← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 663: Childhood Without Free Play Is a Health Crisis | Rusty Keeler, Adventures in Risky Play
01:01:39
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- [00:00]
Narrator
Oh, it's a beautiful world Ain't nothing on screen that's ever gonna be this view.
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Rusty Keeler
Oh.
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Narrator
It'S a beautiful world and I just want to share with I just want to share with you this beautiful world Such a beautiful.
- [00:33]
Podcast Host (possibly a producer or announcer)
Before we begin, I want to say thank you for being here. The 1000 Hours Outside podcast exists because of listeners just like you, people who believe childhood, family life, and adulthood are richer when we stay connected to the real world. Today's conversation is an important one. I'm talking with a playground designer named Rusty Keiller who has spent more than 25 years shaping outdoor play environments for children all over the world. We talk about why childhood without free play has quietly become a health crisis and what it looks like to create spaces and that know how to say yes to play. This episode might shift how you see playgrounds, backyards, and even childhood itself. If this podcast has encouraged you in any way, one of the simplest and most meaningful ways to support it is by leaving a review wherever you listen. I read them and they give me a lot of encouragement. They matter more than you think and they help this message reach families who are looking for something quieter, slower, healthier and more grounded. You can also share an episode with a friend. Every podcast app makes it easy and that personal share is how this community keeps growing. Now for a few things I'm really excited about. We have just released our free 20261000 hours outside tracker sheets and they are stunning. These trackers are designed to help you move from good intentions to actual time outside and to notice all the benefits you gain when you do. You can grab yours today at 1000hours outside.com trackers and even print an extra set to share with a friend. They're free and starting today, something special is live. The 1000 hours outside mega bundle. For just $25 you get over 450 outdoor friendly activities across 85 units. Everything from simple nature prompts to deeper creativity building experiences. And it includes the 1000 hours outside kickoff pack. The Mega Bundle is available now through January 12th and the link is waiting for you in the show notes. Okay, let's get started with today's episode.
- [02:24]
Sponsor Voice
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- [02:54]
Jenny Eric
Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Eric. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and I read an incredible book just so perfect for this audience. It is called Adventures in Risky Play. What is your. Yes, the author, Rusty Keeler is here. Welcome Rusty.
- [03:09]
Rusty Keeler
Yay. Thank you. Glad to be here.
- [03:11]
Jenny Eric
You've got a really cool backstory and I would love for people to hear about it. You have been working with schools and child care centers to create natural playscapes in outdoor environments for 20 over 25 years. Can you tell us about your career?
- [03:25]
Rusty Keeler
Yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah. No, I love it. Work with folks to reimagine what, what outdoor spaces for play and learning and connecting to nature could be. And so, you know, I come at it from the design end of things. Not educator. I'm a parent now. But I started off as an industrial designer and my first job out of college was playground equipment. And that's where I learned about play, the beauty of play, the importance of play, different types of play. And then how as an adult and a designer, you can design for for different types of plays. So social play development, intellectual development, emotional development, physical development. And that is not just all blowing off steam. It is learning and growth and becoming. I then worked at a sister company in the Netherlands in Europe, and my head exploded. My ideas shifted. I saw lots more one of a kind play spaces. I saw more like public art that you could climb on and interactive fountains, more community built play spaces and more natural play spaces where every kindergarten or school I visited, they might have their monkey bars and play equipment, but they also had like a scrubby bushes or berry bushes that kids could pick berries or hide in, or a hill that you could roll down or trees and just kind of more rough and tumble. And I kind of. The light bulb went off and I was like, oh my gosh. Yeah, it's not just about equipment. You know, I was focused as a designer on the equipment, but it was like wait, the whole environment. Then I started remembering my own childhood. Think about where I played upstate New York, roaming and ranging in fields behind my house all seasons of the year, you know, coming in contact with, you know, snakes and squirrels and wintertime and picking cherries and you know, spring and everything and, and realize how, you know, remembered how important that was for my growth and development of who I was. And then thinking about, oh well, wow, maybe children's environments could be more that than just equipment based. What if what if childcare centers and backyards and were designed to connect kids to the deep stuff, the natural world?
- [05:41]
Jenny Eric
That's so interesting, Rusty, because, you know, obviously we typically talk to educators or occupational therapists or people that are coming at it from a different angle. And we've never talked to anyone who actually is designing the play spaces. And so you are the one that is really helping facilitate so many childhoods. It's kind of wild to think I should have thought about it, but I've never really thought about, like, well, who's behind the scenes on designing this type of a playground? Is it an architecture degree?
- [06:14]
Rusty Keeler
I mean, you could come at it from architecture. I came at it from industrial design, which is like product design. So anything like the microphone, the headphones that you're wearing, you know, the chair, you know, your car, your phone, somebody designed that. And same with play equipment. There was somebody that thought about, you know, the monkey bars and the soft surface and. And, you know, the. The structure of it. But then also it's also kind of landscape. So I kind of stepped from product, you know, stuff to more the landscape, more the whole environment and thinking about plants and seasons and natural materials and kind of mixing and matching.
- [06:54]
Jenny Eric
Yeah, okay. So if there's such a wide range.
- [06:56]
Podcast Host (possibly a producer or announcer)
Right.
- [06:56]
Jenny Eric
You're like, basically every single thing has been designed. Everything is a product design. You know, like, if I look around the room that I'm in, I've got bookshelves and, you know, there's probably 60 things in this room that's been designed. How did you end up choosing playgrounds?
- [07:11]
Rusty Keeler
Yeah, you know, I was just fresh out of college, and at that time it was like, go west, young man. Find yourself. So I went to Pacific Northwest, Seattle, and actually I had my portfolio, and I just started interviewing all over the place. And, you know, Boeing is there. So I interviewed an airplane place and sports equipment and, you know, all these different places. And then. But this job had opened up at this company called Big Toys in Olympia, Washington, and it was a very interesting time because they had just got bought out by this big Danish company, Kompan, and they wanted to do this whole new line of equipment. They were going to put money behind it. They wanted it to be based very purely on play and development. They just needed someone to come think of ideas. So there I was. Yeah, I was. There it was with my portfolio and, yeah, landed this great job. That was, yeah, really exciting.
- [08:08]
Jenny Eric
Oh, okay. So, you know, I've got kids. That makes sense, right? Yeah, we got five kids. The oldest one is 17 and I feel like within his childhood childhood, the compound play structure started like we're out in Michigan. They started to get installed. So there's one at this place called Kensington Metro park that's near us and it's like this really cool park. You can feed birds out of your hand. People get mad, but people have been doing it there for like decades. The songbirds will come eat out of your hands there. There's all these trails that you can do it on. And they've got this beachfront in another area that has one of those. And I remember when they put it in and I'd never seen anything like it. It's like ropes, ropes going every which way in like little hammock things. And I just thought, oh my gosh, if I were a kid, it's. It just was so open ended looking. So you were involved with all that kind of like ground level, getting all that here in the U.S. that's right.
- [09:02]
Rusty Keeler
Yeah. Yeah. We had all the support from Kompan and it was great. We have all this freedom to really dive in and learn about play. So that was, that was kind of my real entrance into it. And then design, design for it. And I found, wow, I like this. I think, you know, that became my life, like my whole career then went focused on that. And you know, I love design equipment and all that kind of stuff. But it was really then when I started kind of rethinking the spaces and rethinking about, you know, equipment can be great, but children don't need metal bars and metal posts and plastic things and all this kind of stuff for play. Like, play is part of the natural process of. And well, what do they need? And they need, you know, time, space, materials, and it could be. And I started feeling like, well, wait, okay, you can order Alaska or Florida or it doesn't matter where you are, you can get the same equipment. And yet the environments are very different in all those places. And I thought, oh, this. I feel like it's important that children get to know where they live. You know, what is, what are the trees like, what are the animals? What are the birds? What's the dirt like? What's the, you know, what is the landscape that you find yourself in? And how could a placescape be for children? An introduction to the, to the land where they live and the earth and processes and community.
- [10:28]
Jenny Eric
Yeah, what an interesting thing. Like you could have been designing airplanes, you know, or the way your life pathway. And now you've got this book and you've got your own Podcast. And you have a membership coming next year called the Nature Play Academy. People can take your class online about risky play. All of your stuff is@ruddy keeler.com and your podcast, which is just ending its first season, is called the Play Nature Podcast. Yeah, how. And so then you ended up. I mean, this is, this book, Adventures in Play. The COVID of it is a slide and there's a little girl at the top sitting in a box.
- [10:59]
Rusty Keeler
Yep. Apple crate. Yep.
- [11:00]
Jenny Eric
A little apple crate with a kid behind her about to push her down the slide, which is such a fantastic photo because you know that there's so many people that will be horrified.
- [11:09]
Rusty Keeler
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Jenny Eric
But this is just because you come out of college, this is a job that you get, and then you become passionate about it, which is important because it's something good to be passionate about. So the book is very much about loose parts and places for kids to hide and mud and fire and water. And like, you talked about all of the natural environment, environment type things. Chickens and mixed stage play and sticks and tree climbing. But I would love to, to ask about the history because I actually have always been curious about this, Rusty. So when I look at a playground, I'm like, I don't. I don't know when the first playground was invented. And then obviously people talk about how they've kind of dumbed down playgrounds if. I don't know if that's a good way to put it, but like, everything is lower and the swing chains are. Are shorter. And so, you know, playgrounds used to be a little bit more, or a lot a bit more treacherous. I guess I'm like, who was the one that was figuring out, oh, kids would like monkey bars. And they were right. Oh, kids would like to spin on this merry go round. Now I know they've gotten rid of so many of those, but whoever first designed them had a really good understanding of kids.
- [12:17]
Rusty Keeler
Sure, yeah, yeah. You know, a lot of that say the metal stuff. I mean, it's funny, if you look historically at playgrounds, you can go on Pinterest and whatever and look up, like, vintage playgrounds. I mean, you see some incredibly wild, dangerous monkey bars. Scaffolding, metal scaffolding that is super high and wild and, you know, whatever. People live through that or they broke arms and all that kind of stuff. But it's interesting because, you know, a lot of that was like, well, what do children like to do? They like to climb. They like to climb things. They like to climb trees. So sometimes they talk about like, well, that Equipment was just taking a tree. And it was funny. I had that experience when I was in Europe and I was designing equipment. And one of our projects was, well, instead of just a playground, what if play stuff was kind of threaded throughout the city, throughout your neighborhood, and we go from place to place. And then I was designing something that would be on the sidewalk, and I was like, oh, I want equipment that changes over time or that moves in the wind or that you can climb it or. Or it gets bigger or they're. They're shady and it's. And then all of a sudden I was like, wait a second. I'm. I'm trying to design a tree. It's like, we can. We can get those. Another one of those aha moments of like, okay, equipment is trying to do something, but wait, maybe the natural world is already doing that.
- [13:36]
Jenny Eric
Yeah.
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Rusty Keeler
So it's just combining those things and thinking about. And then as. As a designer, how. How can you create whole environments and not just the equipment area, but all the corners, all the nooks and crannies, and creating, you know, places to hide and. And loose parts. And so with a risky play. I'm interested in that, too, is like, okay, for playground design. That's fun for the designer. Right. I get to draw and make models and, you know, do prototypes and build and. And then, boom, it's done, and then kids can play on it. But I feel like I. I'm the one who had the real fun of, like, you know, imagining and creating and changing. And so I'm also interested in environments where children can have control and change, and. And that's where the loose parts or that kind of adventure playground movement where it is kids building their own structures, tearing it down and having loose parts and more. The risky kind of stuff. But for them to have control and creativity and collaboration in their play environment.
- [14:35]
Jenny Eric
The history is so interesting. It's like, yes, they must have just taken what kids like to do. They're climbing fences, they're already climbing trees, and we're going to create an artificial. But the things used to be a lot bigger and a lot higher. And obviously, you know, there are all the stories of kids that have broken arms. So over time, because of litigation, playgrounds have changed. But your. Your whole point is it's all copying nature anyway. So these natural playscapes are so good for kids. You're a fan of play for play's sake. You talk about how it just inspires you and how being around play is fun and exciting, and you marvel at it. It's such an interesting thing to think about, Rusty, that there would be a large swath of the population that is not seeing play anymore.
- [15:22]
Rusty Keeler
I mean, like, in the public domain. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Jenny Eric
How do you think that affects society?
- [15:29]
Rusty Keeler
Oh, gosh, that's interesting, you know, I mean, because often. That's funny. It's because we're often focusing on how does that affect children? Like, what are they missing out on? The missing or the social connections, the, you know, being able to problem solve themselves. You know, children as pack animals, all different ages being together and, you know, moving through space. But it is interesting to think about, you know, even for the adults, you know, to be out in your town and there's not kids. Like, there was a liveliness, there was life, there was something playful, there was maybe there was a connection to our own childhood when we, when we would see adults would see like kids riding their bikes or, you know, doing. Doing things or, you know, playing hopscotch or whatever it was. There's like, it's still linked to like our own spirits, our own childhood, you know, our souls of play. And gosh, to not have that, that. What does that suddenly make our town? Serious? Are they all serious now? Because. And then even to see like. Yeah, the, the domains that we live in, like, oh, you know, if you were seeing like kids hiding in the alleys or jumping bikes, you know, doing jumps and all that. But now that. Huh, that's interesting to think about, like our society of getting a little less playful just by the lack of children outside.
- [16:45]
Jenny Eric
Yeah. I mean, you wrote about it, how it inspired you. Like you said, childhood without free play has become a health crisis on too many fronts. Yes. But then in your own experience, you say, whenever I see children playing in rich, deep ways, I feel happy and inspired. Which is not happening very much. Right. Being around play is fun and exciting and I marvel at it every time I see it. But it's not just the children doing the amazing stuff that gets to me. I'm also impressed when. With the adults who are allowing it. That's a whole other piece. Right. So. So there's a lot of marveling going on there. And I think it's something to remember that you're watching human development. You say the beauty of human development right there in front. So you talk about having a place that knows how to say yes. It's like finding ways to say yes to play. Does the place say yes? Does the stuff say yes? Obviously. Does the. Do the adults say yes? But can you talk about. I like that phraseology. What is some stuff that would say yes to play?
- [17:46]
Rusty Keeler
Yeah, you know, so a lot of, a lot of my knowledge is just from all the different projects and places that I visited, work with child care centers and schools and parks and zoos all over the country, different countries in the world. And so I've just seen lots of different, amazing examples of, of it and got to see play in all sorts of different ways. So, you know, it's, it's about that saying yes. And also, you know, I'm about like beautiful, beautiful things. And when I first started out, I wanted natural play spaces and natural materials and no tires or no plastic junk. And, you know, I was a little bit of a nature play snob until I saw the light and realized, wait a second, I saw kids doing incredible stuff with tires and making these creative structures and all sorts of great play on their own because of the loose parts. And then suddenly realizing as I reflected more on that and observed more, it was almost like, you know, we can put beautiful things in children's environments and we want to. Yes, of course. But if it's too precious, children might think, well, I can't really use this how I want to because I might beat it up and the adults might get upset with me, a teacher or my parent or whatever. So I say, like, the stuff says, yes. The loose parts that we put in our environments either at a school playground or backyard, if it is boards, if it's a little beat up, it is okay because it is saying to the child, use me how you want. A five gallon bucket and some boards and some tarps and a tire. You know, children know, oh, this is, I can get this little muddy. It doesn't even matter. I'm focusing on my creativity and my creation and we're collaborating. I'm not wearing like, ooh, did I get some dirt on it? And that kind of thing. So just by the idea of like, it is there for you, child, go for it. The stuff says that, oh, I love it.
- [19:34]
Jenny Eric
The place can say yes, the stuff can say yes, the adult can say yes. You basically are like children. Children are always saying yes. Children are ready to play at any moment. You say children will play whenever they can, but it's the adults who determine if they get the chance. It's adults who have the final say on when kids can play and what types of play they can engage in. Engage in. Adults hold all the power. So finding ideas and ways to say yes in the book, which is called Adventures and Risky Play, has got phenomenal photos. I mean, Just absolutely phenomenal all the way through kids climbing trees and kids pouring water and kids in buckets and kids hitting each other with pool noodles and kids getting muddy. I mean, the, the photos, you can just tell that you've been all over the world working on this because the breadth of photos are so inspiring. When it comes to holiday gifting, I.
- [20:24]
Podcast Host (possibly a producer or announcer)
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- [21:41]
Jenny Eric
I really, really want to hear about Sudbury Valley.
- [21:44]
Rusty Keeler
Oh, gosh, yeah. Yeah.
- [21:45]
Jenny Eric
We've had Peter Gray on a couple times and haven't talked a ton about Sudbury Valley because there's always other things to talk about and his kid went there so, you know, he'll talk about what that experience was like as a dad. But I am super curious about the experience from. He talks about it, Rusty from like he's a dad, his kid is struggling in the sort of mainstream school system and so Sudbury Valley is an answer for him. You're coming at it from like, not, not that you just, you're going there and you're kind of thrown off. Yeah, you say. I admit that seeing the Hudson Valley Sudbury School in action was jarring and confusing at first. It's strange to witness at first, and then it ends up feeling natural. Can you talk about it? Because it's so different from how we typically do childhood.
- [22:34]
Rusty Keeler
Yes, yes. And how we do school. Right. So. So, I mean, just kind of overview of Sudbury, the model is, you know, I don't know if they call it. It's not like, unschool, because there is a school, there is a building, there is a great library, there's computer technology, there's cozy couches, there's sewing machines, there's art rooms, there's music rooms, there's all that kind of stuff, but there aren't grades. It's just a whole bunch of kids from. From preschool all the way to high school. And they are free, and this is Peter Gray, free to learn. They are free to do what they want all day, every day. And the idea is that they will find their passion, they will find their interests, and the learning will follow that.
- [23:18]
Jenny Eric
Wow.
- [23:18]
Rusty Keeler
Okay. So that. That in itself. So I went in kind of knowing that, but just right from the bat. What was interesting was that, you know, I get emails, I get calls, you know, for new projects. This one was from an adult from the school, and they said, we have this project. The children want to do something in the woods. It's their idea. And the children did research, like, who could help us. They wanted to do, like, forts and play stuff in their woods. And they did research. They found me, and then they enlisted the adult to reach out to me and brought. Invited me in there to build with them. And so right away it was like, wait, wow.
- [23:59]
Jenny Eric
So completely different, probably, than any other project you'd ever had.
- [24:03]
Rusty Keeler
Yeah, yeah.
- [24:04]
Jenny Eric
You're getting hired by kids, which, if you think about it, what would make the most sense in terms of building play equipment in natural playscapes for kids? Nothing makes more sense than having the kids be the one that hire it out.
- [24:18]
Rusty Keeler
Yup, yup. Absolutely.
- [24:20]
Jenny Eric
Okay.
- [24:21]
Rusty Keeler
Yeah.
- [24:21]
Jenny Eric
You know what it's about. To a degree, they've reached out. You're like, this is different than, you know, the typical township that's going to have a playground or something put in, or going over to the Netherlands or something like that. So the kids are kind of driving the project and you show up and it really is just like, everyone's doing their thing.
- [24:40]
Rusty Keeler
Yeah, everyone's doing their thing. They sort of knew I was coming. And then there were the kids that were, like, really engaged, whose original idea it was. And we're going to go in the woods, we. Certain materials. With materials, listen, tools and rope and everything ready. There were some kids that were, you know, sort of interested. We'll be there for a while. And. And then there were kids and this is the thing that was. That didn't care at all. And they weren't in the woods, they were in the school reading their books or playing video stuff or, you know, doing whatever. And that was interesting. So that's different than school, right? Typical school. Because typical school, they'd have everybody marched out there and everyone's got to participate and everyone's going to. So. So I just get going and I'm working with the kids and we're building stuff and I'm kind of helping them with like maybe the structural things so that then when I leave, they can keep building forts on it and everything. And. And then it was just so interesting to see, you know, I was excited because this was like the first time I had built with children more than adventure playgrounds. They have the tools and power tools and they're, we're, you know, screwing things together and building all this stuff. And then you just see this flow of kids and. And suddenly there's more kids. And then suddenly there's like, you know, bigger kids. The older high school kids, they're coming in, they're lifting and doing the, you know, heavy lifting. And then they'll be like, at some point the preschool, preschool kids come in and they're like these little magic fairies and they add their sprinkler there, everything. And. And then at one point I walked in into the school and sure enough, there's kids that could not care. They couldn't care less about what's going on in the woods. And. And then suddenly it was like, well, yeah, why, why should they, why should they have to be, you know, I mean, they could be exposed to it. They had the opportunity, but if it wasn't floating their boat, it wasn't. They were involved in other things. They weren't forced to.
- [26:30]
Jenny Eric
It's like, I think on its face, people will be horrified. You know, like the kids just get to choose whether they join in or not. Like the kids get to choose. We're in such an adult driven society. You wrote, do we adulterate children's lives? Do we mostly dictate what they do, when, with whom and how? Without a doubt, use the phrase holding them hostage. So at Sudbury Valley, there's no grades, there's no grade levels, there's no classes.
- [26:57]
Podcast Host (possibly a producer or announcer)
There'S no actual teachers.
- [26:58]
Jenny Eric
Students here do what they want when they want. And yet they're turning out. I mean, it's been going on for a long time. So they're, you know, at least since the 80s. That's when Peter Gray's kid.
- [27:08]
Rusty Keeler
Yeah, yeah.
- [27:09]
Jenny Eric
Going on for decades. And it, it's interesting, Rusty, to me, that you could do a childhood one way, which is like 15,000 hours of it goes toward this adult directed sort of formal education process with grades and classes and bells and that type of thing. And then you could also do a childhood completely different, which is like, here's a bunch of resources. We will help resource you with what you're interested in. And you pick. And you're like, they both work. They both work to turn out adults. And so it's challenging because you're like, what am I going to do with my time? Peter Gray says, and you have this in the book. The best thing that people at traditional schools can do to foster self directed education, which is incredibly important in this day and age because the world is changing fast, is to reduce rather than continually increase the amount of time that children have to spend at school and homework. Reduce it. So the one cool thing about. There's a lot of cool things about this book because like I said, you're going through all the different types of things that basically say yes to kids. You go through the history of adventure playgrounds, you go through the history of junk playgrounds which has been going on since the 1950s, 40s. You talk a ton about risky play. Teacher Tom calls you the king of risky play, I think. Is that right?
- [28:21]
Rusty Keeler
Something like that. The king of risky play.
- [28:24]
Jenny Eric
But you go through all these tours. This is a really unique thing that you have because of the line of work that you do. You have this knowledge of play around the world. So you go through program tours. So that's like Sudbury Valley or there's an adventure school in Ithaca, or there's a Swedish open air school in Sweden. Obviously there's a nature kindergarten in Scotland. You talk about a wildwoods school in New Zealand, which I would imagine, I mean, you're just scratching the surface here. But you do a program tour and a playground tour and an early childhood centers tour. All through your book.
- [29:00]
Rusty Keeler
Yeah.
- [29:01]
Jenny Eric
People are like, oh, what, what is this? Like in other areas of the world, you're going to be able to see different programs, different childhood centers, different and different playgrounds. What do people need to know about the differences as it relates to cultures and different parts of the world concerning play and, and how things are set up for kids?
- [29:22]
Rusty Keeler
Sure. You Know, things can be different culturally and what materials and of course, the environment and what plants and trees and that they have access to. But I feel like beneath that, we're all the same. Beneath that surface, children have that drive to play, to learn and grow, right? It is in us, it's in our spirits, our DNA. And all children have that. And I'm going to play conferences all over the place. And you'll see loose parts at schools in Japan with cardboard and tires and boards and fabric. Looks just like loose parts in Germany or. Or loose parts in Ithaca, New York. Or it's like you put the stuff there and step back and say yes. And children are playing. Like there is this universality of it, you know, around cultures and they want to. But how. How are they getting to? Are they getting to. Do they have the time? Do they have the space? Do they have the materials? Do they have adults that love it and support it and, and know how important it is and want to. Want to, you know, provide those opportunities for their children and same with parents and backyards and environments. And, you know, I think with all those pictures and all the tours in the book, I wanted to normalize all this kind of play. Like, this is. This is what children do when they have cardboard and boards and adults there. This is what they do when they're in the woods. This is what they do when the creeks and you can have messy yards and to show like, you know, even best practices places are doing it. You know, university preschools are doing these. They have messy things and mud kitchens and all sorts of stuff and kids in rain suits and, you know, it's all happening. And so it was just like, let's just get lots of pictures to be like, this is childhood. This is, you know, when they have the space to do it, this is what children do. And it is so good for them. Like we. They thrive, they grow, they learn. You know, a million billion things are going on in their hearts, minds, bodies, spirits when they have those opportunities.
- [31:37]
Jenny Eric
What a cool thing to have seen it all over the world from place to place. Places where they spend 70 to 100% of the time outdoors year round, and where they talk about how much of the percentage goes to free play. And the rest of it is like a subtle teacher agenda. It's really cool to see the photos. I mean, what a fantastic thing. Okay, so king of risky play, let's talk about this. Peter Gray says kids are biologically designed to self educate. So their body drives them on to self educate if they're in A position like a Sudbury Valley where they're supported in that. You say the brain is wired to seek out risky experiences because those risky experiences help develop the prefrontal cortex. That's a really interesting way to look at it, Rusty, because I think sometimes we look at kids and we're like, oh, they're kind of dumb. You know, why are they doing that dangerous thing? They're not very smart. You know, that's. That's too dangerous for them.
- [32:37]
Rusty Keeler
And.
- [32:37]
Jenny Eric
Yeah, what you're saying is. No, they're. Their body craves these risky experiences because it's those risky experiences that help their brains to develop. So can you talk about why, especially today, when we're in a risky world, that, you know, kids need to be brave and not super timid?
- [32:58]
Rusty Keeler
Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think childhood and play is about, you know, finding out who you are for all the children. Who am I, and what do I like to do and how do I interact with my peers, and what do they do and what do I like to do or what do I not like to do or what are my limits, you know, and how do I set limits? How do I set boundaries with other people or with myself? And I feel like that kind of thing happens through play, through. And in some ways, it's. It's being. You know, we can talk about play, but it's really, I think, children being and supporting them to be their natural selves. And because they are growing, you know, each stage from infants, you know, infants want to, you know, crawl, crawlers want to toddle, toddlers want to walk, walkers want to run, climb, you know, on and on and on. And their. Their. Their job is to push the edge, push the limits, you know, and see where they're. See what's next. And so I think that's part of it is they, you know, they. They want to be on the edge. And everyone has their comfort zone. But it's interesting when it bumps into adults. Our comfort zone.
- [34:08]
Jenny Eric
Right.
- [34:09]
Rusty Keeler
We see them on an edge of a curb or climbing a little bit of a stump or a log, and we get nervous, like, oh, my gosh, you'll poke your eye out, you'll break your arm and all that kind of stuff.
- [34:18]
Jenny Eric
Yeah.
- [34:19]
Rusty Keeler
So we jump in and we say no, and, you know, and then we can feel like, oh, they didn't break their arm. So I, you know, I protected them. But when we jump in so fast, what. What are we robbing them of? And. And part of it is the opportunity to make the decision themselves, for them to assess the risk, you know, have access to it and then assess it for themselves and, and for them to have like, you know, in, like we all have inside of us an inner guide, right, that, an inner guidance that helps us make decisions. Do I want to balance on that log? Does it look sturdy? Does it not look sturdy? And so we want children to be able to develop that. But if we're jumping in and we're the ones who are saying no, don't do that, no, don't do that, you know, children could just rely on us and then they don't get a chance to make those decisions themselves. And then when they do confront things, well, they might not have that kind of resiliency or they might not, they might be more timid, you know, and that could translate to how they do in school. Geez, I'm nervous about trying new things or I don't know if I'll succeed or fail because I haven't had experiences of falling off logs and getting back on and knowing I can do it or knowing what my limits are and on and on in life. We want children. You know, ultimately they'll grow and be free, right? They'll grow up and be adults and, and what then they're free range. Or then they, or suddenly then that's, that could be scary because then suddenly they have to make decisions. They don't have the adults. I know you shouldn't do that, you shouldn't do that. And of course children still need help and guidance, you know, tapping that inner guidance to learn about it and to deal with other people and, and deal with, you know, setbacks and everything. But ultimately it's to prepare them, enrich them, to be able to do with themselves. And so that's the environment, the environments that say yes is. It's also inviting them to have those kind of experiences.
- [36:18]
Jenny Eric
You wrote since life is full of risk and uncertainty, it can become for the overprotected child a life of stress and difficulty. And also you talk about how we've got built in instincts to protect them. They have built in instincts as well. I think that's what we don't know is that they don't want to get hurt. And so they, they are cautious too about trying new things. But over time, the wording that you used I think is so important. You said that the risky experiences, the risky behavior helps kids to learn how to predict the consequences of their actions so that you can have some long term thought. Like I've read a couple books recently that have talked about how there are Kids that can't, they can't figure out like a bunch of different solutions to their problem. They maybe can't figure out any, or maybe they can only figure out one. But if you can think through four or five solutions to whatever your problem is and try and predict the consequences, you're going to be in a lot better of a spot. So this risky play is helping them to learn how to do that. It's making all of these connections. So you say that as the adult, and this is important thing to say, you may never feel completely comfortable with what they're doing.
- [37:31]
Rusty Keeler
Yeah.
- [37:32]
Jenny Eric
Can you talk about that? That, that. I, I almost think we feel like that's the goal is like, I just need to feel comfortable. But you're like, you're probably not going to, going to.
- [37:39]
Rusty Keeler
Right, Right. No, I mean, that's it. If, if the goal is for we as adults to feel comfortable when kids are out playing. I mean, that's when you get rubber surfaces and say no all the time. And not a lot of choice and certainly no loose things. But even then, we probably would still feel nervous. So. So it's not about not feeling nervous. It's almost feeling okay with feeling nervous. You know, some. Sometimes, you know, we're observing play, but it's also important for us as adults to observe ourselves observing play. Like, okay, oh my gosh, he's on that log. He's gonna. And then suddenly think, oh, wait, what am I thinking? Am I thinking the worst thing that could happen to him? And is it really gonna happen? Is she really gonna fall off that? Or is she not? Or they're running with a stick. Oh, my gosh. You know, you want to, you want to stop it because you could poke their eye out. Yeah, they're gonna poke their eye out. But, you know, I'm always, you know, encouraging people to the knee jerk reaction. Instead of going forward, actually take a step back, cover your mouth. 1, 1,000, 2, 1,000, 3, 1,000. And just watch what's going on. And maybe you have to jump in and stop it. But more cases than not. Oh, it's a magic wand. Oh, they just needed a stick to go stir their, you know, their mud kitchen soup or. Oh, they know what they're doing. And of course there's accidents about to happen. Maybe you do need to step in. But more often than not, children, you know, when we would really go deep and we can trust them and see that they are able, they are, they don't want to get hurt. And, you know, all children are different and you know, certain children you have to watch more closely than others and different age groups and all that kind of stuff. But really, if we, we want to honor play and childhood in the natural way, the nature play way, to know, to be growing and to, to. Then they learn, well, that prefrontal cortex again, like when they're on a log and they like, oh, if I wobble it, it turns. Oh, and then the brain makes a note of that, like, okay, went on log in future, you know, that, that prediction thing. I know what to do or I know that's unstable compared to, you know, a square board kind of thing. And, and so we want those experiences to build and build and build.
- [39:49]
Jenny Eric
You really do have such a robust book. You know, I. There's, you know, there's the pictures, there's the tour, there's all of the seasonality things, you know, tools and fire and adventure playgrounds and chickens. But then you have things like this risk. A risk benefit chart.
- [40:06]
Rusty Keeler
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [40:08]
Jenny Eric
You know, what really are the risks? They're gonna stub their toe. They could roll into somebody. You know, they might attract lumberjacks.
- [40:17]
Rusty Keeler
That was a joke.
- [40:17]
Jenny Eric
Okay.
- [40:18]
Rusty Keeler
That was a joke.
- [40:18]
Jenny Eric
All right. There's a question mark there. You know, there might be bees inside. You could poke your eye out. We already talked about that one. But then you talk about what are the benefits? You know, the benefits are that you do something challenging that, you know, you can use your creativity to turn this into something else. So I'm going to hold this up in case I ever get it up on YouTube. But it's got these risk analysis.
- [40:37]
Rusty Keeler
Yes.
- [40:38]
Jenny Eric
And then you have experts. So experts have written in a couple pages. It's really laid out very well, which makes sense since you're like in this design space. But like there's a. Deb Thompson talks about mix stage play and there's a whole section, pull out section on that. So there is so much in here. And so I wanted to mention because I'd written down about the risk benefit analysis chart. Yeah, you talk about rough and tumble play too. This is about friendship. It's about build bonding. It's about touch and togetherness and trust. Humans have always been rough and tumbling. Can you talk about the connection I thought this was actually super important between rough and tumble play and teaching kids about consent.
- [41:18]
Rusty Keeler
Absolutely, yes. You know, I feel like rough and tumble sometimes we might think that the, the risk is physical risk. Oh, they're going to get hurt. But in, in many ways that, that playing with risk is actually social. Like, oh, Can I trust this person? Are they gonna, you know, do we have some rules here? And consent is like, okay, rough and tumble. Do you want to wrestle? Do you want them bop each other with pool noodles? Like, you kind of, you know, you could use your words and say, okay, we were going to do this. Kids could have their own rules. Or maybe there's, you know, different schools and homes do different things. But it's that idea of like, is this okay? Can we really get into this? Can we have puppy play? Can we roll around? But what are our limits? Like, what. What are we consenting to? And. And what is that? You know, it's. It's really like an intimate connection, the rough and tumble and that physical. But it's kind of like, okay, I trust you. You can trust me. Or can you trust me, you know, to not take it too far? So a lot of that is like, okay, we're gonna. We want to get into this, but how are we going to negotiate it? Verbal or non. Verbal?
- [42:22]
Jenny Eric
Yeah. Yeah, that's.
- [42:24]
Rusty Keeler
Yeah.
- [42:25]
Jenny Eric
This one you have another talking about, like, there's these sort of. I don't even know you call them. They're just special sections in the book, and they're different colors. So this one is Mike Cuber. He's an. He's an author. He's also an early childhood education supervisor, but he's an author and he wrote a book. I've never heard of this book. Embracing rough and tumble play. Teaching with the body in mind. And so it's this whole section about rough and tumble play and different thoughts on it and different questions that people have, different stories that people have talked about about just wrestling and how it's, you know, building friendships. So you wrote Rough and tumble play is a perfect way to teach children about consent and also that it's a way for children to learn how to empath, empathize with others. So a lot of information there. It helps them with their proprioceptive and vestibular sense. It helps them build social cohesion among children. It helps them self regulate. And so you say the least amount of adult intervention as possible is what the mantra should be. So really important information. I mean, this is a big book.
- [43:23]
Rusty Keeler
It's weighty. It's got. It's got some weight to it. Heft.
- [43:27]
Jenny Eric
It does. There's a lot in here and a lot of. Just very inspiring. It's just inspiring. Like the vibrancy of kids chasing after, you know, chasing after tires or, you know, taking the play structure that's there and adding in all this fabric and like turning it into little forts and things. It's really incredible, all of the pictures and things that you have put in there. One of the things that comes up a lot now. So I'm coming at it from a perspective of a mom and trying to find good playgrounds or, you know, making sure that the kids have loose parts if like we're out in nature and, and going to a place that's maybe less manicured from a, like a program head point of view, like someone who's running a childcare center, someone who's, you know, at the decision making level for schools.
- [44:14]
Podcast Host (possibly a producer or announcer)
You talk a lot about licensing.
- [44:17]
Rusty Keeler
Yes, yes.
- [44:18]
Jenny Eric
This is something I've never considered. I mean, I've never thought about it.
- [44:22]
Podcast Host (possibly a producer or announcer)
Rusty.
- [44:22]
Jenny Eric
And so like with each section of the book, when you're talking about fire, you're talking about mud. You know, people know you're, you're responding to the question of someone who would say, well, we couldn't get license for that. Like someone even said that about water. They said, but licensing won't let us have water. So first of all, we're kind of licensing out childhood.
- [44:47]
Rusty Keeler
Yeah, yeah.
- [44:49]
Jenny Eric
What can you just, for this, people who wouldn't know that, like, I actually wouldn't know that. Can you explain what's going on and then what advice do you give?
- [44:58]
Rusty Keeler
Sure, yeah. For early childhood settings, child care settings, preschools, they are all you have to be licensed to run a child care. And, and part of that is then having, you know, safe, safe environments. And there's, you know, lots of steps that you need indoors and outdoors, you know, to make sure that, you know, people are doing it in a safe way, that everyone's going to be healthy and, you know, grow in a good way. So ultimately licensing is a good thing. It's, it's to protect children and families, to make sure that the places are healthy and safe. But I know that so many programs feel often limited by what they think licensing will say. We have a bunch of loose stuff out there. License here is going to come in and because their job is to like, assess the situation, be like, wait, does this person know? Is this negligent because they have tires and boards and fabric all over the place? Or is this best practice? Is this best practice or worse practice? And what it comes down to is the adult being able to use the words to say to communicate, hey, we have the boards, we have the tires, we have this fabric because it's good for the brain, it's good for collaboration. There's creativity, there's math skills. There's, you know, on and on. There's reasons. And part of that you mentioned the risk benefit analysis. That is a great tool to talk to licensors about to say, okay, yes, we have a big boulder on our playground and but we did it before we decided to do that. We did a risk benefit analysis. And so you're basically, you're trying to.
- [46:33]
Jenny Eric
Wording this is the game, right?
- [46:35]
Rusty Keeler
Yes, yes. You're basically saying, we know what we're doing, but here is our thinking process. So that could be balancing on a log or having a fire, having a chicken or, you know, having the tires. But you know, in the old days we just did risk benefit analysis. That. And that would be like, oh, that deal. Like we said that that log, you'll fall off, you broke your, you break your arm, you chip a tooth, you. And so, so we say no. But when you say no, you also miss the good things. So now people are doing this risk and benefit analysis. So you still look at the risks of climbing on a log or having a big boulder. Okay, these things could happen. But what are the positive things? What are the benefits? And then saying, okay, there's balance, there's coordination, there's fun, there's, you know, problem solving, you know, all this kind of stuff. And then you wave. You suddenly weighing the good and the bad, the risk and the benefits. And then you can make your decision and then you can use that to communicate with your licensor. Another good thing to think about is the difference between a risk and a hazard. And so, yes, so quickly we could say a risk is good, a hazard is bad. A risk is something that could be a little dangerous, a child might get hurt on it, but it's something that the child sees and the child can choose for themselves. So that could be balancing on that log, okay, I could fall, but there's wood chips and I'm going to go for it. A hazard is something dangerous, a little dangerous, something that could hurt a child, but it's something that they don't see, that they're not choosing. So if it was the same log, if there was a chunk of concrete under there, or the log had a bunch of pokey eye, pokey branches sticking out of it. Those things are hazards. So I like to differentiate those things and say that our job as adults is to scan the environment. You know, and this is same in your backyard or your, you go to the woods, glass.
- [48:25]
Jenny Eric
I mean, you know, we've been places where it's like, oh, you know, I've got a friend in behind her house. She's got tons of woods and we were out there with all the kids and there was glass back there because it was like antique. I think it was like from 100.
- [48:38]
Rusty Keeler
Years ago or something. Yeah, yeah.
- [48:40]
Jenny Eric
That's a hazard. Right. Then as an adult, you make sure you grab all the glass before everybody's running around barefoot or rusty nails. But that is really interesting wording, a difference between a risk and a hazard because the license person is wanting to cover the situation and. And make sure that they've done their job right and that, you know, everyone is safe. I'm putting that in quotes. But it is interesting to think that these people are coming in and don't have the training that you have and haven't read the books that you have. And so they could see something that is beneficial for kids, best practice as negligent.
- [49:14]
Rusty Keeler
Yeah, I've heard also.
- [49:15]
Jenny Eric
Yeah, that's what they're going to think.
- [49:18]
Rusty Keeler
And it could be because they've just never encountered that before. Yeah, maybe. Maybe all their playgrounds have are just monkey bars and swings. And so that's what they. And they know, they measure, they have fall surfaces, they have the proper this and that, but they don't. Suddenly they come in and there's a bunch of bushes and a hill, muddy hill, and there's pots and pans and they've never seen that. So to them it looks like way. All that stuff, you could hit somebody with a frying pan and.
- [49:43]
Jenny Eric
Yeah.
- [49:43]
Rusty Keeler
And so they feel like I. They need. They might need to say no.
- [49:47]
Podcast Host (possibly a producer or announcer)
Wow.
- [49:47]
Jenny Eric
So there's an education component there and the book goes through how to do that. There's two different perspectives on licensing. When you're talking about the wording, this is in the book. So if you're in a situation where you're wanting to bring in more of these elements for kids and you're a decision maker, this would really help. Let's talk about mixed age play.
- [50:05]
Rusty Keeler
Yep.
- [50:06]
Jenny Eric
So all of these things facilitate mixed age play. Sticks and tools and fires and water and mud. It all facilitates kids of all ages and loose parts. I love this sentence. All wisdom does not have to come from the adults in the room either. Sometimes think we're too prideful. Wow. Do kids bring wisdom, don't they?
- [50:31]
Rusty Keeler
Yeah.
- [50:32]
Jenny Eric
I mean, Sudbury Valley, you would see it, right? It's like not adult focus. I think so much of our work world as it relates to kids is adult focused.
- [50:41]
Rusty Keeler
Yeah, yeah. And what we think the learning moment is or what is the key bit of information when there could be a billion million things going on in the child that they're learning and making connections that we have. It's not just about the one idea that we have as an adult that we're going to focus on.
- [50:59]
Jenny Eric
Yeah, I mean if you look at the book, there's kids of all ages. Can you talk about how the type of playgrounds it with the junk in the loose parts, how they really help to facilitate mixed age groups?
- [51:10]
Rusty Keeler
Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's kind of like, you know, loose materials or being at the beach in a natural setting or being at the woods. There's something for everybody, right. A toddler is going to use the beach in one way or loose materials in one way. And you know, a middle schooler or a preschooler or elementary age, they're going to use it in their own way. And you know, to have the mixed age is nice because it gives young children to see, oh, there's bigger kids, wow, look what they're doing. And they're strong bodies and someday I'll do that or maybe I'm going to try to do that too. I never thought of that. And then it gives the older kids an opportunity when they're with little kids to be nurturing, to be nurturers. You know, they want to be with the little kids and it gives the older kids maybe this opportunity that maybe they don't have as much to be little kids again. Oh, I can be playful because I'm playing with this little kid. But they might want to still play and in their imaginations too. So the fact that you have all these mixes together is it's beautiful and it's natural. It's kind of the way that humans have been, you know, children used to be or where they are in neighborhoods and packs together. There's, there's something for everybody. Everybody.
- [52:22]
Jenny Eric
We've been doing these like little sewing projects and you know, that's something that is really not conducive to kids of all ages. So you know, our youngest is nine and she still needs a lot of help but like there isn't much where a 15 year old is going to have a good time and so is a four year old. But the beach is a place like, you know, the woods. It does it, it offers something for everybody. And you talk about in this book a woman named Deb Top, another one of these sort of pull out sections of the book and you're talking to her about mixed age play and she uses this word which I've never heard, even though I used to teach school called developmentalism. Developmentalism. Yep, that's it. Developmentalism. That we've taken this approach that we can just assume that because of how old the child is, we know what they need back to sort of the pride of the adult there. And it's just sort of the assumption. I. I liked learning about it in your book because it helped frame a little bit more like why we do what we do.
- [53:24]
Rusty Keeler
Segregate by age.
- [53:25]
Podcast Host (possibly a producer or announcer)
Yeah.
- [53:25]
Rusty Keeler
People keep people in. Yeah. I mean, you can say, okay, each age has an average, how they are at math or language or reading or strength and all that. And yet once you start going closer. No, there's. Everybody's in a range. We're on a spectrum of all that stuff, and then we're fluctuating all the time. And. Yeah, and so there's the Sudbury school, where it's just fluid. And if you were really loving math and you're keep studying, you can. You can be a younger kid, but you can take. There's no limit to how far you can go. You're not limited by that. You're in grade four or five if you want, if you're ready for algebra, you can go for it. You can. You can keep going.
- [54:04]
Jenny Eric
Yeah. So this is such an important concept because you. You wrote about how the structural standards of this developmentalism, they are creating rules and regulations, which is where we're at. Right. This is what you have to learn in second grade. This is what you have to learn in fifth grade about what is required based on kids.
- [54:21]
Podcast Host (possibly a producer or announcer)
Ages.
- [54:22]
Jenny Eric
However, this logic fails when other factors besides age are considered to be important in human development. Mixed age groupings work to disrupt developmental assumptions about children based on age. That's one of, like, the biggest things I've ever read. You know, I mean, I have no idea how old you are, but I would never be. Like, Rusty is 42, and this is what I assume about him based on his age. Like, we wouldn't do that with anybody else ever.
- [54:51]
Rusty Keeler
Yeah. Ever.
- [54:52]
Jenny Eric
Oh, that kid is 6, so he should be doing this or that. And so by having mixed age groups, it allows adults and children, I think, to step out of that. It disrupts the assumptions. It's so good.
- [55:07]
Rusty Keeler
Yes, it is.
- [55:08]
Jenny Eric
It's so good. I loved reading about it.
- [55:10]
Rusty Keeler
Yeah.
- [55:11]
Jenny Eric
Community that's created in mixed age settings. So you can just see it. You can see it in all the photos. Go ahead.
- [55:19]
Rusty Keeler
I was just saying, then there's leaders, you know, the different ages. Like, there's different leaders because one kid might be, like, really Strong. So they're going to lead in that. But then a younger kid could, like, have really good imagination, and they're going to think in a certain way or let alone if there's neurodiversity and people think in different ways. And so there's all these different gifts, and not everybody's the same. And that's part of play, and that's part of, like, growing of, like, finding who you are and your strengths and where you're at in life.
- [55:47]
Jenny Eric
It's so good.
- [55:48]
Rusty Keeler
It's.
- [55:48]
Jenny Eric
I'm just, like, reading so much of it, but I'm like, this is such a big book. I love this part about. And we're gonna have to wrap it up here. But the book is called Adventures and Risky Play.
- [55:55]
Podcast Host (possibly a producer or announcer)
What is your.
- [55:56]
Jenny Eric
Yes, you will get a lot out of it if you're a parent and educator. You had another one. We're talking about mixed stage play that really focused on this word almost. The children were running and tugging and running and tugging, and they almost close lined, you know, like completely knocked over with a rope. A young toddler notice I said almost. And, you know, the, the consultant, the person who's coming in for licensing is like, oh, you know, that's dangerous that you have a rope. And she said, tell me about the rope. And they say, look, they almost knocked the young child over. But almost is important because they didn't do it. And so it's like, you can see that kids are learning their limitations. They're learning to look out for others. That's empathy. They're paying attention to other people besides themselves. And so then they're learning the limits of their body. They didn't knock that child over because they have had a lot of practice playing with and near young children. It's so good. I get chills reading it because I kind of think if we're. If we're kind of returning to the very beginning of what we talked about, that it is a marvelous thing, a remarkable thing to watch children, a beautiful thing to watch children at play and to see the human development right there in front of us. The book is called Adventures and Risky Play. What is your. Yes, you can listen to the Play Nature podcast. You have this membership that's coming next. It'll be this year by the time this comes out, probably. But rustykeeler.com people can find out more there. We always end our show with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside?
- [57:27]
Rusty Keeler
Oh, man, so many. But gosh, a mystical one was, I had fields behind my house. I was roaming. The fields were just till. So it was fresh earth. And I came across something that I didn't know what it was, but there was a part of me that knew what it was before I saw it. And it was water bubbling out of the ground from a spring that the plow must have nicked. Opened up and it was just coming out. And there was something that was like, I knew what it was, even though I had never seen that in my life. And then there it was, like this water. And I remember looking around and there was no one else near me. And it was like just this private moment of the spring. The earth, me, myself, and. And it's interesting because I can even feel, you know, we grow and change in our lives, but I can feel at that moment that I was. It's the same person, the same. The same spirit that I am now. Was looking at that. Yeah.
- [58:23]
Jenny Eric
Yeah. So much more mesmerizing than anything man made, that nature is the ultimate playground. And you really highlight that in this book. What an honor.
- [58:32]
Podcast Host (possibly a producer or announcer)
Really cool.
- [58:32]
Jenny Eric
Really cool to talk with you with all these different background, this background that you have and all the places that you've gone and just that your life's path has taken you down this path of supporting kids in play. So really, really appreciate your time. Thank you for.
- [58:46]
Rusty Keeler
Oh, thank you. Great to be here. Great to talk with you, Jenny.
- [58:49]
Podcast Host (possibly a producer or announcer)
As we wrap up today, I just want to say thank you for listening and for caring about childhood, family life and what really shapes us. If this episode taught you something, I'd be so grateful if you leave a review or share it with someone you love that person to person. Sharing is how this message travels and how this podcast keeps going. If you're looking for a practical next step, don't Forget our free 20261000 Hours Outside tracker sheets are available now, and the 1000 Hours Outside Mega Bundle is on sale through January 12th for just $25. Both are designed to help families turn inspiration into lived experiences. You can find everything you need in the show. Notes and the Trackers are at 1000 hours outside.comTrackers.
- [59:29]
Jenny Eric
I'M really glad you're here.
- [59:30]
Podcast Host (possibly a producer or announcer)
Thanks for spending this time with me. May you find extraordinary moments on ordinary paths.
- [59:36]
Narrator
Get outside Open your eyes Feel that sunshine kissing your skin Throw your worries out to the wind Climb some trees Skin your knees Feel that grass on your feet again get out there and.
- [59:55]
Rusty Keeler
Take it in oh.
- [60:01]
Narrator
It'S a beautiful.
- [60:02]
Rusty Keeler
World.
- [60:04]
Narrator
Ain't nothing on the screen that's ever gonna be this.
- [60:13]
Rusty Keeler
Beautiful world.
- [60:16]
Narrator
And I just want to share with I just want to share with you this beautiful world Such a beautiful world.
- [60:30]
Rusty Keeler
And Doug, here we have the Limu Emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Media Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.
- [60:46]
Jenny Eric
Limu. Is that guy with the binoculars watching us?
- [60:49]
Rusty Keeler
Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty Savings Fairy Unwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts.