103 - John Coltrane - Giant Steps - James Mattern

Summary

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Podcast Summary

The 500 with Josh Adam Meyers

Episode 103: John Coltrane – Giant Steps (with James Mattern)
June 17, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, comedian and host Josh Adam Meyers brings on fellow comic and music enthusiast James Mattern to dissect John Coltrane's landmark 1960 jazz album Giant Steps, the 103rd entry on Rolling Stone’s list of the 500 Greatest Albums of All Time. The conversation explores the album’s intimidating complexity, its legacy in jazz and beyond, and Coltrane’s artistic journey. Both admit they're not trained jazz critics but show infectious passion, humor, and reverence for the otherworldly impact of Coltrane’s innovations.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Is Giant Steps So Legendary and Intimidating?

• Giant Steps is described as a work that “terrifies music students, inspires generations of jazz musicians and caused thousands of saxophone players to stare at sheet music like they just got served divorce papers.” (07:09)
• The album is famed for introducing "Coltrane changes"—complex harmonic progressions that still daunt even expert musicians.
• Josh: “Coltrane basically announcing to the world, I’m done playing checkers. Everybody else, you play checkers. I’m inventing quantum chess.” (03:14)
• James notes the “flex” of being able to play the title track and how it’s a rite of passage and a bragging point among jazz musicians. (25:47)
• The title track, "Giant Steps," is highlighted as a daunting “SAT for jazz nerds.”

2. Jazz as a Challenge and a Spiritual Search

• Jazz’s intimidating reputation: “For people to get into jazz, it’s like...not just going in the beach, into the ocean. It’s like just jumping in, in the middle of the ocean off a boat and trying to figure out what you’re doing.” (16:19)
• Both agree that jazz’s openness to interpretation, lack of lyrics, and abstract nature make it less accessible to casual listeners than pop or rock.
• Instrumental music tells a story—to each person, it means something different. “The beauty with this is these songs all tell a story, and to you, it might be different than what I’m hearing… and it’s probably different than what Trane was playing and meant by that.” (19:17 – James)
• Coltrane is cast as a relentless searcher, always reaching for spiritual meaning: “It seemed like he was on the spiritual quest, and that's got to be crazy for people to hear.” (19:49)

3. Personal Journeys into Jazz

• Josh and James relate personal stories about learning to appreciate jazz. Josh’s initial boredom in a jazz-obsessed house shifts to deep love when he discovers Miles Davis through college radio. (32:11)
• James: “When I went to New Orleans the first time...I just remember those couple days having the time of my life...I just left fired up about it and I just started listening more.” (36:56)

4. Giant Steps vs. Kind of Blue and Other Jazz Landmarks

• The hosts compare Giant Steps to the more accessible Kind of Blue by Miles Davis, noting that while the latter is widely loved by new fans, Giant Steps is “not as accessible...it’s nowhere near as passionate, as complicated, as interesting for someone that now knows music.” (22:08)
• They recommend starting jazz exploration with the big five albums: Kind of Blue, The Shape of Jazz to Come, Time Out, Mingus Ah Um, and possibly Giant Steps if you're ready for a challenge. (27:22-28:57)

5. The Culture and Competitiveness of Jazz

• James and Josh discuss the “sport” of jazz, especially among men: “This is a real dude type thing where — Hey, what’d you do? Oh, I learned how to play Giant Steps. I can do it in all the keys.” (25:47)
• Amusingly, this bravado is contrasted with stories of band members who struggled on the original recording (e.g., pianist Tommy Flanagan), highlighting how even the best can be overwhelmed by Coltrane's vision. (47:59)
• Flanagan’s later tribute album, where he finally nails the changes, reinforces the idea that Giant Steps is a lifelong test piece for jazz musicians. (49:13)

6. Coltrane’s Life, Artistic Transformation, and Spiritual Awakening

• In-depth history: Coltrane’s early years learning from Parker, addiction troubles, firing by Miles Davis, and isolation leading to a “spiritual awakening.” (53:36-56:35)
  • Coltrane: “During that year in 57, I experienced by the grace of God a spiritual waking which has led me to a richer, fuller and more productive life.”
• Coltrane’s focus after this point: “I want to be a force for real good...I want to create the best I can create...make the most beautiful music I can make.” (56:37)

7. Comparisons to Comedy and Flexing Artistic Muscle

• Both draw vivid analogies between musicians and comedians—striving for personal expression, technical mastery, and healthy competition.
• Chappelle is held up as the comedy version of Coltrane or Miles—someone showing mastery, improvisation, and the ability to “flex” at the highest level. (50:50-52:45)
  • James: “What Chappelle is now is somewhere in between Miles Davis and Mark Twain.” (51:43)

8. Why Giant Steps Matters in the Modern Canon

• Coltrane’s “quantum leap” harmonies added fundamentally new possibilities to jazz and music in general.
• “Most masterpieces perfect...an existing idea. Where Giant Steps introduced an entirely new harmonic system.” (39:45)
• Even among jazz legends, there was a noted difference—Miles questioned the need for “all those notes,” to which Coltrane's answer was, “Why not?” (61:32)
• The record’s place isn't due to sales or popularity, but for representing the outer limits of human musical achievement. (70:03)

9. How to Approach Listening to Giant Steps

• This is NOT background or make-out music; it demands attention. “The sound of the tenor sax is so important...breaking into your ecosystem and it's like sex about being present…there's too much going on.” (68:05)
• Their advice: Don’t expect to “get it” the first time. Start with Kind of Blue or Brubeck, then challenge yourself with Giant Steps. It’s “the most feared song in jazz...scares them because it's a challenge. Because a mad scientist decided he needed to push himself spiritually and skill wise into this direction.” (68:49 – James)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Intimidation:
  • “You mention Coltrane changes, and suddenly they’re looking for a safe word.”
    — Josh (07:54)
• On Artistic “Flex”:
  • “This is a real dude type thing where—‘Hey what’d you do?’—‘Oh, I learned how to play Giant Steps. I can do it in all the keys.’ That’s a flex. That is such a big thing.”
    — James (25:47)
• On Instrumentals as Theater:
  • “It is that whole idea of closing your eyes and it’s a story. You know what they used to say about radio, right? It was the theater of the mind. It can go anywhere you want.”
    — James (18:14)
• On Coltrane’s Spiritual Shift:
  • “During that year in 57, I experienced by the grace of God a spiritual waking which has led me to a richer, fuller and more productive life.”
    — Josh, quoting Coltrane (56:10)
• Comic Comparison:
  • “To me, what Chappelle is now is somewhere in between Miles Davis and Mark Twain. You take our two analogies. I think that’s perfect.”
    — James (51:43)
• On the Album’s Legacy:
  • “When people talk about the absolute limits of what human beings can create, I think that Giant Steps has to be part of that conversation.”
    — Josh (70:31)

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Important Timestamps

• [07:09] – Why jazz (and this album) is intimidating
• [16:19] – The challenge of entering jazz fandom—comparison to soccer leagues
• [19:17] – Instrumental music and personal meaning
• [22:08] – Comparing Giant Steps vs. Kind of Blue (accessibility)
• [25:47] – The “flex” and masculine competition in jazz
• [39:45] – Giant Steps as an invention, not just a perfection
• [47:59] – Tommy Flanagan struggling on the recording, symbolism of difficulty
• [50:50] – Comparing Coltrane’s “flex” to Chappelle in comedy
• [53:36] – Brief Coltrane biography and personal transformation
• [56:10] – Coltrane’s spiritual awakening and intention
• [61:32] – The Miles–Coltrane philosophical split: “Why all those notes?” “Why not?”
• [68:05] – Why this record is “not sexy background music”
• [68:49] – How to introduce Giant Steps—“most feared song in jazz”

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Final Thoughts and Recommendations

• Best Tracks:
  • James’s favorite: “Mr. PC” (66:40)
  • Josh’s favorite: “Giant Steps” (67:08)
• Skip Tracks?
  • James admits “the ballad”—“Naima”—is not his favorite, despite its classic status. (67:19)
• Listening Recommendations:
  • Watch the Vox YouTube mini-doc, “The Most Feared Song in Jazz” (68:49)
  • Suggested jazz ‘starter kit’: Kind of Blue (Miles Davis), Time Out (Brubeck), The Shape of Jazz to Come (Ornette Coleman), Mingus Ah Um (Charles Mingus), and, for the adventurous, Giant Steps.
  • “Don’t expect to get it the first try. Listen first, then revisit after exploring more accessible jazz.”
• Legacy:
  • Giant Steps is for those who want to test themselves as listeners or musicians. Not intended as easy listening, but as a summit of artistic and technical possibility.

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Conclusion

Josh and James close the episode with reflections on Coltrane’s relentless self-challenge, artistic spirituality, and boundary-pushing composition. The discussion is a blend of reverent deep-dive, comic wit, and personal storytelling, welcoming both jazz veterans and newbies to appreciate the artistry—and the flex—of Giant Steps.

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Further Engagement

• James Mattern: Instagram @theJamesMattern, shows on jamesmattern.com
• Next week: Cream – Fresh Cream (1966)

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“When people talk about the absolute limits of what human beings can create, I think that Giant Steps has to be part of that conversation.”
— Josh Adam Myers (70:31)

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Transcript

[Josh Adam Myers]

Next Chapter Podcasts Hey Fleece army, we need your help to make the 500 even better by telling us a bit more about yourself. Go to www.surveymonkey.com R3TWX8YD for a quick listener survey. It only takes a few minutes and directly supports our team. To show our appreciation, we're giving away two 50 gift cards to lucky participants every single month. So head to www.www.surveymonkey.com R as in Randy, slash 3 the number T as in Tony. W as in Woman. X as in Xerox. And 8 as the number Y is in yellow. D as in Dog. I'm saying this, we're gonna put the link on our website. If you can't see that, that was a lot. But this is your chance to win. It helps our show. We really appreciate it. We want to know more about you because you know so much about me. So yeah, dude, do it. Www.surveymonkey.com TWX8Y D that's a mouthful, but it's there.

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[Podcast Announcer]

The 500. The 500. JM been walking us down through that 2012 edition, so it ain't nothing to you. Hundreds more to go. And in need of a friend, the king of peace, Michelangelo. Talking the 500 until the end Talking the 500 until the end with my man JL on the 500 Talking the 500 until the end.

[Josh Adam Myers]

It's a title track from John coltrane's record from 1960. It's also number 103 out of 500 on the 500 with Josh Adam Myers. What's up party people? I gotta make this quick because I'm going to see Rosalia and we just recorded this at the last minute this weekend. You can see me at the Sacramento punchline. Be there or be square. It's Going to be a party. I'm excited to see everybody. So come one, come all. It's going to rule. Josh Adam.com for tickets or at Josh Adam on all social media we got a YouTube, YouTube.com backslash the 500 podcast and our patreon patreon.com baby bop. Patreon.com backslash the 500 Podcast. Guys, subscribe support. We love you guys. All right, let's get to this week's record. We are talking about a masterpiece from 1960. It's an album that jazz students are afraid of. Giant Steps is Coltrane basically announcing to the world, I'm done playing checkers. Everybody else, you play checkers. I'm inventing quantum chess. That's how complicated this record is and that's why we're talking about it on the 500. And my guest today is one of my close friends, the one and only James Mattern. James is one of the funniest comedians I know. He is one of the greatest comedy hosts and more importantly, he's on the show today. You can follow him online at the James Maddern. He's been on before. He gets our complicated records and I am so excited. Jamesmattern.com if you want all things James, watch his clips, buy his album. He is the best rate, review and most Importantly, subscribe to the 500. Listen pre on all platforms or anywhere you get your podcast. Follow me at Josh Adam Myers on all socials. Follow the podcast at the 500 podcast. Email the [e-mail] Follow the Facebook group run by Crazy Evan. And for all things 500, go to the website the500podcast.com. None left to say, but here we go. Number 103 out of 500 with giant steps by Coltrane.

[Poet or Musician]

Or.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah, recording. We're. We're recording now, dude. We're there. We're there. We're square. We're keeping it.

[James Maddern]

Pubic hair, everyone's favorite.

[Josh Adam Myers]

How do I. You start with an intro.

[James Maddern]

But I mean, it's your show. Whatever makes you feel good inside. I could just be anonymous the whole time. It really isn't going to change the world. That would be fun. This week's guest, Anonymous.

[Josh Adam Myers]

This is. We have the guy that single handedly brought down like all the computer systems. You're that guy. You're the guy. You're the fucking.

[James Maddern]

He can't be anonymous anymore.

[Josh Adam Myers]

What's the guy's name? Louis Farrakhan. That's not it.

[Guest Comedian]

It most certainly wasn't Louis Farrakhan.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I wouldn't mind having him on what

[James Maddern]

album would he talk about? The Staple Singers.

[Josh Adam Myers]

That's actually a good one. I would say maybe, like backstabbers. Like the smiling OJ's smiling in your face. Oh, girl, they're gonna get your space. The Banks. I would say Public Enemy.

[James Maddern]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Guest Comedian]

Or what's his. Oh, Harry Belafonte.

[James Maddern]

I have a feeling Harry Belafonte did not make the list, though.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I could see that. I could. I could see that.

[Guest Comedian]

Well, Harry Belafonte, you know, inducted Public

[James Maddern]

Enemy, which is wild, because I just don't know if he was sitting and

[Guest Comedian]

listening to their albums, but he clearly, it was because they were political and he was political, and his speech was amazing. But his voice was kind of. It kind of sounded like a. I can't even do the impression. Like a robot. Like that robot that tortures R2D2 in

[James Maddern]

return of the Jedi.

[Guest Comedian]

And Jabba's a deep cut in Jabba's mansion. And so it was. It's Treat yourself, everybody. This is Anonymous speaking again. Go treat yourself to this album we're about to talk to and Harry Belafonte's speech, the Rock and Roll hall of

[James Maddern]

Fame for Public Enemy.

[Josh Adam Myers]

This is where if we were doing this actually at the studio and have the producer pull that up right now, and we'd watch it, and we laugh. But unfortunately, yeah, for Anonymous, you can't go out in public and people can't see your face. So now, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the 500. Obviously, we're chipping our way through the Rolling Stone magazine list of the 500 Greatest Albums. And today we are talking about an album that, I would say, terrified music students, inspired generations of jab musicians and caused thousands of saxophone players to stare at sheet music like they just got served divorce papers. Because we are talking about. About arguably one of the greatest jazz records of all time, John Coltrane's Giant Steps.

[Guest Comedian]

Good riff, huh?

[Josh Adam Myers]

That's. That's. I mean, I'm gonna sample that in a minute, but. But the record came out in 60. 66 years later. Dude, think about that. People are still treating this like the title track of an SAT for jazz nerds. Oh, there are guitar players who can play every Anthrax Rift blindfolded. But you mention Coltrane changes, and suddenly they're looking for a safe word. And speaking of anthrax. No, it's not. Scotty. I don't know why we don't have anthrax. We have a guy that was putting anthrax in everybody's letters. The one and Only Anonymous, AKA the. I mean, the. I would say one of the greatest hosts in all of comedy.

[Guest Comedian]

Thank you, my friend.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Like, more energy than me on a dead night. I feel like you and I can go head to head on energy. But I will say this. What I love about you, and I think most people don't know, is you are not only a great comic, but you wanted to be a music critic in your younger days and sometimes in

[James Maddern]

my older days as well.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I think I feel like you still do it. I feel like you're still like. Because I'll bring records to you when I'll show up at the Cellar and you'll be sitting there eating your, like, your very healthy meal or whatever. Your shift meal.

[Guest Comedian]

Shift meal, yes.

[Poet or Musician]

And.

[Josh Adam Myers]

And I'll say I'm. Listen, Steve Earl, Guitar Town. You're like, good stuff, liberal country, you know, good for the flyover states. Really made him feel the energy of. What was it like in 1986 in the neoliberal country era?

[James Maddern]

That was an ad lib, everyone. I didn't actually say those. I didn't ask him, but he did a grill. He really painted a real picture.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I actually. That record I probably would have brought up to you when I was doing it, because that was one of the first 20. So that was before I moved out.

[Guest Comedian]

Well, he's in the neighborhood of the Cellar. He lives in Greenwich Hills. At least last I saw. Unless he's moved in the last couple years. I've seen him in front of comedy seller quite a bit.

[Josh Adam Myers]

He's been doing like monthly shows in either the Gramercy Theater or he's done City Winery. City Winery a lot. Which I. I mean is a. I don't want to sit here and say it's a. It's a. It's a great venue. I just feel weird watching stand up, not stand up comedy music there. Especially someone like Steve. I don't know. I just feel like he doesn't do the songs the way that I like the songs. Oh, does that make sense?

[James Maddern]

Strictly at that venue?

[Guest Comedian]

Yeah.

[James Maddern]

I mean, look, a lot of people, I mean, this has been the issue with Dylan for quite a long time is you're gonna go there and halfway through the song you go, oh, that's Heaven's Door. Well, that's Tangled up in Blue. You don't realize there he's playing it.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah, that's Lauryn Hill. We just saw Lauren Hill when she. She ended Chappelle's show at the Palladium. And it was exactly her way and only her way. And it was in a way that if you wanted to sing along to it, like, I think she played one song the actual way.

[James Maddern]

Interesting. And artists are allowed to do that, obviously, and rearrange. But I'll tell you now, clearly, she was just doing that at someone else's show. So it's not a big deal. But when you buy a ticket. So I get in trouble, and then we can get into this record. I, as a huge Beastie Boys fan, borderline fanatic. I get in trouble because I tell them I hated seeing them with Mixmaster Mike. I don't know how I would react If I met Mixmaster Mike, a part of me thinks I'd want to shake his hand and say, man, cool. You worked with one of my three favorite bands. That influenced my whole being. Even in Comedy B, every time you go see him live or you try to watch a live clip with them, it's three to four bars of what the song is musically. And then it's Tom Sawyer, a dog farting the intro to what's Happening. And it's like, I don't know what song we're doing now. Why did I spend money to see this? And it's. And it's now it's Thelonious Monk tuning up in the background while they're doing the rhymes, which is great. The rhymes are great, but the music's part of it. I hate it. You should be allowed to improvise, mix things up, take people on journeys. But, I mean, it's a lot of balls for people to pay money to hear songs from an artist they love, and they don't sound like what they know.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Okay, so question then. One of my favorite singers of all time, if not artists of all time, is Amy Winehouse.

[James Maddern]

Okay.

[Josh Adam Myers]

And I think one of the reasons. I think I know one of the reasons why I love her is because she never sang. The music might be the same, but she never sings the song the same way. And, I mean, she'll hit choruses and stuff like that, but. But she uses her voice like Prince's guitar, and that's what I love.

[James Maddern]

And I think that's wonderful. But the chords, that's the thing. So you could go see someone do a stripped down version of their songs, and it's great. Still, the chords. The melody is still there. You're kind of destroying it now. Hip hop, you know, it's. It's about the rhymes over the beat and whatever the music is. But, dude, even the beat, it seems like a chain. It just. Man, give me what I like, like, I'm telling you, you, you go see so what you want. And halfway through the song, the last time I saw him, I'm like, what is this again? So. But you'll see someone go and change it. You know, I listened to Randy Newman. He did a songbook, right? Because he's such a great writer. Awesome. Just him in the piano doing these songs. Bare bones. Excellent. I'd almost rather if the Beastie Boys did something live or on an album if there was like a piano and they're rhyming over that with minimal beats. That to me would be more interesting than just showing how great you are as a DJ by just sampling 75, 000 things at once and making my head explode.

[Guest Comedian]

I didn't want to see that.

[James Maddern]

All due respect to him, he's absolutely spectacular what he does, but it's not for me. When I bought a ticket to see this band, I have idolized most of my life.

[Josh Adam Myers]

And here's the good thing. You're probably never going to see them again.

[James Maddern]

Never going to see them again. Well, my D. But that's another story.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I don't think they'll ever, I mean.

[James Maddern]

Well, Mike's working now doing a couple.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I mean, as, as a whole. Never, I mean, yeah, I mean, you know, God bless mca. I was going to say amc. God bless AMC. Theaters Stubbs All Star Super Gold. No, I, I. One of the favorite things I ever saw, a Tibetan Freedom Concert and I love that story of, of it was, I think it was Governor's Ball or one of those festivals here in New York where Beastie Boys, I think it was their festival or something, they were doing something, but they were the second headliner right below Radiohead. And one of the Beastie Boys either broke his foot on stage because it was raining or sl. Or got shocked or something. And then Radiohead because they lost almost like 45 minutes out of their set because of that. And so Radiohead came out and played like a three hour show for everybody. And I think there was a mutual respect between artists, especially the ones that were on like Tibetan Freedom Concert, like the Bjorks and the, you know, the Slater Kenny's and all of those. It's especially, you would never think that like, you know, if you compare early Beastie Boys to, you know, like the way they evolved. Do you know what I mean? Of course, it's like Radiohead would have, they would have never gotten along with Radiohead back in their drinking, partying days. And then it's like.

[James Maddern]

But that was long Gone.

[Podcast Announcer]

And that was.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah, that's.

[James Maddern]

That's what's meant to be parody that they bought into for a brief period.

[Guest Comedian]

But.

[Josh Adam Myers]

But that's. The thing about you is, is I understand your musical taste is. Is a wide net why you know so much. And that was why, like, we're about

[James Maddern]

to say I don't know nearly enough when it comes to this.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Sure. I mean.

[James Maddern]

I mean, look, look, it's intimidating to talk about a jazz record. And. And full disclosure, we can be perfectly frank here.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Right.

[James Maddern]

And honest.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Please.

[James Maddern]

You booked me about three hours ago. I was not prepared for this. It was just timing. I did not know, and I am so intimidated. But I reached out to every jazz musician I could think of to get as much info and hear stories from them. So I'm gonna give you all I have. But jazz in general to talk about is so intimidating, Josh.

[Guest Comedian]

And it's intimidating for people to get into.

[James Maddern]

I compare it to the World Cup's going on now. But when people talk about how they want to get into soccer, they're so scared to learn about, like, the leagues because there's so many of them, and it's overwhelming.

[Guest Comedian]

You'll see people walk in their jerseys or kits, and you'll be like, what is Celtic?

[James Maddern]

What is Porto? What is Milan? They all play together. No, they're separate leagues. So do I have to. It's people. When they get into jazz, it's so. It's like not just going in the beach, into the ocean.

[Guest Comedian]

It's like just jumping in.

[James Maddern]

In the middle of the ocean off a boat and trying to figure out what you're doing.

[Guest Comedian]

It's the whole thing. And the people who really love it, who've dedicated their life, take it incredibly serious now.

[James Maddern]

I don't think they've been listening necessarily.

[Guest Comedian]

You're going to get too many of

[James Maddern]

them listening to this podcast, in all due respect, because this is more pop music and rock music and that, but, you know, they'll find it astray, and it's very intimidating because of how much they love it.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Well, I think it's easy for. For rock and roll. And I. I think there's like, oh, my God, my dog. It's like, I've never had more wires out and, like, it couldn't be more. Yeah, like, I get the. Oh, she can't. That's why the guitar. Can you move that guitar real quick? Can you just move that stand so she can get out of there? And then I'll finish that. Here, cut this part out, Peter. All right, so you can hear what I'm saying? Yeah. So I think rock and roll, you can. It's easy to explain certain things of certain musics, right? Where rock is loud, I think country is sad. Metal can be angry. But jazz is like the question mark. It's because jazz fans could be like, well, this section explores the tension between implied harmonic substitutions and post bop existentialism. You know what I mean? And. And when it comes to, like, you know, guys like us, we're just, well, I like the drums, you know? And.

[James Maddern]

And, well, here's the thing with it, though, right? And when you read up and when you talk to musicians, it's almost like comedians.

[Guest Comedian]

It's crazy, right? So we just tell jokes and punch lines. People don't realize sometimes there's a deeper thing with them. There's an emotional connection to a joke. We're just trying to get laughs from people.

[James Maddern]

But people do tend to write personal.

[Guest Comedian]

When I do write more personal stuff and it doesn't get a laugh, it hurts because I'm still trying to express myself. Even as pretentious as that sounds, the minute I spoke this, I felt self indulgent, so forgive me, but jazz musicians are doing that. Like, I love instrumental music. I have friends who hate it. I have a friend who did not want to do a. A fella's trip to New Orleans because, like, I need lyrics. I'm like, we're gonna be sitting at a pub, drinking and eating and talking to each other. We're not. It's just great background. You're not gonna really be like, wow, did he say the moon rises in the north? Like, no one cares. So it's crazy. People don't realize with, like, instrumentals, it is that whole idea of closing your eyes and it's a story. You know what they used to say about radio, right? It was the theater of the mind. It can go anywhere you want.

[James Maddern]

Just like, even songs with lyrics, I

[Guest Comedian]

love the artists who don't tell you

[James Maddern]

what they wrote, what they meant, because they're like, I know what it means to me. But you, the listener, the customer, whatever,

[Guest Comedian]

thinks of something else.

[James Maddern]

I don't want to ruin your experience

[Guest Comedian]

of what you're feeling. And the beauty with this is these songs all tell a story, and to you, it might be different than what I'm hearing. And that's the beauty. And it's probably different than what Trane

[James Maddern]

was playing and meant by that and

[Guest Comedian]

what he felt about it. That's the beauty of it. And that's what's great about Instrumental and that they. You know, the thing you read about Trane is that he was just constantly trying to express himself better.

[James Maddern]

And it. It almost.

[Guest Comedian]

It comes off. And once again, forgive me to the experts on this, but it seemed like he was on the spiritual quest, and that's got to be crazy for people to hear.

[James Maddern]

We're just playing your saxophone or whatever and playing jazz, and it's going to.

[Guest Comedian]

And what quest is that? Well, you're. You're leaving who you are out there when you play. You know, I mean, we all talk about, like, these guitar players. You could. Prince said more sometimes when he didn't talk, when he just played his guitar.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah.

[Guest Comedian]

Neil Young with one note can. Sometimes you can. I know how he's feeling, and it's beautiful that way.

[Josh Adam Myers]

And I'm gonna spin it back to Amy. I feel Amy's almost the same way in the way that she sang is because, like, some days when she sat her, it, like, it might have been a more blue version of a song. And sometimes she's in a better mood. She's. She's going for higher notes. She's scatting more. And I think that, you know, you. You can. You can use your voice as that kind of instrument. But I also think someone like her, which is so special, is that she is influenced by all these jazz people. And I think the way. If she would have kept living, I think she would have gone more into where Lady Gaga kind of has gone into that, like, not. I don't ever say lounge singer stuff, but, you know, doing, like, the great American songbook, the Cole Porter, the, you

[James Maddern]

know, what's the singer, not the song. And the voice is an instrument. My favorite singer probably is Frank Sinatra. And the thing that makes him great, as it's been noted by many people, is his phrasing is different, those pauses, because he went about it as being an actor. He would. We would. You know, because he didn't write. And back then, it didn't matter. No one wrote. But he'd only pick a piece of music if he could play the part or if he related to it or if he could or he related to who the character was singing in that song. And so he was an actor, and he. It's fascinating. And he would add things and subtract things and just. It's crazy when you hear other people or like the original versions of some songs and they. And then Frank does it and you're like, oh, man. It's just a slight pause or a slight spreading out of a word. Holding a syllable, an extra beat or two, that changes everything.

[Josh Adam Myers]

So.

[James Maddern]

So, I mean, that's an instrument. That's playing an instrument.

[Josh Adam Myers]

For sure. For sure. But why is. Why is jazz, then, when we can sit here? Okay, let's say this. This record is not as accessible to a non jazz fan as something like Kind of Blue, right, where you can put on Kind of Blue. And it's not aggressive if there's a lot going on in some of the solos, but it's nowhere near as. As passionate, as complicated, you know, as. As interesting for someone that now knows music as much as we do. Like, where we can listen to culturing because we know other jazz. Like, why is. Why is this. Why would this album be something so. Like, we were talking about it. Like, why is this so far on the list?

[James Maddern]

Okay.

[Guest Comedian]

Yes.

[James Maddern]

And it did shock me that this is the one. I mean, it's not as accessible. Look, the big one for him, the Bottom Bitch for him, of course, is Love supreme or, you know, and then Favorite Things is a. What I would say is basically a pop hit. Everyone knows that song and people play it at the holidays.

[Guest Comedian]

The other day, ironic.

[James Maddern]

I was listening to Meditations before. I did a show in Michigan the other day. I love that record because it's just more kinetic and frantic and just. It's great right before you perform. And I was doing my box Breathing and that before that. And it really got me in the right place, this record. So, yeah, I was wondering, like, how a music magazine that's mostly rock and roll and pop culture and pop, why would it get this record? And as we were spitballing off Mike, this list is compiled by Rolling Stone writers, editors, contributors, but also musicians. Correct. And so this is whether they are doing it because they actually love this record or. And I think this is going to become a theme in this episode, a flex. This is a musician. The title, tr. Look, if. If was there seven on this album.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Let me take a look.

[James Maddern]

Eight.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah, I think it's about that. Yes. So off the top of my head, there's seven. There's seven on. On the one we are doing opens with Giant steps, ends with Mr. PC, a seven song.

[James Maddern]

So this was just two through seven. If they did not. The title track wasn't on this record, this record would not be on this list. Let's be fair. The title track, as you said in the intro, has frustrated. Has blown the minds of many musicians for years. Jazz students. This is a test for them. But this is also a flex amongst musicians. Can you play this can you do the 26 chord changes and what, 16 bars? Can you do that? It's a huge flexibility. I was reading and I don't want to screw up her name. There is a Norwegian saxophone player.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Bjork. No, you said sax player.

[James Maddern]

Yes. She's Iceland.

[Podcast Announcer]

Yes.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Daniel Simonson's sister.

[James Maddern]

Yes. And she had a wonderful take on. Seems that dudes really love this record and talk about it and are obsessed with learning it and women are not. And let's see, I'm going to mispronounce it. Freud agar. Forgive me, Ms. Sup Froy. Women are more. They more often compete with themselves and men compete with each other. And that is a fascinating thing. This is a real dude type thing where. Hey, what'd you do? Oh, I learned how to play Giant steps. I can do it in all the keys.

[Sponsor Voice]

What?

[James Maddern]

That's a flex. That is such a big thing. It's crazy. So this is a test. So it makes sense to me now whether all these wonderful musicians. This is their album and it could be. And this is a wonderful. I'm gonna put in the background.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Oh, man.

[James Maddern]

Just chill out. I'm sure if you're hooking up with someone, it's probably delightful. I mean, if they're, you know, into that.

[Josh Adam Myers]

But if it's like, there's a couple

[James Maddern]

tracks, maybe I wouldn't.

[Josh Adam Myers]

You need to be a real. With a real hip chick to be able to. To Coltrane.

[James Maddern]

Well, they're telling you, dude, this is.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I mean, because it's. It's like I'm telling. I keep going back to, like, you know. You keep going back to, like, kind of blue. You kind of blue.

[James Maddern]

Well, I mean, yes, you can. And absolutely. To love supreme.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. My Funny Valentine. Dude, you could like Baker like all that, you know, even Dave Brubeck.

[James Maddern]

Oh, Brubeck's terrific to take.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Was it Take five.

[James Maddern]

Well, that was a huge record. So, I mean, we might as well go with that as well. So if people don't realize this Coltrane is on Kind of Blue. He started recording this record in between sessions Are kind of blue. As I was here before with Ornette Coleman. There's a wonderful documentary that we were here for. Yes, I was. That we told people to watch then on YouTube. I believe it's still up on YouTube. Is 1959 the year that changed jazz. I believe that's the wording. I might be screwing up four albums. It is Ornette Coleman, the shape of jazz to come. It is Miles Davis kind of Blue Charles Mingus.

[Guest Comedian]

Aham.

[Josh Adam Myers]

And Timeout.

[James Maddern]

And Timeout. Dave Brubeck. So this album gets recorded right after it gets released, January of 1960. It just misses that window.

[Josh Adam Myers]

But it's all recorded in 59.

[James Maddern]

It's all recorded, but it's all in

[Guest Comedian]

like, all this is happening at the

[James Maddern]

same time, like three days.

[Josh Adam Myers]

He does like. He does like 80 of this record

[James Maddern]

on May 4th, he finishes the track named the tribute to his wife in December. But everything else.

[Josh Adam Myers]

No. May 5th. May 5th.

[Podcast Announcer]

He does.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah. It's May 5th. Giant Steps, cousin Mary the Fourth. He does Countdown, Spiral. Then he does. I'm gonna say if I get up. Cedars song, flute and Mr. PC all on May 5th. And then. And then literally, like, the reason why I think it came out in the next year is he. What. He added another track, which we'll get all that. But he did name a Naima.

[Guest Comedian]

Yeah. Can I not say it?

[James Maddern]

That's why I said the track that is dedicated to his.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I think it's Naima. It's got to be. That feels like a very. That feels the closest thing to the name that I would. I assume a black woman would have. Naima. I've heard that before.

[Guest Comedian]

Yeah.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I'm very hip. Everybody.

[James Maddern]

Everyone knows that about you.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I got. I got my ear. I got my ear to the. No, but you. You mentioned some of the greatest albums that we ever possibly could talk about. And in jazz, I would say, if you're gonna give people records.

[James Maddern]

Yeah. Start with those five and you'll be in good.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Oh, I say no. I say, yeah. Yes. But I say, like, sure, but if

[James Maddern]

you only got those five for a minute, you'd be in good hands.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Because. Because Miles is a guy that needs to be like Bob Dylan, where you need to start where he started and go to where, you know. Because you can't start with Brew. You're gonna hate him. You know what I mean?

[Poet or Musician]

You.

[Josh Adam Myers]

But you. But I do think the cop. The caveat is you can to an introductory person give someone kind of blue and then go, all right, now go listen to Bertha.

[Sponsor Voice]

Cool.

[James Maddern]

I think kind of blue. But also growing up in the 90s and reading guitar World and Guitar World used to do these lists and great writers. And one of the guys in Guitar World, JD Consonant, became the sub JD Huge. I think he might no longer be with us. You could look that up. But he became a big jazz writer. And there was a list, as we're getting close to the millennium of like, the big albums of the decade now, the 90s. At this point, the 90s still had like three years left, but whatever. So they're putting out these lists. And he put. For the 80s. I think he did the 80s. There's different writers for different decades. Pangea by Miles Davis, and I think that was huge to put in a guitar magazine for rock kids. I think if you play rock music and that you could start with Pangea, and that's a good starting place. Bitch's Brew is too much. But you can list. You can get into Pangea and then maybe move to Bitch's Brew and be okay. But yes, kind of blue. And then on the end, when he's just really fusioning it out and going nuts, something like Pangea is mind blowing.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah, I. I mean, I love some of Miles's older stuff, you know, but. But I think, like, if you're gonna introduce, like, me and my sister obviously grew up in a very jazz household with my dad. I talk about in the pod all. All the time. And, you know, my father would have never put giant steps on. And I know he was into a different kind of jazz. He was more. He was more into the modal. He was more into the, you know, he loved Oscar Peterson Trio, which I think is, you know, the best music to listen to as you walk around New York City on a quasi rainy day. He loved and my sister, once again, Dave Brubeck, you know, and not even just time out, like, the. What was the other song that they like? They loved. It was on that record.

[James Maddern]

I can't do the riff, the piano riff.

[Josh Adam Myers]

All I hear is Peewee's Big Adventure. But it's not that. It's. My mom had that as a ringtone for my sister. But those are like, you know, I would never give somebody in a million years, hey, you want to hear jazz for the first time Here, Listen to the shape of jazz. To come here. Listen.

[James Maddern]

Yeah, it's too much in a bad way. They run.

[Guest Comedian]

They.

[James Maddern]

We're on the fifth floor here. They would jump out that window five floors up. They wouldn't know what to do with themselves.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Please, not. Not here. There's already weird smells out there.

[James Maddern]

There's weird smells and all kinds of New York City. Yes.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I would say pre Civil war building, but, you know, I mean, you know, sure.

[James Maddern]

Yeah.

[Josh Adam Myers]

But when did you. I mean, as a music aficionado, can we call you.

[James Maddern]

I don't know. But someone who really loves it.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I feel like you're an aficionado never enough. I feel like the way that you are James is if you like something, you love something, and you research it.

[James Maddern]

I try to, yeah.

[Josh Adam Myers]

You are very well read, and I love that about you. And I love talking to you about music. You always have an opinion.

[Podcast Announcer]

I.

[Josh Adam Myers]

And I've told this before, so I'll make it very short, but just to give you the heads up, is that I grew up in a jazz household. I thought it was. And I'm part of my. I was gay. I was like, this is terrible. I don't like this music. I never really dug into it. And then at 20 years old, I'm DJing private parties around the district. And I was sick of all the records. Much like the way I started this podcast. I was like, I want to feel something. I need something different. We had our radio station, the Howard University wpfw, and they were doing a marathon fundraiser weekend, and it was all miles. All, like, the most popular jazz ever written was being played over Friday, Saturday, Sunday. And I was working all three days, and I listened to it, and then I went out and I bought, like, five Miles records, I think, and I just dug right in. And then, of course, you start going more into it, and you're like, oh, my God. Well, the lineup for Kind of Blue is. Is this guy, this guy, this guy, this guy. Let's with them.

[Podcast Announcer]

And.

[Josh Adam Myers]

And then my. Not senior year. Senior year, I did History of Rock and Roll. I think it was like, my junior year, I needed a credit, so I did History of Jazz.

[James Maddern]

That's fun.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Oh, it was amazing because I was already, like, into it at that point. You know, it's like six years later. And, dude, I'm much like you. If I get in, I obsess, you get in. And so, yeah, so I looked at Coltrane as, you know, as God. Like, he's like Jimmy Page to me. You know what I mean? Just, like, really just, you know, zucchini in his pants. Like, just the way he plays. He plays.

[James Maddern]

So zucchini in the pants, huh? Like Derek Smalls.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's a spinal time. He's universe. I mean, that's all universal. We all know it's. But the moral is, is that I looked at, like, if you're talking about the Mount Rushmore of jazz the way we talk about the Mount Rushmore comedy, I mean, you know, like, compare. Who would Coltrane be if, like, if our Mount Rushmore is, like, prior, you know, Eddie Murphy, Chappelle.

[James Maddern]

Well, they all move. See, I. There's. There's a couple that probably wouldn't be on Mine already. So there it is. That's the beauty of it. Sure, it seems like Coltrane would be up there, but, you know, the names that will be floated by many, I'm guessing is Charlie Parker. Yes, obviously.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Which, arguably, there's no. There's no culture without Parker.

[Podcast Announcer]

Yes.

[Josh Adam Myers]

So it all goes back to every guy before them, kind of teaching them and learning and jamming with them.

[James Maddern]

Yeah, Miles.

[Guest Comedian]

And then.

[James Maddern]

I don't know. I mean, it's the account. Yes, of course. Kenny G and just clone him four times is how everyone would do it. But.

[Guest Comedian]

But he's clearly in the discussion.

[James Maddern]

I'm guessing he would be on most people's. And it's crazy because we were talking about earlier, like, the musicians who rank him. I believe I've seen interviews and red interviews with Carlos Santana. I think he's a massive Coltrane fan. And you could see that with some of those solos he does. And it makes sense.

[Guest Comedian]

Isn't it nice that, like, you could be influenced by something that people don't realize that you love an artist and no one looks at your art, hears

[James Maddern]

your art and can see it initially, but then after you explain it to

[Guest Comedian]

them, they can maybe counter program or

[James Maddern]

whatever, break it down and find out. Oh, wait a minute.

[Guest Comedian]

Yes.

[James Maddern]

That's exciting to me. Like, you'd be shocked what your favorite musicians listen to.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Oh, that's one of my favorite things that Rolling Stone magazine does when I do read. It's one of the only few, you know, months that I will read the actual magazine is when it's like, artist on artist.

[James Maddern]

Sure.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Or it's like they write up something about it and you're always, like, shocked, or you like, who's inducting? Like, we were talking about Harry Belafonte. It's like, who's inducting somebody into the Rock and Roll hall of Fame? And I think it's so cool, like, when you see Nine Inch Nails, like, inducting the Cure because you kind of. You knew it already. But it's like, yeah, sure, you know, but sometimes it's like you said, sometimes it's that, like, I. The Chris Rock joke about him, how much he loves no Doubt and Gwed Stefani and Red Hot Chili Peppers. I never would have thought that, you know, And I think that's what's interesting about. About music is. And. And comedy, you know, is that no one would think that one of my favorite specials of all time is Paula Poundstone. Cats, Cops and stuff.

[Guest Comedian]

You never know.

[James Maddern]

You just never know what resonates with people.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah, but. So where did you find this then? Like, how did you. How did you find jazz?

[Guest Comedian]

Like, well, and I still. I mean, look, man, I am still a bit of a novice. Let's see. So actually, when I went to New Orleans the first time I went there, my then roommate, Anthony DeVito, was filming for Comedy Central. They were doing those half hours, and I went to support him. And Yamanika was there that week, too. Watched hers. It was wonderful.

[James Maddern]

God.

[Guest Comedian]

And I'm gonna be honest, as much as I wanna poke fun at my friend who's like, oh. Lyrics, when you hear about Frenchman street, like, oh, jazz, who cares? God. I just remember those couple days having the time of my life. And now that is more ragtime and Dixieland, which is the punk of jazz.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Is that true?

[Guest Comedian]

I've heard people describe that as more of the adventurous. And I. I'm sure there's plenty of people who poke holes in that theory. But, God, I left. Just fired up about it, and I just started listening more. I'd say, like, in high school or college, we do. We did spring break in Huntington beach, and there was that cool record shop. I'm sure it's demolished by now or something. Probably an Acai bowl place. A Playa bowl place.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah.

[Guest Comedian]

And for five bucks, you know, we're all broke. I probably went to spring, like, in California with 50 bucks, like a Numb nuts. But I got, on our last day there, Miles Davis Kind of Blue and Johnny Cash's Greatest Hits for, like, four bucks.

[James Maddern]

Two tapes.

[Guest Comedian]

And I just would listen to them over and over. And I'm young. There was a Here, I'm gonna bring back the word Flex. So you get into, like, grunge, you get into rock music, classic rock in the 90s, you discover punk, and then it kind of becomes. You become a searcher. Now, are you just trying to search to become a better person and find your soul, what you really like, or is it also kind of a punk rock? Well, I listen to Johnny Cash now. I mean, one person told me how cool Johnny Cash was, and I'm like, all right. And then I'm like, oh, Walk the Line. I heard Walk the Line in Reno on a outlaw state. There was an outlaw station in, like, 97 still. Like a pirate radio.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I love that.

[Guest Comedian]

This guy back with CD players, you know, the end of the 6 or the 10 disc, he would put in those 6 or 10, whatever he had, go to work and it would just go on shuffle and come back and change them. It was crazy. And I remember hearing Walk the Line. This guy with a very snobby music fan was into it. And then I've kept hearing about Miles Davis and the musicians liked him. And I mean, that riff, that kind of blues, mind blowing. Now it's taken me a long time to pick up any pace on it, but then you hear about Coltrane. I remember someone got me Coltranes Love supreme for a birthday and I would write to that. I would go to a coffee shop and you know, remember those days when I'd write and he put it on and if you allow, can take you somewhere. During the pandemic, when I was staying with Soul Joel's family, I did a lot of reading to only instrumentals and

[James Maddern]

do a lot of jazz.

[Guest Comedian]

I was trying to get into all that experimental jazz.

[James Maddern]

And then real quick, when I got

[Guest Comedian]

back from New Orleans, I just googled jazz documentary. And that's where I discovered that documentary we mentioned 1959. And that is such a great blueprint. Like I said, if those were the four albums and this would be the fifth, if it would have been in earlier that you start with. It's great gateways because they're all completely different aspects of jazz and could take you in a great place.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah. I was doing research about like why this record is so important and I found this thing where it's like, you know, most masterpieces perfect. Like almost an existing idea. Right. Where giant steps introduced an entirely new harmonic system. Do you know what I mean? Where the Beatles didn't invent melody, Hendrix didn't invent guitar. Jazz was not invented by Miles Davis, but Coltrane essentially invented a new set of roads musicians could travel.

[James Maddern]

And that would be what, referencing what? The circle of fists?

[Josh Adam Myers]

I mean. Yes. Like I. I think there's, you know, it's not just these unusual chord progressions. It's like. It's just a different way of almost organizing harmony. And. And to the fact that we're still talking, I mean, do we're still. We're saying. I mean, obviously you and I are not jazz experts or music critics. Where you are a little late, you lean a little slightly more into the critic, right?

[James Maddern]

Absolutely.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Where I lean into the head like that. That sounds good. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I'll go see. I'll go see Smash Mouth. You wouldn't.

[James Maddern]

No, I would not.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah, I would.

[James Maddern]

No, that's what I'm saying. Even if a really hot girl who's also has a great soul and I've wanted to be with forever, I don't know if I would Go to Smash Mouth with her for a first date off.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah, you.

[James Maddern]

I don't know if I would. Yes, you would. There's a girl in my head right now that I really like that we were supposed to hang out once or. TW just hasn't worked out. If she goes, let's go see Smash Mouth. Especially now without the real singer. I don't think that's going to happen.

[Josh Adam Myers]

It's like. It's like. It's like, I don't want to watch. I like that Matt Fulton joke about seeing Dirty Dancing two Havana nights. He goes, no Schwezy, no ways.

[James Maddern]

Yeah, that's. That's how I would feel. And also with him. No, thank you.

[Poet or Musician]

As well.

[James Maddern]

I mean, I wouldn't see them with their original singer. Now I'm gonna go see him with the. With the. The replacement. No, it's okay. I mean, but it's okay. Everyone's different.

[Josh Adam Myers]

It's all right to see the new singer. I want. I want Scott. It's not Stone Nimble Pilots. I want all those. I want all the. I don't just want the accoutrements. I want the fucking main dish.

[James Maddern]

Well, some of the zombie bands work, but, you know, and that's another thing. That's where I will get past some of my snobbery and go, okay. The Queen tried, failed with Paul Rogers Hit it out of the park with Adam Lambert yeah, yeah, yeah Hit it out of the park the Doors tried a million times Couldn't get it right oh, no well, now they never really went through with Iggy. It's a great chapter or two. And please kill me, Legs McNeil's wonderful oral history of punk. It's almost a bible of. Of music journalism, I would say, at this point.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Books. One of the books that I bought in a. On an Amazon spending day.

[James Maddern]

It's a spectacular.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I need to fill this figure.

[Poet or Musician]

It will.

[James Maddern]

It will be in print long after you and I are dead.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Question. Out of all those books that are up there, it's pretty good, right? I did good that I. That women could look at and go, oh. He's like.

[James Maddern]

And that's basically what it is, right?

[Josh Adam Myers]

That's all it is. Dude. I used to leave a book. I used to leave Beyond Good and Evil on my toilet. And that's great. In Baltimore, so girls would come over and think I'm having these, like, seriously deep, nihilistic, existential shits.

[James Maddern]

I went as a birthday party, a big one for a dear friend of ours, a female lady, and Condoleezza Rice boy, that's really gonna make sense with this book. I'm gonna say, I didn't know what to get her. She said no gifts. And it's. I had to. And I'm at this store, and it's like. I got. I'm like, it's. She's gothy, So I got pictures of Dorian Gray, and I'm discussing it. The guy. Oh, man, it's a great book. I'm like, I'm buying it as a gift. I hope she likes it. And then almost at the same time, we both were like, yeah, but either way, it looks really good on a bookcase. And it was one of those nice cover ones. Yeah, it looks good on a bookcase.

[Podcast Announcer]

Yeah.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I go softback because I can get more.

[James Maddern]

Yeah, I get it.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Can't afford those fucking hardbacks, dude. Yeah, you got that hardback money, bro.

[James Maddern]

I don't particularly like hard, but that's fun. But I feel like if you're giving a gift and if you have the option of a book like that.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Sure, sure. Yeah. But where were we?

[Guest Comedian]

We got lost.

[Josh Adam Myers]

We were talking about. We talk about why this is important. Why. No, like, nobody else could play the music. We're talking about his obsession. We could. I could also sit here, you know, if you want to. You know, because it's like, I feel like for some of the listers for. For our fleece army. You guys aren't really jazz fans, are you? Raise your hand. Let me see how many are out there.

[James Maddern]

That's a couple.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Okay. Mark, I see the teacher from Toronto. Okay. You know who's a jazz fan? The guy that wants to murder me. I'm kidding. He doesn't want to murder me. But.

[James Maddern]

Well, jazz wouldn't be the worst to murder someone, too, I'm guessing. Has anyone used jazz as a background in a movie of someone killing? Boy, we might have just come up with a plot of a horror movie.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I think, like, Spike Lee. I mean, Spike Lee is so heavily influenced by jazz. You know what I mean? And I mean, you hear it in every single one of his movies, even if the scene doesn't make sense. It's almost like he uses jazz the way that. That way that. The way that Scorsese uses Gimme Shelter quite a bit. He uses. It's like dude in Kundun in.

[James Maddern]

I just rewatched do the Right Thing after the Knicks one. That felt like the right thing.

[Josh Adam Myers]

And, dude, the biggest snub in Oscar history. Quite good fact that that didn't get nominated, and that year did not Win Best Picture. It was the best picture of the year.

[Guest Comedian]

But yes, Radio Raheem.

[James Maddern]

There's. I believe there's jazz music just wailing in the background.

[Guest Comedian]

It's perfect.

[James Maddern]

It's used. So.

[Guest Comedian]

Oh, it's a great soundtrack. Phenomenal movie. So this.

[Podcast Announcer]

Yeah.

[Guest Comedian]

This record. Why are they geek talking about it? And I will stand by it's. It is. Look, why do people not like jazz? What's the first thing they say? Masturbatory.

[James Maddern]

Right?

[Guest Comedian]

It's masturbatory.

[James Maddern]

Yeah, it's.

[Guest Comedian]

It is a. And as someone who's not a jazz musician and isn't the biggest jazz head, so forgive any of my ignorance more

[Josh Adam Myers]

than others, you know, stop taking away the fucking credit.

[Guest Comedian]

But I know real people and I was texting these people and shout out to the two Max's. Max Hamer and Max Kirkos, two brilliant musicians who are. Yeah, he's not on my Rolodex. But there is a bit of sport in one of the videos I was looking at while I was eating my breakfast at 2pm to get ready to come here. Is someone talking about almost comparing jazz as a sport. Is trying to be the greatest of all time. There is that dynamic in jazz that other music doesn't necessarily have. Hip hop, I guess has kind of had it where people are trying to be the best mc. That has happened. And DJ competitions as we bring up Mixmaster Mike and people just trying to do that better than someone else. But a lot of times you don't see that as much in music. Maybe you're trying to be the best singer, but you're just trying to express yourself through those lyrics. Or if you're a songwriter, you're trying to be the best songwriter. But this seems more of a direct thing. See what I just did with the melody and the chords in this. I did 26 chords in 16 bars. And at the same time as both these gentlemen brought up to me, there's only three key changes in the song. So a lot of people. This is so fascinating and this is why people keep talking about it. It's this flex that's incredibly difficult but yet viewed by some as it's a blues to some of my friends. Max Hammer basically said it's not that much different than a blues progression with the three chords. It's fascinating but yet gonna get to this. Was it Tommy Flanagan, the piano player who was not there at the initial session couldn't keep up with the recording of the title track because of those changes. Hey, improvise with this. What? And he changed the tempo. They practice it as a ballad. And he tried working it as a ballad, what, two months earlier, when he had a different band. People don't realize that he had a. The bass player was the same Paul Chambers. And then he got a different drummer and a different keyboard player.

[Josh Adam Myers]

So for. For the first. For the track we're talking about is Art Taylor for the. For Giant Steps. And he has Lex Humphreys playing on 89. Well, nice. Those are the. The ones that didn't make it to the record. And then.

[Guest Comedian]

Well, I had it. Was it a Cedar Se.

[Josh Adam Myers]

He had also Jimmy Cobb playing on piano. Oh, you're talking about piano. I thought you said drum.

[Guest Comedian]

Well, no, no, on piano. So they.

[Poet or Musician]

They.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Tommy Flanagan, uh, Winon Kelly and Cedar Walton.

[Guest Comedian]

Cedar Walton's who I got Cedar Walton. They worked it as more a ballad. But that original group of Walton and then the drummer for that, they weren't available. Two months later, they were on the road. Gotta make a living. And so he gets this new band and same bass player, I guess he rehearsed it with Flanagan as the ballad as he had tried working it two months earlier, and then counted him in quick with the tempo, and he couldn't keep up. It's on this, right? It's one of the greatest records of all time in jazz. It's. It's. What number is this on the Rolling Stone?

[Josh Adam Myers]

Oh, you. Why would you do that to me?

[James Maddern]

Edited in some other.

[Josh Adam Myers]

It's. Oh, here it's 103, which is an insane number.

[Guest Comedian]

This is a. I don't know how many jazz albums are left on this.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Kind of Blue sure is low. I could look, but.

[Guest Comedian]

But. So just think about that. And jazz aficionados can tell you that this great musician couldn't keep up and they left it in. And then years later. Do you know this? In 82, Flanagan records like a tribute to Coltrane. Like an album of Coltrane songs. He does this and he can improvise over the chord changes.

[Poet or Musician]

Wow.

[Guest Comedian]

That stuck in his crawl.

[Josh Adam Myers]

He needed that. He needed to show everybody. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Guest Comedian]

13, 14 years later.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah.

[Guest Comedian]

That He. Think about that and tell me that it's not about the flex with this album, this track, and why it's this. He. It lived in his head that people knew that he's falling behind the tempo. And that he had to prove later that he could improvise. I am as good as I say. Cause this is what this is. Jazz is more. I'm the right fielder who can throw you out from the fence. I Can do that. I can hit a three run home run whenever I want. Bo Jackson, it's like, yes, sir, it is that I can run from first to third on a single. I can dunk from the free throw line. It's athleticism. That's where it gets murky with people, where it just seems like people are jerking off to show you how good they are. It's great when you can be artistic and show your flex. And this is an example of that.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Do you think someone like Chappelle would be the comedic comparison?

[James Maddern]

Well, it's very interesting.

[Josh Adam Myers]

So he is also very heavily influenced by jazz.

[James Maddern]

Absolutely.

[Josh Adam Myers]

And it's. It's about the improvising. We watch him many, many times.

[James Maddern]

Twice last week.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah, I was there. I was there almost every night. Yeah.

[James Maddern]

The fortune to host a couple of those shows and what he's been doing since he's come back. Right. Okay. So I don't think this is offending anyone. I'm gonna. A dear friend of ours, legendary comic, has a comparison to him and I have my comparison to him. And I think if you merge them together, that's what you get with him. Attel says he's has compared him to Miles Davis. He's like, oh, he's. He's like in a different place now. He's like a Miles Davis. I look at him, I think he's almost like a Mark Twain, where he's not going to necessarily just be a laugh a minute. And he's sitting on a chair too. Right. Which is the image I have of Mark Twain on those riverboats or whatever.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Totally.

[James Maddern]

So to me, what Chappelle is now is somewhere in between Miles Davis and Mark Twain. You take our two analogies. I think that's perfect. To what you're saying. And then just one of funniest human beings of all time who can at any point sneak in some punchline or bring back a callback you forgot about that will have you losing your breath and going. And yes. Going, holy shit. So these callbacks, if people are familiar with Chappelle, you know the famous one that people cite, I think it was the first or the second Netflix special that he came back with the. I'll do a joke with the punchline backwards. Right. And then I kicked her the pussy.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah.

[James Maddern]

And then we forgot all about. He's done several of these and I. That night. I don't know how long you were there. I had to stay the whole time because I'm hosting. There is. And we're not gonna give anything away. God, he dropped one. That's clearly going to be, I think, the closer on the next special. And you go, you son of a bitch.

[Josh Adam Myers]

You did it again.

[James Maddern]

I totally forgot all about that seed you planted. That's a flex that is doing chord changes.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah.

[James Maddern]

That are in an astronomical time and a tempo that is. Oh, yeah, look at this. How good I am. I can do the joke backwards and you're going to forget that I set it up this way. That's how good I am. And that's why I think in a way, he is a Mark Twain and a Miles Davis at this point. Just doing a straight set to him. He's beyond that spiritually and also skill wise.

[Josh Adam Myers]

So I want to. I want to. I don't know if everybody knows the history. I was going to try to mention that. And I know we don't have a lot more time because you got to get out of here soon, but I. I love what you're saying. Everything we said is like, I think this is a perfect way to talk about a jazz record, especially because we had you on. We've asked questions before. So everybody knows this is. This is, you know, like John Coltrane, like to get to this record. He, you know, is in the Navy, learned bebop from Charlie Parker records, played with Dizzy Gillespie in the 50s.

[James Maddern]

Kind of emulated Parker.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah.

[James Maddern]

He says that when he was with Dizzy Gillespie, disbe it. It had to end because Dizzy was trying to teach him, you need to be who you are and not just sound like someone else. That's very important. But I think a lot of people in any art form kind of emulate one person initially. The key is to steal from everyone. I was having a discussion with someone else.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah, we're all from everyone.

[James Maddern]

You'll sound like you if you steal from one. You sound like them.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Exactly. I'm. I'm Otis Reding, Axel Rose and Scott

[Guest Comedian]

W. Put them all together.

[Josh Adam Myers]

And Wanda Sykes and. And I think.

[James Maddern]

And other art.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah.

[James Maddern]

When you throw the other art in, it makes your art even better. And like, oh, there's a little Jackson Pollock in me.

[Guest Comedian]

And.

[James Maddern]

And there's a little bit of a Gary Oldman in me. Yeah.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah.

[Guest Comedian]

So.

[Josh Adam Myers]

And so. And then I. That's probably why he got into heroin. I mean, also probably because he thinks Charlie. It made Charlie great and Charlie was able to do it. But I mean, some of those sessions. No, you can't say that. I mean, when he played with the orchestra, he still sounded amazing. When he's going through withdrawal, he joins. That's in the 50s just almost destroys his career. In 55 he joins Miles Davis's first great quintet. In 57, he gets, he gets fired by Miles.

[James Maddern]

Dude, he got sacked.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yep. But, but this is where he experiences and this is what I want to focus on to talk about this record. He experienced what he called the spiritual awakening. Weakening.

[James Maddern]

Yeah.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Now I feel like we've all, we've all done that, we've all had a moment in our lives where I mean, I don't know how to put it, but it's like you just, you're looking for answers and especially going through what he went through coming off of drugs, you know, getting sacked by Miles, you know, like we said, the bottom fell out. He was one of the most promising sax players in jazz, but he was struggling with heroin and alcohol. Miles Day, his first quintet, becomes addicted. He gets fired. Imagine it's like getting kicked out of the, the Beatles. You know what I mean? Being fired from the greatest collection of jazz musicians ever. I, I, I stick by that. I think that, I think the artists on Kind of Blue are hands down, every single one of them. And he called it, you know, Coltrane called it a period of time of suffering and confusion. And he locks himself in a room after being fired, goes back to Philly, decides to quit heroin and alcohol cold turkey. Probably the two hardest things at the quit at the same time, according to family members. Culture himself. Isolated himself in a room in his mom's house. The withdrawal was brutal. He prayed continuously and suffered intensely for days. And something happened though, that he would describe as a non medical but spiritual by the grace of God. It's on the liner notes of Love supreme he wrote during that year in 57, I experienced by the grace of God a spiritual waking which has led me to a richer, fuller and more productive life. And he really never spoke of it in any other way. Like he, he's, these words were so important because he wasn't a publicity guy. He was, he wasn't prone to any exaggeration. It was basically saying something changed me forever. Whether it was deeply religious, you know, because he didn't become devoted to any faith. But, you know, he says, I believe in all religions, you know, and now it's music. It's become a mission now.

[James Maddern]

Yeah, well, that becomes your religion.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yes. And so he's like, I want to be a force for real good. Not I want to be famous. He's like, I want to be a, I want to create. I want to create the best I can create. I want to be as. As, you know, make the most beautiful music I can make. It's not about, you know, I want to be rich. It's not about anything. It's literally like I'd give up everything just to play the sax and figure out how to make the noises come out of this that are in my head or whatever. And. And I think, you know, Giant Step represents the intellectual side of that search.

[James Maddern]

I always love, you know, what we're talking about. Meanings could be whatever you want a songs. Do you know what manic depression is?

[Josh Adam Myers]

My dad had it.

[James Maddern]

Yeah, well, we know Jimi Hendrix. I mean, we know the real one, Jimi Hendrix. He would say what it meant before. This is hilarious. That boy. I really should have put it in context. It's a guy, he's incredibly depressed and having these mood swings because he wants to make love to music the way he can to a woman. And it's a search for his whole life. And that's what Hendrix was trying to do his whole time. And that, to me, is what I thought of when you're describing, when you're reading Coltrane and that whole journey, what that is, in a sense, because that becomes your religion. You're just trying to do this thing you love so much the best, not just as a flex. Once again, if this is a drinking game, you're all hammered by now, by the time I say flex.

[Guest Comedian]

But it is a.

[James Maddern]

Because you feel like you have to.

[Guest Comedian]

Because it. You owe your life to it, because

[James Maddern]

your existence as is is because of it. That's the beauty with doing the research on the way down. And, you know, this was great. There was a cram session today, and it was beautiful. And I'm going to continue researching it after. And I'll probably hate everything I say because I'll know so much more after. But that's part of the journey too. Yes.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Put a pin in it, because originally I forget who was original. They dropped out. And then it was Greg Proops for a minute.

[Guest Comedian]

Oh, he would have been great.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I had you. But she had already asked Greg Proops. He was gonna do it, but then. Oh, then for a second it was Wayne Federman. So Wayne just like you, because you and Wayne are like my two guys.

[James Maddern]

He's great.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I need somebody. If Wayne doesn't do it, I'm going to you.

[James Maddern]

He's great.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Greg's house got broken into, so he.

[James Maddern]

He couldn't do it.

[Josh Adam Myers]

And so then I'm texting Wayne and we're actually. He did all this research too, so I'm curious because he's going to do Cream, I think. Or he's going to do Zombies or something. We have come out the two that we can't fill and he's like, can we still talk a little bit about Coltrane? I really crammed some information. But dude, I mean, have him reach

[James Maddern]

out to me if he has any issue. I'd love to pick. Pick each other's brains on it. I'd love to hear his thoughts on you. I'd like to talk to you come

[Josh Adam Myers]

off a Cream too.

[James Maddern]

I just like to. No, but I just like to talk to him about this. I don't. When I. I rarely see him. I don't really talk music and I should with him. I've talked comedy records. We've had some dude.

[Poet or Musician]

He's.

[Josh Adam Myers]

He's an. He's my. One of my.

[James Maddern]

He's awesome.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I love him. Is if I'd have him on every goddamn episode. I just love him.

[James Maddern]

He kicks ass.

[Josh Adam Myers]

But yeah, it's like, you know, when you start researching this, it really is one of the most interesting albums maybe that possibly is on this. I mean about the making about it and. And what it did for music and what it did for jazz and I

[James Maddern]

mean, like you said, dude, what it did for him. It took him to the next level. As I was discussing with the boys, with the Maxes and that. It seems like this is. He had gotten clean like you said. He felt that. What 57 was a turning point. But it was a rough year. He'd had a rough patch and he had to get off the pony and God to do Kind of Blue and then do your own record right after that. What an ascension. Think about that. He's on another guy's record that's one of the greatest records of all time. And then follows it with this go. He needed then to express himself and create these compositions for himself.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah.

[James Maddern]

And not just the flex. Not just look at how great I can play. I can express. I can write these songs and they mean something. Named what Three tracks after family members. Once again. The eye of the beholder. The ear of the Beholder. You just hear a riff. You just hear. And some solos. To me, I hear a family member. I hear a movie, I hear a score. And I hear something that moves me. And that's what he was putting out.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah. I'm trying to see if I can find other jazz musicians. Their reaction to listening to this record. See Tommy Flanagan. His reaction actually happened on a record itself. He's telling. Was already considered one of the best jobs he's actually handed in the chart. Oh, yeah. We already talked about this. Basically, Miles Davis thought Coltrane was obsessed. He saw him developing it in the 50s. But Miles is going in an opposite direction than he is, which thing is really rad. And joked. He joked about how he's practicing and endlessly. And the difference between them became almost philosophical where Miles said, why play all those notes? And Coltrane said, why not?

[James Maddern]

Why not?

[Poet or Musician]

Wow.

[Guest Comedian]

And.

[James Maddern]

And both work. Isn't that nice?

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah. It's like Carlin and Steven Wright arguing about joke density.

[Sponsor Voice]

Yeah.

[James Maddern]

But it's just like. So, you know, I got my electric guitar back that I. My.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Thank God, I love you. Were going crazy without.

[James Maddern]

Well, I enjoy it. My mom and stepdad neither with us anymore. It got me that Christmas of 98, 97. And Epiphone Les Paul Lovett. My aunt got it back. It's crazy. And so I'm playing again and I'm. It's really fun. And part of me is like, man, should I. I think I play like me and I. That's all you can ask for. But I'm like, do I gotta learn to play? Because I love Eddie Van Halen. You wouldn't. I mean, I love. I love Van Halen. It's one of my favorite bands. They're one of my favorite ever.

[Guest Comedian]

And I go, no.

[James Maddern]

But I play better, slower. Just the basic blue skin. It's. You have to be what you are.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah.

[James Maddern]

Eddie plays quick. If Eddie played slow, it'd probably still

[Josh Adam Myers]

be great because he's the best.

[James Maddern]

One of the top two ever. But, you know, he's better at that. Some people are meant to do that, and some are meant. You know, it's crazy. You can. Some people. We said Neil Young. Neil Young with one note, he couldn't shred. But a lot of those guys shredding can't play one note like Neil did. And that's what it is. Both have their place. You can have creme brulee and chocolate cake. You don't need to eat them together, but you can eat them at separate times. And they're both wonderful desserts.

[Josh Adam Myers]

And. And I think, like, listen to all the people out there that are. That are. If you've listened to the record already, you know, this. This might be. I would love to get. I'd love to get people's reactions from listening to this. This now and then listening to this when we're done with the podcast. Because after we've. Or listen, you know, if you want to skip ahead, listen to something like Kind of blue. Listen to those records we've talked about. Let's go back and listen to Sound of Jazz to come. You know, listen to all of that and. And listen to this once and then listen to this again. I mean, it. This wasn't. It wasn't. I remember getting it right away because I just thought Coltrane. The word Coltrane was so cool. Like, before I even knew anything, I was like, he's the man. I remember when I was buying dope in downtown la, it was like, yeah. I'm like Miles Culture. Yeah.

[Poet or Musician]

Yeah.

[James Maddern]

Well, that became the legend to them, unfortunately. Yes. Because of their trials of that.

[Josh Adam Myers]

But. But that's what I'm saying is that it's. It's one of those records that I was looking forward to. I'm so glad it was you, man. I'm so glad this worked out, because we got to get you out of here. I know you got to run to the.

[James Maddern]

I didn't think I had time. And also, I just wanted to make sure I could bring it on this.

[Josh Adam Myers]

You did. Oh, you brought.

[James Maddern]

Oh, I appreciate it was brought. Josh was texting me as I was finishing yoga at doing planks.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Who are you?

[James Maddern]

Well, you know, I have a blood cl, so I had to change how I work out. And so I'm still. I can do a little more cardio now, but I've had to change things.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah.

[James Maddern]

And so I'm in the middle of that, and it's like, all right, I could probably. Let's just do one more of these, and I'll get home, eat, I'll do my compression bands. I snuck that in.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Good, Good.

[James Maddern]

As I was telling Josh, I am such a lunatic, because all I have is my music. My music, and my religion is my comedy, and I want to do it correctly. So there's things I have to do. I have to drink tea to get my voice right. I have to read, I have to play guitar. So I got here in enough time to play a little bit of fart around on the electric that Josh has. So now I've got all my I's dotted and my T's crossed, so I can go do these show. These three shows tonight.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I'm so.

[James Maddern]

But it was like, all right, can I make this happen? I'm like, let's do it.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Well, I will see you.

[James Maddern]

I didn't think you had to get it up.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Oh, no, we had to. The next day, it was a pickle man. And this is the. That's the thing about this podcast, everybody, is that, like, we have these. We have a deadline. We can't skip a week. We haven't missed a week in eight. Right.

[James Maddern]

So why would you. So it's like, all right, I'll make it happen.

[Josh Adam Myers]

And I was like, I can't bump up the Lucas Haas episode.

[James Maddern]

And I also. Because I like that so far, the three I've done and we've talked about maybe doing another one down the line. We won't spoil it. We won't spoil it. They all have a theme. Like, it's. It's rebels doing what they felt they had to at that moment to service the art and who they are. And I feel pretentious saying it, but you know what? Part of this is that. And self indulgent. And so forgive me for that. But also jump out a window if you don't like it, because this is how I feel. This is part of it. You are creating something. Nebraska. I mean, all the fights that he had with that shape of jazz to come. I mean, people thought Ornette was out of his mind. And with this record, I mean, they thought he was out of his mind, but in a good way. But also, it's like, what are you doing with this? And I. I really. And then the other one. You will see the next time you'll hear my voice, apparently, unless there's another fallout last minute, you need me. But the next one is a mad scientist doing what he wanted to do.

[Josh Adam Myers]

And. And so here I want. Let's. Let's do the finals. Let's do the final questions. Yeah, we'll get you out of here. Because I think. I think you're.

[James Maddern]

You're holding a pee pee.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I know. We'll make it quick.

[Guest Comedian]

Can you see this?

[James Maddern]

Can you see the picture?

[Josh Adam Myers]

Well, luckily, I emptied right before you got here, because I just set this whole apartment up. All right, favorite song. What do you got of the record?

[James Maddern]

I actually live the final track, Mr. PC. That riff is just very. Right from the jump. It's kind of like. It feels like a jab coming. Like a bunch of jabs coming at you. I really like that one. And if you listen on Spotify, Spotify now no longer just goes to the algorithm to something else. It restarts the album. It's kind of fun to hear the album play in its entirety. And Mr. PC then goes in to the title track.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Oh, love that. I gotta go. Giant steps. It's just. It really is. It's a kick in the dick of just like, holy. Is there anything you skip over?

[James Maddern]

I don't look. I Don't look.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Be honest.

[James Maddern]

The ballad is not my favorite.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Really?

[James Maddern]

Yeah. You can enunciate her name better than me.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Naima.

[Guest Comedian]

Yes.

[James Maddern]

And I feel bad about that.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I spent more time with black people than James did, even though he's from Vegas.

[James Maddern]

Well, I just. I won't go that far.

[Josh Adam Myers]

But yes, we kind of mentioned already. Can you to.

[Guest Comedian]

It.

[Poet or Musician]

You.

[Josh Adam Myers]

To this record?

[James Maddern]

Well, I.

[Guest Comedian]

All right.

[James Maddern]

You might be right.

[Josh Adam Myers]

It's not a record, dude, I'm telling you. It's like there's. You can you. Dude, you can. It's. Remember the scene and it's like the

[James Maddern]

scene in Meditations is probably a better one too than this. But yes, you're probably.

[Josh Adam Myers]

But it's like the. Remember in. In. In Jerry Maguire, he's like, you gotta. Yeah, put this on. Put on like live at the Village Vanguard or whatever. And you're like, like, come on, dude. He tries to put it on the. He's like, what are we doing? It's like you got. You gotta to like. You know, you can't. Dude. Instrumental music. For sure. You can.

[James Maddern]

Excellent.

[Josh Adam Myers]

This is not that record. This is a. This is a. This is. All right, let me tell you. This is the equivalent of what the lead singer of Incubus said when I asked him if he could to Jeff Buckley Grace. He goes, I'm. I. I can't stop concentrating on his

[James Maddern]

voice and what he's saying too much.

[Josh Adam Myers]

And I think the sound of the tenor sax is so important. Certainly beautiful. And just.

[James Maddern]

That's great.

[Josh Adam Myers]

It's breaking into your. Your. Your ecosystem and it's like sex about being present. This is. There's too much going on.

[James Maddern]

That's fair.

[Josh Adam Myers]

What would be the final thoughts? How do you get somebody to listen to this record? Like, like how. How do you sum this record up for somebody that's never listened to it or anything you want to say before we leave? Because I think you're. You. If there's anybody, you're the dude to do it.

[James Maddern]

Well, I just sent a couple people who aren't familiar with this record. The Vox VOX has a wonderful, like 10 minute mini documentary about this. I think it was Earworm, that was a series they were doing on. On YouTube about what. What is the title of that? It's the song that Broke Jazz or something like that. Let me get the wording here. It's quite amazing and I think that's a great sell for it. The most feared song in jazz. I think you might have said that earlier. That's the selling point. Do you Want to hear the most feared song in jazz that people are intimidated to play, scared to play, but at the same time know that they have to challenge themselves to earn their weight, to earn their salt, their keep. Whatever it is, they have to learn it. And it scares them because it's a challenge. Because a mad scientist decided he needed to push himself spiritually and skill wise into this direction.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I do. Wow. You're literally reading my mind of what I wrote, which is just. I think if you're going to listen to this, it doesn't have to be something that you like, but you. You have to understand you're listening to a person that devoted themselves completely to something impossible.

[James Maddern]

And that's what it is.

[Josh Adam Myers]

And I think. I think when you say it, he didn't do this for fame. He didn't do this for money. He didn't do this because anyone asked. And he just wanted to see how far he could go. And I think this record belongs in the same bookshelf as Pet Sounds. What's Going On? Songs in the Key of Life, Abbey Road, Kid A. You know what I mean? I think Radiohead is. Is heavily influenced by these kind of guys. You say Bush, no push.

[James Maddern]

They push themselves.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Oh, yeah, Yeah. I thought you said Bush. I was like, Bush. Razor blade. Suitcase, please. But I think this is this. It doesn't deserve to be there because it sold the most. Not because everybody owns a copy of it, but because when people talk about the absolute limits of what human beings can create, I think that Giant Steps has to be part of that conversation.

[James Maddern]

And that's it. Keep pushing, everybody.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Promote away, buddy, please.

[James Maddern]

The James Manner on Instagram. That's it. Right now. I have nothing major right now. I'm gonna probably start getting back on the road a little bit. Had a bit of an injury. Still got it a bit. We'll get over it. I hadn't traveled in three months. I lived. I traveled to Detroit and two hours outside of it, I live. So we'll do some more.

[Josh Adam Myers]

First trip back.

[James Maddern]

That's the welcome back. I thought the blood clot would be gone. It was like.

[Josh Adam Myers]

No, it got worse, buddy.

[James Maddern]

It was something else. But it's fun. So, yeah, just do that. Come to shows that I'm in. I have a lot of fun.

[Josh Adam Myers]

If you're in New York and I'm

[James Maddern]

working clean now, I don't know if, you know, pg Ish. It's a real challenge.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Sure.

[James Maddern]

Because I had to do the cafe wall and they go work pg. I thought they were messing with me and it was all drunken bachelorette parties and it did it and felt good. And so I'm trying to push myself. It's sometimes we will slip and I

[Guest Comedian]

will be pragmatic and when the show

[James Maddern]

needs it, but it's like, oh, yeah, you know, I'm gonna try even at a late show, I'm gonna try not to curse because it push yourself to do this thing you love at a higher level.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I want to say this, boy, it

[James Maddern]

all tagged in together, didn't it?

[Josh Adam Myers]

100 full circle. And I want to say this. I'm glad everybody else didn't try. It didn't make it.

[Guest Comedian]

So thank you, sir.

[James Maddern]

This was great.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I really enjoyed this day. I had a good time talking to you. Go check him out. We'll promote him at the beginning, the end. And you will be hearing him again. Yeah, dude, you roll. We'll talk soon. All right.

[James Maddern]

Thanks, pop.

[Josh Adam Myers]

What did I tell you? When I tell you the one and only James matter and follow him on Instagram at the James Maddern and his website is jamesmaddern.com now for new music pick brought to you in part by distro kid, we have Endgame by Hillary Woods. You can find links to the music on our website the500podcast.com and if you were in a band or directly influenced by any of these albums or artists and you want your music featured on the 500 Songs of the Day or whatever the we're calling this since it's been going on for eight years, send your song to 500podcastgmail.com. Put an album and artist that influenced you in the subject line. Next week it's Cream, fresh cream from 1966. Dig it, Squig it. We'll see you guys then.

[Poet or Musician]

Sam, You. My end games in truth. Games of shame. I know that your heart hurts I know you must look away I know that you're worth thirst Though you choose to stay here Sam could never love you Never ever more than me weighing on my mind or heavy couldn't start me. And gaze. Gaze of shame. Take it to the hills of throw me down to the wall Wretched in the sand love in the last. Games of shame. Some talk, some drink deeply but with words I can't speak Silence calls you in me that I want to keep you Sam sa.

[Podcast Announcer]

The 500 keeping it flee see for the fleece nation on the 500 the 500.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Next chapter podcasts.