1KHO 781: Never Get Lost in Conversation Again | Heather Holleman, The Six Conversations

Summary

The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast – Episode Summary

Episode: 1KHO 781: Never Get Lost in Conversation Again | Heather Holleman, The Six Conversations
Host: Ginny Yurich
Guest: Dr. Heather Holleman
Date: April 27, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode shines a spotlight on the essential and often overlooked art of conversation. Ginny Yurich welcomes Dr. Heather Holleman, the bestselling author of The Six Conversations, professor at Penn State's Schreier Honors College, and ministry leader. Together, they dive deep into why meaningful conversation is a powerful act of love, how to cultivate curiosity, and practical ways to help children and adults connect more deeply in an increasingly disconnected, tech-saturated society. Practical frameworks—such as the “Four Ls” of conversational listening and the “Six Pathways” covering the full range of human experience—are explored with real-world examples and warmth.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Heather Holleman’s Background and Book Inspiration

• Dr. Holleman teaches advanced writing, rhetoric, and composition at Penn State’s Schreier Honors College.
• Her work is rooted in both social science and scriptural principles regarding human connection and loving people through intentional conversation.
• The Six Conversations was inspired by loneliness she observed in students and a desire to empower people—of all ages—to forge warmer, deeper relationships.

Quote:
“I realized how much I love teaching… I just love being with students. They are phenomenal.”—Heather, [01:22]

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2. Loving People Through Conversation

The “Four Mindsets” of Conversation

• Believe the Best About People
• Be Curious
• Express Concern
• Share Your Life

Quote:
“It’s one of the most loving things to be curious about other people and to ask really meaningful questions about them.”—Heather, [02:32]

Conversation as an Act of Care

• Meaningful questions can make someone feel truly cared for and seen. Even asking about a friend’s upcoming plans, goals, or struggles strengthens bonds.

Quote:
“When was the last time you felt truly cared for because of the question someone asked you?”—Ginny, [03:05]

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3. The Four L’s of Effective Conversation

1. Let Others Speak
2. Listening (with your "face": attentive, open, present)
3. Limiting Distraction
4. Loving Through Your Face and Presence

Practical Tip:

• Start a timer on your phone: if you talk for more than 2 minutes, practice pausing and volleying the conversation back with a question.
• Physical presence matters—put the phone away, turn your body toward the speaker, and demonstrate interest with facial expressions.

Quote:
“No one told me what I was listening for. When you’re listening to people, you’re actually listening to figure out what their core values are, what they care about, looking for their narrative and patterns.”—Heather, [04:13]

On Face-to-Face Love:
“I literally try to radiate the love of God through my face and just let that person know they have value.”—Heather, [08:26]

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4. Curiosity & The Six Pathways – Never Get Lost In Conversation

The Common Struggle: How to Be Curious

• Most people don’t know how to start—or especially continue—a thoughtful conversation through follow-up questions.

The Six Conversation Categories:

1. Social: Relationships and interactions (e.g., “Tell me about your friends today.”)
2. Emotional: Feelings and affect (e.g., “Is today a happy day or a hard day?” “What did that feel like?”)
3. Physical: Health, body, environment (e.g., “How did you sleep?” “Have you tried any new foods lately?”)
4. Cognitive: Thoughts and mental focus (e.g., “What did you find yourself thinking about most this week?”)
5. Volitional (Decision-making): Choices and agency (e.g., “How did you decide to buy those shoes?” “Was that an easy choice?”)
6. Spiritual: Faith, meaning, purpose (e.g., “What is God teaching you lately?”)

Quote:
“You don’t ever have to ask people, ‘How are you?’ …You can ask a social question, a physical question, a volitional question, a cognitive question, or a spiritual question.”—Heather, [13:39]

Memorable Moment:
Heather’s story of engaging a quiet preteen using non-traditional questions—transforming silence into a lively chat about school lunch and maple waffles. [14:20–15:41]

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5. Practical Examples of Conversation Starters & Follow-ups

• Use story-based prompts: “Tell me the story of…”
• Replace weak verbs with strong ones: Instead of “How are you?” try “What surprised you today?” or “What challenged you?”
• For each category, build off answers using the six pathways—this can turn a simple reply into a chain of rich follow-ups.

Quote:
“One of the research articles I read said the best way to feel close to someone is to remind them of a great memory you shared together.”—Heather, [09:35]

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6. Battling Loneliness With Connection

• Loneliness has a dramatic negative impact on mental and physical health, increasing risk of premature death and affecting well-being as severely as smoking or chronic illness.
• Building warm connections is shown to reduce anxiety and depression.

Quote:
“The health outcomes of lonely people are terrible… When you are lonely, it is the same as smoking 15 cigarettes a day.”—Heather, [32:37]

Notable Moment:
The Pokémon story [30:38–33:03], illustrating how a reluctant, introverted student blossomed through a topic he was passionate about, proving everyone craves warm connection—even if it doesn’t always feel like “work.”

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7. How to End a Conversation Warmly

• Encourage your conversation partner
• Help them with a goal or support them
• Marvel with them at something meaningful

Quote:
“The research shows… to have a warm, loving connection, end your conversation in one of three ways: encourage, help people grow, or marvel.”—Heather, [28:04]

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8. The Power of Note-taking

• Take notes on people’s lives to remember details for follow-up (doctor’s appointments, big events, or anniversaries of loss), demonstrating that you care.

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9. Extending the Conversation to Children and Families

• Conversation skills are vital for kids—not just for social confidence but for professional development and dating later on.
• Both host and guest highlight the overlap between what works for adults and for children, including at the family dinner table.

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10. Additional Resources: Novels & Nature

Heather’s Middle Grade Novels

• This Seat’s Saved (and sequels) center around coming-of-age in nature, friendship, and belonging, echoing themes of real connection over digital posturing.
• The novels include a “flip book” designed to delight young readers and are inspired by Heather’s own upbringing in Pennsylvania’s woods.

Quote:
“Nature doesn’t expect anything from you or judge you about anything. It doesn’t reward you for being pretty or funny or popular. It doesn’t care about your clothing.”—This Seat’s Saved [51:21]

Timestamps:

• The Six Conversations discussion: [03:05–48:33]
• Nature & Novels: [48:33–55:51]
• Childhood nature memories: [57:13–59:16]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Set your phone timer to two minutes when you start talking to a friend and see how long that actually feels.”—Ginny, [06:32]
• “If you’re teaching your kids, this is actually the number one skill you can teach them. It’s called interpersonal curiosity.”—Heather, [13:39]
• “People who have warm connections are less depressed and less anxious. That’s in the Surgeon General’s report.”—Heather, [32:49]
• “You’ll never get lost again. You can literally ask any question and then feel like, oh, I can do any kind of category.”—Heather, [33:21]
• “My favorite thing to talk about is what God is teaching me, especially in the Bible, and how I’m experiencing him. And so few people ask me.”—Heather, [38:31]
• “I think I’m most myself when I’m in the woods. Nature doesn’t expect anything from you or judge you about anything.”—This Seat’s Saved, read by Ginny, [51:21]

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Takeaways

• Conversation is an act of love: Paying attention, asking thoughtful questions, and remembering details makes others feel valued.
• Follow-up questions matter: They are the key to feeling and expressing care.
• Six Pathways prevent “getting lost”: Social, Emotional, Physical, Cognitive, Volitional, Spiritual.
• Practical skills for all ages: Adults and children alike benefit from conversational curiosity and limiting tech distractions.
• Nature as a healing space: Echoes the podcast’s core values—real connection and hands-on living over the virtual world.

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For more, visit heatherholleman.com and explore the Six Conversations and her middle grade series.

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Useful timestamp index for listeners wanting to dive deeper at specific parts:

• [02:32] – Four Mindsets for Loving Conversations
• [04:13] – What Listening Really Means
• [07:16] – The Four L’s Explained
• [13:39] – On Interpersonal Curiosity and The Six Pathways
• [30:38] – The Pokémon Story: Connecting with Reluctant Conversationalists
• [38:31] – On Spiritual Conversations and Faith
• [51:21] – Nature and Belonging in This Seat’s Saved
• [57:13] – Favorite Outdoor Childhood Memory

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Transcript

[A]

This episode is brought to you by State Farm. You know, those friends who support your preference for podcasts over music on road trips? That's the energy State Farm brings to insurance. With over 19,000 local agents, they help you find the coverage that fits your needs so you can spend less time worrying about insurance and more time enjoying the ride. Download the State Farm app or go [e-mail] like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Welcome to the 1000 Hours Outside podcast. My name is Ginny Urge. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside, and I have read over 700 books for this podcast, and I just recently read one that I am keeping in my purse. Out of 700 books, there's never been a book that I'm like, I am keeping this book in my purse, and I'm going to tell you what it is in just a minute. But the author of that book and many other books, and also she teaches writing for advanced writing at some honors college that I can't even pronounce at Penn State. Heather Holloman, welcome.

[B]

Oh, I'm so excited to be on this podcast. Thank you for having me.

[A]

Okay, tell us about your backstory here. You teach this advanced writing course at Shrier.

[B]

Yes. At Penn State, it's the Schreier Honors College.

[A]

That wasn't as hard as I thought.

[B]

Yeah. So it's. I am in charge of the advanced writing program for them. I help them with their thesis writing and all of their professional development.

[A]

Okay, what's the backstory there? So you teach the art of persuasion. You teach effective argumentation.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So it's. This is rhetoric and communication.

[B]

Yes, Rhetoric and composition. Yep. I got my PhD in English, English literature. I loved British poets, nature poets, But I quickly realized how much I love teaching. So now I'm in the composition classroom. And I love teaching writing, and I love writing, but mostly I just love being with the students. They are phenomenal, and it is a great career to just be with college students.

[A]

Oh, I love it. Okay. So the book that I'm keeping in my purse and I think is one of the most valuable books I've ever come across is called. It's. And it's small enough to keep in there. It's called the Six Conversations. Pathways to Connecting in an Age of Isolation and Incivility. And what's so interesting is that two days ago, I talked to Gary Chapman, who is the Love languages guy.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And he has a new book out, and he was talking in his book about conversation and listening, and he said, the most important question is the follow up question.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Gary Chapman wrote the forward to this book, the Six Conversations. And so if you have no idea what the follow up question is or the starting question, you're going to find it in this book. So can you talk about that we love each other. Well, yes, through conversation.

[B]

Yes. It's one of the most loving things to be curious about other people and to ask really meaningful questions about them. And I talk in the book about just how to believe the best about people, be curious, express concern, and then share your life. It's what we call the four mindsets of a loving conversation. And it's all rooted in the social science research of how to have a warm connection. But of course, if you're listening and you've read the Bible, all of these things come straight out of scripture, Most notably Philippians 2, Romans 12. It's just a beautiful way of living your life to love people well, through conversation.

[A]

And you never really heard people talk about that, that you can love people through conversation. But you had this question here. When was the last time you felt truly cared for because of the question someone asked you about your life? When was the last time you felt that another person was looking out for your interests or wanting you to succeed and figuring out ways to personally encourage you? And you say your students often look sad. Yeah, I have one friend who every single week she texts me and says, who's your podcast tomorrow? You know, which one are you looking forward to the most? Which one went the best? Obviously Heather, you know.

[B]

Oh, gosh, yes.

[A]

But, you know, of all the people in my life, she's the only one that asks consistently. And it does make you feel cared for. So can you talk about the 4L's? So you say everyone wants to grow in the art of conversation and so you talk about that. There's some basics here. Before you get into these six conversations, there's some basics here, the four L's about learning the. I already said foundation.

[B]

Are you talking about listening or the four mindsets?

[A]

One of the ones I'm talking about listening. I know, I know you brought up the mindsets about, like, being curious and. Yeah, that type of thing.

[B]

Well, you know, after I wrote the book, I just want to say, I mean, the, the four Ls are like, you know, letting others speak, you know, listening with your face, kind of all of these things. But the number one thing I've actually learned about listening. You're going to let others speak. But, you know, I mean, Ginny, this is life changing. Nobody told me what I was listening for. So when you're listening to people, you're actually listening to figure out what their core values are, what they care about, what look for the listened at, like narratives and patterns. Like you're really listening to what they care about. And then you say to them, as we're talking, I can tell you really value. And then you tell them what you noticed about them. They will feel so loved, so seen, so connected to you. You can do it with a small child all the way up, you know, all the way up the ages. Everyone wants to feel, like, really understood, really seen.

[A]

Oh, you know, in a day and age where people are really lonely, this is such an important topic. So when you talk about these four Ls, and I thought, gosh, this is such a great resource, Heather, for like helping your children, you know, as they're learning how to build friendships. Because you talk about your own self. You were like a. I was.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh, Ginny. I had high articulation needs. I would not stop talking. The number one thing I heard in my house says, heather, please stop talking now. Of course, I'm a public speaker and a professor now. I talk so much and I needed so much conversation. My husband teases me that I write novels in order to invent more people to spend time with. It's so bad. It is so bad. But I think one, one of the tips I can give you in the, in the listening part of that book is when you're letting others speak. For those of you who love to talk a lot, I even tell my students, set a timer. You set a little stopwatch on your phone. If you're talking for more than two minutes, just see if you can practice bouncing conversation back and forth. And you're always asking meaningful questions and not just jumping in to kind of tell your own story. That's got. That's a really great tip. As you let others speak, you want to make sure you're not talking too much.

[A]

I love that tip. I loved it because how would you know? How would you know if you're talking too much? And you wrote, I haven't read it. It's red on my paper, and red means very important.

[B]

Okay, what did you write? What. What is on this paper?

[A]

Set your phone timer to two minutes when you start talking to a friend and see how long that actually feels. What a great thing to do around the dinner table. What a great thing to teach your child. So you say one of your goals, a main goal, should be Let other people speak. And this book is filled with follow up questions. You could say, have you ever felt that way? I'm not going to go into. We'll go into that in a minute because you have these like sort of six pathways that it could go. But you say, you know, after you've shared for two minutes or so, pause and then volley it back. Can you ask a question? Can you talk also? So these basics, the four Ls, is there something else you want to say there?

[B]

No. Did you have other to do you want to tell them what the four L's are? Is there any.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Let others speak.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What did you write down? The other three?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, go ahead.

[A]

Listening.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Limiting distraction.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And loving through your face.

[B]

Yes. Okay, listen. When you are looking at people, you know little things. Raise your eyebrows, lift your chin up, it show interest and also just don't have your phone out. That is one of the best ways, you know, limit those distraction and love through your face. But I'm telling you, listening is an overlooked skill. But it's actually not the thing my students most struggle with and what most families struggle with. Do you want to know the number one thing most everyone is struggling with? How to be curious. They not only don't know how to ask the first question, they don't know how to carry a conversation by asking the next question. And that's really what the book helps. It helps you never get lost starting or continuing a loving conversation again.

[A]

It's so good. Okay, so when you talk about your face, you're like, practice it. Practice lifting your chin. And you talk about eyebrow expressions. How I use my face matters deeply. Can you talk about how that connects with positive regard?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you say try to imagine a person who loves you unconditionally.

[B]

Yes. I mean we. If you want to try to picture someone looking at you lovingly, loving you through their eyes, the way they're smiling at you. I try to do that when I look at people. I literally try to radiate the love of God through my face and just let that person know they have value, they have dignity, they have a one of a kind point of view on the universe. They're like an infinite marvel. And when you look at a person that way, they're going to feel that and they're going to feel a warm connection with you.

[A]

So you had this idea. The idea was what if the person next to you will eventually be famous? That was kind of the gist.

[B]

Oh, that was the joke. Yeah. With my students. Yeah.

[A]

But you're like. It's kind of theologically correct, right, that. That they are. They're one of a kind. They're a marvel. There's no one that's ever existed like them. And so it's. It's a good thing to remember. You like talking about almost like the theology of conversation. So to have positive. Regardless you say, picture how someone's face lights up when they talk to you. Picture that loving presence. And you're trying to model that. You can even begin your conversation by saying, I'm so happy. Yeah, so happy to be talking with you, Heather. I love your books and I'm really enjoying this, you know, connecting with you.

[B]

Yes. That's what the research calls expressing liking. It's how you show people that you're believing the best about them. You actually have to say nice things to them. Like, I really like being with you. Tell them how. How you're learning from them. Tell them what you admire about them or a memory that you share. One of the research articles I read said the closest way to feel. The best way to feel close to someone is remind them of a great memory you shared together.

[A]

Oh, what a special thing to do as a family. Yes, I love that. Okay, so you're expressing liking, but one of the other things that you suggested was to assume that people like you.

[B]

That's right. A lot of people are rejection sensitive. And so some people actually have to get over that and express a positive regard towards themselves. My husband and I often speak on the six conversations together. We do a workshop together because he's an introvert who really had to grow in the ability to share his life because he didn't really have the confidence or believe that, you know, do people want to hear from him? Do people even like him? And when he realized that he too, has a one of a, you know, kind point of view and he has things to share and that God gave him stories to tell and experiences to share that could help someone else. It really helped him build confidence.

[A]

How long have you been doing that together?

[B]

Well, we started a ministry called Seated and Sent where we're helping churches understand that their kind of identity in Christ and then how to move into outreach and really sharing and creating cultures of evangelism. And we found that the biggest barrier was people don't actually know how to have loving connections that naturally lead to gospel conversations. And so originally I wrote the book as an intervention for loneliness and to help my students have warm connections and also within families. But really what it's become is the answer to how to transition into the conversations that we all want to talk about things that are really deep to our hearts, like our relationship with God. So we've been doing that. Sorry, to answer your question, about four years we've been doing that ministry and giving this workshop together for, you know, probably teenagers all the way up. I've never met one person who doesn't want to grow in the art of having better conversations.

[A]

Isn't that true? I didn't even know about this. You have so many things going on. I read one of your middle grade novels that was fan. It's fantastic. It's like a coming of age novel. You know, when there's social media.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

What is that like? And so steeped in nature really coincides really well with this podcast. It's called this Seat Saved. So then I'm like, oh, I didn't even know you have more middle grade novels. And then you have, you speak with your husband and you've got this ministry and you're working at Penn State. I mean, a lot going on. I love it. Okay, so you've got the four, you got the four L's down. Let's just talk just for a little moment though, about limiting distraction.

[B]

Well, there's nothing more loving than giving someone your full attention. And this is hard for me because, like, I'm a multitasker. Like, imagine me like with my family or going into the classroom. Like you just said, I have a lot going on. So when I want to show people that I'm giving them my full, full attention, I make a big deal of putting my phone away, closing my planner, turning my whole body towards them, maybe even leaning in with my hand on my chin like I am thinking about what you're saying. I really make a big deal of getting rid of those distractions so I can focus on what you're saying. And again, when I'm listening to you, I'm listening for what you care about. Like, what are the core values that you're representing? What are some things that I see as patterns in the way you're talking to me so I can really kind of get to know you. And even on a more deeper level, think about what God's doing in your life. From the Christian perspective at least. I love doing that.

[A]

Yeah, I love that you wrote. Okay, so you say. I personally love it when I'm talking to a person and they make a deliberate effort to put away their phone. Yes, it feels loving.

[B]

And it does, it does.

[A]

Like they are consciously choosing to focus their attention on me and What I thought Heather was, wow, it doesn't take that much to stand out in this day and age.

[B]

It doesn't. And I'll tell you, I ask my students, and even young people, you know, in my neighborhood, I'll say, hey, did anyone ask you a good question today? And they'll say, no, no one asked me anything today. Or my students will say, I went on a date and the guy did not ask me one question about my life. So if you're someone, I tell my students that it's the number one professional development skill for young people. So if you're teaching your kids, this is actually the number one skill you can teach them. It's called interpersonal curiosity. Learn how to ask really good questions. And the book gives six pathways based on the six dimensions of what it means to be human. And that's really the game changer of the book. You don't ever have to ask people, how are you? That's an emotional question. You can ask a social question. Hey, tell me about your friends. You can ask a physical question, how did you sleep last night? Did you try any new foods? You can ask a volitional question, which is about decision making, like, how did you decide to buy those shoes? Or how did you decide, you know, to start a podcast? That's would be what I would ask you if we were out. Or a cognitive question. I love this one, Jenny. Hey, what did you find yourself thinking about most today? Or a spiritual question about God? So, for example, just about 10 minutes ago, my neighbor asked if I would pick up his daughter from school because he was running late. Now, this is a preteen who his. The parents are like, she does not love to talk. We cannot get anything out of her. So she gets in the car, and I was like, oh, I have to ask a really good question. So I said, tell me what happened with your friends today. I didn't ask, how are you? I didn't say, how was your day? I did a social question. Hey, tell me what happened with your friends today? She answered it, chat, chat, chat, chat, chat. Then I said, I want to know what you ate for lunch today. It was chicken fingers and maple waffles. I turned around, I was like, stop. Maple waffles. I got to know the whole story of the maple waffles on and on and on, just by asking a good question. And then she can ask me, what did you pack for lunch when you were my age? Which is funny because I went to school in the 80s. Do you remember the pizza? The cardboard pizza?

[A]

I never bought lunch.

[B]

Yeah, well, I'm also a lot older than you are.

[A]

I'm probably at school in the 80s. No, I went to school. 80s.

[B]

Yeah. So just asking a good question. And then that follow up question is just also rooted in those six categories. So if I said, tell me about your friends and my conversation partner said, oh, well, one girl didn't come to school because she had the flu. Well, what's my next question, Ginny? I have six categories. I could say a social question also. Wait, how did you find out about that? Which other friend told you about that? I could ask a cognitive question. Hey, what did that make you think about? Did you get worried when you heard that she had the flu? Cognitive, Volitional. I'll say, hey, what are we going to do about this? Do you think we need to write her a card? But volitional, you are never going to get lost having conversation again.

[A]

Wow. That's what I said. I'm putting it in my.

[B]

Yeah, and we did train our children like our girl. We did conversation training at the dinner table and they love it. And it's great for dating now they're older, they're grown, but it's really great for professional connections and your dating life. Just if you're listening, you're like, I need this book right now.

[A]

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[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Try not to be, like, super obvious. Yes, I take notes. So can you talk about. There was a story that you brought up in the book. The six conversations about someone who had found their grandmother's journal, like, after she had passed away. And she had written all this beautiful stuff in there about getting to know her grandkids better.

[B]

Yes. She took notes on everything that those kids were into. So when she had her phone calls with them, she could say, oh, tell me, how is violin practice going? Or, how is this going? How is this going? And, you know, as I got older, I thought, you know, older in my mind, I'm in my 50s now. I was like, I'm going to forget what people say. So I do have a planner. I also have a notes app, if that I use on my phone. But if someone shares something with me, especially one of my students, I'll write it down so I can ask about it the next day. I did it today because on Friday again. So it's been a week because we had a snow day and different things. But last week, a student shared that she was gonna have a very difficult conversation with someone, and she wanted my advice. Well, a week later, I said to her, hey, whatever happened with that conversation? She was so overwhelmed that I even remembered that we had talked about it, But I wrote it down. I was like, okay, you know. You know, Ella is having a difficult conversation. I need to follow up with that. But especially if people have, like, doctor's appointments or something they're nervous about, I'll write that down and text about it or call. And it just helps build your relationships and your friendships with people to remember the things they share with you.

[A]

Yeah. One of the ones I've never done, but I always think about it, and it was in the book, and I was like, gosh, I really need to be better about it is when someone has a loved one that passes away. You know, anniversary comes a year, and that's all they're thinking about that day, you know? You know, so if you remember and are able to reach out and check in with them. So there's a lot of. Just even from that, you know, it's so interesting, like, you brought it up in the book. So the book is called the Six Conversations. And you're kind of like. And right on the front, I'm like, I see this. This is the pathway I want to connect. So you're like, what are the conversations? Like, I want to know. But you don't bring them up till the very end.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You kind of like.

[B]

Because you need the mindset first. You need to learn. Yeah. You gotta have that curiosity. Believing the best, and it is called Pathways to connecting in an age of isolation and incivility. Because you don't ever have to worry about getting into intense debates or political conversations or kind of hostility. Because when you believe the best about people, you just want to know the story of why they believe the way they do or why they think the way they do. And just remember, your goal is not to win arguments. It's to have a warm connection with people.

[A]

Yeah. At first I was kind of like, when is she gonna get to these questions?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

You address that in the book. But even in this conversation, I mean, you can see why. It's like you have to set the groundwork. And so when you're talking about becoming better conversationalists and you talked in this book about your own story, you're like, I was self absorbed. I was self involved. I was talking all the time. But what that led to was feeling lonely, dysfunctional, isolated and awkward. And nobody wants to feel like that. So we need to know how to talk with each other. And you say it's really bad. Only half. Half of Americans have daily, meaningful, in person social interactions, and the other half do not. So I would like to talk about just briefly, these six categories. And I was wondering, because I, you know, I read it recently and I was like, am I going to remember these? But I think I will, like, if I practice. Obviously you do.

[B]

Well, if. If six is hard to remember, I just choose two or three that are kind of always successful for me. So the three categories I like the best are. The first is the physical one, because people actually like to talk about their bodies and things related to physical spaces or things they're eating. So if I were to be getting to know you, Jenny, I would say a physical question. I would say, well, have you tried any new foods lately? Or have you guys traveled to any cool places lately? Or I might even ask, like, are you injured? Like, I have a lot of student athletes. I'm like, hey, how's your body feeling? Do you have any aches and pains? Believe it or not, people like to talk about their Bodies. And nobody ever asks about it. Like, when people are like, hey, are you in any kind of pain today? I'm like, sit down. How much time do you have? So I love that one. I also, since I'm a professor, I love the question, and it is a love language for me. Hey, what did you find yourself thinking most about this week? I love that question. Because if you're a parent and you. You want to know what's going on with your kids, just say, hey, what'd you. What did you guys find yourself thinking most about today? And see what they say. Because sometimes when we're ruminating about things or thoughts in our head we can't get rid of, that's really where, you know, anxiety is. That's really where their worries are. So I love saying, okay, what did you think about most today? And I love it when people ask me that question, because then it's such a fun conversation. The other thing you can do is volitional. I have more friends simply by complimenting their shoes. And I'll say, oh, I love your Nikes. And then I do a volitional question. How did you decide, by the way? Volition is the fancy word for, like, human volition, like decision making agency. It's just the fancy word for choice. I'll say, I love your Nikes. How did you decide to get those rather than the Hokas or the on clouds? I have made more friends in airports by asking that question. So just choose a couple. There's also spark questions. These are questions that always work, like, hey, have you tried anything new lately? Or, what was the highlight of your weekend? Or, hey, I'd love to know what your good news is and what you're celebrating. Like, so if we were getting to know each other and having coffee, I'd be like, jenny, tell me some good things going on. Like, what are you celebrating lately? And that would create a warm connection. We'd start talking about celebrations so you don't have to remember all six categories. You can choose a couple that you feel really good in. But always remember, after that first question, think about the six permutations. So if I said, ginny, what are you celebrating? And you shared something, I could do a social question. I could say, ginny, who do you share your celebrations with? I could do a physical question. Hey, when you're really happy, like, what happens to your body? Are you someone that, like, jumps up and down?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

You could just go on and on.

[A]

Yeah, it goes on and on. Did you ever count up how many questions are actually in the book?

[B]

Well, I give my 100 favorite questions that I ask students. I always ask an attendance question to get to know them. And I put my 100 favorite questions, and I love them. I mean, every day I'm learning new questions. The other day, someone asked a really great question that, where you can learn a lot about people. She said, I want to know what kind of driver you are. Oh, I love that. The second question I love. If you're stuck in conversation, especially if you're on a date or, you know, you're trying to get to know a family member, this is what you ask. What do you think you know a ridiculous amount about that's random that you could just talk about forever. You're going to learn more about what people are really loving to do. So I love that question. The other question I love is this. And I love asking my students this. Are you ready? When I'm trying to get to know someone, and I would do this with you, Ginny, I'd say, okay, I want to get to know you. What question are you secretly hoping I'll ask you about your life? And then you tell me. That way you have to do the work. So I love that. On dates, like when I'm out with my husband, we've been married 26 years, if we can't figure out, like, what to talk about, I'll say, okay, what question are you. Are you hoping I'll ask you tonight? And that makes the date go really well.

[A]

Wow. I. In my notes, I've got 11 pages of notes from these two books. I made the questions orange, so that

[B]

way they're so cute.

[A]

So they're orange. So that way, I'm like, if I am. If I don't have the book with me, I'm like, I will just be able to pull up my phone and I will have like hundreds and hundreds of questions.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

On my Google Docs notes.

[B]

And just so you know, you know how we're talking about how it can go on and on. That's why I did the research on how to end a conversation, even if it's two minutes. You can have a warm connection because the research shows that to have a warm, loving connection, end your conversation, but in one of three ways. Encourage your conversation partner. Help them with whatever goals or whatever support they need, or marvel with them. If you notice something that you want to be really grateful for or divine activity, marvel with them. Is that not so cool? Encourage. Help people grow or marvel.

[A]

It's so cool. Okay, let's briefly talk about the six categories. Even though I know you, maybe you feel like you've already brought them up.

[B]

No, no, no. Let's do it.

[A]

I'm like, I really want to make sure I get this. So category one that's in the book is social. The full range of our social interactions. People like to talk about the people in their lives. You brought up the teens. Like, this is a great one for teens.

[B]

They love it.

[A]

So you have, like, just so many examples of questions here. So I'm going to.

[B]

Within each category.

[A]

Within each category. So which of your roommate gets the least amount of sleep? So you're talking about college kids now. What's a question you like people to ask you right now? We kind of brought that one up because I shouldn't say that. Do you have any upcoming plans with friends? But in this one, your best tip is to use the word story.

[B]

Yes. I don't know why, but the brain loves narrative. So if I say to my little third grader who lives next door, tell me the story about how you met that friend, or tell me the story about what you're gonna do for your birthday party with your friends. They just love that. And. And it works really well, by the way. You know, nobody likes to answer the question, how are you? Because it's a weak verb that. I know this is very nerdy, but the brain can't picture it. It doesn't activate mirror neurons. So you need to put a strong verb in there, like, hey, what surprised you about your day? Or what, you know, what challenged you? But you don't have to ever ask, how are you again? Because when you see people, you can say, oh, I haven't seen you for a while. Tell me who you've been spending time with. That's a social question that starts the conversation. So, yeah, I go through, like, different. All the six categories and different questions you can ask in each category.

[A]

Yeah. And a best tip or two. So that's the. That's a social.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Here's an example. Like, I would say to my daughter, she does, like, a homeschool thing on Thursday. She's nine. Like, I always ask, who did you eat lunch with?

[B]

Yes, that's good, but it's.

[A]

It's really not that good. I could enhance it by saying, why did you pick.

[B]

That's volitional. How did you decide? Yeah, keep it in that social category. Oh, I love that.

[A]

Yes, it's great. There's so many options here. Can you share the Pokemon story?

[B]

You know, I'm talking About. I love this. Okay, so if you have someone in your life that does not like to have conversation. So this happened. A student came to my office after I did the six conversations workshop for my students because it's a professional development skill. So I did it. He comes to my office. He's like, look, I'm an introvert. I'm a. I'm an astrophysicist, and I do not like to connect. I don't need warm connections, and I just don't want to have a conversation. So this is what I said, Ginny. I looked at him and I said, how long have you been this way? And he said, well, when I was in first grade, I started playing video games, and I found that. I found all of my connections that way. And I said, well, what video game? He said, well, I really love Pokemon. And I said, wait, the. The card game or the video game? Like, I just got deep into what. What are you talking about? I said, wait, so tell me more about Pokemon. You know, I went all into the details about Pokemon, how he started, how you meet people, what the whole thing is. 45 minutes later, I said to him, you realize that we have just had a great conversation. We have had a great connection. And he said, Dr. H, it doesn't count because you asked about Pokemon, meaning it didn't feel like work to him. I said, look, you just need to have people where you're having conversations about things you like to talk about and just ask questions and notice. Because I talk in the book about noticing what category people like to talk in. He liked the physical category. I want to know about the cards. I want to know about the players. I want to know about. I know nothing about Pokemon. I don't play video games. I don't know anything about it. So I just stayed really curious. And we became. He's a great student, and we were in touch for a long time. And I just said, look, this. You're creating a warm connection here. The other thing I had to tell that student is, I know that you think you don't need this, but the research shows that the health outcomes of lonely people are terrible. They're, like, catastrophic. When you are lonely, it is the same as smoking 15 cigarettes a day. It is. You're increasing your chance of premature death by 32%. You're raising your cortisol levels so high and inflammation when you're lonely. So I told him, this is really about you building interpersonal connections to protect your health and your mental health. People who have warm connections are less Depressed and less anxious. And that's in the surgeon general's report. And you can read all the research.

[A]

Yeah. So important. Okay, so that's category one, social, category two, emotional. Here's an example. Is today a happy day or a hard day?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So for each of the categories, you have got 20 or 30 examples of it, and you say, here's the best tip. It's so easy. What did that feel like to you?

[B]

Yeah, hey, what did that feel like? What did it feel like? And then see what they say. See what they say. You'll never get lost again. You can literally ask any question and then feel like, oh, I can do any kind of category. Like, so if you say, what, what are you celebrating? What's your good news? And Ginny, you want to say, oh, my daughter did a great job in her homeschool co op today. I'll say, hey, what did that feel like for you? Yeah, would that. It'd be so great. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, it's the best. The best type of question is a follow up question. Okay. Then physical. We've already talked about that one. You were like talking in the book. You're like, I had three surgeries in the span of one month and I want to tell you about.

[B]

Yeah, I needed all the details. Yes.

[A]

I remember thinking as a kid when I was observing kind of standing around, like, waiting for my parents to finish up conversation. I was like, I'll know I'm old. When. Yeah, I talked about all my physical ailments. I just remember thinking as a kid,

[B]

like, that's what, that's what old people like to do. But don't forget the physical category of complimenting hair and skin. Skin, especially if you have teens in your life. I said, I was having a hard time connecting with some girls down the street. And I was like, look, your skin is absolutely glowing. How did you get it that way? And I learned all about their beauty products, all the stuff they buy. Same with hair. I love your hair. How did you get it that way? You're complimenting in the direction of a physical, you know, category. So. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. And then cognitive. So this is not about being intellectual.

[B]

No, it's just. What have you been thinking about? I'll never forget. I was trying. I do the church info desk. And I was like, I want to have a warm connection with these people, but these are very short conversations. And there was a man and his wife that I hardly knew. And I just introduced myself and I said, I'm so glad you guys are here. I said, I Hope you guys had a good week. Was it a good week? What did you find yourself thinking about the most? They love that question, Jenny. They were like, what? I said, yeah, what did you think about the most? And they ended up sharing that they really had a hard week because of a situation with their daughter. And it was just a very short conversation. We were able to encourage them, but on Monday we got an email and this is what it said. We know you're not therapists, but that was the most loving question anyone has asked us all year. Would you guys wanna have lunch with us? They felt such a warm connection because I was like, hey, what's been on your mind? I did meet with a trauma therapist who also said, that is a very loving question. Cause a lot of people get stuck in their mind. They have thoughts they can't get rid of. So if you ask them, they, hey, what's been on your mind? Like, what thoughts been going through your mind you can't get rid of? You'll be amazed at the conversations you have with people. You'll feel really close to them, actually. They'll share with you. Yeah, I can't stop thinking about this. Or especially if they're in a hard situation, like if they're grieving or if they've been in any kind of natural disaster. She said to ask, hey, what thoughts going through your mind you can't get rid of? Because you'll find out what they're most struggling with.

[A]

Wow, Heather. It just goes to show, it just can be so small.

[B]

So small.

[A]

It's just a couple words with a question mark, intonation at the end. Just like putting away the phone. It's just so small and it can make such a huge difference. What a thing. The most loving question that they have been asked in a year. I mean, that's a huge deal from someone they don't know at all.

[B]

No, no. Just ask good questions and think about questions that you love, that people have asked you and how loving it felt just for someone to ask you a really good question.

[A]

And I think that's part of the hardship here, is that like you talk about, especially for the younger people, that they haven't been asked good questions and so they don't know.

[B]

They.

[A]

They have no idea because they haven't been asked. Right, okay, so then this is the fourth category. Volitional. That's a word actually I hadn't heard before.

[B]

It's an SAT word. Volition. Like, yeah, think of. I don't know why I should. Maybe I should have just called It. Decision making, but volitional. It just means, like, you've made a decision about something.

[A]

Yeah. Okay, so here's a great question. Where in your life do you feel you have no choices? Ooh.

[B]

Yeah, that's from the book.

[A]

I didn't make it up.

[B]

Well, the reason why that's good is a lot of where people feel stuck in life is they don't feel like they have a choice. So if you're. These are. This is going deep, Jenny. These are, like, good. These are, like, good, therapeutic conversations. Like, I. I talk about my daughter who had nosebleeds at school, and she was panicking. She didn't want to have a nosebleed because she thought it was terrible. And I was like, well, what choices do you have? Like, if it happens, do you feel like you have no choice? Because choice empowers people. You feel like you've got a little bit of power and control. So. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I love. And I love the best tip in this one was, was that an easy choice? Oh, so going back to who did you eat lunch with? Why did you pick them? Was it easy to pick that person?

[B]

Yeah. Was that an easy choice? Oh, that's good. I haven't used that one in a while, and I had. I have students applying to med school, trying to decide between different things, and I'm going to use that tomorrow. Hey, was that an easy choice to apply there or to do that thing? That's good.

[A]

Yeah. And then the final one we're already to number six is spiritual. So you say you've been asking people questions about God since the fifth grade. Will you tell us about that?

[B]

Yes. First of all, I. I love. My favorite thing, besides the cognitive category, is to talk about Jesus and what God is teaching me, especially in the Bible, and how I'm experiencing him. And so few people ask me, and it's such a joyful thing. So even in fifth grade, I remember thinking, oh, I want to talk to my friends about God. So I would ask questions like, what do you think about God? Have you thought about God? Do you think there's a cre. Whatever it is. But now that I'm older, I realize how much people want to talk about their spiritual lives. So even this very morning, I have a student who's Jewish. So I just asked him. I said, you know, is your Jewish faith important to you? Like, how is it a cultural thing? Or do you find yourself experiencing God? Like, how do you experience God? He wanted to talk and talk and talk about it, and then he threw it Back to me, he was like, what about you, Dr. H? Tell me about your experience with God and how natural is that? It's not a sales pitch. There's no weird pivot in the conversation. I don't stop and say, now I'm going to talk about Jesus. It's just part of the conversation. So if, especially around Easter time, you can say, you know, I'm a Christian and we celebrate Easter. Are there any holidays that are really special to you? What do you guys do? Or what are your rituals? I don't know. Don't. Do you love it when people ask you about God? Or does it feel weird if someone's like, ginny, tell me some cool things you're learning about God lately. Does that feel weird to you?

[A]

Well, I feel like I'm in a similar situation.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, no one really asks.

[B]

I want to know.

[A]

I had a friend in college, and we got together once a week and had a set list of questions that we went through, which that were kind of like open ended, that included spiritual life and. And that was a really cool bonding thing. But, like, I can't think of anyone else really asking much.

[B]

My favorite thing since. Well, only because God's gonna reveal things to you that I don't know. So when I'm talking to people, I'm literally on a treasure hunt. Like, I know we're on a podcast right now, but my. But the thing I want to do most right now is just say, jenny, what do you know about God that you can teach me? I want to know how you're experiencing Him. It's my favorite thing to talk about.

[A]

And I.

[B]

What's the latest?

[A]

That we're in a really hard spot because this keeps getting brought up, but we got kicked out of church a year and a half ago for sending in letters about the youth pastor of concern, and they kicked us out of the church for sending in the letters. That's all we did, was send letters in the mail, in. In an envelope in the mail. And they revoked our membership. They said, we are gossips and distressing. The stretching the fabric of their community was so mean, but, you know, like, shrouded in Christianese. You know, we care for you, but it was so mean. And they said, we have, you know, done investigation. And anyway, then, like, seven months later, the guy's caught as a pedophile.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And no one came back to make sure that our kids were okay. No one came back to say, we're so sorry. Instead, they, like, slandered our name through the community when I was a kid. Nobody should get kicked out of church for raising concerns about someone who works with children. That should never happen. And just the guy. It's been a year and a half, but the guy's, like, still going through the court system. But I don't even care about that. I care about, like, the people who are in charge who, like, yes, this was your staff member that you hired that you didn't have, you know, know what was going on on his computer. You didn't know his Internet search history. You kicked us out of your search church simply for raising concerns. And so anyways, over the past 18 months, I've read, like, about 10 books or so about how sometimes pastures are wolves that eat their sheep.

[B]

Oh, Jenny, I have so many questions. No, wait. Can I. You know, so I totally want to interrupt. See, we're modeling conversation. You know what went through my mind? Two things. Number one, how disillusioning that must have felt because you trusted your leadership. But number two, my. I'm really curious right now. How did you deal with the bitterness and unforgiveness? Has God taught you how to let go of that, or are you still in it? You know what I mean?

[A]

I'm not sure. I mean, I think, like, we have seen God's redemption in terms of finding other community, but we lost our entire community, except for one family and people that I had really poured my time and my life and my resources into. And they sided with the church. And even after it came out, like, they didn't come back and say, oh, whoops, you know, it was nothing.

[B]

And do you have a discerning gift? Did you kind of know before you sent that letter? Like, did the Lord let.

[A]

I didn't know he was a pedophile, but we knew that something was wrong. And I think he had said a bunch of things, and he was acting unbiblically, and he was weird with our son. He was a pedophile that liked boys. He was in his 40s, and he was weird with our son, and he was just weird and did things that were not biblical. You know, said things that were not biblical. This wasn't appropriate. And so we all sent letters, all seven of us, and we were like, these are the things. This is how it's impacted me. My kids sent letters. They're like, I've lost all my friends. You know, these are the things that have happened. Please help. And I just think the Bible is really clear that if you're in leadership in a church, you're supposed to be above Reproach.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So this is actually what I've been thinking about the most lately is, you know, this is coming out a lot, right. Where they're like, this person, that person. And what I feel is the truth is that somebody always already knew. Somebody knew something was wrong. They might. Like. I didn't have access to this guy's Internet history, and he's searching the most disgusting, you know, inappropriate acts with small children. That's in his search history on his computer. I didn't have access to that, but I knew something was wrong. And in all of these instances where you're seeing these, I think almost exclusively, it appears to be fallen men who have done inappropriate things and, like, in some cases, ruined people's lives and just cause, like, major. Just devastation for people. Somebody knew.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And nobody did anything.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So I read this quote by Charles Spurgeon that said leniency to the dishonest is cruelty to those whom they injure. Ooh.

[B]

You care a lot about truth. And also, I noticed you said you read 10 books about this. You want to learn and figure this out. You value that, and that is so awesome. You're like, I'm going to read every book I can. Wow. You don't want secrecy. You want transparency. Yeah.

[A]

You.

[B]

You felt like you guys were lied to. That is not good.

[A]

That's bad.

[B]

That is not good.

[A]

So anyway, yeah, that's been our. That's where we're at. Not in it. Not that it has changed our faith in any way, shape, or form.

[B]

Yeah, that was my next question.

[A]

But really, just, like, what should the church be like? What is the church like? Is it a place where you should go and listen to someone speak for an hour while you sit passively and. And then you leave? And then those people are kind of worshiped and they're. They're surrounded by yes men, and there's a lot of money flowing through all of it. And, you know, so there are questions that we're still grappling with, and our kids. Our kids are really grappling with trust.

[B]

Yeah. How do I trust people?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you have, like, other people that support you in this that you guys talk to about it, or do you feel alone?

[A]

Yeah, we've. And we've made some new. We've made some new community. But, I mean, it was definitely a turning point in our life, and I.

[B]

That's a turning point.

[A]

Think it's that uncommon?

[B]

It's not uncommon, but, yeah, I love that you're already getting, like, nuggets of truth, though. Like the sheep that eat the shepherd. That's struck me.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, it's the shepherd that eats the sheep. Yes, the shepherd is really a wolf and they're. So anyway, yeah, that's a total teenager.

[B]

No, what I love about this whole conversation, by the way, because a lot of your guests may be like, well, I don't want to ask that question because what if someone shares something with me that's like so heavy and I don't have the time for it. If you notice, this was a very short conversation for us. Like, I got to hear something really important to you. I got to, I, I got to ask a couple of good follow up questions, allow you to unburden, and then I can notice some things and compliment you. Like, I love that you're a learner. I love that you're working through it. I love that your kids, part of their story that God's going to redeem is what does it mean to trust people and how to follow God and know that his people are still fallen? You know, like, his people are messed up, but God isn't. We can trust him. No, that's deep. That's deep. Thank you for sharing that. Oh, my gosh.

[A]

It was like a masterclass of a four minute.

[B]

We did a masterclass. And, you know, I have experienced disillusionment like that. And I'll tell you, I'm really impressed that you did not give up on God. You didn't turn away from him. You just were like, these are his people. Yeah, it's weird. We gotta keep our wits about us.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, God is good. And God has redeemed it in so many ways. And he promises to do that so that the last. That's the sixth of the conversation.

[B]

Yeah, Spiritual.

[A]

Spiritual. And you say you can also revise old standbys. And I loved this part, Heather.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I really want to get, I really want to get to the kids book though, too, because I love that as well. But there are, you know, you're like, there's different ways. If you're stuck in, like, how's the weather sport? You're like, you can just say it differently. Like, who do you watch that game with?

[B]

Or are you. Yeah. Or are you a snow person? Are you a summer person? Yeah. Yeah. You'll never. I mean, I always. We're at Penn State. I'm always asking people about the game, but I don't just say, how was the game? I'll say, okay, tell me what you were thinking about most during that game. You know, I'll go to cognitive or I'll do a volition with. Yeah, how'd you decide to get season tickets? Yeah, you're never, you guys, you're never going to get lost again. You're going to love these little tips. And even young, young people can learn. Kindergarteners can learn this. Wow.

[A]

Wow. This is an incredible resource. It's called the six Conversations. You say the communication climate, climate has turned. People are not getting asked questions, but people who ask more questions, particularly follow up questions are better liked by their conversation partners.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it ends. Each section has 20 to 30 questions plus there's questions before you even get to that section. Section of the six pillars. And then at the very end there's a list of 100 favorite questions that you use to get to know your students. It is an incredibly valuable resource. It's called the six Conversations. I want to make sure that we touch a little bit on these middle grade novels that you have. I read one of them. It's called this Seats saved. And first of all, there's a, there's a little fox.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

Oh, the Little Fox book.

[B]

Yeah, they all have them. All four of them have. Each book is a different season and a different character that the little flip book appears on. Yeah, the little fox will be there.

[A]

How did you decide to put, put it in a flip book book form?

[B]

Do you know what? It was my daughter Kate, who's in graphic design and she really helped me because the story is I wrote a non fiction book called Seated with Christ Living Freely in a Culture of Comparison that became a bestseller. And mothers love that. It frees you from jealousy and comparison. So many of their moms said, wait, I wish I had this book for, from my daughter before she starts middle school. Because that's usually the age where you realize you don't have a seat with the popular girls and that's a big part. So Kate helped me think through. Okay, wait, no, it should be a novel and let's make it fun. If an 8 year old reads it, let's put some secret things in there like a flip book. It was all Kate's idea. So my child is a genius. No, she, she is just really good with design and thinking through what young people enjoy.

[A]

I loved it. You know that the thought of coming of age in a technical technological age where you've got, you know, the girls that are friends and then all of a sudden the friends are like, well, my tick tock is exploding. Yeah, I think, I think Margot was gonna get a brand deal because she's verified.

[B]

Yeah. Or.

[A]

I mean, this is so applicable. It's like the, you know, the girl who doesn't have the phone or doesn't have the social media channels doesn't get to know what everybody's school schedules are because they shared them on Snapchat. And we've got a kid that's on a volleyball team and she showed up and, like, everyone had all this glitter in their hair to match their outfits. And I was like, and my kid doesn't care about glitter in her hair. I think she probably wouldn't want it. But I was like, honey. I was like, how? Like, what happened with that? Like, how come you didn't have glitter in your head? Did you just not want to? And she was like, well, they communicated on Snapchat that they were doing, and I don't have Snapchat. So I was like, oh, my gosh.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But tons in here about nature. You know, the porcupines and birds can predict storms in. In the. I mean, it's so perfectly aligned.

[B]

It's. It's your whole podcast. It's your whole world. The whole thing is get in nature. Nature's marvelous.

[A]

You.

[B]

You learn how good she feels about herself when she's in nature. And just the infinite mystery of things in nature. You just wait. The other book, she's. There's hibernating bears. She's going to find an eastern screech owl. You just wait. She's going to make maple seeds syrup by the end. In some of the other books. Yeah, it's gonna be great.

[A]

This main character says, I think I most myself when I'm in the woods. Nature doesn't expect anything from you or judge you about anything. It doesn't reward you for being pretty or funny or popular. It doesn't care about your clothing. Let me keep going.

[B]

Yeah, it just. You're yourself.

[A]

I could swing my arms in big circles as I stomp around in the woods to scatter any birds if I want. I could hang from a tree limb like a little kid, pretend I wasn't expect explorer seeing land for the first time. Or act like an abandoned child being raised by fairies and gnomes who delivered wild berries on plates made of bark and oak leaves to keep me alive. The Pennsylvania woods.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

And this is a little bit of a tie in, too. I saw some parallels. Like, one of the ones was about my mom says my greatest flaw is keeping things to myself. You know, like we don't open up or sometimes we talk too much. Like there was a Lot of tie ins between both of these books that I read. And a main theme was you keep thinking if you only had a seat there, you'd be truly, truly happy. You'd be okay inside.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so it's what the mom is learning and the child.

[B]

Yes. It's about that moment that you walk into the lunchroom or whatever it is. If you're homeschooling. It's still the same. You walk into a room and you know there's a popular group and you're not. You're not part of it, or you don't have a seat at the table that you thought you'd have a seat at. Maybe you don't get an invitation to a birthday party. Whatever it is, this book is about how to heal from that situation. Know that you're already seated at the greatest table with Jesus. And being able to picture that when you walk into a room heals that part, that scar inside that little girl or boy. Boys read this book, too. And to just start picturing what it means that you're already seated with Jesus and that he has a perfect table for you and great things that he wants to have planned for you. So my character's in Nature Club. She does a science project on the red fox. She loves being in nature. And then as you follow her through the series, you see kind of more and more what happens when she's out in nature. And a lot of it is based on how I raised my own girls in the Pennsylvania woods. Out here, I'm in Center County, Pennsylvania. A lot of game lands and streams and creeks around us. Are you guys in the woods where you are, Ginny, or are you, like, in a city?

[A]

Well, we're. But we're out in a little bit out in the country. But we're not in the woods either.

[B]

Either. Okay. That's fun.

[A]

Yeah, it is. Well, I know you talked about, like, October in Pennsylvania looks like a forest full of fireworks frozen overhead. And I was like, oh, it is so beautiful in the. In the Midwest in the fall, you say I pictured. This is one of the things that main character says. I pictured all the things I love in nature that cost me nothing to observe. The turtles, the owls, the deer, the fox. And then you said you would do some of this with your dad.

[B]

Yes. In fact, I grew up on Little Hunting Creek, and, well, we were a military family, but we spent most of my teen and then growing up years on Little Hunting Creek, which is part of the Potomac river in Virginia. So I grew up every day after School looking for turtles. I had my own little canoe, and I would fish, and I would look for frogs and tadpoles. But one day, a red fox crossed my path back there, and I noticed that it would come the same time every day. So that year, my dad and I figured out a science project for me where I tried to track the hunting patterns of this red fox. And I made it to, like, the regional science fair, and I charted out my whole backyard, and I learned how the fox is a very scheduled creature, and it follows the sun. It will hunt the same time. It has different trails. Anyway. They're genius creatures. So I included all of that from my childhood in these books about just how. How healing nature was. And to this very day, I don't think there's anything more marvelous than finding a turtle in the woods. It's still my favorite thing.

[A]

And you just see she, like, loves her life out in nature and her. And it affords her friend group also to have all this beautiful time out in nature. And the woman that she's kind of being mentored by, it's like a little sweet relationship with a neighbor. Says, I wasted a lot of my life fighting for my seat at the table. And it just is such a good depiction of, like, oh, there's a lot out there for you, you know?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yep. Her mentor, Mrs. Bergley, helps her out. Helps her love the beauty of nature. Yep.

[A]

Yep. I loved it. I loved it. Heather. What a book. What a conversation. What a set of books. And I know there's more than this. Than this middle grade novel. There's currently two more and one more that's coming out this year, Is that correct?

[B]

Yes. And the teacher, Mrs. Crisp, in the book, makes the children do conversation training, so your daughter or son will get all the conversation tips as they read along. Yeah, the. The last book in the series is coming out in July, but the three books are out, and there's also a companion journal for them to start journaling things that they're learning mostly to. Just like Alida Brown, my character, she has a field notes journal where she recruited chords, like what she learns in nature. So I made one for the readers, and that's called the Sit and Savor Journal. It's on my website. I use it too. It's sort of like little girl. Little readers can write down five things they're thankful for, five things they're trusting God for, friends they're praying for, notes, and then things they're learning. And then it also has coloring pages, which I love from nature so you have little. It's cute. The sit and savor journal. I know, I love it. Do you have, do you have little girls? Jenny, you have a nine year old?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Is she the youngest?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Oh, my gosh.

[A]

Yeah, it's fun. These are fun ages. So everybody can find [e-mail] I'll make sure. I'll put that in the show. Notes that people can click on it. The Seated with Christ book that you talked about and all these novels and more and the journals and Heather, this has been a delight. We always end our show with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood? That was outside. We might have already covered it. I'm not sure.

[B]

Well, probably finding baby turtles hatching in my backyard on the river. Yeah, there's nothing better than watching hatching things. So finding bird nests, finding eggs that are hatching, that's like my favorite thing in the entire world is hatching things.

[A]

I've never seen that. I've seen it with chicks. We did it in an incubator once.

[B]

Don't you love looking for bird nests, though? Isn't it such a delight when you find a bird nest? You find. Feel like chosen when they. Or. And in the third book, they're obsessed with finding a hummingbird nest. They're like so tiny. They're like so tiny, but you can find them. Wow. Anyway, Marveling.

[A]

I love your. Your enthusiasm for nature.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

So I didn't know what to expect with this middle grades novel and I was like, oh my goodness, no.

[B]

I hope you love it. What's. What about you? What's your favorite thing you've ever experienced in nature?

[A]

When we were kids, my. We, our church did a father daughter canoe trip and they did it in October. So, you know, it's cold. It's cold by October in Michigan. And so they do this father daughter canoe trip. Like probably one night, you know, we go up north to Mayo, Michigan on Friday and all the dads and their daughters. And then you'd wake up early Saturday and put on your winter coat and hop in a canoe.

[B]

Oh my gosh.

[A]

And canoe down the Ausable river and you'd have snacks and you're with all your friends.

[B]

And I love, I love the snacks.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you remember those snacks?

[A]

They were the, the Nature Valley granola bars. The ones that like crumble everywhere.

[B]

They crumble? What's wrong with it? Someone needs to redo those. Yes.

[A]

Are they not working? I don't know. Connected. They just crumble everywhere. But we put them in big Ziploc bags and I just, I love that. And I still love being on the river and I'm sure that it's.

[B]

I love being on the river and I love snacks. I love snacks. In nature there's nothing better than hiking and being like, I need my snacks.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

So. Oh, you're so fun, Jenny.

[A]

We're connected, Heather.

[B]

I wish we lived closer. We could go. I love walking every day in nature. We could observe things together. We could go on a little all walk. Thank you for having me. This has been so fun. This has been the best.

[A]

It's been so fun. Ryan Reynolds here from IT Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for 15amonth plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail]

[B]

Switch upfront payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month. Required intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees, extra fee, full [e-mail].