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The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 715: Extreme Ownership at Home | Jamie Cochran, Echelon Front
00:59:07
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- [00:00]
Podcast Host - Opening/Closing
Oh, it's a beautiful world Ain't nothing on screen that's ever gonna be this view oh, it's a beautiful world and I just want to share with I just want to share with you this beautiful world Such a beautiful.
- [00:35]
Sponsor Voice
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- [01:02]
Podcast Host - Interviewer
My name is Jenny Ert. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and I'm so honored today. Jamie Cochran, she is the. Okay, I always get mixed up with
- [01:11]
Jamie Cochran - COO of Echelon Front
the, with the acronyms C, coo, coo, Chief Operating Officer.
- [01:18]
Podcast Host - Interviewer
Jamie Cochran is the COO of Echelon Front and this is a company that is founded by Jocko Willink and founded by Leif Babin. And this is about leadership. They've taken their military training and all of these things that they've learned on the battlefield and funneled it into leadership principles that often are used obviously in businesses, but I found are really applicable to families. So I would love for you to give your story, Jamie, because you were the very first employee, which I would imagine would be so hard.
- [01:51]
Jamie Cochran - COO of Echelon Front
You know, I, it's, it's the honor of my lifetime. It was one of those sort of right time, right places kind of scenarios. My husband worked with Leif Batman, one of our co founders at SEAL Team One when he was in the SEAL team. So I don't have combat experience. I wasn't in the military, but I've done the other side of that covering down on the home front while my husband was training and deploying and doing all that fun stuff. And in that transition when he was getting out of the military and going to business school, I sort of found myself leaving my career that I was currently in, staying home with my kids in that two year span. And at the end of that two year span, as much as I loved my kids, I also wanted to go back to something where I could add value in a career setting. So the opportunity came up in a random conversation with Leif one night over dinner when he was visiting in Boston. And what started as a little conversation became 10 hours part time, kind of some admin work really is what they had for me at that moment. But I really saw a vision for what they were, what they were building at Echelon Front. So I stuck with it. And I'm honored that I'm now coming up on 13 years with the company. And the growth that we've had has been incredible.
- [03:00]
Podcast Host - Interviewer
It is incredible. I was, like, floored. Jamie, that says, like, this is in 2014. You're their first employee. It's only 2015, 26. And the amount of things that you offer is phenomenal. So you said your director of operations and then your name, chief operating officer in 2021, and here it is, 2026. And the amount of things that you offer through Echelon Front is tremendous. So there is an online academy. This is like, where you can go and get training for yourself. You can get it for your team. There's a. There's a free leadership assessment. I'll make sure. I'll put in all the links. There's all these in person events. One of them is geared for women, so that's fantastic. That's in 2027 in Palm Springs, California. But there these other, like, different types of events, too. Like one that's got field training. There's merch, there's all these books. I've read several of the books. There's apparel, there's gear. There's a special thing called Warrior Kids. Oh, my goodness. This is great for parents. Also, obviously, Jocko has his podcast. So the amount of expansion, Jamie, in just over a decade.
- [03:57]
Jamie Cochran - COO of Echelon Front
Yeah. And all of it started with the first idea. Leon. Jocko wrote this book, and I had the. I had the privilege of reading the manuscript for Extreme Ownership, which is everything you just describe is built off of. Yes, that book, Extreme Ownership. And they really, really took this idea from their combat experiences. And how can we translate that into lessons learned? And then more importantly, what's the application to business? So that's what started the business at Echelon Front. Everything you just described has been. Has grown from that foundation. But we, as we were chatting before this podcast, what I found is after I read the book for the first time, and I started thinking, okay, how I'm going to apply these principles as a leader at Echelon Front, as we were growing our team and bringing new people on, the next phase of this book for me was really going through the book and every chapter where it said application to business, I would write down application to home. And what I found was the same leadership principles that worked in combat, the same leadership principles we teach to companies and organizations, and Help leaders in every capacity learn to apply. Also applied, and I would argue even more importantly at home with our families, where leadership is sometimes not considered to be a value and yet it is the most important thing within our homes.
- [05:09]
Podcast Host - Interviewer
Yes, absolutely. That's what I thought. So the book, Extreme Ownership, the subtitle is how U.S. navy SEALs lead and win this by Jacko and Leif. So this is a New York Times bestseller. And I, you know, I. The premise of the book is each of them will take a chapter or part of a chapter, and they'll talk about a certain time, you know, where there was a military situation where it's like someone fell through a roof and like. But there's all these other things going on and are. How are they gonna figure out? How are they going to execute and prioritize and like, figure out what do we do first? And so then they take that situation and they talk about the leadership qualities needed, and then they go and talk to a business, which this is a lot what Echelon Front does. They'll go and do in person, business training, leadership training, and they'll relate a certain company, you know, where someone is like, I don't know what to do. Our profits are failing. And, you know, I've got all these things I could do and how do I pick? And then, similar to you, I was like, oh, my goodness. Every single one of these things could also have an add on that's for parents and for. For leading their family. So this is leadership training. You can't get anywhere else. It's Navy SEALs, Top Gun instructors, first responders, athletes, and business leaders applying that breadth of knowledge for any type of leader. And basically, actually, I mean, what they say is everyone is a leader, which is the truth. Everyone is a leader. So let's kick it off with this concept of extreme ownership. This is one of the ones that is sort of. Oh, that's what the book's called. But this is kind of the main thing. I've been talking to my husband a lot about it. It's like, we're such blamers. But. And, But I never would have really connected Jamie. The fact that when we blame, like, okay, you blame like, oh, wasn't my fault. Okay, maybe you feel a little bit better. But I would have never connected that to, like, long term poor performance. But it is connected to that. Can you talk about why that is?
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Jamie Cochran - COO of Echelon Front
Yeah. So the mindset of extreme ownership. And honestly, everything in the book, you could say, okay, I kind of knew that these principles, I know we got to implement Teamwork. I know we got to prioritize tasks effectively. We have to delegate. We kind of look at this book and there's a lot of things in there you can say, yeah, I understand what that looks like. I understand what leadership should look like. The game changer for me in this book was extreme ownership. This mindset of myself as a leader in any capacity, whether it's at home with my kids, in my business, in my personal life, how I lead myself and my community, communities in any capacity, I, as a leader, have to take extreme ownership for the things that I am responsible for. And that's really difficult because I think what's so innate in our human nature, and we see this in kids, right? Kids at a very young age will lie or deflect or get defensive or make excuses because. And it tells us they're kind of grown with that behavior, they're kind of built with that behavior from the time they enter into the world. So what we have to do is really fight against that human nature and focus on how do we control the outcome of the situations that we're facing and the challenges. Challenges that we're facing. And that answer is by taking ownership of them, by recognizing that by some, in some way, shape or form, I contributed to that problem. There's something I could have done to potentially avoid that problem, or I'm going to take ownership for how I solve this problem and how I ensure this problem doesn't continue to persist. So the ownership piece is a shift in our mindset that over time can be an instinct for how we address problems. And it's exactly what you just said. It's not making excuses. There's no one else to blame. I myself, as a leader, I'm responsible for the outcome of this situation.
- [08:37]
Podcast Host - Interviewer
Yeah. And I think we bristle at that. But one of the things that you talk about, and you know, it's in this, in these books. There's several books I have extreme ownership, and I also have one called Discipline Equals Freedom. But there's more than these. It says when you real, you know the concept of when you realize you are the problem, which nobody wants to be the problem, but that this is actually a gift because now you get to be the solution. So one of the stories that was told in here was about a thing called a blue on blue. So I learned new things. Can you explain what a blue on blue is? And then this is one of the stories that Jocko told, and he took extreme ownership. He said, this is completely my responsibility. And if I even lose My job, I am still going to take responsibility.
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Jamie Cochran - COO of Echelon Front
Yeah. So fun fact too. That story was not in the original manuscript and. And yet it ended up becoming the anchor to the entire book. And the reason it wasn't in the book is because what a blue on blue is, and I'm not military, but I, from my colleagues and my husband, it's essentially friendly fire. And it's considered a fratricide in the military. It is like the big black mark on your career. And Jocko as a task unit commander of Task Unit Bruiser in this, what's known as the Battle of Ramadi, they had a blue on blue incident, which is again, a terrible, terrible thing. Even to the point that even years later, Jocko putting this down in this book had that hesitation of like, man, this is considered the ultimate sin. And in the military, and now I'm going to put it out to the entire world. But at the time in the military, and I've had the honor of getting to know and meet a lot of the people that were in Tuscan Abruser and they will talk about that incident as being a turning point in their perspective of what leadership looks like and in their respect for Jocko, that increased significantly when he stood up and he took ownership of this problem. And the reality was he wasn't there. He wasn't on the ground. He was in his command post. But when he looked at the situation, what he realized is that as the leader of this task unit, this incident, whether he was there or not is his fault. He trains the people, he ensures that they understand the rules. He makes sure that he puts them in a spot to be successful. And if these things didn't happen and it led to this terrible incident, it's on him as a leader. And so he stood up in that meeting, he took ownership of it, and it was a game changer in that moment. And where I think in any other scenario he would have been fired, he actually had an opportunity to gain some respect even in a very difficult situation. And then it obviously ended up becoming the anchor of the book of showing even in the worst of scenarios, we as leaders can still take ownership and we should take ownership. It's the answer to helping us solve.
- [11:13]
Podcast Host - Interviewer
Was such an interesting story to read about because as an outside with an outside perspective, there's so many moving parts and there's so many unknowns and there's so many things about a situation that you can't ever control. So it would be so easy to blame this or blame that or this thing happened and I wasn't expecting. And what he says is total responsibility for failure is a difficult thing to accept. But the fact that he steps out and takes. Takes the responsibility in that situation, you see then how you really get the sense on how if you're blaming that, you're never going to grow because you're never going to then look back and say, what could we have done better? You're just going to blame all the circumstances. Now then he said that. And you talk about this too. It trickles down. Because if you're the leader and you're blaming all the circumstances, well, what are the people under you going to do?
- [12:03]
Jamie Cochran - COO of Echelon Front
And that's what happened in the room. He took ownership. And what happened is by him taking ownership and him taking the blame as the leader, it paved the way for other people to step up and say, hey, listen, Jocko, I gotta take ownership of my piece of this problem. And so together in that room, they found a solution. The alternative is the leader stands up and says, hey, this wasn't my fault. He points fingers, he casts blame on the team. What do they do? They get defensive. And now the problem we're trying to solve does not get solved because now everyone's just pointing fingers and casting blame, and we're not moving towards a solution. But when he said, hey, I'm going to take extreme ownership of this, he paved the way for the people around him to step up and take ownership of their piece of that problem, too. And together they came up with a solution to ensure this would never happen again. And it didn't. So they solved that problem in that instance.
- [12:53]
Podcast Host - Interviewer
Yeah, it's huge. And you can see the ramifications. And in that part of the book where they talk to the business leader, the business leader is like, no way. He's like, no way am I going to take the blame. It's going to make me look bad. But you really can see the inner working here of if you're constantly, I have this outward focus, you're never going to change it. You're never going to actually really dive deep into what could be different. And this says, when a bad SEAL leader walked into a debrief and blamed everyone else, that attitude was plucked up by subordinates and team members who then followed suit. And then the whole team is a mess. There was another really interesting story in the book about these boat crews. So it's really cool, like at the very beginning when it's like, you know, you don't necessarily think to take parenting advice from military leaders, right? Jamie? It's like, you, I'm gonna talk to this parenting guru, but then you pick this book up and you're like, well, of course they have been, you know, my guy got my toddler screaming. Or I'm, you know, dealing with whatever. I'm like, these people have been in the harshest of conditions under the most stress ever possible. That's who I want to learn how to become a better parent from. So not only are they in combat, but they. And they've done their own training, but they also lead trainings. So there was a story about these boat crews that are part of the SEAL training. And one of the boat crews is constantly winning, and so. And one of the boat crews is constantly losing. So in the book, this is like Boat two. I mean, they are just out in front. They're, you know, they're not winning prizes, but they might get, like, five minutes of rest or something. And boat six is always behind, and boat six is blaming. They're like, well, boat two has a better leader. So in the book, they swap the leaders. This is a great story, and I know it's not your book, so I don't want to put you on the spot, but do they talk about this one often? And what happens?
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Jamie Cochran - COO of Echelon Front
This is a chapter on no bad teams, only bad leaders. And the idea is the leader really dictates the outcome of the team, and we have a lot of impact. As a leader and going back to your audience, you're a leader in your home, as a mom, you're a leader, and you can help dictate the outcome. And so the idea is that they switch the boat crew leaders. And what would you think happened? All of a sudd that the good boat leader moves to the boat six, and now boat six is crushing it. The reality is, is guess what happened. Both the old boat crew, because of the leadership, even with the new even move, removing the good leader, he had impacted them so well. They continued to succeed and do very well. But the influx of the new leader on the team that had been losing every single evolution, all of a sudden, that new leader showed up and had a dramatic impact on their. Their progress. And they were finishing now going from last place to fin winning a couple of those. And all that was was switching out the leader. And the point of that story is to really show the impact that we have as leaders in our life, whether it's in our families or in our businesses.
- [15:45]
Podcast Host - Interviewer
Yeah, that's right. It's so good. The stories are so good. And you think about in a family, it's like it's easy to blame your kids, it's easy to blame your spouse, it's easy to blame your circumstances, it's easy to blame the school, it's easy to blame a teacher, it's easy to blame a coach. And so this really gives you a different perspective on how to approach your family. So not only can you change as the parent, but also you start to instill these in your kids. So one of the stories that you tell, it's on the website so people can go to. There's a couple websites that people can go to. Echelon Front is one of the websites. But then there's also the Academy. I'll put the link there too. And then Jocko has his own website.
- [16:18]
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- [20:00]
Podcast Host - Interviewer
One of the stories that you tell is about your daughter taking ownership.
- [20:05]
Jamie Cochran - COO of Echelon Front
Yeah, it's been one of the best things about being a part of Extreme a v echelon front for the last 13 years is because I undoubtedly, I am a better mother as a result of applying these principles. And the real privilege in all of this is that I'm getting an opportunity to show and give my children the gift of ownership. They're children, you know, I had two teenagers, two teenage boys and a daughter. They screw up all the time, and I can expect that. But what I'm giving them is an opportunity to take ownership. And I'm hopeful that as they learn that and they see an example of that in me, that as they get older, they're going to be more equipped to take ownership and the real challenges that they're facing. And so one of those opportunities was with my daughter, who, you know, she forged, let's call it some signatures on her reading log for the week I had been out of town. She clearly hadn't done the reading, and feeling a little panicked because she's a straight A kid and she loves the feedback from her teachers, she signed the reading log. And so when I asked her about it, I said, hey, what happened with that reading log? She's like, oh, I turned it in. And you can tell, you know, as a mom, you know, when your kids are kind of fibbing a little. And so immediately I was like, hey, Charlie, we tell the truth, remember? And she immediately started crying and was like, yes, I know. I signed it. I shouldn't have. And she felt the friction that you would expect a child to feel. And in that moment, I realized my option was to solve it for her, maybe sweep it on the rug, tell her it's okay, but not to do it again or to give her an opportunity to learn how to take ownership. So I explained to her she was going to have to go and take ownership of this problem with her teacher, which was terrifying. She was nine at the time. Terrifying. But we role played, just like I would do with a leader if I was coaching them. And we role played what that conversation would sound like, how to take ownership in a meaningful way. We went in that next day and holding back tears, she took ownership with her teacher. She explained that she had lied. And the outcome was so good because the teacher was, you know, told her she was disappointed she had lied, told her the truth, but also then saw that she was making an attempt. And Charlie got to see the outcome of taking ownership was that her teacher was Willing to give her a chance to make it right. And that took her stepping up and saying, hey, I screwed this up. When we left the room was probably the best part because as we were walking down the hall, I said, so how do you feel? And she kind of just had this smile on her face and she said that was easier than I thought it was. And I thought that's ownership. We think it's hard. We think it's easier to the point you made earlier to cast blame and make excuses. That feels easier. But that is only easy in the short term. The long term outcome of that is not easy. It's very difficult because when we cast blame and we push things off onto other people, we basically give up our control to solve it. So I love that she got a little taste of walking out of that room and feeling that was easier than I thought it was. And we've had dozens and dozens of those examples with my children of trying to give them those opportunities to take ownership and hopefully and helping them see the benefit of stepping up when you make a mistake or you do something wrong and saying, hey, I screwed that up and here's what I'm going to do to solve it going forward.
- [23:10]
Podcast Host - Interviewer
It's so good. I mean, you could just see how that would affect their life for the entire part, the entire thing of their life. I read a book recently and it was about how some sometimes we self deceive and you know, like maybe we're like that's not that big of a deal or it didn't really matter, my mom wasn't here, I was busy. Or you know, we have all these things we blame and we self deceive and then that becomes a, like your conscience is like, gets a little messed up, you know, and, and it affects for the long haul of your life. So to have these principles that you're portraying in your home and then also giving your kids opportunity to try them is huge. And there's not that many principles. I mean that's the whole thing. It's like, you know, you pick up the book, you know, I'm like, well, there's six or seven things that I could really focus on here and change things in our family. I love that you brought up the role play because that was one of the things that was in the book and I wouldn't have really considered it. You know, I, I just think we assume people know what they're doing and you know, we just think, oh, a kid can just try this. But one of the things that was talked about Was that they would role play. Okay. They role play in the military. I mean, practice, practice, practice, practice. They practice getting in and out of the vehicle. They practice getting in and out of the helicopter. Because in a high pressure situation when you only have a little bit of time, it's incredibly important that you can do that efficiently. So can you talk about that piece of it? I mean, I think we kind of miss it as parents. Of all the parenting books I've read, I mean, I hardly have ever read anything about. About role playing.
- [24:37]
Jamie Cochran - COO of Echelon Front
Yeah. And really where this falls in is the principle we teach, and you mentioned the book earlier of discipline equals freedom. And what we're trying describe for people is that there is freedom, but only within the discipline parameters that we put into ourselves. And so if we want financial freedom, we have to have financial discipline. If we want more free time, we have to be disciplined in how we manage our time. So that's really what this was about. When they talked about the training and that they would go through all of that was the discipline they were creating so that when they got in a really chaotic environment in combat and war, they could make and have the freedom to make quick and rapid decisions that would lead them towards the goal that they were trying to solve. And role plays a big part of that. You never want to go into a conversation with someone that you haven't practiced because you know what's likely to happen if I go into that conversation. My ego, my emotions, all those things are going to get wrapped up and likely come out in the way that I'm communicating. My message isn't as clear. I'm not as detached as I need to be to have an effective conversation. So really what that role play is, is taking a moment to detach, to figure out how can I take the best ownership in this situation that I can? And then figuring out how what those tripping points might be, where that emot or ego starts to creep in. And the best thing about this is we always recommend getting a trusted agent, someone that you trust to give you that feedback and say, hey, I have to have this conversation. It's going to be a difficult one. Can I role play this with you? And can you give me some feedback on what that sounds like? Now we're going into those conversations prepared and ready, and we can keep our ego and emotions in check. And I think that's a really valuable tool. With kids, I am a big believer in not saving my kids. I'm a big believer in them becoming advocates for themselves, Especially the older the get the more that it's like, hey, I'm not calling your teacher, I'm not talking to your teacher about a situation that you're having in class. What I can do is I can role play with you, what that conversation would look like, and I can help you prepare for that conversation. But ultimately you have to be the one to go and have it. And that really gives them a lot more autonomy in their life and prepares them for the world where they're going to have to go out, out and have these conversations and be an advocate for themselves. So roleplay can be a really valuable tool for leaders in business, certainly, but also at home with our families. It's an incredible tool to prepare for those conversations.
- [26:52]
Podcast Host - Interviewer
And just think about it. This is what they're doing. This is what the seals are doing. They are practicing. They. It says rehearsals are absolutely critical for steel performance on the battlefield. And then further on, you have to have practice having hard conversations. Everyone can hear that. This is like, so applicable for your family, for your family, for the growth of your kids and for, for the, you know, the success of your family unit as a whole. If you take ownership, there's a lot of things that can go wrong, but if you take ownership, then you're going to be in the mindset of how can we find the solution to what's going on? So one of the other concepts that I think is also super applicable is simplifying. Simplify. So you had an article on the website about simplification about your dad. And then also in the book, it talks about out that, you know, it's gotta. It's gotta be simple so that people can actually do the things that are expected of them. Would you tell the story about your dad? He stopped drink, prioritizing, drinking after work.
- [27:54]
Jamie Cochran - COO of Echelon Front
Yeah. You know, that was something that I really didn't realize until I was older, but I remember like a shift in our family. And to be very clear, my dad was not an alcoholic. He was not coming home and we didn't have issues per se. But I remember later in life I started, I convinced my dad to train for a marathon, which was amazing because I got all this time with him training. We would go for a couple hours a week running. And so I get this time to just talk with him. And in one of those runs, we were talking about just growing up and so forth, and he mentioned to me, and I told him, I said, yeah, remember a shift where you stopped drinking? What was that about? And he explained that one day he was coming home from work and all he could think about. My dad worked a very difficult job. He worked at graveyard shifts, very hard scheduled. And he was driving home from work, and all he could think about was, I can't wait to get home and have a beer. I can't wait to just have a drink, put my feet up on the couch and relax. And then he walked in the door, and I came running up to him with some story about school and really excited to see him. And he's like, I had that, like, moment where I just felt like I had been punched in my gut where I feel. Felt like, man, I can't believe that. The whole time I was coming home, all I was thinking about is wanting to have a beer and relax on the couch. Couch. Instead of, I can't wait to get home to see my kids. And that moment of me running up with this fun story really helped him realize that despite it not being this major problem, it was still enough for him to realize that he needed to prioritize the things that mattered the most. And me and my brother and my mom were what mattered the most to him. And so he stopped drinking. I mean, he wasn't. I wouldn't say, like, he's gone his entire life since then sober, but it became a much fewer instance for him. And I think in the last two years, he hasn't had a single drink. It's been very rare that he does that. And all of that was him just deciding in that moment, I'm going to prioritize. And that's the element of simple you're talking about. I'm going to prioritize the thing that actually matters the most to me.
- [29:48]
Podcast Host - Interviewer
I love that story. And, you know, like you said, it wasn't about that. Like, is he not. Is he an alcoholic or not an alcoholic? It's like, what is he prizing? You know, what is the thing that's the most important in that moment? And you wrote, my dad taught me that, that it's never too late to shift your focus. So Jocko says, few things actually matter. Align your energy and your will on the things that do so within the family unit. I thought this was so applicable to parenting. Simplifying as much as possible is crucial to success. Like, I don't think in this day and age, in 2026, anybody would equate parenting with simplicity.
- [30:23]
Podcast Host - Opening/Closing
It's not.
- [30:24]
Podcast Host - Interviewer
Not even in simplicity might not even be the word. Like, just simplifying. It's, like, so convoluted in, like, how many things do we have to do and how many People should I listen to. But simplifying is crucial to success as much as possible.
- [30:38]
Jamie Cochran - COO of Echelon Front
Yeah. And I think what I think where we have to look to simplify is, you're right, the nature of parenting is always going to be chaotic and have a lot of moving parts. So we have to look at the things that we can simplify. Where can we actually simplify some things in our lives? For me, that's clutter, right? I just simplify. If I'm not using something, I'm getting rid of things. So it's not just constantly creating, creating that consistent mess. That's a way to simplify. I also, I'm not a big meal prepper. But what I do like to do to simplify my life, to create an easier path for me to be ready in the week to feed my family, is I create a list on Sunday of what those meals are. And I'm only, I'm only listing out four. Knowing that the other three days in that week are likely to be a little chaotic. We might be grabbing something going from one practice to the other, but I'll come up with four meals I'm going to make that week. So that way when it gets to Tuesday night and it's late and I've had a long day of work, I don't have to think about what I'm making. I've already got the plan, I've already got the ingredients. I already know what I'm doing. I can pull it out and just kind of move through the motions. And then there's a lot of other little ways that we can simplify in our life. And when we talk about simple as a leadership principle, we're talking about one having a simple mission. Simple, clear, concise mission that everyone can align around. Having simple plans and processes which are huge to helping leaders effectively navigate their ever growing to do lists. And the third piece of that is, is simple communications. Simple communications. And the tool we teach is something we call the readback. But that is something that I have instituted with my kids and the simple comms with my kids and then getting that read back and getting some alignment that, hey, we are on the same team, you know what's expected. I've communicated effectively. It just helps us simplify all the chaos in the ways that we can actually take control of that. This doesn't mean that the chaos is gone. But I can control the things. Things that, that, that, that I can. There, there's a piece of that that I can control.
- [32:29]
Podcast Host - Interviewer
It's so good, isn't it? Wild how it's like they're going into these huge businesses and you know, talking about these principles and you're like, wait, I could use that tomorrow in my house. Complexity compounds issues that can spiral out of control into total disaster. And plans and orders must be communicated in a manner that is simple, clear and concise. And you can see that.
- [32:48]
Sponsor Voice
Like what?
- [32:49]
Podcast Host - Interviewer
What should your kids expect? What should they expect for today? We're going to this place. You know what might less is more. I mean, I've read other books, especially if a child has ADHD like that they are wired to argue. And so like the more you talk, you know, the more it can spiral out of control. So it's like, be concise, be clear. These things are super helpful. But I just loved reading the book and then being like, oh, I could use this in my life. I could use this in my life.
- [33:14]
Sponsor Voice
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- [36:41]
Podcast Host - Interviewer
What about women? I mean, this is actually a really cool part of what you do. So you have an actual event that's just for women. It's called the assembly. And then you have a lot of things that are geared for women on the website as well. But I mean, it can be a tricky thing. I actually did just read a book recently where you could tell the woman really had a chip on her shoulder about how she was treated in the workplace. And I'm sure there's truth to it. I'm sure there's some truth, you know, but also you can use these same principles no matter what gender you are and it can help you. So can you talk about women in leadership? You have a, you had an article on the website, you said it's different, but it's the same.
- [37:23]
Jamie Cochran - COO of Echelon Front
Yeah. And listen, the assembly and the women's community that we have at Echelon Front was really an evolution because for many years early on I have, I have oftentimes been the only woman or one of very few women in a male dominated space. That's the same with Echelon Front Front, at least for the forward facing instructors that we have. 17 instructors, only two of us are women. So there's definitely some male domination in that space. But I've never experienced some of what other women have. And so I don't, I want to be sensitive to that. But early on that wasn't something that we were really targeting because the belief was myself and Jocko, hey, the same principles apply. It doesn't matter if you're man or woman. And these same principles that I would teach you to solve the problems you're facing are the same principles regardless what we realized over time. And really as I kind of pushed Jocko on this idea, is he started looking at it when he owns a jujitsu gym and that's a martial art. And what he realized is he's like, oh, there's a reason we have a women's only class. Because it wasn't that the techniques were different or what they were teaching were different, or that the overall lesson was different. It was the barrier to entry for a lot of women. They didn't feel comfortable coming into a space with men and training in this martial art. And so he realized that a lot of gyms will have a women's only class just to create an entry point to get them in the door. And then over time as they got more comfortable, they could go to the regular co ed class and be a part of the broader class. So we started thinking about that at Echelon Front and we realized that there was definitely a barrier to entry. If you looked at our large leadership conferences that we run, two or three of those a year, and 85% of that was men. And so there was definitely a disconnect for women of understanding, hey, these combat leadership principles, yeah, they don't really apply to me. And actually I was laughing earlier because you made the combat, you made the comment about this combat and how it applies to life. And Layfe and Jock would always say, hey, combat is life amplified and intensified. It's the same challenges. And sometimes, I'm telling you, being a mom, it feels like I'm in combat. It feels like I'm in war a little bit. But there was a barrier to entry for women of seeing how these combat leadership principles from Navy SEALs could help them in their lives. And yet the women who were in our community were raving about it and saying that it was helping them in every aspect. And so we needed to find a way to break down that barrier and open the door. So we started just doing monthly webinars, monthly free sessions for women. And this was, that was an idea from a 22 year old intern we had at our company who had this idea of creating a community for women. She just had this vision that was so cool. And so, so we started doing those live sessions and that community grew to a couple thousand people. And then we got, we got even higher. And over time that just translated into like doing it. Should we do a live event? And all of a sudden we ran our first women's assembly. And now we're coming up on our fourth event in 2027.
- [40:15]
Podcast Host - Interviewer
That's so exciting. And there's a lot of events. One of them, there's, I mean, they're sold out. If you, if you're interested in going, you gotta go look now because there's like one coming up in March, that one's already sold out. So lots of different events that people can look at. And I'll make sure, I'll put the links in there. So specific things for women, also for kids. Can you talk about Warrior kid?
- [40:33]
Jamie Cochran - COO of Echelon Front
Yeah. So Jocko, after a couple years at Echelon Front, after the first two books in the Extreme Ownership series came out, he, as a father of four, really saw an avenue for helping young kids learn the principles of extreme ownership and finding an avenue to do that. And at the time you know, and no offense to A Diary of a Wimpy Kid, it's a really funny book, and I think it does a good job capturing sort of the. The awkwardness of middle school.
- [41:00]
Podcast Host - Interviewer
Yeah, it is. It is a really funny book.
- [41:02]
Jamie Cochran - COO of Echelon Front
It's very funny, and there's obviously a time and place for it. But what I found as a mom was because it was written from his own perspective, very rarely did he actually have a solution or was getting, like, to the answer. It was just kind of like, here's the awkwardness and here's the humor around what I'm going through. So as a combat to that a little bit and sort of that. That mindset that was happening at that time, Jocko wrote the Way of the Warrior Kid, and he's written several books in that series since. It's actually coming out next year as a movie with Chris Pratt, which is very exciting. And they just announced that it's going to be launched on November 20th of this year. So he decided to launch what he called Warrior Kid. And it started with the book, and it's really turned into a movement, but it's really about helping children. You know, Mark's an awkward kind of, you know, goofy kid who has a bully he's dealing with, and he's dealing with all these different challenges, and his Uncle Jake comes to live with them for the summer, who's a Navy SEAL and teaches him, essentially, discipline. He teaches him not to be a warrior in that sense, but to be a warrior and like, having an ethos and having a code and having discipline in his life, overcoming his fear, learning to make friends even. Even with who, you know, who seems to be your enemy. And so a lot of the lessons in the book are lessons we teach to leaders, but created in a way that would make sense for kids. So all of my children have gone through the Way of the Warrior, you know, books and series as the original warrior kids. Now they're, you know, almost adults, and we have seen just a massive growth in them and learning how to apply discipline in their life as a result of this book and the messages in it.
- [42:41]
Podcast Host - Interviewer
What a fantastic resource. And even more exciting, if the movie's coming, it's like, well, yeah, go grab the book. So that is a fantastic resource for your family as well. So it's like, you've got the things for women. For women. You've got things for kids. And I love that you talked about it was an intern. She's 22 years old. She's the one who, like, comes up with the idea for webinars, and that is actually one of the topics that gets brought up as well, is leading up the chain of command. So what happens if you're not the leader and you're in a spot that's, you know, kind of tricky. And the example that they give, which I knew nothing about, Jamie, I. Okay, I knew nothing about this. There's paperwork. Like, okay, you think about these seals, you know, it's like everyone watches the movies. And, you know, I've read some different military books, and it's just like, they never talk about the paperwork. You know, I read, like, Jack Cars books, and I'm talking to this guy Brad Thor today. I mean, it's like this military, and the plane goes down, and, you know, like, they're, you know, they're trying to get the secret box that has the AI, you know, the AI system, military system, and they got to save the guy, and you're never like, oh. And then they have to do paperwork. So that was a story that was told in the book, Extreme ownership, that they're annoyed these people are not in the field. And I got to send in seat charts for my tank, you know, who's sitting where, but that this is an opportunity to lead up.
- [43:59]
Sponsor Voice
Yeah.
- [44:00]
Jamie Cochran - COO of Echelon Front
So this idea of leading up the chain, and first of all, everyone is annoyed by paperwork. And yes, Navy SEALs, even Navy SEALs, have mounds and mounds of paperwork. So the idea of leading up the chain of command is this idea that we teach, which is one of our core beliefs, and that is that everyone is a leader. So if you look at an org chart, we have a graphic on one of our slides that shows what you would consider a CEO position. And then it shows the different levels of leadership, but every box just says leader. Because our belief is every single person within an organization at every level is a leader. And in fact, Jocko's definition of a leader was any human being that interacts with other human beings is a leader. So by that mindset, and we really had to focus on. On explaining that to people that we work with, because too often we would go in and people would say, well, I'm not in a traditional leadership position. I don't lead people. So how. How do these leadership principles apply to me? But what's the beauty of it is that you can lead up the chain of command just as you just as much as you can down the chain. And there is opportunities for people on the front lines to lead up the chain of command to their bosses. And the way we do that is the same the in exact principles, we prioritize relationships. We look for ways to cover for our boss. We look for ways to ensure that they have the right information to make decisions at their level. We simplify what we can simplify. We take ownership of those things. We detach from our emotions. We communicate effectively. In all these ways, we can start to build some trust and influence. And the joke that I've made before is, hey, I've always worked for Jocko. He's always been my boss. But if I told Jocko tomorrow, hey, I want you to go on stage wearing an orange shirt, I don't know if he'd do it, but I know for sure he would think about it and he'd ask me questions and he tried to understand my perspective. And all of that took years of me building in that mutual trust, building in that mutual respect to the point now where I can influence my boss 100%. I know that. I know that he's open to listening to what I have to say. And that's taken a lot of time to build. And so I think people underestimate, underestimate their ability sometimes to lead up the chain. And we, We. We dismantle that the second we say, oh, my boss is, you know, unwavering, or my boss is an egomaniac, or my boss will never listen to me. And I think that the. We shortchange ourselves, there's off. There's often a lot more opportunities than we might give ourselves credit for to lead up the chain of command and influence even our leadership or our bosses.
- [46:25]
Podcast Host - Interviewer
That's so good, Jamie. I, you know, I loved it in the book where it was like, you got a bad boss, great. You got a lot of opportunity. And there was a lot of these reframes in there. Like, there was one where they had to fight with these Israeli soldiers, I think it was. And it was like, well, they're not trained and they don't have the same gear and, you know, we don't know them. We don't have the same level of trust. But then it was like, oh, well, in this case, they actually there. They know the good guys from the bad. They can discern the differences in mannerisms and dress and accents and. And know, you know, different types of things that, that we would. They were, they were Iraqi soldiers is.
- [47:00]
Sponsor Voice
So they're.
- [47:01]
Podcast Host - Interviewer
They're fighting with Iraqi soldiers and, and they were annoyed about it at the beginning because they're like, they're going to pull us down. They don't have the same level of training and commitment. And level of relationship. But then they said they proved useful in ways they hadn't anticipated because of all these things that they, that they knew that because they were more local. So in a lot of the situations, there are these reframes. It's like, are you the problem? Great, because you can be the solution. You know, you have a bad boss. Great. You can lead up. You know, you have these things that are not going how you want. Look for the silver lining. Basically.
- [47:36]
Jamie Cochran - COO of Echelon Front
Yeah. And in that story you're describing, that's a perfect example of leading up and down the chain of command. Because what they were asked to do was to take one Iraqi soldier out with every one seal. So that was a one to one ratio. That was what their leadership told them. So Jocko was being given that information from his commander. And so he went and led up the chain. And what he did was he provided the information. Hey, if we do this, here's a potential ramification. Here's where it puts us in a bad spot and it doesn't enable us to do this. And what he did was he offered an alternate solution which was one Iraqi soldier for every seven SEALs so they could still be effective in what they wanted to do. That solved the problem with his leadership. And then down the chain, what did he have to do with his seals? He had to explain the value of having those Iraqi soldiers be there with them and training alongside them and supporting them in that mission. And so that was a good example of being in the middle there. His ability to lead up and down the chain of command was incredible.
- [48:30]
Podcast Host - Interviewer
Yeah. Fantastic examples in the book. And you know, it's like they're annoyed. They're annoyed about the things that they're told to do. And they say things like, well, they should just come out here. Then, you know, you're, you're getting directives from people who are in air conditioned offices. That's what Jack Carr writes about. You're like, they're in air conditioned offices in Washington D.C. telling me what to do. I'm out out here. But he changes his perspective and he says, if they have questions, it is our fault for not properly communicating the information they need. We have to lead them. From that day forward, we began a campaign of leading up the chain of command. We provided extremely detailed mission planning documents and post operational reports. One of the most important jobs of any leader is to support your own boss. It's good. It's good, you know, and you can see how they're grappling with it. The book is fantastic. It's like a total page turner. Let's talk about one more that really relates to parenting, which is prioritize and execute. And I want to really relate this to your job here starting in 2014. One of the things that you talked about was that, you know, you join this company and you're the first employee and you say at the beginning it wasn't what it, what it is today, like not even remotely. You're, you're going to get this kind of small part time role. And then you said, I took ownership of everything within my control. I didn't just complete tasks, I anticipated needs. I solved problems before they became problems. I made it my mission to, to ensure that my leaders and teammates had the support they needed to execute at a high level. I asked myself, how can I add value? What can I do to contribute to this mission? Obviously these are questions that if your child asked them, especially heading into adulthood,
- [50:07]
Sponsor Voice
it would change their whole life.
- [50:08]
Podcast Host - Interviewer
See, he'll bloom, talks about it. He said, if you can see needs and then fill them, you'll never be wanting for a job. But you know, I think the two, two big parts is do you see the need needs? Are you aware? And also are you going to choose to try and fill them? And this is this prioritize and execute. It helps parents, but it also is a great skill for kids to have too.
- [50:30]
Sponsor Voice
Yeah.
- [50:30]
Jamie Cochran - COO of Echelon Front
And really what this is about is you, you said it perfectly. See a need, fill a need. That's always been something that I have strived to do. And listen, when I joined us on front, it was several steps backwards in my career progress. I went from leading a team, managing a board of 60 students, students having this career that I thought that I would end up retiring in one day in higher education. And now I'm at a startup company and it's just me and I'm 10 hours a week and it's, you know, admin at best. I'm booking, travel, managing some calendars. But what I saw was an opportunity and I chose to look at that as, okay, cool, this is a couple steps backwards. This isn't exactly what I thought I'd be doing at this stage in my career, but I see an opportunity and I realized that I could either take ownership of that, that opportunity and do everything I could to help build this program out and this company and support Leif and Jocko, or I could just do what I was being asked to do and kind of see what happened. And so I realized that I had a lot more control in that situation. And the Beauty of that is that I don't know that Leif and Jocko at the time had a real clear vision of exactly what they needed me to do. So by me coming to them and saying, hey, would it be helpful if I took this off your plate? Or hey, I saw that you had this set up and I went ahead and I put together a draft for you. Take a look at that. One of my favorite stories is we went to a meeting with our publisher before the book came out and I had come ready with this plan for social media. And Jocko in that meeting was kind of like, no, we don't want social media, right? Like it's crazy to think about now because he's such like a social media person. Like he's a well known face in that space. But at the time that was very uncomfortable for him. He didn't like the idea of like having a Facebook page and an Instagram page and so forth. And he basically said, no, we're not going to do social media. We're not going to play that game game. And what did I do? I went back, I ended up talking to leave. I'm like, hey, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to just go ahead and get your guys's handles now so that if he ever changes his mind, we've got him. And so we went. And that was some good advice too from Leif's wife, Jenna Babin, who runs an amazing podcast. You guys should all check it out. Smarter news. But what was awesome is like together we kind of created this plan and I went out and I purchased or not purchased, I saved, set up, you know, his Instagram, his, his, that wasn't tick tock at the time, Twitter, all these different things that we could get to get their handles. And it was about a month later he was on the Tim Ferriss podcast and he called me and he's like, hey, Tim Ferriss is like posted something on Twitter. And I'm like, yep, here's your Twitter login. Let me get you set up. Walked him through his first tweet. I ended up calling him back and was like, hey, no, no, no, no, you, you did the hashtag wrong. Go back and delete it. So we redeemed. Did it. I woke up the next morning and this guy had, had had multiple conversations, was, you know, tweeting a bunch. And he, from that point on, no one's ever touched his Instagram or his social media. He has done it himself. But all of a sudden he had what he needed to succeed. And I could have just taken that insight as from him as, hey, we're not doing this and said, cool, I'm not going to do it. But instead I had the vision of, hey, he might need this at some point and what's the harm of having it now if he never uses it? Great, it'll just sit here. And I, we own it. But ultimately, when we needed it, it was there and available. So I think that's an example of looking for a need and filling it. And sometimes that means I wasn't going behind his back. I simply was doing something and having it on the side. On the side, ready if he needed to launch that. And throughout my career at Echelon Front and now that I have a team of people, when they step up and they solve things for me before I have to solve them, it creates so much strength in our relationship and they become my go to for those things. I so I think young leaders out there need to be looking and I teach my kids this too at home. Look around, see a need, fill a need. You want to be a good roommate, you want to be a good spouse to someone? Someday you have to learn the skill of looking around and saying, hey, this isn't my thing, this isn't my mess, but I'm going to take responsibility of this. I'm going to do something for the sake of our family, for someone else. And I think if you do that and you create a mindset around that, you can really excel in whatever you're trying to excel.
- [54:28]
Podcast Host - Interviewer
Excellent, Jamie. Wow. And now he has 3.1 million followers on Instagram.
- [54:35]
Jamie Cochran - COO of Echelon Front
Don't worry, I remind him of that all the time.
- [54:39]
Podcast Host - Interviewer
You said that people ask often and this relates to what we're talking about. They say, why am I not getting promoted? And there's an article on your website where you're talking about that question. You say it's a question you hear often, why am I not getting promoted? And you say the better question to ask is, what am I doing to earn earn it. You say promotions do not come. I mean, you're the one to write this, right? You're like, I started basically as a 10 hour admin and now I'm the COO. Promotions don't come because of tenure. They don't come because you show up every day and do what's asked of you. They come when you make yourself indispensable, when you take ownership of your role, contribute at a higher level, and focus on impact over recognition. And then you wrote, I Know this firsthand from an admin assistant. And this is not even that long of a time period. So this is an incredible story that you have that really highlights, highlight so many of these principles. I'd love to wrap it up with this dichotomy piece. This is actually one of my favorite parts of the book. So the book is called Extreme Ownership, How Navy Seals Lead and Win. It will help you with your family. And then I also have a book, Discipline Equals Freedom. But there's another book called the dicap, the Dichotomy of Leadership. This is about balancing the challenges of extreme ownership. To lead. And my thing gets cut off here. To lead and something else.
- [55:55]
Jamie Cochran - COO of Echelon Front
To lead probably is what we would say there.
- [55:59]
Podcast Host - Interviewer
That's what I would have assumed it was, is when lead and win.
- [56:01]
Sponsor Voice
Okay.
- [56:01]
Podcast Host - Interviewer
So it was interesting because there are these leadership fine lines. You know, you talk in the book about self awareness. That's a big piece of it. A lot about relationships. So it was like, okay, there are all of these dichotomies that you must
- [56:15]
Sponsor Voice
be ready to follow.
- [56:16]
Podcast Host - Interviewer
Even though you're a leader. You know, you have to be aggressive, but you can't be overbearing. You have to be calm, but you can't be robotic. So there's a of, lot, lot of nuance here. How do you help people to. Because obviously, it's like you're training teams, you're training individuals, you're training at these big events, you're training, you know, in the corporate setting. And there's a lot of courses that people can take. It's like, how do you help people learn to deal with all. There's a lot of nuance there.
- [56:43]
Jamie Cochran - COO of Echelon Front
Yeah. The second book, Dichotomy, came after Extreme Ownership because they realized that the first book, the fatal mistake that they made was using the word extreme, even though that's what we believe it is. Extreme. Extreme ownership. But they realized that what happened for people is that they were taking those principles to the extreme. We say cover move, which is build and maintain strong relationships. You know, put the team above yourself. And people were taking that to the extreme. They were taking those relationships so far that they were putting so much effort into the team that they were neglecting their own needs. Right. That's. We can't have that. We need balance. You can simplify things so much that. To the extreme that you are missing out on proper contingency plans and some of the complexity you need to know and have when you're putting processes in place, you can detach so much from your emotions. Which is what we teach with, prioritize and execute to the extreme that you are unemotional and you're incapable of being empathetic or you don't allow yourself to recognize the positive signals that your emotions sometimes give to you. So I think in that situation, dichotomy was the second in that book to say, say, hey, everything we teach we believe in, but in everything we teach there's balance that has to be had. There has to be this balance between these two extremes that we have. And so I think it's just recognizing in our life what are the things that are working, what are the things that aren't, and how can we strike a little bit better of a balance. We have a balance assessment we do with leaders. And the great thing about it is it's helping to identify where you're out of balance, where you are out of balance as it relates to the principles we teach. And what I always tell leaders is, hey, you're going to take this right now and it's going to say you're out of balance in these areas and that you need to get closer to the middle. And then if you take it in six months from now, you're going to be out of balance in other areas because just when you get centered in something, something else kind of goes to the wayside. So the self awareness you're talking about is critical of recognizing. How do I take an honest self assessment of myself and recognize where I am out of balance to help me get closer to the middle? Not perfect. It's. Nothing's ever perfect. Nothing's ever perfectly balanced. But where can I shift my perspective to get a little closer to the middle of what we're talking about?
- [58:52]
Podcast Host - Interviewer
It's good, I mean, because you go, I was like, so interesting. It's like you have to be brave, but not foolhardy. You have to have a competitive spirit, but you got to be a gracious loser. You have to be attentive to details, but you can't be obsessed with them. I mean, it was like one after the next. I was like, yeah, these are all the, like, you know, the little nuances that you learn over life. And one of the things, there's also in here. How do you, how do you improve your relationships? That's in here. Imposter syndrome is in here. Don't do a leadership comb over in relationships. Like you got to be a chess player. So I mean, this is obviously a critical time, especially because we're so heavy on screens that we're losing a lot of these relationship signals. So there's information. The book Extreme Ownership on how to build your relationships. You know, even with the extreme ownership, there was an example of like, right? So this is like, the word extreme is like, you know this, you take ownership of your life, but don't lie. Like, don't take ownership. If someone's done something that that's like illegal, you're like, you're not going to step in, in that point and say, I did that. You know, you're not going to take ownership. So there's always just like these little nuances that you have to pay attention to. So I love that. That's a part of the book too, really, that what you offer for leaders of all types, which is everyone. I'm going to read it as we're wrapping up. Here At Echelon Front, we believe in a key principle. Everyone is a leader. Whether you are a person, parent, a frontline individual, contributor, middle manager, entrepreneur or CEO, you are a leader. We've helped startups, private businesses and publicly traded companies navigate their unique struggles, trials and objectives. Because the principles work no matter who you are. Parent, business owner, child. Our leadership development and training services are for everyone, including you. Jamie, this has been such an honor to get a chance to talk with you. Can you tell people Echelon Front, we kind of. We kind of covered. Covered it, but I know that you'd like. This is the premier leadership development company. No matter the problem, leadership is the solution, what you offer and where people can find it.
- [60:47]
Jamie Cochran - COO of Echelon Front
Yeah. Echelonfront.com is the best place to find all the different things that we offer, including the women's assembly and the muster leadership conferences that we run, the field training exercises that we do, and all the training that we do for small and large companies across the globe, as well as a bunch of cool insights and stuff from myself and a bunch of my colleagues who are incredible individuals and leadership instructors with their own unique perspectives. And what I'll just anchor on is that piece that you just said. Our core belief at Echelon Front, of all the things that we believe, it's that leadership is the solution and that it is the. It will determine whether you win or succeed in a scenario. And so as we think about the problems we're facing in any capacity in our lives, they're leadership problems. And if we can look at them through that lens, we can apply the principles of extreme ownership, the leadership we need to solve those problems at any level.
- [61:35]
Podcast Host - Interviewer
So good. My husband listened to the audiobook and loved it. So whatever option you choose. And there are a lot of books, but I just think, think if you're a parent, extreme ownership is going to give you a really different type of lens to look at parenting and to look at how to lead your family. Jamie, we always end our show with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside?
- [61:55]
Jamie Cochran - COO of Echelon Front
You know what? Growing up, I had the. In fact, I will tell you, my dad still has the painting of it because when I was in sixth grade, I was asked to paint my favorite childhood experience. And I painted a picture of my dad and I holding hands in this tunnel because we used to go camping every summer. It was the highlight of my summer. And I have a picture of my dad holding a hand in my favorite place called Rife Lake in Washington. And growing up camping with my dad, being outside, it was the best. And so those are definitely my favorite childhood memories.
- [62:25]
Podcast Host - Interviewer
And like a tradition. Gosh, that's such a cool thing. Like the things that sometimes, if you do them year over year, do every summer or whatever. I love that. Jamie, you are such an inspiration. Inspiration, such an inspiration. And what you offer is so incredible at Echelon Front for any type of person. It's really going to help your family. Thank you so much for taking the
- [62:44]
Sponsor Voice
time to be here.
- [62:45]
Jamie Cochran - COO of Echelon Front
Thank you so much. I had a great time.
- [62:49]
Podcast Host - Opening/Closing
Get outside Open your eyes Feel that sunshine kissing your skin Throw your worries out to the wind Climb some trees Skin your knees Feel that grass on your feet again get out there and
- [63:07]
Podcast Host - Interviewer
take it in
- [63:11]
Jamie Cochran - COO of Echelon Front
oh,
- [63:13]
Podcast Host - Opening/Closing
it's a beautiful world Ain't nothing on the screen that's ever gonna beat this.
- [63:25]
Sponsor Voice
That's a beautiful world
- [63:29]
Podcast Host - Opening/Closing
and I just want to share with I just want to share with you this beautiful world Such a beautiful world
- [63:40]
Sponsor Voice
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