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The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 718: Digging Up the Details | Amanda Hope Haley, Stones That Speak
00:56:43
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- [00:00]
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- [00:28]
Amanda Hope Haley
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Jenny Ert
Welcome, welcome, welcome to the Thousand Hours Outside podcast. My name is Jenny Ert. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside. And today we have a real life archaeologist, Amanda Hope Haley. Welcome.
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Amanda Hope Haley
Thank you, thank you for being here. This will be a fun one.
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Jenny Ert
Yes. Okay. So never spoken to an archaeologist ever in my life. Amanda, can you tell the listeners how you got interested in this field? You also an astronomy lover? Like you are a nature lover? Love being outside. How does someone become an archaeologist?
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Amanda Hope Haley
Wow. Very circuitous method for me, I would say to begin with, at least in Tennessee, and I think this is true nationwide. In public schools, the only ancient history that is taught is during the sixth grade. And that was even true way back when, even when I was in the sixth grade. So I actually have this photograph of me that a teacher took of me doing my first dig. Like, she set up little boxes for us and put layers in there. And so in sixth grade, I was first introduced to it and I enjoyed it. It was fun. We read a book called Motel of Mysteries. And it's a, it's a funny. It's a funny satirical type book. And it's by a man named David McCauley who is really an artist. And he imagined that, like, I think like in the year 3000 or something, archaeologists discover ancient America and they're uncover. Anyway, they uncover a motel. And it's just really funny because like, everything in the motel, they say, you know, like, one thing in there is like, there's a toilet seat, right? And they decide that this must have been some sort of very impressive, like, crown for burying the queen who was found there. Like, it's just, it's this funny spin on it. And I loved it so much in sixth grade. This was long before Amazon or anything like that. But like, we went to a brick and mortar bookstore that no longer exists and ordered it. And I had to wait like a month for it to come in. And I still have that book and I even gave a copy of it to my grandson. So my godson. So I don't have grandsons. Godson's. So we. Anyway, that. That was kind of it. It was sixth grade. It was a blip. I loved it. And I've always been interested just in history. My dad loves it. My dad really wanted to be a history teacher, although he ended up actually dealing with books himself. But I got to college and I went to a place called Rhodes College, which is. It's a Presbyterian school in Memphis, Tennessee. And we were required to take religion courses. Everybody had to take four semesters. And that's where first took a course in biblical archeology. And I fell in love with it. And the next summer I had a scholarship, a full scholarship to go dig. Sadly, that's when the second intifada was happening in Israel. So I ended up not going then. But my professors at Rhodes were themselves Harvard graduates, and they encouraged me to pursue it and wrote me recommendations. And so I ended up going to Harvard Divinity School, where I got a master's degree in Hebrew Scripture and interpretation, which is a really big mouthful, but practically spe. It was biblical archeology. I studied under a man named Larry Steger, who was really into the Philistine side of Ashkelon that is 10 km north of Gaza City. And so that is where I actually went on my first dig in 2004. And so from there, I mean, I just. I stayed in the field, I studied it. And eventually, as I started working in Christian publishing after I was out of school, I really started noticing how archeology can be really helpful for help us understanding. Help us to understand scripture better. Because sometimes what comes out of the ground maybe disagrees with some of the images that we have in our head and some of the ways we envision. We imagine the ancient world, say, based on Sunday school books or, you know, or the felt boards that we use as kids.
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Jenny Ert
The flannel stuff.
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Amanda Hope Haley
Yeah. Or honestly, even going to like Renaissance art, the way that a lot of things are depicted, you know, Renaissance art, a lot of those images they show us medieval Italy, they don't look anything like the ancient world did. And so once I sort of realized that that's sort of where my. My writing has sort of taken hold and helping people understand archaeology a little bit better so that they can peel away those really false, flawed, fictional, artistic images that we have of the ancient world and actually learn what it really did look like.
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Jenny Ert
I love this. You know, you think about kids, and I think that every child has this natural instinct and drive to dig. Like, they want to dig, you know, and they lose it over time. But like, our youngest Is nine. She wants to dig it. She's constantly asking to dig holes. Can we bury this? Can we see what we can find? You know, and that happens all the way, I think, through the chat, you know, early childhood years. And even my friend Aaron, she was saying her kids were like, can we dig a pond? You know, and they. And they dug and they put the plastic down. So there is this, I don't know, something inside of you that wants to be like, what's under there? I'm gonna bury a time capsule. I just read this book about C. S Lewis, about how when, like, his father finally passed away because his mom passed away when he was a kid, his dad passed away and then. All right, sorry, I've got a cough. Drop him.
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Amanda Hope Haley
It's that time of year. I've got my coffee going, I've got tea, the whole thing, which I just sloshed.
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Jenny Ert
Oh, no. So they go back to. To the. The home they grew up in, and they're trying to figure out what to do with all the stuff. And so they, like, made these piles of, like, giveaway keep, whatever. And then they went up into the attic, which is where they'd, like, spent a lot of time playing and imagining. And they had this whole trunk of toys and they buried it. They buried it in the yard. So there is some sort of, like, human instinct to that, wants to dig. And I love that you have continued that, like, what a cool thing to go and try and find stuff. So then you have these fantastic books. The kids books are really cool. Copper finds a scroll. It's a little dog. Copper finds a manger. You know, what was the manger really like? So this helps you to start to better understand your faith. So I want to ask you a couple questions. These are the ones that people ask a lot.
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Podcast Sponsor/Advertiser
Okay.
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Jenny Ert
They find out that you're a biblical archaeologist. Have they found Noah's Ark? No,
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Amanda Hope Haley
absolutely not. And I will say they probably never will for lots of reasons. Honestly, just geologically speaking, what would have to happen for something to last that long? You know, a piece of wood, under the types of conditions that would be at the top of a mountain, no, it's not going to happen. But honestly, more fundamentally than that, when you consider. When you consider what happened, you know, to Noah, they land, they come out, they've got all these animals. Some of them are wild animals who, you know, escape and go find new homes for themselves. A lot of them are domesticated animals that would need pens and shelters and taken care of. The humans needed shelter. They needed Wood to burn, you know, all of this kind of stuff. But just thinking about it, very, very practically, why on earth would Noah or any of his descendants have consciously chosen not to reuse it? Yes, they spent. They spent hundreds of years, right? According to the narrative, they spent hundreds of years taking this wood, honing this wood, putting this thing together. Why on earth would they leave it intact when it could have been used to help rebuild civilization? And so, you know, every few years, it pops back up. There's this one site, it's not even. It's near Mount Ararat, that every. I'm gonna say 30 or 40 years pops back up, and everyone's like, this geological landscape look like there could have been a boat here. And it's like, no, that's not what's happening there. And I'm not a geologist. The geologists can explain all of that. But, you know, also, there's just these very fundamental things. Like, we don't actually know what a cubit was like when it comes to lengths and weights and all that. We have a general idea of like, a qubit is like an arm's breadth. Well, whose arm are we talking about here? You know, you can't. You cannot get specific. Specific with those kinds of numbers when it comes to what is being described in Genesis or really in the. The entire Old Testament, that that's just not going to happen. But for me, it's more the practical thing also. Mount Ararat being identified with the mountain that it is today, that. That designation that. Oh, that must be a Mount Arat, only happened a few hundred years ago. It's not like this is some sort of historic memory that from the time of Genesis, that was Mount Ararat. You know, that's something that somebody decided thousands of years later. So we don't even know where we should be looking necessarily, which is why, you know, people get on this kind of thing. People want to find, I think, the shiny objects of the Bible, the Ark of the Covenant, or Noah's. Yeah, Noah's Ark or the cup of Christ or the true Cross, you know, all of these, like, artifacts and items that we really, really want to find. And when you get fixated on that one thing, I think sometimes objectivity sort of goes out the window a little bit. And you can find stories about, like, there's a guy who insists he has Noah's Ark in Pennsylvania. Of course not. You know, so it's. Yeah, no, it has not been found. I. You know what? If it ever is found, I will go check it out. Just like Everybody else in the rest of the world, of course I will. But it's. No, it's not there. And I would even say that is not even necessary, you know, for. For people who believe in scripture and believe in the Bible. Finding those items really would not help us deepen our faiths or anything like that, because that is just. It's an oddity from Scripture. It really won't help us understand scripture any better, except that maybe we would understand lengths a little bit better. But as. As far as the function of Scripture in connecting us with God, that it's really not necessary for us to have those physical items, it's almost even a little bit contrary to faith.
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Jenny Ert
Sure, sure. It's a really interesting book. It's called Stones Still Speak. And I don't even know if I already said that. You wrote a book? I think I just went off on the archaeology thing. You have a new book. You have a new book. It's called Stones Still Speak. It's beautiful how biblical archaeology illuminates the stories you thought you knew. And there were so many things in here that I was like, I've never considered that. And, you know, when you think about an ark made out of wood, and you're like, oh, if I just drive around cornfields in America, you see all sorts of barns that are falling down. Like, they've been there for 56, 70 years or whatever. They're already coming apart, you know, and we were actually somewhere recently. Whereas, like, we drove in one day and there was a barn, and we drove out the next day and it had already collapsed. Like, you know, it was on the verge, obviously. And I never would have thought that, of course they're going to use all of those natural resources. Like, if everything is like springtime, muddy, wet, because it's been underwater for 40, however long, you would know how long it only rained for 40 days, however long.
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Podcast Sponsor/Advertiser
It was all underwater.
- [11:54]
Jenny Ert
Yeah, but it's all underwater for that time. It's. Everything's going to be wet. You're not gonna be able to find dry wood. So anyway, just a lot of things I would have never considered. Another one that you talked about, this is kind of just like the title of the book was, this Habit of Erecting Stones and like these. And I don't know, like, you read the Bible and you're like, they made a stack of stones here. You're like, okay, whatever. But you're like, no, these are like central pieces that would inspire conversation. People would talk about it. It's clearly man made in A time of the world where there was less man made things. So can you talk about that practice of erecting these stone, you know, not sculpture, but like stone stacks.
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Amanda Hope Haley
So they could be used for lots of reasons. And there's two different types of stone monuments that are described in, in the Old Testament or the Hebrew Bible, and that is standing stones. Think like Stonehenge or, or stacked stones, which is where I mean, stacked stones, it. It, you know, goes for itself. And so there's two different types that are out there, and they often would be used in different ways, but they were typically. They were typically memorials. So when Rachel dies, you have. You have her husband going, and he sets up stacked stones in that location. That's one example. Or when Esau and Jacob, you know, finally, after all of their years of strife, they get back together, they have this sort of peace conference and decide, you know, what, this land over here is going to be mine, that land over there is going to be yours. They erect some standing stones there. And so the stones have lots of purposes. And in that particular instance, it's. It's a. It's a signpost. It's a marker, you know, of, you know, hey, this is. This is a boundary. This is the border between our lands. It is also a memorial to the conversation that they had there, you know, so that every time people can go, you know, when people walk by there for a while, as long as that is in memory, they go like, okay, hey, this is where our ancestors got together and had this, dare we say, peace summit, you know, or whatever, that kind of thing. And one thing that I didn't fully realize, actually, until I was writing the book is this. This happened in places other than the ancient Near East. This happened all over the world. And you look at, say, Stonehenge, and according to the archaeologists who do the do work in Britain, all of that was. All that work began around the time of Abraham. So I mean, when Abraham is coming through. So this is before Jacob and Esau erect their standing stones. You already have it happening over there. Canada has examples of. In fact, I think the Inuk shook that to me, is almost sort of what I first imagine anytime I think of stacked stones. If you ever go into Canada, especially around the coastal regions, you'll see where people really, more as artwork today, will take native stones and they'll stack them up and make them look like humans maybe or something like that, just stacking these really pretty smooth stones. But when you go back to the first peoples of Canada, they did it again as signposts and the shapes would have meaning so that people moving through. They're going through their nomadic lands, they would see a certain shape and go, okay, this must be a great place for hunting. Or don't go here. There's a lot of predators. You know, they would know how to interpret those things. And so stones had meaning since before humans were able to do. Were really able even to hone them. Eventually we get tools, and of course, you can use. Even prior to the invention of bronze and irons and those kinds of tools, humans did figure out, well, we can use a harder stone to chip into a softer stone and, you know, start to move it that way, but it's that old. But then once language starts to develop, you see, especially in like. Like, let's say Sumerian culture or Egyptian culture, you see people starting to carve language and stories into stone. And thank goodness they did, because we still have that today. Archaeologists will call that particular type of stone a stela, plural stele. That kind of thing. We have that. And that really translates honestly into our own practices today of. Of putting up tombstones and the way we carve in the memory of our ancestors. We put their names there, we put dates, we put whatever memory we want to have of those people, and they stand and, you know, depending on the type of stone, hopefully that is going to be there forever. And sometimes we have to preserve the area, and sometimes. This is just a funny side note. I don't think I've ever told anyone this before, but when I was growing up, where I. Where I grew up, it was actually in a neighborhood. But. But the neighborhood used to be a large farm, and the original family cemetery from the 1700s was in my backyard. So I literally grew up with a cemetery in my backyard, which is a very strange thing, but I can tell you there were. There were three tombstones that were there. One was long and flat, and then there were two standing stones that had been. We never knew what they were there. They, over time, had worn down to a place where you couldn't read anything. The flat stone, when we first moved there, you could read, but it had been protected for years by a grove of trees. Well, once we came in and my father was, you know, mowing and taking care of the area, it started to experience a lot more erosion. And after 20 years that we lived there, you couldn't read it as well as you used to. Now, thankfully, we had done a rubbing and all that. So hopefully we've preserved that content for the future. But still, you know, this is Something we still practice today. I. The church we go to, when you walk by, it's got a cornerstone in there that says, you know, the church was founded in 1897. They broke ground on this building in 1904. You know, we do that. And because stone lasts longer than we do, so it's a great memorial. And yeah, so it's. It's biblical, but it's also just sort of naturally human.
- [18:09]
Podcast Sponsor/Advertiser
Yeah.
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Jenny Ert
What a cool tie in with the title Stones Still Speak. You wrote in an ancient world, a time when most people could neither read nor. I've never considered this, you know, because you read in the Bible about that they would stack the stones and you're like, okay, whatever. You know, we've stacked stones before. People get mad about it now because they're like, you're ruining the microhabit, you know? Yep.
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Amanda Hope Haley
I had to happen to a friend of mine, her daughter, she was over at Walden Pond in Massachusetts, and she did some little stacked stones, and somebody came through. They were like, no, you can't do that. You can't leave that. They made her break it all apart.
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Jenny Ert
Yeah.
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Amanda Hope Haley
But she took a picture and sent it to me first.
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Jenny Ert
Right. So, like, no longer people want you to do that, but this is a time when people couldn't read or write. There's no thing such signs, no glow in the dark traffic signs. But rocks were abundant and everlasting. So the average hunter or herder would move past something that's obviously man made and might stop and wonder its purpose. Or might. Maybe they're going to hear the story. Or like you said, maybe it gives them sort of a meaning, like, this is a good place to hunt. Such a marker was often called an. Is it an Ebenezer?
- [19:12]
Amanda Hope Haley
Yes, an Ebenezer.
- [19:15]
Jenny Ert
Yeah. So interesting.
- [19:17]
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Jenny Ert
Okay, so then can you talk about when did you connect that? Okay, you grow up, you're. You learn all these Bible stories. I did do the flannel graph. You know, the father Abraham has many sons. And then you do the song the Right Arm. You know, you learn all these different things, and at some point you're like, well, some of these aren't exactly accurate. And it's actually helpful because you say a lot of things are challenged by scholars and they may be accurate in some points of that challenge. And so having this deeper understanding can help you to strengthen your faith and also to talk to other people about it as well. At what point, like, what was the story that you were like, huh? Maybe this isn't exactly how it was presented to me.
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Amanda Hope Haley
Actually, this particular story I don't tell in this book I told in a previous one, but it happened when I was in grad school, actually. I. I GRE in the church. I grew up hearing these stories. I was baptized twice because I was sprinkled by the Presbyterians and then dumped by the Baptists, you know, so, like, I really grew up steeped in Christian traditions and stories. And I did, I learned all of that. And when I got to undergrad and I started studying the Bible and I started learning the languages of the Bible, I would, or it would be pointed out to me certain things that maybe the church had skipped over. Like Noah, there's kind of two different stories in there. Did he bring the animals on 2 by 2 or 7 by 2? The story of creation, Genesis 1 is in a different order from what happens in Genesis 2 and 3. And so these things started being pointed out to me. And for a long time I just sort of held this obvious like biblical textual knowledge a little bit separate from what I've always been taught to believe in it. It took me years to bring those things together. Well, in graduate school, sort of the ultimate example of this was I was sitting in a class where we were reading non canonical gospels. So books that sound like maybe they could be in the Bible, but they were written a couple of hundred years later, maybe they weren't part of the canon, maybe because they were found too late or often because they're not complete, sections are missing from them. And often, often, often also they don't actually match up with the other stuff. Like they're just obviously not divinely inspired. And one of those is called the Gospel of Mary. So we're reading the Gospel of Mary, and in this gospel, at which the entire section, like the middle section is missing from it at the moment, although there's a scholar out there who thinks she may have found that just in the last couple of years, so stay tuned. But we're reading this. And so the, the narrative is Jesus has come back and he has given Mary Magdalene some very specific knowledge. He's given her, he's given her a vision, he's told her something important. And that's exactly what's missing from the text is whatever it was that Jesus said. And then you come back into it and the apostles are saying, are basically saying, you know, no, no, no, why would Jesus tell Mary something? Why wouldn't he tell us we were the ones who are his apostles? That's sort of the narrative. And the teaching fellow in the class just asked us, okay, so why do you think the apostles wouldn't listen to Mary Magdalene? And I raised my hand, bold as brass with all of my deep Sunday school theological knowledge. And I said, well, because she was a prostitute and there was an undergrad sitting across from me and I this is just as vivid today as it was 20 years ago. He's wearing this pink polo shirt and like the collar slipped up and we weren't doing that at that time. And he kicked back in his chair, he hit the wall and he laughed and he said, how did you get to Harvard and still think that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute? And I flushed as red as my hair and I think tears sprung to my eyes. And I didn't. I mean, I was embarrassed and I was confused. And the teaching fellow handled it really well. I'm thankful to Richard, to this day, for the way that he explained it. But before I explain that, let me tell you what happened next. I left class and I called my mother and I told her what had happened. And my mom, I'm like, walking back home because I didn't have a car. I watched three Miles every day. And I'm just very upset. I'm telling her, she's like, amanda, they're wrong. I know Mary Magdalene was a prostitute because when I was a child, I was in an Easter pageant and my mother painted my face, my eyes with blue eyeshadow so that everybody would know that I was Mary Magdalene the prostitute. And I thought about this, and it's like, here are is at least three generations of women in my family who love the Bible, who are believers, who go to church. And we all three firmly believe the Bible says something that the Bible doesn't say. And that ended up being sort of what cracked it open for me. Well, so back to Richard. He explains that essentially what happened was there was a Pope, Pope Gregory the Great, and one day he was giving a homily, and he was talking about Luke 7. And in Luke 7, you have the sinner, the woman sinner. It actually, it doesn't say if it's sexual sin or anything like that. She just is a sinner. She's washing Jesus's feet with her hair. She doesn't have a name. And so that apparently bothered Pope Gregory, and he decided to go to, okay, whatever the next female name is that's in scripture. I'm just going to call her that. Well, the Next. In Luke 8, you have Mary Magdalene, and that is Jesus casting demons out of her. It doesn't actually say that she's sinful. It certainly doesn't say that she's a prostitute or anything like that. Simply, he cast out the demons. Well, so he conflated these two women. He said, these must have been the same person. And then he goes on in that homily to take those seven demons. This is also the origin of the seven deadly sins. So I think most of us have heard of that at this point. So he then, at that point invents these seven deadly sins, one of which is sexual sin. And then over time, this just sort of evolves and, or maybe devolves into Mary Magdalene. It was sexual sin. And then eventually Mary Magdalene was a prostitute. And so you have to consider at this time, this is prior to the Protestant, Protestant Reformation. This is prior to Scriptures being translated into anything. If you didn't know Hebrew, Greek or Actually, it wasn't Latin, Hebrew, Greek, or Latin then. You could not read the Scriptures for yourself. And the Pope at that time, he is the mouthpiece of God. And so whatever he says goes. And people start talking about that, it starts being depicted in artwork. You see in the Renaissance, Mary Magdalene. There's a beautiful portrait of Mary Magdalene by. By Michelangelo. And she's depicted as a redhead because classically centering, sinning, sinful women were redheads. Jezebel gets that treatment, too. Thank you very much, gentlemen. She's, you know, as a redhead, she's actually topless in. In this portrait. And so art begins to perpetuate this. So that's where the story came from. Scripture itself says, yes, she had demons, but what scripture actually tells us about Mary Magdalene. She was the only individual that all four gospels say were present at Jesus's open tomb. Not even just the only man, but the only individual. She followed him. She supported his ministry. That's actually what Scripture says. But we've had all of these hundreds of years of tradition that have have gotten us to the point where we read this into the scripture. When we're talking about Mary Magdalene, we picture her the way my felt boards had her. She was always my favorite character on the felt board because her outfit was the prettiest. It was the most colorful. She even had little castanets on her fingers. Like, I loved Mary Magdalene. She was so pretty. Right. And so we have to kind of get through that so we understand textually and historically how that happened. Well, in 2017, in Israel, there's a town called Migdal. Migdal is ancient. Magdala. You can kind of hear, like, the vowels are the same. The name has evolved a little bit over time. But in Migdal, the city went to break ground. They were going to build something new. And mere inches below the surface of the soil, they found synagogues. They found a synagogue. They found a house. They found the ancient city of Magdala. It had never been excavated before. It, as far as I can think of, it is the only, like, Christian site where, you know, well, in this case, where Mary Magdalene came from. But it's the only place that they didn't throw it, that the Byzantine Empire didn't throw a church on top of. Looking at Christian sites is really challenging because they built churches on top of things, and so it's really hard to, like, get under there and do the excavation below. Well, anyway, here is this site that was. That was an active, big community. And we learned from it that it was a big maritime Site. It was a trading center. It was incredibly wealthy, it was incredibly devout. There are, last I heard, there are four mikvah mikvaot mikvahs there. These are ritual pools, ritual places where people go to bathe. When they are built, they have to have naturally flowing water in them. They were engineered so well that to this day, the archaeologists have to pump water out of them. They can't keep the water out. They were so well built and beautifully engineered more than 2,000 years ago. The city, the synagogue that's there has beautiful mosaics. And because of an earthquake that went through there, the mosaics have a ripple in them from where the earth moved and then stopped and it froze. It's an incredible sight. And so from that, we don't learn specifically about Mary Magdalene herself, but we understand where she came from a little bit better. We understand maybe why she might have been a woman of means and could have been somebody going around and supporting Jesus's ministry. And so anyway, yeah, all of that together shows how archaeology and learning that can kind of disrupt these, these, these images that we have and these stories that we've been told that don't actually fit with scripture because the archaeology does, but the stories don't. And so oftentimes what I find is when, say, secular scholarship disagrees with what the Church has said, it's not disagreeing with the Bible, it's disagreeing with, with what the Church has said, what men and women have said, the stories we've told, the way we've boiled things down over time.
- [33:30]
Jenny Ert
Yeah. And that's what you say in the book. You say, every Christian tradition I'd grown up with was challenged by scholars. It was the traditions. So you go through the book, it's called stone, still speak about a bunch of different Bible stories. So you talk about Joseph. You're like, his coat probably was not technicolored. You know, you talk about Jonah and you do talk about David and Goliath. So it's super interesting to learn about. And with each one, you, you boil it down to such a beautiful message. And so I'd love to talk about one or two of those. So for Joseph, you're like, okay, the coat probably was not technicolor, but you, you know, you, you talk about this journey that he's on. And can you tell us this sort of foundational message there from Joseph's life?
- [34:17]
Amanda Hope Haley
Well, if we're talking about the coat itself, the word that gets translated, it first happened when the Hebrew was translated into the Greek. The Greek translation is called the Septuagint. And when that happened, I don't know why, and I have not found anybody who does know why. But for some reason, they translated the word as multicolored or colorful or something like that. The word doesn't seem to have anything to do with that. It most likely comes from a word that means like the. The palms of your hands and the soles of your feet. So what's probably being described is a long, long, long sleeved garment. Either or there's also, if. If you go to a different language, it's also possible that it is describing a garment that had gilded thread in it. Either way, or even if it was multicolored, you know, either way, what is being described there is a garment that would have been extremely cold, costly, and. And that, on its face, culturally speaking, at the time, was unusual for a father to give a younger, almost youngest, not quite, but almost youngest son, something of that kind of great value. And so that, that, that. That's sort of the foundational thing there. That is what starts to cause, you know, the rift with the brothers. They're obviously aggravated that their father is showing this youngest son, younger son, favoritism. And so that's. Yeah, that. That's the core kind of thing. And so then, I mean, he goes off to Egypt, he goes into this other place. And, you know, while he is there, I think one. One thing we can learn from Joseph is you see him going in and embracing the other. The other culture that is there, but not losing his God. And so that becomes really critical, not just, you know, for his own survival, but for the survival of everybody who is around him. His insight, what he brings into Egypt, he is. He is the reason that they end up surviving seven years of famine. And because of him being in this critical space, being an honest man, being somebody who God chose to distinguish among the Egyptians as a man of insight because of his ability to interpret dreams. You look at all that because of the way he rose, because of the way he saved the Egyptians. It also enabled him to save the surrounding cultures, which of course ends up being his own family when they come because they need to purchase the supplies from the kingdom of Egypt. So it's this linchpin that is in there that is really necessary for the 12 tribes to come into Egypt and then eventually go back under Moses.
- [37:09]
Jenny Ert
You know, a lot of things. Wow. Yeah, it's super interesting. It was really interesting to read about. I want to read a couple of the things you wrote. The story of Joseph's life is the longest narrative in Genesis fills the last quarter of the book. Joseph teaches us that the key to thriving in another culture, no matter how we got there, is faith in God. He lives a life of devotion through his unexpected and often unwanted circumstances that God uses to bless everyone around him. His choice to serve God in the worst and best of times, whether he is alone among strangers or surrounded by family, is an example for all who read Genesis, and especially for people who find themselves displaced from their homelands and loved ones by circumstances. God is always with his children, no matter where they are. This is beautiful.
- [37:59]
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- [40:12]
Jenny Ert
So you go through a bunch of these different Bible stories with these sort of foundational truths, like with David and Goliath. You talk about. This is an example of how God defies expectations. He chooses underdogs and gifts, the unexceptional, to do the work of his kingdom. It's such a beautiful book. It's called Stones Still Speak. I want to ask you about something that's super random, but your husband's grandma is Amish.
- [40:38]
Amanda Hope Haley
Yes. Was. Yes.
- [40:41]
Jenny Ert
Okay.
- [40:42]
Amanda Hope Haley
Yeah, yeah. She passed away in 94, I think.
- [40:46]
Jenny Ert
Oh, okay. Was in terms of she's no longer alive, but like, what, what is. How do you meet someone and get married to someone?
- [40:55]
Amanda Hope Haley
Oh, this has nothing to do with the book, but it's great story. Right. So she was, she was a Miller and she was from northern Ohio near your Lake Erie. And in their community, girls were only educated to the eighth grade.
- [41:11]
Jenny Ert
Yep.
- [41:12]
Amanda Hope Haley
And at that point, at the end of eighth grade, she was being sent, she, the girls will be sent out to work in restaurants or help with cleaning or, you know, something like that. And so she ended up being a cleaner in the home of a family that was, was well, wealthy and I guess just got to know them and had conversations and expressed to them that she really wanted to continue her education. She didn't want to stop at the eighth grade. And so if, if I'm blunt, I guess she would say that this family kidnapped her and sent her. So this was northern Ohio.
- [41:47]
Jenny Ert
They would say they rescued her probably. Yeah. You think that's what they would say?
- [41:51]
Amanda Hope Haley
Yeah, I, I, that's what they would say. That is not what her family would have said. Sure. So they take her and there's sent her to Nashville. There's a university here called Lipscomb University. And I don't know, at that time, there was also a boarding high school that was called David Lipscomb High School. Forgive me. I don't know if it's still here or not, but they brought her here. So she started boarding in Nashville. And anyway, being here in the south, she ended up meeting the man who had become my husband's father. And once her. It took a little time for her family to figure out where she was and get wind of it. But her father and some brothers paid somebody to drive them to Nashville from Ohio. I believe they had guns with him. And they came to Nashville with every intention of taking her back with them. And the man who would be my husband's grandfather went and, you know, talked. Talked to them and, you know, explained like, I. I want to marry your daughter. You know, I'm a Christian man. They talked a little bit about faith. And so he did enough that they went back home. But then she was shunned for about 40 years. And. Yeah, so she was shunned, and she married my husband's. Yeah, so she. She married Papa. And you went on. Went on to have a family and live here in middle Tennessee. And then in the. In the night, in the late 80s, early 90s, she failed out from some of her siblings because, of course, the Amish have this tradition where when you reach the age of 18, people are invited to go out, spend one year out in the world and decide if they want to come back and live the Amish lifestyle or not. So she had siblings who had done that and had chosen to stay out in the world, and they had reached out to her. She was in touch with them. So through these cousins and siblings and all, she found out that her father was very, very sick. And so she just, bold as brass, went up there and went home to everybody and did not see her father, but the men were there. And so she threatened them. And she said, I am going to hug each and every one of you until you tell me where my father is. And she goes. In the first one, I believe it was Bill. She goes and she hugs him, and he's like, okay, okay, okay, I'll tell you where your father is. Because that's just. Women don't touch men. I mean, their culture is just very, very different. And so anyway, she ends up meeting with him. She and Papa were brought in. They were taken into the church. They were questioned about their faith. They're basically grilled for many, many hours. And at the end of that, the community decided to no longer shun them. And so from that point Forward in the summers. There were many years that just every summer they'd go up for the Amish reunion. And I got to go for the first time myself two summers ago. It was. And I got to go. And that, that was a unique experience. They are, sure, they are lovely people, and their children may be the worst behaved children I've ever seen in my, my life. And let's. And yet so incredibly charming. Just. It was interesting speaking with them and. Yeah, that as, yeah, that, that's, that, that's another story.
- [45:21]
Podcast Sponsor/Advertiser
Yeah.
- [45:21]
Amanda Hope Haley
They don't know what to do with me because I, I, I study. I, I, I do what I do. The men would get together and talk about the Bible, and the women would get together and talk about children. And so I, I don't know, fit there. I don't fit when I go. So not to say that they aren't kind, but the women just don't know what to do with me. I don't fit their mold.
- [45:44]
Jenny Ert
Yeah.
- [45:45]
Amanda Hope Haley
So.
- [45:45]
Jenny Ert
But you go anywhere, you expose them to different ways.
- [45:49]
Amanda Hope Haley
They're lovely people, and we learned from them. And, you know, one especially just the peace. It's so quiet and beautiful there. And just the way they interact with each other and the priorities that they have, and it is a, it is a completely different lifestyle. It's a beautiful one.
- [46:08]
Podcast Sponsor/Advertiser
Yeah.
- [46:09]
Amanda Hope Haley
So, yeah, interesting.
- [46:10]
Jenny Ert
It's like two sentences in the book, but I was like, I'm kind of curious about the Amish grandmother. All right, let's talk about a couple other things before we wrap up. One is that you also are really interested in astronomy, and I don't know much about this James Webb Space Telescope, so obviously I grew up hearing about the Hubble, and.
- [46:28]
Podcast Sponsor/Advertiser
Is that what.
- [46:29]
Jenny Ert
Yeah, that's what it's called.
- [46:29]
Amanda Hope Haley
Yeah.
- [46:30]
Jenny Ert
But this one, you say, okay, you're gonna have to just, you know, indulge me here. It can see further back in time than the Hubble. And so then I was like, huh.
- [46:44]
Amanda Hope Haley
Okay.
- [46:45]
Podcast Sponsor/Advertiser
Okay.
- [46:46]
Amanda Hope Haley
I am not an astronomer or astrophysicist or anything like that. I am, I am simply an enthusiast. But I will say, when I was in undergrad, my astronomy professor actually was one of the inventors of the Hubble. So he. Yeah, I know, I know. He drove the cutest little sports car roadster that you've ever seen in your life. It was, it was adorable. I can still see it. Anyway, so what that means is when we look up at the night sky and we see stars, we are not seeing star. Even telescopes are not seeing stars as they are. We're seeing, seeing the light that they put off however many light years we are from them. So say, say we are 3,000 light years from a star. I'm just pulling numbers out of my head. But say it's 3,000 light years from a star, then when we look at that star, we are seeing what that star looked like 3,000 light years ago. We're not seeing what it looks like today. And so the James Webb or really any telescope, any telescope that is looking deeper into space than we came with the naked eye, the deeper it's going into space, then of course, the closer it is, but the closer it is to that light. So that's what that means is you're seeing, you're seeing history in that particular way. So it's seen deeper than we ever have before. There's a story and I'm going to butcher this, this. But I, there, there was a, it was, I love butcher stories.
- [48:21]
Jenny Ert
Go for it, Amanda.
- [48:22]
Amanda Hope Haley
He, it was an author and I'm not remembering who it was. Right. Oh, who wrote the Raven? Edgar Allan Poe.
- [48:32]
Jenny Ert
I know.
- [48:32]
Amanda Hope Haley
Way less than Garland Poe. I think it was Edgar Allan Poe. That sounds right positive about this. But you know, somebody was saying, like with all the stars there are in the galaxy, when we look up at the night sky, why is it dark? Why is it that, you know, I mean, if we are complete, the universe as large as it is, all these stars are putting off this light. Why is our night sky dark? It should be light with the light from all these stars. And it was, it was a, it was a writer who actually said, well, it must just be because they're so far away, their light hasn't reached us yet. And so that coming from a man of books, a man of letters, was sort of a bit of an aha. Moment of. Oh yeah. I mean that is actually true. And so when we look through our telescopes, that's it. That's why we're seeing further back in time.
- [49:20]
Jenny Ert
Just so interesting.
- [49:22]
Amanda Hope Haley
Yeah, yeah. I'm an enthusiast with astronomy. I think the way a lot of people are an enthusiast when it comes to archeology, I just, I just enjoyed it. Something I shared with my dad when I was a child, learning the names of constellations and all of that. It's way he and I bonded because he loved it. He grew up doing that because he grew up, up sailing on the Chesapeake Bay. So dad, you know, put that in me when I was little. And anyway, yeah, I, I enjoy, I enjoy astronomy, all of that.
- [49:50]
Jenny Ert
Yeah. So interesting. So then you talk about Our theories and conclusions are only as strong as the raw data supporting them. As it turns out, no science is ever settled so long as exploration is still occurring. And to your point, you're like, they found that dig site in 2017, and that's not that long ago. That's within the last decade. So all of these things are always being discovered. And so you say we must hold lightly to our own conclusions. Okay, so in the process of actually digging, this is how I feel about why this is going to be a stupid transition. But I feel like I could never be a realtor because I think about the. Our own realtors named Scott, like, how many stupid houses we took him to because we, like, didn't really have enough money to have, like, the nicer house. So then you'd drag them along to all these ones that were, like, lower price, and you're like, oh, well, this one, like, though there's two wings of the house with the bedroom, and you have to, like, walk across this catwalk thing to get to the. And you're like, this is so weird. How is anybody living like this? You know, you go into these homes that are just erected. So oddly. And Scott went with us to all of these stupid, weird houses, and he probably should have been like, look, you're too poor to afford anything like this. Like, this. Stop dragging me along. And so I'm nervous about, like, wasted time, basically.
- [51:10]
Podcast Sponsor/Advertiser
Right.
- [51:11]
Jenny Ert
So I would think about similarly with digging. Like, there's a lot of spaces that you could dig, and it appears that you could dig and dig and dig and never find anything. So how do you handle that?
- [51:27]
Amanda Hope Haley
So are you asking me how a site is chosen to be dug?
- [51:30]
Jenny Ert
Well, like, how do you. I mean, do you have that, like, oh, my gosh, I'm gonna go there, and I might waste a good portion of my life. Or do you just have, like, in innate hope?
- [51:43]
Amanda Hope Haley
This is where science has really helped a lot. Now, let's see, back when archeology started, so back in late 1800s, early 1900s, late, like, 1880s, 1890s, 1900s, people would go into the near east. And in Israel, if you just, like, look along the horizon line, you just see these bumps, these, like, hills, and you can kind of tell, like, it's not natural. Right? And that's what we call them tells. Tell is a word that simply means mound. One thing you'll learn about archaeologists quickly is we're not super creative. We just name things what they are. So every. Almost everything in Israel is tell something or other. Tell Ashkelon tell, Megiddo tell, Shimra, own tell, whatever, because. And it just means mound. So they would see the mounds. And then largely based, when you're talking about biblical archeology, largely based on the geography, first off, that had been retained from memory, because a lot of cities, Jerusalem for instance, Jerusalem is the ultimate tell because it is just civilization on top of civilization on top of civilization. The memory of that being Jerusalem has held for thousands and thousands of years. So you'd have that memory, but you would also have some signposts in scripture that may indicate, like, okay, you know, Megiddo is in the shadow of Mount Carmel, you know, in this plane, that sort of thing. And so they may be able to look at a tell at that point and make an educated guess that I bet that's what that city was. And then they could dive in. It's better today. First off, we've got more than 100 years of research that we can lean upon. Artifacts that have been found. Once you figure out what one city is like, you know, once Ashkelon was. Well, that's another one. It's still called Ashkelon today. We have that memory there. But there were five cities of the Philistine Pentapolis. For a long time, Gatt, we didn't know where that one was. There was like, even when I was an undergrad, it's like, it's probably Telesafe, but we're not really sure. And now as more has been uncovered there, there is great confidence in, in the field that that is indeed the city of Gat, the city that Goliath came from. So. So you build on information from other places, but critically, you have radar, radar and sonar and lidar and all of these tools. And so there, there is a site, they broke ground on it in 2017. It's called Tel Shimrone. It never been excavated before. There is a modern day city there. There is a currently active cemetery on the top of it that the citizens use to this day. The man who broke ground there, Daniel Master, who I have known since my Ashkelon days, he looked at it and based on context clues, when I bet that's Shimroom. The reason it had never been dug before is because it's not really famous for anything in the Bible. It gets mentioned a few times, like the king of Shimmero did thus and such, but you could tell based on the size of it and its location on old trade routes that he thought this could be a really great site for helping us understand the way the ancient world functioned. And he was 100% correct. Well, so he identifies the site, he thinks based on the geography, that's where he wants to go. And then the first thing you do is go in with ground penetrating radar, and the ground penetrating radar will show you, okay, there's stuff in here, there's artifacts in here. You start to get a fuzzy image of, okay, yep, there are structures, there are houses, because to loop back around, all of those houses were built of stone. And those stones last forever. They may get knocked down and covered back over with earth because of erosion and weather and all of those things, but those stones are still there. And because of the way they fall and because of the way they lay and because of the way the soil looks around them, archeologists can look at those stones and figure out what the structure actually looked like in antiquity. We can use those contexts, clues to do it. So that is huge. And there are even more advanced technologies that are being developed right now, which I will fully admit to not understanding. Moans it has something to do with UV light and the way it penetrates objects. That is the newest, most cutting edge thing. It's being tested on some archaeological sites. It's not actually in full use yet. So you have this intersection of hard sciences with interpretation and with, in the case of Israel, scripture, or in the case of Egypt, you know, ancient writing, same with Samaria, all of that. And so you have all these different fields coming together, and they all work together to help archaeologists understand what the ancient world looks like.
- [56:22]
Jenny Ert
Okay, so it's not just like wild goose chase. That's what I think I'm picturing.
- [56:26]
Amanda Hope Haley
Like, it's not how big the world
- [56:28]
Jenny Ert
is, you know, and it's like, we'll dig here.
- [56:31]
Amanda Hope Haley
No, it's not. And that's why Magdala survived the way that it did, because most cities, as they were coming up in antiquity, the very first people who built in a spot, they picked it for a reason. Maybe because it was up high so that they could see if there were predators or enemies coming from around them. It's close to a water source for obvious reasons. Like, there would be natural reasons. People would pick a city and the city would go, it would thrive, people would die. The city would be abandoned for whatever reason, illness, war, whatever reason. Then it would be abandoned for several hundred years. The earth would take it back over. And then a few hundred years later, after maybe those people have been completely forgotten, other people would come in and for the exact same reasons. They'd be like, hey, look, this is up High. Hey, look, this is close to that trade route. This is close to that water source. Let's build a city here. And this happens over and over and over and over again over thousands of years. And that's why you get those artificial hills, those. Those tells, those mounts. That's where they come from. People pick places for the same reasons over and over again.
- [57:35]
Jenny Ert
So interesting.
- [57:36]
Amanda Hope Haley
So that didn't happen, Magdala.
- [57:38]
Jenny Ert
Okay, I didn't know any of this. What a cool thing. I'm so glad that you came on to talk to us about archaeology. Tell us about your podcast. You have the red Haired Archaeologist podcast.
- [57:48]
Amanda Hope Haley
I do, I do. And what I try to do is I basically talk about archaeology as it illuminates the Bible. One thing I say a lot in that book, and I say a lot in life, is archaeology does not exist to prove the Bible. Archeology is not a tool of apologists or anything like that. Archeology helps us understand the scripture better. Archeology is the setting of what is happening there. It does not prove it. And so that's what I do is basically start with the archeology, look at, you know, what is out there, what is in the field, and then say, okay, you know, this is what was found at Tel Megiddo. Let's look at what, you know, let's look at what kings has to say about Solomon building the city of Megiddo and then, you know, put those things together. So that's what I do. Not that the archaeology proves Solomon existed or something like that. No, no, no, no, no. The archaeologists, the archeology explains what the city looks like and maybe why Solomon built it in the way that he did. There's a subtlety there, but it's critical.
- [58:56]
Jenny Ert
It's so interesting. The book is called Stones that speak how biblical archeology illuminates the stories you thought you knew. Amanda, we always end our show with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood? That was outside.
- [59:10]
Amanda Hope Haley
That was outside. Oh, I'm gonna loop back around to my dad. We would go out mostly on warm summer nights or unseasonably warm winter nights, and he would teach me the names of all the stars and all the constellations. And his favorite thing to do, honestly, was to, like, point it at typically like a satellite or something else and like, just completely flummox me. Well, what's that one? Well, come on, Amanda, we talked about this last week. What's that one?
- [59:36]
Jenny Ert
What's that?
- [59:36]
Amanda Hope Haley
And it's like, it's not anything. It's the satellite or it's something, you know, moving through the sky, but that because of being with my dad, but you know, also learning about the stars. And it sure was a big help knowing that stuff when I went into that astronomy class in undergrad.
- [59:50]
Podcast Sponsor/Advertiser
I'm sure.
- [59:51]
Jenny Ert
I'm sure. Oh, well, what an honor to meet a real life archaeologist. Amanda, huge congrats on your book and thank you so much for being here. Thank you.
- [59:59]
Amanda Hope Haley
Thank you so much for having me. It's been a great conversation.
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Amanda Hope Haley
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Jenny Ert
My refund though.
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Amanda Hope Haley
Don't worry, I can fix this. LifeLock fixes identity theft guaranteed and gets your money back with up to $3 million in coverage. I'm so relieved.
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