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The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 675: The Outdoors Rebuilds a Person | Ginger Naylor, Outward Bound
00:56:44
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New year, same extra value meals at McDonald's.
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So now get two snack wraps plus.
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Fries and a medium soft drink for just $8 for a limited time only. Prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher in Hawaii, Alaska and California. And for delivery.
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Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Urich and I have a guest here today. I kind of would have never imagined this CEO for 15 years of outward Bound, Ginger Nailer. Welcome.
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A
Thank you, Jenny. It's so good to be here.
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The CEO of Outward Bound, Outward Bounds. Like, everybody knows about Outward Bound. Such an incredible program. Well, I, in my mind, had sort of equated it with teens, but when I went and looked further, I mean, you're offering things for corporations and for schools. Like, you know, it's like you had said, anyone use human, let's get them outside. Can you give us a little bit of your backstory of how you ended up at Outward Bound? And then I want to dive into all the different things you offer. We're going to really specifically be focusing on, though, this reset day, a nationwide reset day that's coming in January. But kick us off with, how did you get involved with Outward Bound?
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Well, so Outward Bound has a long storied history. And I swear, every time I'm in an airport, somebody sees the logo on my shirt and they're like, outward Bound.
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B
Yeah.
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I, however, grew up as a kid that didn't know anything about Outward Bound. So I grew up in a really rural community. Middle class kid camp was not a thing, but I was completely a feral outdoor child. That was the values of my family, my community, my place. And so as I became an adult and moved to an urban location and was looking for, how do I get my kids outside? How do I get involved? I was actually on a board that did an Outward Bound day. We did a team building day as adults. So that was my first experience with. It was part of a business and saying like, hey, we're going to show up for this day. I remember it was raining that day and they were like, nope, we're doing this anyway. But it was such a game changer for me. And that board that I sat on, that I kept my eye on them and I was like, these are my people. They're the people who are trying to get folks outside. They're trying to create adventure and the sense of freedom and ability to learn and experience the outdoors and learn about who you are through the outdoors. Um, and I just fell in love with it from that moment on. And that led me to applying for the first job that I saw that came up at Outward Bound and then led me to the being the executive director of the Chesapeake Bay region and then on to the CEO, the first female CEO of Outward Bound.
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B
Wow. And. And you said it's just got such a history. You say in 2024, just 2024 alone, Outward Bound generated nearly 1.5 million million hours of device free time through the experiential education programs. So one of the things that you talk about with our Bound, and we're going to make sure we get to this reset day that's coming so everyone can know about it, but it's very well researched. You talk about how this is helping kids with their and. And all people. But if you know we've got a lot of moms that listen in that there is an educational approach. You talk about how the outdoors is where learning comes alive. Outdoor Bound experiences spark real growth in students. And then you measure that change and you talk about how the those things that you measure help make your program stronger. This is helping kids with confidence. It's helping them with courage and belonging and physical engagement. Can you talk about. I love this phrasing. Four domains, eight skills, endless possibilities. Can you talk about some of the things that we maybe might know but forget because they're not front of mind or maybe we don't know at all about how getting outdoors and adventure and challenge and experiences with other people, they help us educationally and with our personal growth?
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Yes. So the thing that, the thing that I've said for years, it's interesting because I get to talk to other CEOs, and if you talk to somebody who's been very successful in life. Right. They have thrived. They're paying their bills, they're doing all the things that everybody would say. Yep. This is, this is the model. This is what we want to be. If you talk to those people nine times out of ten and ask them what made their success, they're not going to tell you. Reading, writing and arithmetic, even though those are very, very important educational foundations for all of our children. That's not what typically makes people thrive. What helps them thrive is how they show up in community, how they support each other, how they interact with other humans, how they handle their own stress, then they handle stress around them, how they handle problems. When we think about what Outward Bound does, we venture in the outdoors as a classroom to teach those skills. Right. So our whole curriculum is very intentionally built to develop the human character, who the person is, how they show up I was talking to the CEO of a big financial firm and I asked him, because I always do, I just love hearing it, what made you successful? And he said, my ability to lead is dependent on my ability to communicate, my ability to connect with other people, my ability to motivate them. Right. To be able to handle stress. Those are all the things that we're focused on. We can get very nerdy and researchy about it because that's what we do in Outward Bound. And I think about every day. Right. But those are the things that's what helps people thrive on a day to day basis. Yes. You need to know how to read. Literacy is important. I'm not saying that. But there's this other skill set that I think modern education has moved away from, from focusing on. There's less recess time, there's more standardized testing, there's more sit down and be quiet in your classrooms. Right. I'm going to sit up at the front of the room and I'm going to lecture to you and you're going to be still and you're going to be quiet. And humans are not designed that way. And a lot of our kids, you know, 80% of the people we serve are 77% are youth. And then the other that tops it off are usually their teachers and folks that are supporting you. So we're really focused on kids. We serve adults, we do a lot of great things. That's how I found Outward Bound. But our focus is youth. And kids need to get out. They need to adventure, they need to stretch their boundaries, they need to fuss in the yard, they need to be challenged and given a real opportunity to sort through it, figure it out. And even better, if there's an adult like an Outward Bound instructor there to help them make meaning of that experience and, and learn from it and understand how do I take this into my life and apply it in other places? Right. So that's exactly what these folks that, you know, I talk to about what makes you thrive, they've learned those lessons in different places. And the outdoors is just such an incredible teacher when it comes to pushing outside your comfort zone, getting you to challenge yourself and it's unstructured, which is, I'm sure, you know, a really important thing for kids.
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Yes. You know, it's interesting, Ginger, and I would imagine you've seen this over the last 15 years, that this has just become more and more important and more and more pertinent. I read a book, I'm talking to an author later. This is from 2008 it's called the Nation of Wimps, and it's like, one of the best books I've ever read. And I'm like, how have I missed this book for so long? But she talked about how American schools were designed essentially for the industrial age and have not been overhauled for the information age. 150 years ago, the goal was to subdue human nature so that people could mine the machines, not to turn creativity loose. And then she goes on, and I don't know if I find it because there's. I have so many notes on her, but. Oh, here it is. Here it is. Okay. Play is critical to healthy development. It sharpens and limbers intelligence. It is the only activity that directly prepares people for dealing with life's unpredictability.
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Amen. Oh, I just got goosebumps. That is so good. I could not agree more.
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So it just has gotten more and more important because when you go on an outdoor adventure, you don't know what to expect. When you sit in a classroom, you mostly know what to expect. And so this is helping to. Helping children to expand themselves, especially for today's day and age. In this book, in 2000, prepare for.
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The things you can't expect.
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Right? Yeah. In 2008, she was saying, well, everyone's concerned about globalization. And so there's this fear. And so people are kind of doubling, doubling down. They don't know what to do. The rules haven't changed. The rules have changed. So people are like, over parenting, basically. There's this intensity that's been brought to parenting. And she's like, well, no, for, you know, for the world that's to come. These kids have to be flexible and they have to be creative, and they have to be able to deal with the unknown solvers.
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Right?
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Yeah.
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They have to be these quick thinkers, ability to solve a problem as they see it coming at them.
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That's right.
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And you have to. That's a skill.
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That's right.
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That is a skill. And that's what I think. You know, the focus that you're talking about parents. And I've been caught up in it. Right. I have four boys. I read you have five children. Like, you get it. I've seen a lot. I've seen a lot of humans grow up over the last few years. And those kids really need to be good problem solvers. So they need to be presented with problems that they can solve that will challenge them, that will push them outside their comfort zone, and then will be. There should be an adult around that helps them make meaning out of it. And I keep using that sentence, but it's an important part of what Outward Bound does, is we won't just take you and trog you up a hill for the fun of it. Right? Yes, you're going to get to see a beautiful vista. But there is a lesson in the resilience that it takes to do something hard.
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Right.
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And then facilitating, taking that conversation with young people to say, what made that hard? What could you do differently? How did you think about it? What are, what are the mental, you know, tools that you use to help you get through it now? How do you use that in the rest of your life? Where does that come into play at school or with your parents or with your friendships?
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Right.
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And man, you can see the light bulbs go off. And of course, we're not their parents, so we can have these conversations and they're willing to have them with us in a different way than they do with their parents. Yeah, you see the light bulbs go off. And then I hear stories over and over from now adults that say, that was a defining moment in my life, where it changed what I thought I was capable of, how I interacted with other folks, how I inter, how I experienced challenge. And that's really. That's exactly what we want.
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Yes. A defining moment in my life. And you had it, too. You had it as an adult working with Outward Bound. I want to read a couple more.
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When I got hired at Outward Bound, I was sent on a dog sledding expedition to earn my street cred. At the Voyager Outward Bound school in Minnesota, they also do canoe. Canoeing. They do a lot of cool things. But in the winter, they run dog sledding expeditions. And I'm a Florida girl. I grew up in Florida. I like to be warm. I want to have flip flops and tank tops on, you know, all the time. So I will tell you that the, the adult team building experience that I had was incredible. At the Chesapeake Bay school and then going to the Voyager school and having that dog sledding, true long expedition experience, challenged me in ways that I've never been challenged. It was hard. It was maybe one of the hardest things I've done emotionally and physically, you know, and it just pushed me outside my comfort zone. And I will tell you that I came off the ice and I still remember high fiving the program director and just feeling like I am woman. Hear me roar. Because if I can do that, I can do anything. And that's part of what it does for you.
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It's incredible, isn't that the truth.
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Wow.
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We were. It reminds me, we were just for Thanksgiving. We've never done this before, Ginger, but we traveled for Thanksgiving and we did with some friends. We met up with some friends in Tennessee. People came in from different areas. So like one family came in from Kentucky. One family was from Tennessee, and another family came in from Texas. We're from Michigan. So, you know, it's Tennessee. It's November. It was in the 40s, which to me is balmy. I was like, oh, it's so nice out.
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Oh, my God. I'm like, this is terrible.
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Yes. Anyways, the Texans were not having it. They were like, this is so cold. So, yeah, that is. That is such an experience to have that. To dog sled as a Floridian and to go in and have that experience. One of the other things that it said in this book, A Nation of Wimps, which is quite a title, but it says, there's no question that today's parents want the best for their kids. They especially want them to be prepared to thrive in a fast changing world, world for which they themselves did not feel at all prepared. But in removing play from childhood, they have it precisely backwards. They ignore the evidence. Play is the true preparation for adulthood. And then she says, play makes us nimble, neurobiologically, mentally, behaviorally capable of adapting to a rapidly evolving world. Play cajoles us toward our human potential. It preserves our alternatives. So then it's like how our nervous system, you know, how we prune, like we prune different parts and then they're just gone. Like that's like what the brain does. But, you know, when you have these different varied experiences, it preserves the alternatives of, like, what you're capable. I don't know, it's just so powerful. So I would love for you to talk about, because you went and did the dogslighting expedition, you talked about this certain location. Can you give people a broad picture of what Outward Bound offers? Because you got schools, you've got things for businesses, but you also have these different locations.
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A
So we have nine locations across the country, all the way from California to the east coast, schools in between. And that means we offer things that are unique to those locales, Right. And to the place that they are in. So each of our schools have a very unique local identity. If you're at Hurricane Island, Outward Bound School in Maine, you're going to go sailing, you may go canoeing. There are some backpacking, right? But they are, they are our sea school. They're the sailing school. As you Move down the coast, you're going to have more sea kayaking in the Chesapeake Bay. There's some amazing canoeing and hiking in North Carolina, all the way down to Florida, where again, you get to sea kayaking. And that's what I really wanted to do on my expedition, but they told me I wasn't allowed to. And then as you go across, you've got the Rocky Mountains, the Colorado school, and in Utah, where they're doing whitewater rafting, hiking, climbing, mountaineering, up to Minnesota, dog sledding, canoeing. And then like I said, out west, you get into Joshua Tree, you get into Yosemite, where there's lots of hiking and climbing. It's just an incredible breadth of programs that we offer. And those programs can be laid across multiple different audiences. So it may be that we're working with the school group. We have loads of schools that bring their entire ninth grade to our bound because they feel it is such an important part of their value system that kids get these experiences. Yeah, but schools bring their kids. So we're not a field trip. We are an educational partner to schools. That's how we think of ourselves. We are, we are providing a portion of the education that they're not equipped to do. Well, right? Yes.
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This is the part that makes them nimble. They're. They're neurologically, neurobiologically, mentally and behavioral. Behaviorally nimble. You're not going to learn that in a classroom.
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Nope. And so we partner with schools to do that. We partner with parents so during the summertime, parents can sign their kids up one off. If school is not one of those schools that we work with on a broad scale like that, you can sign your kid up for a summer course. And then we work with corporations and with adults, because adults still need this stuff too.
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The new year always feels like a reset for me. Not just for schedules and routines, but for our home too. I want our space to feel calm, functional and ready for the season ahead. Essentially the opposite of what it feels like over the holidays. With a stream of parties and gatherings, family visits that are fun and meaningful, but also add to the craziness. And honestly, Wayfair makes that so easy. If you're refreshing bedding, upgrading towels, organizing kids rooms, or finally tackling storage, Wayfair really does have everything in one place. I love being able to shop for practical things like mattresses, bathroom storage and kitchen essentials, and add in those finishing touches that make a home feel cared for. This season I'm focusing on simple, cozy updates. We are refreshing bedding and adding a few accent pillows and mirrors to our living space. Nothing over the top, just pieces that feel warm, lived in and inviting. I was honestly surprised by how many styles and price points there were. It made it easy to stay on budget without sacrificing quality or style. And I love how convenient it is to find everything from kids room updates to work from home setup to storage solutions for all the outdoor gear that somehow always piles up. Get organized, refreshed and back on track this new year. For way less, head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com Wayfair Every style, every Home January always feels like a fresh start in our homeschool. It's that reset moment after the holidays where you're refining what worked, letting go of what didn't, and finding your rhythm again. Oh, and also you actually know what day it is again, as opposed to being in that holiday induced fog where time and space seem to just meld into nothing and everything all at once. One thing we've learned over the years is how important it is to meet each child exactly where they are. That's why IXL fits so naturally into our homeschool life. It adapts to each learner so one child can review last year's skills while another jumps ahead without pressure, comparison or busy work. I love how effortless it is as a parent. Everything is organized by grade and by topic, so I'm not digging through resources or reinventing the wheel. And the real time feedback is huge. Kids learn from mistakes immediately and the progress reports give clarity and confidence as a guide. IXL covers math, language arts, science and social studies from Pre K all the way through 12th grade and it grows right along with your child. It is flexible, proven and trusted by millions of families. Make an impact in your child's learning. Get IXL now and 1000 Hours Outside listeners can get an exclusive 20 off their IXL membership when they sign up today at www.ixl.com 1000hours. Visit ixl.com 1000hours to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. Some weeks I just don't have the time or the brain space for real meal planning. I want to eat healthier. I care about what we're putting in our bodies. But by dinner time I am tired and overwhelmed. And that's where Hungry Root has been such a gift. Hungry Root is basically like having a personal nutrition coach and grocery shopper rolled into one. I told them what we like, what we don't like, and what my health goals are. And they planned everything for me. The recipes of which there are over 50,000, the groceries, all of it. And the more we use it, the smarter it gets, tailoring things even better to our tastes. I love that it makes healthy eating simple without overthinking it. Whether you're trying to eat cleaner, get more protein or reduce inflammation, Hungry root does the work for you without junk ingredients and with high quality meats and seafood. And if you're trying to stick with healthier habits past January, which aren't we all, this really helps make it doable right now. Take advantage of this exclusive offer for a limited time. Get 40% off your first box and plus get a free item in every box for life. Go to hungryroot.com 1000hours and use code 1000hours. That's hungryroot.com 1000hours. Code 1000hours to get 40 off your first box and a free item of your choice for life.
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A
I think it's important. One of the things that you said about the pruning, right. The way I talk about this with folks is as kids are developing, if you think about their brain development as a child, there are certain skills that have windows of time where they're really ripe for learning it. And language is an easy one. Right. So, you know, if a child doesn't get spoken to, if they don't get to learn to speak by the time they're age 4, they're really going to struggle with that for the rest of their life, no matter how many resources you pour into them. I believe, and a lot of researchers believe, that it is the same when it comes to play, when it's the same when it comes to comes to developing these interpersonal skills. If kids don't get enough time to practice them, to fail at them, to get better, to try again, to learn, if they don't develop those skills while they're in childhood, they will struggle for the rest of their life. To me, that's why it feels so critical like, we have to get this. We have to get kids outside. We have to get them and give them more freedom, give them some space to fail and recover and learn and grow and challenge themselves. And we are over engineering childhood so much that we're taking that away from them.
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That's right, yes. Over engineering. There's a woman named Nicole Runyon who wrote a book called Fly, Something about Fly. Oh, goodness.
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I need your book list. Do you have a Published book list.
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I know I should. I'm like every single week it's like six more. So this one's called Free to Fly. And she was talking about how there's stages of independence. Like you're talking about stages where they learn language. So she said nine is a big age. And then 16.
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Yeah.
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And so that's why, you know, the kids should out driving and they start to sort of separate. And to your point, if they miss can have lifelong ramifications.
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Yep. At Outward Bound we often talk about that 13 to 16, year age.
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Yeah.
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Or year old age range. That's where they're forming their identity. That's where they're figuring out who am I going to be in the world. And they're trying on different identities. Right. They're try something on like, oh, this isn't me. I don't like the way I look. I don't like the way I'm presenting myself. I don't like the experience I'm having. Let me try. I'm now going to be this person. So it's really important to make sure that we're focused on shaping their character during that portion of time.
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B
Yeah. Yes. It's really big. A really big deal. And what a cool thing that there's so many different types of opportunities that someone could try. Okay, so let's talk then. Let's shift gears. You have this reset day nationwide reset day on Saturday, January 24th of 2026. All across the country, communities are joining the movement. Talk about what it is and where was, where were the seeds planted? Where did it start?
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A
So it started with conversations just like this, truly. I mean, a lot of us in Outward Bound, I have four boys, a lot of us have kids. We work with kids every day. We are stepping in right now to support young people as anxiety is rising, as attention spans are shrinking. And the reset is meant to be a proactive solution grounded in a proven approach to grow resilience of young people and to help them find balance with technology. Right. So I've watched my own boys, I can't tell you how many times where I'm like, get off the couch, put that phone down and go outside. You know, what are you doing, man? And they're in their early 20s now and they have negotiated their own relationships with technology. And I think it's important to say that technology here is not a bad thing at all. Right. We're on technology right now. We wouldn't be talking without it. So it is super important to our modern lives. And I think Our, our kids and adults, we may not be balancing it well all the time. So the reset is a moment where we're trying to start a national movement. We want people talking about this. We want this conversation happening about how do we take some control back, how do we find balance and can we all for one day match what Outward Bound does in a year with students or more and put our phones down. Right. Let's add to that one and a half million hours. Let's all of us take some time, make a commitment and say, I'm going to step away for an hour and I'm going to go for a walk. I'm going to reclaim this time in a new way and do something that's going to help me grow or help my kids grow.
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B
Yeah, I read this thing. I think you'll think this is fascinating, but maybe you've already read it. I haven't gotten to talk to this author, but I'm hoping I get to. Her name's Tiffany. Tiffany Schlane.
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I'm not, I'm talking to her.
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B
So she, she's part of the reset?
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She's part of the reset, yep. So she just signed on. She loves us. Are you the Shabbat? Yeah.
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B
So the book is called 24Six. And one of the things that she said that completely blew my mind. I mean it really changed my outlook on a lot of things. She said that rest is a form of technology. And the way that she explained it is that I techno that technology, you know, that we talk about technology, we're talking about, you know, we think, we're talking about our phones and we're talking about, you know, our computers, but, but really like a washing machine is technology, a dog sled is technology. These are all new technologies. And she said that's a good way.
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A
To think about it.
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B
It is. She said the promise of technology is that it makes things efficient, it saves time and it allows us to get things done. Therefore, rest is being out in nature like the. Those are things that make us more efficient. They allow us to get more done. She says rest is a form of technology. It's one of the most effective technologies there is. And so a day like this, a reset day is an alternative form of technology that counterintuitively allows us to just be more productive and more human in the world. Okay, so I love that you talked about this. One of the things you talk about is a choice based approach. You're talking about your kids that are older and there are people that are talking about how, you know, I Just talked to someone who said it's not that kids don't like to read. His name is Dr. Daniel Willingham. He's like, they do like to read. The problem is that there's 10 other shinier objects that are there. Right. And then there's a man he talks about, it's called Playborhood. His name is Mike Lanza. And he said, you know, in, in generations past, when a kid would look out the window, they would see the first 14 other kids out there. And so they were drawn out. That doesn't exist anymore. So it's not that they don't want to play outside, just that the constructs have changed. So you talk about this choice based approach and, and I believe that if you experience something like Outward Bound or you have a day of reset, it reminds you, it reinforces. Maybe you learn for the first time that these other choices are glitzy enough and they are going to provide for you on a really deep soul level. And I think that then, as the goal is, you know, you talk about this helps a young person, as they're moving into adulthood, learn how to take ownership of their time and attention. So can you talk about some of the things that you are talking about for this day of reset? Like maybe you go on a hike, maybe you do an art project. You know, there's a lot of ideas here.
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A
Yep. We are very intentionally not prescribing what we should do, what you should do. And I will tell you, I think it's my preference. And if you talk to anybody in Outward Bound, because we're a bunch of hippies that love the outdoors. Right. We would say go outdoors, take a hike, go reconnect, go stand in a river. If it's warm enough, it's always warm enough.
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B
If you're from Michigan.
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A
That's one of my favorite things to do personally. If I am stressed, if I'm worried, if I have a problem to solve, what I don't need to do is sit in front of my computer anymore. I need to get out, I need to move my body. That usually gets the energy flowing in a different way. Right. And if I stand in a river, I'm just a total river rat. If I stand in a river, it's like clarity comes and all of a sudden the solutions are there. So we're just encouraging folks to make your choices, make the choice that's right for you. It could be sitting out on your front stoop and having your lunch. Right. Without a phone and just watching what's happening and getting Some sauna on your face. It could be a big walk. It could be participating in Outward Bound. It could be whatever is meaningful for you. The point is, it's not about giving up something. It's not about what you're giving up. It's about what you're getting back. So the focus here is that when you put those things screen down, when the screen goes dark, amazing things can happen. And you can make the choice to facilitate that, right? To create the space for that to happen. And that happens when you say, okay, I'm stepping away for a minute.
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B
So some of the wording which I just think is so important, you say, as national concerns about youth, mental health, digital risks and attention fatigue continue to rise, which is so true. The Reset offers a clear and hopeful response. One day to log off, to get outside, or you talk about doing art projects, whatever you want that to be for you. And we're doing it as a nation. So if someone was interested, is there, do you sign up? Do you let your friends know?
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A
So like I said, we're trying to get rack up some hours. What we want to do is say to the world like, there is a group of us that truly believe in this and this is important. So on our website, we have an amazing webpage that the team put together. It's called the Reset. Right? Go to outwardbound.org backslash the reset. You will get there. There's a place you can take a pledge. We have organizations that are taking the pledge that are joining us and all of their employees are saying, yep, we're going to take some time off and step away. And so that's the place we do it. We're tracking the hours and plan to share it out with the entire universe. But that's, that's where the nexus of the movement is happening. And yeah, we'd love as many people to join us as possible.
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B
And there's going to be so many cool stories about what people did that day. I would say I'm a river rat too. My favorite thing is to be on a river in a Uber. Yes, the best. Yes. It's so great. Do you know, and I talked to this man recently. You would like his book. Maybe you've already read it. It came out this year. It's called the. It's called the Mind of Nature. And the author is Dr. Mark Berman. And he was talking about how the design of nature is so compelling to us. And one of the things he said specifically was that in nature, this made me think about it with the river, because I was picturing myself, like, as you brought it up, I was picturing myself.
- [29:42]
A
Right. And you can probably feel your nervous system even thinking about it. Your nervous system just like, relax. Yes.
- [29:49]
B
We went kayaking with some friends this summer in Michigan's Upper Peninsula on the. It's called the AU Train River. And we'd never gone before, but we went kayaking on this river. And there was this one spot where we pulled off to the side, and it was like sandy bottom. And there just was a dip in the river there, like a really deep part, so you could jump. You could, like, jump in, you know, it was, like, so fun. The kids had so much fun. And so that's what I was picturing when you talked about just standing there. Like, we're kind of standing in the shallow side and the kids are jumping in. And what Dr. Mark Berman said is that so much of the indoor design is linear. Straight lines. He's like, but straight lines don't exist in nature. And so I was envisioning this, like, the meandering river.
- [30:32]
A
Dreamy. It is.
- [30:34]
B
And it's like, it's just so good for you to be out. And I guess that's like, the simplicity of it, where it doesn't have to be something that's so extravagant.
- [30:42]
A
No, it doesn't have to be extreme sports. Right. It doesn't have to be. You don't have to climb a mountain. Yeah. That.
- [30:48]
B
It's getting out of the. You know, the crown molding in my home, that's straight and the molding around the door, and everything is plumbed. Is that. I don't even know if that's the right word. Like, it's like everything. Right. The plumb line and, you know, everything's 90 degree angles, and you just step outside and obviously there's just change. Even if you live in a place that's kind of flat, there's going to be all sorts of things that are not these linear lines, and they help you to feel better. So I'm excited to hear, after it happens, what people do.
- [31:17]
A
If you think about. We do have. I mean, there. There is research out there that talks about the color green and the different shades of leaves in the same way that straight lines matter. Right. Like the color. Humans have a neurological response to that color. So we have evolved alongside of the outdoors, and I just think there's a. A world where we all get back out there, we all spend more time in the outdoors, and hopefully the reset is a spark to help make that happen. But collectively, as a country As a world, we get back control of our time, we are able to make choices. Our youth have a lot of agency in how they're spending their time. And our collective nervous systems get that sigh of relief every once in a while that we both feel when we think about a river.
- [32:08]
B
That's right. I love that you said the neurological response to color, because right now, we're buried in snow. But a couple years ago, I had seen, and probably was more than a couple years ago at this point, but someone had posted a video of them out in the snow. Like, I think they lived in Canada, and their kids had these red coats. I was like, gosh, there's something striking about that. And I was thinking more about the winter color, and the only winter color is red. There's, like, sometimes you see the cardinal.
- [32:35]
A
The berries.
- [32:35]
B
And the berries. And the berries. Yeah, that's right. Ginger. So it's like those are the things that. That you.
- [32:40]
A
They.
- [32:41]
B
And they pop. Like, it's just so entrancing because that's, like, the only color you see for a couple months. But it's just such a. A beautiful color, and you do have a neurobiological response to it.
- [32:52]
A
Well, for me, even the office I'm sitting in right now, my desk used to be. I have a, you know, a screen thing here on the background, but it was turned the other way where I couldn't see out the window. And I said to my husband, like, two years ago, we have to turn my whole desk around. I need to see out the window. I cannot do. Just stare into gray and white all the time. Like, I have to be able to see outside. So right now I have a window out here. I've got a bird feeder mounted at the window, so the birds come to the window and I can see them. And it just. It's a great way to spend a meeting. Right? To gaze out the window. It's helpful.
- [33:23]
B
That's right. And it's those little things, because you're seeing the. The design of nature and how it affects you in. In the way that you feel as we step into a new year. And, yes, take those first steps outside to kick it off. I always feel this pull to simplify, to reach for pieces that feel good, layer well and actually last. And that's why I've been loving quince. Quince makes those wardrobe staples you reach for again and again. I'm talking about their Mongolian cashmere sweaters that feel like designer pieces without the designer price. 100% silk tops and skirts that instantly dress things up and denim that's cut just right for everyday life. Their Italian wool coats are a standout too. Beautifully tailored, soft and made to last for years, not just one season. You can feel the quality in the details, the stitching, the fit, the fabric. Everything is thoughtfully designed to become a true wardrobe essential. I can't tell you how much I'm loving my new cashmere sweater. It's getting so much wear already and it's holding up beautifully. I've even picked up a few Quince pieces for home and travel and the quality has been just as impressive. And the best part, Quince uses premium materials from ethical trusted factories and prices everything far below traditional luxury brands. Quince is a big hit around here and I know you'll love what they have to offer as well. So refresh your wardrobe with Quince. Don't wait. Go to quince.com outside for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C e.com outside to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com outside so you have this statement. This is a really interesting statement. Outward bound creates $9 of social value for every dollar invested. Can you talk about that?
- [35:00]
A
Yeah. So our Outward Bound is in the US is part of a global network. So that's an important thing to know. So we're in 36 countries around the world. This is not just a USA. I'm, I happen to get the privilege of leading the USA movement. But this is happening in countries all over the world and we all have.
- [35:19]
B
How many countries?
- [35:20]
A
36 different countries. Yeah. So I was just at our bound South Africa earlier this year and outwardbound Hong Kong. And you know, this is a movement. There is, if you think many of your listeners think there is not a community out there that is completely committed to this, come join the Outward Bound community. Because I'll tell you what, we are a lot of people that are pushing hard all over the world and it's pretty exciting. So Outward Bound International did this research and so it looked at what's happening in the US but looked at what's happening all over the world. And basically the metric tells you what a society would have to spend to get the same amount of benefit that Outward Bound is able to deliver. Right. And so you would have to spend government, educational institutions, whatever it is, would have to spend nine times as much as Outward Bound spends in order to get the same results. And that's more. It's about what a student is getting back, specifically how they walk away with resilience, a sense of community, the ability to connect with each other, communication, all the things that we are able to grow pretty quickly with the right experiences. Right. Which are outdoors challenge, all the things we're talking about. We have a six year old proven way of doing that pretty quickly and it provides real results. And so this was the first big study globally that says, yep, this is what Outward Bound gives back to the community. $9 in value for every $1 spent.
- [36:54]
B
Yeah, it's remarkable. Have you seen those studies where they talk about like if you have four trees on your street, it's like you're ten years younger and they've gotten a ten thousand dollar raise and we just underestimate. We underestimate.
- [37:05]
A
Interesting. No, that's cool.
- [37:06]
B
Yes, it's in the Mark Berman book.
- [37:08]
A
Okay.
- [37:09]
B
Kind of nature. Yeah. So you know, it's like there are measurable impacts to interacting with nature. Even if it's small things, even if it's just you turn your desk so that you can see out the window.
- [37:23]
A
Yep.
- [37:24]
B
One of the things that you talk about is social emotional development, which has really become a big deal. You see it in the classrooms because they have social emotional learning, S E L and that acronym. I taught high school, so I don't, I guess I don't know if they would have done it in high school, but I taught in the earlier 2000s, like 2008, 2006, around there. Anyway, I'd never heard that acronym S E L and I taught high school so that might be why. But even in my training I don't feel like that was a thing. Social emotional learning and I could be wrong, but this is one of the benefits of these programs, the social emotional development. And I think that's incredibly important in this day and age because of the rapid change. So a lot of rapid job changes. Someone I talked to recently said 11 job changes in the 20 in their 20s, 11 job changes. That's a lot of job changes.
- [38:16]
A
A lot of transition, a lot of change.
- [38:19]
B
It is, it's a lot of change. So if kids are able to communicate and collaborate and be persistent and have self awareness, which these are the things you talk about that Outward Bound helps. It's going to really help them in their adult life. So can you give an example of, you know, what might happen on a trip or in experience that is helping kids in a real environment, not in some sort of prescribed. It's our social emotional learning time for 12 minutes. But in a real environment, how that's going to help them really today and tomorrow. Right. It's like for now and for the future.
- [38:55]
A
So yes, let me give you a bit of context and framing. So when you go on an Outward Bound expedition, could be anywhere from five days to a semester long course. The people that are with you. Yeah. So it could be a 90 day where you're going from North Carolina's mountains to Patagonia and hiking in Patagonia and Argentina.
- [39:19]
B
Can you dive deeper? So what I would, I would love to know because you know, you go on your website and you're like, you can bring Outward Bound to your school. There's individual courses, there's one day, there's week long, there's a semester long. What does a semester long is that for someone that's maybe gap yearing or.
- [39:34]
A
A lot of college students love those long courses. Right. So they're taking a break. They are. You know, sometimes it's somebody that's between high school and college and they've got that year off and they're, you know, finding themselves, they're figuring out who they are, they're having some life experience before they died in college. Which is an excellent idea by the way. Parents, don't push your kids right into college. They're not always ready for it.
- [39:57]
B
Right.
- [39:59]
A
So yeah, it's typically college age students, you know, young adults who are doing long semester courses and they are life changing. The more time you can spend in these environments, the better off, the better the results are going to be. So hands down, a long experience is great. And they're usually multi, multi dimensional in that there'll be multiple locations, multiple activities. So you might be canoeing and hiking like I said in North Carolina, and then you are traveling to Patagonia and doing the same thing, but you're doing it in this other amazing landscape, you know? Yeah. So you asked about social emotional learning. Social emotional learning is core to what we do. And I think it's a term, it feels squishy. Right. You even said like it's not a thing that I had heard. Right.
- [40:50]
B
Yeah.
- [40:50]
A
But if you think about it, it's what we've been doing for a really long time. I mean, we have been engaged as humans in sel from the beginning of time. We've done it in different ways. And some in years past, the church might have been the one that does that, that instills values, that talks about who you are as a human, who are you becoming, how do you show up in the world, how do you Interact with the world, right? It's all that educational stuff with the character of who a human is. So typically in Outward Bound, while SEL is sort of the academic term that gets used to used, we're thinking about character education, right. Who is it this person is going to become and what are all the things that all the educational experiences they need outside of the classroom that shape who they are and how they interact with the world? So if you think about our instructors on any of those courses, there's always two instructors with the students and they get a lot of deep training in facilitating those experiences. They are not camp counselors, they are professionals. And so it's interesting when everybody says, well, who's your counselors? I'm like, oh, don't call them counselors. They freak out. Because what they have had is a very deep, long, extensive training in child development and human development and leadership development. There's a lot that we work on and like, how do you develop yourself as a leader if you're a young person and in facilitation skills? So again, the idea of, you know, the Socratic method and that sort of thing, there is no one person standing up and saying, here's what you're going to learn today and here's how you're going to learn it. It is an experience that we facilitate to help them find their own learnings in it. And that's often, like I said, about their resilience, their confidence, the way they navigate conflict. Those are the things we're trying to help them discover who they are and how they want to be.
- [42:49]
B
In a, in a real time environment. I mean, I just think that's so valuable. So people are listening in, they're involved in schools. You know, if they're in leadership positions. This would be such a great thing to bring to your school.
- [43:01]
A
It would be. And you know, so this, the Outward Bound school that I ran for a long time, we work with a lot of schools and I'm not a teacher by trade. My sister's a teacher. And God bless every teacher out there. Like they're doing God's work and they are overworked, they're overstretched.
- [43:20]
B
That's right.
- [43:21]
A
To expect that that classroom can also deliver character development. They try and they. I, I have talked to teachers who are up at night Googling, like, I know I need to do this. How do I do this? How do I weave this into my classroom? It's hard. They've got a lot on their plate. And so that's where Outward Bound can Be a real partner to educational institutions. And we've been doing this for 64 years. We're great at it. You know, we know what we're doing. We can be a partner to a school and help them with that portion of it.
- [43:51]
B
Yes, I think that's such a good point. Like, we can't be everything to everyone, especially within the. The four walls of a classroom.
- [43:58]
A
No.
- [43:59]
B
Even if you throw recess in there. But this book Nation of WIMPS said 40,000 schools have no recess anymore. Something like that.
- [44:05]
A
Yeah.
- [44:06]
B
Like, none. Like, they got rid of it completely.
- [44:08]
A
Or penny or music programs or all of those things. Right.
- [44:12]
B
Yes, it's all cut too, but. And then it even said PE is no substitute for play. You know, when you're being told what to do and you gotta. I don't even think they have those ropes anymore. Like, I grew up where they had like a rope that hung from the ceiling. You had to like, try and climb that. And I was like, I don't. I don't really want to do that.
- [44:27]
A
I was never one of the kids that could get up there.
- [44:32]
B
One knot, you know, it was always knots or whatever. But it's not the same thing. So. Yeah. What?
- [44:38]
A
No, it's the unstructured portion of it. Right. It's the. Allowing them to choose their own adventure and their path of how they're going to discover the lessons that are important to them. If you prescribe everything, they may get what you prescribe, but there's a lot of other things that get developed along the way too, when you allow them to just explore and stretch the boundaries.
- [44:57]
B
Yeah, yeah. That's why you use the phrase educational partner, because it absolutely is. Oh, God. I'm super curious because. So in my life, I was a teacher. I just mostly was a teacher. And then I taught, like, I taught.
- [45:09]
A
Guitar for a little bit.
- [45:10]
B
I taught piano. I taught high school math. It's like, you know, the thing that I did. And now, then I was a mom, and now I'm a podcaster and an author, which is just kind of a wild shift. But I have no idea what it's like to be a CEO. And I'm super curious. So I. I would love to know just from the perspective of someone who has no clue. Like, I'm at home wearing sweatpants and a little bit of a nicer shirt. You know, like, not in these high pressure situations and making decisions. I'd love to know a couple things you love and a couple things that are hard.
- [45:41]
A
Oh, gosh, that's a good question. What do I love? I love seeing the impact when I get to go to our Outward Bound schools, and particularly in kids. I have a soft spot because I was a rural kid. I grew up middle class. We didn't have a ton of resources. I wasn't going to camps all over the country, right. So when I see kids that were like me that they had the opportunity to go to Outward Bound, their parents have paid for, their schools have paid for it. However it's happened, right? We fundraised for them to be able to be there and they come back from their expedition and it is the kid that is the most unlikely one to have enjoyed it. Say, this was the most amazing thing I've ever done. I want more of this. I hear that all the time. I want more of this. Can I bring my family here? Is there a way? The school I used to work for, we had a huge park. We were in the middle of a city park as big as Central Park. And the kids would say, can I bring my family back here? And we would get to say, yes, this park is yours. It belongs to you. Bring a frisbee, bring a picnic, get your parents here, get anybody you want here. I think seeing those changes, that just feeds my soul.
- [46:56]
B
Yeah.
- [46:57]
A
What I hate. Hate's a strong word. I try not to.
- [47:01]
B
Well, I, I did say what's challenging?
- [47:03]
A
The. Oh, challenging.
- [47:05]
B
There's something, you know, I don't think I said hate. I might have, I don't know.
- [47:09]
A
No, you're right. Challenge is a better word because every.
- [47:13]
B
Every job has challenging parts, right? Like whether you're a parent or a teacher or, you know, whatever you do, they're challenging parts. So I'm just like, is a fly on the wall. What is challenging about being a CEO? Like I, I would have my guesses. Like my guess, my guess, my top guess would be managing people.
- [47:31]
A
Yeah, managing people can be challenging. I think we happen to attract some really incredible people. The outdoors, just like they're the best people in the world. They're the people you want to sit and have a beer with and just tell stories. And like we happen to get really good people. Managing people is really hard. I think managing a non profit generally, and that's what Outward Bound is, big national nonprofit. Running a non profit in a political landscape that is constantly shifting is really challenging, right? So things are moving all the time and it doesn't matter which party it is, whoever isn't, things are just constantly changing. And so there is a lot of resilience that is required for me to be like, oh, now we're going this direction. Okay, now we've got this crisis out on the landscape. Okay. Now different policies changed all of that. So it's just a constant. You're on shifting sand all the time and then you've got, you know, I think collectively all the schools in outward and USA have about a thousand employees. We serve this year, I think we'll serve about 35,000 students. And so, you know, that's a lot of people to move and respond to what's happening in external forces. And then you have sort of the landscape of America and where we are right now, the technology and the challenges around that and trying to push a movement forward that's about get unplugged and get outside for a little while. Do yourself some good.
- [48:55]
B
Yeah, I like that. This sort of came full circle. You said all the shifting sand all the time. And that's how it is for your non profit. I just think in general that's kind of how life is. You know, if someone enters their 20s and has 11 jobs, that's a lot of shifting sand. And I think as parents. I just had a friend that came over the other day and she was, I mean, like, kind of in crisis mode. Like, how do I navigate my, my college age boys through these changing times? And like, you know, four years ago it might have been like, yeah, you get a computer science degree. And now it's like, no, you don't get a computer science degree. Like, what if you're in the middle?
- [49:31]
A
What is it? What is it this year? What is it next year?
- [49:33]
B
Yeah, for sure. It's just a shifting sand. And this. I'm going back to this book because I liked it so much. This nation of wimps, she writes, by its very ambiguous nature. Nature gives brains a workout because it's ambiguous. She says ambiguity is vastly underrated. Ambiguity is con. Cognitively challenging. It requires attention, so it sharpens our senses. It both demands and inspires mental dexterity and flexibility. It thrives on complexity, uncertainty and possibility. That makes sense. Play, and especially play in nature. Just about the perfect preparation for life today. Life in the 21st century.
- [50:09]
A
Love that.
- [50:10]
B
Yeah. And then she, she also talked about how a lot of parents are gonna say, yeah, I get it, like it's important. Like she wrote, 30 years of psychological research indicates that play is the crucible for learning and critical for social skills, which are critical for success in school. Playful learning increases attention and motivation and academic skills and social development and health. Yet we are at an impasse where tutoring for two year olds is the reality and play is down. We can either turn out robots or creative problem solvers. Play is the engine of human development. This is a really good book.
- [50:46]
A
I can't wait to read it.
- [50:48]
B
I'll send you my booklets from this podcast episode.
- [50:51]
A
I love that. Perfect.
- [50:52]
B
It says play is fighting. It's a fight against the encroachment of workbooks and other forms of academic, of achievement pressure. And so what you're doing is. It's more than meets the eye, I guess, is what I would say. Right.
- [51:06]
A
It's more than engages the brain, right?
- [51:08]
B
Yeah.
- [51:10]
A
And, and that's true of any age human. It doesn't just have to be a young person. If I have to get together a bunch of executives in a room and get them to engage in a really great conversation, an immediate hard conversation, what I need to do first is engage their brain. I need to get them like fully bought in. And the way you can do that instantaneous, instantaneously is make a game out of it somehow or another, make it playful. Right. Because the humans will respond to that immediately.
- [51:36]
B
Right.
- [51:37]
A
When the pandemic happened and students all over the world went home for basically two years, right. Outward Bound pivoted and started to facilitate some of the activities we do online, which is so weird for us. Right. Because we do everything outside. And I can remember a teacher calling me and saying, I mean, she was in tears and she said, for me, that was the first time I saw some of these students faces. Because we engage them in play, we get them laughing, we get them having a good time. It's not just about challenge and struggle. Right. It's about.
- [52:08]
B
Right.
- [52:08]
A
Engaging them in that way so that they want to learn. And we were even able to do that online where the kids flipped on the cameras and for these teachers, they were like, we have not been able to get them to do that without forcing them to.
- [52:23]
B
Right, right.
- [52:25]
A
We haven't been able to get them to do that. And for somebody, I mean it's. It's a huge metaphor to say I'm going to flip on my calendar and. Or flip on my camera and now engage physically with you.
- [52:34]
B
Yeah.
- [52:35]
A
It's so much better if they can do it in person. And it's an embodied experience rather than a disembodied experience. Sort of what we're having right now, Right. I can't see all of your physical cues. I can't read the environment. So it would be way better if we're together. We can't. So tech serves a Purpose right now.
- [52:51]
B
Right.
- [52:51]
A
But yeah, I think that play is the crucible of learning and it's also a catalyst. It is the thing that opens the mind up and allows you to learn.
- [53:03]
B
Yeah. Yes. And then you just love it. It's like you have these experiences and, you know, like, you talk about the dog sledding. There is so much ambiguity there when you've never done it. You know, when you're from Florida and you're like, I'll go kayak. And they're like, no, no, that's not. No, no.
- [53:20]
A
That's in your comfort zone. You're not doing that.
- [53:22]
B
Yeah, we're gonna throw in the ambiguity. You talked about Utah. We went on a five day. We got invited by the Moab Adventure Center, a five day rafting trip down the Green River. And you fly in there.
- [53:33]
A
I know, exactly.
- [53:34]
B
Incredible. You know, you fly in. In this little Pratt plane. And I went, we. They invited. We've gone twice, but the first year they invited myself and one of our kids. And so my daughter went and we were like, how do you go to the bathroom? Like, we didn't know a groover. You know, then you learn about the groover. And actually, when it was over, I was like, gosh, I don't want to go to the bathroom indoors. Like, how boring. I go to the bathroom, watch the river go by, you know, but the ambiguity of like, well, what's it like to go in a little prop plane? What's it going to be like to sleep? Like, you just don't know. And so that's. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [54:08]
A
There's so much unknown. And, you know, we talk about the outdoors as an equalizer. So I don't care if you were the best outdoorsman on the planet. Like, we can have Boy Scouts and folks that come to us, they've got tons of experience. The outdoors can challenge everybody.
- [54:25]
B
That's right.
- [54:25]
A
The outdoors can really put everybody on an equal footing, which is lovely. And so it requires a mental resilience to be open to the experience. Right. To say, okay, I'm going to release my desire to control everything around me. I'm going to let that go into the river or the woods or whatever, and I'm just going to lean into this new experience again. That's a skill, right? That's a skill that we want people to have is to say, I'm willing to try something new. I'm willing to put myself out there, take a risk in the way that I'm not normally taking risks behind my desk or my computer. Get out there and just kind of step into unknown and see what happens.
- [55:05]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [55:05]
A
I think that's an important part that we don't talk a lot about. And in these conversations is the risk taking.
- [55:12]
B
Right?
- [55:13]
A
We want kids to be risk takers, and we do a lot to try to smash that down as adults. I mean, even at me as a parent, right. I can think of a thousand times where my husband's like, nope, you gotta let them. You gotta let them try, Ginger. And I'm like, but I want to protect them. I don't want them to. I don't want anything bad to happen to them.
- [55:30]
B
Right.
- [55:31]
A
Allowing them to take risks, though, is an incredible learning experience.
- [55:36]
B
Back to the nation of wimps, it says. I didn't say. I'm talking to her right after you. And I like, really like, like this book so much. She wrote, kids need to learn that you need to feel bad sometimes. We learn through experience and we learn especially through bad experiences, through disappointment and failure, we learn how to cope. We learn what we can cope with and that parents are taking pains to remove failure from every situation. But you know, when you're extraordinarily risk averse, you're also psychologically fragile. So that this is helping with your sense of self, informing your identity. There's just a lot here. There's so much here. And you can see how it would be super helpful in the shifting sands of time that we're in. So what an honor to meet a CEO.
- [56:20]
A
Oh, my God, please.
- [56:22]
B
What you're doing is so incredible. Outward Bound, it's like, gosh, I was like, oh, what an opportunity. I've heard of Outward Bound and I got to learn a little bit more as I was researching for it. So just such a treat for me to get a chance to talk with you. The reset day is coming on January 24, 2026. You can sign up, I'll make sure. I'll put the link in the show notes. We always end our show with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside?
- [56:44]
A
Oh, favorite memory from my. My childhood. I grew up, like I said, I grew up in rural kid on farms, farming community. That's where I was. And I had horses and I had friends that we would ride our horses together and we would just leave in the morning, venture out and not come back. Right. So I definitely had that Gen X childhood where I drank out of the hose and, you know, somebody's mom would leave a pitcher of cooler on a table outside for us. And that kind of thing. But we would ride our, our horses through the orange groves and that was back in the day when they had the big whirly gig sprinklers. So in the summertime, you would just ride out under the sprinklers and then go down to the river. River and go swim. You know, no parents are paying attention to us. We would come back with skinned up knees, dirty, probably hungry, or have eaten Little Debbie's crappy food. You know what I mean? Like, but those experiences are. Yeah. It kind of takes me back right now just even retelling it. I haven't thought about that in a while, but that's one of my favorite memories of being a kid and being with other groups of kids.
- [57:55]
B
Yeah.
- [57:56]
A
I mean, we had forts and we had hidey holes and, you know, we had all these games that we would play that no adult engineered for us. That's incredible.
- [58:05]
B
The freedom of that and that's the ambiguity and the mental flexibility and the nimbleness. So, you know, it just takes a little bit more intention in this day and age because it's. We're so steeped in screens to provide that for our kids.
- [58:16]
A
Right. Yeah. I mean, as a parent, it takes a lot of courage to say, I know. Everybody's telling me it's scary to let my kids hike in the woods for an hour without me watching him.
- [58:26]
B
Yeah.
- [58:28]
A
And I think the courage for parents has to come from a place of knowing that's what your kid needs. Your kid needs that time and they need it with other kids. It will help their development.
- [58:39]
B
That's right. Yeah. Yes. So much to learn. The reset day is coming. Ginger, thanks so much for being here.
- [58:48]
A
That was so easy. Thank you for making it so fun. That was lovely. The new year brings new health goals and wealth goals. Protecting your identity is an important step. Your info is in endless places that could expose you to identity theft leading to lost funds. Lifelock monitors millions of data points per second. If your identity is stolen, our restoration specialists will fix it, guaranteed or your money back. Resolve to make identity, health and wealth part of your New year's goals. With LifeLock, save up to 40% your first year. Visit LifeLock.com podcast terms apply.
- [59:25]
B
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