← The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 743: Delight Changes Everything | Summer Joy Gross, The Emmanuel Promise
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- [00:01]
Jenny Eric
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- [01:10]
Host of 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
out there at the best price. Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast.
- [01:16]
Jenny Eric
My name is Jenny Eric.
- [01:17]
Host of 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
I'm a founder of 1000 Hours Outside and I read a book I loved and then reached out to the author and was hoping, hoping, hoping she would say yes. Summer Joy Gross, author of the Emmanuel Promise and also founder of the Presence Project podcast. Her she's got a Patreon, an incredible retreat that she does every year in September. Summer Welcome.
- [01:37]
Summer Joy Gross
Thank you Jenny. It is so special to be able to sit with you and to hear what's coming up, what's bubbling up and the questions that you have and to talk with your amazing audience that you have cultivated. It's just such a privilege.
- [01:56]
Host of 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
Well, I'm excited. There's a lot to talk about. I took a lot of notes on your book. This is about how our, you know, as an overall premise, our childhood experiences can really affect our relationship with God and we may not even know that that's happening. That sort of as an overall premise, but a lot of things to learn in the book and a lot of things as a parent to be aware of for your own children. A dear friend of mine, Nicole, is the one who told me about your book and so I didn't even tell her that we are having this interview. It'll be A surprise. And she's the one who told me that this book has really been so in, so instrumental for her and her probably in her. Well, I don't, I don't know. I'm talking for her. But anyway, she told me about the book and I loved it. And I think that it's a definitely one that parents should read, especially if you're wanting to make sure that you know about attachment and then how that it's going to affect your kids spiritual life. So I would love if we could kick it off with your story. Your story is really an interesting one, Summer, because you talk about how you didn't have any of the what people call as big T trauma, like where there was a divorce or something like that or a death or those type of bigger things, bigger events. But you moved at age 10. And it's such an interesting story, Summer, because it wasn't anything that your parents did on purpose. It was your dad, you know, having his own commitments and he's, you know, he told someone he's going to be a doctor in this community and so then he's fulfilling his commitments. And I talked to a man one time who said he was 4 and his parents then had a set of twins and he was like that, that really shook his life up. And it wasn't, they weren't being mean. He's like, and I love my twin siblings, but it really shook up his life. And so these things can sometimes happen even when there's no nefarious reasoning. So can you talk about that time you pack up the U haul, you drive from Maine to Ohio and you end up in a community where everyone already has a community?
- [03:55]
Summer Joy Gross
Yeah, that's such a good word, isn't it? Because when we move to an area like say during college, no one has community yet. And so it's easy to make friends, it's easy to kind of jump into relationship. But when you're moving into an area like you said, where there's lots of families who are super connected and it's hard to jump into those commute communities. So I think it goes back a little bit further. That was the trigger event, but it goes back further. I was born in Italy when my dad was going to medical school and my mom had to go back to teach right away. And again, like you said, it was just stuff they had to do in order to support a family. And, and so mom had to go to work right away. So she's working really long hours. Dad became my attachment person. He took care of me and then later he had to leave for a period of time to take a big exam for about eight weeks. And I lost my attachment person. And so I believe that. That those moving episodes make me feel like I'm losing my identity. I moved again recently, about a year and a half ago, and I knew it was going to be hard again. And. And it was. And I had to go back to some really young places and allow the Lord to minister to me in that place and. And be gentle with myself and compassionate as I wait for relationship to. To build and that type of thing. So those trigger events can still kind of. They can trigger us as adults as well sometimes. But. Yeah, that. What I learned about moving is that it's the fourth most traumatic event for a child beyond death, divorce, and trying to remember there was one more. And then moving was one of the most traumatic things a child could experience because their entire world is upended. And all the places. One of the things I think about is all the places where I knew how to get my needs met in the bat, in that other place with the community that we used to have no longer is available. And so you have all these raw places, all these raw longings, looking for a new place for your needs to be met. And I. I think it's a lot like when a mom has a baby and a couple months later she's like, I'm ready to do it again. Because there's something in her mind that kind of forgets how dramatic Bertha is. I think people forget how traumatic moving is.
- [07:18]
Host of 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
Yeah.
- [07:19]
Summer Joy Gross
Until they have it themselves again.
- [07:21]
Host of 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
Yeah. And just how different things can really affect a child that are not on purpose. Then you even talked about you moved as well. So it's like you had a church situation and you ended up moving from Michigan. That's where we're at. You were in South Haven. That's like the cream of the crap of Michigan over there. I mean, that's incredible. You even wrote in the book you lived where people vacation, which is absolutely the truth. Then you moved, and then it was a quite a nightmare situation where the job wasn't even there. And it was. It was a mess. And so these things happen in life, and parents are kind of just trying to hold things together and they have to work, and then kids can get lost in the shovel, and then that can affect how we relate to God. I wanted to read, because you're such a great writer. The book is called the Emmanuel Promise. So you end up in Celeryville, just. Just like an interesting name of A place with tall farm grown people. They're very tall, they all play basketball and they just already have a village. And I have noticed in my life, Summer, I don't have any sisters and not my sister in laws are precious, but I have no sisters. And I find that almost exclusively my friends have no sisters as well. Almost exclusively. Not everyone, but you know, it's. Some people already have their aunts and their uncles and their cousins around and they don't need you. And so you do. It's such good writing. You say, you know, they made fun of your cloth and you know, so you come home and you say. When I got home that afternoon, I hid the overalls in the bottom of my toy chest along with any hope of an easy adjustment. I was bullied one small dig at a time. And where other children may have been able to laugh it off or launch it back, I had no such shield, no such skill. Every night I strategized how I would build bridges. Maybe I would compliment a girl on her new shirt from the Limited. I would pray for a smile, pray for a friendship. I contemplated what brought an extra chocolate chip cookies in my lunch to hand out. Nice Became my coping mechanism, my strategy and my surprise attack. But the connections never lasted very long. So you end up in this place where they don't need. They don't need you, right? And you're an outsider and no one does it on purpose. But that really does eventually start to affect your sense of self. So can you talk to the parent to. I guess what do we need to know about that? Because things like this happen in life, right? Maybe there's a death in the family or there is a divorce or a move for a job. I mean our world is pretty unstable, right? Like a lot of people are losing their jobs because of AI. What should we be aware of? Or we have another child or we have a set of twins and someone. The older kid is dethroned. I mean there are these sort of major events that happen. What is your advice for parenting our kids through those?
- [10:10]
Summer Joy Gross
That's a good question. I'm going to think about my mom and how loving she was with my kids. When we had a big move one time, we ended up losing a position that was supposed to be there. I talk about it in the book a tiny bit. And so we move in with my parents and that was right after South Haven and the kids are just upended and my mom invited the kids to finger paint their emotions and to tell her how they were feeling. One of the things that I've learned from all of this work in attachment is that children cannot regulate themselves until they're about six years old. Think about that. Wow. They don't have the ability to regulate emotions. They need an adult mind in order to help the child to calm. And so instead of getting frustrated with the child that something feels really big to them, recognizing that we need to bring comfort and love and peace into that environment first before we can bring in any teaching or any training or discipline or anything like that. That helping them to calm and to know that they're loved is so essential.
- [11:50]
Host of 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
So your mom, she knew it was like, you know, I think it's so easy as an adult to gloss over and to just be like, oh, well, people move sometimes, or different things happen in life, and so the kid will adjust. But your book really shows, you know, that living through this bullying and being in a spot where there really wasn't a space for you. You say, after four years of this, hyper vigilance was carved into. Into my nervous system. And this then affects you really for, you know, there were. It could affect you for the remainder of your life for how you deal with other people and how you relate with them. And so even just this fact of understanding what might be a really big deal for a child. You wrote, every experience we have with our main caregiver creates expectations for future care. In fact, it sets up our expectations for care for all relationships going forward. That's a big deal. You talk about then how with our children. So that was, I think, a great example with your mom is like, being aware, understanding that this is a big deal for these kids. And what can we, you know, let's talk about it and let's finger paint. One of the other things you talk about, too, is as parents and caregivers, how we relate to our kids on a daily basis. Like, even when they walk into the
- [13:11]
Summer Joy Gross
room, Delight is essential. What. That's one of the things that I've learned through this whole process that's been so helpful, is we will not attach to someone that we believe just tolerates us. But if someone's eyes light up when we walk into the room, then we feel welcomed and. And that our true self is desired in the room. We don't have to figure out, like I was saying, I felt like I had to kind of become a chameleon or figure out what people wanted in the room, take the temperature in the room. When we know that we're delighted in, we can come in as our full self, knowing that we're accepted and that we're loved. So delight is absolutely essential. There's a book called the Six Needs of Every Child that I talk about in the Secure chapter, the chapter on secure attachment. And that's a really interesting book, Jenny. And I think every parent and grandparent should read that book as well. It's super, super practical as far as thinking through attachment needs and what they are. But one of the major attachment needs, six needs is delight.
- [14:42]
Host of 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
Yeah. Wow. Well, and I loved how you related this. So obviously, as you know, if you read your story, you can relate to being bullied or feeling like you have to earn love and friendship and then that can translate to your spiritual walk. And this delight was another example that you gave where you say, how did your dad greet you when you walked into a room as a child? And that might affect how you think God greets you. And the words that you use, which I think are really powerful, are, well, this one in particular is disinterest. And maybe you're expecting disinterest because God's attention is limited. And so you could see how if that was your experience with your primary caregivers, they weren't really interested. I mean, it definitely made me think, do my kids think I'm too busy or I'm not interested when they're around? And then I would love to talk about that transition because I've not really read much about this. You know, you read about trauma in childhood and you can obviously understand that that can affect someone's relationships like spouse relationships or parenting, you know, parent with their child, relationships as a relationships with co workers. But this book really focuses on how those early childhood experiences can affect our relationships with God.
- [16:00]
Summer Joy Gross
There is a video I want you to watch on YouTube and it's called Still Face. And this is a video. So I want you to watch the one that Edtronic did with Dr. Sue Johnson. Dr. Sue Johnson was a marriage specialist and Edtronic was a child development and attachment specialist. And they showed side by side how when a child experienced still faith from an adult or from their caregiver, they're used to interacting with the parent and pointing in the parent points and smiling. And the the parent reacts with a similar facial expression. It's called mirroring. So they're used to that. But Edtronic invites the mother to kind of look back at the child with still face, no emotion on their face. And the child slowly gets frustrated, angry, confused, and then completely dissolves. Good thing she's in. She's a year old. Good thing she's in a high chair, you know, with a bit of a seatbelt on, because she completely loses at that point. But what's so interesting, if you watch the video with Dr. Sue Johnson, she shows how that happens in a marriage relationship as well. Side by side, that when we experience still face from our spouse, we slowly have that feeling of, this person isn't interested in me. They're not connected. I don't know how to get their attention. I must not be important to them. You know, we go through this line of reasoning, line of thinking, and end up having despair. And so I think when people watch that still face, they start to recognize, oh, okay, this is what my child needs. And Jenny, I just want to tell you that when I teach this, I. I have the privilege of going and doing this with, teaching this at retreats, women's groups, that type of thing. And I sometimes will have everyone watch that still face video. And women have this visceral reaction when they watch it. Oh, almost like they've been kicked in the gut or tears. Like they can feel what that baby or that or that woman is feeling. And I'm wondering, my dear, if that's what we're doing with our children as we're on our phones all the time texting, if we're ending up giving them still face because they don't have an understanding of what we're doing. And so it looks to them like we're disinterested in them. Our interest is all there. I also want to give some encouragement that since attachment is created one call and response at a time, so one cry in response, one need met at a time, building an expectation or a trust of future care that if. That if parents meet that child's needs at least 60% of the time, that it's a very good possibility of a secure attachment. So I think that's really important because we can hear this and get really distinct discouraged and think, there's just no way I can be the perfect parent. And we can't. We're human. We've got limited resources. But 60%, that means that, you know, 35 to 40% of the time, if we miss it somehow, that there's still a grace.
- [20:30]
Host of 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
Yeah, yeah, that is really encouraging. And also it's just such an important reminder that the child may be experiencing that feeling of a still face.
- [20:42]
Jenny Eric
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- [21:20]
Host of 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
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- [21:22]
Jenny Eric
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- [21:36]
Host of 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
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Jenny Eric
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Host of 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
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Jenny Eric
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- [24:04]
Host of 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
so then you take all of these concepts in, you relate them to how we relate with God. And everybody who listens is a believer in God. But maybe they should be. I don't know what to say there. Well, this lady named Dr. Meg Meeker wrote this book about raising boys. And in there she just said, believing in God is good for boys and it's good for little girls. And like, I asked her why she put that in the book because it was about, you know, like, it's good for kids to rough and tumble. And then she was like, it's good for kids to believe in God. And she said, well, research shows actually that, you know, a belief in God is really helpful for humans. So you relate a lot of these childhood experiences to how we view God. And I thought this was so deep. You say you asked this question. How many of us experience God as still face? How often do we believe he's emotionally unavailable in the middle of our being, tossed by great waves that we have to yell, repeat our needs ad nauseam, find the right words that will act or prove our worthiness. Our greatest fear is being abandoned, that God will be absent or asleep when we need him most. Our deepest need then becomes a question. Will I be safe and soothe and secure and seen when life has me flat on the floor? Many of us believe God's love is conditional based on our Performance. At what point did you start to connect these attachment? I mean, I didn't learn much about attachment until I was an adult and probably haven't read much until about kind of recently. At what point did you relate this attachment? Because you explained it all in here, like insecure, disorganized, insecure, avoidant. You explain all of these attachment styles. I don't even know if that's what you would use. Okay, when did you relate that to how we relate with God?
- [26:00]
Summer Joy Gross
So as a spiritual director, that is what became the seed for all of this for me. I was reading Kurt Thompson, Dr. Kurt Thompson, who is a premier neuroscientist, and he has a book called Anatomy of the Soul, which is a required reading, I believe, for just being a human. But Anatomy of the Soul has a chapter on attachment, and that was one of his lines of the attachment that we are given, as in the first three years, even two years of our life, then becomes the neural pathways for every other relationship going forward, even our relationship with God. It may even be a direct quote by him. There are other books. Relational Spirituality is a book that a lot of people in seminaries are reading. There's quite a few books that make this connection. But mostly because the truth is we come into this world with that kind of a tabula rasa, without any relational neurocircuitry. And our ability to connect to that caregiver and to know that our needs are going to be met tomorrow because they were met today, then becomes our secure base by which we begin to trust others and begin to trust God. What is a thing, interesting things for me personally has been the fact that our parents and we ourselves are human and imperfect. But then our God is absolutely perfect and he has unlimited capacity. So as humans, we have limited capacity. Our parents had limited capacity. I know precious, precious folks whose who had siblings who were handicapped, say. And so there wasn't a whole lot of capacity for their needs in the room. And because they were always concerned about this child's handicap and their needs. But we have a God who has unlimited capacity for all of his children's needs. So that's one of the huge shifts that I had to make in my own brain was the fact that it's easy for me to think that because that person has cancer that they deserve God's attention, but that my needs, I have to weigh my needs to decide whether they're important enough to bring to God. And so the idea that God has unlimited capacity to hold all of his children's needs with Tenderness has completely revolutionized my relationship with God. So that I don't have to feel like I have to wave my hands or say the right things in order to get God's attention. That his face is shining towards me at all times.
- [29:41]
Host of 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
Yeah.
- [29:42]
Summer Joy Gross
Every time I walk in the room, he's already looking towards me. And I don't have to convince Him.
- [29:50]
Host of 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
Yeah.
- [29:51]
Summer Joy Gross
That I'm worthy enough for him to spend time on.
- [29:56]
Host of 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
Oh, Summer. What a book. It would really be a great one to read with your kids as they're getting into those probably, like, preteenish years. And, you know, you talked about you're 10 years old and dealing with kids at school, and so these concepts that God delights in you. You wrote there was never one second when God was still faced in your life. His face has always been shining toward you, even when you are a tiny mass of cells. So one of the things that you talk about is that God is with us. I mean, this is the book, the Emmanuel Promise. God is with you. But you say it's not just a tagline. He is actually with you. His ear is open to your cry. He is not a fault. He's not far off. He's right here in the room. You talk about this idea of practice, like having sensory reminders that God is there. Like, what if. What do you do when you don't feel like it? Feel like he's there.
- [30:53]
Summer Joy Gross
Yeah. This is really interesting because CS Lewis talked about this quite a bit in his work, just recognizing that sometimes you don't feel like God is present, but that doesn't change the fact that he is He. And so it takes a while. And there's a writer who was read a lot in the 1990s called Leanne Payne, and she would invite all of her people to say to themselves, often, you are here. You are here. And to trust the truth of that, before they had the sense of emotion, of that. Because it's so easy, isn't it, to feel discouraged. I think a lot of us move around in the world as if we're orphans, as if we've been abandoned because we don't have that sense that God is attentive or accepted, accessible, responsive, and engaged towards us. And so, yes, I love the idea of using tangible things as a reminder. That seemed to be something that the Lord kept bringing me back to. And Frank Lalback talked about doing some of this. He was a missionary in the 1920s in the Philippines. But one of the things I love to do myself is to have a big jarred candle on top of my island, my kitchen island. And in the mess of everything that's going on, sometimes in my kitchen, you're still seeing that flickering.
- [32:59]
Host of 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
Yeah.
- [33:00]
Summer Joy Gross
Out of the corner of your eye, you see that flickering. And it helps you to remember, oh, yeah, he is here. And sometimes that helps me in my parenting remember, oh, yeah, he is here. In the middle of what feels like it's coming up, like an anger response or a frustrated response. I'll remember, oh, yeah, he is here. And that can shift my way of thinking or. Or say, even having that flicker in the television room. What am I going to watch that the Lord, that. I know the Lord is present in this room with me. What? But for me, that flicker, it became so important. I. I sent the Lord saying, we need to really get this into your brain. So for 21 days, I carried that around with me throughout the house. I'd put it in my bedroom while I was folding towels. I would put it in the. The living room while we were all sitting around. And it was just a really helpful, constant reminder about God's presence and helping to build constancy, spiritual object constancy. Because you know that children, when they're about 2 years old, that you're playing hide and seek with them and you put this blanker blanket over your head, and they're so funny because they kind of wander out of the room as if they don't even know you're in there because they don't have a sense of object constancy yet. We desperately need a sense of object constancy, spiritual object constancy, that God is present in the room.
- [35:01]
Host of 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
I loved that you related it to in the Bible. God said a lot of times to remember, remember this. And I got to talk to this archeologist. She was like a biblical archaeologist, and she was talking about how, you know, they would stack stones. And back then you hardly saw in nature, man made things. And so that would be something that you really noticed. It would really stand out if there was this stack of stones, because you would know, oh, someone put that there. And then it would be like, well, why did they put that there? And it would foster all these conversations. And it will be a reminder. And I met, I. I met. I interviewed this woman once who actually use stones. Like, you know, if you live over in Grand Haven, there's all those, like, cool beaches, and, you know, you got a couple stones, and she would write on them answered prayers. And then she had a whole basket of them in her living room, you know, so it's like when you get to the spot where you think God's not going to answer, but she's like, I have like a testament to all of the times that he's answered in the past with this physical object. So you wrote we're sensory people. We experience the world through sight, sound, touch, sense scent and taste. And so to to work on having these sensory reminders of the truth of God's presence. I love the CS Lewis quote. You put it in the book. He brought him up just a moment ago. God's presence is not the same as feeling God's presence. And he may be doing most for us when we think he is doing least. So those are some fantastic ideas of things that you can incorporate into your family's life. The book is called the Emmanuel Promise. It's got all of these ideas in there.
- [36:38]
Jenny Eric
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Host of 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
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Jenny Eric
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Host of 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
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Host of 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
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Jenny Eric
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- [39:03]
Host of 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
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- [39:05]
Jenny Eric
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- [40:43]
Host of 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
out there at the best price. You talk a lot about nature. Ironically, I just read this book. It was a fiction book called. Oh, well, I read a couple of them by these authors named Brad Thor and Ward Larson. They had this book that came out actually today. It's called Cold Zero. And just this fiction book, like a thriller, you know, like, I don't know, spies and all that type. Anyway, a couple of these things. The location is Switzerland. One of the books was called Lions of Lucerne. I like, I've never heard of this place in my life. And then in your book, you've been there. So you, you have all of these nature references in your book. First of all, you spent four months in Switzerland in the Lake Lucerne chalets. I was like, I never, I would have never even heard of that. I'm like, but now I have an understanding from these fiction books. I read about the, you know, the rugged Alps and all the skiing that happens there. But you talk a lot about speaking about God's presence and being aware of God's presence and sensory reminders and we're trying to get outside. You talk so much about nature in this book, the Emmanuel Promise. So can you, from a spiritual side, give parents encouragement on how this can help kids to calm down? Nature can be there when you feel like your life is falling apart. Creation sings God's praises. You talk about how it changed. Being outside changes our relationship with time. Jesus gave all sorts of messages that were related to the earth. This is really important for kids and families.
- [42:19]
Summer Joy Gross
Yeah, I feel so grateful to have been able to live in some beautiful places or visit some beautiful places and work really hard to get to some beautiful places. For me, running water is a really big deal. And in that time period, those four years that I was in that junior high, we lived next to a stream. The eastern branch of the Huron river went through our property. And there was, there were these huge cement blocks that the, the owner who had built the house had put into the stream. And so it created a little bit of a waterfall. And I would sit out there and it was as if all that happened during the day was able to kind of wash off and I was able to remember who I was again with the gift of I don't know if you've ever heard of like brown noise or kind of the sound of running water is a powerfully nurturing or quieting sound. So for me, I love to find waterfalls. I love to, to sit by water. My husband and I will go fishing and he'll fish like all day long. He's been fly fishing for 30 years and so he's become a bit of a fly fishing guide for all of our family and friends and that type of thing. But for half of the day he'll put a, you know, up in the trees for me and I'll just lay in there and hear the stream going past. And there's no WI fi and my brain can rest sometimes for the first time in, in a while. So for me, being outdoors without WI fi, close to water is the best kind of sabbatical Sabbath rest so that my nervous system can find baseline again.
- [44:43]
Host of 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
I loved how you wrote about it. And, and what's interesting is that these places, they can be a point of connection between people. So, you know, I'm, I'm like, oh, you know, I read the book and you're like, from Grand Haven. I was like, oh, we've had some of our best memories there. Or I'm pretty sure we play in the Huron river because we're in Michigan and, and Michigan's connected to Ohio. And it's, it might be the same Huron river, you know, that we go sit by, that runs all the way into Ohio, Celeryville. I'll have to look it up. I'm not sure. But you know, you talked about floating down the Chattahoochee river. And so people who are listening that live in that area, it's like, oh, there's this connection through place. And you talked about, we come to the river to find a sanctuary of time for five hours. We choose a different relationship with time. And you say that when we are in these spaces, it's so easy to become consumed with a thousand details that make up our life. But in these spaces, it's a reminder that God is present. Like a steady stream. You wrote, all of creation sings God's praises. And when surrounded by the queenly white sycamore, the scraggly grandfather heron, and the dip and swirl of swallows, we are able to join the river's slow song of worship. And you talk about how, you know, when the church is falling apart, I can still go and watch the clouds go by and I can still go run my hands through the grass. So the. There's beautiful things in here. About nature, about prayer, walking. So it was perfect for this audience. I loved reading about it, and I also loved reading about how when we have a secure attachment or we work at becoming more securely attached, it helps us to understand our own needs, our body's basic messages. So you wrote children who are securely attached. I thought this was a really big deal. Maybe this is why so many people are struggling. Summer Children who are securely attached are intuitive in seeking care. Are they hungry? They're going to run to mom. Are they frustrated? They're going to run to mom. You know, it's like they know they need something and they know to go get it and where to get it from. And you can see how if you don't have that and you feel like you've got to use the phrase grid it out, that we're turning off our body's messages. It kind of just seems like we're a culture of people who have turned off their bodies messages and everyone's kind of suffering. So can you talk about relearning our instincts and how to listen to our needs?
- [47:27]
Summer Joy Gross
Oh, man. Yeah, it's. I'm. I'm still learning, right? I'm still learning to listen, especially in creating margin and more space for rest. I think in our American culture, we're so into speed and kind of going down a list, like finishing our to do list, that we don't know how to listen to our need for rest. One of my favorite books recently has been, I think it's Matthew Clark's why We Sleep Real or Matthew Walker why We Sleep. I think thought it was absolutely fascinating. He's done some really cool podcast episodes with Andrew Huberman on. On why We Sleep. But I. I recognize in myself that I'm always trying to fit one more thing in instead of listening to the way that I was created. We were literally created for any eight hours of sleep. And instead of getting frustrated with ourselves that we need so much rest, we can kind of fall back into the. The truth that we can listen to ourselves and that we function so much better on deep rest. So I'm just really interested in the fact that we're always trying to override our bodies. You know, we're always trying to forget that we're human. One of the things that one of my favorite scriptures is that he remembers we are but dust. And for me, that doesn't seem like a negative. It seems like a positive that he knows how we're made, that none of this humanness surprises him. He had to rest himself. I mean, we think About Jesus. And when he had ministered a lot to people, he got into a boat and he took a nap. Isn't that interesting? That's what he. He knew what his body needed and he took a nap. And the disciples were concerned because there was a storm coming up. But Jesus was like, this is. I know what my body needs. I need rest.
- [50:11]
Host of 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
Yeah, you had this beautiful information, I guess, outlook about looking at our neediness. Because you say many of us struggle just to recognize our needs. And even the idea of having a need give us a rash. But this does make a lot of sense. You say neediness or our, Our. Our needs. Those are what intertwine us with other people. That's how we build relationships.
- [50:40]
Summer Joy Gross
If there is anything I could teach your audience or, or let them know is that their neediness is not a problem. Their neediness is not a bad word. Needs are actually what connects us with or attaches us to others. When our needs are met by God, when we allow them to come up to the surface before the Lord and we're comforted, then attachment is enabled to be established. When we allow our needs to come up before our spouse, or when we allow them to be vulnerable to us and we meet them there, listening deeply and letting them know that we honor them for. For the needs that they have, that there's this feeling of being seen, safe, soothed and secure.
- [51:49]
Host of 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
What a different way to look at needs. Your attachment is developed because. Because of needs, a need that is expressed and filled. Your cry becomes invitation and the response builds the trust. Can you talk about this thought of kind of going back in your mind to these earlier experiences? And you were talking in particular about being in the fifth grade and all these kids are already friends with each other and they're being mean, and you say, where was God in the room? And you kind of work through internally that he was there, he was there in the room on your behalf. And that kind of helped you to process that.
- [52:31]
Summer Joy Gross
It seemed like, yeah, so it's a invitation to pray and to. To kind of look back in our. Our memories, sometimes even into our difficult memories. And we can do this with another person as well, to look back in those memories and then to ask Jesus, Jesus, where were you in the room when I was going through that? And just to sit and wait and ask the Lord to give you a picture of where he was in the room and, and how he. And asking the Holy Spirit too, to. To help you to see Christ as healer or Christ as the light of the world walking into a dark place. Or Christ as the one who pushes over tables because he's angry at injustice, walking into your memory where you needed someone to push over tables and to say, I'm here, I'm angry at what's happening to you and I am going to be the light of the world right here in this room for you.
- [54:01]
Host of 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
It's a. That's a powerful imagery because I do think that. Well, I guess I know I can't speak for other people, but you look back sometimes at your experiences and you think, I was alone or there was no one there for me. Whether you're a child or an adult, things can come up. And to ask God, where are you in this room and how do you feel about what happened to me? And he wrote, the cross was there. It was there in this fifth grade room. And somehow that message endowed me with value. The power of the cross completely shifted my emotions. In the present, I was secure. My internal earthquake ended in his presence. Jesus, where are you? In the room on my behalf. Christ is here. He who holds the world in the palm of his hand is present. What a book. What a book. Summer. Of course I can see why my friend Nicole was like, hey, hey, you should read this one. What a book. Can we wrap it up with Nona? You had this beautiful writing about Nona. And the writing, it just kind of makes you feel like how you want to be. But also I think, I guess in relation to the whole conversation, like this is also how God is. Nona had ample time. She was never in a rush. When I had sleepovers, Grandpa would begin banging pans, making breakfast for six while Nona was still asleep. I crawl in bed with her, resting in the still warm indentation his large body had left. And pulling the covers up, you talked about how she didn't need to be impressed. Nona, she didn't need to be fond over. Her love was a spacious one. Even as she was slipping into the darkness of Alzheimer. She kissed me on the cheek, her peach fuzz covered cheek against my flick. That's how mine is too. Like the other day, my kids were like, I will pull out your teeth, chin hairs. And that's what we did. They're like, I can't get it. Another one was like, I'll try. Okay. She would whisper, I love you sweetheart. She held that tender pose, one hand cradling my face. Those were the last words I ever heard her speak. And last words have a way of echoing down. Her love never ebbed and waned. It was never fickle or self focused. It was contained as if she was the sun and we were all looking up. Stop warming ourselves. And if that was the view you had of God, that he has ample time, he's never in a rush, that would. He's never fickle or self focused. His love never ebbs or wanes. I mean, that would change your whole life. Can you talk about having a person like that in your life and the power of it and maybe how we could try and be that for others?
- [56:39]
Summer Joy Gross
Oh, what a great question. Yeah. Nona was so beautiful. She never had a normal career and yet when you came to her house, she was full of delight. And she had all this time she. She would get down on the floor with us and have tea parties. She would always go out and try to find garage sale clothes for our dolls. She was just extremely present. I want to be that kind of grandparent for my grandkids. Extremely present. My mom is like that as well. Just whoever is in the room, her. Her eyes are lit up and she's completely focused on them. That can change a child's world. And I know that it's been an incredible gift for me. That's one of the desires, the deep desires that I want to see in all of us in the world that it's so easy, isn't it, for us to be so focused on our tasks or so focused on the horrors of this world that we're not actually seeing each other. But what if we cultivate time periods, cultivate meals, cultivate moments in which we're completely present with another person, that we have space and time and we're. Yes, attentive to their story, whatever they're bringing with them that could change the world.
- [58:42]
Host of 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
Yeah, it sure could. Summer, you are a delight and this book is phenomenal. I cannot recommend it more highly. The Emmanuel Promise. Discovering the security of a life held by God. You have your own podcast, you say start at the beginning. The Presence Project podcast. You have your Patreon. I'll make sure. I'll put the links there where you. You'll go live. People can spend time with you in these small group settings. And then in September, 40 people could come spend time with you at the Long Table Retreat. I know you're on social media as. As well. Is there anything I've missed? You have a thirst for God.com that's now gonna find most of it or
- [59:20]
Summer Joy Gross
on Instagram at rev. Summer Joy.
- [59:25]
Host of 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
Yeah. So people can find you and find all of these incredible things that you help. You help people with their. The practical things you Call it Monday Morning Practical. Monday Morning Practical. And that's even in the book as well. It's like, how can we do this practically? You had. There's nine chapters on practical pathways for attachment with God. You have this quote that said a 15 minute prayer session was as effective as two hours of sleep. You're talking about things like solitude and silence and just. I mean, it's very practical. You know, it's. It's very. You learn a lot. But it's also very practical for your day to day life. So I'll make sure. I'll put all those links in the show notes. Summer, we always end our show with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside.
- [60:07]
Summer Joy Gross
I think it's that the. The woods around the house where we lived. In the spring, there were trillium, white trillium that just carpeted the woods. And I just remember stepping through there as if I had found a fairy wood. There was, like I said, there was that stream and it would create a bit of an island and you could go over to the island. And like I said, the island was just carpeted with trillium. And I just thought the world was full of magic and wanted to give that to my children to find those magic places and give them a sense of wonder. There's so much harshness in the world. I wanted to fill their minds with wonder.
- [61:07]
Host of 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
Yeah. And that was in Ohio.
- [61:10]
Summer Joy Gross
That was in Ohio. Northern Ohio.
- [61:13]
Host of 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
Interesting. Isn't that interesting? It's the place that you didn't really want to be and yet there was still something beautiful for you there.
- [61:20]
Summer Joy Gross
There was an island. I'm telling you, our house was three acres of, for me, an island of becoming an island where I could explore and grow my. We had a pond in the front yard and my brother would just fill it. Fill tubs with frogs in there. And we just all could adventure on that three acre her island of our. Of our existence.
- [61:56]
Host of 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
Wow. And so even though this was. This was a time period that was of upheaval really hard, it was like God was still there. He was still there.
- [62:05]
Summer Joy Gross
So much beauty. Yes. So much beauty.
- [62:09]
Host of 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
Yeah. What an answer. Summer is such an honor. Thank you so much for saying yes. I love your book and I love everything you're doing and I find that it is very, very helpful for today in this harried world where there's a lot of fear and there's a lot of confusion about how to raise children. It gives a lot of direction and a lot of hope. So thanks for being here.
- [62:31]
Summer Joy Gross
Oh, my gosh. You are such a good. I've. I am just, like, I'm completely overwhelmed. I've done so many podcast episodes, but you may be my favorite. You had. You did such a beautiful job, like, going through the book and picking out pieces, and I could just tell your wisdom and your thoughtfulness to your community, and it was just delightful to be guided by you.
- [63:03]
Host of 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
Well, thank you. I so appreciate that.
- [63:06]
Summer Joy Gross
Ah, such a privilege, Jenny.