Dr. Joel Mutamali (3:21)

Yeah.

Jenny Urch (3:22)

So can you talk about your path? What. What's your path to. Were you always a Bible nerd? Is it everything?

Dr. Joel Mutamali (3:28)

Yeah. No, that's such a good question. Now, I, I often get like, seminary students. They'll come up to me like, joel, how did you. How did you do? Like, how are you doing? I want to do what you're doing. And I'll kind of laugh and be like, I don't know. Like, I. I honestly don't know. And I think the Christian life is kind of like that. And it's something I try to communicate to my kids often. Um, it's less about massive leaps of like, oh, this is that huge moment of faith, and much more about, like small steps of obedience of, nope, just do the very next thing that's in front of you. And so for me, the path. This kind of odd, but the path was a English teacher when I was a freshman in high school who taught me how to actually read. Professor Scheidecker, I won't ever forget. He, like, kind of opened my eyes to reading. Not flat, but multi layered and really asked a question. What is the Author trying to get us to think and to feel. So we read, like, To Kill a Mockingbird, you know, like, I remember working through To Kill a Mockingbird and just being amazed at like, the depth of what's happening. And then, honestly, the big thing was we worked through the Iliad and the Odyssey, and as we're working through those two novels, my imagination exploded. And I've always been a nerd, so I've always been into superheroes. I've always been into, you know, just any of that. I watched Dragon Ball Z growing up. Like, I mean, just truly a nerd all the way through. True. And I remember reading the Iliad and the Odyssey and thinking, wait a minute, there are these passages in the Bible that sound kind of similar or at least echo some of these things, but it feels like we don't talk about it. But how did the ancient Greeks, like, think of these things? Where did the, where did the connection point come from? And so for me, it was actually imagination. It was the imagination and the thought. The question, what is the author's intended meaning? And then come and behold, like that is the question for biblical theology. Like, the question for understanding the Scriptures is not what do I think about the text? What do I want to get from the text? It's like, what did God intend from the scriptures? What is the ancient worldview of the Old Testament, the ancient Near Eastern and the New Testament, the Greco Roman worldview? Like, how did they understand these things? And then how do we build a bridge of application to ourselves? So I, I attribute a lot to Professor Scheidecker. He really changed my life and really taught me how to read the Bible better, you know. And so from there, it was just a long. A long series of small steps of obed, you know, and massive missteps along the way of, of error and failure and a kind God who is a good father that just led me consistently to himself. And so here we are today. I turned 40 last year, and it's been quite a journey.

Jenny Urch (6:09)

It's interesting because, you know, they're talking about that today most high schoolers don't read any books. Like, they don't read any books from COVID to cover. They just read passages. So the fact that in ninth grade, a ninth grader, you read To Kill a Mockingbird. These are huge. These are huge books. Not only just one, but, but many books. And how that really shaped your life. Is there an easy example of a passage that someone might misinterpret because they're not reading it as the author intended?

Dr. Joel Mutamali (6:40)

It to be meant right off the bat. Let's go to Genesis 1, 2, and 3, right? So we, we suffer from what I like to call a demythologizing of the Bible. And I think this is a byproduct of like post enlightenment 21st century scientific advancement. And you know, I'll say some things in this podcast that maybe your heroes will be like, wait, is that, like, how does that work? And I unpack it all in the unseen battle. And I'm like, I believe in the resurrection. Like, I, I. So let me just do a, a question for us. Kind of like a, a rhetorical kind of question. We would all agree, I think that as Christians, the core of what we believe is that God became man in the incarnation without losing an ounce of his divinity, was born through immaculate conception, virgin birth, that Jesus lived a perfect life without sin. He went to a real Roman cross, He died on that cross, literally was put in a grave, but then defeated sin and death through death itself, after three days, rose again, hung out in post resurrection body for a period of 40 days just to chill and hang out with some people, prove the point, and then ascended literally into the right, into the heavens, into the right hand of the Father. And that is where he now rules and reigns, right? What part of that is not cosmic?

Podcast Sponsor/Host (8:01)

Right.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (8:01)

Part of that is not spirit. We'd be like, wait a minute, all of it is. And so then my question is like, if that is the core of what we believe as, as believers, then why do we try to rationalize away other parts of the Bible that are mythic, that are cosmic, that are, that are natural in nature? And this, I think, is so not to your question. What is a good example? Eden. Eden is my perfect example. Has anybody ever been like, why does Eve not freak out when the serpent starts to talk to her?

Jenny Urch (8:31)

Right?

Dr. Joel Mutamali (8:32)

Why, why isn't Eve like, hold up, before we even get to this question of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, like serpent. This is whack and wild. Why are you talking? Are you speaking? Well, because in the ancient worldview, the, the Hebrew word for serpent, nakash, it has in mind three things. It has in mind a bronze fiery image. It has in mind a cherubim, a guardian throne room being the supernatural in nature. And it has in mind a literal snake. So the question is, when Moses, who we believe wrote the first five books of the Old Testament, when he mentions the nakash, what is he getting at? And the answer to that question is yes. The answer is yes. He has in mind A fiery being. He has in mind a guardian cherub, and he has in mind a serpent like figure. And guess what? Eden is on a mountain. And in the ancient worldview, kings planted gardens on top of mountains to be the place of residence for them to hang out with their family. And so you've got a passage like Job that says the sons of God, the morning stars, were present at the beginning of creation, shouting for joy. And it's like, well, what does God create Eden? What does he do? Takes Adam and Eve and places them in his royal garden. And. And then what is placed in Eden to protect Eden after the fall to guardian cherubim? So maybe, and I think this is actually very, very important, and it connects back to spiritual warfare. Maybe the issue isn't so much that the serpent was there, but the question is actually more what does the serpent say? You see, Adam and Eve were accustomed to spiritual beings walking in and out through Eden. This is what Genesis 3 says, that Yahweh, it was routine for him to come and walk in the cool, the evening breeze with his kids, which is like a while, like back to like the outdoors thing. Think about that. God, routinely, every day on the calendar, an alarm would go off like five minutes before the cool of the evening breeze. By the way, Yahweh's on his way to take a walk with you. You know, it's like that's what he. And what were they gonna do on the. On the. In the evening breeze, in the cool to walk? I don't know about you, my. I'm not a for fun or a runner for no reason. I actually despise it. Lisa Harper has. We have a mutual good friend in Pastor Levi Lusko. And man, Levi loves to run. He's. Anytime I'm with him at an event, he's like, let's go work out together. That dude is like, you know, he's up at 5am Doing a week's worth of workouts. That. And I'm like, just trying to get a first cup of coffee, you know.

Jenny Urch (10:58)

That'S what he did for his book tour.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (11:00)

I know.

Jenny Urch (11:01)

And I was come run with him when his book came out.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (11:03)

Well, you. That's a funny story. If you go onto my Instagram and you scroll down on the main feed, there is an interview that Levi Guy did with me on a run in Charlotte, and. And I actually look like I'm about to die. Like, he is asking me deep theology questions and I'm actually suffocating. Like, I'm surprised they didn't call an ambulance. Actually, some of the people in the comments said that they, that they should have called an ambulance because it was that bad. But it's like, well, why? Okay, so God walked in the cool of the evening breeze with his kids. This is outdoor. This is. What do you do with the people that you love while you go on a walk? You talk, right? Process life. You think, like, so what does that mean for Adam and Eve? They were to grow actually in knowledge and wisdom by daily walks with God. I mean, goodness. That'll preach. How do you want to walk? How do you want to walk? How do you want to grow in knowledge and wisdom? Like, this is what I want my kids to know. Like, how do you grow in knowledge and wisdom? Here's how you grow in knowledge and wisdom. Walk daily with King Jesus. Like, go where he. This is Galatians 5. Go where he goes. Don't go where he doesn't go. Stay near him. Pay attention to his footsteps. Pay, you know, like all of that. Well, when the serpent comes in, the serpent actually doesn't present a new story. The tactic of the enemy is rarely to present us with something new, brand new. It's actually to distort truth, what is actually true. And in it, the serpent again, Adam and Eve are like, they're used to seeing spiritual beings. What they're not accustomed to is a spiritual being trying to deceive them.

Jenny Urch (12:31)

Yeah.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (12:31)

And so now Adam and Eve entertain a conversation they should have never entertained. And if I were Adam and Eve now, in hindsight, I mean, if I were Adam and Evad done the exact same thing, I'd have taken the fruit. But in hindsight, now knowing everything, I kind of wish Adam and Eve, or even Adam would have said, hey, that's a really great question. Nakash serpent. You know what? It's routine for God to come and take walk with us in the cool of the evening breeze. Why don't you hang out, hang out with us until he gets here? Let's ask him this question. What do we think that the Nakash would have done? I'll tell you. Run for its life. That's what it would have done. Right? And. And once again, so when it comes to spiritual warfare, it's like, how do we combat spiritual warfare? It's the same way that Adam and Eve were supposed to combat it with the presence of God, with the truth of his word. You know, trying to fight this battle alone is a recipe for disaster. And we see that all the way in the Eden story. But notice all of this to your simple question like, like how we miss the presence of supernatural activity. We miss the presence of something that looks right, but it's actually deceiving. We miss the idea that actually these supernatural, malevolent beings have been around since the very beginning of creation, literally, as God speaks, all of creation together. Which means they've got a lot of foresight, they've got a lot of knowledge and information. The problem is not all knowledge is good knowledge for us. And so what the enemy often wants to do is present neutral knowledge and use it in such a way that that knowledge becomes self destructive for humanity.

Jenny Urch (14:00)

I mean, that is fascinating. That's right at the beginning of the Bible. And no one ever is like, why is a serpent talking? And why, why doesn't she think that's weird? How interesting. You say in the book, the unseen battle, the most deceptive and powerful tactics of spiritual warfare present half truths as the full truth when they are nothing but a full lie from the very beginning. Spiritual warfare is a reframing and distortion of truth. You have this question in the book. If I were to ask you what spiritual warfare is, how would you respond? And I think if you grew up in church, like, you know, you learn about the breastplate of righteousness, and you know that my feet fitted with the readiness that comes, whatever, all the things are right. But, you know, I. I don't know if I would necessarily have a good answer to the question. If someone were to ask me, what is spiritual warfare, how would I respond? Could you give an answer to that? I mean, that's a pretty big and deep question. What is spiritual warfare?

Dr. Joel Mutamali (14:59)

Yeah, so I've got a dear friend of mine, Jim Kress. He's the licensed counselor that Lisa and I co host therapy and theology together. And Jim once said something to me in a podcast that we were doing together maybe a decade ago that absolutely just rocked me. He said, there are some things that are simple but not simplistic. There are some things that are simple but not simplistic. And this is one of those things that when I say it, it's going to sound incredibly simple, but it's far from simplistic. So what is spiritual warfare? I think spiritual warfare is absolutely intricately connected to the storyline of scripture. So what is the storyline of scripture? I would summarize it this way. The storyline of scripture is the story of a good dad who is absolutely determined to have his family back together. It's a story of a good dad now in that there's a lot of questions because then we go like who is this good dad? Well, he happens to be the cosmic king of heaven and earth. That's wild. And then if he's desperate, like he's determined to have his family back together, what happened to the family in the first place? Well, the family was divided, right? And then his third question. Well, who is the family? And this is a big part of my book I start, the whole first half of this is that God has always had a two family household. He's always had this conception of a supernatural family, these angelic beings, supernatural beings and a human family. And on eat in. In Eden, the Mount of Eden. That's where both families resided. This is why the Hebrew phrases for angelic beings in the Old Testament are sons of God. It uses familial language, you know, to describe these supernatural beings. And they have vocation and responsibility. And guess what? Adam and Eve are made. You and I are made in what? The likeness and image of God. What is that but familial? It says that we image our good dad. You know, and if we image our good dad, the goal is that we image that. That. That likeness in a way that is responsible and true of who our dad is. And so, like, what is spiritual warfare? A lot of times we want to think of spiritual warfare in like demon exorcism or we think about it in these power encounters or these kind of big. Now, I'm not saying that those don't exist. In fact, I believe the opposite. I actually do think that those take place. But I think part of the deception of the enemy is almost like a magician who does sleight of hand. It's like the sleight of hand is like, hey, look at all this big, crazy, chaotic stuff, right? And all the while there's something else that's happening that's actually setting up all of this. And so it's like, that's the stuff that I want us to be able to see clearly through the pages of the unseen battle. And ultimately, spiritual warfare is about a household that's divided and a king who's going to have his household reunited.

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Jenny Urch (21:16)

So one of the verses that you talk about and your whole thing is. And I think this is fantastic for families. This is about theology, where theology is lived. You say theology should be accessible, practical, and deeply personal. Learn theology does not have to be daunting or difficult. A theology that isn't livable isn't helpful. So there's this verse that says, it's a warning. Paul says, do not give the enemy a foothold in our lives. And that kind of makes me think of like a scary movie when you're like, running from the monster and then you go to slam the door and they get their foot in, you know, and you can't totally shut it.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (21:54)

Yes.

Jenny Urch (21:54)

So you say, as believers, we should take these warnings seriously. How should we do that?

Dr. Joel Mutamali (22:00)

Yeah, one is recognition. We need to. So I want to start with the imagery first, with the foothold. I don't know if you watch this.

Podcast Sponsor/Host (22:05)

I.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (22:06)

So I'm a little bit ADD scatterbrained. And so I've got like weird things that pop into my brain. But just now, as you're saying that. I was thinking about this TV show about this dude that, like, Free climbed. Have you seen any of this?

Jenny Urch (22:19)

Oh, yes. This is real recent.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (22:22)

Like, yes, a couple days ago, right? Like, yeah, yeah. So, like, I'm just thinking about that, right? It's like he has to have a foothold. But what is the purpose of the foothold? It's to advance. You don't. You don't ever get a foothold just to stay in the peripheral on the outside. A foothold is extremely strategic. It's to get a spot so that you can kind of worm your way closer, or in that scenario, to gain higher to the goal. And so when Paul's saying, hey, be real careful that you don't give the enemy a foothold, I actually think this is a biblical echo all the way back to the story of Cain and Abel in Genesis, chapter four. Like, remember, God comes down to. To Cain. It's like, hey, bro, this is my. The Joel paraphrase. It's like, hey, hey, bro. Like, be careful. Like. Like sin is crouching. It's waiting to devour you, but you have to rule over it. Like, you. And it's funny, it's interesting that God doesn't say, like, you can maybe possibly. He's like, nah, you must. You must rule over it, you know? So before Cain goes into premeditated murder of his brother, right? And all those actions take place, here's a gracious God who steps in, in the presence of spiritual warfare, I would call this spiritual warfare, in order to give him a way out. And so it's like, what is this in Cain's story? It's jealousy. It's discontentment. It's this. It's this desire for something that he didn't get the way that he wanted that created a foothold in his heart that allowed his own sinful flesh and the presence, I think, of dark powers to. To push him into an act of utter devastation and destruction. The language of the enemy is. Is crouching. Like predators crouch with incredible patience so they can pounce at the perfect time. And we have an enemy who's incredibly patient, who's. Who's just waiting.

Jenny Urch (24:13)

And.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (24:13)

And so it's like, well, what is he talking about? What does this mean? Remember I was talking about the magician and the sleight of hand? You have these big, massive things, and you have these, like, subtle things that are happening. So, like, the enemy loves using good or neutral things to make them ultimate things that always become idolatrous things. And so it's like, Food, man. Like, what is your relationship with food? It's kind of wild, you know? Like, food can actually become an idolatrous thing for you, both the consumption of it or the neglect of it. You see how that works in extremes. The gym, what's your. What's your relationship with the gym? Like, you're trying to work out. You're trying to be healthy. Well, being healthy is a good goal. Like, our bodies are a temple of the Lord. Right. But when does it turn into obsession where you don't ever look good enough? You're always competing with somebody else. Right. And then it's stuff like alcohol. It's stuff like Netflix, like binging. We were talking about kids going outside, and we're talking about some of that stuff earlier offline, I believe. And one of the things I think is so fascinating is one of the first things that happened with Instagram. I remember when Instagram first came out, and when you got to the end of your feed, it said, congratulations, you got to the end of your feed. You remember that?

Jenny Urch (25:25)

No, I. I didn't get on it at the beginning because I'm older.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (25:27)

I was on it. I was on the very beginning.

Jenny Urch (25:29)

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (25:30)

And there was this thing at the very end. You'd scroll, and you'd reach the end, and it'd be like. Like, you've caught up. You know, the first thing to leave that you've caught up, it is now an endless scroll.

Jenny Urch (25:40)

Yep.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (25:41)

You know, this is the tactic of the enemy. This is a foothold that the enemy wants to leverage and exploit in order to consistently and slowly distract us from, like, the sufficiency, the presence, and the provision that only God can actually give us, that our souls are longing for the church. Father Augustine once kind of famously said, you know, our hearts are restless until they find their rest in God. And we are a restless people. Which, back to your podcast and kind of what you're doing with getting kids outside. Like, we're literally, as we're talking, we just had, like, that snow apocalypse, ice apocalypse. Like, we live in Charlotte. And so it wasn't nearly as bad. I've got a lot of friends in Nashville that are just been devastated by this. So in Charlotte, we never get snow. We never, like, you know, and so we got, like, an inch and a half of snow. The coolest thing happened yesterday. Like, when the snow hit, all the kids woke up. Like, our entire neighborhood looked like a winter wonderland. There are sleds, there's dads pulling. Like, you know, there's no slope. So what do you do, you pull your kid, like, and you just see, like, kids out there. Like, my daughter came in dead. It's a snow day. Like, I mean, just absolutely ecstatic. I'm like, man, there's something beautiful about walking into God's creation and being reminded, and this is so important. It's part of spiritual warfare, being reminded of the creator creation distinction, that there is a Creator who's the uncreated creator of all things. And you and I are created beings. We are finite and limited. He is infinite and unlimited. And when we walk into his creation, we recognize our limitations. We recognize our. Our finite reality. Right? Even the exhilaration of my son on a sled going all the way down. He came in, he's like, dad, I almost wiped out hurt so bad. And I'm like, yeah, exactly. That's actually a good thing. You know, that you have that recognition. So I. I just. Part of the big, big focus of the unseen battle. It's. It's deep theology. It's a lot of footnotes. I hope you read my footnotes. It matters to me, you know, and yet there are these moments that I want to keep bringing back. Like the enemy wants to work in. In places that are so often overlooked. And the Lord has a way out for us. And the same that he said to Cain, he's like, hey, bro, like. Like, don't be downcast. There's a way out of this, you know, and that's what I hope the unseen battle will provide for people.

Jenny Urch (28:13)

Yeah, the whole language is really interesting because when you talk about that guy that was climbing, you know, people do this, you know, they free climb.

Podcast Sponsor/Host (28:20)

It's.

Jenny Urch (28:20)

That's what it's called, right? Solo climbing. Free climbing.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (28:22)

Solo climbing or free climbing. Terrifying.

Jenny Urch (28:24)

They're not attached to anything. So it is slow. You have to make sure that your foothold is secure, whether you're doing it on a building or on a mountainside. And the same with the crouching. So this is like a slow encroachment, or if someone gets their foot in your door, it's just.

Podcast Sponsor/Host (28:39)

Just a little bit.

Jenny Urch (28:41)

So you say we have to take these warnings seriously. One of the things that you talked about in this book, the unseen battle, which I had never considered, you know, as a kid, if you grew up in church, you learn about the armor of God. So the breastplate in righteousness in place, you know, your feet fitted. I think I already said it. Like, the belt of truth buckled around your waist and the breastplate of righteousness in place, and your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace or whatever the words are. But I never really considered that the language then after that just says stand, stand firm then. Or maybe it's before, wherever it comes in, but it doesn't. There's no, like, offensive. Offensive, like when you're, you know, or defensive either. It's just like you just stand there.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (29:24)

Yeah.

Jenny Urch (29:24)

And you talk about that in this book. And I thought that was a really. A good thing. A good thing to teach kids.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (29:30)

Yeah.

Jenny Urch (29:30)

Because I was never taught that part. I was only taught about the armor of God. So can you talk about how that relates to daily living?

Dr. Joel Mutamali (29:37)

Yeah. So, you know, one of the things, again, this might sound confusing or just maybe new for some folks is my view, and this is. I think that passage points this out theologically and exegetically, is that you and I are not called to pursue demon encounters. It's not like we're, like, supposed to put on our. Our cape as demon exorcists and like, walk out there and like, search them out and try to find them. And, you know, and now it's nuanced. Is there room for deliverance ministry? Is there room for that? Absolutely, there's room for it. I think what I'm trying to say, though, is that that's not the normative call of all believers. Right. Like, that's not the thing that we're just. And when Paul is talking about that, he's. He's recognizing that we have a real enemy who will attack us in various ways. And then we have a good God who has equipped us with armor. And often, you know, when scholars talk about this, they point to the Greco Roman armor. I actually think that that's. That is a area to root it in. But I think a deeper area is actually in Isaiah where. Where God is the one who puts on his armor, his blessed breastplate of righteousness, you know, all of this stuff in order to deal with the unrighteousness of the world, you know, which is kind of a W to think. So this is not some arbitrary armor that we're putting on. God has actually given us his armor, his own personal armor for us to fight, you know, for us to. To defend ourselves in this battle. And so that language of stand is the language of, like, we don't give ground. We stand in the conference of who Christ is. And when the enemy attacks, those fiery darts come at us. We're equipped and we're prepared in order to. To survive through that onslaught. Now, now we are given a command to go Though we are given warfare kind of militaristic imperatives. What is that? It's the advancement of the gospel. It's advancement of the gospel. It, this is Jesus's great commission. Go and make disciples of all nations baptized in the name of the Father, Son. It's like, oh, so as believers, this where all of us are supposed to do, we're supposed to go out and make disciples. Like, and by the way, it's like our kids, like, duh, like we should be making disciples of our kids. Like, like encouraging them the imagination of a good God and how they've, how God has wired them uniquely to be who they are. Like, this is warfare. This is spiritual warfare. We are, we're discipling our kids. So that is the, the commission to all believers in all times, in all spaces, go and make disciples. And guess what? There's a real enemy. There's a real enemy who hates us. I just want to say that to you guys, like, there's an actual enemy who hates you. And the most deceptive thing about this enemy is that he presents things to you that makes it seem like he actually loves you, that he actually cares about your well being, you know, and this is like the perfect con artist. It's the perfect con game. And so here you and I are living out the gospel mission, and whenever light moves into darkness, the darkness is going to wither and fall back, but also fight on its way out. Right. And so it's like here we are advancing the gospel, moving into dark places, discipling, sharing the good news of the gospel. And then you have an enemy who's attacking us. And I think what Paul's saying is in that moment, stand, stand firm. You know, like, like you are prepared for the onslaught because you're actively advancing the kingdom of God through gospel proclamation. And when the enemy fights back, you stand in coffins. Don't give ground, don't withdraw, stand.

Jenny Urch (33:10)

Yeah, it's good. We stand in the power of Christ. We are the passive recipients. You write of divine action.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (33:17)

Yeah.

Jenny Urch (33:17)

And as we receive the power of the Spirit, we are called to put on the armor of God. It's really helpful and it's, it's really life applicable. That's what you talk about, theology. That's meant to be lived.

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Jenny Urch (33:50)

I told them what we like, what.

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Jenny Urch (35:56)

So then you do talk toward the end of the book, because it's called the Unseen Battle. And to be honest, I mean, I. I think these are things that are not talked about all that much. Lee Strobel came out with a book last year about seeing the supernatural.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (36:09)

Yep.

Jenny Urch (36:10)

And he talked about how, you know, like, angels are mentioned in the Bible hundreds of times or something like that. But he's like, I've never actually heard a sermon on angels. So when you walk down the path and you're reading about things in the book like demons and fallen angels, you bring up anxiety, which I think is an important thing to bring up, because you could read it and start to feel really anxious about these things. You say, but giving into anxiety would be a tragic mistake. We could come to the end of the book and be tempted to feel anxious and concerned about this unseen battle. Yes, yes, there is spiritual warfare taking place around us all the time, every day. However, giving into anxiety would be a tragic mistake. How do we learn about these things and not give in to anxiety?

Dr. Joel Mutamali (36:55)

I think it's posture and perspective is so vitally important for you and I. Posture and perspective. So what is our posture? Our posture is a posture of humble confidence. Humble confidence. And I use those two words very intentionally. It is not a confidence that is rooted in me, myself and I. It is a confidence that is rooted in Christ. And the more I think about Jesus and the more I talk about him, often I just say, like, the cosmic Christ. This is the whole point of Ephesians. This is the whole point of Colossians. It's like Jesus is the intersection between heaven and earth. This is why the Incarnation is so miraculous in itself. Like every. And I get into this in the Unseen Battle, like every mythic story, the Greeks and the Romans and the ancient Near Eastern Hittites and Mesopotamians and. And the Viking Norse, all of these. Right. It's a story of humanity trying to become and achieve godlike status. That's the goal. And it's a. It's a defeating, like, disastrous story.

Jenny Urch (37:59)

Wow. And isn't that happening today, Joel?

Dr. Joel Mutamali (38:03)

And isn't that happening today?

Jenny Urch (38:04)

Yeah, it's happening with the AI.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (38:06)

Yeah, that is the goal.

Podcast Sponsor/Host (38:08)

That's what Dr. Nicholas Cardera says that.

Jenny Urch (38:10)

The ones at the very, very top want to live forever in a combined human, digital form.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (38:17)

Exactly. Inside of fear. And it's not right. But then look at the story of scripture. The story of scripture is the story of God that saw fit to become. To take on humanity, to build the latter Thing about Jacob's Ladder, it's like to build this ladder, what is the ladder? The ladder is the cross. So, okay, our posture is humble confidence. Right. So it's this confidence not rooted in ourselves, it's rooted in the cosmic king of heaven and earth, Jesus himself. But then it's perspective. What is our perspective? You and I view this conversation from the perspective of the finished work of the cross. From the finished work of the cross. So when we're standing at the place of the Christ's ultimate victory, it's like, oh man, that leaves us with even more confidence. That leaves us with perspective. That helps us see that yes, there's a real battle, but that battle is on the back end of ultimate defeat, you know, and so we don't need to achieve and strive in order to win. We just actually are riding the wave of Christ's victory that took place on the cross.

Jenny Urch (39:23)

Okay, so there we go. I mean, you don't have to be anxious about it. And the book will teach you all about those things, the unseen battle. If you, if you want to. You know, like some books you read that are faith based books, you know, they're lighter. I don't really know how to describe it. Yeah, yours is like real deep in terms, you know, in terms. I mean, the other ones are deep too. I'm not trying to like belittle anyone else's faith based book, but like yours is tackling things that maybe the reader has never considered before.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (39:55)

Yeah.

Jenny Urch (39:55)

So this, I'm going to give an example. And this is all through the book. It's called the Unseen Battle. But you're talking about, and it's right in the subtitle, the three rebellions. And then you go into the three temptations of Christ and then you explain how those temptations are the tactics of spiritual warfare, which I think is super helpful. So, I mean, I never heard of this. Joel, the three, the three rebellions. Genesis 3, Genesis 6, Genesis 11 is the third rebellion. Then you have the three temptations of Christ. Can you talk about, like, I'm like, well, I grew up reading the Bible. You know, I grew up in church since I was a really little. Like, since I was a baby. I'm like, I've never even heard of the three rebellions. What sparks your interest? Like where, like where does that come from?

Dr. Joel Mutamali (40:39)

Ah, I, Part of where it comes from is just I think I'm a skeptic and I'm, and I'm curious and I'm unsatisfied with kind of like surface level Answers, you know, and so there's a curiosity about it that can get me in trouble for sure. But oftentimes when it comes to the Bible, it's actually helped me a lot. And in fact this one wasn't even my own curiosity. It was actually my doctoral advisor, the late great Dr. Michael Heiser. The Mike wrote a book called the Unseen Realm. And so this book, the Unseen Battle, is really the book that I always wanted to co author with Mike, that we had talked about. He was my second reader for my dissertation. And so we'd kind of had this plan, like, hey, you know, once we get done. He had. Was diagnosed with stage 4 pancreatic cancer as I was finishing up my dissertation. And so it's like, hey, as you're able to, you know, like fight this thing, get to a good spot, like, let's think about, you know, doing this co authored book. Well, tragically ended up passing just a couple years after. Um, I defended my dissertation. And so this book was dedicated to him. So you'll see in the opening page, it's dedicated to Mike. Um, and then also it. Mike, I remember we're. We worked together at a Bible software company called Logos Bible Software years and years ago. And I remember talking to Mike, walking into his office and he said something to me that I just never thought about. He goes, hey Joel, have you thought about the three rebellions? It's like, what, what are the three rebellions? No, I'm like, he's like like. And he like unpacked it for me. He's like, you know, Christians today, when you think about like, why is there so much evil in the world? Mike said, like most Christians and I said this, it's like, well, Genesis 3. Genesis 3 is why there's so much evil. And Mike was like, yeah, you know, the ancient Israelites, especially in the second Temple period, they would have had a little bit more of a robust answer for us. I'm like, mike, tell me more. He's like, you know, they would talk about Genesis 3, but then they would be like, don't forget Genesis 6. Like, what's Genesis 6? This wild story about the sons of God and the daughters of man that produce these things called the Nephilim. Who are these giants? And, and then right after Genesis 6:1:4 is the story of the flood, right? Which is wild to me that in vacation Bible school we always talk about the flood. Ain't nobody Talking about Genesis 6:1:4, the events that, that literally preceded the flood. Like, why does the flood take place? Genesis 6:1:4 Evil spread through the world. The sons of God, the daughters of man, and these Nephilim. I'm like, oh, that act, Mike, that actually makes a lot of sense. And then the last One was Genesis 11, the tower, the story of the Tower of Babel. When it talks about, you know, the, the dispersement of the, of the nations. And then he's like, have you ever thought about Deuteronomy 32, 8 and 9? I'm like, no, Mike, I don't think about these things. I'm thinking about fantasy football right now, you know. And he's like, read, go open your Bible and read Deuteronomy 32, 8 and 9. I had an ESV Bible at the time. And so I opened it up and said, talks about, you know, when, when God disinherited the, the, the nations and allotted them to the sons of God. And I'm like, wait a minute. That sounds like that's like the after story of the Tower of Babel. He goes, exactly. I was like, wait a minute. And so it's like, where do we get the gods of the nations of the Old Testament? Why is there so much chaos in the Old Testament? What is this whole thing about Genesis 12 and the reclaiming of the nations and Abraham being the one who's going to, to be a blessing to all the nations? Abrahamic Covenant of Genesis 12, 15, 17 and 22. Why is it so important the Abraham is called out of Urb. The Chaldeans? Oh, I don't know. Maybe because it's roughly the, the vicinity of Babel, the epicenter of rebellion. Wait a minute. Mind blow. Like, how did I not make all of these connections? And you know, Acts chapter 2, the Reversal of Babel, Ephesians 2, 1822, the Reunion of the household. And, and it really is all contingent. It really builds out of these three rebellions. And in each of these rebellions, you will notice that it is never isolated to just an earthly experience. It's never isolated, just a spiritual experience. This is where heaven and earth mean. What happens in one impacts the other. And you see that happening all throughout these three rebellions.

Jenny Urch (44:48)

Okay, so that, that is going to give listeners a really good, a little window into what this book is like, because it is like that. And you're like, oh my gosh, I've never heard about this and I've never read about that. And then you go into the three temptations of Christ.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (45:03)

Yep.

Jenny Urch (45:03)

And how in all these temptations we see the tactics of spiritual warfare and then how Jesus responds. There is always the visible battle over the temptations being offered. But there's also the unseen battle waging within our hearts. Each temptation asks about the ultimate object of our affection. So this is. This is, like, what you offer. And so can you tell the listeners what they would find at the Stranger Theology substack and podcast?

Dr. Joel Mutamali (45:30)

Yeah. So, I mean, probably what's going to happen is you'll read through the unseen battle and you'll be like, wait a minute. I think that there's more to the story than I've been told. It kind of feels like I'm an 80s 90s kid, you know, so remember Transformers? Like the. Like, there's more than meets the eye, that kind of thing. And I think that's kind of what's going to happen. It's. It's been my journey. And none of this discounts the story that we've been told. And I think it just moves into 4K, like, high definition, you know? And now you're reading through your Bible, like, wait a minute. Like, I want to learn. And so the Stranger Theology Substack is a project that is a collaborative effort between myself and my friends. They run a podcast called the Blurry, Blurry Creatures Podcast. And it's all about, like, paranormal, supernatural, and they talk about a lot of, like, kind of wild stuff, Bigfoot and. And portals and all this stuff. But they're believers. They, like, love Jesus. And they've had me multiple times to talk about, like, a biblical theology. And we kind of thought, wouldn't it be awesome to have a place that is theologically orthodox? Like, it's evangelical theological, but it gives some perspective to consider, like, where are all these stories coming from? Does the Bible have an answer for this? And my view is, and throughout the unseen Bible, that the Bible has the most coherent answer for questions of Bigfoot to aliens to like. Like, actually the Bible has the language for all of this stuff. And so I actually think it's going to be super helpful. So the Stranger Theology substack is essays that I've brought in some amazing scholars in the field that you get three to four essays a month. And then right now we're working through what's called the Cosmic Mountain series. It's a premium podcast. It's going to feel it's more than a podcast, but it's more accessible than seminary, and it's all theology. Right. And so I think it's gonna be super fun. And so I'd love for people to check it out. You can check it out@strangertheology.com. and they'll give you all the answers.

Jenny Urch (47:22)

Questions, responses, connect this to imagination. Because we're in a day and age where we're really handing our imagination over to machines. And this has been going on for a long time. You know, it's like you. You play a video game without somebody else's imagination. You watch a Disney movie, that's someone else's imagination. Kids are not playing as much as they used to. So obviously you're very curious. You're a curious person. And it is interesting that the study of Scripture itself could lend itself to the increase, especially for children and for adults.

Podcast Sponsor/Host (47:58)

Right.

Jenny Urch (47:58)

I mean, actually, it's kind of like this downward slope where you just don't even spend any time considering and thinking through. So the study of the Bible can enhance your imagination and creativity.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (48:09)

Yeah. I have a good friend of mine. We work together at Proverbs. Her name is Leah. Her and her husband, Paul. Leon. Paul, have. Have a son. And one day she sent me this video of her son. And. And they're like, doing bedtime story, and it's like this, like, animated story of Egypt, you know, and it's the. And it's the. Each of the 10 plagues. And this kid is. I. I mean, I'm planning on handing over everything to this kid. Like, this kid is a genius theologic. He's like, little. Like, I. Leah's gonna be mad at me. I don't know his age. He's like four or something. Like, you know, like, young. And. And she gets to. Her and Paul get to the angel of Death, you know, and it's an animated thing. So it's like, designed for kids, but he's still probably a little too little for the angel of Death. And she's kind of like. And this is like a ghost. And she, like, flips the page age. This kid is too smart. He's like, no, what's going on there, Mama? Like, like, wants to go, you know? And I'm like, good job, Leah and Paul, because you are introducing your child to the beauty of imagination to wrestle with something that our brains are trying to figure out. And this is like, part of shepherding and stewardship as parents is recognizing your child's individual capacity and maturity in order to engage in that conversation. But don't punt, man. Don't. Don't punt on the conversation. Like, assess it and. And begin to allow imagination to grow and use ways to make it relatable. And as your child grows, this is a conversation that you don't have that stops it's a conversation that grows like a snowball. And so I just really think that the Bible, if we read it honestly from Genesis all the way through Revelation, your kids are going to come across things that spark their imagination. Because the way our modern mind works to rationalize these things, the beauty of the child's mind is unsatisfied with rationalization. And this is the thing, theology should always be done in the context of community. Please don't undermine or over look how much you can learn from your kids, from their understanding of scripture, from their imagination, from their way of storytelling. And so oftentimes it's like we are thinking that we're doing the teaching, but I have found that I'm often the one doing the learning as my kids just kind of present honest questions to me and we wrestle with it, you know, like, I don't know. But let's, let's look at some commentary. Like, I've got teenage boys right now, so, like, let's, let's look at some commentaries. Let's see what Mike wrote in the unseen realm. Let's, let's search this stuff out, you know, and I think that's really important. So, yeah, engage. The greatest story ever told is the story of scripture. And every other story that we have in this world is some copy and paste of that story. Like you'll just find, you'll find embedded in everything this story. So let your kids truly know the true story. Like you can know counterfeit by knowing the true thing. And the enemy is trying to present us with all kinds of counterfeit information out there. Right? So how do you, how do you battle against the counterfeit? It. You just obsess over what is true, so you can be aware of the, of the deceit and the deception of the enemy. So I would say, like, yeah, imagination is so important, especially for your kids. The Bible gives you the opportunity to explore that. But it's going to require honesty and humility from us to allow ourselves to be in that uncomfortable position of how do I explain the angel of, of death to a kid?

Jenny Urch (51:49)

Like, sure. And you cover a lot of these. If you pop over to your YouTube, a lot of the big questions that people ask. Let me ask you one I punted on. Okay, so I've got a. One of our kids. She's, she's a little clingier than the other. They've all been actually really clingy. But this one was like extra clingy. And so she was really young and she said, mommy, if I die before you will you already be there in heaven waiting for me. I punted.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (52:16)

Mm.

Jenny Urch (52:17)

Because I, you know, based off of Lee Strobel's book, you know, when he talks about these. And I read another woman's book who's a hospice nurse, and she said, you know, there's a lot of consistencies in the way that when people's lives end, especially if they're not, like, really hooked up to a ton of machines and things, like, they'll. They'll have these experiences. Well, they'll, you know, they'll see their loved ones. It's almost like their loved ones will walk them home.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (52:41)

Yeah.

Jenny Urch (52:41)

But it's. But it's always ones who have already passed, so. Like grandparents or things like that.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (52:47)

Yeah. So I do have an A response to this. I don't know that I have an answer. I have a response to this, and I actually would root it in a couple places. One is Hebrews, where it talks about the great cloud of witnesses. And there's a sense that the author of Hebrews gives us. That's like, hey, there's this great cloud of witnesses. And they're cheering you on. They're encouraging you. And then you have the story in Matthew about. It's the story of Abraham and Lazarus, like Abraham's bosom that hold that whole thing that's happening there. And you get the sense in the afterlife that there's activity that's taking place, there's knowledge, there's just, you know, agency that's happening there. Then you have the story of Eden. So, like, I'm kind of giving us, like, these three parts, right? You've got Hebrews that talks about the great cloud of witnesses. You've got this story, parable in Matthew about Lazarus and Abraham and this whole thing that's happening there between Sheol and the underworld. And then you have Eden, and you have Eden that leaves and shall Genesis 3 as a garden, but in Revelation, it returns as a garden city. And then you have Jesus, who says, I leave to prepare a place for you. And he. Jesus says, I'm going to paradise. Well, paradise, that the word paradiso can also mean garden. Wait, what is going on? How do you have a garden that leaves? That now is a garden city? Unless you have work and vocation and development and growth that is taking place.

Podcast Sponsor/Host (54:05)

Place.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (54:05)

And what does it mean that you have a great cloud of witnesses? And where are these witnesses and what are they doing? Right. And so I would say, and then you have these experiences that actually, Lee and I were at an event together that we spoke at together, and his book had just come out. And I remember him sharing about this, like, kind of these experiences with these hospice nurses. And I'm like, of course. Like, it makes complete sense. You know, even just from like the physical, like, kind of almost like they come up and they raise their hands and there's like this. Just this moment of. Of transition that's taking place. Which, by the way, in the Stranger theology substack, there's an article by a gall named Leslie Garcia who wrote on martyrdom in the early church and how she made this incredible statement where she's like a patristic scholar, and she was like, hey, in the first century church, martyrdom was seen as this time where it was an overlapping of the realms. And a lot of the martyrs kind of had this exact same. Same experience, right? So you're seeing patterned behavior that's happening. And so I would just say, like, to your daughter, I'd be like, the specifics. I was like, baby, I don't know. I don't know that it'll. It'll be me. But what I can assure you of is that you won't be alone. And then there will be family there, loved ones there, and more than anything, there will be Jesus there, you know, and so, like, depending on the age of your child, you know, then you can go into like. Like, if, like my teenage kids, like, I'd be like, guys, you know, One of the things that we don't understand well is the idea of time. We have a God who lives outside of time. So is it a possibility that it's almost like you've got these, like, Marvel timeline universes that are all happening in different timelines, but they're all converging into one spot. And so at the end of our timeline, there might be a convergence spot that happens. Like, that's a plausibility. Or there might be a plausibility that it's one timeline. And once again, this is so unique and interesting. Not unique. It's so interesting because it recalls the Old Testament stories of how Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, they're all very concerned about where their bodies are laid to rest. They're very concerned about being in the tomb of their ancestors. Right? And so it's like, is it possible that we have grandparents and loved ones that on this side of attorney, maybe we never even met? I think of my wife.

Podcast Sponsor/Host (56:20)

Wife.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (56:20)

Her grandmother she was very close to. Janice passed away. Grandma. Janice passed away before we were even married. Like a year before we got married. And my kids have never Met their great Grandma Janice. Is it possible the Grandma Janice is there? And because you're now in the new heavens and the new earth, it's almost like a kindness and a grace of the Lord that fills our like, brain. Like in the new heavens of like, oh, that's Grandma Janice. It's like we get all the feelings and all the memories and all the things of our, of our mom or of our dad. And it's like, like we meet this person for the first time. But it's like I've always known. It's like the Chronicles of Narnia when they meet Aslan, like, I feel like I've known you my whole life. It's like, of course, of course. You've just. In a different way, in a different experience. So that's kind of like the way I would want to be in conversation about a question like that. It's like, hey, we've got these anchor points throughout scripture that might not tell us A plus B equals C, but it starts to paint a picture of a possibility. And, and where we're led to is a place of hope, not anxiety. A place of like, fear, assurance, not fear.

Jenny Urch (57:24)

Yeah, it was interesting because he said in his book that, you know, when there are children who tragically pass away when they're young, maybe have something chronic, so they, you know, have a sense that it's coming, it's not an accident or something. Like he says that they have a lot of peace and that it's remarkable because, you know, a small child, a toddler two year old, a three year old, a four year old, often they don't even want to go to preschool because they don't want to be away from their parents. And yet they have this piece and can often they can like reassure their parents that they're going to be okay. And so there's just a lot, it's a lot to think about. Like the imagination piece, the creativity piece, and the Diving Deep piece that the Bible has so much for you, you to. It's accessible, it's practical and deeply personal, like you said. And just this endless resource of things that you can study and be curious about and expand your mind about. So the book is fantastic. It is called the Unseen Battle, Spiritual Warfare, the Three Rebellions, Christ Victory and Christ Victory Over Dark Powers. It is out today. Then people can check out all of your other stuff. You cover questions like how old will I be in heaven? Like, that's a question everybody has. So people can go to your. I'll, I'll make sure I'll put the links in. But you cover all these, you know, a lot of things and a lot of questions that kids ask. So it's just so many wonderful resources, Joel. So I appreciate your time. Love the book. We always end our show with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (58:54)

Oh, a favorite from my childhood outside is my cousins and I used to ride our bikes outside and we, for us is like going a block. Felt like we went to a different world, you know, and there was this thing where we would always push the boundary a little bit. And it was. I remember the feeling of being terrified going to that next street, you know, like, it felt like we had, but it was just something so special that my cousins and I shared that we just rode together and we laughed together and we experienced, like, risk almost in a way that was like, like, yeah. And so that. Man, I miss those days. I miss those days of just riding bikes.

Jenny Urch (59:31)

Yeah.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (59:31)

Not e bikes like old school bikes. Like, yeah, pedal, pedal it.

Jenny Urch (59:36)

I love it. Joel, huge congrats on your new book. Thanks so much for being here.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (59:39)

Appreciate you.

LifeLock Advertiser (59:42)

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UPS Store Advertiser (60:13)

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