1KHO 672: My Generation Had Our Childhoods Burned Down | Sean Killingsworth, The Reconnect Movement

Summary

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Episode Overview

Title: 1KHO 672: My Generation Had Our Childhoods Burned Down | Sean Killingsworth, The Reconnect Movement
Host: Ginny Yurich (1000 Hours Outside)
Guest: Sean Killingsworth, Founder of The Reconnect Movement
Date: January 7, 2026

This powerful episode delves into the reality of growing up "online," as Sean Killingsworth, a Gen Z advocate and founder of The Reconnect Movement, explains what it’s really like to come of age in an environment saturated by screens, social media, and surveillance. Through stories, analogies, and urgent calls for empathy, Sean argues that an entire generation’s childhood has been "burned down" by constant digital engagement—and explains how he’s building movements to reclaim real-world connection.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Lost Childhood: Growing Up Surrounded by Screens

• Sean’s Story:

  • As a homeschooled kid eager for social play, Sean attended an after-school program filled with toys and play structures. On arrival, he found all the kids on Nintendo DS devices, immersed in Pokémon, with no one to play with physically.

    “What’s the point of having all these toys if I don’t have anyone to play with?” – Sean Killingsworth [04:10]

  • This became a metaphor for his entire youth—always facing a crowd physically present but mentally elsewhere.

• The Novelty and Trauma of Always-Online Adolescence:

  • Millennial and Gen X parents can only imagine this world, but for Gen Z and Gen Alpha, surveillance, instant sharing, and online bullying are default.
  • Lack of adult intervention: No adults enforced play or protected the “one childhood” kids have.

    “No adults protected that for you.” – Ginny Yurich [05:22]

2. Why Tech Habits Aren't Enough: The Importance of Environment

• Disable Habits, Not Just Devices:
  • Adults suggest, “Just have good phone habits,” but even non-users are isolated if everyone else is on their phones.
  • Personal tech restraint is futile in a community where digital connection is the social currency.

    “You go to school with a flip phone, and everyone else is on their phones—social life happens on Snapchat and Instagram. It’s like being alone in a crowd.” – Sean Killingsworth [06:00]

• The Need for Phone-Free Spaces:

  • Real connection emerges when everyone surrenders their devices together.

  • The Reconnect Movement creates environments (“human connection habitats”) where phones are checked at the door, freeing participants from the pressure of willpower.

    “The magic occurs when it’s not on the participants’ willpower. One person manages the event, collects the phones… It feels safe. Everyone’s present.” – Sean Killingsworth [10:14]

3. The ‘Social Wasteland’: Culture & Mental Health in the Digital Age

• Constant Vigilance, No Privacy:

  • The default expectation is any interaction can be filmed, posted, weaponized.

    “Imagine closing your eyes and remembering your childhood… Now imagine everyone was filming with a camera the entire time.” – Sean Killingsworth [35:00]

  • Kids are always “on stage,” leading to chronic anxiety and self-curation.

    “We aren’t built to handle this level of scrutiny every single day. We never get a break.” – Sean Killingsworth [34:32]

• ‘Screen Habitat’ vs ‘Human Connection Habitat’:

  • In screen habitats, ignoring live people for devices is normalized. In human connection habitats, genuine engagement is natural and expected.

    “If you’re not on your phone, people look at you as suspicious.” – Sean Killingsworth [09:30, 29:08]

  • The analogy of cigarette smoke: Even in “non-smoking” sections, smoke drifts—likewise, one phone out disrupts presence for all [13:16].

• Malnourished Friendships:

  • Online “connection” is compared to eating fast food—filling, but devoid of the nutrients humans need from real, present relationships.

    “Connecting through social media is like eating fast food for your connection. You’re not really present. It's sapping all the nutrients.” – Sean Killingsworth [16:01]

4. Practical Solutions for Families and Communities

• How to Create Phone-Free Spaces:

  “You don’t have to quit social media. You don’t have to get a flip phone… Just put [devices] all away and be present.” – Sean Killingsworth [19:21]

  • Parents can model this at home, at playdates, and in their communities.
  • Essential that adults put their phones away, too, to “dictate the behavior of the space” [21:00+].
• Reconnect Movement Chapters:
  • Open to any age—high schools, colleges, local communities, even multi-generational gatherings.
  • Events include hikes, games, or just unstructured hangouts, with a phone valet system [10:14].

5. Analogies, Memorable Quotes & Cultural Commentary

• Caged Chickens Analogy:
  • Kids reared in screen-based, structured settings are like chickens in cages—released into freedom, they struggle to adjust. Their fumbling isn’t incompetence, it’s adaptation [46:33].

    “Have some compassion. As soon as they’re put in the right environment, anyone can fall right back into organic, natural, good connection.” – Sean Killingsworth [47:22]

• Performance and Surveillance:
  • Even simple mischief of past generations—streaking, ding dong ditching, TP-ing a house—has vanished, because the “internet is forever.”

    “Nobody streaks anymore because everybody would videotape it… It just shows a change in freedom.” – Ginny Yurich [42:06]

• Lost Adventures & Bonding:
  • Sean and Ginny reminisce about how silly pranks once formed deep friendships; that rite of passage is gone.

6. Workforce and Life Outcomes

• Impaired Social Adaptation:
  • Gen Z’s comfort level with real-world interactions is so reduced that they face hiring discrimination and workplace struggles (with supporting statistics shared) [51:35].

    “Companies will have to adapt: phone-free teams, breakrooms, workplaces.” – Sean Killingsworth [55:46]

• Dating in the Digital Era:
  • Dating is mediated by apps; actual “blind dates set up by friends” are almost extinct for Gen Z [62:36].

    “That’s never happened to me, by the way. I don’t know anyone that’s happened for.” – Sean Killingsworth [62:36]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Emotional Impact of Screentime:

  "We’re fish that don’t know we’re wet." – Sean Killingsworth [36:45]

• On Social Media's Transformation:

  “The focus when going out is: how can we capture this, post this, get social credit for it? If you don’t post, it’s assumed you did nothing.” – Sean Killingsworth [32:12]

• Ginny's Reflection:

  “No one protects childhood. You get one childhood—and no one protected it, for you or them.” – Ginny Yurich [05:22]

• On Cultural Comparison:

  "In the 1970s, if I’d said we’d have no-smoking restaurants and vending machines wouldn’t sell cigarettes, no one would’ve believed me. We’ll view phones in schools the same way." – Sean Killingsworth [27:28, 64:12]

• Advice for Parents:

  “Create a sacred space—just play, no iPads. Kids will adapt like that. It’s the space dictating behavior—not the screen.” – Sean Killingsworth [21:37]

• On Future Outlook:

  "The change is starting now. In ten to twenty years, we’ll look back at phones in schools like we now do at smoking in hospitals.” – Sean Killingsworth [64:12]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Sean’s childhood story: [04:17]
• Why good phone habits fail: [05:59]
• Phone-free spaces & Reconnect Movement: [09:30, 10:14]
• Impact of one phone out—‘smoking’ analogy: [13:16]
• Mental health/malnourished connection analogy: [16:01]
• Practical tips for families: [21:00, 19:21]
• Analogies: caged chickens; lost mischief: [46:33, 42:06]
• Social media & being “on stage”: [32:12–34:40]
• Gen Z workforce struggles: [51:35]
• Dating, decline of friend-set blind dates: [57:49, 62:36]
• Vision for the future: [64:12–64:44]

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Action Steps & Resources

• Start or join a Reconnect Movement chapter: Available for schools or communities of any age [09:30, 19:21, 64:46].
• Try a phone-free playdate or event—adults included: Model what you want to see [21:37].
• Check out Sean’s emotional keynote (recommended for parents & teens): [08:10, 28:18]
• Website & GoFundMe: reconnectmovement.com
• Further reading: Freya India's "Animoya" piece on nostalgia for connection never experienced, recommended in After Babel [15:37].

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Closing Thoughts

Sean urges empathy—from parents, teachers, and older generations—for the unprecedented pressures kids face today, while offering practical, hopeful strategies for reclaiming real-world connection. The episode’s analogies (cigarette smoke, caged chickens, “fast food” friendship) are evocative, making it clear that the solution is collective: carve out phone-free habitats, and the magic of real relationship—the “beautiful world”—returns.

“Just take my word for it—in ten, twenty years, this problem will look entirely different.” – Sean Killingsworth [64:12]

Transcript

[Sean Killingsworth]

Oh, it's a beautiful world.

[Jenny Urch]

Ain't nothing.

[Sean Killingsworth]

On screen that's ever gonna be this view oh, it's a beautiful world and I just want to share with I just want to share with you this beautiful world Such a beautiful.

[Jenny Urch]

Hey everyone, thanks for hanging out with me today. Before we begin, I want to take a minute to set the stage for this conversation because it's an important one. Today's episode is with Sean Killingsworth and it's about something we rarely pause long enough to really sit with what it actually feels like to grow up in a world where childhood happens on a screen, social life happens online, and privacy barely exists at all. Sean gives voice to an experience most adults never lived in, and he does it with clarity, empathy and hope. This is one of those conversations that helps you understand why kids are struggling, not just that they are I think many of you will finish this episode wanting to share it immediately. Before we jump in, I want to invite you to a few practical tools that support everything we're talking about today. Our free 20261000 hours outside tracker sheets are available now. They are simple but powerful, designed to help families reclaim time, build rhythm, and make real life visible again in a screen saturated world. You can Download them at 1000hoursoutside.comTrackers if paper trackers aren't thing our 1000hours outside app is available on iOS and Android. It is our family run app. It is consistently top ranked and right now it is on sale for just $25 for the entire year, which comes out to about two bucks a month to help your family lower screen dependence and prioritize real world connection. And for a limited time, our 2026 kickoff pack is available inside the 1000 hours outside bundle. The bundle includes over $800 worth of outdoor friendly resources and is available through January 12th. You can check it out using the link that's waiting for you in the show notes. All right, this is a conversation that matters. Let's get into it.

[Sean Killingsworth]

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[Jenny Urch]

The 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Urch. One of my favorite guests we've ever had is back. Sean Killingsworth, welcome.

[Sean Killingsworth]

Thank you. Hi. Good to be here.

[Jenny Urch]

Favorite. Just such a favorite guest, Sean. I think that part of the reason is because there's a lot of parents that listen in, and they are parents who are millennials or Gen X. And so they did not grow up in a world steeped in technology. It came in, in later adolescence, maybe it came in, in college or early adulthood. And so while we can try and put ourselves in your shoes, which I don't feel like anybody does too much, we can try to, we can't really understand super well what it is like to grow up in a day and age where every single child has a smartphone and every single child can take a picture of you and upload it to a social media site where you can be bullied online, where people can make fake accounts. And you came on and just did such an incredible job of teaching empathy, of teaching empathy, of, of helping people to be empathetic to what that's like. And so you have this incredible thing that you've come up with called the Reconnect movement, where on college campuses, and I'm sure high schoolers even, you know, are committing to come together and to have experiences where no one has a cel phone with them. And it is just changing lives. Been featured in the New York Times, USA Today, Time, Business Insider. You're doing keynotes because the other episode is, is a long time ago and people don't tend to scroll back. I would love if you give us a little bit of your backstory. You talked about your own childhood, and the story that really stuck out to me, Sean, was the one where you went to the after school program and you were like, so excited to play and like, everyone's on a Nintendo DS and you're like, what the heck? So can you even start that young?

[Sean Killingsworth]

Yeah, absolutely. So it's, it's a great allegory for, for the future that I was going to face. But so I essentially, you know, as a homeschool kid growing up, so my mom had kind of signed me up for an after school program to hang out with some other kids because I was very social, but, you know, just didn't get as many opportunities. And so I was just unbelievably excited to play with all these other kids. And we toured the place actually when it was empty, just like on a day before to see if it was going to be right fit. And they had, you know, like Lincoln Logs, Legos, stuffed animals, like huge jungle gym, like all this stuff to play. And I was just like, oh, my gosh, this is going to be the best thing ever. And then I got there and I was so excited to play with all these other kids. And, you know, like you mentioned, they every single kid had a Nintendo DS at the time. And, like, Pokemon was this huge thing and just everybody had one except for me. And so what happened was I was just sitting there in the middle of this, you know, common room, and everybody was sitting around playing Pokemon, and I just. I had no one to play with. And it was kind of like, what's the point of having all these toys if I don't have anyone to play with? You know? So it was tough.

[Jenny Urch]

You talk about. It's like, you get one childhood. We all do. We get one childhood, and you're so excited to go and play. And no adults protected that for you. There was and didn't protect it for the other kids either. There was not one adult that stepped in and was like, look, there's all these toys around. Let's just put these screens away. So one of the things that you talk about, I think, is critically important, John, is adults will say to you, now you're in your early 20s, but have said to you over the years and. And probably even still, well, just have good phone habits. Just good. Have your own good tech habits. And you're like, I tried all those things. I tried the flip phone. I tried having all these good tech habits. Can you tell us why that does not work?

[Sean Killingsworth]

Oh, man. So this is so important right now, and it's a pivotal, A pivotal perspective shift that needs to occur when looking at this problem. So if you take the example of what I ran into, even with just the ds, you know, if you pretend the DS is a phone and I'm going into this summer camp with no phone at all, no ds. I have perfect habits, but because there's no one around me that's playing, I just don't have the same opportunity to go experience the world around me. So, you know, it blows up even bigger when you go to high school, you know, in college, which is where I really interacted with this even more intensely. Where, you know, I went into school, I did the whole social media, smartphone thing. It was not for me. I always felt anxious. I never really felt connected with people. So I decided to get a flip phone and I was like, awesome. I'm going to live my, you know, 80s movie dream, high school dream, you know, and I'm going to go make friends and talk to people. Only in person, Right. But what I discovered was it was exactly like that aftercare school program I went into school, everybody was constantly on their phones. The whole time I was trying to start conversation with people, trying to talk to people, trying to make friends. And it was just so hard because everyone not only was on their phones, literally at the same time I was talking to them while I was trying to have a conversation. But then afterwards, if I'd have a good conversation with someone, they manage their entire social life through Snapchat and Instagram. So because I have a flip phone, it's so difficult for me to even have a friend group or have friendship because everybody manages that through group chats and plans and things like that. So the real problem is not that we're Gen Z is spending too much time on our phones, it's that we don't have spaces where we're free of our phones. And then what happens when you take our phones away is. And it doesn't have to be like this hostile thing, it's just, let's have a space without phones. Which is what Reconnect does. And that magic and that social connection and that presence comes right back. Just as long as you've given the opportunity to be in a space. Like imagine if there was no Game Boys in that, you know, or no DS's in that after school program, you know, we would have all played with those toys. We would all had a blast. You know, all it needs is just to set them aside for a while and kind of create this place where the natural, organic forms of connection can regrow.

[Jenny Urch]

I mean, this is so much pressure because one of the things you talked about and you. If people go to your website, there's a couple of things they can find on your website they can go to Reconnect Movement. First of all, you have a GoFundMe that people can check out there because you talk about how your generation has had their entire childhood and adolescence burned down. So if you have some extra cash on hand and you want to contribute, this is a good cause. Reconnect Movement. You can also start a new chapter. There's an application there. But you can also then listen to this keynote that you did at James Madison last year. And one of the things you said was, and I thought this was an interesting take that I, I wouldn't have considered. So, you know, I can start to empathize and be like, what might as must it be like? You know, like, I rolled out of bed in the morning, my bus came at 6:15. Sean. So that is so early for high school. 6:15. So I would roll out of bed. I, you know, I never got in the habit of doing my hair or makeup. It was so early. And I would roll out of bed in whatever clothes are on the floor. I mean, that's what I wore to school. And so I can empathize and think, like to know that someone could take a picture of you at any moment, that is so awful. But here's one thing that I didn't consider, and you talk about this in that keynote, was you said, okay, so you say, I'm going to have a flip phone and I'm just going to go to school now. I can't interact with people on Instagram. I can't interact on Snapchat. But you also said this. You said if you don't have a phone, you might be seen as suspicious.

[Sean Killingsworth]

Yeah, essentially. So, I mean, well, really quick, too, before I get into this, I just want to make it clear to people that are wanting to start a chapter as well. We start chapters in high schools, colleges, and in any local community. So if you're not in school, if you're in your mid to late 20s, you know, or, you know, 30 plus.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah.

[Sean Killingsworth]

40S, anyone can start a chapter. Parents, you know. So, anyway, just want to make that clear. Oh, okay.

[Jenny Urch]

All right. Let's stick on that for one second because actually, that's phenomenal. We didn't talk about that last time because it's been a couple years.

[Sean Killingsworth]

It's new.

[Jenny Urch]

And the premise is. I love it. The premise is, hey, we're going to get together. We might go on a hike, which really fits with this audience. We might get together and just talk. We might get together and play cards. We might go play a soccer game. But the premise is we're going to get together for a specified period of time and no one's going to have a phone.

[Sean Killingsworth]

And the real thing that makes the magic occur is when it's not on the participants to use their willpower to do so. So, you know, whoever's managing the events in our communities, we have what we call a phone valet system. So whoever's hosting, they have a nice little place that they store phones, and we pass out a little ticket. You get your number for your phone, and it's just like valeting your car. You know, you can pick up your phone if you need to take a call or go check it during the event. You can check it in or out, but just allowing one person to have the responsibility, almost like a designated driver for the Event, you know, you don't have to worry about your phone. You know, you get to just enjoy it. Because if you do it with just. People have it in their pocket, it doesn't create the same safe environment where everybody knows and has the feeling that they know that they're in a space that's. That's fully for human connection.

[Jenny Urch]

What does it do for you?

[Sean Killingsworth]

Creating a human connection habitat.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah, I can imagine you, like, you can kind of just feel it, but. But what's interesting to me, Sean, is that, like, there is a feeling that occurs when you're with people and everyone is present and no one is on their phone. We felt it. I don't know if we talked about this or even done it. We went on this river trip to Moab, Utah, where you float down the river for five days. It got a bunch of different options, and you. There's like. You can't be on the phone because there's no cell service. Cell service. You're in the mid of nowhere. And. And it was remarkable to be in that environment, John. Like, I hadn't been in an environment like that since I was a kid, and then my daughter experienced it. Then our whole family went back because it was so cool, but everybody got to experience it. Is it a thing, Sean? And I would imagine the answer is probably yes. Where some of your peers or younger have not ever had that experience until they come to a reconnect event.

[Sean Killingsworth]

Correct. And that's one of the reasons that they break attendance records at almost every school they go to is because this is something where students don't know that they're starving of real connection until they experience what it's like at a reconnect event. Because in the way I would describe it, of what happens when. When this. When the space is created. You know, I can only imagine what it was like to grow up in the 70s and 80s going to restaurants, office buildings and airplanes, when everybody was smoking in all spaces. Right. You're just constantly breathing in cigarette smoke, whether you're a smoker or not, whether you have perfect smoking habits, regardless. And so the way that you can describe it is imagine, you know, your entire upbringing have just been breathing in smoke, breathing in smoke, breathing in smoke. Then you get to go into a room where everybody's here hanging out, and you get to just breathe clearly and cleanly. It's the same kind of thing. And instead of feeling a burning in your throat or, you know, developing cancer, you know, you're experiencing, you know, micro distractions that are not allowing Anyone to truly build any sort of momentum and connection with each other. And they're just constantly isolated right next to each other. And so no space can truly feel like you can take a deep breath of connection because there's no moments of, of elongated, just uninterrupted, fully free connection.

[Jenny Urch]

I love the smoking example because I grew up then like I grew up in. You are probably are too young. Like I grew up going into restaurants where they would say smoking or non smoking. And the problem is, is that everything is actually smoking. Like even if you choo smoking. And I remember because I the smell like it does really, it bothers me quite a bit especially and it bothers my mom. And so like sometimes you would be you, you're right next to them, like you're in the non smoking section, but the smoking section is literally right next to you. So sometimes you'd be like, well, we have, we can't even sit at this table. Like we need to have a table that's a little bit further away, but in a, in a space that's a restaurant or a public space or whatever. Even if you say this is one section and this is another section, the smoke still goes.

[Sean Killingsworth]

Right.

[Jenny Urch]

So it's very analogous, if that's a word to this, to this conversation. Because, you know, even if one person pulls out a phone across the room, you're exactly right.

[Sean Killingsworth]

All of a sudden the entire space is no longer safe. And that feeling of presence, not only does it send just a possibility of I could be videoed, but it also sends a rippling reminder to everyone of whatever their phone creates for them. As far as emotions, as far as reminders, as far as like, oh my gosh, there's all those things I have to do. It just immediately sends everyone into defend mode. If I'm using, to quote Jonathan Haidt, you know, he talks about defend mode versus discover mode. And you know, being in discover mode is just what Reconnect creates in people. You don't think about all the things that your phone is going to ask of you or require of you or even just the nervous system. You know, learn tics that are, you know, going off in your body when you see a phone or see your phone.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah.

[Sean Killingsworth]

And I think that that just completely changes things for the space.

[Jenny Urch]

So then talk about, well, I want to stay here just for one more minute before we go back to this. Like, you're almost seen as weird to walk up and start a conversation. I have a phone which is so heartbreaking for kids, but can you talk about Then it's like for me, going down the river and no one has a phone because no one has service for five days is nostalgic because that's how I grew up. For my daughter is brand new, you know, because she's grown up in a world and she's Gen Z and I got kids that are Gen Alpha. Like they've grown up in this different world. What do people say?

[Sean Killingsworth]

Yeah. So, I mean, the, the response, honestly is. Is pretty crazy because. Well, first of all, I just want to recommend the feeling of nostalgia for something you've never experienced. The word is animoya. And Freya India wrote this piece in After Babel, Jonathan Heights substack that is absolutely incredible. Everybody should go check it out. If you can put a link. I forget the exact name, but I think it's a feeling of nostalgia or something we've never experienced.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah, and I'll try and find it and throw the link in.

[Sean Killingsworth]

Sure, yeah, absolutely. But I mean, the response has been, you know, I didn't, I didn't know that I needed this, but this is it, you know, that's essentially the feeling and the thing that happens because, you know, it's like exactly what we're talking about. Like, they've never accepted. Experienced it, you know, and definitely not on a large scale. And it's kind of like with smoking, you know, smoking sections are just one step. You know, they still leave the reconnect event and they go right back out into the social wasteland where everyone around them still has their phones and everything. So, I mean, it's a step in the right direction. But I'm just trying to, you know, kind of show what it feels like to the moment of reprieve and relief when you do find a space of reconnect. Because not only is it such a relief, but it's a relief that they've never experienced and didn't know was possible. And I think this large mental health crisis that Gen Z is in is almost like we're all malnourished and we don't even know it. We don't even know that we can eat real food. We're just kind of, you know, that's what I would compare. You know, connecting in the social wasteland or connecting through social media is like eating fast food for your connection. You know, if you're connecting in a space where, where everybody has their phone, nobody's really getting a chance to fully connect and be present. And so almost all of the kind of, you could say, like, connection nutrients are being sapped from that space. And you know, it's the same thing when you're texting or on Snapchat, you know, you're not really connecting with someone. You know, you're, you're both putting up your fake front by the best text message you can craft or the best picture you can take. You're not in the moment, you're not being yourself. You're fully present of your or aware of yourself and self conscious the entire time throughout those interactions. It's not the same feeling of just pure connection and flow with a group of people that you really enjoy, which is something we so deeply need, everyone needs, but so deeply in this, you know, time of adolescence and young adulthood.

[Jenny Urch]

I thought often about the fact that, you know, I mean I didn't even we're talking about getting outside but like I play the piano and I like to read and I was the same as a child too, but I spent a lot of time outside as well because that's just what you did. And you know, so a child today who also likes to play the piano and read possibly could never go outside because the other time could easily be filled with indoor things and because no one else is outside playing. So the culture has changed. And I, I often wonder, Sean, what do you do when you, let's say you become a parent or you hit your 20s and you hit these rough patches and you have no knowledge of what does being out in nature feel like? Like that's a place where I feel calm and free and like you don't have that foundation or you have no experience at all of being in a social environment that is thriving. Like you talk the other one you call social wasteland. You know, this is like the thriving one where you get to be yourself and you can say things and not worry that you're going to be videotaped and, and all of these types of things. So I think it's critically important that as parents, our kids at least have a taste of it. Like at least they've experienced it some. So can you give some advice for parents of younger kids? So you know, you're talking about these reconnect events, do them as a community. But you could also just as a start now start with the culture, start with talking to your kids about saying like how about when everybody comes over, no one does screens, that type of thing. What do you think?

[Sean Killingsworth]

Yep, absolutely. So this is the in, you know, the crux of the current problem and the current solution and it is reconnects entire solution is all about let's do it now. Let's not try to spend less time on our phones later in the future. Let's just put them all away and be together here now. You don't have to, you know, do anything. You don't have to quit social media. You don't have to delete your phone or get a flip phone. There's no barrier to entry other than your own willingness to put them down and be, you know, and create a space for this. Right? And so, you know, the problem is, is kind of characterized by the fact that these kids, you know, they're. You're sitting at home, or even these families and parents, you know, you can not leave your house and that, honestly, I don't blame anyone for doing that. That's what the world is kind of pushing us towards, right? The problem is that out in the world and out in our neighborhoods, out in our communities, out in our cities, in our schools, there aren't these spaces that are truly just dedicated to connection. And the spaces that are supposed to be that way are just full of phones. And so the actual value of them are completely sapped away, and they don't feel that way when you're actually there. And so, you know, it's a tough one to face because when you really look at it, if you're not in a space that has no phones in it, in my opinion, that social connection is garbage, you know, that is not, you know, as valuable even in the slightest as it could be. Right? And so when you look out at the world, it can look kind of bleak because we don't have barely any spaces for that. But that's why this is the crux of the problem. And the solution right now is because every parent who's listening can go out into their neighborhood. And it might be challenging, but you got to get parents on board, show them this podcast to have a play date with you and your. Your kids that are, you know, kind of the same age or whatever it might be, however young they are. And the. The key way to make this actually work and basically just create a reconnect event for you and the families in your neighborhood is to have the parents also put their phones away during the event. If everybody goes in and creates a reconnect event and admits themselves, it's not about habits. I can go on my phone as much as I want. As soon as this playdate is over. It's just about creating a sacred space. Then all of a sudden, your kids are now in a space where they don't have an iPad. And they can't point at you and say, can I use your phone? It's like, no. You know, honey, this is for. This is for being off of technology. Kids will adapt like that. They'll be like, oh, okay. And then they'll find a stick and they'll jump on a hay bale or they'll climb a tree or whatever it is, because that space is now dictating the behavior, not the screen. It's the connection and the people that are there. You know, the thing that I always, you know, kind of compare it to in the way that I break it down is when there are phones present in space. That's what I call a screen habitat. Screens are allowed to dictate the behavior of that space. So, you know, it is totally normal, especially in my generation at college. I mean, you just got to walk on a college campus for five minutes, but you walk in the cafeteria and it's completely normal and accepted for people to just be staring at their phones while someone's talking to them, or for you to start a conversation with someone and then halfway through you talking, they just pull out their phone. You're just expected to, like, sit there, be weird and stare at them, or go on your phone yourself. And so that is a screen habitat. That behavior is normal and accepted in a human connection habitat, which is what I, what I call, you know, what we created Reconnect with a free, you know, phone free space. All of a sudden, human connection dictates the behavior in that space. So if you're sitting next to someone, they start a conversation with you, and halfway through, you just kind of start looking at your knees and you're just like, ignoring what they're saying. That's weird. It would be more normal for you to engage in human connection because all of a sudden, human connection is driving the behavior of that space. So you can create it here and now by having the courage to go out and create it and do it with, you know, we'll help you start a reconnect chapter.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah, you can do it today. Are you going to write a book?

[Sean Killingsworth]

Yes, actually. Good. Yeah, I. I am. You know, the. The details are. Will come out, but yes.

[Jenny Urch]

Good, because you should write a book because everyone needs to read this. This show is sponsored by Better Help. This new year does not require a new you. Maybe it just requires a less burden to you. For me, one of the things I'm constantly working to let go of is the pressure to do everything perfectly, to have the right answers, to do the perfect podcast interview, to never feel behind and yes, even to hit our own 1000 hours outside goal each year. And the truth is that kind of pressure can get heavy and I'm sure you have similar scenarios in your own life that you can relate to. Therapy can help you understand what you're carrying and understand why, your motivations, your relationships and your emotions from an unbiased outside perspective. That's why I appreciate Better Help. Their therapists are fully licensed in the US and work under a strict code of conduct. BetterHelp also does the hard part up front, like matching you with a therapist based on a short questionnaire so you can focus on what actually matters, your goals, and if it's not the right fit, you can switch therapists anytime. With over 30,000 therapists and more than 5 million people served worldwide, BetterHelp has an average 4.9 out of 5 rating across 1.7 million client reviews. Better Help makes it easy to get matched online with a qualified therapist. Sign up and get 10% [e-mail] 1000 hours that's B T T R H lp.com 1000 hours the new year always feels like a reset for me. Not just for schedules and routines, but for our home too. I want our space to feel calm, functional and ready for the season ahead. Essentially the opposite of what it feels like over the holidays, with a stream of parties and gatherings, family visits that are fun and meaningful but also add to the craziness. And honestly, Wayfair makes that so easy. If you're refreshing bedding, upgrading towels, organizing kids rooms, or finally tackling storage, Wayfair really does have everything in one place. I love being able to shop for practical things like mattresses, bathroom storage and kitchen essentials and add in those finishing touches that make a home feel cared for. This season I'm focusing on simple, cozy updates. We are refreshing bedding and adding a few accent pillows and mirrors to our living space. Nothing over the top, just pieces that feel warm and lived in and inviting. I was honestly surprised by how many styles and price points there were. It made it easy to stay on budget without sacrificing quality or style. And I love how convenient it is to find everything from kids room updates to work, from home setup to storage solutions for all the outdoor gear that somehow always piles up. Get organized, refreshed and back on track this new year. For way less, head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com Wayfair Every style, every home. Some weeks I just don't have the time or the brain space for real meal planning. I want to eat healthier. I care about what we're putting in our bodies. But by dinner time, I am tired and overwhelmed. And that's where Hungry Root has been such a gift. Hungry Root is basically like having a personal nutrition coach and grocery shopper rolled into one. I told them what we like, what we don't like, and what my health goals are, and they planned everything for me. The recipes, of which there are over 50,000. The groceries, all of it. And the more we use it, the smarter it gets, tailoring things even better to our tastes. I love that it makes healthy eating simple without overthinking it. Whether you're trying to eat cleaner, get more protein, or reduce inflammation, Hungry Root does the work for you without junk ingredients and with high quality meats and seafood. And if you're trying to stick with healthier habits past January, which aren't we all, this really helps make it doable right now. Take advantage of this exclusive offer. For a limited time, get 40 off your first box, plus get a free item in every box for life. Go to hungryroot.com 1000hours and use code 1000hours. That's hungryroot.com 1000hours. Code 1000hours to get 40% off your first box and a free item of your choice for life. You know, when you talked about spaces designed for connection, this is like the next ultimate business idea, really. And I loved how you likened it to smoking because you had said that at some point, if someone. And I would have thought this because I grew up in the smoking, non smoking section at restaurants, I would have thought, there is no way. There is no way that restaurants will ever go smoke free. And when it happened, I was shocked. Shocked. And then now that's the norm. So almost a step in the right direction would be like in a restaurant, do you want to sit in the phone section or the non phone section?

[Sean Killingsworth]

Right.

[Jenny Urch]

I actually think businesses would skyrocket.

[Sean Killingsworth]

No, you're absolutely right.

[Jenny Urch]

And then eventually that would become the norm.

[Sean Killingsworth]

Yeah, yeah. And we're, we're heading that way. It's completely inevitable, in my view. The same way smoking was, you know, in the 1970s. If I was sitting on a plane telling someone we were not gonna be able to smoke hardly anywhere, you know, in 50 years, no one would believe me. You know what I mean? And then here we are, you know, like thousands of college campuses throughout the world are tobacco free now. And you Know you, you're hard pressed to find anywhere to smoke, even outside sometimes, you know, so it's kind of, it'll be different, it'll look different in the future because, you know, these devices aren't just, you know, kind of like a smoke. It'll look different because the devices do have merit in what they can help us achieve. They just need to, you know, kind of find their slot correctly in society where it doesn't harm all of human connection. Because that is clearly not working for our species. Right.

[Jenny Urch]

There has to be spaces with no phones. And like you said, it might be challenging, but so it was to change the smoking laws, that was challenging too, but absolutely worth it. Okay, I want to go back to the features of the wasteland because I do think the empathetic, the, the empathy part is really important. Like why are we still doing this? And like no one's really thinking about what is it like for these kids. So you say that these are some of, in your skimming the surface and you get really emotional. People should watch the, the video. It's right on your website. And you did this keynote at James Madison. And I mean it's, it's a very emotional keynote that you give. So you're talking about some of the features of this social wasteland and you say you're just skimming the surface. But one of them you say is if we put our phones down, there isn't anyone to talk to first of all. And we are seen as suspicious when we're not on our phone. Yeah, talk about that.

[Sean Killingsworth]

So it's kind of like I mentioned with, with screen habitats, you know, it's the, the, the current advice for Gen Z is put your phone away, you know, and have better phone habits.

[Jenny Urch]

Like just go start a conversation, Sean.

[Sean Killingsworth]

Yeah, exactly. Go outside and talk to people. Go outside. And not only is that, that advice doesn't work.

[Jenny Urch]

No one is outside.

[Sean Killingsworth]

Yeah, it's, it's shaming and it creates a circle of shame for my entire generation.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah.

[Sean Killingsworth]

And so you know what I mean by it's suspicious is exactly kind of like a screen habitat where if you are the only one off your phone, there's actually someone from a reconnect event who attended, told me this about how she attended her first reconnect event at her school at uf and she was like, oh, this is awesome. I loved this. This was so much fun. I'm going to be off my phone more as well. So she said that she's, she rides the bus into, you know, some classes, transport or whatever. And it's a place where she knew, like, the most people are on their phone. So she's like, okay, I'm going to be different. I tried this reconnect thing. I'm going to go off my phone. And so what she found was she was sitting on this bus, the only person not on her phone. And everybody else is silent, looking her phone, like, kind of glancing up, you know, at each other. And she said that she got, like, tons of weird looks when she was on the bus. Like people were looking at her suspiciously because she was sitting there staring at the wall. And that is kind of. It comes off as weird when the normal thing to do is check out and ignore everything in your space. It comes off as strange because the environment is what needs to switch to solve this problem, not a personal habit.

[Jenny Urch]

That's right. So you say if you want to go up to someone, there's also just barriers. Case in point, every other person's on their phone. So you're overcoming a barrier every time you say either it's their AirPods or it's their phone, or it's both. So there's this part of it. This is just one of the small features. The next thing that you said, which, I mean, this is something that we've actually never talked about on this show, John and I read recently, I can't remember where I read it, but someone was talking about how when Facebook first came out and it was called something different, it might have even been called the Facebook or whatever when Mark Zuckerberg came out and you had to be in college to get it. Like, you couldn't get an account unless you were in college. And the point of it was like, oh, you go to college, then you go off into your different stages of life and you can keep up with your old friends. So for a very, very short period of time, the purpose was connection, or at least that's what it was sold as. I don't know if the powers that be knew that this was going to happen or not, although it is interesting to me that the tech gurus like Steve Jobs did not allow their kids on those devices long before the research came in. So that signals to me that they did know. Anyway, when you're in this situation where this thing seems like it's for, like, keeping in contact with old friends or people that have moved away at some point, it switches. And you said it like this. And I've heard people talk about, like, it's not that anymore. It's almost like you're On a stage. So you say if we do anything social, we feel pressure to film it and post it. So we are not actually enjoying anything, because while we are doing things, we are only thinking about how it will be judged.

[Sean Killingsworth]

Yeah, and that sounds really harsh, and it is, and it's more true than I think many people dare to admit. Because what I mean by if we do anything social, you know, there's pressure to film it or you're going to be filmed is like, you know, if you're hanging out with your friends, let's say you're going to the beach. You know, the emphasis when you're going to the beach or going out and doing something fun or cool with your friends, especially I think if you're in high school, then the focus falls upon, okay, how are we going to capture this and how are we going to post this on Instagram, and how are we going to get social credit for doing this? Because the thing is, when you're in this environment where it rewards kind of being present on social media versus being present in the moment, you go and do an activity, it no one care. You don't get anything out of it unless you post something. And so, you know, the way that you actually get people to interact with you is I post Snapchat videos of me and my friends at the beach. Then people will swipe up on my story and they'll start conversations with me there because of what I'm doing and what I'm posting. But when we're in person and I'm back at school, no one's like, what'd you do over the weekend? You know, they already know what everybody did over the weekend. And if you didn't post it, it's weird. And you must have not done anything. I'm not going to ask you, because that's not normal. So it's just like this. This kind of experience for the person who's in it. And I remember this well because I did the whole social media thing my freshman year of high school is. It is exhausting. And you never just get to be in the moment. And if you. Let's say you are. And I experienced this when I forgot my flip phone. Let's say I want to do something crazy or I'm at a party and I want to jump on the table and start dancing. You know, everybody pulls their phones out immediately and starts filming you. And it just makes you think, like, who's gonna see this? My mom could see this. You know, who's. Where's this going to Be posted. All of a sudden I'm completely self conscious, not having fun anymore and I just want to stop. Or, you know, I just kind of embrace it and just become kind of constantly anxious and decide to just rebel. And then I'm doing everything knowing that I could be harmed. And then it's just, I guess, you know, it's just. It's just the environment is wrong for true presence.

[Jenny Urch]

You say there is nothing else, there is no other option. And you say, you know, that either you're going to be. If you're not filming, then you might be filmed. And at best people are going to comment on it, but at worst it's going to be weaponized. Oh, you use the word stage there too. We have to constantly be on stage. This would be anxiety producing for any human. We aren't built to handle this level of scrutiny every single day. We never get a break.

[Sean Killingsworth]

It's true. I mean, you know, I think it's. This is something that is very difficult, I imagine. And my mom's told me, because I talked to her about this and I've told her tons of things and she's like, still, sometimes I realize how deep this goes for you and your generation. So I think it can be challenging for some adults to process and people who are, you know, kind of came up before this. There is no reprieve or relief from this feeling of being on stage. And not only the feeling of being on stage, but the feeling of curating your own self and your own life in every single thing you do. And I think that, you know, this is something that's been said so many times and everybody talks about this, but the point that I was trying to make there is like, imagine, really take a second, like close your eyes and imagine your childhood. All of the memories that you, you know, kind of experience, all the fun you had. Now imagine everybody was filming you with a camera that entire time. Like, you probably, first of all, you probably wouldn't be done half of it. And you know, it would have now, it would exist, exists here, now with you. Do you want that? No, no one wants that. Everybody says, and I hear this all the time, man, I'm so glad social media didn't come out when I was in high school, when I was in middle school, when I was in college.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah, everybody, everyone says that. And the only thing is that I think I would have been a famous piano player. Gotta be honest, other than I don't want any of it, I would have.

[Sean Killingsworth]

Blown up on TikTok. So, you know, and I, I think that when I hear people say that, you know, it's almost like they're bragging or like they're, they're saying like, oh, I'm so glad. You know, to me that just breaks my heart because.

[Jenny Urch]

Kind of an awful thing to say.

[Sean Killingsworth]

I know.

[Jenny Urch]

Very self centered, isn't it?

[Sean Killingsworth]

Well, from my perspective, I just, I feel very, very sad when I hear that because it confirms that the truth that I've theorized and believed. When I first interacted with this, when I got my flip phone and saw that there was no option for just like having free flowing fun, that there used to be a world where all being a kid was, was free flowing fun. I mean, obviously, you know, the, there's not that there was nothing hard, but what, I mean the difference between what we're experiencing now versus what they experience then that did exist and I did miss that. And there's no way for me to get that back, you know?

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah.

[Sean Killingsworth]

And so for, for me to kind of experience that, like that's the, the level that I want people to try to understand, if they are truly trying to understand me in my generation's experience, is to see that the level of devastation that, that would, that would create in you as a kid. And we don't even know what's happening. We're fish that don't know we're wet. You know, if you, if you say this to a kid, they don't even know. Like I said, people reconnect or experiencing this for the first time. They don't know there's an option to not be anxious all the time and constantly checking yourself and constantly self conscious and constantly curating ourselves. We don't even know that that's not that there's a world where we wouldn't have to do that because there really isn't right now.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah. That it didn't used to exist. And so for the people that are like, bummer for you, good thing I didn't have to have that. It's like, well, why aren't we making better decisions then? January always feels like a fresh start in our homeschool. It's that reset moment after the holidays where you're refining what worked, letting go of what didn't, and finding your rhythm again. Oh, and also you actually know what day it is again. As opposed to being in that holiday induced fog where time and space seem to just meld into nothing and everything all at once. One thing we've learned over the years is how important it is to meet each child exactly where they are. That's why IXL fits so naturally into our homeschool life. It adapts to each learner so one child can review last year's skills while another jumps ahead without pressure, comparison or busy work. I love how effortless it is as a parent. Everything is organized by grade and by topic, so I'm not digging through resources or reinventing the wheel. And the real time feedback is huge. Kids learn from mistakes immediately and the progress reports give clarity and confidence. As a guide, IXL covers math, language arts, science and social studies from pre K all the way through 12th grade and it grows right along with your child. It is flexible, proven and trusted by millions of families. Make an impact in your child's learning. Get IXL now and 1000 Hours Outside listeners can get an exclusive 20% off their IXL membership when they sign up today at www.ixl.com 1000hours Visit ixl.com 1000hours to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price as we step into a new year. And yes, take those first steps outside to kick it off. I always feel this pull to simplify, to reach for pieces that feel good, layer well and actually last. And that's why I've been loving Quince. Quince makes those wardrobe staples you reach for again and again. I'm talking about their Mongolian cashmere sweaters that feel like designer pieces without the designer price, 100% silk tops and skirts that instantly dress things up, and denim that's cut just right for everyday life. Their Italian wool coats are a standout too. Beautifully tailored, soft and made to last for years, not just one season. You can feel the quality in the details, the stitching, the fit, the fabric. Everything is thoughtfully designed to become a true wardrobe essential. I can't tell you how much I'm loving my new cashmere sweater. It's getting so much wear already and it's holding up beautifully. I've even picked up a few Quince pieces for home and travel and the quality has been just as impressive. And the best part? Quince uses premium materials from ethical, trusted factories and prices everything far below traditional luxury brands. Quince is a big hit around here and I know you'll love what they have to offer as well. So refresh your wardrobe with Quince. Don't wait. Go to quince.com outside for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-.com outside to get free shipping and 365 day returns quince.com outside okay. I interviewed this man and I. I thought about this after the interview. His name's Ian Morgan Cron, and he talks about Enneagram and he talks about actually addiction. He has a book called the Fix, and it's about addiction because there's a lot of things to be addicted to these days. He's a really good writer. So he. I don't know how old he is. Maybe he's in his 50s. He told this story about when he was in high school, he went streaking. And I don't even think that anybody does it anymore. This is what I thought about after the interview. I remember as a child, a couple times, people streaking. I remember being at a Tigers baseball game, and they run naked, run naked across the field, and then the cops would run after them. It happened at least twice that I remember as a child. And you're kind of like, oh, that's really funny. Like, you see someone's butt, they're just running across the field. And then the cops are chasing them down. Then they get pulled up and I like, I don't think anybody streaks anymore because everybody would videotape it, right? So this Ian, he was telling the story about when he was in high school. So it was way pre phones and they. He. Him and his friends were bored. It was a Friday night, he's with all his buddies, and they were like, we're. Let's go streaking. So they went to this. They went to this golf club, like a nice golf club where they were having their, like, yearly banquet. So he's like, everybody's in there. They're all dressed up. So they put on some ski masks. And this group of, I don't know, 10 high school guys, I think it's like his cross country team or something, they go streaking through this event with all these. It's hilarious. It's hilarious. So anyways, he's spending the night at a friend's, and he comes home the next morning. And the stories in his book, it's so funny. So he, you know, he says to his mom's, like, well, how was your night? He was like, oh, yeah, you know, we spent the night at so and so's and the friends were there. And she's like, did you do anything interesting? He's like, no, you know, we just spent the night.

[Sean Killingsworth]

Whatever.

[Jenny Urch]

Then he's like, what'd you do? And she was like, I was at dinner at the golf club. Great story.

[Sean Killingsworth]

And she was like, I could Recognize.

[Jenny Urch]

Your butt anywhere, you know, and so it was such a great story, but nobody would do that in this day and age. And that is an example of. It's stupid. And I don't even know if like street is that good, bad, does it really matter? I don't know. I mean, it's, it's indecent exposure. It's actually probably kind of awful, but, but back then it happened somewhat regularly to the point where I saw it in my childhood. And it just shows like a change in, I guess, freedom, you know, to be able to. It's a dumb example, but it's also kind of funny.

[Sean Killingsworth]

Well, I, I actually don't think it's a dumb example. I think it's the perfect example because we're talking about high school kids. They're dumb. They do dumb stuff for fun because they're in a time in their life where they can do these questionable, borderline, literally illegal things, you know, but think about like how much fun that must have been. But of course, if a cop catches a bunch of 16 year, like, are they really gonna like charge them and ruin their lives? Like, probably not. You know, they're gonna be like, yo, go to your parents house, you know, what are you doing? Or like, you know, do some punishment that's gonna expunge off the record when they're 18 or whatever. So. So it is a bit uncomfortable to say, like we're pro streaking.

[Jenny Urch]

What?

[Sean Killingsworth]

That feels weird. But it's because it's an act that is on the borderline of like what would be, you know, right by society or whatever it is. And this moment where you're a kid and you don't quite fit into society yet, you're, you're outside the bounds a little bit, you know, you're testing your, what you can do in the world. And it's like unhinged levels of ridiculously irresponsible fun that these generations were blessed to have is now lost to this generation. And so I think a more tame example that is a little less on the borderline would be ding dong ditching. Every single house now has a ring doorbell that is shown. And so no longer can you really ding dong ditch. And I remember growing up and being so sad about that and we still like did it, but it was much more like, it was much more nerve wracking.

[Jenny Urch]

Ah, totally. You can't TP somebody's house.

[Sean Killingsworth]

No, no, you get, you're on footage, you're on film. And, and so I never.

[Jenny Urch]

We did that several times in childhood. I mean, just, just throwing that toilet paper roll as high as you can and just watching it like fly through the sky and unravel and like if the people had big trees and then you drive by the next morning and it's just like half gone because they couldn't get it all out and you're just kind of laughing and you know you were the one who did it and nobody knows. You have a. You have a secret with your little group of friends.

[Sean Killingsworth]

Imagine the social bond that that creates. And not just the social bond, but the adventure. Like the way that you just lit up just now talking about that, talking about those adventures you had as a kid. And the way I'm sure he lit up when he's telling this story that's on the borderline of illegal when he was with his friends. You know, those moments, they give you this life and this life force and energy that as a kid you're meant to have an experience to energize you through the rest of your adult life. When these moments really can't happen anymore, regardless of whether there's phones or not. You know what I mean? And so this entire generation, no wonder we're so sad and, and depressed and lifeless because we are void of these, of many of these experience. Not saying it doesn't happen, but the way that it's been.

[Jenny Urch]

It doesn't. But it doesn't. And that's your point. Nobody dinged our ditches anymore. No one. Tps. I cannot remember the last time I've seen a home with TP toilet paper on it. But as a kid, it happened here and there, here and there. You drive by a home, be like, oh, they got TP last night. You know, that doesn't happen anymore. Nobody streaks. I've not seen that happen anywhere. Because, yeah, the footage is gonna. The Internet is forever. The footage will be there forever. So, yeah, the fact that you, you feel like you're constantly on a stage and you never get a break from it. Adults need to think through that. I want to talk about one other thing that you talk about is skimming the features of this social wasteland. You talk about how this is actually a big thing we talk about here, Sean, that this screen based environment and kids are outside for four to seven minutes a day. They're on screens for four to seven hours. It's screen based. It's also performance based. There's a lot of pressure to. Lot of adult directed activities. You're like, this isn't normal. This is not normal development. This is not an Optimal environment for normal healthy development and growing kids. So you liken it to chickens in cages versus chickens that are out free ranging. And the thought of, well, what happens when you let the caged chickens out? They're not automatically necessarily going to just be okay.

[Sean Killingsworth]

Yeah, this is, I mean these, these analogies are, are harshly spot on because the way I liken it to a chicken is, you know, imagine, you know, a normal free range chicken. It's growing up, it's running around, pecking around, scrapping for food, you know, doing what normal chickens would do. And then now you picture a chicken that grows up in what, like a, like a food plant where they're just kind of sitting in close contact confinement. They are fed, you know, just feed the whole time. You know, they just fatten themselves up. You know, they don't have any free range nature. They don't grow up like normal chickens. You know, we've always kind of seen those videos. So imagine that chicken is now sent out into the wild after an entire upbringing of having been just pumped full of this feed and no movement, you know, and they're, they're not going to be able to just, they're, you know, you wouldn't be surprised if they stumble, if they, if they meet challenges, if they can't do it right away, you know, and so I think that that is another way to express that what our generation is going through. When you say go outside, talk to people, what's the big deal? Go start a conversation, man, these kids can't talk these days. You know, it's just like that. That's one of the reasons Reconnect is designed the way it is to be so gentle with the new people that are coming into a Reconnect environment because we don't come in. And then, I mean, most often people that show up to Reconnect events for the first time are extremely like, you can almost see them shaking or like sweating or like look darting around like, you know, it's nerve wracking. And so I watch these kids and some of the most anxious kids that I see show up or not even kids like, you know, these are like 18, 19, 20 year old kids or students show up to Reconnect events. I remember distinctly this, this one group of two girls that showed up to one of the first Reconnect events we hosted at Rollins College. And they were like, they were there maybe 15 minutes early. I was there setting up and nobody had really showed up yet. And so we were kind of just sitting around making small talk, waiting for the event to happen. And it was like pulling teeth, you know, it was just like so awkward. I could tell they were just so anxious, you know, and, and then the event started, you know, I'm hosting it, whatever, going, maybe there's like 15, 20 people there. And halfway through the event, as I'm, you know, kind of facilitating, I look over at them and they're just like, this one girl is just laughing and smiling and talking with her hands and joking around with this person. I'm just like, what is happening? You know, this is, this is a totally different person I'm seeing emerge, right? And I think that, you know, it's, it's hard for sometimes for adults to get past this. Oh, man, I can't believe it's come to this. Where we have to put our phones away to connect. And the fact that we even, you know, people have a hard time to talk these days and they have to practice that, you know, that's so crazy. And to me, like, you know, step into our shoes. Imagine that fattened up chicken trying to work out for the first time and run around for the first time and scavenge for its own food for the first time. Like, have some compassion for us to get back into these spaces. And not only that, but be in the correct environment where, you know, we're not completely surrounded by phones the whole time that are stopping us from really being able to have, you know, a wealth of opportunities for connection and feeling safe in that connection, you know, and so I just always show it as that, you know, kind of that compassion for those new people coming in where as soon as they're put in the right environment, I have full faith that any kid, any student, any age, any adult can, will fall right back into organic, natural, good connection. That feels just, just amazing.

[Jenny Urch]

It's such a catch 22. It's really awful because you talked about in that keynote that you gave, you said you've been forced. I mean, these kids have basically been forced into these addictive, hostile environments at young ages. You know, you're like, even for someone who is a millennial and didn't get a phone until they were 16 or 14. But like, at that point they were just like, you know, you could text, but you had to like press the button a bunch of times. I mean, it changed so fast. You're like, these are now infiltrating elementary school. So your point about the Nintendo ds, It was like, that was a really young age that you were in this environment that was a. Already catering toward addictive Devices for kids. So you're forming your sense of self in these unnatural environments and it's just been this awful experience. And then, and then it's not your fault. Right? It's not your fault. And then you go off into the workforce. People are like, I don't want to hire anybody from Gen Z. You're like, this is awful. Yeah. You know, like there's no, there's no solution for it. And you're like, I just talked to this man named Tim elmore. He said 30% of managers report firing Gen Z employee within a first, within the first month of their start date. It's too much work to get them up to speed. Then he says that there's CEOs who instruct HR not to hire any young person right out of college. Only hire them after they've had at least one full time job to avoid the chasm between career and career and college. 3 and 10 managers report they avoid hiring Gen Z employees. 3 and 3 and 43 and 10 managers avoid hiring. 3 and 4 managers find Gen Z the most difficult population to work with as employees and like it's not their fault.

[Sean Killingsworth]

Yeah, yeah, that's man, I hadn't heard those statistics. I mean I imagine that was happening that you know, we do get a lot of flack for kind of coming into the workforce and being difficult to, you know, have conversations with things like that. And, and you know, I mean that, that, that is such a great example of, of not, you know, not having that compassion for, for the chicken. But at the end of the day that business is want it, they want results or whatever as quick as they can and this isn't giving it for them. And so you know, they just decide not to. But the, the thing that I would say is going to come out of this, which obviously is terrible for Gen Z right now and it's not solved, but is, is that these businesses now are, are going to have the opportunity to evolve. Like we were talking about before, where teams are going to become phone free, business offices are going to become phone free. They're going to have phone free break rooms for people to connect. Because the thing is, and I've talked to so many people in Gen Z that have had this experience where they show up in the workforce and they're like, they just, they've never had this experience before where they're supposed to talk to people and it's normal to talk to people this way. And so they go in and they're like, I have nothing to talk about. And they have to learn the skill of talking. And it takes them a little bit, but as soon as they do, they're like, oh, my gosh, this is so much better. I can't believe I never did this. You know, like, there was one time I had a conversation with a kid. He was in a college dorm, like, 18 years old, freshman. And I was. I was just asking him because I was there in at. For. For doing. To do a speech. So he was talking to me about it, and I wanted to ask him. So I said, hey, you know, if you think that everyone in your hall, you know, could put their phones away, would they. Or do they want to be on their phones all the time? He was like, oh, absolutely. Like, nobody wants to be on their phone. It's just. It's all you have. Like, it's the only option. Like, what are you supposed to do? Like, you have to be on it. And so I talked to him about that a little more, and he said, when I was in middle school, I was on my phone constantly, and I was constantly playing video games. I was just constantly watching movies and videos and just all day, every day. That's all I did. And then I got to high school, and my freshman year or sophomore year, he made some friends and he had a friend group for the first time. And he said, oh, my gosh, I can't believe what I missed out on. All those years in middle school and in early high school, this is so much better. I didn't know this was here, you know, and it just. It breaks my heart to hear that, you know, because those, those years of development are just. I mean, that's like some of the brightest moments that people remember throughout their whole lives. And this, this guy didn't even know that they were there for the taking, you know. And so I think it's that same thing. People run into it when they get into the workforce where they're around all these people who are native to talking, being normal, and, you know, kind of. Of having these. These conversations are just expected to be like, off the drop of a hat or, you know, really what I want to describe is like, the culture in Gen C is that talking is kind of optional, you know, if not like a last resort in person. Not a last resort, but it's definitely on the back burner. You know what I mean? Like, primarily the social credit lies with the interactions you have on social media and with Snapchat. And like you said, that is absolutely not our fault. That is something that. And all of these social media companies have been happy to onboard us onto these platforms. The younger the better. You know, they've said yeah, and, and.

[Jenny Urch]

The parents and the teachers and the, you know, people get mad when they, when we talk about the teachers and I guess rightfully so because they're also in a, in a bad environment as well. You know, you, it, that's tough. It's a, it's such a forceful current and yet, and yet the adults are still the ones who could have stood in the gap and did not. And, and here we have students who are then graduating from college and trying to enter the workforce and struggling. But your answer is the answer. It is these phone free environments that Tim Elmore in that book about Gen Z, he said that one of his suggestions was, and he talked about different companies that, that actually are having a lot of food and he's like, they've got a lot of food, they're going to bring in lunch. A lot of like getting around the table and eating lunch and that they give you free food but the rule is you can't eat it alone. And so if they should just add the rule you can't eat it alone.

[Sean Killingsworth]

Or with your phone, that would be incredible.

[Jenny Urch]

That would change the whole thing.

[Sean Killingsworth]

Right. And that's what I was kind of trying to say earlier with the innovation that's going to be available soon for these companies is what's going to come out of this is obviously they're going to have to hire Gen Z eventually. Right. And so what's going to happen is these policies that actually elevate connection for not just Gen Z but for everyone and that these are going to be, have to be adopted. You know, the more and more time goes on and it's absolutely phone free environments. And you know, one of the, just to speak to the parents and the teachers and that problem as well, you know, when, when you're a parent you're facing essentially the same thing that a kid is when they're getting a flip phone and going into school. You know, you're either on social media all the time feeling all the toxic emotions that come with it or you're have a flip phone and you are, you know, not able to, you know, you're super isolated because everybody's on social media. That's as a kid, right? As a parent you're either not allowing your kid to have social media which is probably going to create a hard rift to deal with in your relationship because they are facing that dilemma. You're basically by telling your kid you can't have Social media or smartphone, you're saying I'm going to make it extremely difficult, if not impossible for you to have friends. It's a lose lose situation. So the real, the real and only fix that is not a lose lose for both the kid and the parents is to have a phone free school.

[Jenny Urch]

That's right.

[Sean Killingsworth]

That's really like the only option. Or have phone free environments at home with, with people.

[Jenny Urch]

And so, yeah, this has gone on far too long.

[Sean Killingsworth]

Exactly.

[Jenny Urch]

Far too long. I was a teacher in 2007 and the kids had BlackBerries. It was two years before the iPhone came out. And they would hide them in their shirts and they would take photos of their tests and they would text them to the next, next kid that has their final the next hour. And even then it was like, well, this is clearly not a good idea. Clearly in 2007 and it's 20, 25, it's been 20 years almost. It is time. It has to be at a higher level. The Waldorf schools have done it. No screens at all. The kids aren't even supposed to watch TV from Sunday night to Thursday night or something like that. That changes everything. It changes everything. We got a couple minutes left. Can you talk about dating?

[Sean Killingsworth]

Oh, my gosh. Talk about dating. Okay, so me, me personally, I'm so. I'm 23 at this point. And so, I mean, so I can speak to what it was like dating in high school in a second. But speaking to, you know, what it's like to date as a young adult or maybe even adults as well that are older than I am, you know, I experienced a similar thing where it's now dating apps. So most people, and I don't, I live in Orlando. It's a pretty dispersed city. It's not like I'm in New York City or Chicago. There's like people hustling, bustling everywhere all the time, you know. And so most people find dates and connections through dating apps. So the thing is that I face in high school, that I'm facing now is I'm not going to force myself into a box where I'm going to have to play some game where I try to market myself with photos and witty remarks in a, in a description. I'm not doing that. I'm not, you know, that's. I'm gonna be betraying myself and someone.

[Jenny Urch]

Else is profiting off of it.

[Sean Killingsworth]

Exactly. And so, and so instead what I do is, you know, I'm, I'm just, you know, I walk around, I try to start conversations with people, but what Happens is in person especially I experience this with girls. Like pretty much no matter where I start a conversation with a girl out in public, that's not like a, like that's not a friend's friend or something like that. They're just immediately escaping as soon as possible. You know what I mean? And this is just, I'm like exposing myself. Like I just, I sound like I'm. I'm not smooth, I got no gay or whatever, you know, like I can't talk to girls or something. But you know, and think that if you want. But it's just a pervasive experience I have where people that are in public don't want to make a new friend, they don't want to start a new connection. They think that I'm going to get kidnapped, I'm going to be, blah, blah. And all I'm trying to do is have a conversation, hey, can I sit and have a coffee with you? And it's just like it does not. That environment doesn't. Isn't really able to penetrate those experiences because they're, you know, screen habitats. It's not normal. It's more normal to meet online, things like that. So it's very.

[Jenny Urch]

I have to tell you, this thing.

[Sean Killingsworth]

Can I tell you, please, Please.

[Jenny Urch]

Okay, so there's this man, I really like him. His name's Dr. Arthur Brooks and he's written all these books on happiness and he's a professor at Harvard. So I got a chance to talk with him and I read, I've read several of his books and in one of them he was talking about dating apps and he told this study. You're gonna think this is interesting. I think this is a study that people did where they had a bunch of guys and the guys wore a T shirt. Like the same T shirt. You wear a T shirt for like three or four days and put it in a box so it smells like you, right? So you put it in a shoe box and they cut a bunch of holes in the shoe boxes. And then they, they went into a room with a bunch of women and they handed out the shoe boxes and they said, smell it. You know, smell through the holes this T shirt that this, these guys wore for all these different days and rate the attractiveness of the guy based on the way the T shirt smells. So they did this whole thing. So, you know, Maybe they got 20 women in there, 20 shoe boxes, and they're going to rate all these guys based off of the. Of just smelling their T shirt in a shoebox. And what it Turned out was that the guys that they rated most attractive, it was all over the map. So it wasn't like, some consistent thing. The guys that they rated most attractive had the most different DNA from them, so that when they had children, like, if they ended up with that guy, their children would have the most opportunity of being healthy.

[Sean Killingsworth]

Interesting.

[Jenny Urch]

So he's talking to. Oh, dating apps do not capture smell. They don't capture any of the sort of, like, spark you get in between his eyes. His actual love story is that he was a French horn player and he traveled the world playing French horn. And he's in Spain or something playing French horn at some concert, and he meets this woman. He's in his early 20s, like you. And he's like, she's the one. And they don't even speak the same language. He cannot even talk to her. But he's like, so something physically in person happened. This spark happened, and he. And so he moved there. She was like, why are you here? You know, he's like, I'm. I think I'm supposed. I'm supposed to marry you, you know, so this. This connection happens. And he's like, that cannot happen on a dating app. So anyways, he gave some statistics about how. So we talked about this because he's a college professor and he works with PhD students. So they're like 28ish. And he's like, all of them want to find their person. All of them. He's like, they talk about it constantly just, like, how, you know, it's like, people really want real friendships. And. And he said that. I'm gonna read the statistic. One of the most robust trends in meeting potential mates over the past three decades so just 30 years has been the move away from dates set up by friends. More than half of people ages 54 to 64 went on a blind date, and now it's only 20%. You know, you went on a blind date that you got set up by a friend, not through a dating app. Someone who was like, oh, yeah, I think Sean and this girl would, you know, they'd probably be a good match.

[Sean Killingsworth]

That's never happened to me, by the way. Not once in my life. Never happened to me once in my life. I don't know any. Like, I mean, I don't know that happening to any of my friends. I've. I've never even heard of that. That would be amazing if that actually happened, but never happened.

[Jenny Urch]

That happened all the time when I was growing up. Oh, like, oh, I know this person. You might Be a good match for them.

[Sean Killingsworth]

Them.

[Jenny Urch]

So then you go on a blind date set up by friends and over half of people ages 54 to 64 had that happen to them. What a massive shift. There's so many implications here, but there are some solutions. And so start here. Start with committing. You know, we're committing to getting outside. It is a really stupid thing. Like you said. I. People are like, I can't believe it's come to this. People have been like, why the heck would you ever keep track of how much time you go outside? That's so dumb. You know? And I'm like, but it is something that actually does turn the ship and it makes a level of, it creates levels of change that you couldn't really anticipate. And this is the same thing. If you start to incorporate phone free everything, how many things can you make phone free?

[Sean Killingsworth]

Anything. Any. As long as you're the people and you got something going on or nothing going on and you make it phone free, it'll be a blast.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah. So there's a lot of business opportunities here. Like, the phone valet idea is an incredible one. You know, what is the, what is the thing? You know, they got those free libraries everywhere. Like, what is the thing? Like, can people have a device in, you know, some sort of a container in their home? That's like, we're a phone free home.

[Sean Killingsworth]

We do whatever, whatever it is, the innovation is inevitable.

[Jenny Urch]

Yeah, yeah. And it's starting.

[Sean Killingsworth]

Yeah, right, exactly. It totally is. Even though now it looks very difficult and hard, you know, and it may be like there's no light at the end of the tunnel. Just take my word for it. If at the very least this will over the next. At least five, I think more. Five years, but 10, 20 years, this problem will look entirely different. And we will look back now at kids with phones and schools with phones. Like we look at people smoking in hospitals, people driving beer in their hands and schools.

[Jenny Urch]

I think in the 70s you could get cigarettes in the vending machine machines at school.

[Sean Killingsworth]

At school.

[Jenny Urch]

At school there was totally smoking sections. But I'm pretty sure that if people could send me an email. But there, there were vending machines that sold cigarettes in height schools. Yeah. So yeah, we look back and we're like, that's ridiculous. So the change is starting now. People can connect with you. It's called the Reconnect movement. You can start your own chapter, whether that's in your community, your high school or your college. Check out the website. You can join in on the GoFundMe you the website has got the keynote that I was talking about. Be a great one to listen to with your children that are, you know, middle school, high school age. Also featured in New York Times, USA Today, and Time Magazine. Sean Killingsworth, what an honor. Thank you for your time.

[Sean Killingsworth]

Thank you for having me.

[Jenny Urch]

As we wrap up today, I want to say thanks for being here. If this episode helped you better understand the world our kids are growing up in, or gave you language for something you've been sensing but couldn't quite articulate, I'd be so thankful if you shared it with someone you cared about. That person to person, sharing really does matter. If you never left a review for the podcast, I'd be grateful if you did. I read everyone and they are super encouraging to me. They also help this work reach the families who are looking for it. And remember, if you're ready for a next practical step, you can Download the free 20261000 Hours Outside tracker sheet. Join us on the 1000 Hours Outside app available right now for just 25 for the year. And don't miss the 2026 kickoff pack that is inside the 1000 Hours Outside bundle available through January 12th. You'll find everything mentioned today at 1000hoursoutside.com with direct links waiting for you in the show Notes. I'm so glad you were here today. Until next time. May you find extraordinary moments on ordinary paths.

[Sean Killingsworth]

Get outside, open your eyes feel that sunshine kissing your skin Throw your worries out to the wind Climb some trees skin your knees Feel that grass on your feet again get out there and.

[Jenny Urch]

Take it in.

[Sean Killingsworth]

Oh, it's a beautiful.

[Jenny Urch]

World.

[Sean Killingsworth]

Ain't nothing on the screen that's ever gonna beat this.

[Jenny Urch]

Beautiful world.

[Sean Killingsworth]

And I just want to share with I just want to share with you this beautiful world Such a beautiful world.