in that of knowing where and when to jump and how far out you got to pay attention. Yeah. And then you're climbing back up. So it's using all those large muscle groups. Wow. And. And no matter where you're at, there's just different elements in nature. It's the. It's its own gym that can help to challenge you and challenge your kids. Katherine, thank you so much for your time.
- [63:21]
Katherine Craft
Thank you, Jenny. It was wonderful.
- [63:26]
Jenny Erich
As we wrap up today, I just want to say thank you for listening. If you enjoy this episode, please take a minute to leave a review or share it with a friend. That's how this message travels and our 1000 hours outside 2026 tracker sheets just launched. They are available now. They are free, and they are to help families like yours move from good intentions to actual time outside and to notice what changes along the way. You can find the Tracker sheets at 1000hours outside.comTrackers I'm so honored we spent a little time together today. I'm glad you're here. May you find extraordinary moments on ordinary paths. Get outside open your eyes Feel that sunshine kissing your skin don't throw your worries out to the wind Climb some trees Skin your knees Feel that grass on your feet again get out there and take it in.
- [64:23]
Katherine Craft
Oh, it's a beautiful world Ain't nothing on the screen that's ever gonna beat this view oh, it's a beautiful world.
- [64:41]
Jenny Erich
And I just want to share with I just want to share with you this beautiful world Such a beautiful world. And, Doug, here we have the limu emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds.
- [65:03]
Katherine Craft
With Liberty Mobile Mutual.
- [65:06]
Jenny Erich
Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug Limu. Is that guy with the binoculars watching us?
- [65:13]
Katherine Craft
Cut the camera.
- [65:14]
Jenny Erich
They see us.
- [65:15]
Katherine Craft
Only pay for what you need@liberty mutual.com.
- [65:20]
Jenny Erich
Savings very unwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts. Hey, Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. You know one of the perks about having four kids that you know about is actually getting a direct line to.
- [65:30]
Katherine Craft
To the big man up north.
- [65:31]
Jenny Erich
And this year he wants you to know the best gift that you can give someone is the gift of Mint Mobile's unlimited wireless for $15 a month. Now you don't even need to wrap it. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment.
- [65:44]
Katherine Craft
Of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month. Required new customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes if network's busy. Taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com.