Jenny Urich (3:19)

Wow. One of the things you talk about is motherhood has a PR problem. Motherhood has a PR problem. And I mean, I think that that's very true. You know, you talk about how on Tick Tock and places like that, you know, the things that are getting the most views are the moms that are crying and saying, I had an awful day and, you know, I'm not going to make it through. And this is, this is really rough. So can you talk about. I mean, I, I guess for me, I, I'm not the, I'm like, maybe not the best, deepest thinker. Bethany. I'm just kind of like, ho hum, going along with my life. And when I look back, I, I just don't really see this. And maybe my mom just didn't talk about it. I don't really see it. Like, in the 80s and the 90s, it was like people just sort of lived. And now it feels like things are very, like I said, hot. You know, it's, it's very divided and like the fact that mother. How can mother even have a PR problem? But it does. And you, and you talk about, I mean, it is hard to A degree, but the. That we're just kind of making it out to be the worst thing. Glutton for punishment. Motherhood is where dreams and hopes and ambitions go to die. Is there a more nefarious reason? Who's pushing the PR on the side that is coming down on motherhood?

Bethany Mandel (4:34)

So I think that, I mean, so there was just. I'm going to write about it for the subset. There was just a New York Times video piece that was. They plugged it a lot. And the title of it was Motherhood should Come with a warning label. And it was women who were just weeping basically on camera about how they weren't making enough money, they weren't making as much money, their husbands weren't pitching in enough. And I. That is the kind of antinatalist content that we're seeing on the left. Like all of these warnings about how terrible motherhood is.

Jenny Urich (5:03)

Can you explain that word? Antinatalist?

Bethany Mandel (5:05)

Yeah. So natalism is this idea that like, children are a net good for our society. And so antinatalists are people who don't believe that children are a net good for our society and not good personally as well. And so we, I mean, we see this whole. We see this philosophy manifested in just the birth rates. If you look at the birth rates for a blue state and a red state, obviously it's a very rudimentary way of measuring this, but they're significantly different. Churchgoing people versus not church going people. I'm Jewish, so the same, the same. Like if you're more religious, you have more children. If you're not as religious, you have fewer children. But I'm, I'm seeing this even manifested among our side, among, like the more conservative, more religious. The birth rates in Utah, for example, used to be like the average woman had four, five, six kids in a Mormon family. Now you're down to two or three in an average religious Mormon family. That should be sending out serious warning flags to people who care about the future of our society. And we see people like Elon Musk talking about it a great deal, but he's not the poster child for natalism. Like he's had what, like 15 kids with how many different women? And he sees it as like this like breeding exercise. That's like really eugenist and creepy. The people who are stepping into the void are the Elon Musk's. Because it's hard to have these conversations because you don't want to be prescriptive. Like, everyone should have children. Like everyone kind of should have children because that's what we used to do when everything was okay.

Jenny Urich (6:37)

Natalism. I don't. You see, I'm, I've never even heard that word. Children are a net good. I would agree that they're net good for society.

Bethany Mandel (6:46)

Yeah, right. Like that's not, it's not controversial.

Jenny Urich (6:49)

Yeah. Yes. But then, okay, there is this whole group of people and maybe they're not huge, I don't know how big they are, but they are promoting this message basically of hating kids. And you talked about, and I thought this was really interesting, one of the things you talked about on the Mom War sub stack is that actually this is a career. So sometimes I think we can get really confused. I remember reading about a woman who was in the textbook industry. So we homeschool like you do, but she was in the textbook industry. And they're all, I was a teacher before, so you're always having these reps come in. They're like pharmaceutical reps, they're textbook reps. And it's all about making money. And this one woman from like whatever, Houghton Mifflin, they've all kind of combined these huge textbook companies, she said, I hate kids, I'm in it for the money. So, you know, there's a, there are these lucrative careers sometimes that involve not liking children. And so this one particular woman that you were talking about, and I think it kind of went viral, she was just like ranting and raving and saying all her are friends with little kids, they hate their lives. You said, well, she may not even believe all the things she's saying. It's just making her money.

Bethany Mandel (7:51)

Yeah, yeah. One of the things I love about Kara, my, my co partner on the mom wars is that she spends a lot of time on the Child Free Reddit. And it's, it's a font of just absolute lunacy. Like crazy, crazy people on there. But it's really fascinating wind into this philosophy. I mean, I think about like I went to high school. I spent my senior year of high school in New York City. I was like on the Upper west side at a public school. But like everyone was super liberal. Like here's an example. We had a class sponsored, a school sponsored trip to Cuba, which was illegal then to break the embargo. And so they did illegal trips to Cuba to learn about the revolution. Like that was how crazy my high school was. It ended up like a year or two after I graduated on the front page of the New York Post because the secret got out and people are like, oh, our tax dollars are paying for Illegal trips to Cuba. That's. That's kind of crazy. But that was my high school. I can think of three other people that I graduated with that had kids out of a class, like my entire high school class. I'm 38 years old. I'm not young. Three people had kids. Only one of them had more than one kid.

Jenny Urich (9:05)

She.

Bethany Mandel (9:06)

Her second pregnancy, got pregnant with twins, and so she had a crazy number. She had three children, but that's it. Like, no one else that I graduated high school with from this very liberal high school on the Upper west side. Four people out of an entire graduating class. It's craziness. And it's funny, because one of them, I was talking to them, and they were like, I'm starting to feel maybe ready. And I'm like, I've been a parent for 12 years. We're the same age. And this person was like, I'm just like, I don't know. I. I just don't think that I'm mature enough yet. I was like, if you're not mature at 38 years old, I. I don't know what to tell you. I don't.

Jenny Urich (9:46)

Well. And there is a biological window there that eventually closes, and you're not. That you're closer to that than. Than you are on the other end.

Bethany Mandel (9:55)

It's really.

Jenny Urich (9:56)

It's a fascinating thing, because I don't think that people will know the ramifications of that for decades. Yeah, you don't know the ramifications of not having kids and choosing that life until maybe you're in your 60s and you're looking around and some of these people you graduated with have grandkids. And I just read this book by Dr. Tom Cowan, and I threw my notes on the floor, but he basically said something like that grandkids are his greatest gift. I'm actually going to grab it, and you're going to see how messy my floor is. Are you ready?

Bethany Mandel (10:22)

Here we go. I love it, I think, because the.

Jenny Urich (10:25)

Oh, we didn't do it. Usually the camera follows and you'll be like, okay, that floor is filled with books. And here's what he said. I hope I can find it. That's what he. Oh, I don't know if I'm able to find it. But, I mean, it was basically, oh, here we go. Being a grandparent comes with no expectations and fewer anxieties. You don't worry about whether they behave right or meet their milestones. It's more like meeting pure joy. Grandparenting may be the final best gift we ever receive in our lives. Grandparenting may be the final, best gift we ever receive in our lives. So you don't know. I mean, you and me, we're not grandparents, so I can't, I can't relate to that. Yeah, but you, you can't just decide at some point to be a grandparent. You have to have the steps before.

Bethany Mandel (11:08)

So you have to put in the work.

Jenny Urich (11:09)

Right. So in the, so the ramifications, it's not. You can make a change for that.

Bethany Mandel (11:13)

Yeah.

Jenny Urich (11:14)

You know, when you're in your 60s or 70s, you just, or your 50s or whenever the grandkids come, you can't do that. So it's just an interesting, it appears to be shortsighted. Like, well, people have had kids for all of time and you're just going to decide not to.

Bethany Mandel (11:29)

Yeah, yeah. I, So I had six children. I'm an only child and I had six children. First of all, because I was an only child, there's a direct relationship between the two. But my parents died when I was young. My mom died when I was 16. My dad committed suicide two and a half years later. Not related. They were divorced and like, he just had some issues. Two and a half years later he killed himself. And I came from that experience. Like, I had no one. I wasn't close to my grandparents. I only had one set of grandparents and I wasn't close to them. Wasn't close to my aunts and uncles really. I wasn't really close to my cousins. I had one cousin who I was very close with who like got me through my early 20s. And without her, I don't know how I would have survived. But I didn't have like a tight knit family and it was really scary and really lonely to just be adrift in the world. And like, I knew I could just disappear and like, no one would really care. No one would really think anything of it. My one cousin that I was really close to admitted when my first daughter was born and we had like a party for her, she was like, you know, to be honest with you, we all kind of thought you'd become a drug addict and just like lose your mind. And I was like, fair. That's a, that's a.

Jenny Urich (12:40)

Well, sure, yeah. With that childhood and that trauma and no one and being alone.

Bethany Mandel (12:45)

But I took from that. Like, I wanted to have a family. I recognized the extreme importance of having a family. And I had our first kid and immediately I was like, I have to give her a sibling. I can't. She can't have what I had growing up. And so I had a baby 17 months later. And then it was just nothing but joy and fun. And we just kept having them again and again and again. And I used to joke that we kept having them because we never hit a dud. But I don't want my six that think that we hit a dud. Did not hit a dud. We just ran out of space in the car. But it just, I know the difference and I feel for these people because I see this older generation of people who are like in their 40s and 50s, this like first generation of child free people, like they're close to their siblings but like their parents are dying off and then they're like, oh. And they realize they're one sibling death away from alone. And that's scary. And I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I, I spent my early twenties alone and I would not wish it on anyone.

Jenny Urich (13:47)

Ah, wow. You really come from that distinct experience that probably most people would not have. Right. You know, you're an only child and you lose your parents as a teenager, both of your parents, and don't have this extended family. What a distinct experience to be able to speak from. We have five kids. I never know what constitutes a large family or not. You know, is it four, is it six? But I mean, it's fantastic. And was it hard for a bit, like really hard because you're exhausted. Yeah, but it was just, I mean, but it's over already. I mean, now our kids are 9 to 17. People can drive. It is wonderful. It's so wonderful. I mean, it's the best thing ever, all these kids and it's so much fun and everybody gets along and you go do all these fantastic things. I just think, gosh, I mean, I can't explain more how wonderful it is, how wonderful homeschooling has been. So, so you've got these six kids and one of the things you talk about is how it strengthened your marriage. And I remember hearing that from a mom who had, I think she has 10 a long time ago, she, she brought that up to me and I thought, well, that's kind of counterintuitive. You know, you think with all these kids and you need more resources and they're clawing at you all the time, like this is going to ruin your marriage. And she's basically said, well, who else are you going to be with? You know, like you're kind of just bonded together. And you, you posted this gorgeous photo on your substack of after you'd had One of your babies. And you wrote my in it, your husband. You're just kind of staring into each other's eyes. This, like, triumphant look of joy and connection. It's a gorgeous picture. And this is what I'm saying. The writing is really funny. You write, my doula took it. And though it looks beautifully composed, it wasn't staged. She stuck around for an hour after the birth, probably because everything happened so quickly and considering how much we paid her, wanted to make sure she spent enough time with us, which I totally get. So you have a baby that comes fast and you know that do, like, gets this picture and. And you have this. This feeling. And this is what I mean. We have a kind of. A little bit of a rocky marriage. I. I've talked about just very briefly here and there, but we struggle. I think we both have, like, similar personalities. We're opinionated. There's just a lot of factors there. Nothing, like, super horrible, but just, like, we have a hard time getting along, but we do feel like we're doing it. Like we're getting these kids and we're taking them places. And, you know, and we've. We made it. And that's sort of what you said. We made it. We survived, like, as a team. That's super counterintuitive. Bethany, can you talk about how having more kids might help your marriage? 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Bethany Mandel (19:50)

So I feel like our marriage hit a stride after our third was born. He was born in my husband's car. Not on purpose. It was a total accident. And it was funny because I was joking after that birth that you're talking about, that was number two. I joked the whole rest of the third pregnancy that I, because my number two came so fast, I was gonna end up having number three in a car. And then I did. And so I was so nervous that people would think I like did it for attention or something. I was like, no, no, no. I just have babies really fast. And that's why I spent a whole pregnancy joking about how I would have a baby in the car. I did not really want to, but we felt like we went through fire, that experience. Like I had a baby on the side of the road. It was just him and me. It was very scary. It was traumatic. I would not recommend it. And afterwards it was just like we would just went through some stuff and like birth is some stuff no matter how you have the baby. But that was like a next level. And I just felt like we were a team. I could totally put my trust in him and I did. In that moment of like having that baby in the front seat of his car. Like, it was just him and it was just I. And I had to just totally put my trust in him that like he was giving the right directions to 911 and that he had his hands where I hoped they were, but I couldn't see over my belly. And hopefully he's doing it right. And he did. He did everything right. And the 911 got there as soon as they could and all those things. But I felt like we had a very rocky start to our marriage and there was like a period where I thought we were going to get divorced and it was a total lack of communication and a. We just kept seeing bad faith in the other. So like, if I was quiet or if he was quiet, we'd just assume the other person was mad at us and, like, weave this entire backstory of why he's mad at me. And I just had to stop attributing bad motives to him all the time because he's a good person, and that's why I married him. And I love him very much. And we went to a therapist who was wonderful, who, like, taught us how to communicate. And it was interesting because the hardest thing about our marriage, I think, was that we came from very different places. Like, he grew up middle class with very loving, wonderful parents, and he's the middle of three kids. He has two loving sisters on either end. Like, he had an abnormally lovely upbringing. I had the opposite. My parents were divorced. I, like, grew up very poor. And so every time he spent money, I resented him. Every time he was quiet, I thought we were going to get divorced, and I was ready to get divorced. And the therapist, like, really taught me how to, like, not assume the worst all the time. And. And taught him that, like, this is the catastrophizing way your wife thinks all the time because her parents got divorced and then they died. So, like, you have to recognize that, like, you have to be a little gentle with her. And, like, even though I, like, come off tough, like, it's because I've had to develop a very tough outer shell because of all of those things. And so the therapy was wonderful, and she was great. And I used to. I don't anymore because I think it would be weird, like, 10 years later, keep sending her pictures. But the first, like, kid or two, I sent her a picture, and I was like, this child exists because of you. Like, you fixed our marriage, and now we're very happy and we have children. But I think it's just that, like, if you go into it as a team and you don't lay there in the middle of the night and keep score of, like, I woke up the last three times it is his turn, and he just doesn't want to wake up because he's lazy. Like, that is toxic thinking that you need to reverse in your brain or that's when you hit the skids.

Jenny Urich (23:37)

But isn't an interesting thing, Bethany. It's like, well, this is the point of life. The point of life is that you grow. And so what a wonderful gift, if you look at it that way. You learned how to communicate. You wouldn't have learned how to communicate probably otherwise, like, you're forced to do it. You go to this therapist, and then you work through your own issues and you Understand yourself better. I feel that way about my midwife. I. You know, like, she took us on. I'd had two cesarean sections and then ended up having home births. And so I'm. I think about that with some of my kids. I'm like, this child wouldn't exist except for you took us on and, you know, and then we will be able to make a change, and you grow through it, even though there's hard parts. So you. You talk about the. The common cultural narrative is that kids ruin marriages, where you're like, no, we want to make this work. And so what ended up happening was your marriage got better, and you grew as a person, as an individual, and that helps your family. It helps other people. Dr. Morgan Cutlet just came out with a book called A Better Share. It's a wonderful marriage book. And she talks a lot about this sort of tit for tat. You know, I did this. You do that. Like, how do we talk about that better? How do we talk about the mental load? You know, that's often the wife carries and needs to sort of try and offload that. How can we do that? She gives all these specific examples of how to do it. And so there are wonderful resources out there. And you talk about this on the Mom Wars. One of the reasons we started the mom wars is because after more than a decade of motherhood, we realize there are so many negative perceptions about parenting, and they're wrong. And they're designed to undermine marriage and relationships and motherhood and growth. Really just human growth.

Bethany Mandel (25:09)

Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like that's been one of the gifts that motherhood has given me, more than marriage, I think, is that I've had six very different people, and learning how to interface with them has been such a growing thing for me as a person, especially one that didn't grow up with close family. For the most part, I have had to learn how to communicate with all six people who communicate very different ways and who have very different brains. And my second was really, like, a trial by fire, because he is. It's funny. He's actually just like a miniature version of my husband. And so I'm like, how are we so happily married? Because I really struggle with you, but I had to, like, really learn how to communicate with him. And, like, every way that I communicate is, like, the worst way that he communicates. Like, that is how you just send him through the roof. And so, like, one thing that I do, for example, I. I try to be respectful of them because they are like human beings. As Charlotte Mason says, like born persons, like, I don't, I don't want to betray that confidence and that trust that I. But I can say this. I think I'm a very physically affectionate person with my children. I'm like on literally on top of them, suffocating them, kissing them all the time. And he is not a physical person and he does not like to be hugged, he does not like to be touched. And it's like I have to learn how to hold back and I can't, but I will and I shall. And he just like I have to learn how to communicate with him in a much more like, muted way, in a much more calm way. It's like really, really been a challenge because I am suffocating. And we joke that like I had six children because if I was that physically affectionate with like one or two of them, they would die. So I, yeah, I need to be.

Jenny Urich (27:01)

Able to spread it around. But, but that's the whole thing is, is learning how to adjust to other people. It's a wonderful thing. And even so. So my husband has a sister that's seven and a half years older. And so that's typically what they say. It's almost like you're raised like an only child. I think they say if there's a seven year gap, it's almost like you're raised as an only child. And now we've got five kids and I've got two brothers, so. And they're pretty close in age. I mean, we grew up and it was loud and everyone's like, you know, fighting all the time, but also loving each other. It's just lo got siblings, you're running around as kids. So I do, I think even one thing that's impressive is when you come from a situation as an only child, I mean, it was quiet. It was quiet so much of your childhood. And then you've got these six kids.

Bethany Mandel (27:42)

So it's so funny that you, that you say this. Yeah. This is the absolute hardest part of motherhood for me is the, is the volume 100%. I say it all the time. The volume is really, really hard for me. I don't understand why the normal speaking voice is a yell. I don't, I don't think that's.

Jenny Urich (28:02)

Because there's six kids. So you're like trying to get in your point. Right. So you have to be loud, you know, and they're, they're going to think nothing of it when they become adults if they're. Because I don't care you know, it's loud in the car. It's loud. And so my husband's like, gosh, it's so loud. And I'm like, I don't. Doesn't matter to me. But you have grown. I mean, what a thing to grow through and. And to learn to adjust. It's incredible. Bethany.

Bethany Mandel (28:24)

I really struggle. It is the hardest part is the volume and people laugh, and I'm like, no, it is a sensory assault all the time. And it's funny because I went to London on vacation with my older five children and I left my husband with our youngest. And we felt bad it was just one kid left behind. But I was like, bringing five kids to London by myself is already really, really hard. I can't bring the two year old also. And so we felt badly that we left him behind. And we got home and my husband was like, oh, he lived his best life. He was an only child for a week. And as soon as we got off the plane and we were talking to him, we were like, oh, my God, you're talking way more and using way more vocabulary and forming way more complex sentences. And all of us at the same time is like, oh, he was allowed to talk. That was it. That was. It just took a week of us all being gone for him to be like, oh, now I have to, like, form sentences and I can, like, communicate one on one with an adult. And the leaps and bounds that he took developmentally, one week, I almost feel bad because they were really successful. Well, that's the thing.

Jenny Urich (29:31)

And that's the thing about life, though. I mean, there's blessings, there's. There's pros and cons to everything. And there, you know, but he's going to grow up and have five older siblings and have this safety net of people around him and whatever. He'll learn to talk when needs to. That's just how it goes. Your birth order, I think it adds a lot of fun variety to the world. So one of the things you talk a lot about then is the blessings of a large family. Really how it helps you to let go. I mean, you talked about. I thought this was funny. Bethany, you were saying, you know, with your first. And I had this. I had some sort of a notebook. My mom was like, what is that? It is like you're tracking every time they went to the bathroom. And, you know, and I had this on Facebook because I feel like Facebook was like, big when I first became a mom. So I, When I look back, I'm like, oh, my gosh, People Must have hated me. We started doing. Now we homeschool, right? And we're pretty loose with it at this point. I didn't teach my youngest even how to read or write. She can just do it.

Bethany Mandel (30:24)

I listen to that podcast. That was good.

Jenny Urich (30:26)

Yeah. So there she goes. But for my oldest, when he turned 18 months, a year and a half, I started all of these lessons with him. And, like, we did all these crafts, but basically, I was doing the crafts, and it was. And I posted every single week. It was like J week. And I have all these activities. Anyway, you put I was insufferable. I now realize that's what you wrote.

Bethany Mandel (30:46)

On mom was completely insufferable.

Jenny Urich (30:48)

That's how people probably thought about me.

Bethany Mandel (30:50)

I did the same thing, and it's so embarrassing to me now. I'm like. And I joke that nobody wants to have children. I'm like, of course no one wanted to have children. Like, look what I was doing. Who would want to do that? Narrator. You don't have to do any of that. Don't do it. It's not necessary. Just go. I mean, just go outside. I know I'm preaching to the choir with this audience, but, like, literally, just go outside. That's all you need. And don't drive yourself crazy. And that's the other reason why I wanted to start the mom wars. And, like, the whole my entire motherhood sort of Persona in the last, I think eight, nine years has just been sending the message, like, you're trying too hard. Calm down. Stop. Stop driving yourself nuts. And I say that as someone who spends all of her time with her children, and I homeschool. Like, people think that I'm this martyr, that, like, I'm. I'm living for my children. Like, first of all, I have a whole career that's separate from my children. But, like, even if you don't, like, I don't live for my children. They. We are all a unit. We're all part of the same family. But I, like, my entire existence doesn't stop and end with them. And I think that that's a very toxic message that I hear on the right. That, like, you have to live and die for your children, and every decision has to be made for their benefit. And, I mean, I see it honestly, universally. So I think that, like, mother. What are they called? Child friendly hospitals, like, the maternity wards. So it's very interesting, but basically, they got rid of the nursery to have the label as child friendly.

Jenny Urich (32:25)

Okay.

Bethany Mandel (32:26)

They more or less don't have the nursery. And you're like, they demand that you breastfeed. They demand like all of these things.

Jenny Urich (32:34)

Why are we so controlling?

Bethany Mandel (32:36)

And they completely erase like the mother's needs in there. And so they say it's best for the child to be rooming in with their mother. Okay, sure. But that's not always the best for the mother. If you've just had a 36 hour labor and then a C section, take that baby and don't feel any shame as a mother. There's so much shame in motherhood and how they, they exert control over us. And they is like all of society, right and left, exert control over us by shaming us. And so if you don't breastfeed people perfectly, you should feel shame. If you don't room in, you should feel shame. If you don't homeschool, you should feel shame. I know so many people who feel shame if they don't homeschool. And it's just like you have to do what's best for you and not, not be sorry about it because you are a human being that like deserves to be part of this equation. It's not all 100% the child here. And I think that that is a very toxic mentality that has taken hold in our society. I think it's why a lot of people decide to have fewer children or not have children because they don't want to exist purely for the sake of another human being. That's not healthy.

Jenny Urich (33:44)

But it's just backwards. It's, it's really not the way that everyone thrives. And I, that's something that I've been learning a lot about over the past probably decade, which is that. And a couple people are talking about it. They say in this. I'm talking to Dr. Madeline Levine later today. I was like, I need to find her notes because I took the notes. She says, when you thrive, your kids thrive.

Bethany Mandel (34:04)

Yep.

Jenny Urich (34:05)

And a lot of people talk about that, you know, they. Not a lot. Not enough. I read this book about sports of ironically, of all things, Bethany. It's called Take Back the Game. It's about youth sports mania. Right. Like, you know, there's billions of dollar industry and basically people are spending all their time on youth sports. And she writes this book and she says, what message are we sending to kids about adulthood? She says, we're basically sending the message. It's a big bore. All you do is sit on the sidelines. It doesn't matter if you're like sweltering hot or you're, you know, it's pouring down rain. You just sit on the sidelines and that's what adult life is. And she says, no, we have to give a better picture of what adulthood is like. Maybe kids are remaining kids for so long and they're not launching partly because they don't want to this boring life that we've portrayed to them. And Dr. Madeline Levine says the same thing. She says, we have this thought like, I'll go back to my own life when my kids are grown. For now, my job is to give them everything they need. That's my legacy. But she says, no, parents are entitled to a life of their own. And what is the message you are sending your kids about the value of other people, mothers in particular? And this is what she says. She says on Mother's Day, her phone rings a lot. This Dr. Madeline Levine people are like, my kids send me tired flowers. You know, they, they, they send a text, you know, happy Mother's Day. And she says, well, did you train them to value you as a person?

Bethany Mandel (35:26)

Yes. Yep. Yep.

Jenny Urich (35:28)

So I would agree that, you know, it's like, it's really not that big of a deal. Like, you don't, it doesn't have to be like you're driving your kid to everything that you're, you're manufacturing a moment every single day for them. Think that the, what people would view as the detriment of a large family, which is like, you don't know what food they ate, you don't know if they ate food off the floor. You know, these are actually the things that are really good for them. It's helping them build their immune system. And it's teaching you to let go.

Bethany Mandel (35:54)

And it's also teaching you independence and resilience. That was something that my mother, my mom was sick my entire life, and so her death when I was 16 was not a surprise. And she taught me independence, she taught me how to cook, she taught me how to argue with an insurance, a health insurance company, all of these things. Balancing a checkbook, writing a check that when she died when I was 16, I was way more prepared than almost any other 16 year old I've ever known, except the homeschool kids. Honestly, I think a lot of homeschool kids would probably be fine if their mom dropped out at 16, but she knew that I needed to be resilient. And so that also meant not indulging drama and not indulging, you know, big emotions. And that's something that really frustrates me in like the sort of positive parenting, gentle parenting world. It's like you have to like understand where they're coming from and, and empathize with them and have a discussion if they don't want to put their shoes on. Like when you have six children, I don't have time to hear why you don't want to put your shoes on. I don't care and I'm not sorry. I don't care why you don't want to put your shoes on because this is a we're doing and you need to move your butt out the door and you will get over it. And like yesterday when we went to the Smithsonian, three of my, my three younger children wanted to go and my three older children didn't want to go. And I said to my older three children, I don't care. You had an entire childhood of those young years where we did everything that you wanted to do. Well, guess what, it's your turn now. We're going to bring this 2 year old and 4 year old and 6 year old who love airplanes and rockets and you are going to walk and you're going to shut up and be positive. And that is like mind blowing to people nowadays. Like, no, people don't talk to their children like that. And tldr at the end of the day, my older three kids said that was actually really fun. We had a great time. I'm like, yeah, because I wouldn't countenance the like nasty attitude and the complaining. I was like, you need to shut up and get out the door and you will be fine.

Jenny Urich (37:58)

And it's for the good of everyone. And that's, that's part of how life is, right? It's like there's a lot of times in life where you're like, well, for the good of someone else, I am going to make this decision. I got to go to these things and do these things when I was little. So now I'm going to do them with my little siblings because so that they get the chance. And so that's like those are life skills. And like you even talk about how you don't bring snacks.

Bethany Mandel (38:19)

I try.

Jenny Urich (38:21)

You know, it's another thing, you know, you got all these kids. I'm like, how are you supposed to have enough snacks? And also everyone saying snacking. Not everyone. Dr. Kate Shanahan, she's saying, don't snack. It's better for your blood sugar and your all around health, right? So you know, you're saying, look, you know, all the other moms have bento boxes and you're like, I've got Nothing. And they're like, I'm hungry, Mom. And you're like, I don't care, just go play. We're gonna eat dinner in an hour. But you're like, you know, you say it's one surefire way to stand out at the playground.

Bethany Mandel (38:51)

Yeah, I'm like, I think there might be like a half stale bag of like pretzels in the car if you want to go get it. I'm not going to go get it, but feel free. They should probably just be thrown out at this point. If you want to consume them, great. We only won't be wasteful. But no, I mean, I think this, this lack of resiliency that we see in like 20 year olds is because their parents brought the bento box and did everything. And like they weren't ever allowed to experience a moment of discomfort. Everything was just done for them. The magical bento box appeared the moment a pang of hunger arrived. And there's so many. And the snack boxes are I think a perfect example of how the way that, I mean I was parented and I think a lot of older generations parented how it just makes sense. And I feel like a dumb dumb for taking like eight years to realize it. Because when I deny the snacks at 4pm or I say you can just have a piece of fruit or whatever, they eat dinner and it's not a battle. And I'm like, why was it, why was I letting them like eat a meal at 4:30 when I like, then they don't eat the chicken at dinner at 6 o'. Clock. And so that was like a realization that I really felt like a real dumb dumb for taking as long as I did to realize that like providing snacks at every single moment is actually bad for them because they're not eating the good foods at dinner and they're instead eating chips or pretzels or whatever. And that's not healthy. You're not doing them any favors.

Jenny Urich (40:20)

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Bethany Mandel (42:47)

Hard because they think that they're going to have to replicate it times six. Like my first kid was so hard And I was doing the snack box and I was doing the crafts and I was doing. And I would think, I can't do this times six. I would lose my mind. And I never thought I would have six when I only had one. And then I started to let go and I realized, like, oh, this is healthier for them. It's definitely healthier for me. Why was I doing so much when that doesn't help anyone? It's not a positive on any part of this board. And so when people hear that I homeschool, they think that I'm a cruise director. And I'm constantly like, like, I'm like an octopus. Like, you do this and you do this and you're doing this. And yeah, that is not what I do at all. And I have six kids now. And people ask, like, what do the younger kids do when I'm homeschooling? As if like everyone else is sitting at a desk with like their pencil and their workbook.

Jenny Urich (43:42)

Yes, yes.

Bethany Mandel (43:43)

And I'm like, well, they're sitting there listening to the story that I'm reading. And like, are they getting much out of like the. No, of course not. Like, they're just sitting along for the ride. And they're my favorite part about homeschooling, which I instituted. And I like, like, my kids have a checklist every day that they get through and 90% of it is just reading, but reading different things. And one of the things that I have on my older three kids checklist is read to siblings RT R number 2s and I give them a stack of like blueberries for Sal and like Alexander and the horrible day, like all of these, like wonderful children's books that I'm not reading to them enough. And I recognize I'm not reading to them enough. And reading is super duper, duper important. I like, like Jim Trellise's book, the Read aloud Handbook. Megan Cox Gordon, the Enchanted Hour. Like, reading is so, so, so, so important. And my younger kids were not getting enough of it. And so I assigned to my 11, 10 and 8 year old, pick a book from this stack and read it to your younger siblings once a day. And that is one of the things that's on your checklist. And every. It's a win, win. And so when people ask me, like, what are my younger kids doing? They're often getting read to by their older siblings or playing with their older siblings. And it's wonderful. And it's just the whole family basically read aloud.

Jenny Urich (45:03)

Yeah, I love that stuff too. I remember when I read Sarah McKenzie. She's got the read aloud family. That really that book changed my life because I was under the impression and I think part of life is that you just don't know these things. I was under the impression that if you once they can read, you stop reading to them. And she says no, no, like you know, you want to keep reading and that even the picture books have words that you wouldn't normally here in everyday conversation. So a book like Blueberries for Salk, whatever. I don't and I don't remember the rest of the book, but there are words in there, even though it's a picture book that's meant for little kids that, that are good to hear out loud, that are good to pronounce, that are good to say. So this is benefiting and Dr. Peter talks about it all the time. The multi child, multi age experience is one of the biggest things that we're missing. It's good for the older kid and it's good for the younger kid.

Bethany Mandel (45:52)

It's.

Jenny Urich (45:52)

And it's good for the parent but to have these different things. So with the homeschooling, it's almost like those things that appear to be a lack. Gosh, six kids, they're all at different levels. That's ridiculous. You should never do that. But you're like, no, if, if you can let go a little bit, then you start to see that there's a lot of gains that aren't even because of you. They're just because of the environment and the way that it's structured, which is just very similar to how life is structured, which is multi age and you know, and trying to find what your pass passionate about and learning how to use your downtime and what do you use it for in all of those different things. So homeschooling is the best decision we've ever made as a family. I do not regret it for one second. I told this story and I, and I tell it occasionally, but our daughter, our oldest daughter, when she was a teenager she was in this like small group thing and she, she's like a new teenager, she's in this small group and she came home and she said, mom, she said the other girls talk about how much they fight with their moms and she goes, why would anybody fight with their mom?

Bethany Mandel (46:55)

I so I so in the Jewish community, so I'm an Orthodox Jew. We haven't even gotten into that, but I'm in, I'm an orthodox Jew and no one homeschools in my community, it's really Challenging on a social level. And I posted in a Facebook group of other Orthodox moms. I homeschool ama. Like, I'm just. I feel like I'm, like, trying to proselytize homeschooling to judge Orthodox Jews unsuccessfully for many years. One day I'll be successful. And a woman commented, and she said, because I don't want to be my daughter's best friend, or I don't want my daughter to be my best friend, as in, like, she wanted to have a social life and that. So she didn't want her daughter to be her best friend. And my daughter is almost 12. And I showed her that comment, and my daughter's response was like, that is so sad. I'm like, you're my bestie. And we get along so well. And these tween. There's so many lies that I think we're told about motherhood. And one of them is that, like, moms and daughters have to hate each other and their tweens and teens and motherhood, for me, in a lot of ways has been a realization that, like, everything that I was told was a lie. Like, birth is the worst, and you have to, you know, be drugged out of your mind for it to be tolerable. The terrible twos, the terrible threes, all of these things that I've just been reliably assured will be the worst have been lovely. Not that I love childbirth, don't get me wrong, but. But, like, I did it, and it was an accomplishment, and I'm glad I did it.

Jenny Urich (48:27)

Yeah.

Bethany Mandel (48:28)

And. And I'm glad I did it the way I did it. I also had natural births. I also had home births. And my. My daughter's 12 now. And I've been reliably informed by the experts, the parenting experts, the mommy bloggers of the world, that I hate my daughter. My daughter hates me. And it could not be farther from the truth. She is my best girl. She's at day camp right now, and I miss her terribly. She's going to go to sleepaway camp for a month. I hate it with every fiber of my being, but it's like this rite of passage in the Jewish world that I just have to let go. But she's wonderful and so delightful. Yesterday, no, two days ago, we were at synagogue and we were chatting, and it was just the two of us talking, and she saw a guy come out and with the cart to set up the after service. It's called kiddish. Like, the after service, not meal, but, like, it feels like a meal. And he does it alone every week. And she said, hold on, I want to go help him. He does this alone every week. It's so wrong. No one helps him. And she got up and took the tablecloths and set out half the tablecloths for him, helped him unpack the whole wagon. And she came back and I was like, I am so fagargon proud of you. You are such a thoughtful, kind, observant person that I am so proud of. And I felt like I was gonna cry. And these moments that I have with her at home where, like, she does small, really thoughtful, wonderful things and she gets the attention for it and she gets the praise for it that grows into. It's like little Lego blocks. And then they grow as a 12 year old into someone who's so thoughtful and considerate and kind and observant. That's something that I really try to inculcate is that. That being observant to see that guy does do it alone. And that's wrong. And I'm so proud that you realize that, because I didn't even think about it. It's just magic. You know, all the tablecloths are out and all the food is out. And I never was cognizant of it. And my daughter taught me something like, I need to be more aware of the fact that, like, it's not magic, that it's set up every week. And so I just, I. I love, I love my kids and I love spending time with them. And I think it's because we've put in the time and we've put in the effort.

Jenny Urich (50:48)

And I. I just think that when you homeschool, they end up in some ways being easier kids because they're not exhausted and they're not stressed out. And so sometimes we think, you know, if you're thinking about pulling your kid out of a situation, you're like, gosh, I couldn't spend time around that kid, but that kid's gonna change because that kid is not gonna be, you know, quite so at the end of their rope. And it just is. It's just really different. There are not the butting of heads. The Michaeline Duclef wrote a book called Hunt Gather Parent, one of my favorite parenting books. And she says it is a lifelong skill to understand the situation around you and then know what to do to do. A lifelong skill. And Sahil Bloom just wrote a book called the Five Types of Wealth. And he said, if you can look at a situation and figure out what to do, he said, people will fight over you. You will never be wanting for a job because people will fight over you. Well, how do you learn to be the type of person that can look around and fill a gap and fill a need? You don't become that type of person when your day is structured for you all the way because you, you never do that. You don't have any experience, a lifelong skill to understand the situation around you when, and then know what to do. And so that happens in these situations that feel maybe a little bit more chaotic. And you know, you're looking around, you're like, I could read a book to my two year old sibling or whatever. We are running out of time. But I do want to mention you talk about with homeschooling. You say that people are constantly like, well, how, you know, how are your kids keeping up? And you weren't even that good at math. So how, you know, how are you going to teach your kid to do math? And you weren't all that good at it. And people are constantly asking you that and you're like, well, wait a minute. You're like, the numbers of the public schools are not that good.

Bethany Mandel (52:25)

First of all. Okay, so if I sent my kids to the local public school, they would be one of 10% of children who are doing math on grade level that are proficient. Not even grade level, whatever, whatever grade level means proficiency. And this is the test that these people make up and only 10% of them are passing it. It. But I think to myself, like, where do you think I learned how to do math so well? The public school.

Jenny Urich (52:48)

Right, Exactly. Isn't it funny that an honors graduate of public school. So you're an honors graduate?

Bethany Mandel (52:53)

Yes.

Jenny Urich (52:54)

Can't do fifth grade math now. I would say the same thing. I was also in honors. Like I was in a, I was in a magnet program. I skipped a grade. Like I don't know where the comma goes. So I mean that's the thing, there's always holes.

Bethany Mandel (53:07)

But that's the thing I love about homeschooling and like having a more whole person view of life and family life, mother and child. I think that one of the things that we don't talk about enough as homeschoolers is the fact that I grew so much. And I think this is something that you talk about very well, but very few people do. I have grown so much, I have learned so much. I can walk through an art museum and I can pick out a Degas. Yes, my kids can pick out a Degas now, but I can pick out a Degas and I know their backstory. And I have learned math from kindergarten now to fifth grade in a different way that is much. Makes much more sense. And I. I do mental math much better now than I did five years ago. And I think it's one of the. Like, on unadvertised parts of homeschooling. My, my. I'm so much better read now than I was. I've read so many children's classics that I never read as a kid. And I just. I. I've. I've grown leaps and bounds as a person, as a mother, and as a human.

Jenny Urich (54:10)

I mean, no kidding. Do you know, I've never read Jane Eyre. Like, I haven't read any of those. I. What happened? I have no idea what happened. I haven't read Oliver Twist. I've not read Charles Dickens. I read none of it. And so actually, I was with my daughter. We were at this cool bookstore, and we picked one out. So she's rating Jane Eyre, she says, the most boring book she's ever read, but she's gonna pass it to me after, and I'm gonna read it now. We're gonna talk about it. So you say one of. And this is kind of the whole. I feel like one of the whole points of the whole conversation, talking about marriage, talking about large families. You say this. One of the most wonderful things about homeschooling and having kids in general is learning so much about myself in the process and growing as a person as a result. Before I had kids, I hated to go to art museums, like your mom made you go. We have that with this place called Greenfield Village that's by us. It's like, just all these old buildings. I'm like, that's the worst place to go. And now I'm taking my kids, you know, and we're having kind of fun sometimes, only if it rains and there's lots of good puddles. But, you know, you say walking the halls of these art museum is now one of your favorite ways to spend an afternoon. And it's like, what if this is partly the point about life? The point about life is you grow. You do hard things so that you grow. And then at the end, the best part about it, your best final parting gift, which we haven't experienced yet, but we're going to get back on in 10 years and talk about it 15 years, that the final parting gift. Gift are these grandkids. The final, best gift we ever receive.

Bethany Mandel (55:33)

We will have that gift, I think, because we show our children how much joy they bring us and so they do, they want to have children because we have modeled for them. The fact that, like, you are a blessing. You bring me so much away. And that's something that I tell my children when I put them to bed every night. I, we say instead of God, we say Hashem. And so I say, thank you, Hashem, for giving me the gift of being your mother. I love being your mom. And all my kids, even my four year old talks about like, when am I going to be a daddy? When I want to be a daddy. And I'm like, yes, yes, yes. Like, because you realize that your dad is so happy and your mom is so happy and you are a gift and we're so blessed. And I, like, I was walking down the stairs today holding my feet, four year old on one hip and my two year old on the other, and I looked at my husband and I said, I'm the rich. I'm the richest woman in America. Look at this. And that's what they grow up hearing. And in 10, 15 years they're going to want that. And then I get to, I cash in as the grandma.

Jenny Urich (56:35)

Yep. Yeah. You don't do tests in your homeschool. I mean, there's wonderful things to learn about. That was like a weird transition, but I wanted to say it because I had it in red on my thing. And the mom wars substack, the mom wars podcast. Bethany what an honor. Homeschooling, mother of so fun and so fun. So many wonderful things to talk about. Important things to talk about. Because partially for me, I feel like some of my misguided decisions in life have been because I just didn't think about them. I didn't know to think about them. It was just sort of the cultural soup. And you don't make any distinct decisions because you don't know to. So I think these are important things to talk about and to consider. If motherhood has a PR problem. What should we know about that? What should we know about homeschooling? What should we know about large families? You talk about how Ben Franklin was like kid number eight or something. And you're like, well, you know, obviously for some people have health things, but you're like, well, what if that mom would have stopped and that what kid, you know, what kid is still going to be here because you keep having babies, Right? So you say, every time I think I'm done, I'm like, well, wait, but what about Ben Franklin?

Bethany Mandel (57:34)

Have I had Ben Franklin yet? Is he here?

Jenny Urich (57:37)

I know he was the, the youngest. Oh, he was the youngest of 13.

Bethany Mandel (57:43)

Yes.

Jenny Urich (57:43)

Is that right?

Bethany Mandel (57:44)

Yes.

Jenny Urich (57:45)

Of his dad and eighth of his mom's.

Bethany Mandel (57:47)

Yeah.

Jenny Urich (57:47)

So, yeah, anyway. Yeah. So these large families, you just don't know who's. Who's coming down the line. Bethany, we always end our show with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside.

Bethany Mandel (57:57)

Oh, golly. Favorite memory that was outside. So, I mean, I think the beach, honestly, I grew up on Long island and I loved the beach. Even when I got stung and had to pee on my leg. It was just. It was such a joy. I was such a joy being on the beach all the time. It's what I don't like about where I live. I live in the D.C. area and we live really far from the beach and I wish we lived closer. And I've discovered that I'm a beach person in the last two years because of a beach tent. I got a beach tent and now I'm like, oh, you don't have to like, broil. You can just be in the water and then be in the tent.

Jenny Urich (58:35)

Yeah.

Bethany Mandel (58:37)

It'S a small thing that, like a $25 purchase a few years ago that made all the difference in my life. A beach tent and the water, oh.

Jenny Urich (58:45)

My goodness, it just engages the kids and the waves and the sand so much. Open ended play. Bethany, what an honor. What a fun conversation. Thank you so much for being here. The new year brings new health goals and wealth goals. Protecting your identity is an important step. Your info is in endless places that could expose you to identity theft leading to lost funds. LifeLock monitors millions of data points per second. If your identity is stolen, our restoration specialists will fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Resolve to make identity, health and wealth part of your New Year's goals with Lifelock. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast terms apply. It's time to hit Reset. Not the snooze button. Reset the crank it up. Start fresh. Go big. Reset. Dave's Killer Bread believes greatness starts with killer taste, killer nutrition. And now a shot to rock your reset for real. Kick off the new year with an epic sweepstakes. Enter for a chance to win VIP concert prize packs with round trip airfare, luxury hotel stay and much more. So reset your routine, reset your own soundtrack, reset your expectations. Enter and see full rules for the Rock youk reset sweepstakes@daveskillerbread.com reset.