1KHO 706: Held Hostage By the Food Industry | Dr. Robert Lustig, Metabolical

Summary

Podcast Summary: The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast

Episode: "1KHO 706: Held Hostage By the Food Industry"

Guest: Dr. Robert Lustig, pediatric endocrinologist and author of Metabolical
Host: Ginny Yurich
Date: February 10, 2026

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Overview

This episode explores how the modern food industry, particularly the proliferation of ultra-processed foods, is fundamentally compromising human health, especially in children. Dr. Robert Lustig, renowned for his work in nutritional science and advocacy for real food, breaks down the biochemistry behind chronic disease, the failures of the pharmaceutical and medical industries, and the powerful, coordinated role of the food industry. The conversation centers on moving beyond symptom-based, drug-driven medicine toward real, preventive solutions rooted in the food we eat.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Dr. Lustig’s Background and Motivation

• Dr. Lustig describes his journey from growing up on TV dinners to becoming a leading advocate for nutrition and health.
• His initial goal was simply to be a pediatrician; his advocacy emerged from confronting the data, especially around childhood obesity.
• He shares an early realization working with hypothalamic obesity patients (children whose brain injuries caused uncontrollable weight gain), showing that “obesity is not behavioral, it’s biochemical.” ([03:15])

Quote:

"I did not come out thinking I was going to be a firebrand or a public health advocate. ... The data brung me, okay? The science brought me here." – Dr. Lustig ([02:13])

The Biochemistry of Chronic Disease

• Chronic diseases are not “druggable”—drugs only address symptoms, not root causes.
• Dr. Lustig introduces the “eight subcellular pathologies” that underlie chronic diseases:
  1. Glycation
  2. Oxidative stress
  3. Mitochondrial dysfunction
  4. Insulin resistance
  5. Membrane integrity loss
  6. Inflammation
  7. Methylation issues
  8. Impaired autophagy
• Analogy: Our bodies are like "cherry red Corvettes"—without proper maintenance (real food), we devolve into "jalopies."
• All eight pathologies are driven by problem foods, especially ultra-processed foods.

Quote:

"If you fix the food, you fix the pathologies. That's why they're all foodable. ... What kind of food? Real food. Real food gets to the mitochondria." – Dr. Lustig ([09:04])

Ultra-Processed Foods: Fuel for Disease

• 62% of food sold in America is ultra-processed; for kids, it’s 67%.
• Ultra-processed food, especially sugar and fructose, actively inhibits healthy mitochondrial function, thereby driving the eight pathologies.
• Fructose is especially problematic; he labels it a “dose-dependent mitochondrial toxin.”
• Medications do not reach mitochondria; only food can restore proper function.

Quote:

"Ultra-processed food actually inhibits mitochondrial function, causes the mitochondria to not work well. ... You are on your way to jalopy." – Dr. Lustig ([09:04])

Medicine’s Failure and Systemic Barriers

• 80% of medical education is funded by the pharmaceutical industry, resulting in neglect of nutrition in medical curricula.
• Dr. Lustig describes the system as a “racket,” where prescribing drugs is incentivized over addressing root causes.

Quote:

"Seeing a doctor is actually the cause of these chronic diseases. ... They do not want you to know this because if you knew this, they wouldn’t sell as many drugs." – Dr. Lustig ([19:20])

• Doctors who defy industry norms face institutional scrutiny and risk their careers.

Food Industry Manipulation & Government Complicity

• The processed food industry’s business model profits from keeping populations sick.

• Ultra-processed food is often confused for real food due to aggressive industry marketing.

• Historical context: Big Sugar taught Big Tobacco how to suppress negative publicity.

  • "It started in 1943... There were executives from the sugar industry who actually went to the tobacco industry and said, here's how you deal with this problem." ([26:40])

• The myth of "calories in, calories out" is perpetuated to shield the industry from accountability.

• Artificial sweeteners induce insulin release and contribute to “leaky gut” and inflammation, despite having zero calories. ([29:17])

The School System: A Food Franchise Hostage

• Public schools have become the largest "food franchise" operation, outpacing even the biggest fast-food chains.
• School cafeterias are forced, by law, to break even, leading to the proliferation of cheap, storable, ultra-processed foods—at the cost of children's health ([32:32]).

Quote:

"There are more public schools than there are fast food restaurants in America. And what are they providing? Ultra processed food. That's because that's what's cheap and storable. ... Our kids are suffering because of it." – Dr. Lustig ([32:39])

• He describes the 1971 policy change (Resolution 242) that embedded this model and made districts reliant on industry giants.

Health Impacts in Children (and from Conception)

• Metabolic syndrome and its sequelae (obesity, diabetes, fatty liver disease) are now common in children, even showing up in utero.
• Processed foods and environmental toxins can cross the placenta and breastmilk, affecting fetal development.
• Standard breakfasts in schools can far exceed recommended sugar intakes for the whole day by a factor of three or four ([45:17]).
• Consequences extend beyond physical health to cognitive development, jaw growth, sleep, and even future depression and impulsivity.

Quote:

"Babies born with fatty liver, they're also born with obesity. ... Because baby is exposed to all sorts of things that drive adiposity. ... Food is, you know, the biggest obesogen and fructose is the biggest of the biggest." – Dr. Lustig ([44:08])

Real Food – The Path to Reversing Damage

• Switching to real food can rapidly improve health, even in adults who feel “too far gone.”
• Studies show significant metabolic health improvements after just 10 days of lower sugar meals ([52:04]).
• Real food is good for the wallet, planet, and mind; the solution is available to all.

Notable Mantras and Tools

• Mantra: “Protect the liver, feed the gut, support the brain.” ([31:30], [53:47])
• The microbiome is essential for health; ultra-processed food starves it.
• Fiber is a key missing ingredient—Dr. Lustig is involved in the development of a proprietary fiber supplement (“Monch Munch”) designed to mitigate ultra-processed food’s harms.

Solutions and Dr. Lustig’s Initiatives

• Eat Real (eatreal.org): A nonprofit helping school districts transition to real food; now serving 1 million students in 20 states ([38:27]).
• Monch Munch (Bio Lumen): A fiber supplement engineered to restore gut health and help process sugar safely.
• Snap Recall: An early diagnosis and prevention initiative for Alzheimer’s, focused on pre-symptomatic detection and food-based mitigation.
• Perfect: A tool to help grocery shoppers filter out harmful foods.

Quote:

"The only way to fix this is by fixing the food. There are no other options." – Dr. Lustig ([52:13])

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

On the root cause of chronic disease:

"The goal is to eat stuff that goes to mitochondria, makes your mitochondria work better, not worse." – Dr. Lustig ([25:08])

On the false comfort of calorie-counting and “zero-calorie” foods:

"Calories are the industry shield. It's how they hide from culpability." – Dr. Lustig ([31:29])

On the school lunch crisis:

"As soon as you get rid of the food preparation facilities, now you're hostage to the food industry for the rest of your life. You have no choice." – Dr. Lustig ([35:30])

On processed food and public policy:

"It's all going back to money. Always. It always goes back to money." – Dr. Lustig ([34:09])

On hopefulness for change:

"Absolutely. You know, everyone thinks, well, I'm too far gone. That's absolutely not true. You can reverse this." – Dr. Lustig ([52:04])

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Key Timestamps

• Dr. Lustig's background and motivation: [02:13]–[06:58]
• The eight cellular pathologies & mitochondria: [09:04]–[14:03]
• Medicine, Big Pharma, and systemic barriers: [18:42]–[21:32]
• Ultra-processed foods, school meals, and industry capture: [22:48], [32:32]–[36:05]
• Eat Real initiative: [38:27]
• In utero effects, early childhood exposure: [41:34]–[46:25]
• Mental health, depression, and food: [48:11]–[51:18]
• Rapid improvements with dietary change: [52:04]
• Solutions: fiber, Monch Munch, and other ventures: [53:47]–[58:44]

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Conclusion and Final Takeaways

Dr. Lustig’s message is clear: the root of America’s chronic disease epidemic is not in our genetics, willpower, or even lack of knowledge, but rather in a food industry and medical system structurally incentivized to prioritize profit over health.

• Ultra-processed food, especially high in sugar and lacking fiber, drives metabolic illness from conception onward.
• The answer is strikingly simple: return to real food.
• Rapid improvements are possible, and practical solutions are being developed, from school lunch reforms to innovative fiber supplements.

Call to Action:
Fixing the food supply is both a personal and collective challenge. Change is possible and hopeful—"real food works, every single time."

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For further information:

• Metabolical, The Hacking of the American Mind, and Fat Chance by Dr. Robert Lustig
• Eat Real
• Monch Munch (Bio Lumen)
• Perfect
• [Snap Recall] (Alzheimer’s early diagnosis/prevention, company details from episode)

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Memorable Closing Exchange:

Host: “Are you just so impressed with yourself?” ([59:01])
Dr. Lustig: “No, because I haven't fixed any problems yet. ... I'm working on it, but until I see changes, I'm not declaring victory.” ([59:03])

Transcript

[Narrator/Poet]

Oh, it's a beautiful world Ain't nothing on screen that's ever gonna be this view.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

Oh.

[Narrator/Poet]

It'S a beautiful world and I just want to share with I just want to share with you this beautiful world Such a beautiful.

[Jenny Herich]

Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Herich.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside.

[Jenny Herich]

And I possibly have never been more excited to have a podcast guest today. Dr. Robert Lustig.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Welcome.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

Thank you for having me, Jenny. I'm very pleased to be here.

[Jenny Herich]

I read your book Fat chance back in 2015 and then have most recently read Metabolical and the Hacking of the American Mind, which metabolic I learned about in a book by Vani Hari called Food Lies. And I remember when I saw the title, I was like, it's such a brilliant title, like Metabolical. That's what it makes me think, think about. But these books are absolutely fantastic. I think a must read for any family. And you have got just such an extensive history. I would love for you to talk about, you know, because we were just talking about how so many people, and I would say, myself included, like, I just haven't really done all that much with my life. And I read your, you know, your backstory. And you, like, majored in nutritional biochemistry at mit, then you went to Cornell, and then you've worked as a pediatric endocrinologist. You got into the obesity field in 1995. Currently you're the co founder of so many businesses, you're helping with school lunches, and I mean everything from school lunches to these New York Times best selling books. And it's just such an extensive thing. So would you talk about. And then you talked about how you're like, dissecting rat brains for however many years. And I mean, I'm, I'm really impressed. And I think that even just reading it, you're like, gosh, I should do a little bit more with my life. But could you give us a little.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Bit of your history?

[Jenny Herich]

You're growing up eating Salisbury steak TV dinners, and you become this incredible voice about eating real food.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

Well, so first of all, thank you. I'm not sure I'm a whole lot different from anybody else. I, you know, just have, I have some fish to fry. And, you know, I, I mean that both figuratively and literally, you know, trying to fix, I'm trying to fix the world's food supply. Now the question is, how did I come to that specific directive? And the answer is the data brung me, okay? The science brought me here. I Did not come out thinking I was going to be a firebrand or, you know, a flamethrower or a, you know, a public health advocate. That was not how I started out. I started out wanting to be a pediatrician taking care of kids, and I very specifically wanted to be a pediatrician as opposed to an adult physician. Because when you see an adult who's smoking, what do you think they should.

[Jenny Herich]

They shouldn't smoke.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

They shouldn't. It's their fault. Okay, right now, we know a lot about addiction now, but back in those days, you know, back in the 1970s, you saw somebody smoking and you basically said, you know, it's their fault. You can't do that to a kid. You can't ascribe blame to a child. So from a moral standpoint, it is much easier to take care of a child than it is to take care of an adult, because every child deserves an equal shot. And what I came to realize through my research and through all everybody else's research is that kids today don't get an equal shot. In fact, they don't get a shot at all. And, you know, it, you know, behooved me to try to help do something about that for the benefit of children. And that's why I became a pediatrician. And how I fell into the obesity field is actually, you know, I majored in nutrition in college, and then I went to medical school, and they beat it out of me. You know, every time I asked a nutrition question, I got hissed by the of the class, you know, like, you know, oh, there goes Lustig again. And, you know, the professors would say, that's not how we take care of patients. And, you know, I was paying good money and, you know, I should learn how to do it, quote right, unquote. And so I basically deep sixed my nutritional knowledge for over 20 years after, you know, during med school and residency and fellowship. And then I started researching obesity and why. I had learned about an area of the brain that controls hormones called the hypothalamus. And I learned that if you damage the hypothalamus, you become massively obese. And no one understood why. So this is a form of obesity, is called hypothalamic obesity. And I started working at St. Jude Children's Research Hospital in Memphis, Tennessee Pediatric Cancer Hospital. And they had a stable cadre of 40 kids who had survived their brain tumors only to become massively obese. And you can be very sure that because these kids were normal weight before the brain tumor and became massively obese after the brain tumor, that it wasn't their fault, that there had to be a biochemical reason for their weight gain. And so I knew enough about how the brain worked and how it, you know, sent nerves to the pancreas to release insulin. And I said, well, let's try to stop the insulin release on these kids. And we gave them a drug that suppressed insulin release. And guess what? They started losing weight, but more importantly, they started exercising spontaneously. And this told me obesity is not behavioral, it's biochemical. And I have since parlayed that concept into not just a career, but, you know, the, the ability to, you know, discern what kind of obesity anybody has, because there are many different reasons for obesity, many different pathologies, and each one requires a different therapy. There are, you know, public health implications. And then, of course, the question is, well, what's driving it in the general population? And it turned out the answer is the food. And so I have dedicated my retirement to trying to solve the world's food supply.

[Jenny Herich]

Yeah.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

And that's how I got here.

[Jenny Herich]

Yeah. And you talk about how, you know, for the kids that don't have tumors, you're like, I. I know this works because they would come in and then we would switch to real food and it would solve so many of their problems. I want to read just a bit of what you wrote. Such a great writer. This passage is from the Hacking of the American Mind. You said I became a pediatrician in part to relive and help challenge the wonder and delight involved in growth. We were all children once like you. More chances than not. My great. My greatest moments of happiness during childhood have stuck with me and to this day continue to bring a smile and sometimes even a tear. Childhood is a time of mind expansion, not just in knowledge, but in experimentation, in inquisitiveness, in trying out new concepts and strategies. And childhood is supposed to be a time when the balloon of happiness soars high above the mundane. The tools for the trade for most kids were peanut butter sandwich, a bicycle, and a bedtime story. But our health is really declining. And so what you write about helps families. It helps children. I would love to talk about this language that you use, which I think is so helpful, where you say a lot of what you say is, like, about the. The drugs that we take, and you're like, well, they're. Those are just dealing with symptoms. Drugs don't treat chronic disease. They only treat symptoms. And so you talk about how there are these eight sub subcellular pathologies that are not druggable oh, this is great vocabulary for someone who maybe doesn't understand all of the background, but like, this really helps you understand. You can't fix it by drugs. You can maybe deal with the symptoms. It's not druggable, but it is. This is the word to use, foodable. And that of the eight, five of them you could help with exercise, but all of them you could help by switching to real food. Only real food works is what you write. So can you talk at a high level? People can pick up metabolic to read in more detail, but these intercellular processes that have gone awry.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

So, you know, the question is, what is causing all of this chronic disease? Here's a way to look at it. Each of us has been imbued by God, basically, our birthright with a shiny new cherry red Corvette. And our job over the course of our lifetime is to keep that shiny cherry red Corvette in perfect working order, lest it become a jalopy. Okay? That is the charge of life, keeping that Corvette in perfect working order. Bad thing is you have to do it without a warranty and without an owner's manual. So you have to understand what it takes to keep that shiny red Corvette in perfect working order without an owner's manual. And that's why I wrote the book. Metabolical is to explain the eight pathologies that basically turn that Corvette into a jalopy, that turn your body into a, you know, breaks your, your, your health. And when it all comes down to it, I can sum it up in one word. Mitochondria. Mitochondria, the energy burning factories inside your cells. But they are way more than that. That's what you learn in, you know, 10th grade biology. Okay, but it's much more than that. But if you make your mitochondria work right, the eight pathologies pretty much all get better. Now, what are the eight pathologies? I'll use the car analogy because I like, you know, because people know about cars, they don't know about medicine. Glycation would be like carbon deposits on your intake manifolds. Oxidative stress would be like rusting both of the chassis and of the body. Mitochondrial dysfunction would be like having a defective transmission. Insulin resistance would be like having sticky carburetors. So when you step on the pedal, instead of going vroom, vroom, you go putt, putt. Membrane integrity would be like having rotted fuel lines. Inflammation would be like having fire under your hood, literally. Methylation would be like having defective spark plugs. So instead of driving a V6, you're driving a V2. And finally, autophagy would be like having oil sludge. Now, if you were the owner of this shiny red Corvette, you would pay attention to all of those things to keep it in perfect working order. But you are the owner of a shiny red Corvette, and you're not paying attention to what's happening inside your body. And so the question is, how do you do that? So the way you figure that out is you actually look at those eight pathologies and what drives them, and it turns out they're all driven by problem food, right? Whether it's carbohydrate, fructose, lack of fiber, lack of omega 3s, gluten, you know, frequent feeding, etc. There are a host of different reasons why these different things happen, but they're almost all due to food. And so if you fix the food, you fix the pathologies. That's why they're all foodable. Now, the question is, they all end up at the mitochondria at some point. All eight of these. Are there any medicines that fix the mitochondria? And the answer is, no, there are not. Medicines don't get to the mitochondria. Actually, as it turns out, there is one, and it's new, and we're starting to experiment with it, and this may end up being a very great boon to mankind. And I'm excited about it, and I will just leave it at that. Okay. Because if it turns out to be true, you know, basically, I'll be able to, you know, eat my words and take back everything I said on this podcast. But right now, today, this is the way it is. Okay? Yeah. You know, you can only fix it with food. There's no drug that fixes this. Okay? Now, the question is, what kind of food? And the answer is real food. Real food gets to the mitochondria. What about ultra processed food, since that's what, you know, Americans are eating? You know, 62% of all the food sold in America is ultra processed, and 67% of the food that kids eat is ultra processed. Does ultra processed food get to the mitochondria? Well, unfortunately, ultra processed food actually inhibits mitochondrial function, causes the mitochondria to not work well. So if you're making mitochondria not work well, then guess what? Those eight pathologies all manifest themselves and you are on your way to jalopy. That's. That's what I try to explain in metabolic.

[Jenny Herich]

And it's so good because. Well, you understand then that what's happening is the drugs are just there for symptoms and they're not ever going to actually fix the problem. And that exercise is only going to help five of these things respond. Only real food works. So is incredibly important to understand because you talk about how the hidden business model of big Pharma is to turn one drug into many, and that's what's happening. There's all this money that's going into research, a trillion dollars into statins, all.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

This money, and now we got GLP1s. You know, it's. Yeah. I mean, bottom line is I'm not against drugs, but if somehow you think taking a drug is going to solve your problem, you got another thing coming. I got a bridge to sell you.

[Jenny Herich]

Yeah, yeah. You wrote modern medicine is a racket.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

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[Jenny Herich]

So, okay, you had this statement. I want to talk about it. Seeing a doctor is actually the cause of these chronic diseases. There's data to support it. So can you talk about the things that a doctor doesn't know? And you talk about this in terms of your experience. You already brought it up. You're like, I got it. I got this degree in nutrition. I go and talk about it. Nobody wants to talk about it.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Only.

[Jenny Herich]

Only a small percentage of medical schools are even teaching nutrition, so they don't spend any time on it. But the sentence of seeing a doctor is actually the cause of these chronic diseases is a huge statement.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

Well, here's the problem. 80% of medical education is underwritten by big pharma. They do not want you to know this because if you knew this, they wouldn't sell as many drugs and you wouldn't prescribe as many drugs. You might actually prescribe prevention through food if you knew it, but no doctor knows it. The only reason I know it is because I learned it in college before I went to medical school. So if you didn't major in nutrition in college, you know, and you go through medical school, what do you expect? And if you ask a doctor, well, you know, how do you use nutrition in your practice? They'll say, we don't. I don't know how, because they never learned it. The question is, is that okay? And the answer, of course, is no. But that's the state of, you know, medicine today. We're trying to fix that. You know, medicine 1.0 was like leeches, you know, copy and stuff like that. Medicine 2.0 was, you know, the advent of antibiotics and, you know, basically the drug revolution, you know, that started in the 1940s through, you know, present day. But medicine 3.0 is basically preventative and where the patient has to do a lot of the work because the doctor doesn't even understand it.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

And that's where we are today. And so I'm trying to, you know, do my, you know, best to try to educate the public about what it is they need to understand and know about medicine to help fix their own problems.

[Jenny Herich]

And you explain that there's a lot of pressure here to go with the flow. You wrote doctors are sheep, meaning doctors follow the herd of other doctors. And there's good reason. If you don't follow the medical guidelines, you get a lousy evaluation on health grades, which is an online company that evaluates physicians and gives them a Number of score and the hospital medical board will then investigate you and can revoke your privileges. And you give examples of people who went on trial, they're going to come with something different. They're going to come with something that goes against Big Pharma. You're like, big Pharma is funding some of the schools, so they don't want that. And it's actually, I mean, to have to go on trial to help, to actually help people, I mean, that's a really big deal.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

It is absolutely crazy. Now the good news is that all three of the people that I talk about are still standing. The ones that I reference in the book are still standing. And you know, they have beaten their, the wrap, as it were, and appropriately so because, you know, they have the data. They, they, they showed that in fact the nutritional education they were trying to give their patients in lieu of, you know, medications actually was effective. But why should they have to go through that in the first place? And why is medicine, and by the way, dietetics so slow in adopting the idea that food is medicine? Now here's the problem with that statement. Food can be medicine. Food can also be poison. And the question is, how do you figure out which is which? Now I will tell you, it's hard for the uninitiated to know which is which. And the reason is because the food industry tells you that ultra processed food is food. Question is, is that true? Is ultra processed food food, just because they say it, just because it's consumable doesn't make it food.

[Jenny Herich]

You call it poison?

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

Well, I, I do, and for good reason. Because I have the data, I have the data to show it. So in order to answer that question, you have to know what's the definition of food? Now if you look it up in the dictionary, you can do it right now if you want. I, I've done it and I've memorized it. Okay. The definition of food is substrate that contributes to either the growth or burning of an organism. It's exactly right. Webster's got it exactly right. Substrate that contributes to either growth or burning of an organism. Okay, so let's take that apart. Growth. Turns out ultra processed food actually inhibits growth. It inhibits long bone growth, it inhibits trabecular bone growth. It inhibits cortical bone growth. It inhibits cancellous bone growth. Basically, if you subject a rat to ultra processed food, they don't grow. And now we have data on third world countries where ultra processed food is given and it causes stunting of growth in Those people as well. So inhibits growth. What about burning? So everybody says, well, they're calories. So calories get burned. Well, do they? They get burned when your mitochondria work. But what if you're. What if the food actually makes you mitochondria not work? We have data now to show that ultra processed food, and specifically the molecule fructose, which I've focused on, you know, kind of my hobby horse because, you know, we got the data. Fructose turns out to actually be a dose dependent mitochondrial toxin. It makes mitochondria work less well, so it generates less of the energy that your cell needs to power itself. That energy, the chemical energy that the mitochondria make, is called ATP adenosine triphosphate, which you also learned in 10th grade biology and then promptly forgot about. But you know, ATP is the currency of the cell and the currency of the human. Okay. And if you don't make ATP, you get sick. Just that simple. Well, if you're eating stuff that poisons mitochondria so you make less ATP, guess what? You get sick. It's that simple. It really is that simple. So the goal is to eat stuff that goes to mitochondria, makes your mitochondria work better, not worse.

[Jenny Herich]

Yeah.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

And the what does that. Real food.

[Jenny Herich]

Real food goes back to real food. Processed food, you write, uniquely feeds cancer growth. And then in the hacking of the American mind, processed food is no different from any other substance of abuse. In hacking of the American mind, you talk about how we've traded pleasure for happiness and that pleasure got cheap. And so a lot of these substances of abuse used to be scarce and now they're everywhere. And few of us know how to attain contentment. It's like you really run the gamut of fixing your health. But also, how do I live a good life? Like, how do I live a life that I really want to have and not be taken in by these different addictions. So back to the medicine too. I think it's something to be aware of, is that there's now drug resistant bacteria. You wrote, our current crop of antibiotics is coming close to being useless. Add to that the fact that viral diseases are now even more dangerous and harder to control than bacteria ever were. So it was a lot to be aware of as a parent. This stuff matters for the health of your child. So I would love to talk about the big sugar. Okay, this is super interesting. I didn't know this at all. I would have thought, and I've read some of the things like There's a book called Propaganda where they started to sell all this processed food. But you think before that was the cigarettes? So you wrote, one might assume that Big Sugar learned its tricks from big Tobacco.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Here's what you write.

[Jenny Herich]

Actually, it's the other way around.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

Indeed.

[Jenny Herich]

Can you explain that?

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

We have the data. It started in 1943. Okay. You know, in the 50s, tobacco started basically denying that it was bad for you because the. Richard Dahl, a physician in Britain, first put tobacco with lung cancer together back in the 50s. Actually turns out probably are the Argentinian doctors knew this back in the 1930s, but it didn't kind of get into English speaking countries for a while. So Dahl wrote this very famous paper that appeared in 1950 about cigarette smoking and cancer. It turned out that in fact there were executives from the sugar industry who actually went to the tobacco industry and said, here's how you deal with this problem. Wow. One guy's name was Robert Hockett. And you know, to my great dismay, he was a professor at mit. You know, this is, you know, I love mit, but, you know, I went to school there. I give money. But this was not their shining moment. No, they've had a few other not, not shining moments lately too, like the Epstein business. But you know, the fact is the, the sugar industry actually had to suppress, you know, negative publicity about their product. And they use that, you know how they did that to actually help the tobacco industry.

[Jenny Herich]

Oh, my goodness. And this has been going on for so long. You wrote, the food industry knows what it's doing. It's creating a market to profit off the misery of others. And then you had. There was a section and I have so many notes on this book. But you went through like, like all the different industries. And it was like, there's the food industry and there's the chemical industry. And then, I mean, you throw the government. How do they make money? Well, they make money off all the tariffs from all of the processed foods that are sold outside of the country. And you're like, everyone is in on it. And the answer here is real food. You, in the book, you talk about the calories and calories out myth that calories are the industry shield. It's how they hinder culpability. And that helps you also understand the zero calorie myth, which I learned from this woman named Dr. Kate Shanahan. It was like, well, anytime your body tastes something sweet, it releases insulin. And I didn't know that. You know, you think, oh, it's zero calories. It's like Nothing. And that's not true.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

It's not true. In fact, diet sweeteners have not resulted in weight loss. Otherwise everybody be on them. They do not result in weight loss in that. Now it is true. They don't have fructose, you know, my, you know, dose dependent mitochondrial toxin. That's true. They don't have calories. That's also true. I don't disagree with that. But the fact of the matter is they do other stuff instead. So what the diet sweeteners do, they do two things that you know that are relevant. One is they tell the brain sugar's coming, even though sugar's not coming. But they. Through the tongue. The tongue doesn't. Can't discern the difference. It knows something sweet's there. And so it sends a message to the brain, sugar's coming, get ready to release the insulin. And the brain sends the information to the pancreas. Like, you know those kids with the hypothalamic obesity we started with, okay. That's the pathway from the brain to the pancreas release the insulin, and so you end up releasing the insulin anyway, even though it wasn't calories, even though it wasn't fructose, even though it wasn't sugar, okay? And the insulin drives energy into fat anyway, so it drives obesity irrespective of its calories. The second thing it does is those diet sweeteners, at least several of them, not all of them, but several of them, alter the microbiome, alter the bacteria in the intestine and create this phenomenon which we now call leaky gut, where the gut's supposed to be a barrier against the stuff in it, so it doesn't get into your bloodstream because all that stuff will be inflammatory. But when you have leaky gut, now that stuff is inflammatory and it gets in and causes first gut inflammation, then systemic inflammation. And systemic inflammation is one of the drivers of chronic metabolic disease. So even though these diet sweeteners don't have calories, don't have fructose, they're dangerous all by themselves.

[Jenny Herich]

Because it's not about calories and calories.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

That's right. Yeah.

[Jenny Herich]

Calories are the industry shield. It's how they hide from culpability. You're, you have this mantra in here. Protect the liver, feed the gut. And you wrote that if you don't feed your microbiome or you're doing things like this, like with the, the diet products, you wrote your microbiome will feed on you. It will literally chew up the layer that protects your intestinal and I don't even know how to pronounce the words, but these intestinal epithelial cells. Yeah, it will feed on you. So you have to feed your gut. And processed food starves it. And then you wrote, this is it. You're going to learn so much. Read both books. A happy gut means a happy you. And that's what we want. We want to have happy kids. We want to have happy gut. You talk about how real food is good for the planet. You talk about the costs here that even just like short term and long term costs, that all of this matters. But I would love to talk about the children because this is what you, what you worked with children for so many years and a lot of parents listen in.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

So here's what you say.

[Jenny Herich]

Public schools are the biggest food franchise operation in the world.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

Indeed.

[Jenny Herich]

And they have no official limit for sugar.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

They beat the pants off McDonald's, Wendy's, Burger King all put together.

[Jenny Herich]

Wow.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

There are more public schools than there are fast food restaurants in America. And you know, what are they selling or what are they providing? Providing ultra processed food. That's because that's what's cheap and storable.

[Jenny Herich]

Yeah.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

And the fact is, you know, our kids are suffering because of it. Everybody wants to know why. You know, kids grades are going down. This is why. Everyone wants to know why kids are getting obese. This is why. Everybody wants to know why kids are getting type 2 diabetes. This is why. Fatty liver disease. This is why. So how do you fix that? Well, here's the problem. In 1971, the Department of Health, Education and Welfare, HEW, the precursor to the Department of Education, passed a resolution called Resolution 242. And what this said was that cafeterias inside public schools have to make book. They have to basically cover their costs. They cannot be a loss leader for the school. They can't. Their losses cannot be folded into the general cafeteria in general school budget. Okay. They had to basically fend for themselves is what this thing said. Now what was the reason for this? Money. Yeah, it's only about.

[Jenny Herich]

It's all going back to money.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

Always. It always goes back to money. That's always the reason for everything. Money. Okay. So this was a way to try to, you know, keep the money from flowing out. Well, this scent of food service directors around the country, you know, scurrying, you know, to try to figure out how they're going to solve this. And in walks Aramark and in walks Guggenheim and in walks Cisco and walks McDonald's and walks Pizza Hut. Et cetera, et cetera. And they go to the, you know, food service director. Hey, look, you know, what was the most expensive thing about running your operation? Personnel. The lunch ladies. Okay? They cost the most. Okay, so what if we supplied you with a, quote, nutritious, unquote. Because, you know, who's to say what's nutritious? Nutritious, hot meal every single day. And you can fire all the lunch ladies. Better yet. Better yet, you can take the food preparation facilities in your school where you would make the food, and you could turn those into new classrooms, which you're going to need.

[Narrator/Poet]

Wow.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

Which was really their goal always in the first place, because as soon as you get rid of the food preparation facilities, now you're hostage to the food industry for the rest of your life. You have no choice.

[Jenny Herich]

You sure are.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

So basically, that supplied them with 50 years worth of, you know, big bucks to, you know, quote, feed our children. Except they're not feeding them food. They're feeding them poison. So the question is, how can you fix that? How do you undo that?

[Co-host/Interviewer]

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[Dr. Robert Lustig]

So that's why we started our nonprofit called Eat Real. And you can find it [e-mail] Yep. And what we do is we develop business models for different school districts around the country, because every school district has their own challenges. And so every school district needs something a little bit different. And we basically help train the people in that district on how to procure, serve, market real food in schools K to 12. Okay? And it turns out when you actually know what you're doing and how to do it, it ends up being cheaper than buying it from Guggenheim and hour mark and McDonald's and Pizza Hut. And you don't have to hire all the lunch ladies, although you do have to have a food preparation facility. So you may have to either buy an abandoned warehouse or, you know, some other, you know, edifice, you know, and convert it and, you know, into a food preparation facility, you know, that would then serve that entire district. And that's how we got started. And we are now serving, servicing 1 million students.

[Jenny Herich]

All right, states.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

In 20 states.

[Jenny Herich]

All right, Dr. Lustig. All right. That's incredible. Eat real.org. i'll make sure. I'll put the link in the show notes. You're the co founder and chief medical officer. What I want to talk about your other businesses in just a moment as well. But it reminds me of. There's this farmer. He's my favorite farmer. His name's Joel Saladin and he was born in the mid-1950s, which I know because he's the same age as my dad. So he would have been going to school, you know, in the 1960s, 60s. And he told me this story about how he's a farmer and he grew up on a farm and you know, he's trying to make money. He's like a real good entrepreneur even as a kid. And he sold the school district that he went to his eggs, his eggs. And he would bring his eggs in from his farm and the lunch ladies would make them for lunch. That was in the 60s. And so, so interesting. This resolution 242 in 1971 changes everything. Now public schools are the biggest food franchise oper world. You all talk about hospitals. Look at the quality of food in hospitals. Can we talk about even younger than school age or. I want to read this. More and more young people are developing metabolic syndrome earlier. Adolescents with metabolic syndrome demonstrate cognitive decline and greater impulsivity. So this really matters for our school age kids. You're talking about how these diseases that were only for adults are showing up for kids and in large numbers. But then before school age. Then you also talk about in utero and breastfeeding. Galactose. Never talked about galactose. That's a great word. Can you talk about what parents need to know if they're thinking about having children, if they're currently pregnant? How does the processed food affect those early, early years?

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

Right. So people think that the placenta is a barrier between the mother and the kid and that the kid, because of the placenta, whatever the mother's exposed to, the kid's not. Garbage. Yeah, garbage. Now the placenta is a barrier. I'm not going to argue that that is true. But it lets all sorts of stuff in. And so what mother is exposed to and it can be through her food or can be through her skin, can be, you know, other stuff, you know, what she breathes, okay. Ultimately gets to the fetus as well and can affect mitochondrial function in the fetus. And so the question is, wow, how do we basically get mothers healthier so that they can deliver healthier babies? And so that's what metabolical is about. Because as soon as you do that for pregnant mothers, you've done it for everybody. Because a lot of mothers don't know they're pregnant until much later anyway. So ultimately we have to fix the environment. We have no choice but to fix the environment. And that's really what metabolic is about. Now what happens to ba. To. To fetuses? Well, turns out fructose, this sweet molecule, and sugar, the molecule that's addictive, the molecule that we seek, it is a dose dependent mitochondrial toxin. Like I talked about before, it was always assumed that fructose does not cross the placenta. Oh, yes, it does. The reason why we thought that it didn't cross the placenta is because the GLUT5 transporter, which is a specific protein and it's found in the liver in, you know, in humans, is not in the placenta. And the glute 5 transporter is specific for fructose. So therefore, if the glue 5 transporter is absent from the placenta, then fructose doesn't get across the placenta. That was the assumption wrong. Turns out the placenta has the glute 7, 9 and 11 transporters which transport fructose just fine. Okay. And so the fetus is awash in whatever the mother consumed, and that's causing mitochondrial dysfunction in the fetus, and that is leading to fatty liver in the fetus. In the fetus.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Jeez.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

Babies born with fatty liver, they're also born with obesity. Okay. How can a baby be born with obesity? They don't diet or exercise. And the answer is because baby is exposed to all sorts of things that drive adiposity. We call them environmental obesogens, chemicals that induce fat cell differentiation or growth, having nothing to do with calories, exclusive of their caloric equivalent. Things like bpa, things like pfas, ionizing radiation, microplastics. Okay. All things, you know, that, you know, sort of baked into the cake now. Okay, but food is, you know, the biggest obesogen and fructose is the biggest of the. Of the biggest. And that's the one that we could fix tomorrow if we had the political will to do so.

[Jenny Herich]

Cut out the processed foods and.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

Well, the best way to get rid of the fructose is cut out the processed foods.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

So, you know, that's, you know, that, that, that's kind of how, how this all goes. Then there's the question of, all right, what do you feed the baby once the baby's out?

[Jenny Herich]

Yeah.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

Okay. And the answer there is, well, mother's milk. Except people said, oh, if mom drinks a Coke, the sugar doesn't get into the breast milk. Oh, yes, it does. It sure does. We can show by HPLC the fructose peak in the mother's milk after mom drank a Coke. All right, so mom has to actually be careful about what she consumes, even, you know, after the baby's born. So. And then, of course, toddlerhood, you know, is just replete with sugar everywhere. And the National School Breakfast program, you know, which, you know, 29% of all children in America are consuming. I mean, what's the standard National School Breakfast program? Breakfast? It's a bowl of Froot Loops and a glass of orange juice. That's 71. Sorry, that's 41 grams of sugar. American Heart association says maximum 12 grams of sugar for the whole day. That's 41 grams of sugar. And it's just breakfast.

[Jenny Herich]

Yeah, it's dessert. That's what you're calling it?

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

Well, it's dessert. I mean, basically, you know, yeah, we're. We're consuming dessert at every meal.

[Jenny Herich]

That's right.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

That's right.

[Jenny Herich]

Fructose affects taste receptors in utero. The current generation is still paying for the previous generation SpaghettiOs. That Coke wasn't just the real thing for you, but for your unborn kids, too. This is incredibly important for parents to read. What you eat when pregnant plays a large part in determining your child's future. And many talk about the baby food by the time they hit six months of age. 60 of US infants consume some daily added sugars. After six months, that number jumps to 98%. It's almost every single child. And then you connect it with jaw growth and sleep apnea, which we've talked actually quite a bit about on this show, that, like the way that you wean kids, that the pacifiers, the plastic nipples, and you say wisdom teeth. Wisdom teeth are a biomarker. And if you have them taken out, your jaw is going to get smaller, that's going to collapse your airway. So these are incredible books for parents to read. I need to read these books all the time because like you said, this is almost. I mean, this is a majority of the food supply. So it's like I need that reminder all the time, you know, and. And then you connect it to the brain. So insulin resistance, okay, not only dementia, which you talked about earlier, that like. Or it got brought up earlier about how this is affecting kids schooling, like how well are their brains working, that these diseases that people used to have at really old age and were uncommon. You talked about how this was a relatively rare occurrence when you were in medical school. Dementia and diabetes, it's like trickling lower. But beyond that, beyond the dementia, also depression. Insulin resistance has been shown to be a primary cause of clinical depression is affecting everything.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

All true, all true. Because depression, you know, we, we think of it as a serotonin deficiency because SSRIs are used for depression, right?

[Jenny Herich]

Yeah.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

But the fact of the matter is only 35% of people who go on SSRIs are actually helped by them.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

So if, if depression is serotonin deficiency, why is it that 65% of people.

[Jenny Herich]

Are not helped because it's not druggable, it's foodable?

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

Well, because there are two depressions, not one.

[Jenny Herich]

Oh, interesting.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

So the one is called mdd or major depressive disorder. And that is, for lack of a better word, serotonin deficiency. And the SSRIs are essential for that class of depression. And I don't argue that if you have mdd, you need Prozac or, you know, Zoloft or whatever. And you know, that's, that's a, that's a, you know, a truth, if you will. But the other people who have been diagnosed with depression, they don't have major depressive disorder. They have something else. They have something called atypical depression. Now what's the difference between major depressive disorder and atypical depression? Major depressive disorder is depression. Atypical depression is anxiety.

[Jenny Herich]

Oh.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

Major depressive disorder is about the past. A, A typical depression is about the future. Anxiety is about the future. Okay. They're not the same. Okay. They need an anti anxiety agent is what they need. And it turns out that every state that has legalized marijuana has seen a decline in SSRI use as the marijuana has gone up. Basically, they've substituted one anti anxiety agent that doesn't work for one that does. And they're voting with their feet because, you know, the marijuana is now legal and available to them. Okay. So anxiety is a very different disorder than depression. What is anxiety? Turns out anxiety is about not enough energy inside brain cells, not enough ATP. What caused the ATP to go down? The ultra processed food. And my colleagues at Sapien Labs in Washington, D.C. did a epidemiologic study of, I think 700,000 people and showed that the more ultra processed food they ate, the worse their depression. Because it's not major depressive disorder, it's atypical depression, I. E. Anxiety, I. E. Neuroenergetics, not neurotransmitters.

[Jenny Herich]

Yeah.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

So different disorder needs a different treatment. And the best treatment for Atypical depression. Real food.

[Jenny Herich]

Real food goes back to real food.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

It always comes back to real. It always comes back to real food.

[Jenny Herich]

Yeah.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

Every single time.

[Jenny Herich]

Yes. You wrote real food is good for the wallet. Some people think real food is snobbish. But you're changing. You're changing this here. You're helping to change. The books are phenomenal. If you do not fix your foodie.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Right.

[Jenny Herich]

You continue to court chronic disease and death. And then you talk about how this can change quick. Every aspect. So this was a study. This one's in the hacking of the American Mind where you talk about the. If these people, they switch to eating lower sugar meals and it says every aspect of their metabolic health improved significantly after just 10 days. Oh, it's so hopeful, like you can change things around.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

Absolutely. You know, everyone thinks, well, I'm too far gone. That's absolutely not true. You can reverse this. The problem is you can't medicate this.

[Jenny Herich]

Right.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

The only way to fix this is by fixing the food. There are no other options.

[Jenny Herich]

Yeah, yeah. And you talked about the labels and Joel Salton that I brought up before, he's got a book called Beyond Labels. It's so great. And he talks about how, you know, well, yeah, it's going to tell you this many calories also it's probably going to be off because it doesn't have to be super accurate. He's like, what it doesn't tell you was, was that chicken bathed in chlorine? You know, like. And that's what you talk about. The food processing is not listed on the label. And what you really need to know is what has been done to the food. You wrote. What the food industry doesn't want you to know is that all food is inherently good. It's what's been done to the food that's bad. Medical metabolically talked about glyphosate, atrazine, flavor enhancers. So many other things we haven't even gotten to. And so I just cannot recommend it more highly. Metabolic. The lure and lies of processed food, nutrition and modern medicine. The hacking of the American mind. The science behind the corporate takeover of our bodies and brains. You talk about your wife's grandma. She lived on a farm in rural Minnesota. She was 101, grew her own food and she garden. She limited her tv, she didn't see the doctor. Talked about Jane Seymour. You're like, she's like, I'm, I look so good cuz I've never had processed food. So the amount of things that this affects is so Many. And the book is tremendous. The books, they're tremendous. And there's a one called Fat Chance. So as we're wrapping it up, can you tell the listeners the other? You're like the chief medical officer and co founder of several companies. So can you tell them the other ones? And I'll make sure I'll put it in the show notes.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

Well, I'm the co founder and chief medical officer of a fiber company because fiber is the food for your bacteria. And as I said, if you do not feel you feed your bacteria, your bacteria will feed on you. Okay, the question is ultra processed food is fiberless food. But ultra processed food's not going away. As much as I hate it, it's not going away. It's got a reduced depreciation, it's got a reduced, increased shelf life. So reduced wastage. There are a lot of advantages to ultra processed food. Easier to package, you know, doesn't go, it doesn't go rancid as quickly. There are a lot of reasons why ultra processed food is going to hang around whether I like it or not. So we have to make our peace with it. We have to figure out, can we make ultra processed food healthy? And the answer is you can, if you attend to three things. Protect the liver, feed the gut, support the brain. Those three things Protect the liver, feed the gut, support the brain. Well, there's one ingredient that does all three of those at the same time and it's called fiber. So my colleagues and I have launched a company called Bio Lumen. The product is called Monch Munch. M O N C H M O N C H. Not Munch munch but munch munch. Okay. And you can find it online at Monchmunch Shop. And it is a proprietary fiber. It is a combination soluble insoluble fiber. You need both. That's what real food has, is both. So it is a 7 micron microcellulose sponge. You swallow, it goes into your stomach, expands 70 fold over its original size because it's a sponge, goes like so. And when it does that, you get a little feeling of fullness. But more importantly, the nooks and the crannies in the sponge become obvious. And impregnated in the nooks and the crannies are a set of proprietary hydrogels, soluble fiber that are chosen specifically to soak up, absorb, sequester, glucose, fructose, sucrose, simple starches, rendering them unavailable for early absorption. Thus, as they go through the intestine, they don't get Absorbed, So that keeps your glucose response low, keeps your insulin response low, protects your liver so it doesn't turn the fructose into fat, which keeps your insulin sensitivity improved. And because you didn't absorb it early, it goes further down the intestine. Where? To the jejunum, the second part of the intestine, where the microbiome is. And then the microbiome will chew up all that carbohydrate for its own purposes. So even though you consumed it, even though past your lips, you actually didn't get it, your microbiome did. And it turned the short chain fatty acids go up, which are anti inflammatory, anti Alzheimer's. And the cellulose acts like little scrubbies on the inside of the colon to get rid of colon cancer cells. In other words, what this fiber does is it recapitulates the effects of fiber on the food that the food industry took out. Fiber replacement therapy. We're turning apple juice back into apples in the intestine. Okay.

[Jenny Herich]

This is important.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

And we have double blind placebo control data to show that this is a good thing and no side effects. Okay. We did two clinical trials, one in Australia, one in India. 125 patients, not one discontinued, not one. And not one complained of any side effects. In fact, if they had diarrhea on Monch Munch, they didn't. If they had bloating on March Munch, they didn't. If they had pain on Monch Munch, they didn't. If they had constipation on Monch Munch, they didn't. They didn't. We actually regressed all their GI problems to the mean because we're giving the intestine what it wants.

[Jenny Herich]

Yeah.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

Fiber replacement therapy. How cool is that?

[Jenny Herich]

It's so cool, Dr. Lustig.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Wow.

[Jenny Herich]

That's only another one. There's Eat Real, there's biolumin, there's one for Alzheimer's.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

Yes. We have started an Alzheimer's prevention company called Snap Recall. And basically we are trying and succeeding in diagnosing Alzheimer's before any cognitive decline, three years before any change in cognitive function, and then being able to figure out what to do to turn it around before people suffer. Wow.

[Jenny Herich]

Wow. And there's food procurement.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

Yep. And that's called perfect. And you can find that online@perfect co. And what that does is that goes to your grocery store and basically filters out all of the food that's bad for you.

[Narrator/Poet]

Wow.

[Jenny Herich]

Are you just so impressed with yourself?

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

No.

[Jenny Herich]

You should be.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

No, because I haven't. Because I haven't Fixed any problems yet?

[Narrator/Poet]

It.

[Jenny Herich]

Oh, I think so.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

I'm working on it, but I. I haven't. I haven't fixed anything yet. If you look at the obesity rates, if you look at the diabetes rates, if you look at the, you know, heart disease rates, if you look at the cancer rates and the dementia rates in this country, okay. They continue to go up. Yeah, I'm working on it. But until I see changes, I'm not. I'm not declaring victory.

[Jenny Herich]

Yeah. But there are individuals that you are helping tremendously. The books are phenomenal.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

I appreciate that.

[Jenny Herich]

Dr. Lustig, what an honor. We always end our show circling very back to the beginning about childhood. What's a favorite memory from your childhood?

[Co-host/Interviewer]

That was outside.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

Oh, boy. Favorite memory from my childhood, huh? Gotta think about that, I guess. Going with my parents to Joan's Boy beach in Long island and swimming in the. In the ocean. And I remember my mother saying, you can't go in the water because you just ate that ice cream. And as it turns out, that was a croc of Huey, and I always knew it was a Croco Hooey, but, you know, I was a kid.

[Jenny Herich]

That is so amazing that you said that, because that's, like, such a thing people say all the time. So you ended it with an incredible piece of information. Dr. Lustig, thank you for saying yes. Thank you for these incredible books. All the extra work that you're doing is an honor of a lifetime to get this chance to talk with you.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

My pleasure. Thanks very much for having me. Jenny.

[Narrator/Poet]

Get outside Open your eyes Feel that sunshine kissing your skin Throw your worries out to the wind.

[Jenny Herich]

Climb some.

[Narrator/Poet]

Trees Skin your knees Feel that grass on your feet again get out there and take it in.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

Oh.

[Narrator/Poet]

It'S a.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

Beautiful world.

[Narrator/Poet]

Ain't nothing on the screen that's ever gonna beat this.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

O.

[Jenny Herich]

Beautiful.

[Dr. Robert Lustig]

World.

[Narrator/Poet]

And I just want to share with I just want to share with you this beautiful world Such a beautiful world.