Jenny Erton (2:34)

Yeah. So on your podcast you started talking with people who are doing something different and then you said you're like, oh my goodness, there's so many people that I have a wait list, so I'm going to put out more episodes and I still have a wait list. So for parents who are listening and they're like, oh, I really want something different, can you just assure them that a lot of people are feeling that same way and are choosing to make changes?

Carrie McDonald (2:58)

Yeah. You know, again, we saw this momentum building before 2020 as more families were wondering about again, alternatives to traditional schooling, more parents becoming frustrated by kind of one size fits all schooling and increasingly standardized test driven classrooms and looking for changes. And then I think when families all of a sudden were thrust at home during COVID and so school shutdowns and remote learning, there was even more interest in what else was available. And a lot of families sort of poked their heads up at that time and discovered this whole world that of course you and I knew existed and homeschooling and alternatives to school. And then more families gravitated towards these models. And so what we're seeing today, and the data actually back this up, including wonderful data coming out of Johns Hopkins University's homeschool hub and professor, Professor Angela Watson, who's sort of tracking a lot of the homeschooling growth and change since 2020, finding that homeschooling is accelerating in many states over the past several years, kind of beyond the pandemic blip. You know, people thought, oh yeah, sure, you'll have this sort of short term increase in interest in homeschooling and schooling alternatives, but that's been sustained and in fact is accelerating, I think, as more and more of these micro schools and hybrid homeschool programs emerge.

Jenny Erton (4:26)

Yeah, I mean, they were calling them hubs. I remember when the, the wording started coming out and you're like, this is brand new. And you are highlighting different people who are doing different things all over the country. Some are very successful, some are having to deal with failure. And so Joyful learning is, I would say, a one of a kind. I've not read any other book like it. That's like, hey, here's what you can do, here's what other people are doing. And also then echoed on your podcast as well, people can find that@liberatedpodcast.com you say, enjoy for learning that your gram, you talk about your grand. She was a teacher born in 1915. And what a time to be born. What a time. I mean, there's probably not even, I don't even know when cars came out. But like, you know, I mean, you're back in like the Henry Ford era, you know, 1915. And if you live to be a hundred years, from 1915 to 2015, there is such an incredible change. And then if you tack on 10 more years, and now we're in this age of AI the change in the pace of life, the everything, all of our appliances we know now we got robots. So the change is so drastic. But here's what you say, what she witnessed over these 94 years of her life, just tremendous. Yet schooling has remained largely one size fits all. Can you talk about why that's kind of a problem?

Carrie McDonald (5:49)

Yeah, I mean, I think that when you look at the amount of change and innovation that occurred certainly over my grandmother's lifetime, she lived to be almost 95. And, and then as you mentioned just in the past couple of decades, it's, it's just remarkable. And yet schooling has remained sort of stubbornly stagnant and in, in many cases increasingly standardized with, you know, so many of the, of this sort of teach to the test mentality, which I heard from over and over again from the school school founders that I interviewed, the majority of whom are former public school teachers who themselves became really frustrated by the sort of teaching and testing model that sort of stapled their creativity and autonomy as much as it did their students. So, you know, I think that especially today in this world where we have so much personalization in every other part of our lives, more and more parents, and especially I'm noticing sort of younger parents that are millennial, I'm sort of a Gen Xer, but millennial parents or these new Gen Z parents, they're looking around and saying, gosh, you know, why isn't schooling kind of catching up with this level of personalization that we enjoy elsewhere and customization that we enjoy elsewhere? And I think that's what's driving a lot of this increased interest in these emerging schooling models?

Jenny Erton (7:18)

And you're going to give in. Joyful learning, the nitty gritty of how to even start. Like, and at the end of each chapter, you've got specific things for a founder. That's the word you use. Like someone who maybe wants to found something new to be a founder. Like, what are some things that they could, should consider? And also talking to the parents, what are some Things that they can consider. So the schooling hasn't changed in about, you know, in this hundred year time period, 150 years or so. But then that part of the history of schooling, that's all there is. Like before then this would have been considered out of the norm. And what's so interesting, I read in your book. So you read both of them, like read them as a pair in Unschooled, you're talking about how when the compulsory schooling laws came into effect, which would have been around the time your grandmother was born, like the final compulsory law I read in your book I think was maybe 1919 or something that was like the very last state, Mississippi or I could be wrong, it was around 1918 Mississippi.

Carrie McDonald (8:17)

Yeah.

Jenny Erton (8:17)

Okay, 1918 Mississippi. So this is like when your grandma's born is when the final compulsory state education law comes into being. I mean that's like just over 100 years ago. It's not that long ago, but these original laws were like 12 weeks, ages 8 to 14 and only six of the weeks had to be consecutive. So it's like, I'll come this week, I'm going to take a couple of weeks off. It was very different. So I think it's so important when we're so immersed in something that doesn't really seem to be the best thing. 15,000 hours of childhood, it's very adult directed. We live in a very fluid world. Like it doesn't seem to be the right thing, but everybody else is doing this. The history really gives it some context. So I know it's a long story. People can go deeper into it in Unschooled. But can you give a little bit of the Horace Mann type history so that people know this really wasn't created from like grandmothers who are like this is the best way that kids learn and they're going to love this environment. It was really created for an alternative purpose.

Carrie McDonald (9:23)

Yeah. And it is a long history that I go into detail in both books, but probably even more so in Unschooled, the earlier book. But you know, it's really interesting if we look back to sort of the colonial era in America, these dame schools or what you would consider today sort of micro schools in your neighbor's kitchen. The those date back to like the 1600s in Mass. Bay Colony, Massachusetts Bay Colony. So what's old is new again, as so often is the case. But there were sort of these, these sort of this variety and this assortment of educational models in the colonial and revolutionary period. There were charity schools, there were private schools. Public schools, apprenticeship models and of course, homeschooling was the default. There was sort of this expectation that parents were the ones ultimately responsible for their children's education. And then, beginning in the mid 19th century, we see the advent of the first compulsory schooling, compulsory school attendance laws that began in 1852 in my home state, Massachusetts, led by Horace Mann, who was the state's first secretary of the Board of Education, and really ushered in the common school schooling era to create public schools that were now compulsory. So, you know, parents had to send their children to these schools under illegal threat of force. And the idea was that this was, you know, for the best for the child and for society. But of course, at the time, these common schools, these public schools, were purportedly secular, but they were in, for all intents and purposes, Protestant. They had the King James version of the Bible, they had Protestant teachers and texts. And many of the sort of Catholic immigrants that were streaming into cities at the time, particularly the city of Boston, were not happy with the fact that they now had to send their children to these, what were, for all intents and purposes, program, Protestant public schools. And so they began to create this sort of parallel system of Catholic schools, parochial schools, because they wanted their values to be reflected and they didn't think that that would be the case in public schools. And I think that's a piece of the history of American education that we don't often hear. We think about common schools, sort of this utopian vision of bringing everybody together. And in fact, it was sort of bringing everyone together, but not necessarily celebrating the diversity of those students and families and. And respecting the different values that. That those families would bring to the table.

Jenny Erton (12:10)

Yeah, it's good to read about. And you talked about how Horace Mann had become enamored with a Prussian model of compulsory schooling because it was orderly and efficient. He was deeply fearful of parental authority. And part of what's going on is that they are pushing back against the family. You say the Pilgrims family was sovereign. Parents were responsible for their children's education, but they were not the only ones teaching them. So back into joyful learning, where it's like you're creating these micro schools and these different learning opportunities for maybe small groups of kids or, or larger, depending on what you have going on. So the. What's old is new again. I love if you're like the type of person that's like, I. I would like my family to be sovereign. And I think that we do have a lot to offer our own children. There's a lot to be learned. In these books there was a statement that said, the ignorant must be allured to learn. So this is coming from this Horm Horace man time. The ignorant must be allured to learn by every motive which can be offered to them. And if they will not be allured, they must be taken by the strong arm of government and brought out, willing or unwilling, and made to learn. So that's the history.

Carrie McDonald (13:24)

Yeah. And I think we forget about sort of this dark underpinning of compulsion and kind of coercion in education. It's that it's force. And you know, we see that even today. I mean, we think of these as sort of antiquated laws, you know, dating back to the 19th century. But in fact, just recently in Missouri, the Wall Street Journal reported on this and other outlets as well a couple of years ago of two single moms, kind of separate families in Missouri who had children kind of in the wake of COVID I think it was like 2021 or 2022 whose elementary school children missed about 15 days of school, 1 5, 15 days of school and academic year and were these parents were criminalized, were punished for truancy and the Missouri Supreme Court upheld their sentencing for truancy. So, you know, I think that we, we can't forget that compulsory schooling laws often come with this sort of full freight of force that the state can impose on families.

Jenny Erton (14:33)

Wow. And yet it's fairly new. These books are fantastic. I have 10 pages of notes here.

Sponsor/Advertisement Voice (14:39)

March is when homeschool families start looking ahead. You can almost see the finish line. Spring goals, end of year milestones, maybe even testing around the corner. And this is such an important time to reinforce key skills and build confidence before wrapping up the if you are thinking about assessments, whether required by your state or simply the benchmarks you set for your family, it's helpful to have a tool that makes review simple and clear. That's where IXL can really shine. IXL is an award winning online learning platform that fits seamlessly into homeschooling. It offers interactive practice across math, language arts, science and social studies from Pre K through 12th grade. It personalizes learning for each child, keeps them engaged and gives parents clear insight into progress. What stands out this time of year is a real time feedback and progress tracking. Kids get instant explanations when they miss something and parents can see exactly where growth is happening and where a little reinforcement might help. It takes the guesswork out of finishing strong. Make an impact on your child's learning. Get IXL now and 1000 Hours Outside listeners can get an exclusive 20% off IXL membership when they sign up today at ixl.com 1000hours Visit ixl.com 1000hours to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. The start of a new season always makes me look around and think, how can this house function better? Not fancier, just better. And honestly, Wayfair has become my go to when we're ready to level up a space without overspending, we tackled organization first, like closet systems, garage storage and shelving. For a work from home setup that was slowly being overtaken by stacks of books. Wayfair's filters make it incredibly easy to narrow by dimensions, finish and budget. I could compare pieces side by side, read reviews and feel confident before clicking order. Then we layered in a few lighter touches for spring like updated bedding, simple decor, and a couple pieces for the patio so we're ready to be outside more.

Jenny Erton (16:27)

I love that you can find everything

Sponsor/Advertisement Voice (16:28)

in one place, from big furniture upgrades to functional decor that actually solves a problem. Delivery was fast, assembly was straightforward, and there are even options if you want installation handled for you. It just feels streamlined. Find furniture, decor and essentials that fit your unique style and budget. Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W A Y F A I R.com Wayfair Every style, every Home this is such a fun announcement to make. Womb Bikes is officially the 2026 bike partner of 1000 hours outside. And if you've been around here long enough, you know that's not a casual partnership. We care deeply about the tools that help families reclaim childhood. And Womb is doing exactly that. Womb was founded by two dads in a Vienna garage who simply couldn't find a bike that actually fit their kids. So they built one. And what makes Woom different is that they don't start with engineering. They start with empathy. Every part of the bike, from the lightweight frame to the brakes, sized perfectly for small hands, is designed to help kids feel capable and confident in a screen dominated world. Bikes are more than bikes. They are freedom. They are connection. They're miles of memories before the street lights come on. So this spring we're launching something brand new, the 100 Hour Ride Challenge. We'll release a brand new tracker chart just for logging 100 hours outside on bikes and for app members. Stay tuned. Integration inside the 1000 hours outside app is coming if you've got little learners. The Womb Go bikes are incredible. Available in six bright colors, including the sweetest new powder pink that just Feels like spring. If you are working toward your 1000

Jenny Erton (17:59)

hours outside this year, a great bike

Sponsor/Advertisement Voice (18:02)

makes it a whole lot easier. Womb designs lightweight bikes built just for kids so they can ride farther and ride happier. Go to womb.com and use code outside 10 at checkout for 10% off your bike purchase, excluding the womb. Wow, that's outside 10 for 10% off at w o o m com.

Jenny Erton (18:21)

You. I mean, I love, because since you just brought this up, talking about freedom, like you say, we're like, you know, we're Americans, we fight for freedom. And then you're like, and yet we place our kids in increasingly restrictive learning environments at ever early ages and for much longer portions of their day and year than at any other time in history. Most children have the life force drained out of them. Most of us grew up in these authoritarian classrooms. We were told what to learn, what to do, how to act. We were told our interest and enthusiasm doesn't matter. We were told our natural creativity was not nearly as important as coloring in the lines. We were told that freedom was for others. Okay, you're an incredible writer and these books are so good. Can you talk about. So you told some really cool stories in here. I would love if you would talk about the story. And you're kind of highlighting like in both books. Look, kids are biologists. Peter Gray says kids are biologically designed to self educate, but we don't know about it because we've been in these preschools, you know, since we're two, so we've forgotten or maybe we never knew that children are brilliant at directing their own education. So you told this incredible story about being at a beach with your own kids, that you're homeschooling and a field trip shows up.

Carrie McDonald (19:37)

Yes.

Jenny Erton (19:38)

And you talk about the difference between your kids who, you know, are just have this free rein to go explore, and the kids who have a worksheet that they have to complete.

Carrie McDonald (19:48)

Yeah. So this is the opening scene in Unschooled, which is again the 2019 book where I write about bringing my four children to the beach kind of at the end of June before school was out and seeing this school group of middle schoolers arrive on this beach. And, you know, my kids were kind of playing in the rocks and in the sand and discovering all the critters on the beach. And then I looked over to this school group who, you know, had these worksheets and there were, you know, several things on the worksheet that they had to identify and check off and then report back to the teacher. And there was one young girl who motioned her friend, oh, look, I, you know, look what I found. I found this amazing critter. Come see. And then the other friend came over and looked at it and looked down at her worksheet and said, oh, it's not on the list. And then they sort of moved on. And you could just sort of see the. The emotional deflation in this girl who was so enthusiastic about what she had discovered and then yet had to go back to what was on that list, checking the boxes. And I think that that was so illustrative of what we often see in conventional classrooms. And again, I kind of point back to the sort of. The intent of Joyful Learning is to show that it's not just students who are feeling deflated or having their enthusiasm robbed from them. It's also teachers who often go into education because they have that passion for learning and they want to help other young people discover that passion. And then they find that they're constrained and are often as unable to sort of express their individuality as the young people that they're teaching.

Jenny Erton (21:44)

They're so constrained. Because I used to be in the classroom too, and it was like, you have to give this assessment on this day, and it's gotta match every other class. I mean, there's so much constraints for everyone. There is very little freedom. There did used to be more. I mean, when I was growing up, I mean, you're. You would want a certain teacher because you knew they did certain things in the third grade and the other teacher did different things. But now I think it is so much more standardized. So can you talk about the surging demand? So in Joyful Learning, you are highlighting all of these alternatives. There's so many different ways to do this. And John Holt thought that. And John Holt was like this kind of father of unschooling. I love a lot of his things, and you talk about him in both books, but he thought that the homeschooling movement would cap at a certain amount. And you talk about. No, it is growing and growing.

Carrie McDonald (22:34)

It is growing and growing, certainly much more than it was pre pandemic and is now sort of right on par with the number of students who are attending a public charter school in the U.S. so roughly 7% of students in the U.S. attend a public charter school. Somewhere about 6% percent are now homeschooling. So these are no longer kind of marginal education options. These are incredibly mainstream. And one of the things that I point out in Joyful Learning is that I think one of the Things that's making homeschooling and other alternatives to conventional schooling more accessible are these sort of micro schools and hybrid schools that some families are able to access up to 5 days a week if they want to, for a fraction of the cost of a traditional private school, still retaining that flexibility and that kind of family centered educational focus. And in some cases, families are able to attend these programs tuition free. With the growth of school choice policies, particularly over the past six years, as more and more states pass school choice programs that enable a portion of state allocated education funding to follow families to their preferred educational environment, including in many states, micro schools and hybrid homeschool programs and so on.

Jenny Erton (23:58)

And so you give the steps in this book, Joyful Learning, you have an acronym startups. It's a road map of how you could start something if you're looking for something different. Because you had given a story about. And I, I relate to this. You're like, you had a child and it was either you or it was someone, it might have been someone else's story actually, where they're like, everything's going great. We love homeschooling. And then my child hit age 8, which is pretty young, and a lot of the friends went back to the traditional school model and now we're kind of alone and so we have to come up with something. So you wrote, many of today's education entrepreneurs are just ordinary people who take on the challenge of running a small business because they see that these standards are changing, but kids are still kids and they're looking for something different. Can you talk about then how just it's a lot of these parents that are making these choices and that's who you're highlighting. So throughout this book and on your podcast, it was interesting to me that you covered about how the traditional school mindset really influences actual parenting.

Carrie McDonald (25:03)

Yeah, I mean, I think it's hard for parents to kind of look beyond a conventional classroom. Although I will say I think it's a lot easier than it was just a few years ago. And because of this shift that we've seen since COVID and the proliferation of a lot of these schooling alternatives and the greater access to these alternatives thanks to school choice programs. But you're right that in many cases the folks who are building these innovative schools and learning spaces are just everyday parents and teachers who have an idea for what would work for their kids often look around and see that it doesn't exist. And like true entrepreneurs, build what they can't find. And you know, one of my favorite recent Schools stories. And I think this would appeal to your audience. Ginny is. I just wrote about this in my latest Forbes column of a founder in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, an entrepreneurial mom who began homeschooling in the wake of COVID Not something that she had been doing before, but really loved it. I think that was another common theme as we saw a lot of families discover they really liked homeschooling and especially liked sort of personalization and customization that comes with that. And she kind of looked around for a secular, academic focused homeschool program in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, couldn't find it, so she built it. And today she runs Carolina Kids Co Op. This is Jess Alfred's is the entrepreneur. She has 150 students in her Myrtle beach program, nearly 1,000 throughout the Southeast. And it's a fully outside micro school, or not so micro, but a fully outside kind of homeschool program that families are able to attend up to five days a week if they want to. And they're still technically considered homeschoolers. So they can either do a part time or full time option. The parents that I talked to of the students at her school, and this is true of many of these programs, they talk about not only this emphasis on standardization and top down testing that they didn't like in conventional schools, deteriorating youth mental health that they found when their kids were stuck inside all day, but also in many cases there were parents saying that particularly in the wake of the pandemic, there seemed to be much more focus on Chromebook centric classrooms. So much sort of tech heavy, much more tech heavy classrooms and curriculum where kids are just kind of sitting behind a screen all day in their classrooms. And maybe that works for some kids and maybe that's what some parents want. But for, for a lot of kids and a lot of parents, that's not what they wanted. And so seeing these alternatives in some cases like this, where it's completely 100% outside in public parks with no screens, is sort of an antidote to what we think of as conventional schooling.

Jenny Erton (27:59)

Yeah, I think what you get from your book Joyful Learning is it's such a highlight of how many different ways there are to do it. And it's so opposite of this very standardized approach to education that has just become more, more and more standardized like you talked about over the last couple decades. My friend Angela Hanscom, she's got this program called Timber Nook and it's, that's a similar thing, you know, where they're offering programming for homeschoolers and my friend Cassie Butter, she's got a Timber Nook program here in Jackson, Michigan. And it's grow like, like you said, the demand is surging. She was so nervous, Carrie, when she opened up a program like, is anybody going to sign up? That more people signed up, that she had to open up another day. And so that's what's happening in these situations. People are looking for alternatives because you say we're pulling out of this school mindset and the schooled mindset. Now this is from unschooled influences parenting. And I wanted to read what this woman named Katie wrote. I think this is so important, she says, because I think some people are scared to take the leap because they're like, oh, my kid annoys me, you know, or, but, but often they're like, well, yeah, because it's like you're trying to get them to do homework at 4:30 when they're exhausted and they've been in school all day and like they didn't sleep well or whatever. She. It's just different. It's different when you're together for most of the time. Katie says, my relationship with my daughter improved dramatically. I realized how many things about her I was trying to gently change to make her more acceptable in school, which she was resisting. I realized how much I wanted to protect her by making her less like herself. Wow. So you've got these parents, they're trying to pull out of this schooled mindset.

Carrie McDonald (29:42)

Really?

Jenny Erton (29:42)

Even a schooled culture. You say the school culture is reflected everywhere in our calendars, it's in our books, it's in our conversations, it's in the Friday night football games, it's in the summer reading programs, it's in all, it's in the student of the month and it's in all of these things. So these parents are pulling out. One of the things I loved about Joyful Learning is you talked about how we can measure it with different metrics. I Love the key KPIs, the key performance indicators. You know, I think people are scared. They're like, well, what if our test scores aren't going to be the same? Or you're like, no, there's a ton of different things that you can use to measure if your program is successful. Can you talk about measuring what matters?

Carrie McDonald (30:24)

Yeah. Well, I will say that there are still a lot of founders, school founders who do use standardized tests and a lot of families who want to see that progress. But I think what I, what I do hear more often than not is that there's less stress around those tests. There's more flexibility in terms of the, the different types of tests that might be used and you know, sort of nothing like what we see in conventional schools, public and private. Because I talk in Joyful Learning about families who left traditional private schools as well because of that same kind of test driven curriculum and find much more freedom outside of those models. But yeah, this is one of my favorite chapters of Joyful Learning, my metrics chapter, Chapter eight, where I look at sort of other ways of measuring success. And you know, one of my favorite stories from that chapter, which I think speaks to this idea and the kind of the whole point of Joyful Learning is are the students happy? Are they successful and eager to be in these programs? And I was thinking about this recently because we just had a big snowstorm here in the northeast and had two days where the local schools were around Greater Boston were canceled. And I went to K12 public schools. And I remember being so excited about snow days when we didn't have to go. And I would have told you I liked school. And I talk about this in Unschooled as well, but I still was so thrilled when we had a snow day and school was canceled. And yet in chapter eight of Joyful Learning, I talk about these micro schools that you'll have students who have a snow day and they're upset that they can't go to school.

Jenny Erton (32:06)

Okay. Yes, our daughter. So we have, we do like, I mean, this is sort of a similar thing. There is a private school near our home that offers a homeschool partnership is what they call it. So I just love that all these alternatives are popping up. And so she can go one day a week. And it's all, it's like elementary age. It's all of the sort of fun classes, right? It's like art and music and gym and recess and lunch and you know, it's like that. And she loves it. It's the day I do my podcast. I mean, I stack em one after the other. I've got this one day, you know, to record as many as possible. And when there's a snow day on a Thursday, I mean, she is in tears.

Sponsor/Advertisement Voice (32:45)

Yes.

Jenny Erton (32:46)

Yeah.

Carrie McDonald (32:47)

Yeah. And, and what I think is really powerful that I talk about in Joyful Learning is that there are students who, you know, hated school before, would have sort of Sunday night stomach aches where they were dreading Monday morning. Some kids dealing with school refusal, just outright not wanting to go because it wasn't a good experience for them for a variety of reasons. And Then they shift to a new educational environment. One of these micro schools are homeschooling collaboratives. And it's like night and day. That's the term that I heard over and over. Night and day. And now you have kids who are so excited to go to school, who are sad on snow days and who, you know, I heard from parents who would say, you know, their kids previously would pretend they were sick so that they would not have to go to school. And now when they're sick, are begging their parents to let them go to school because they just want to be there. And that, you know, that should be the measure of success. Right. Why aren't we talking more about the fact that learning should be joyful, that schooling should be sought after, that kids should want to be in these spaces and not settle for anything less than that?

Jenny Erton (33:59)

Yeah, I think that the, the KPIs, the key is that we say KPIs. Yeah, KPIs. Again, I'm like, I never know what the acronyms. I'm like KPIs. I don't think that that's right. KPIs. Key performance indicators. It really is eye opening if you think about it in terms of like the traditional K12 education. So I'm going to go through a couple of these because you say, look, you know, traditional. I'm actually going to read it right from the book. Traditional public schools are among the most highly regulated and standardized spaces in, in contemporary society, yet they often fail to produce a high quality education to a good number of their students. Regulation and standardized and standardization don't ensure educational quality. And creative schools and spaces shouldn't be required to meet those uniform benchmarks that even many public schools frequently fail to meet. So here's some of the other you say possible KPIs. One, are the parents satisfied? I mean, why aren't we taking pretty much everything we do with children and saying, are the parents satisfied? Are the kids engaged? What's their retention rate? Are they referring others like this Timber Nook program. Right. You know, or like the mom that you just talked about. You're like, it's 100. What is it, 150 at the Carolina Co Op? And then it's growing. I mean.

Carrie McDonald (35:17)

Yeah. And just one location. A thousand across all their locations. Yeah.

Jenny Erton (35:21)

Yes. Yes. In just since COVID So I mean, this has only been a couple of years. Is there unmet demand? Yeah. Like you have to grow. Is there academic progress? So this is still part of it, but it's only one part. What about the social Emotional progress. What about teacher satisfaction? That's huge. What about alumni outcomes? I mean, that's something important to talk about, what's happening with these kids once they leave the program. So I just thought that was a really eye opening, opening way to look at the ways we use children's time. Yeah.

Carrie McDonald (35:56)

And Jenny, I would just add, like, it's also thinking about the fact that we all, you know, have different sort of values and viewpoints. Right. Like we have different types of education philosophies as parents that things that we want for our kids. So for some parents and I talk about this in joyful learning, they might want their kids, you know, sitting behind desks wearing uniforms, maybe going through sort of a classical, traditional curriculum. Other parents might want their kids in a forest school where they are getting muddy all day playing in rivers and streams. Right. And both of those are okay because it's really just up to the parents to know what's right for their kids and the kind of educational environment that will work. Right. Work best for that particular child at that time.

Jenny Erton (36:42)

Yeah. And I think we just are so focused on the only the one indicator, which is academics. Right.

Sponsor/Advertisement Voice (36:50)

These days I'm all about quality over quantity, especially in my closet. If it's not well made and versatile, it's just not worth it to me. That's exactly why I love Quince. The fabrics feel elevated, the cuts are thoughtful, and the pricing actually makes sense. Quince makes high quality wardrobe staples using premium fabrics like 100 European linen, 100 silk, and organic cotton poplin. Their lightweight cotton cashmere sweaters are perfect for the changing seasons. And I'm loving the seasonal colors and prints for spring. These are versatile, well made pieces and that make getting dressed simple. And I appreciate how they do business. Quince works directly with safe, ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen. You're not paying for brand markup or fancy retail stores, just quality clothing. The difference is in the details. The linen is breathable but substantial. The cotton poplin is crisp and holds its shape. Everything is built to hold up season after season, including the stitching, the fit and the fabrics. These are pieces you'll reach for over and over. That Quince cotton cashmere sweater has become my go to. It's light enough for layering, but still feels luxe. And it didn't cost what I thought quality cashmere would. Stop waiting. To build the wardrobe you actually want. You don't need a closet full of options. You need pieces that work. Go to quince.com outside for free shipping and 365 day returns. That's a full year to wear it and love it. And you will now available in Canada too. Don't keep settling for clothes that don't last. Go to Q-U-I-N-C-E.com outside for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com outside.

Jenny Erton (38:15)

You know, you talked in Unschooled about the summer slide and you made this statement, maybe the children never really learned it at all. I was like, oh, that's something to think about. That's something to think about for sure. So the books are fantastic. And I loved even for my own self, like, you know, we lean more unschooling, which is if someone hears that word, it's not. I don't like the word you say. Unschooling is not unparenting. It's really just about learning, letting the child lead, learning. And it doesn't mean that they're sitting around playing video games all day. Like kids actually love learning to your Rocky beach story. Which is like any kid who goes is going to be fascinated by what's there. They don't need a worksheet to guide them. They can let their own fascination guide them. And they're not just going to sit around and do nothing. Like kids are really good at self directed learning. So just a good reminder for me, you know, like you always need those little reminders. I was like, I'm so glad that I read this book. You talk in joyful learning then about five trends that are shaping the future of learning. Can you talk about. So we already talked about the growth of homeschooling and micro schooling. I thought this was really important because the trends, they really do show the opportunity that's out there. So here's another trend. Flexible work arrangements.

Carrie McDonald (39:36)

Yeah, yeah. And I think this is again kind of a post Covid trend where we are embracing of more flexible work schedules, more remote learning. Again, something that was happening before COVID but that's accelerated since then. And more families recognizing that if they have freedom and flexibility in their work schedules where they're not tied to an office building five days a week, eight hours a day, maybe they should be able to grant their children that same freedom and flexibility to not be confined to a conventional school building five days a week. So I think there's more flexibility for parents to be able to identify different educational options for their kids, more openness to homeschooling and microschooling. You know, you mentioned earlier, Ginny, you know, parents being sort of afraid to Think about, you know, ways of approaching education that don't look like the kind of typical traditional classroom. And I think that that's really changing now, especially as there's more homeschoolers and more microschoolers, that this isn't as scary or as new or as different as it might have been even just a few years ago, that it's much more mainstream. And I think more families are willing to kind of expect, experiment and, and take that leap. And many find tremendous satisfaction and fulfillment from choosing one of these alternatives.

Jenny Erton (41:00)

Yeah, and I love that you said, you know, they're having a little bit more flexibility, so they feel good about that. They're like, well, maybe my kid would like this. Or the flexibility allows them to just do really different things with their lives. Like our youngest daughter, she's got a friend, and we're. We're in Michigan, so we're in the big snow dump, right? So she's got this friend, she's like, can the friend come over? And so I texted the mom, she's like, we're in Florida all of January. You know, my parents live down here, so we come stay with my parents for all of January. And I was talking to another friend recently who's like, I'm super interested in homeschooling. Same thing. So, like, we're up in Michigan. She's like, our kids thrive outdoors, and I've got family in Florida, and I could bop back and forth as much as I wanted to if we were a homeschooling family. So that flexibility in work arrangements is really allowing for a lot of freedom for people that, like you said, has just accelerated since 2020.

Carrie McDonald (41:58)

Yeah, and if I can just add to that, too, Jenny, I talked to some of the founders that are Featured. There's over 50 of these entrepreneurial parents and teachers featured in Joyful Learning who've created these new learning communities. Some of them operate as private schools. Often that's because of kind of separate state regulations. Sometimes it's easier to open a private school than it is a homeschool collaborative or vice versa. But some founders who, you know, maybe are choosing between one or the other, and it could go either way for them. You know, I'd say to them, why didn't you decide to become sort of a state recognized private school? Why are you operating as a micro school for homeschoolers with various enrollment options? And many of them, you know, said to me, because families want that flexibility. To your point, families want to be able to travel or to take some time off to visit with grandma when she comes to visit or to take Fridays off and not be confined again by those compulsory school attendance laws that drive both public and private school requirements. So I think that there's just this greater interest in, and demand for flexibility in scheduling for both parents, teachers and students.

Jenny Erton (43:12)

Yeah. What an interesting thing that if you opt out. So talking about freedom, if you opt out and you're like, okay, we're going to be a homeschooling family, or we're going to do this hybrid thing that you have no compulsory attendance requirements, but that if you opt in, you only get 15 days or whatever. I mean, I almost, I've told this before, but, like, I almost hit my limit a couple times in my schooling year. And I thought it was lame because I'm like, why? My grades are fine. You know, I'm like, I had a headache. I stayed home with my mom, you know. But like, they would call and they would be like, you're at 12, you know, if you get one more this semester, you're not going to get credit. I was like, who's in charge of who here?

Carrie McDonald (43:53)

Yeah. And. And that's something else that we've seen more of in the wake of COVID as well, is that is this sort of chronic absenteeism trend and the fact that more and more students since pre pandemic years are absent from school. And, you know, there's all kinds of potential solutions. How do we bring kids back to the classroom? But I think the larger question is, why don't they want to go in the first place? And how is that different from the students that we were just talking about, Ginny, who are thrilled to go to their classroom? Because when we create joyful learning spaces, when we explore, expect joy in learning, kids want to be there.

Jenny Erton (44:32)

Absolutely. Okay, let's talk about some of these people that you have highlighted. One of them is called Prenda. So this one started before the pandemic in 2018 by a dad and grew from seven kids that included his son. So this is what's happening. It's parents who are looking for something for their kids. And now there's a national micro schooling network that has reached roughly 10,000, talking about a surge in demand. So you could talk about whichever ones you want. Prinda was one I wrote about. But if there were a couple specific ones, I know you already talked about the Carolina Kids Co Op, but there's such a variety and, you know, they can stay small or they can grow.

Carrie McDonald (45:11)

There's such a variety. And really, again, sort of Captures the diversity of educational models and methods, different educational philosophies. So the book really traces all kinds of these innovative models from faith based to secular unschooling to classical urban versus rural. So there's all kinds of different approaches and it's really being able to find just the right fit for your, for your child and being flexible and knowing that, you know, there's opportunities for change and iteration as needed. So yeah, I love Prenda. Founded in 2018, as you mentioned by Kelly Smith. This was another one of these micro school networks that was sort of gaining traction before 2020 and has really accelerated since then. So Prenda helps entrepreneurial parents and teachers create a microschool in their homes for their children and members of their community, you know, really quickly and easily. So that's one model I talk about Kaipod Catalyst in the book, another microschool accelerator program that's served hundreds of founders just in the past couple of years that helped founders get from idea to launch quickly, successfully and sustainably to sort of recognize that, you know, running a small business, if you're a former public school teacher, you know, you, you have the education stuff down pat, but may not, you know, have the sort of marketing and billing and payroll and all that that comes with running a small business. And Kaipod Catalyst helps with that. But then there's just sort of the individual stories of parents and teachers who, who've created these programs without sort of a network, a national network or an accelerator program. And I talk about, I opened chapter one of Joyful Learning with the story of Jill Perez who was my very first podcast guest on the Liberated podcast back in 2022. And she was so emblematic of this movement where she was a former public school teacher who when Covid hit and schools shut down her four schools, school age kids were displaced from their classrooms just like so many parents across the country. So she created a pandemic pod that initial year 2020, like again thousands of families across the country and found she really loved it. She loved this pandemic pod and other people in her community really loved seeing these kids kind of out and about and continuing to learn despite disruption. So then she created a micro school in 2021 called Tranquil Teachings Learning center that operates for homeschoolers in New Jersey full time or part time. She recruited teachers from the New York City public schools who were burnt out by a year of pandemic schooling and wanted something different and wanted something flexible. Many of those teachers are still with her today. And now she has about 100 students. And she is again, one of these folks who'll say she values kind of that micro school model rather than becoming a recognized private school.

Jenny Erton (48:08)

Because.

Carrie McDonald (48:09)

Because she wants that freedom and flexibility for her teachers, for her students, and for the families that she's serving.

Jenny Erton (48:16)

Wow. A story after story, and this is really a book that helps you with entrepreneurship. Joyful Learning is because you've got the roadmap here. The roadmap. And you talk about different types of things like the minimal viable product, like, can you get it up and just get started. You talk about entrepreneurship is hard, you know, and there is a chance of failure. And some do fail. And you. And you highlight, you know, some, you know, an experience like that. But then you can also franchise and you can also, within the school system, try and have these like, inter. You call it entrepreneur. Yeah, that was a really interesting chapter.

Carrie McDonald (48:53)

And I think we're seeing more and more of this in district innovation. I've talked to many educators, you know, teachers and principals, and so school district superintendents who are inspired by what's happening outside of conventional classrooms, from homeschoolers and microschoolers, and are starting to bring these ideas into their districts. Many of them will say, I want to stay in the district. I want to try to make change from within. I am integrating now some of these ideas. And in fact, we're starting to see that, for example, in Indiana, there's now the Indiana Microschool Collaborative, which was launched by a superintendent of schools and a rural public school school district in Indiana to create a public micro school network throughout the state. Again, inspired by the work of these education entrepreneurs working outside the system.

Jenny Erton (49:43)

I love it. I love it. It's so much to learn about and so much to be inspired by. And it just gives you the sense that there are a lot of options. There was a sentence in Unschooled that said something like, life isn't standardized, so why should our education be? And furthermore, life is beginning to become even more and more or less. I mean, there was a point where I do feel like, I mean, and I don't think it was all that long, but there was a little bit more of a standardized life, which was like, you go to school, then you go to college, then you get a job, then you retire, then you die. But that doesn't exist anymore. So learning shouldn't be standardized because life isn't standardized. For a parent who's listening to this and they're like, oh, wow, like their mind is spinning, and they're like, this is really Interesting. I'm kind of interested. But they're like, oh, you know, this is kind of new, Right. Even though you're saying what's old is new, this is really what people were doing in the, you know, the pioneers or the colonial days, and probably for human history, right. It's like you're in a tribe of people. You're like, your child is going to learn from all the other people around them. They're going to learn from all the adults that are in the tribe. So we're kind of going back to that. But there are schools like Sudbury Valley that have been around now for decades, and that's an example of an alternative education approach. So I would. I love Sudbury Valley. And talking about these places that, like, your average person would just be, like, shocked jaw to the floor. I've never been. But I talked to this man named Rusty Keeler who does adventure playgrounds, and they brought him in because the students decided they wanted to make an adventure playground and learned that he was, like, the best one at it. And he's like.

Sponsor/Advertisement Voice (51:21)

I went.

Jenny Erton (51:22)

And he's like, there's no curriculum. There's no, you know, set times for class. People can join if they want to or they don't. And a remarkable thing that they said was that there's never been dyslexia at Sudbury Valley, which is just kind of interesting. Like, you talk in your books about. I don't know enough about this, but, like, the sort of forcing sometimes of academics at ages where kids are not ready, sometimes even not ready physically. They talk about that in the Waldorf School, that there can be labels that they have a hard time shedding for a long time. But pretty interesting that they said, no dyslexia at Sudbury Valley. I guess my whole point is this is not new.

Carrie McDonald (52:04)

Yeah, well, and I'm glad you brought up Sudbury Valley. So my kids have always been unconventionally educated. My oldest was homeschooled all the way through and is now a freshman in college. And then my younger kids were homeschooled up until. Until Covid, and then enrolled at the Sudbury Valley School because we're fortunate enough to live in Massachusetts, not that far from Sudbury Valley. And it's just been a wonderful experience. And, yeah, you talk about the case of Danny Greenberg, the founder of Sudbury Valley, back in 1968, who wrote in his book Free at Last, about the fact that he hadn't seen dyslexia. And part of that was that they never forced a child to learn to read. You know, it's a very different educational environment with no kind of top down curriculum or forced classes or testing or homework. And yet young people are able to leave there. They've done lots of great research studies on alumni outcomes.

Jenny Erton (53:05)

Alumni outcomes. That was one of your KPIs.

Carrie McDonald (53:08)

Yeah, yeah. And Peter Gray, who you mentioned, who wrote the forward to my unschooled book, is one of those researchers who's done publish peer reviewed studies on Sudbury Valley graduates and finding that they're living fulfilling lives and are successful in all kinds of different pathways, including what we would think of as conventional pathways becoming doctors or lawyers or engineers, as well as more creative pursuits or entrepreneurial pursuits. So I think that should help families who are maybe wondering about choosing an alternative to conventional schooling that we, we do have, you know, sort of decades of data on students, families choosing alternatives to conventional schooling. Of course we have outcomes on homeschoolers over many decades, realizing that they are able to succeed Beyond K to 12, you know, in college and career in all kinds of meaningful ways.

Jenny Erton (54:05)

Yes. Sudbury Valley opened in 1960s and still exists. We could talk all day. These books are fantastic. They are unschooled, raising curious, well educated children outside the conventional classroom and joyful learning how to find freedom, happiness and success beyond conventional schooling. Can we get one last topic? Because I think, I mean, these are the types of things that start to get your brain spinning. Or like Sudbury Valley, it's been around since the 60s. There are no required classes. Young people pursue their own interests. They spend time on the things most meaningful to them. You wrote this, and this is out of unschooled curriculum is an artifact of an earlier time. These are great books. Carrie, one of the things that you said was that mandated seat time is a relic of the past. So for someone who couldn't wrap their head around that for even a second, they'd be like, curriculum. Because even when you become homeschoolers, a lot of times it's like, what's the curriculum? In fact, somebody asks our 9 year old the other day, it's like, oh gosh, this is kind of embarrassing, they said, because a lot of times when you say you homeschool, then people will say, what curriculum do you use? And she said, what's curriculum?

Carrie McDonald (55:16)

I was like, yeah, okay. Yeah. And I think, I mean, I go through a whole chapter about curriculum, kind of the history of curriculum and unschooled. But I think the larger point that I make in unschooled and talking about self directed education is not that curriculum is inherently bad. It's just that it needs to be sort of self chosen. And when young people are, you know, choosing a curriculum or are taking supplemental classes because they're kind of in pursuit of a goal that, that works for them, then curriculum's fine. And, you know, you hear this from homeschoolers and students at Sudbury Valley School, for example, they might be taking dual enrollment courses at a local community college or online courses like AP courses and so forth, because they have a plan for, you know, college admissions or a career that they want to pursue. So they're choosing curriculum in pursuit of their own goals, not because someone else is deciding for them what they must know and do at a certain time.

Jenny Erton (56:18)

So if that's one of your maybe hang ups of like, I don't know what curriculum I would choose if I started my own thing. There's a lot, the books, so many. Really, really well, really well. It will open your eyes. I mean, I was so glad I read both. And like I said, I mean, I've got. We've got kids all that. We've done the same thing, homeschooled all the way through. And it was just such a good reminder, Carrie, of the choices we've made. And I just, I mean, I came away like, pumped up, you know, Good, good. I'm so glad. Both books. So, yeah, I mean, even just a statement, you won't screw up. Your kids. Your kids are gonna be fine, Fine. So here we go. Oh, and you. I mean, you use this phrase structural violence. This is in Unschooled, where you talk about how it's unsettling how children at young ages can be dismissed, quieted, belittled, judged. You told the story about your own self. They're like talking, talking, talking. The teacher's like, I'm gonna throw you out the window. Oh, these things actually can really affect. And you go through sort of big and little. So if you are looking for something different, you provide this this way. And especially if there's nothing by you that floats your boat and fits your situation, you can start your own and it can become a business. And then you're teaching your kids about entrepreneurship. It's just a win, win, win. So, Carrie, huge congrats. The books are called Unschooled and Joyful Learning. You also have your liberated podcast and you write at forbes and the 74 people can find the Liberated podcast@liberated podcast.com. we always end our show with the same question. What is a favorite memory from your

Carrie McDonald (57:50)

childhood that was outside a favorite memory? Well, I remember I was so lucky that my grandparents lived just two doors down from me. And so I remember my grandfather had an above ground pool and I would spend my summers walking down the street barefoot. I still remember, you know, my feet burning in the, in the heart of summer and, and heading down there and swimming, you know, all day with my grandfather watching or my mom watching. And just that freedom of being outside and having all that unstructured playtime was so formative for me.

Jenny Erton (58:29)

I love it. Carrie, Such an honor. And I am thrilled to have read these books and just love these reminders that there's a lot of options out there. Freedom, freedom, freedom. And there's freedom for children to learn without coercion. And there's freedom for us to be a family. Families where family is sovereign. And that we can really bless the other families around us if we walk forward in these paths and possibly become entrepreneurs. You walk everybody through it. So thank you so much for being here.

Carrie McDonald (59:02)

Well, thanks for all the incredible work you do. So really, really was such a pleasure to be here.