114 - Cream - Disraeli Gears - Stewart Copeland

Summary

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Podcast Summary:

The 500 with Josh Adam Meyers – Episode 114: Cream - Disraeli Gears with Stewart Copeland
Original Release Date: April 1, 2026
Podcast Host: Josh Adam Meyers
Guest: Stewart Copeland (drummer, composer, founding member of The Police)

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Episode Overview

In this highly anticipated episode, Josh Adam Meyers dives into Cream's iconic album Disraeli Gears (1967, #114 on Rolling Stone’s 500 Greatest Albums list) with legendary drummer Stewart Copeland of The Police. The conversation unpacks the explosive synergy and dysfunction that fueled both Cream and The Police—two of rock's greatest trios. Copeland shares unfiltered reflections on band dynamics, creative processes, musical evolution, and the unique chemistry and chaos inherent in making legendary records. The result is a drummer’s-eye view into not just Cream’s music, but also what it takes to keep (and sometimes destroy) a supergroup.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Stewart Copeland's Spoken Word Tour and Background

• Copeland discusses his upcoming North American "Hollywood and Other Adventures" spoken word tour (beginning June 3 in Fort Lauderdale).
• Remarks on touring small towns vs big cities:
  • “It’s much more exciting for them... in small towns... the vibe is better than London.” (08:06)
  • Tour reviews: “100% score. Never had any act or show... with such a clean sweep as far as the response.” (08:50)
• Copeland's persona described in reviews:
  • "Not a stodgy evening... it's more like your hyperactive mate with the best stories in the pub." (08:58)

2. Cream, Police, and Supergroup Dynamics

• Immediate connection between Cream and The Police as creative, high-conflict trios
  • “What happens when three geniuses refuse to compromise and just fight musically for 40 minutes.” – Josh (11:01)
• Copeland on creative tension and personalities:
  • “Those two summoner bitches, they tried to shut me down, extinguish my flame...and I’m so grateful.” (10:58)
• Both Cream and The Police had their “favorite, most fun recording” on their second albums, full of energy before things fell apart (12:20)
• Cream’s influence on Copeland’s drumming awareness as a teen (15:49–16:14)

3. Recording Techniques & Sound of Disraeli Gears

• Cream’s process: 11 songs in 3.5 days, very economical and tight arrangements (12:47)
• Technology limitations led to minimal overdubs, simple harmonies, and direct performances
  • “There’s a total of two guitars rather than stacked overdubs. Similarly, the vocals are very simple...” (13:08–15:25)
• Compared to contemporary albums, Disraeli Gears sounds “dull” sonically—focused, “thumpy” drums/toms but little sparkle (19:46)
• Producer Felix Pappalardi’s engineering: “Great bass player, but as a sound engineer, not so much...” (20:27)

4. Ginger Baker vs Stewart Copeland

• Copeland on Ginger: “The epitome of rock drumming... but Mitch Mitchell was the only one who actually used his jazz chops for the service of rock and roll.” (21:11)
• Copeland’s own approach: more precision, reggae influence, use of space vs. Ginger’s bombastic aggression (22:10–22:52)
• “It’s almost like Ginger plays like he’s trying to win a fight, and you play like you’ve already won it.” – Josh (22:21)
  • Copeland: “I’ll take it.” (22:52)
• Session anecdotes: drummers fighting for space against eager bandmates (23:01–24:11)

5. Space, Negative Space & Playing with Songwriters

• Reggae and Arabic music ingrained the idea of “negative space” for Copeland (24:24)
• “Other English bands had to learn it. They didn’t already instinctively feel it.” (24:24)
• On balancing fills and vocals: “The bridge, the last two beats... is where [the songwriter] picks up his line. And there’s a fucking drummer banging away...” (29:35)
• Police studio process: “I never heard the song until 20 minutes before recording. The drums... improvised right there on the spot.” (36:28–37:40)

6. Why Trios Are So Volatile

• Cream and The Police both had combustible chemistry, each member vying for lead status
  • “They invented the supergroup, but also invented how to destroy one.” – Josh (37:52)
• Trio dynamics: “Three pieces—it can be a Chinese democracy, there’s nowhere to hide...” (39:13)
• “If Cream sounds like they’re fighting in the music, you guys sound like you're fighting around it. Which is worse?” – Josh (39:48)
  • Copeland: “This record sounds absolutely... disciplined. Everybody contributing in a synchronized, supportive way.” (39:55–40:35)

7. Evolution: Psychedelic Blues, Partying & Maturity

• Cream’s rapid shift from straight blues (Fresh Cream) to psychedelic blues (Disraeli Gears): “Everybody was smoking hashish and doing acid and getting psychedelic.” (41:01)
• Comparisons between the party scenes: “Compared to other bands, we were like boy scouts... not in any obsessive way.” (41:09)
• “Sting was very abstemious... I was the drug abuser. I was the pot smoker of the band.” (41:54)

8. Band Breakups: Police and Cream

• Copeland reflects on the psychology of Sting vs. himself, and why supergroups don’t last:
  • “He would rather have done it on his own... even to this day the P word is not spoken in his presence.” (43:07–44:16)
  • Cream’s Goodbye album vs. The Police’s reunion tour: both a “cheerful” end, relief at finality (44:24–45:40)
  • On team spirit: “As long as they bring me along, I’m a happy guy...” (43:07–44:16)

9. Nerdy Drummer Talk & Fan Culture

• Copeland’s respect for other drummers: Josh Freese, Vinnie Colaiuta, “an agony aunt for all Sting’s session drummers.” (32:56–34:19)
• Deep dives into style: No one else played like Ginger Baker—unique, thumpy, no real imitators (35:11–35:49)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The only two people who should be granted a permit to use a fucking wah-wah pedal are [Eric Clapton and Jimi Hendrix].” – Stewart Copeland (16:42)
• “It's almost like Ginger plays like he's trying to win a fight, and you play like you've already won it.” – Josh (22:21)
• “There are no drummers who followed in [Ginger Baker’s] footsteps and did that tom-tommy style. He is utterly unique.” – Copeland (35:11)
• “If you like tom toms, check it out.” – Copeland’s summary for Disraeli Gears (58:41)
• On the indoctrination of musicianship: “If you ever have to say, Henrietta, it’s time for your piano practice, you’re wasting your time. If you have to say, Henrietta, will you shut up?, you got a musician.” (49:02–49:44)
• “As long as I’m on the team, I don’t have to be boss of the team.” (43:07)
• “We were not girl scouts. We partook of the entertainments of the day. But not in any obsessive way.” (41:26)

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Song-by-Song & Technical Analysis Highlights

• Album’s Economy & Discipline: Cream rehearsed and recorded rapidly, yielding tight, no-frills tracks distinguished by their relentless energy and minimalist layering—a contrast to later, more lush studio work (13:08–15:25).
• Strange Brew: “Great drum fill, dude. Dug it, dug it, dug it.” – Copeland (49:54)
• Sunshine of Your Love: Described as anthemic, heavy, iconic. Copeland chooses “Tales of Brave Ulysses” as his favorite (55:04).
• World of Pain: Initially unpopular with Josh, but grew on him; discussed as an example of Cream holding back amid emotional vulnerability (27:24)
• Album skips: Both agree Mother’s Lament (album closer) is a skip (55:24).

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Fun Segments & Light Moments

• Copeland jokes about selling “shit” (i.e., tickets, not cymbals) and promises to mail Josh his “worst cymbal” for his birthday—if they become “marginal friends.” (07:17)
• Yiddish lesson: “You got Spilkes!”—ants in your pants; Stewart learns new words and discusses stim/fidgeting habits (48:08)
• Shots at Neil Young for dominating college girlfriend playlists: “My punk ethos was a rebellion against Neil Young in particular.” (56:38)
• Copeland’s unlikely dream: “To be Joni Mitchell’s toyboy—I never even met her!” (57:36)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |------------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 06:09 | Copeland joins, reminisces about past encounters and plugs tour | | 10:58 | Discussing creative tension in trios: Cream vs. The Police | | 12:47 | Cream’s rapid recording process; the discipline and minimalism of Disraeli Gears | | 15:49 | Copeland’s first experience with Cream & era context | | 19:46 | Critique of Cream’s sound and production compared to Hendrix/Traffic | | 22:21 | Ginger Baker vs. Stewart Copeland as drummers; contrasting approaches | | 24:24 | The power of negative space; reggae/Afro-Arabic influences | | 29:35 | Drum fills vs. songwriting—band arguments over creative space | | 36:28 | How Police songs were recorded: “I never heard the song until...20 minutes before recording” | | 43:07 | Sting’s psychology, eldest child syndrome, and reluctance about The Police’s legacy | | 45:40 | The Police and Cream’s breakups; the bittersweet final tours | | 49:54 | Praise for ‘Strange Brew’ drum fill | | 55:04 | Copeland’s favorite Cream song: “Tales of Brave Ulysses;” both agree ‘Mother’s Lament’ is a skip | | 58:41 | Copeland’s summary pitch for Disraeli Gears: “If you like tom toms, check it out.” |

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Closing Takeaways

• Disraeli Gears remains a milestone of psychedelic blues rock, defined by disciplined chaos and the interplay of three musical mavericks.
• Cream and The Police share a legacy of creativity fueled by internal strife—the same flame that energizes the music often leads to a band's demise.
• For Copeland, band success is about knowing your strengths (space, restraint, attitude) and, sometimes, submitting to the musical moment—or the egos in the room.
• If you love powerful drums, guitar heroics, and raw group energy, Disraeli Gears is “where blues stops being polite and starts hallucinating.” (58:45)

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Final Thoughts/Quotes

• “If you like tom toms, check it out.” – Stewart Copeland (58:41)
• “This is the sound of a band discovering how far they can push music before it breaks—and it’s where blues stops being polite and starts hallucinating.” – Josh Adam Meyers (58:45)

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For full details and tour dates from Stewart Copeland, visit stewartcopeland.com or follow @stewartcopeland.

Next week on The 500: Joni Mitchell – Court and Spark (#113).

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Transcript

[Stuart Copeland]

Next chapter podcasts.

[Josh Adam Myers]

The 500. The 500. JM been walking us down through that 2012 edition, so it ain't nothing to you. Hundreds more to go. And in need of friend, the king of peaceful, angelo. Talking the 500 until the end Talking the 500 until the end with my man JM on the 500 Talking the 500 until the end I've been waiting so long to be where I'm going In the sunshine of your love. The song is Sunshine of My Love. It's by Cream. The true first supergroup, in my opinion. This from 67. The album is Disraeli Gears. It's number 114 out of 500 on the 500 with Josh, Adam Myers. And I am the only comedian going through Rolling Stone magazine's list of the 500 greatest albums from 500 down to 1. Yo, everybody. We're getting close to the bottom hundred, so I'm trying to do something cool here. We are going to relaunch the podcast. We're not making any changes, but I really want all my listeners to start telling people about the final hundred. However you can help us to promote this podcast. Please help us. We're relaunching at 100. I'm calling every favor. So we know that 500 was intimidating. And to Mark and fucking Michael and fucking Rich, my Canadian stallion, all you guys. I know I'm leaving people out. The moral story is this. We love you guys. We want more people. And I think that 500 might have been intimidating. So we're getting to the bottom hundred. Tell everybody. Yeah, 500's a lot. This is the bottom hundred. These are arguably the 100 greatest albums of all time. And we got 14 weeks. The promo machine's happening. Emily and I are connected. We're booking incredible guests. Dude. Some of the motherfuckers we have coming up is incredible. I mean, including today. Come on. But moral of the story is I'm really in love with this. I'm so excited to be working with you guys. So let's do this. And so tell everybody and let's make it count because we gotta beef our numbers up because we are broke. YouTube 500 podcast channel. Subscribe Patreon. To all the members that do subscribe. We love you. Patreon.com backslash the 500 podcast. Join the fleece army and come see me on the road. I built a recording studio in my apartment. I'm churning out songs. I really think you guys are going to enjoy this. We'll start playing them when they're done. But that's besides the point. Come see me on the road. April 6th, I'm at the Comedy Store with Bill Burr for Shimmy Shimiya. April 7th through the 11th. Rumors in Winnipeg. I better see you there. Rich, you fucking mook. Mark, teacher call out sick. Come. Moontower Comedy festival in Austin, April 15th through the 18th. Then I'm going to Coachella with my buddy from the Strokes. Not name dropping, but you know. And then Caesars, Atlantic City, The Hook Theater, April 23. And then I'll be at the Greek Theater May 8 in LA with Jelly Roll and Adam Ray and a bunch of friends. Mic Drop in Plano, Texas, May 15th through the 18th. Kimmel's in Vegas, May 22nd through the 23rd. Mike Drop Mania in Chandler, Arizona, June 12th through the 13th. And then Sacramento Punchline, the 18th through the 20th. And my cholesterol is 290. Thought that would be funny to throw that in there. The low, low density lipo protein 196. But I didn't fast before. I got the blood work done, so I'm getting it rechecked. I didn't tell the cardiologist that. They thought I was like, dude, you got butter blood. All tickets at Josh Adamyers.com, go to Punchup Live. Josh, Adam Myers and Osh Adamyers on all social media. Okay. All right, let's talk about it. Disraeli, Gears, a Technicolor fever dream from Cream. This is the guys. This is the guys. They sound like Melania Trump. Donald, do you want to make Fuck. They invented the supergroup so dysfunctional that they burned out almost immediately after this. And you can see why. Crank this shit up to 11, take some LSD and figure out what the concept of volume is. Because this blues is on ayahuasca. This is the birth of a psychedelic blues rock. You got Clapton's tone. You got everything you need. It's all right here. And the guest today. The guest today. You saw it. You saw who the fuck we got. I can't even talk. I'm choking up. The drummer for one of the best bands of the 80s 90s forever, Stuart Copeland. You heard what I said. Legendary drummer, composer, founding member of the Police, innovative genre bending style, helping redefine rock music in the late 20th century. He's heading out on his first North American spoken word tour to talk about his life and career in his usual, funny, intelligent, sharp way, celebrating an evening of conversation with photos, videos and a Q and A. Have I said too much? The Police, Hollywood and Other Adventures is set to visit 34 cities this summer, beginning Wednesday, June 3rd in Fort Lauderdale. For more of his music, tour dates and latest projects, visit stewart copeland.com and follow him at Stewart Underscore Copeland. And if I was you guys, I'd listen to some police. But after, of course, you listen to Cream Disraeli, Gears. Now for the normal spiel, rate, review, and most importantly, subscribe to the 500 listen free on all platforms. Leave us all a review. Everybody that's listening, leave a review. I don't give a fuck. Five stars. Leave a review. I'm Josh. Adam Myers on all social media. The podcast is at the 500 podcast. Email the [e-mail]. Follow the Facebook group run by Crazy Evan. And for all things 500, go to the website the 500podcast.com.

[Stuart Copeland]

All right, Bob.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Bop, bop, bop, bop, bop. Fleece Army. Nothing left to say, but here we go with number 114 out of 500 with cream Disraeli Gears. Oh, God. Could you have picked a better backdrop for sitting down for an interview with Stuart Copeland? Oh, my Lord. Ah, the rug. Ladies and gentlemen of our fleece army, this is. This is where Stuart Copeland is concocting all the gold, which, by the way, before we even get into anything, you and I have met before. We did a podcast with Ralph Sutton. We did the SDR show, the sex, drugs, and rock and roll show. It was on. It was online, just like this one. But I think it was pandemic era around either, I think the 21s.

[Stuart Copeland]

Okay.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Okay, great. I was like, Well, I was hoping you'd be like, oh, my God, Josh, I missed you so much.

[Stuart Copeland]

I spent so much of my time selling shit that I don't remember every piece of shit that I sold.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I love it. I just. I just like to believe that you're on ebay. Just like, all right, guys, I got this symbol. I played it in 10 bucks.

[Stuart Copeland]

No, that's not the kind of shit I sell tickets.

[Josh Adam Myers]

No, I know, I know. Before we even get symbols.

[Stuart Copeland]

You can't have my symbols. I got my symbols.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Can you listen, if this goes well and we become marginal friends, and I mean, just like a little bit of friends. For my birthday in November, can you randomly just send me and any symbol. I mean, anyone that could be one that you're like, this is a piece of shit. And then just sign it. You don't have to put your name. You can put them.

[Stuart Copeland]

I'll go find my worst symbol that I'll never use. Oh, it's all yours, baby. Because it'll, you know. You're not going to play it, are you? You can put it on your wall. Who cares what it sounds like?

[Josh Adam Myers]

It's going right there on my wall of fame where all my. I got to take all the shit that I've done and get it off there so people don't think I'm such a narcissist and like, put something up there with you. And they'll be like, ah, all right,

[Stuart Copeland]

somebody else up there. Yeah.

[Josh Adam Myers]

But tell me about the tour right now because before we get started, promote away. I mean, I saw the dates are coming up, like, how excited are you? Have you done any. Have you practiced? Are you nervous?

[Stuart Copeland]

Not nervous. I've done a lot of it actually. I did like an eight week tour of England and the concept is big name, small town and it's very interesting to be not being playing Manchester and Liverpool, but to be playing Lower east thropping in a theater there where the folks are just all lit up. It's much more exciting for them than it is when you play London where they see everything. So there's a vibe to these small towns that I really enjoy. And I get up there and I just start talking and it's gone really well. Not only does the room light up, the Reviews so far, 100% score. I've never had any act or show or record or product of any kind that has been such a clean sweep as far as the response, the critics and so on. I think my favorite comment was it's not a stodgy evening with. It's more like your anime, your. Your hyperactive mate, you know, with the best stories in the pub.

[Josh Adam Myers]

How deep are you going into the. You know, the, the details that people don't know because there's so much out there about you and the work that you've done. Is this for. Is this, this is. Is this for just anybody that just loves the police? Or is it. And they'll get. They'll get that or is this just. You're giving the full. Because I, I was shocked to found out you're a DMV boy. I had no idea you were from Alexandria, Virginia.

[Stuart Copeland]

There you go.

[Josh Adam Myers]

You grew up in my neck of the woods. I'm. I'm on the. I'm on the M side. I'm Montgomery county, so.

[Stuart Copeland]

Well, I didn't grow up there.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I know.

[Stuart Copeland]

But I left when I was 2 months old and went to Cairo, Egypt. But I'm proud to be from Virginia. God damn it.

[Josh Adam Myers]

You Take it. You're like, it's a great town. I wish I would have bought property when I was to be. Really. The gazillion dollars. I saw that you're coming to the Paramount, so I think I'm going to try to come out for that because.

[Stuart Copeland]

Yeah, come on up.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I would.

[Stuart Copeland]

It's a fun night. I mean, it gets as much of a response as when I'm banging stuff.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I. Dude, I bet. And what. You know, because I know we only have limited time with you. Well, before that. Where can they get tickets? Just make sure everybody knows. Let's do this up front.

[Stuart Copeland]

Do you.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Do you have the website? We'll promote it at the front. In the beginning, too.

[Stuart Copeland]

I have no idea.

[Josh Adam Myers]

StubHub, everybody. StubHub. You could do that. You only got to trade an arm, a leg, and a kidney. And you'll get seats all the way in the back.

[Stuart Copeland]

Yeah. Preferably money. I don't want your kidneys so much.

[Josh Adam Myers]

You don't think.

[Stuart Copeland]

No, I do the promo. Somebody else collects your money.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Perfect. Well, because we only have limited time and, dude, this is. This is like. We get guests on this. Stuart, where it's like, all right, this makes sense. And then we get, you know, where it's like the album and the artist or the comedian or the actor, whoever we. We sit down with, it just matches perfectly. But I mean, before I go any further. And I want you to know that this is a safe space. Okay? So I want you to know that nobody is going to tell you to play simpler. You can just. You can go as crazy as you want on this podcast today. And we are talking about. And I keep fucking up the title of this record. Well, go ahead. Do you have a thing?

[Stuart Copeland]

Well, you know, no one's going to ask me to play less. I would say about my erstwhile colleagues that those two summoner bitches, they tried to shut me down, extinguish my flame. You know, I spread my wings and they pull me down from the sky and limit me and everything like that. And I'm so grateful.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Oh, I mean, because the. That you guys did is some of the best music of the 80s. I mean, it's just. And the three of you together, I mean, it's.

[Stuart Copeland]

It could.

[Josh Adam Myers]

This could not be a perfect guess for a album that makes such sense because. Because we are talking about, you know, just. Just two trios that. That are two of the most influential bands in the history of music in different time periods. And this record, more than anything, it's like, basically what's what happens when three geniuses refused to compromise and just fight musically for 40 minutes. And I could not have thought of, like, good God. It's like, this is. This is something that. That. When my. When Emily told us that you were the guest, I was like, this is. God bless you, Emily. You are the perfect booker. So, I mean, does this album, like. Does this feel familiar, or were you guys way more emotionally healthy than Cream?

[Stuart Copeland]

We were probably about the same level of emotional unhealth. You know, that was. This was their second album.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah.

[Stuart Copeland]

And our second album also. I'm sure their atmosphere in the band was probably much better than it became later. As with. With the Police, our second album was our favorite, most fun recording when we were full of the mojo. That was just the most fun to record with Disraeli Gears. They. The Google machine tells me that they recorded in three and a half days, which is pretty stunning. How many songs are on that record?

[Josh Adam Myers]

Let me take a look at this. It is. You have. You have 11 songs from.

[Stuart Copeland]

Okay, 11 songs divided by three. What's that? You know, four songs a day is. And that's overdubs two. And interestingly, looking back at it in. In our day record recording guitar, standard procedure was you record the guitar track, then you double it.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah.

[Stuart Copeland]

And that fattens it up, it thickens it. But here in these recordings, there's no guitar doubling. There are two parts. There's the part they played with the band, and the arrangements are very tight. So they play the arrangements with all the little changes and all the stuff. They know the songs, they obviously rehearsed beforehand and got into the studio in New York City already knowing the song, which is also different from how we did it. We wouldn't know about the. We'd hear the song 10 minutes before recording the thing. So we were just improvising pretty much. But Cream recording Disraeli Gears, clearly knew the arrangements and knew what they were going to do. The guitar is not doubled. He plays the guitar that he played with the band when they laid down the track with the three of them. Then there's one guitar overdub. And so there's a total of two guitars rather than stacked guitar overdubs and doublings and triplings and everything. Similarly, the vocals are very simple. One voice each. Whenever there's a harmony, one guy sings one of it and the other guy sings the other of it. So it's very economically recorded and with no extra frills. Probably limited by the technology of the day, which didn't allow Them, they didn't have slave reels in those days. And for those of your listeners who wonder about that, one day after Cream, someone invented a technique to synchronize two multitrack tape machines. So now you record all your stuff on one of them, and the other machine has all your overdubs. Okay? It's full of guitars, 24 tracks of guitar. Okay, Take that reel off. And now you put the vocal reel on. Now you got 20. You've still got your original first machine with the basic band, but now you got the vocal slave reel, just full of vocals. And that became a nightmare. But in Cream days, I believe they would be working on a 16 track, maybe, maybe 24, but more likely eight or 16 tracks, which is why their recording technique was so economical. And guess what? Doesn't hurt at all. In fact, there's kind of a thrill, an X factor that you get from those. It's actually four instruments. Well, okay, five, six if you count the two singers. And that's it.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Very clean, Very clean, very clean. So this record came out in 67, and the first record came out in 66 with fresh cream, which I listened to, because I think we have that coming up. We've done Wheels of Fire already, maybe like a year or so ago, and we have Fresh Cream, I think, in a few. In a month. What record did you hear first? Because you're about 15 years old when this came out. So, you know, Fresh Cream. So. So what was that like hearing, you

[Stuart Copeland]

know, help me out here. Fresh Cream was before Hendrix, I believe.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Oh, man.

[Stuart Copeland]

And where does that. Where was the famous moment when Hendrix showed up in London and blew everyone's mind? Pete Townsend, Jeff Beck, Eric Clapton, they were all there and they all had their minds blown by this monster, this alien from another planet on the guitar. Was that. I think that was after Fresh Cream.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I'm checking right now. The Google machine says 9-24-66, accompanied by his new manager, Chaz Chandler, formerly of the Animals. So, yeah, so it would be on the night of his arrival, September 24, he sat in an impromptu jam session at the Scotch of St. James Club in Mason's Yard. I'm assuming, is that the one? Because this is his first official jam and it took place in October. But, yeah, the same.

[Stuart Copeland]

I thought it was speakeasy, but I'm not a historian.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I might be wrong. Anyway, this is the Google Machine telling

[Stuart Copeland]

us, dude, the reason we're bringing this up is who influenced whom? And certainly by the time of Disraeli, Gears, I mean, Eric's got his Wah Wah pedal going. Not as good at it as Hendrix. But the only two people who should be granted a permit to use a fucking Wawa pedal are those two guys, Eric and Jimmy. Because everyone else just. They wiggle their feet and it was a stupid thing, you know. Hendrix with his Wawa pedal damaged a lot of guitarists, you know, in the same way Billy Cobham damaged a lot of drummers who are overly. Including me, who were overly inspired by him to fuck up every cool riff. But that was a contribution to the Wawa pedal.

[Josh Adam Myers]

That's so funny. So what was that like hearing? I mean, when you first hear Fresh Cream, are you just completely blown away? I mean, are you already a blues fan? I'm assuming ahead of time, or. No, not at all.

[Stuart Copeland]

Up until that point, it was Beatles, Kinks and Stones.

[Josh Adam Myers]

That's it. And Animals maybe.

[Stuart Copeland]

Of course, the first time that musicianship came to the fore. Actual playing chops, I believe, was Cream and Hendrix were the first two where the actual playing, the Chops, as we call them, were out front of the song and Fresh Cream. And in fact, I would say that I prefer the Cream period of Eric Clapton, because during the Cream period of Eric Clapton, his songs, or the songs were in service of his cool guitar playing. When he left Cream and after Blind Faith, the guitar became in service of whatever he was singing about. And I don't care about his singing, I care about his guitar playing. And so I think the reason people. You know, he lost a few people there when he switched into being a singer who plays a guitar a bit, whereas previously he was a guitarist who could sing a bit.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah. Would you. Would you say this is your favorite era of Eric Clapton? Because.

[Stuart Copeland]

Oh, yeah.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah. I mean, and it's. It's. It's like really such a different thing, like you said. I'm glad you explained that perfectly because it is. Does sound different than anything we've done. Like, when we did Ocean, was it Ocean Avenue with my favorite song, Mainline Florida? I mean, it's just this. And it's so different than. And we just did Derek and the Dominoes too. I mean, this is boring. I mean, it's not boring.

[Stuart Copeland]

I mean, it songs. It is.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Well, it's all about Patty Boyd and Good God, can we put Patty Boyd in the Hot Chick group? Not groupie, the Hot Chick hall of Fame. Because there's been more songs written about that woman.

[Stuart Copeland]

Yes. Screw Patty Boyd. Screw the song. Play your damn guitar. You know, when I was young, by the way, now that I've Grown up. And I appreciate other aspects, music other than chops. You know, I've gone back a lot of bands I didn't pay much attention to, like Craft, Traffic and others that weren't about chops. They were just about really interesting, emotional music. But when I was a kid, I just wanted to hear more drums, more guitar blasting.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah, there's something about that. I mean, the drums and the guitar. I mean, everybody on this record is just almost playing perfectly, but.

[Stuart Copeland]

Well, one, one down. Thing I would say about this record is sound. Compared to Hendrix, for instance, which was all sparkly and bright, the Cream albums, all three of them, are a little dull. They, you know, the drums are thumping away, but they don't have much sparkle to them. The cymbals are kind of, you know, it's all about the tom toms, which is fine because he's playing a lot of tom toms, but it's all kind of a thumpy, muffled sound compared to Traffic or Jimi Hendrix.

[Josh Adam Myers]

So do you not think that Ginger Baker was the perfect drummer for this situation?

[Stuart Copeland]

Absolutely. Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just talking about the. The audio, I'm talking about.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Okay.

[Stuart Copeland]

Was it Felix Pappalardi or.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah, yeah, you're right. Felix Pappalardi was a producer on this

[Stuart Copeland]

who turned into a great bass player, but as a sound engineer, not so much. I don't think he. You know, it's. I like the drums because they're all thumpy and tom toms, but I wish they were a little brighter. Yeah. So the Cream records just don't cut with the same clarity as the other period albums of that period. Even though, as we were talking earlier, the playing is so sleek.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yes. Because it's. It's, like, when I listen to this record, it's. It's. It's the, you know, it's fuzzy, saturated guitars and, you know, these melodic bass lines and, like you said, jazzy but aggressive drumming. Do you. Did you. I mean, because I know you guys.

[Stuart Copeland]

Ginger Baker called himself a jazz drummer. Yes. Come on. Come on, Ginger. You know, dude, you're the epitome of rock drumming. Okay. On a side. You might go play with a big band or something, but, you know, they all say that. A lot of the old school drummers say, well, I'm jazz. You know, it's sort of like musicians say, I'm classically trained. You know, screw that. And. But Mitch Mitchell was the only one who actually used his jazz chops for the service of rock and roll. And it was fantastic. You Know, he had all that sparkle, all that flashmotronics that was very jazzy. But Ginger was a rock drummer.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Let me ask you a question, though, because I wanted. I was going to do this later in the podcast, but we're already talking about it, and I feel like before we go through any of the songs or anything, we talk about the history of it. I wanted to talk to you about the comparison between you and Ginger, because you guys are similar in many ways, but also, it's like the style.

[Stuart Copeland]

Really.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Well, no, but he's got the jazz chaos. It's like explosive. Well, I mean, it's explosive. It's confrontational.

[Stuart Copeland]

Yeah, yeah, but it's not in the jazz way.

[Josh Adam Myers]

So take the chaos. He doesn't.

[Stuart Copeland]

You know, he's no Philly Joe Jones.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Is that a real guy? Philly Joe, Joe. It's the greatest name I've ever heard in my life.

[Stuart Copeland]

Well, there's all kinds of jokes. There's Joe Jones, there's Philly Joe Jones. There's know lots of Joneses, Elvin Jones. But.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah, so. But I mean, he's playing over the band, and you are playing with more precision, with a reggae influence. You're using space, you're playing around the band. And, you know, it's almost like Ginger plays like he's trying to win a fight, and you play like you've already won it, you know? Would you say I like that?

[Stuart Copeland]

I. I'll take it. Yeah.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Thank you.

[Stuart Copeland]

But sure, fine. I'm okay with that.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Okay, good. Thank God. I. There's these moments. I wrote all these jokes.

[Stuart Copeland]

There's only one reason I won is because the other two guys were impatient and I was lazy. You know, we'd only, you know, we'd hear the song as long as it took for Sting to show Andy the chords. That's how long I got to figure out what I'm going to do and how the song goes. And we do one or two or three takes, and I'm going, but wait a minute, I didn't quite get it. And that's fine. It's fine, Stuart. It's fine. It's fine. Because they wanted to get on with the fun part, which is the overdubs. Sure. And so I go, okay, sure, fine. And I'm stuck with those recordings for the rest of my life. Yes, but they get to redo all the guitars and vocals.

[Josh Adam Myers]

But, but. But the drums are just. Your drums are perfect. I mean, I wanted to ask you. Is like, when did you realize.

[Stuart Copeland]

Well, I didn't have time to come up with anything more persnickety.

[Josh Adam Myers]

But they were great.

[Stuart Copeland]

And my buddies beat me up, you know, every time I tried, you know. And like I say, it's. It's. My current riff is that, you know, I'm. People give me a lot of credit for the taste, for the, you know, the streamlined quality of all that stuff. No, no, no, no. That was stinging. And Andy beating the shit out of me because if it weren't for them, I'd have been banging on every damn thing in sight. I love. So, like I say, they sought to clip my wings, for which I am very grateful.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I mean, because it. Because it comes out to be just perfect. But. But I wanted to ask you, when did you realize space was more powerful than filling everything in? Did you. Was it all through that or was it just is through reggae? Yeah.

[Stuart Copeland]

So immediately, reggae introduced the concept of negative space. That negative space, that hole they create. The way the bass and the rhythm works is it creates an expectation of a downbeat, and it's not there. So you're falling through space. And that negative space of reggae really got into my bloodstream, but actually it was already there in my DNA, because Arabic music, with which I grew up with, also is about that negative space. So that's always been my secret sauce. And, you know, it's in my DNA. And when other skinny white English bands attempted reggae, they would slavishly learn the parts and play them, but they had to learn it. They didn't already instinctively feel it. Yeah.

[Josh Adam Myers]

So if we. I'm going to do some song comparisons. You tell me if we're right, and please feel free to, like, you know, if I'm right, wrong, whatever, or explain. Like, if you're talking about, like, sunshine of your love versus Message in a bottle, I feel that's like weight versus momentum. Would you say that's pretty similar, or.

[Stuart Copeland]

Yeah, that's a good comment. Sunshine over Love is heavy.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah.

[Stuart Copeland]

It's about weight. It's about Tom Toms, you know, Neanderthal power. Whereas Message in a Bottle is forward motion for the floor.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah, yeah.

[Stuart Copeland]

And anything else is in service of that forward motion.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah. What about talking about leaving space? How about Walking on the moon versus Strange Brew? Whereas he's filling it and you are leaving it. Would you see that same thing? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dig it. And then Ulysses versus Driven to Tears, Trance versus tension is what I've got.

[Stuart Copeland]

Well, Ulysses had tension when the band kicks in. And what was it compared with what I did?

[Josh Adam Myers]

Driven to Tears once again, driven to

[Stuart Copeland]

tears is forward motion. It's much faster. It's pushing forward with a pounding kick on four. And Ulysses is slower and heavier.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Would you say there's any songs on this record where the choices that Ginger made you. And not knowing it, not knowing what Ginger did, you would have made the same exact decisions?

[Stuart Copeland]

I don't think I would have. Even though Ginger is also in my DNA. I mean, I memorized all their records, their live performances, everything. If those songs had been written 20 years later or whatever later, you know, if Andy and Sting had brought in those, those songs, Tales of Brave Ulysses and, you know, White Room and everything, I'm not sure what I would have done. You know, I, I, I don't know, because they're kind of slower and heavier, but I'm faster and brighter as a rule.

[Josh Adam Myers]

But, but then my question is, on a song like World of Pain, which has got this, like, dreamy Cornice. Cornice, whatever. The, A cornice is chorus and a vulnerable tone, and you got Bruce, who's leading emotionally, but you get. But they're holding back. I want to know when Sting got.

[Stuart Copeland]

Which, which, which song?

[Josh Adam Myers]

Track three. Track three, World of Pain.

[Stuart Copeland]

How's that go?

[Josh Adam Myers]

Adam, play me a little taste of it so it doesn't just come through my phone. Could you? Yeah. Outside my window.

[Stuart Copeland]

Okay, got it, got it, got it.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Take it off, take it off. So my question is, when Sting got vulnerable, did you pull back or push it?

[Stuart Copeland]

Depend on what he was doing. He could be pretty emotional while screaming at the top of his lungs. Sure. And yes, I, very much. I don't like. I, you know, I'm fond of denigrating the song, but actually, when it comes to him and his singing, I don't care. I don't know what he was singing about, but the rhythm, the melody, the power of his melodic sensibilities. Oh, I was completely tuned into that.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah. So when, when, when. So does subtle playing feel closer to composing?

[Stuart Copeland]

No. Playing and composing are almost unrelated activities. I am a composer of opera and symphonic works, and I am also a banger of shit. The two different aspects are almost unrelated. One, the drumming part is entirely visceral. There's no thought involved. It's just, you listen, you glom on to what you're hearing. You sink yourself into what you're hearing, what the other instruments are doing, and just the rhythm happens without thought. Composing is entirely cerebral, and you consider what each instrument should be doing, which is very different from being one of those instruments and doing whatever the fuck you want.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah. So when something like this and like in, like, Tales of Brave Ulysses, where you have this, like, wa. Pedal takeover and the lyrics are all mythical, and you have Clapton versus the vocals versus the drums, which is also almost the same thing as, like, Sunshine and My Love. How do you avoid competing with the singer? I mean, where they're doing. They're almost all competing with each other on this record. How did you avoid it?

[Stuart Copeland]

Did I. I mean.

[Josh Adam Myers]

You know. I mean. Well, did you?

[Stuart Copeland]

Well, actually, we had. One of our bones of contention was that for some reason I grew up where at the end of the verse, going into the chorus, or at the end of every four bar figure, there's a drum fill. And that's just sort of the way it works. It just sort of marks the timeout. The drum fill theoretically sets up the incoming event, be it a chorus or to take you down into the verse or whatever. And drummers just do that, you know? I wish it wasn't an instinct, but it is. However, for the songwriter's point of view, that bridge, the last two beats of the outgoing phrase, is where he picks up his line introducing the next event. And there's a fucking drummer banging away in his tom toms right there as his. His pickup, you know, and so that was a bone of contention.

[Josh Adam Myers]

So. So when you're doing something, he used

[Stuart Copeland]

to say, do a drum fill anywhere else but there.

[Josh Adam Myers]

What was the biggest argument you ever had between. Between the band and your fills or. Or like, just. Or drum parts or even just the whole thing, where it was like they. You know, where you guys were like. You knew that this was right. It felt right. Versus them being like, what are you doing? Like, blah, blah, blah.

[Stuart Copeland]

It was never specific. It was just an atmosphere of disapproval. Like I say, they were too lazy to do anything about it. No, no, no, no. I was too lazy. They were too impatient to get on with the fun part, which is their overdubs to do anything about whatever the hell I was coming up with. You know, the times when I needed to kill him most urgently.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Mm.

[Stuart Copeland]

Was then he would make a suggestion that was actually pretty darn good.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Really?

[Stuart Copeland]

Then, okay, I must throttle the life out of this man. When he was right.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Interesting.

[Stuart Copeland]

That's when I absolutely had to kill him.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Now, how many times does he write, though? A handful. Ten?

[Stuart Copeland]

Because, you know, everything overlaps. Sure. He may have suggested something, and I took that suggestion and did something else with it. Okay, Whose idea was it? You know, I never would have gone there if he hadn't suggested it, but once I got there, I did whatever I Did.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Do you remember the best?

[Stuart Copeland]

He didn't suggest that much. Okay. Because he was busy with his own stuff. Most of his suggestions was stop now.

[Josh Adam Myers]

But I mean, but like in a song like, like, you know, like. I don't know how you say this. Sw L A splar. Swabbler.

[Stuart Copeland]

Yeah.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Okay. Swabbler, which is like this explosive energy and it feels like everybody's pushing in it. How do you control that chaos live? Because you have so many songs where it's just pounding and it's like, you

[Stuart Copeland]

know, I was young. I play those same songs now with actually more power but less pounding.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Catch you question, because I've seen Sting, did a. Did a. A residency at a new theater in Brooklyn, the Brooklyn Paramount. He's playing with a new. New. A new guitarist, a new drummer. Have you seen any of it?

[Stuart Copeland]

Not Dominic.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I don't. I don't know who the two members were. I. I just. I can't forget.

[Stuart Copeland]

Dominic is the long suffering Dominic Miller.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Oh, really?

[Stuart Copeland]

He's been with him ever since the Police. You know, he was. I think he. He hooked up with Dominic and has been playing with Dominic ever since. Great guy, great guitarist. Good, good match.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Good as you guys. Have you spoke to the guys that's playing your parts? Is he playing them as close to you? No, I haven't talked to him, no. And do you. Have you?

[Stuart Copeland]

But I've talked to other Germans. I'm sort of like an agony amp for all Singh's session drummers. You know, Abe Laboro, Vinny Caliudo, Josh Freese. They all come to me with their grief. And in fact, I'm the one getting healed. The day that Vinny Caliudo told me, my God, he pulls. He's always pulling. And I go, what? What? I thought it was me pulling. They blamed me for being, you know, out of control, racing the tempo. But it was him all along. And that changed when Vinnie told me that that changed everything. What do you. So it wasn't all my fault because we did have some pretty exotic tempo variation.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Oh, my goodness. I mean, two guys that both. Vinnie hasn't done the podcast. He's a buddy. I'm friends with Bill Burr. I work with him quite a bit. He's a drummer. I actually asked him if he had any questions. He goes, don't ask him any drum questions. I'm like, but, dude, it's such a good album to like have these good. It's like, we got to. And he's like, dude, ask about what his three favorite cities are. Like, so cares about that.

[Stuart Copeland]

They want to care what I think about Ginger's Tom Tom Phil. Thank you, Bill. Love it. That's what I think about Ginger's Tom Tom Phil.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Josh Freeze is like, one of the coolest, you know, people.

[Stuart Copeland]

He is the coolest guy.

[Josh Adam Myers]

He.

[Stuart Copeland]

Of the modern young drummers.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Thank you.

[Stuart Copeland]

Oh, man, I'm gonna lose a bunch of friends here. But he is, for me, a guy.

[Josh Adam Myers]

He is. Dude, I.

[Stuart Copeland]

If I was going on tour, if I was making a record or something, I'd call Josh.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Oh, dude, he. Well, he did a Devo record. He invites me to his house in Long Beach. Like, I was just. He pulls out all the fucking helmets and he's showing me all the artwork. He's just such a cool.

[Stuart Copeland]

He's a fanboy, too.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Fanboy. And then I went to go see him, and this was so great about drummers, how they can change everything. And I think that's why Ginger is. And you were the perfect drummers for your bands because you see Josh play with Devo and you listen to the record and. And. And he adds. It turns into, like a rock and roll band with him playing the songs live and.

[Stuart Copeland]

Yeah, but they're not supposed to be a rock and roll band. Sure, be Devo.

[Josh Adam Myers]

They are Devo, but they're. They're Divo. With a little. Little warmth, with a little power.

[Stuart Copeland]

You got Josh banging away there. It's gonna have some punch.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I love it. I love.

[Stuart Copeland]

Wait, you know Ginger, really? You know, although I, you know, Mitch Mitchell was my number one guy, okay. But Ginger Baker is all alone. He is utterly unique. There are no drummers who followed in his footsteps and did that Tom Tommy style. There was none of his contemporaries. Nobody that he got it from. Nobody preceded him with that style. No. He landed with Cream with that thumpy Tom Tom style. No back, you know, often no backbeat. Just Tom Toms and Nobody. And he's all alone there. He's the only person who did that. And there's nobody else that comes close to the sound of Ginger Baker.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah.

[Stuart Copeland]

I mean, do you think is true of Mitch Mitchell, too? Sure.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Do you. Do you see the comparisons between the Police and Cream? Like. Or, like where. It's like the. Where Police were more controlled than Cream, but, like, under the surface.

[Stuart Copeland]

No, I don't think so.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Really.

[Stuart Copeland]

Disraeli Career in Disraeli Gears, Kareem are absolutely rehearsed, disciplined and slick.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Really. And you don't feel like you guys were that. It's because, I mean, I listen to your Records.

[Stuart Copeland]

Well, by the time we got on stage, we did a little rehearsing, I suppose. No, but all the Police recordings after the starting with a part of the second album, but third Zenyatta on down.

[Josh Adam Myers]

What are they?

[Stuart Copeland]

Zenyatta, Ghost the machine singer. Those three albums, I never heard the song until 20 minutes before recording. The drums that you're part of on your record.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Part of my language.

[Stuart Copeland]

So that's how disciplined we were.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Not part of my language to her, but fuck off.

[Stuart Copeland]

Really? Are you kidding me? Absolutely. All the guitars, all the vocals, those are honed over, overdubs, trying different sounds, different pickups, you know. How about the Les Paul? How about the Strat? You know, different. But no, they. They spent the rest of the time. But the drums went down first. That you had to do it that way in olden times. Nowadays you got to click. You can put the drums down at any stage. Then the drums had to go down. Like I said, they were impatient. It's fine, Stuart. But I just heard the song. I wasn't even sure where the chorus is. And he's not even singing the song properly. Yeah, because he's just playing the bass and he. He had to actually go home and figure out how to sing those songs with those up bass lines, you know, trying to sing.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah, give me.

[Stuart Copeland]

That's too big without you.

[Josh Adam Myers]

While.

[Stuart Copeland]

While playing that offbeat upside down and backwards bass line takes some practice. So when we were recording, he was just sort of not really singing the song. I didn't know, you know, I just learned the kind of. The chord changes in the riff. So we recorded it, you know, right from the hip. All those Police records are pretty much. The drums are improvised right there on the spot.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Okay, so when you talk about, like, why Cream imploded, because being like, fast, loud and edible and in inevitable, you know, we're. We're. It's like edible too. Yeah, inedible. Very edible. You've invented this. They invented the super group, but also invented how to destroy one. You know, you have. You have Jack Bruce versus Ginger Baker, which is actual war, not just creative tension. But they hated each other, which I thought.

[Stuart Copeland]

Which I didn't have patience for either of them.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Either of them. You have too many virtuosos and not enough compromise where you have everyone playing. Like I said earlier, they're playing. They're. They're playing like they're the lead instrument no one wants to support. You've got songs that are turning into ego.

[Stuart Copeland]

That's why they play into three piece. So they can Each do that?

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yes.

[Stuart Copeland]

Everybody's gotta fly, you know. Okay, maybe ZZ Top. It's all about the guitar and the bass and drums are just sort of meat and potatoes. And there are plenty of three piece bands that are, you know, one guy, you know, Hendrix was two guys. Although I really highly rate Noel Redding just for the. The subservient role that he played gains my respect. But in a three piece, generally everybody's working.

[Josh Adam Myers]

So why do trios always feel like a knife fight? Is it just mathematically impossible to get along?

[Stuart Copeland]

Well, it's a Chinese democracy, you know, there's nowhere to hide. You're stuck with the, you know, only two guys, you know, democratic decisions are more easily arrived at. Two against one. Sure, sure. So, you know, in a four piece band that could be more fractious because then you can have two parties. They're five piece band. Then you get. Then you get. Definitely get factions and it gets complicated. Three pieces actually. Very simple. Yeah.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I love that you're on the move right now for everybody. We're getting the full tour of the studio.

[Stuart Copeland]

This is Mobile Stewart walking around.

[Josh Adam Myers]

My question is, is like if Cream sounds like they're fighting in the music, you guys sound like you're fighting around it. What do you think is worse?

[Stuart Copeland]

I don't. They on this record here it sounds absolutely everybody in their place. It sounds very. You know what struck me? Going back and listening to the whole album.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah, tell me.

[Stuart Copeland]

You know, driving in my car, a track comes up and I love it. But to listen to the whole album all the way down, it struck me how disciplined it is. I didn't sound like a street fight at all. To me it sounded like everybody contributing in a very synchronized and mutually supportive way. I mean, everything is in place there. There's no extra frills, nothing competing. You know, it's. It seems very disciplined to me.

[Josh Adam Myers]

How do you feel like compared to the record Fresh Cream, which I listened to yesterday while I was at the gym and that was the first time.

[Stuart Copeland]

Well, they didn't. They hadn't quite got their handle on the material yet. Sure is a bit. A bit skimpy, but the playing was so cool. That's what makes up for it.

[Josh Adam Myers]

But there's. But this is basically the creation of. Of psychedelic blues. Like how do you feel about going on that kind of journey so quickly into their career and making such a shift where the first record, I mean does.

[Stuart Copeland]

Everybody was smoking hashish and doing acid and getting psychedelic.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah. Do you guys. Were you guys big partiers or you Know, I.

[Stuart Copeland]

Not really. We're kind of, you know, seeing some of the groups, you know, compared to other bands. We were like boy scouts, you know. You read the Led Zeppelin biography and fuck, you know, I guess by the time we came along, we had seen the pitfalls.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah.

[Stuart Copeland]

The hazards were more clearly signposted when we came along, so we didn't have the same casualty rate. We, you know, we were not girl scouts. We partook of the entertainments of the day. But not in any, you know, they. Not in any, you know, obsessive way.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah, I mean, there are no. No LSD experimentation ever in your life, or so would you guys do. All do it back

[Stuart Copeland]

in later years old Stingo, he. He got it, you know, into the high ayahuasca, you know. No, no common or garden, you know, banned drugs. For Stingo, strictly the, you know, licking frogs and ayahuasca, you know, the upper level psychedelics. But back in the day, he was very abstemious. Hardly even drank, really. Yeah, but in fact, both of them were. I was the. I was the drug abuser. I was the pot smoker of the band.

[Josh Adam Myers]

That's what you say. Pot is the drug. It's like now that's like taking aspirin, you know what I mean?

[Stuart Copeland]

Yeah. Really legal?

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah, 100%. So. So when you think about. Where was that question I just had? This is when you think about like. Like Clapton, you know, being kind of bored with the strict blues and wanting to expand. Did you see similarities with him going from the first record? And I mean, they're doing it earlier on where you guys did slightly change throughout the albums. But later in your career when you started to get into stuff like especially something like Synchronicity, you know, do you see the comparison between Clapton and Sting being just not. I don't want to. Not insulting the. The previous album. So please don't think I'm disengaged. Yeah. Thank you.

[Stuart Copeland]

Yeah, I could. I could see that they both had in common a disengagement from band identity. You know, me, I'm a younger sibling. I identify with my siblings, you know, just as long as I'm on the team, I don't have to be boss of the team as long as I'm on the team. You know, with my big brother, I was the youngest and as long as they bring me along, I'm a happy guy. Whereas Sting is an eldest, which. A certain amount of obsessive control goes with that sibling position. But he didn't say so at the time. But looking back. He would rather have done it on his own. And I think even to this day, the P word is not spoken in his presence, weirdly, because it is a reminder that he didn't get up on his pedestal by his own bootstraps. And he would have preferred to have had a clean career as Sting. You know, I'm talking. I'm, you know, psychology here. You know, the guy is a total mystery to me, who has known him for half a century.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Well, you know, to say we're talking about this, another famous three piece, so we can't go without saying. And the Cream knew that they were ending their band by calling their last album Goodbye, right?

[Stuart Copeland]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Josh Adam Myers]

And there seemed to be a similar feeling when, like, the Police broke up, but without the victory lap of your band career.

[Stuart Copeland]

Well, the reunion tour. The end of the reunion tour felt very much like Goodbye Cream.

[Josh Adam Myers]

But. But that was really cheerful.

[Stuart Copeland]

Yes, they look pretty cheerful on that album cover. Happy to be. Happy to see the end in sight. And we, you know, at the end of the reunion tour, after two years of it, we were counting down the hours that we would have to spend on stage with each other and with joy and love in our hearts, for sure. I mean, because at a certain point, you know, he got to the point, I don't fucking. I'll do my thing. Folks seem to like it. I don't care if There's World War 3 going behind my left shoulder, you know, on top of all my lyrics, I guess, you know, it is what it is. Why shout and scream about it? And I'm blasting away on my drums, you know, getting the occasional side eye of disapproval, but fuck it, you know, I love the man. He's a great musician. I. You know, the mantra. Every day, his mantra is just let Stewart be Stuart. And my mantra is just make Sting happy whatever the fuck he wants or doesn't want. Yeah, it never lasts.

[Josh Adam Myers]

The breaking of the arm for the rerecording of Don't Stand Close To Me, you know, that your fans got an updated one, but I believe it was, you know, recorded it. Yeah, it was recorded with a drum machine, for Christ's sake. You know what I mean? To lose the full force.

[Stuart Copeland]

And we fought over the. The snare drum sample.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah, it's just because. I mean, that's. Because that's what we love. We love your uniqueness. We love the. Your drumming is beloved. And. And then stage.

[Stuart Copeland]

I actually like that record, including. I like the drums on it, which were programmed on my Fairlight. I thought they were well programmed and kind of cool, actually.

[Josh Adam Myers]

But the world.

[Stuart Copeland]

It was not well received.

[Josh Adam Myers]

No, it was. I mean, the original is so great, but also, given how, like, Sting releases his first solo album, do you. So quickly. Do you ever think about what it would have sounded like if you and Andy had gotten a hold of that material? Like, does it. Does he. And he does cover a Police song to open the record with Shadows in the Rain, too.

[Stuart Copeland]

Which record is that?

[Josh Adam Myers]

His first. The first solo record, Blue Turtles, has

[Stuart Copeland]

shadows in the rain.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I'm almost positive. Yes. I think from the.

[Stuart Copeland]

I would be very surprised about that.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Motherfucker. I hope I got this right.

[Stuart Copeland]

I would say that maybe his live album might have started with that.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Okay, but either way. Either way, let's talk about the. You know, because maybe I fucked this up. But either way, when. When it comes to. Do you think. How do you. When. After listening to her first solo record, do you.

[Stuart Copeland]

I liked it. Yeah, I bought it. You know, there are things that I would have done instinctively different, but I was relieved to just listen to it because I'm a big fan, you know, I am still to this day susceptible to his melodic sensibilities, rhythmic sensibilities. I didn't think so at the time, but I discovered in more recent years that the man writes a hell of a clever lyric, too, but who cares? But so his records, you know, I like all of them, you know? You know, particularly the first one, Blue Turtles, was a great record.

[Josh Adam Myers]

It's such a great record. Yeah. You want to talk about some of the shots?

[Stuart Copeland]

By the way, his hit song of it I took personally. If you love somebody, set them free.

[Josh Adam Myers]

You're that. You're that. You're the person he loves and he set free. It's about you. It's such a. It's just so interesting, dude. It's just. I'm so happy that. That we got to get you on for this. This is just perfect, man. And I love that you're mobile right now. Do you do this every podcast or you just got to get your steps in?

[Stuart Copeland]

I can sit down for only so long before I got to start moving.

[Josh Adam Myers]

You got spilkers. You got, as the Yiddish say, you got some spilkers. Ants in your pants.

[Stuart Copeland]

Spielskas. That's a new one. You never heard Spilkes Spilkus? No, I've heard for cocktail. I've heard schmaltz. I've heard, you know, kveling. I've heard, you know, kvetching. That's a new one.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I'll have to use it, fit it in. Just be like, hey, you got. What do you got, Spilkus? You can't sit still.

[Stuart Copeland]

I guess so.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah. You got.

[Stuart Copeland]

You.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Me both got spilked because I'm moving my leg while you're doing the walk. If I could pick up my whole desk and walk around, I would.

[Stuart Copeland]

Well, I think some would call it stim, which is.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I've never heard stim. That's a new one for me. I'm using that one.

[Stuart Copeland]

Stim is the guy sitting there waggling his feet or tap, you know, with his knee. Bob.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Rubbing. Oh, yeah.

[Stuart Copeland]

It's stimulation.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Oh, okay. Right. Oh, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. I see that. But it's also just restless leg syndrome. And I have so much energy, I just need to get it out.

[Stuart Copeland]

Yeah.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Were you always. Did your parents put the drum set in front of you, or were you, like, just drawn to it? Because I feel like they were, like, this kid's hyperactive. They didn't even know what it was. Back in the day, my father put

[Stuart Copeland]

all kinds of music instruments in front of all of the children because he himself was a musician, a jazz musician, before he joined the. You know, before the war. And so the house was full of musical instruments which were broken and discarded by my older siblings until I came along and made noise on all of them. And, you know, there's a. An ad age that if you're a parent and you've got your kids taking piano lessons or whatever, and if you ever have to say, henrietta, I think it's time for your piano practice, you're wasting your time. If instead you find yourself saying, henrietta, will you shut up for just a minute?

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah.

[Stuart Copeland]

Okay. You got a musician in the family.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I love that. That was me. I'm the. I'm the musician. Let's talk about the two main songs on this record. I feel like we got to. We got to talk about Strange brew.

[Stuart Copeland]

Great drum fill, dude.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Originally, but I got.

[Stuart Copeland]

Dug it, dug it, dug it.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Blues track originally transformed into psychedelic pop. Strange brew. Kill what's inside of you. You know, besides the drums. Like, what do you love about this song? Or. Or is there anything. Do you feel like this was the perfect single to open to. For them to release to the public? Or should they have released Sunshine of your love? Because, I mean, sunshine of your love, which we'll get to in a second, is just. I mean, that's. That's up there.

[Stuart Copeland]

They were both. They were both hit singles. I'm not an A R man or a radio expert. So I. I don't. You know, I would probably have chosen the wrong track to be their first single.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Was. Was where the Police took simple ideas and made them feel massive. What's the secret to making something simple feel hypnotic instead of boring?

[Stuart Copeland]

X Factor in the playing, I guess.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Is it just. Is it the player or Police was not simple.

[Stuart Copeland]

Your message in a Bottle, for instance, is not simple.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Not at all.

[Stuart Copeland]

No. Very few of them are simple.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Would you. What would you say is your most complicated song where it's like you spent the most time futzing around with it?

[Stuart Copeland]

Every Breath youh Take really tried all kinds of different versions of that. What was some of the she does in magic? We tried 10 different versions of that. And the version on the record of every. Every Little Thing she does is Magic. We tried the punk version, we tried the reggae version. We tried this version, that version. But Sting had this demo that he had recorded himself. And the demo could have been released just like that would have been a hit, no problem. But everything we did to Police Ify, it took it away from being a hit. So finally one morning in a grump over caffeinated. Okay, Stinger, just play your fucking stupid demo. Then I'll play along with that. Just show me where the verse and the choruses are, damn it. And I'll play your stupid song and show you how it's not gonna work. But you know, just for you, you idiot. I'll do it.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah.

[Stuart Copeland]

So we record Every Little Thing she Does Is Magic with me. Fucking smoke coming out of my ears and stinks standing over me, pointing out where the chorus coming up and you know, the structure of the song. And both of us in high grump. That's the recording.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Oh, wow.

[Stuart Copeland]

One take.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I did that.

[Stuart Copeland]

Everything she Does Is Magic. It's.

[Josh Adam Myers]

It's. It's like with the two of us,

[Stuart Copeland]

you know, scowling at each other.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I love that because that reminds me of, you know, they couldn't get when Bruce Springsteen did Nebraska. And he did it on that, you know, in that room. And then they try to re record it. It's like. It's like, Nah, man, just. And you did. You know, when he. You must have known. He's like. You heard. You're like. We fussed around all these different ways. Like this is just. It was you. You didn't say it was settling it was. Or out of anger, like because you just wanted to stop with it. You were just.

[Stuart Copeland]

Well, like I said, the times when my mission to throttle the life out of the man became most Urgent when he was right.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I got two more questions for you. We'll get you out of here. Okay, before. Before we do our final questions, I want to say I wanted to ask you, being that I'm a huge Police fan, what was your. What was your swan song? What was your, like, perfect moment in the band where you were like, it can't get much better than this. I mean, you've had such a great career inside and out, too. And I'm sorry if I focus a little bit stuff on the Police. I. You know, I'm just. I'm such a huge fan of. You're playing with the. With them. What would be that moment that you were like, this is it. This is that this is the highest we can go. It's never going to get better than this, I think.

[Stuart Copeland]

Shea Stadium. Oh, wow. Because it's sort of like, symbolic of England conquering America again, even though I'm American, it was an English band, and it was just a great day. Joan Jett kicked ass. I forget who else was on the bill, but just every act came out and, you know, lit it up and took it higher. So by the time we came on stage, the 80,000 people were completely blazing, and we just took it from there. It was just the best show that we felt we played. And by the way, Sting played that with a broken rib.

[Josh Adam Myers]

No.

[Stuart Copeland]

And I would say Shea Stadium was our apotheosis.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Was it weird being in a brand with two British guys? They use slang that you didn't understand, and you're like, what are you guys now? They didn't.

[Stuart Copeland]

Yeah, I grew up in England. I went to English boarding school, and then I rodied for, you know, miles. Various miles. You know, I'm a glorified roadie, basically. I wrote it for Wishbone Ash.

[Josh Adam Myers]

No.

[Stuart Copeland]

Rose up the ranks, became a tour manager. So I knew every form of British slang, and I, you know, I was completely folded in.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I love it. I love it. All right, well, let's get you out of here, man. I appreciate you sticking around for a little extra time. We do these questions. We end every podcast with this. Please come back, dude. Please. I. Please get me a ticket for when you're playing at the Paramount. I would. I would be honored to not only watch you, but maybe be able to shake your hand and get a picture with you and my. My service animal, Lekka, because you don't take a picture with me. Just take a picture with my dog. I'd be the happiest guy in the world. All right, come on down. Oh, I'm there, brother. All right. We ask everybody these questions. I don't know if you want to pull the, out the, the track listings up, but what is your favorite song on this record?

[Stuart Copeland]

I. I haven't really got a favorite. Trails of brave Ulysses, I guess.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I mean, what a great song. I, I hate to say that mine is the, is the, is the, the big one, Sunshine of your Love, but I mean, it's, it really is a great record. And then on that note, the second question would be, is there anything you skip over? Is this a. Is this a no skip record or. There's nothing you skip.

[Stuart Copeland]

Oh, wait a minute. Is this the one that had a mother was washing her baby one night.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Let me take a look.

[Stuart Copeland]

It was only a moment, but oh, her baby is going down, baby. That's a, that's a skip over. Yeah, the end of the album. But it's a drag, though, because you. The last previous track finished, and you're thinking, ah, I'm in a beautiful. Then comes off.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Take It Back is such. They should have ended the record would take it back and you're like, what are you doing? It's like. But you know what's funny is I didn't like World of Pain at first, and then the more I listened to it, the more I really started digging it. So I, I agree with you. I do end the record right at Take it back and if I'm done, Mother's lament and why you got on there. All right.

[Stuart Copeland]

Can you.

[Josh Adam Myers]

To this record, can you put this album on and make coitus?

[Stuart Copeland]

No, I think this is a guy's record.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Interesting.

[Stuart Copeland]

If you're gonna get laid, you gotta play Crosby, Stills and Nash or Joni Mitchell, which I'm doing when I got to college. That's, you know, I've resented Neil Young ever since. All my sexual experiences were to the tune of Yellow Cowgirl in the sand. Mine's. Mine's look. In fact, it's ironic because, you know, my whole punk ethos was a rebellion against Neil Young in particular personally.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Him.

[Stuart Copeland]

That bastard with his fucking patches sewn on his jeans. You know, I was, you know, I was his market, you know, when I was in college in Southern California, every, every girl had to be listening to Neil Young or you're not going to get anywhere. And then years later, he's the punk rocker.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah, he really turned into one.

[Stuart Copeland]

He really did.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah. I, I My faith. I mean, look out, Joe, that song off of how it's not Rest never sleeps, but good God, like actually by

[Stuart Copeland]

the way, I did like Neil Young. I'm not. You know, this isn't a put down at all. It's just that I didn't take it as such.

[Josh Adam Myers]

No, I got it, dude. I dig it. But the Joni Mitchell we're actually doing on Thursday, so I get. People do.

[Stuart Copeland]

Oh no, I don't think I'm falling in love again. Oh my God. Yeah. I mean that. She is such a sophisticated musician. I mean the songs were beautiful. Her voice was beautiful. She. You know, I dreamt of. You know, I'm sharing a little personal thing here. I dreamt my daydream was to be Joni Mitchell's toy boy.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Oh, well, you still got.

[Stuart Copeland]

I never made it. I never even met her.

[Josh Adam Myers]

She's.

[Stuart Copeland]

She's still.

[Josh Adam Myers]

She's live and kicking, dude. And she.

[Stuart Copeland]

And I hear she loves drummers.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I mean, how could you not? How could you not?

[Stuart Copeland]

You guys are volatile, pretty sweaty and Neanderthal.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Sure, but that's the best songs were

[Stuart Copeland]

not sweaty and not Neanderthal.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Do you know. Do you know my. I did a couple tours with. With Queens of the Stone Age and you know John Theodore like played with Mars Volta. Like everybody in the band in Queens of the Stone Age is wearing suits. They look great. And John shows up wearing his cut off sleeves, shorts and some vans and he just murders it. So you guys have the best drums.

[Stuart Copeland]

Don't get to wear capes and sequins. No, we gotta wear teachers, you know, T shirt and, and short shorts.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Yeah, totally. That's. That's the outfit. All right, and then the final thing, getting you out of here. What would be your closing statements on. On getting someone to listen to this record? Like, how do you, how do you sum this up? How do you convince someone that's never heard Creamed, Israeli Dreams or Israeli Gears? I'm sorry to. To listen to this record.

[Stuart Copeland]

If you like Tom Toms, check it out.

[Josh Adam Myers]

I love that's been. That's. That's a drummer's take for goddamn sure. I would say it's. This isn't just an album if you're listening to this, you know, because if you've never heard of Cream, but it's the sound of a band discovering how far they can push music before it breaks. And it's where Blues stops being polite and starts hallucinating. And yeah, man, this is just such an honor to have you do this record, buddy. So thank you, brother, for coming out one more time, promote the tour just so we can get it out there again.

[Stuart Copeland]

No, that's your job.

[Josh Adam Myers]

All right, I'll do that. Don't worry. I'll promote the shit out of it.

[Stuart Copeland]

All right. Thanks, man.

[Josh Adam Myers]

What did I tell you? What did I tell you? The one and only Stuart Copeland. Follow him on Instagram at stewartcopeland and go to stuartcopeland.net for all things him and make sure you check out that tour starting June 3rd in Fort Lauderdale for have I said too Much? The Police, Hollywood and other adventures, 34 cities. Follow him and go to Stuart Copeland.com or I don't know, it's or try.comand.net I'm not changing this, but it's either one of those. All right, so we just listened to DISRAELI GEARS From 67 from Cream, our new music pick this week brought to you in part by Distrokid. There's a track called Sharon by Yellow Days and you can find links to the music on our website the500podcast.com and if you were in a music band or you're an artist and you want your song played on the song show 500 podcast gmail.com send it to us and put the album artists that influenced you in the the subject line next week it is a first time artist on the pod. Joni Mitchell Courtney Spark from 74 coming in at 1:13. It's a goodie. I can't wait to drop the pictures of the guest dude. It's a good episode. I mean this is a fucking phenomenal one. It's a good one. So tell your friends. Let's get the hundred final episodes. Make them big. Love you guys. I love each and every one of you guys for tuning in. Thank you guys.

[Stuart Copeland]

Sharon, won't you listen to me when it's a baron. It's all my thinking and drinking goes in Lots of friction and p

[Josh Adam Myers]

that

[Stuart Copeland]

there's a disco infra we could have a fun to have. Sharon I've been having in such a terrible time well Sharon, you bring such a sigh for my soul

[Josh Adam Myers]

it's all

[Stuart Copeland]

my thinking and drinking causing lots of friction again I don't know but there's

[Josh Adam Myers]

a disco if it's gone we support really good.

[Stuart Copeland]

Sharon. Thank you for taking the time to listen.

[Josh Adam Myers]

Do me lose my mind I know it's all my thinking causing lots of

[Stuart Copeland]

fiction again Whoa we're friends

[Josh Adam Myers]

and losing

[Stuart Copeland]

losing and losing again oh no. Losing and losing

[Josh Adam Myers]

over again. Oh man. No. The 500 keeping it flee see for the fleece nation on the 500 the 500. Quick break this surprised me. The most useful advice I get now doesn't come from experts. It comes from regular people on TikTok. What works, what doesn't. No filters. Download TikTok and see for yourself.

[Stuart Copeland]

Next chapter Podcast.