← The 500 with Josh Adam Meyers
The 500 with Josh Adam Meyers
174 - Bob Dylan - Desire - Dan Fogler
02:12:53
”A Complete Unknown” Actor Dan Fogler makes his debut on The 500 to discuss Dylan’s seventeenth album
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This show is brought to you by Distrokid. Bring your music to the masses.
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The 500 the 500 JM been walking us down through that 2012 edition, so it ain't nothing to you. Hundreds more to go and in need of a friend. The king of peace for angelo. Talking the 500 until the end Talking the 500 until the end with my man JM on the 500 Talking the.
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500 until the end. I saw them leaving, he says, and it stops. One of us had better call up the cops. And so Patty calls the cops and they arrive on the scene with their red lights flashing in a hot New Jersey night. Hurricane is by Bob Dylan from his 1976 record Desire. It's also number 174 out of 500 on the 500 with Josh Adam Myers My name is Josh, I'm a comic and I'm going through Rolling Stone magazine's list of the 500 Greatest Albums. You want to get through the ads and and then we'll we'll get to the pod. Yeah. Want to watch the podcast? I know you do. Episodes drop on our YouTube page every Thursday. Just search the 500 podcast channel and I have my own YouTube YouTube.com backslash Josh Adam79 so you can watch the full episodes on YouTube every Thursday or get it a day earlier if you sign up for our Patreon, which really does help us. And we got some good stuff in the Work with me, Morty and Wayne Fetty. Wap Fetterman. We're going to be starting to drop episodes every other week of us just talking about the records, music, and just. Just us hanging out, having a good time. You can get that on Patreon for $5. But if you really want to support the 500 and get some cool merch, $25 a month will get you everything. You get the fleece, you get the. I think it's a hoodie. You get a t shirt. Patreon.com backslash the 500 podcast. Join the Fleece Army. If you listen to the show, support the show. It really does help us. I am on tour. That's another way that you can support us. Guys, this weekend, I will be at Comics Roadhouse in Uncasville, Connecticut. I think That's Mohegan Sun. February 6th and the 7th. That's the Thursday and Friday. Not doing Saturday. Saturday, I'll be at the Stand and at the Comedy Cellar in New York. February 14th and the 15th, I will be at the Atlanta Punchline in Georgia. February 20th through the 23rd, I'll be in Reno, Nevada. Laugh Factory, Reno. And February 28th through March 1st, I'll be in Dallas, Texas, at the Dallas comedy club. Also February 16th and 17th, I'll be at the Comedy Store doing the jam and Shimmy. If you're out there, support Josh Adamyers.com for tickets Punchup. Live. Josh Adam Myers. Support me by following me if you don't already. Josh Adam Myers. On all social media. The podcast is at the 500 podcast. Yeah, there's a lot. There's a lot to go over every week, but it's worth it because we are a part of a journey. Join the journey. Down to the number one. May 28, 2028. We are almost there. Three years away, dude. Three. Holy. Dude. It's. It's. So what am I gonna do when I'm done? Who knows? Who knows? Take a week off. That's what I'm gonna do. I'll take one week off and then we're back. We're going back up. We're gonna go back up and just do new guests. Who knows? Okay, guys, what are we doing? It's Bob Dylan. It's our six, I think, on the podcast. You know me, this has been a weird thing for me because I'm starting at the older stuff and going down to the newer stuff.
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The.
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The stuff that's really important in it, and I'm not gonna give my critique on this record. I'm gonna get right into the guest. Ladies and gentlemen, a brilliant actor, the one and only Dan Fogler. He is in the new movie A Complete unknown. He is in the Fantastic Beasts movies for the Harry Potters. He's. He's a brilliant actor. Great guy. He was in London when we recorded this, and we were on a little bit of a delay, but really fun. This is why you do the podcast. You get to connect with incredible people and their love of music. We went through a lot. It's about two hours long. Don't skip any of it. Listen to it, share it, do everything you can. Raid, review, and most importantly, subscribe to the 500 and listen free on all platforms. Follow me at Josh Adam Myers on all social media and the podcast at the 500 Podcast. Email the podcast@500podcastmail.com to send us your music to tell us if you like it. Whatever you want to know, we'll answer it. Follow the Facebook group run by Crazy Evan. And for all things 500, go to the website the fiver podcast dot com. All right, y'all. Nothing left to say, but here we go with number 174 out of 500 with Bob Dylan Desire. From the valley below. From the valley below. That's all I got in my head for the last four days. Another cup of coffee for the road? Actually, I'll have a cold brew because I want to drink it faster from the valet. Oh, man, that makes me so happy.
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That makes me happy.
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That's my vibe, dude. I'm full. Ethel, you remember. Do you remember in. Do you remember in Airplane. Oh, my God, is it an airplane where they're like, he's in the hospital, and he's, like, going through what everybody has. And this guy has PTSD from this, and this person has ptsd. This guy thinks he's Ethel Merman. It's like, y'all be grand. Y'all be great, y'all. That. That. They're trying to hold her down and they put, like, a needle in her.
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Oh, my God. That's hilarious, dude.
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Because we're in it right now. This is it. This is the podcast we start. We start the second. Oh, you connect. You're in London right now, right?
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I am. I am. I am in.
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Hello.
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I am in jolly old London town. And the weather is holding up, so we're. We're doing this outside, so it's working. The mic's working.
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You sound great to me, man. You sound great to me. And. And you know what I love? If I lived in London I live.
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I live.
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Oh, no, we just. There you go. You're back. I live in New York City and, you know, I've lived here four and a half years. Well, four years, actually. And all I want is just a snow day. I want rain. I want to, like, listen, dude. Like, I want to listen to this record and it just be gray out and just like, absorb this. It's. It's like. So I, I. So I think. And that's also what I love about, about the British is that I feel like all of the music that I love, the Radio Heads and, and, you know, the, the Beatles and Coldplay and just so on and so forth down the line, it's all because of the weather in, in England and it's just that gray. Do you know what I mean? Like, the gray just covers them and it's like, it almost makes them melancholy and like, dig deeper because they're such, they're in such. Do you, do you feel that being out there, it keeps them inside, recording? Yeah. We got nothing to do. We can't go out and play soccer. Hold on. I got Ethel Merman. Don't go outside. It's all rainy and stuff. Are you working on something out there? What? Do you. I mean, or do you live out here out there?
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I mean, I live out in London. I live out here in London, but I'm working on a show in Ireland at the moment, so I'm back and forth. Dig in Ireland? Yeah, man. You ever been to Ireland?
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I've. I've been to England. I've never been to Ireland. I'm going to do a mini tour of, of, like, the UK and Europe. Me and not to name drop, but me, Jim Jeffries, Jimmy Carr and this guy, Steve Byrne, another American comic. We're going to see Oasis at Wembley. So, yeah, so we're, so we're gonna do a couple shows out there. I do the, I do the show where comedians do stand up and then they sing a cover. We're gonna set a jam up. But then me and my agent, because I've. Because of the podcast and just, you know, through clips and, and whatever I've done, I've got a nice little fan base out there, so I'm like, I'm excited. Yeah, but I've never done. I've never performed in anywhere other than, like, Mexico, Canada and, and America.
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So.
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Yeah. Are you. How long you been out there for? Ooch.
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I've been out here on and off steadily for. It's gonna be 10 years now because of. I did the fantastic Beast movies out here. And so we had three of those. So I was finding myself out here a lot, and then it just became home after a while. Like, my kids grew up here, and they were in school, so it was just like, all right, I guess we're. We're living here for a while because I grew. I grew up in Brooklyn. I always thought that I was gonna.
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I was gonna live in Brooklyn for.
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The rest of my life, you know, But. Yeah, it's weird how we're.
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I know. I get it. I'm looking over, like, you know, like, that. That you grew up in. Grew in. I mean, but it's. You went. You went to school in Boston, so you're an east coast guy, and.
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Yeah.
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You know, were you. Were you. I mean, I know you. You've done musical and stuff. I'm assuming you were always a very musical kid, right?
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Yeah, I love doing the school musical, and I was in bands and stuff, and I always love singing and, you know, making up songs and. Yeah, I always love music. Always have to have music playing, and it's just a big inspiration for, like, I can't. Like, I can't work out without music. You know, I can't do a lot of.
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You're like a crazy person. You're like. You see somebody. Dude, I sing when I work out, and I. Because everybody's got their headphones on, dude. At the gym, I'm telling you. And this is to all the fans out there. If you ever just want to rip, fart, and not give a. If anybody hears you. The gym. Everybody's listening to music. So you can just cut one. And I. And this woman. This woman yelled at me. She goes, you know, you got to stop singing. And I'm like, well, you need to be listening. Why aren't you listening to music? You should be listening to music on your head.
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Yeah. What's wrong? What's wrong with you?
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I'm not the crazy person. You're the crazy person.
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Exactly. Used to just be the airplane. It used to just be the airplane where you could just rip it, but now the gym. You can now.
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Concerts. Anything at a concert, dude. So. So. Because here's the thing. And this is. And I want to dive in to the record because.
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Okay, this is.
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This is such a meaty record. I don't know if I should say it now. I'm going to wait until we get to the thing, but, you know, I'm 45 years old. I, of course, knew about Dylan since a young age, but never found his Way into my life and listened to a record until I started doing the podcast. Like, when did you find Dylan?
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Okay, cool. Yeah, I found Dylan in my 20s. Like, right out of college. I was collecting music. I was collecting, you know, back then it was. You'd go to Tower Records or whatever, you get a bunch of CDs and shit.
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Oh, yeah.
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So I would. I. I found the box set of Jimi Hendrix at Monterey with him on the COVID with the guitar, with the fire and. And little. I didn't know that Monterey, that was Albert Gross. The part that I played in the Complete Unknown, that was Albert Grossman's festival. So he. So that was my little. I didn't realize it, but that was my first introduction to Albert. And so I'm watching. It was actually a dvd, you know. So I'm watching it, you know, live at Monterey. And he says, you know, he's singing. He's singing like a rolling Stone, Jimmy. And he says, you know, I'd like to sing a song by. By Bob Dylan. That's his grandma over there. And he points to his. I guess his bassist or his. His second guitar, and I guess he.
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Looks like Bob Dylan's grandma.
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I always thought that was really funny. I was like, jimmy, he's hysterical. And then. And then halfway through the song, he goes, yeah, man, I know I missed the verse. Don't worry about it. And then I was like, Like, I love this song. And I was like, ooh, what the. What is that verse? That. He missed it. So that's how I found Dylan. So I went to the source and I listened to Dylan's version and. And he kind of reversed the verses in it. And so that was my first introduction, that song, which is like, I love. I love Like a Rolling Stone. It's like such an anthem for. For artists, you know. And so that was my in. And then. And then, like, I guess, like a lot of people, I. I just saw how, like, how prolific Dylan was. Like, oh, my God, there's this. There's, like, so much to delve into. So I started with his earlier stuff and then I worked my way through it. And, Yeah, I mean, I still haven't listened to all of his music, you know, so much.
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He's.
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I was like. I was one of those Dylan lovers that, like, oh, I love that song and that song. And. But I wasn't like, like, oh, I gotta hear that album. Like, if I had to choose an album, I would say, I guess I, I. My favorite is Highway 61 Revisited, because it has a lot of songs that, you know, that has, like, a Rolling Stone on it, has all these other songs on it that I dig. But I was excited when you were like, oh, let's look at Desire. And I only knew a couple songs from it, and so I. I listened to it over and over, and I realized. I just realized, my God, so much of his music has seeped into a lot of the. The bands that I love today. And. And specifically. Specifically Jack. Jack White and the White Stripes. And, like. And he. I thought that was his song. One More cup of Coffee. I thought that was a Jack White song. I didn't know that.
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Really? Yeah.
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Yeah. And then. And I was. So then I'm listening to it. Dylan's version. I was like, jesus, this is. This is incredible. He has. He has influenced everyone. And so. Yeah, where you want to start, man? Where you want to start?
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So I've got my buddy. I got my buddy Morty, who I go over everything with, and we usually sit down and we talk for a couple hours about every record. You know, he's just a music encyclopedia. And I'll be completely honest with you. And. And this is the thing is, like I said, I was never a Dylan fan before this. I still am inching my way into being a fan of Dylan. We did this. Or let me say this. We did Dylan wrong on the podcast, because we started the first Dylan record I listened to, and the fans of the podcast are probably like, dude, you've said this all the time. But I feel like I have to explain it to my guests. Is that I. My first Bob Dylan record that I ever listened to was Time out of Mind, and it was because of the podcast, which is not the way you do Dylan. You start at the beginning. You have to know where he was to appreciate where he's going. You know what I mean? It would be like, are you a Radiat fan?
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Yeah, I like some songs already. Yeah, sure.
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Okay. So. All right. So. Yeah, but it would be like. It would be like listening to King of Limbs, their. Their most, like, avant garde out there record, you know, first and then being like, oh, now go back and listen to the Bends and listen to. To Creep. And so. So I've had a real hard time really getting into Dylan because every song off A Time out of Mind was eight minutes long, and it's about Jesus and death and the devil. Yeah. And so now we're starting to get into the thick of it. So to start out, like, we've done several Bob Dylan records. So to all the fans, you know, you can go and listen to those episodes for more biographical information. We don't have to go through all of his stuff because I, I really, you know, we've done so much. I think this is our sixth Dylan record we've done already.
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Wow. So.
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I know, I know. And, but this is now, dude. This is the thing. Until everybody else out there, you know, stop the podcast now and go out and see the film Complete Unknown, starring you. I mean, that must have been. As a fan, that must have been amazing to, like, work on a project like that.
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I'm, I'm. Yes. I'm part of an enormous ensemble of amazing actors.
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Yeah.
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And it's, uh, led by Tim.
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Okay. I shall have made. I can't.
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I can't. That's the only way I can say his name now is, like, Adam Sandler. But, yeah, it's, yeah. As if. Have you seen the movie you enjoyed?
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I have yet to see it. I. Dude, I'm, I've been traveling so much, but I'm, I think I'm gonna go see it tonight because once, once I become a, Once we do the episodes, I become, like, obsessed. And this record, this. I mean, dude, I'm gonna be honest. It was the first Bob Dylan record. On the first listen, I was like, I love this. I dug this record immediately.
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Yeah, it's pretty great. And, and, and, and Hurricane as the first song, like, that's a powerful song to begin the album. It gets, it gets you hooked. But I, Yeah, man, I, I. Doing a Complete Unknown. I mean, that's, that's a, that's a new caliber of film for me to be involved in, you know, that being surrounded by that caliber of talent. And Director Mangold, who I love, who did Walk the. Who was like, that's, that was my introduction to Johnny Cash. Like, oh, you know, so we, I was like, oh, my God, we are in good hands here. Yeah. And then, you know, there's Ed Norton, you know, and, and Boyd Holbrook, if you'd like Johnny Cash. He does an amazing Johnny Cash in the movie. And Monica Babaro, who is now nominated for Academy Awards, she. She's Joan Baez. She's fantastic in the film. Yeah, it's. People are digging it. The people are going back to see it over and over. I, I think, yes, it's. I, I, I was, I am just, you know, just so honored to be part of the film on so many levels.
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Yeah.
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Just, just to be, to play Albert Grossman.
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I know.
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Who was such an interesting character in the middle of of this moment of music history where he was surrounded by just so much talent like, like Dylan and Baez and, and all of the, the, like, like Hendrix and, and Joplin and like all of these people that were just popping up all over the place. And he, Albert, he saw an opportunity to just collect all these people and he was really inventing, you know, the, the managing business as he went along. He. So like Dylan, for instance, and it's all throughout the movie. Like Dylan would, would have a song and he'd take the song and, and be like, oh, let's give that to Peter, Paul and Mary and let's, let's have, you know, Joanie sing that a little bit. And before Dylan even had a chance to sing his own song and he was kind of like, he was you know, making like, like a chop shop out of it. He was chopping up songs and giving them out to everybody. And it was kind of brilliant because his point of view, I, I think was, well, if it's a hit song, then everyone's going to be singing it.
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Right?
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So you might as well have Malt singing to begin with. And, and it's, it worked because that's how I found Dylan. Through Jimi Hendrix, Jimmy singing. So it's like, okay, I, I understand that he was ahead of his time as far as, you know, the business went, but he, he made a lot of enemies and he broke a lot of rules and he was, you know, definitely taking 50 from Dylan. And so, yeah, he was. And he would say, yeah, well, you know, of course I was taking 50. I, I got you here and, and no one else kind of protection, you know, this kind of influence that, that I'm so, and, and so. And there's a lot of his philosophy out there. Like if you go look, look at documentaries, like, don't look back and like, there's so much footage out there of Albert, who is, who has become this like, infamous figure, where you see him wanting to not just be behind the scenes but wanting to have that recognition of. Yeah, no, I made, I helped make these people, you know, and he, so it was interesting to play that kind of character and, and I approached it almost in a, like, I, I leaned into the tall tale mythology which I love so much about Dylan. Like, Dylan is such a mysterious fellow. You know, he's making up his own past and then like admitting to maybe selling his soul, you know.
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Yeah. So everything he does is like with, with the record, people are like, you know, like, oh, well, what does that mean? Like he's doing this. But, like, he's wearing, like. What is he trying to say? It's all very, like, you know, he's. It's like there's. It's never just, like, cut and dry with him, where you're like, yeah, black and white. It's like, you have to, like, there's a mystery to him.
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Well, he said, yeah, absolutely. He. He reinvents himself. He, you know, he was. He was Robert Zimmerman, you know, from, you know, Minnesota. And, and he. And he changed his name. He changed his past. It's all. It's. It's all in the movie where he's telling his girlfriends, oh, yeah, I was in the circus. Yeah, I was. Yeah. And. And he talks about how you got to be part of the freak show. Like, you have to almost be, like, a freak that people can't take their eyes off of in order to make it in the business. And, and he. So I. He's like, creating this legend for himself right away, stepping off the bus in New York City. So I, I. I really looked at that aspect of him, and I thought, oh, I want to apply this to my character. Like, like, how. How am I connected to that? My. So Bob describes Albert as this, like, Sydney Green street character from. From the Maltese Falcon, if you've ever seen that movie.
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B
I have, yeah. Yeah.
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A
I know you're talking about Sidney Green Street. And so I try to embody that kind of like, he's from, like, the 40s. You know, he never got out of the 40s. The 1940s. And so I kind of draped that over the character. He's got this cigarette holder, and he's constantly in a cloud of smoke. And I thought, ooh, what if Albert was sent as an agent of chaos, you know, from the guy that. From the guy that Bob made that deal with, you know?
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B
Yeah, yeah.
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And Albert was sent as insurance to make sure that, you know, nudging Bob in the right direction. Yeah, go electric Bob. Yeah, yeah. You know, in the. In the guise of more butts and seats, but really just pushing him toward getting the full message out, you know, the public. And so that was really fun playing that. Like, I didn't really discuss that. I didn't discuss that with. With Mangold, because there wasn't really a big rehearsal process at all. We just got there. But I had all this in mind. I mean, that's just the tip of the iceberg. I, I thought, oh, yeah, I love this mythology aspect to, To Bob and, and. And maybe, you know, that's one of the. That's one of the tall tales, you know, maybe he's just going along with that mythology. Oh, yeah, yeah. Just like everybody else. I. I sold my soul at the crossroads or whatever, but I just find that so fascinating. And then here he is like a hundred years later and he's still here. And then it's just like, wait a minute. And then like you look at, you look at guys like Mick Jagger and you know, like people who are just continuing and non stop and like, wait, maybe they. Maybe they gotta pay their dues before they get out of here for some reason, you know, I mean, I love that kind of. I love that kind of conspiracy stuff.
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B
So, I mean, maybe I did. I could see. I could see the, you know, Mick Jagger making a deal like that. Like, he's 82 years old with more energy than Usain Bolt and he's up there. It's just like, I mean, dude, it's to see like Dylan, you know, I, I saw Dylan in I think 2006. And I mean, he stood there, he didn't even face the audience. He just was in the back actually, and just did his songs. They were on tour. He was. The openers were the Rack and tours. So I, I knew the tour manager, so I on. And I mean, I just wish at that time that I appreciated him. And I think, like, for everybody out there, because I'm gonna go see the movie tonight. I recommend everybody. Everybody's raving about it. I mean, but they don't really do that. I'm assuming they don't talk about this period in the movie, right? The Desire period.
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A
No, this is. The movie is based on the book Going Electric, which is, which is about just the short period of time between 1961 and 1965. So desire was 76. Like, that's, that's when I was. That's when I was born. But so this, this takes place just in that window where he rises to, you know, folk celebrity, the top of folk celebrity. And then he, right at the pinnacle of that, he says, actually, you know what?
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B
I'm.
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I'm gonna go electric. Yeah, with a complete. With like a rolling stone. And. And he does it at this festival, notoriously, and the. And the audience goes nuts. Half of them are booing him and the other half are like, yeah.
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B
That'S awesome, man. So that's so crazy. So, so then, so then, I mean, let's catch us up, let's catch the audience up of how we got to this record then I feel like the mythology and all there and like, I Said, go see the movie, watch a million documentaries. Let me see where I can pick this up. Okay, so this is 1970s, his prior record, Blood on the Tracks, considered his breakup record. And we will get into that a little more as we get through the songs. But that record was one of the highlights of Bob's career in a career that has some real highlights, you know, this is also one of his most collaborative records. He had previously worked with the band as his backing musicians. And in fact, in between Blood on the tracks in this record, the record company released the basement tapes, which we did on this show as well. However, that was not an official release. It was more of a stopgap, which featured the loose collaborative jammings that Dylan and the band did before the band released their monumentally influential records with him.
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Him.
- [32:17]
B
The thing about this record is I think about this podcast, if we've done so many records, and when I talk to Morty, my, my writer, he's constantly calling back this stuff that we've done. And Bob Dylan is one of those great hubs where, like you even said about, you know, the influences that you've heard, where there are so many connecting tissues to other things that we've done on this podcast. It's all just like an interweb where Dylan is just involved in so much of it. Like we've done Graham Parson records, so we've talked about Emmy Lou Harris, who is part of this record. We've also had Lenny. We've also had Lenny K. I don't know if you know, he is, but he was Patti Smith's guitarist and collaborator. And Bob Dylan was always watching what was going on around him and would often be inspired by movements. By movements, and would then show his interpretation of it in his projects. So he had seen Patti Smith Band prior to them putting out their first record. He was so intrigued by the interplay between the band. And remember that when we played with the band, although he had jammed with them and collaborated to a degree, they were doing Bob Dylan songs and fleshing them out on stage. And this was building from bottom up. In some cases, not only do other musicians and singers appear, but Bob actually co writes with his tour manager, Jacques Levy. Did I say that right? I think so. So 10 years prior, he had gotten in this terrible motorcycle accident which essentially sidelined his career, as well as putting into. Into him touring, putting in him touring for quite a while. So this is not just a return to form, but this is a return to the stage. And in the meantime, rock and roll has Gone through many phases. The Beatles stopped touring about the same time as Bob Dylan. But rock and roll exploded into the juggernaut that we know about in the mid-70s. The bands that are out there, Dan, are like Led Zeppelin, the who, the Stones. So you can imagine Dylan is watching these stadium tours and he's not just going up on stage to play his songs from 10 to 12 years earlier against that background. He wants to rock out. So he wants to put together the Rolling Thunder Review. And that was like a rock and roll circus that he took on the road. He really wanted a whole show. He wore makeup, he rocked out to his tunes and had other singers and bigger instrumentation. This record comes out in the middle of that tour. So this is happening while rock and roll, and let's face it, cocaine is the biggest thing that and also punk rock is being formed in New York. So this is Bob Dylan, who's over 10 years in the game and a pivotal character returning to form and reflecting on that energy. You know, thoughts on Blood on the Tracks, like, and, and, and, and kind of like the difference between that and this. Do you have anything?
- [35:22]
A
I think, yeah, I, I think that. Okay, so at the end of the movie, a complete unknown, he's. He's riding off. He's just basically set fire to his folk career. And he's just like, what I am right now, this is what I am. And so he's driving off on his motorcycle into the sunset. And I believe that he's about to get into his accident. And I think that's basically how I think the movie ends. And I think the accident is so important because it makes him stop and hunker down and slow down and really try to figure out, whoa, what is this train that I'm on? You know, I got this thing in motion and I've just been going and going and going and going and going and non stop writing and performing and. Okay, now God is just like, chill out.
- [36:24]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [36:25]
A
And so he hunkers down and during that time he finds out I'm. I'm coming from the Albert Grossman angle, where.
- [36:36]
B
Please take us there. Yeah.
- [36:38]
A
He finds out that Albert is, is stealing from him. He's is taking 50%. And so I think at that moment when he's forced. And then by 1970, he's gone separate ways with Albert. And I think that like songs like all along the Watchtower, which, which are like these, this epic, like cinematic song is. I think he's you to the industry, to the music industry, because he's the Joker. And I'm the thief in that. Albert Grossman is supposedly the thief in that. And that was Dylan's way of saying. Or trying to take some control back. Yeah. All along the Watchtower, the Joker and the Thief. So Albert was supposedly the thief in that. And that was. That was Dylan's way of saying, like, I know. I know what you did. I know what's going on. And. And I'm taking control of my career back here. And so I think that was a pivotal moment. And. And then all the music after that, I think that. Especially in the early 70s, I think that he was. You know what? Okay, here's this other thing about Dylan which is so fascinating to me.
- [38:18]
B
What's that?
- [38:19]
A
Where he. He keeps. He doesn't know who he is. He just keeps reinventing himself. Like. Like, you. You do the research. And when he had bands in high school and, you know, whatever, he was a rock and roll guy. Like, he freaking loved Elvis. And, like.
- [38:38]
B
Yeah.
- [38:38]
A
And just decides, oh, you know what? And this is after he goes to the crossroads, apparently. He just decides, you know what? I think I could get pretty far doing this folk thing. And it's got, you know, this. There's. It's. It's deeper. It's deeper music, you know, And. And I like that. And. And so. So then he becomes the King of Folk. And everyone's like, okay. He's there telling him, okay, that's. That's. That's who you are, man. You can't be anybody else. And then he says, no, I'm actually. I'm all sorts of different sounds. And. And then he does all. He does so many different sounds, and he doesn't sing a song the same way twice.
- [39:27]
B
And it really doesn't.
- [39:29]
A
And he. He still. I think he's done that so much that he doesn't know what his sound is. Like, I don't think he ever knew exactly. He's like this, like, chameleon that's just constantly changing and changing and changing, but he never really had an original sound. And so fast forward to have you seen. I find this so fucking fascinating. The greatest night in pop. The. About.
- [39:59]
B
Yeah. My favorite thing was when Merle Haggard, when they tried to get him saying, when Stevie Wonder's like, yeah, you should. Yeah, we should do like, a. Like an African, like, Kenyan thing. And Merle Haggard's like, I'm out of here, man. He's like, yeah, dude, I. I ain't doing that. He just takes off.
- [40:16]
A
Cowboys don't sing that.
- [40:17]
B
He's like, yeah, I don't know what you talk about there, man.
- [40:21]
A
I. My favorite part of. Of that documentary is watching Bob Dylan in the headlights for the first. For the first half of it. Not even singing. Just kind of like, he's. He's in his head, just like, man, what am I? What am I? What is. What is my sound? Who am I right now? Right.
- [40:44]
B
Yeah.
- [40:44]
A
And I'm. And just as. Oh, hey, honey, I got it. We have a puppy, so we're bringing the puppy.
- [40:50]
B
All right.
- [40:52]
A
You don't. Don't mind the puppy, but. Yeah.
- [40:57]
B
What kind did you get?
- [40:59]
A
We got a Cavalpoo, and she likes to poo. She definitely likes the poo.
- [41:04]
B
Well, it's a puppy, so. But it's a big dog or small dog. Luckily, with puppies, the poops are really small because the dog is small. I have an. I have an 80 pound Doberman pinscher. So, yeah, let me see the dog. A British dog.
- [41:22]
A
She is a King Charles cavalier. Come here, sweetie. You want that?
- [41:27]
B
Oh, what a blessing.
- [41:29]
A
Here you go, sweetie. Come here.
- [41:34]
B
Oh, my gosh, she's.
- [41:37]
A
Look at this little puppy.
- [41:39]
B
Let me see. Pulled her up. Oh. Oh, yeah, dude. Oh, yeah. Oh, it's got that smell. Oh, it's the best puppy smell.
- [41:48]
A
She's eating my course. Okay, let's go.
- [41:50]
B
Yeah. If I could recommend anything. If I could recommend anything. If you work for the next year and a half and train that dog for the next year and a half, you will. Dude. It's. It was the most. I mean, I, I. When I got my Doberman, I wanted to show everybody how put together my life was. So I hired a woman. I hired a woman. I. I did everything she said. My dog, she's a real service animal. I take her. I take her. I trav every weekend, I bring her everywhere. I can take the dog into any situation and. And nobody complains. No one's ever questioned that it's a service animal. Like, so, so train, train. Even big or small, you train that dog, it'll be the best relationship you've ever had. Have you had dogs before? This is yours. Have you had a dog before? Like, you. You never had a dog growing up?
- [42:44]
A
No, never.
- [42:44]
B
Really.
- [42:45]
A
Never had. I always wanted one. And I'm really good with dogs, like, other people's dogs. But this is my. My daughters were like, you know, we want. We. We want a puppy. So I was like, all right, let's do it. And. And it's, like, really fulfilling this need from when I was a kid. Like, I was like, oh, my God. I get to have a puppy. And so it's really. It's really sweet. It's a lot of work, but, yeah, it's like having work. It's like. It's like having a bit. It's like having a baby, but the baby is able to run 100 miles an hour.
- [43:15]
B
Exactly. Yeah. And the baby will chew on cords and. And just, like, you, like, look at it and you're like, just say something. Just let me know, like, am I doing a good job? Are you cool or, you know, why. Why are you acting weird? Get insurance. Get insurance on the dog. Dude, get insurance. It was the best thing I've ever done. Nine. I have. I do one where it's like 90 of everything's covered, and, dude, you're gonna be fine. You got a good.
- [43:43]
A
You're.
- [43:43]
B
You're in a good place. I think also, it's.
- [43:46]
A
It's.
- [43:46]
B
You're gonna kill it.
- [43:48]
A
Thanks, man. Yeah, we're doing okay over here.
- [43:51]
B
Let's.
- [43:51]
A
Let's.
- [43:52]
B
Yeah, let's.
- [43:53]
A
Let's.
- [43:53]
B
Let's try to dive into some of the songs or unless you have something else you want to add. You seem like.
- [43:59]
A
Well, we were talking about that. I love that moment in. In the Greatest. See you, sweetie. The Greatest Night of Pop, where he's just. To finish that thought that he's trying to. He. He gets to the part where, like, okay, man, you and the boss are gonna riff on this one part. And he gets up to the mic and he's like, doesn't. He's not sure what to do. And I just. I'm like, oh, my God. Everyone here is looking up to you, pal. Yeah.
- [44:29]
B
Yeah.
- [44:30]
A
Like what? And then. And then this. This, like, moment, which I love, where Stevie wonders, like, come over here, man. Let's work it out. And he's like, yeah, let me work it out with Stevie. And then Stevie starts doing a Dylan impression.
- [44:43]
B
Yeah, I know. He kind of like, teaches him how he wants him to do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He has him. He. Yeah, what?
- [44:51]
A
And then you see Bob smile, like, yeah, okay, I get it. And then he. Then he kills it singing Stevie's version of Bob. You know, whatever. I'm just like, like, what? Who is this man? Who is this guy? Who is he? Does he know? It's fascinating. I'm sorry.
- [45:10]
B
No, no, dude, I, I. Dude, I completely understand it. And I think that's. That is why we're. That's why he's got all these records on here. That's why I. When I. When I went to see him in Northern Virginia back in 2005 or 2006, there was this Harvard, like, literature student that like, had we. We had met and he's like, I've been following him around, you know, on this whole tour. I'm obsessed with him and everything about him. It's like there is a mystique about him. It's like you. And so even when you know you're. You're going into like a song like Hurricane, which is. Is about, you know, Reuben Carter, the. The boxer, there's still so many, like, you know, is he really talking about that?
- [45:51]
A
Is it this?
- [45:52]
B
Like. Like, what a great way to open the record. And I. I mean, I remember Hurricane the first time I heard it, which was in Dazed and Confused. You know, when they're in the bar scene and they play that part and it's just. That was how I got introduced. So when the. So when the record opened up with this, immediately I was like, okay, cool. I know what's going on. I love this. Right? I love this song. And if the rest of the record is in this kind of style, like, what do you think about opening the record with Hurricane?
- [46:21]
A
What do you.
- [46:21]
B
What are your thoughts on the song?
- [46:23]
A
I'm so curious why he did that, because it seems like it should be batting forth, you know? Yes.
- [46:31]
B
Oh, yeah. Cleanup dude.
- [46:32]
A
Yeah. So they didn't know, like, he didn't know it was if it was gonna be a hit or he didn't know if it was because that's the most. That's the biggest song on that album. I think it is. Yeah. So usually you don't start with that.
- [46:46]
B
Well, you know, sometimes you kick him in the gut and I think that's what he was doing. An 8 minute and 33 second song. If you don't know the story, everybody about Reuben Carter. It's a boxer who spent 19 years in jail for a murder Bob Dylan felt that he did not commit. This is before all of that stuff had happened. So before he's getting released. It's 10 years before he gets released. Carter's case is complex and filled with legal missteps. 66 June of 66, three white people were gunned down at a bar in Patterson, New Jersey. Witnesses described two black men as the murderers. Police pulled over Carter and his friend John Artis, who were both black, but otherwise didn't fit the description of the killers. The release. Carter resumed his boxing career, losing a fight on August 6. But two months later, he and artists were charged with the murders. The case hinged on the Testimony of Arthur Bradley and Alfred Bellow, two white men with criminal records who claimed they were en route to rob a factory when they witnessed the shooting and that Carter and artists were the killers. Carter was sentenced to 30 years to life. Artists got 15 to life. Bradley and Bellow got reduced sentences for their crimes. Times in prison, Carter worked relentlessly to tell his story to earn his freedom. Many sympathized with his case, including a writer who helped him publish his autobiography, which was published in 1974. Carter had a copy sent to Dylan, who read it and took up the case, writing the song about him and raising money for him in his 1975 Rolling Thunder review tour. Soon after Carter's book was published, Bradley and Bellow changed their stories, claiming they were coerced into their testimony. In 76, Carter and artist convictions were overturned, but months later were again convicted in a second trial. So in 85, the case reached the Supreme Court, and this time, Carter and Artis were exonerated for good. Carter died on August 20, 2014, at the age of 76. I know his professional boxing career was 27, 12 and 1. So I wanted to ask you, because this is a real guy. This is, this is. This guy was alive, this guy, when he wrote this story. This isn't some mythical thing that Dylan's making up. You know, you've played Coppola in the Offer. You played Albert Grossman. What is it like playing a real life person? These aren't fictional. These aren't some mythological characters. Like, these are real people that exist. And for the most part, some of them. I mean, Coppola alive, you know, Albert Gross. Albert Grossman's still alive, I'm assuming. Or is he. Did he pass away? I don't.
- [49:10]
A
No. No.
- [49:11]
B
But what.
- [49:12]
A
I mean, in 86.
- [49:14]
B
In 86. So what. What is that pressure like, and what goes into it?
- [49:17]
A
What's that? Yeah, man. Okay, if you. Oh, well, if you haven't seen the Hurricane with Denzel Washington, that's one of the, One of the great performances. And he, he's play. He's obviously playing a real person. And he, he probably should have won the Academy Award for that. But yeah, that was my introduction to, to the story and this and the song. Yeah, Playing. Playing someone that's alive is crazy. Like playing Coppola. That's nuts. I mean, the man is. The man is here. He just did Megalopolis. Like, he's still creating and he's. I, Yeah, I, I got. What's crazy about that is he. He appreciate. Like, I got A text through somebody from him that said he. He appreciated what I did, but this. It was historically inaccurate. It wasn't exactly what happened. And he.
- [50:30]
B
He.
- [50:30]
A
So he. It's not his favorite thing because Coppola was gonna do his own story about the same subject with, um. With, like, Gyllenhaal. Jake Gyllenhaal, and Oscar Isaacs was gonna play Coppola, and so that got obviously pushed to the side because of our project for some reason. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. So. So that was. So. That's. Was an interesting connection there, but. But I was happy to hear that he thought I did a good job. I. I loved playing Coppola. Oh, my God. That was like. That was like a freaking time machine, man.
- [51:15]
B
Like, imagine if you're a fan.
- [51:17]
A
If you're a fan of the Godfather movies, and. Which I. Which I am. I. I got to. I got to step into his shoes and be on the. The Paramount lot, you know, on streets where that they actually filmed the Godfather. And that was just like. To be part of the history, like, when you play somebody that's real, that made such ripples through our zeitgeist. It's. It's. I mean, it's surreal to be connected to that. It kind of, like, secures, you know, you in the annals of time when you're connected to someone who has made such a. Such a. You know, has influenced so many. And so. And so that was amazing to. To play Albert Grossman, to be part of that mythology. I'm just like. And it's. You know, and to have the movie actually be something that people love and that. And it's getting some good feedback. That's. That's amazing, man. Like, I. I would love to just keep on playing, you know, real people for the rest of my life.
- [52:37]
B
What do you do? What? You totally can. You totally can, dude. I mean, but. But what do you do to prepare? Do you just start watching old videos?
- [52:47]
A
Thank God. Yeah, thank God. For those two characters. There was a. There's just a ton of stuff, like watch Hearts, and For Coppola just watching Hearts of Darkness, like.
- [52:59]
B
Exactly. Yeah.
- [53:00]
A
You know, and I watched that when I was 15, when I started getting into acting, so. So I've been familiar with that Coppola energy for a while, and. And I was handed this, like, you can go buy the Godfather notebook, which is this. This big, like, tome that he carried around with him, where he. He cut out all the pages that he wanted to use for the film from the novel and from his theater days.
- [53:32]
B
He.
- [53:33]
A
This Giant book where he pasted all the pages and then he had room on the margins to make notes. So I had all of his notes, all of his casting ideas, all of his, this is a book you can buy. And all of his anxieties, like, having stuff like that is priceless. Like, you know, thank God there's so much out there. And then, and also for Albert, like, there's a lot of stuff I watched, like, that, that I, that I could, you know, glean what his personality is from. But then, like, I, I try to say, okay, yeah, I'm being. There's a lot of this information, but, but I have to make this my own. So I try to find things that are familiar to the, to the character in my own life. A lot of, like, filling in the gaps. Like, well, you know, I don't know what it's like to be that caliber of director, for instance, but I know what it's like to be freaking young and hungry and wanting to prove myself. Yeah. And, but not having the full respect yet, you know?
- [54:47]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [54:49]
A
These are themes that I, I recognize and, and you can infuse it. And then I, I, I recently, I like to like, I, I, I like to have a secret. I like to like, the thing with Albert where, yeah, maybe he's. Maybe he is an agent of chaos from hell, you know, like, maybe he is. Maybe, maybe. And I do, like, animal work where, like, I'm not. I'm 57 and I'm playing guys that are taller than I am a lot of the time. Yeah. There's only so much that you could do with lips, you know, but so I, I, in my mind, I, I'll choose, like, an animal that's, like, big, you know, like, like, like Coppola, in my mind, was a black bear. He was, he was a bear, and he had, he just took up a lot of space and he kind of walked like that, you know, he kind of, like, walked straight up with his arms down. And Albert, I was like, oh, he's like a polar bear, you know, Like, I, those two just happen to be bears. I switched to the animal kingdom. But, but Albert, Albert, if you look at his hair, his hair is so ridiculous. It's like this giant, like, tsunami of hair. And I was like, wow, he looks like a polar bear that's molting or something. And so I was. And, and also, you know, that's the largest of the. And they're also, like, so cuddly on the outside, but they're freaking vicious. Like. Yeah, like, the way that Albert would fight for his clients. I was like, okay, he's, he's, he's got that animal instinct and plus a lot of clues. Like Albert carried a gun with him. He was a gangster. Like, like, I, I feel in order to make it in the music business, you had to be a bit of a gangster gangster. And I felt, I feel like if Albert didn't get into the music business, he would have been a full on gangster. So just little, little things like that, knowing that I'm holding, I, I have a gun, you know, like a, you know, a replica gun under here, whatever, but I have that weight. It may not even come out in the scene, but I have it there. And, and that, you know, that informs how you stand, how you carry yourself. There's, there's little things like that. But yeah, you know, I, I, I use the full spectrum, the metaphysical all the way to, you know, whatever shoes I'm wearing.
- [57:14]
B
Dude, I would love to like, you know, if I get to play anybody, I want to be the guy. Fred schneider from the B52s just like, you know, have that voice kind of, it's more Ethel Mermaid. That's all I can do. You know what I mean? Listen, Miles, I had a joke. It, he's like, he's doing exactly what he should be doing. It would be weird if he worked at a hospital and he was like, the tumor is benign. You know, it's a thirty dollar copay emergency. Level four. Code red, code red. He's starting to seize. Clear shock. We bring him back to life. Come on. I just, I love that's. I can't do many impersonations, but that's one that I think I got pronounced.
- [58:04]
A
But you just, you just wrote a whole new B52 song.
- [58:10]
B
Cut it, put it on Tik Tok. Let's do this. It's called Defibrillation Lover. That's what it is. Ah, Albert Grossman. Francis for Copa. Now Fred Schneider, because that's what let's talk about. Let's talk about, let's talk about Isis, the second song on the record. This was written I lost you. I love it. This was written while Dylan was separating from his then wife, Sarah. Therefore, many fans believe this is the song alludes to the couple's turbulent relationship. So Blood on the Tracks is considered the breakup album. And he and Sarah were still estranged during that record. Although they did get back together after this record for a while. They eventually got divorced a year later. Isis is the first song on the record that really deals with an, with an estranged end separation, but places it in a mythological and historical perspective. In a way, it's more of a long poem because it really has a chorus. Let's talk about mythology. You have been a part of some of the biggest franchises, let's be honest. I mean, Harry Potter is already a Star wars size phenomenon. And you've been a part of the prequels similarly to when George Lucas put out the three prequels. Obviously, when, obviously when you went into those, Harry Potter had already broken all the records and had been the biggest thing in the world. How much pressure is on not to go down in fandom history as like a Jar Jar Binks?
- [59:41]
A
Oh my God, that's so hysterical. Yeah, no, that's, that's, that's the reference I would use. And I, I love Jar Jar. I love the actor who plays Jar Jar. He's actually coming out with a documentary soon. I think about the angst that he went through playing that character. So I have love for him. But that is the reference. Like, that's the reference that people use. Like, I hope I'm not Jar Jar. I know, like, when he was on set, they were like, you're the greatest. Like, everyone's gonna love you. And then, you know, but, oh, boy.
- [60:15]
B
Yeah.
- [60:16]
A
Like, I, I felt like you feel like that when you're coming on to a train that's in motion. Like, I felt like that on the Walking Dead. I was like, oh, I hope I, I hope I'm not an, like people. Like, I hope I can and, you know, jive with all these people. And, and it's still in question whether I succeeded or not. But, but I. Yeah, and then, yeah, and then doing fantastic beast movies is, is, is the same thing you're coming on. But here, the beautiful thing about those was they, those characters were. They didn't have a novel that, that people were going to go back and.
- [61:00]
B
Say, hey, you're not saying it exactly how I imagined it. Exactly.
- [61:06]
A
So we had a love for freedom there, but yeah, there was a lot of freaking pressure. Like, you, you hope people dig you. You hope people, you hope that you, you know, you don't want to let people down. And, and yeah, it's, it's. Yeah. And the, the mythology of that, like to be part of that. Like you mentioned Star wars, like the cycle of the myth, like Joseph Campbell, like that stuff. I love that stuff like that. That's my kind of history, you know, and that's, that's, that's Star Wars. That's Harry Potter that they Follow the. The hero's journey. And to be one of the. Like to play an archetypical character on one of those journeys is, like, so fulfilling as an actor. It's. It's really cool.
- [61:58]
B
I bet. I bet. You know, I mean, talking about, you know, you talked about the Walking Dead. You know, you've. If I'm not mistaken, it's like you've been the creator and writer of graphic novels as well.
- [62:10]
A
Is.
- [62:10]
B
Is that. Is that true? Right.
- [62:12]
A
Yeah.
- [62:13]
B
So. So what is a good.
- [62:16]
A
A couple titles? Yeah, absolutely. Brooklyn Gladiator, Fish Kill, Moon Lake.
- [62:23]
B
That's awesome, dude. What's the process like when you're creating this work? But also, I imagine there's, like, when you're doing something, there's a fan base that you get to meet at conventions, signings, to relate to you in a way that isn't based in your. In your media image. Like, what is. What is that? Like, you know?
- [62:41]
A
Yeah, man. Like. Like that puppy. Like, I'm fulfilling something from my childhood. Like, that's. That's what I'm constantly doing.
- [62:48]
B
I love that, man.
- [62:49]
A
When I'm. When I'm creating comic books, it's because I love comic books. When I was a kid and. And drew and wrote, you know, ever since I was inspired by comics since the beginning, it's how I learned to read. So when I get to do. Pay homage to all that stuff that I stayed up late, past my bedtime, watching, you know what I should have been doing my homework. It's just, you know, it's. It's very fulfilling to be like, actually, no, I was doing exactly what I should have been doing. And. Yeah, act. Acting is like, if you're doing it right. It's like when you were playing outside as a kid and the floor is lava. You know, it's the same thing. Think. Yeah.
- [63:36]
B
Yes. I. I, you know, act. I always like to. To. To think about, you know, when. With acting, it's like you're. You're. You're basically, like, you said, you're playing pretend, and that's why auditions are the worst, because you're going into a room and someone's just judging your pretend, you know, and it's. It's. It's the most stressful thing by. But you know, when you can go in there and. And really, like, you know, like. Like be able to say, all right, well, if. Even if I don't get this, I get to play this character for these five minutes and just go up and have fun, and it's. It really is like that. It helped me so much in, in my process.
- [64:19]
A
Yeah, that's the, that's the, the Philip Seymour Hoffman philosophy. That's. Or I don't know where he got it from, but that's where I learned it when he was on the Acting the Actors Studio and he said, you know, the odds are you're not going to get the role, but this is an opportunity for you to perform, so go in there and just give him the best performance you possibly can. And when I got that philosophy in my head, it was so much more fulfilling to just go and do an audition and just be like, ah, man, they're going to remember me. Me. You know, that's, that's what you should be going in there thinking and if you get the job, great. That's like a byproduct. Yeah.
- [65:00]
B
What, what audition were you probably the most nervous for? Like, you know, is, I mean, I'm assuming now it's like you've, you've, you've done so much that they're either offering it to you or maybe you doing, you know, a, a chemistry test. But, but what was, what was one that you were like, you know, got it or didn't get it? Like, you know.
- [65:22]
A
I think the audition process is, it's just nerve wracking. You have, you know, it's like you have to be good at it, you have to get good at it. And I'm, it's, it's, it's so, you know, it's. You're so vulnerable in that moment where. And it's really. You, you haven't had much time with the material, but you have to look like you have, you know, you have to look like you're a master of it a lot of the time. And so the most nerve wracking thing is the, is the memorization. For me, you know, obviously. Yeah, yeah. Which is why I lean so heavily on improv, you know, like. And thank God for paraphrasing, you know, like. Yeah, and sometimes some of the best gold comes out of someone going up on their line. And so, yeah, it's, it's such a tricky thing where. And, and just controlling your nerves, man. Like just controlling. It's. You have to, you have to almost be a master of meditation in order to control your breath and your, you know, your anxiety. Walking into the place like, like you can be the most prepared person on the face of the earth. You get to that door and they call your name and then suddenly your heart's racing, you're screwed, you Know. Yeah, yeah. It's.
- [67:08]
B
Five.
- [67:08]
A
It's take like five years ago was the last time I would hear action and my heart would start racing. Like, can you imagine being on set and you're supposed to be just like, you know, totally comfortable and you hear action and so. And you're not allowed to sweat and geez. So you. You have to be like a. Almost like. Like a Buddhist, you know, Master. Yeah. Monk or something. Like just have control over your body in such a way. Yeah. There's. They don't tell you. There's a lot that goes into it. There's a lot that you have to really master. You have to really know yourself. Know thyself so, so well. And I'm still like. I'm like, I'm. I'm 48, man. I'm. I'm still figuring this out, like God. And then you look at someone like, who is like freaking, you know, not even 30 yet. And is. Is in character is Bob Dylan, you know, all day long and singing songs over. It's like, I look at him just in awe. I'm like, wow, he. He has. He has really mastered this philosophy of just being able to focus, man. Like, my God, I bet.
- [68:26]
B
But I would also not. Not to discredit anything about him, but I think, you know, know. You know, there's definitely probably pressure that he experiences still because he's like the IT guy. But it's like when you've got. Once he did that, call me by your name, and everybody's like, oh my God, we love him. You know, it's like. It's like when somebody. When. When people. When you know that as a comic, when people. When, you know, people find you funny in the room and you don't have to win them over, it's easy just to go up and be funny because you're just like, you know, everybody is. Is already with you. You when it's your audience. You know what I'm saying? It's like going into a room where nobody knows who you are, that could be a little bit more difficult. And that's. Like I said, I'm not discrediting anything about extremely talented. But it's like at a certain point, probably at like by the time he was 21, he was like, I'm the man. I know what I'm doing. Just work at the craft and get great at it and know that I can act. Because once you know, you can act, you know, it takes a lot of. You know what I mean? Like, once people have said it, you're like, in your acting coach, you can do it.
- [69:23]
A
It.
- [69:23]
B
Then it's just. It's just like, all right. Believing in yourself. And I think, you know, I think he probably can and the same thing, you know, you're. You know, we're. We're maybe built differently where it's like, yeah, you still. You, You. You know, you can do it, but there's still that voice in you that's just like, oh, God. Like, this is like. Like, I gotta nail this. Or am I doing this right? Or am I playing Albert? Right. Or am I playing Francis? Right, Right. I'm assuming.
- [69:49]
A
Yeah. I mean, well, I look at. I look at Timmy and. And he's. You see someone driven by a hunger of wanting to prove themselves. You know, I mean, he's just like. He's, you know, doing. Wearing all the hats on snl. It's just like a perfect microcosm of that. It's like, I can do everything. And so, yeah, he's got the energy and the will. Like, yes, do it, man. More power.
- [70:16]
B
Dude, you good?
- [70:17]
A
Go for. Go for as love as you can. But what was the question?
- [70:24]
B
I forget. You want to talk about Mozambique.
- [70:28]
A
Well, Isis. Like, I want to talk about Isis for a second.
- [70:31]
B
Go ahead. Because I've got so much, like.
- [70:35]
A
Because he said they say it's about his wife, but then you have the song Sarah on the album, which is. Which is about the. The XY life. And so if Isis is all. Is also about her, like, why choose that. That name Isis?
- [70:53]
B
Like, there was a stripper who I used to. Yeah, I used to. I used to DJ at a strip club. Isis was my biggest tipper.
- [71:01]
A
She was.
- [71:01]
B
She was awesome. I swear to God. I love Isis and Amara. They were my day shift girls. I love them to death.
- [71:08]
A
I'm. I'm curious why he chose it. Maybe he. Maybe he knew her, but. But I'm like, Like, Isis is. Is of.
- [71:16]
B
In mythology, it's a goddess, Ancient Egyptian mythology, who. Who is idolized as the ideal wife and protective mother. It's a female character, obviously. Yeah. So I think, like, we were talking about her.
- [71:29]
A
Her husband is. Her husband is Osiris. So was he alluding to that? I mean, was he. Was this. Was this kind of like their story? I don't know.
- [71:41]
B
Yeah, I. I think, you know, I don't have anything about that in front of me, but I think the argument is supported by the fact. So it's Sarah. Therefore, many fans believe this is on. Alludes to the competition of the relationship. This argument is Supported by the fact that it features in an album. In an album called Desire. So I think everything in this record has got the.
- [71:58]
A
Is about the desire.
- [71:59]
B
It's about the desire. And you know, during Dylan openly sings about his radiant jewel and mystical white life. The biographical approach to writing was a rare feat for Dylan, who usually preferred to write under Personas. And this is, I guess, the Persona isis. Yeah.
- [72:16]
A
Interesting.
- [72:18]
B
Yeah, dude.
- [72:19]
A
Where you want to go next?
- [72:21]
B
Let's just talk Mozambique. Let's talk Mozambique. While the title sounds good.
- [72:28]
A
No, go ahead.
- [72:30]
B
Except while the title sounds exotic and topical, as the country had just declared their independence after a ten year war with Polterge Girl, it ends up being more of a travel brochure for an exotic romantic getaway vacation and a chance for Bob and Jacques to rhyme things with the title. That's true, they do. There we go. Perfect. Because it's Bob Dylan, everybody wants to read into all of his songs. So even this breezy tune seems to be more than just an exotic location and a bunch of rhymes. What is it like when you meet serious fans who are invested in some of the projects you've been a part of that they may not be able to make the distinction between the intended fiction and reality? Like, let's face it, like Star wars, the. The Harry Potter story is almost a religious experience to some people. Hey, everybody. So you guys have probably heard me talk about how I've been in bands my whole life. I love writing songs and performing in front of crowds, just like with comedy. As a musician, it can be kind of hard to cut through the noise and really stand out as an artist. I feel like half the music projects I've been in have ended just because we couldn't figure out the answer to that eternal question of how do we get people to hear us? But then again, that was before there was Distrokid. Distrokid is a digital music distribution service that brings your sound to. To the masses. It's a one stop shop for getting your songs on itunes, Spotify, Apple Music, YouTube Music, Amazon, Deezer, Tidal, and many more. What's these? I never even heard of Deezer. How many of them are there? I know all that. That's like the holy grail of streaming services though, and getting paid. They want to. We want to get you paid for your music. That's huge because a lot of bands go broke before they get big. But Distrokid collects earnings and payments and sends 100% percent of these earnings to artists, minus banking fees and applicable taxes. And that's just one of the tons of benefits of using Distrokid. You can send big files to anyone with their instant share feature. You can use the Hyper Follow feature to promote your release and get pre saves on your song. You can even create personal landing pages for yourself, your band, your brand and whatever you like. It has a free Spotify Canvas generator too to generate your own Spotify canvas for your songs. And the Mixia feature instantly masters your tracks for higher quality audio. So if you're ready to bring your band to the next level, it's time to check out Distrokid. The Distrokid app is now available on iOS and Android. Go to the app or Play store to download it. Listeners of this show can get 30 off their first year by going to distrokid.com VIP the 500. That's distrokid.com VIP the500 for 30% off your first year. Dig it.
- [75:33]
A
Still getting around to that fix on your car? You got this on ebay. You'll find millions of parts guaranteed to fit. Doesn't matter if it's a major engine repair or your first time swapping your windshield wipers. Ebay has that part you need ready to click perfectly into place for changes big and small, loud or quiet. Find all the parts you need at prices you'll love. Guaranteed to fit every time. But you already know that eBay things people love. Eligible items Only Exclusion supply yeah, yeah, it's like there's. You go to these comic cons and there's all sorts of different styles of fans, you know. Yeah, you have like the Walking Dead fans. They're very sweet, but they're scary. Like walking, walking. They're always covered in blood and they have spiky weapons. It's like, could you, could you sign my bar wire? Freaking baseball. B. Like, yeah, yeah. And, and so it is there, there are these cults and, and, and when, and when you walk down the street and people call you by. They just keep calling you, you know, by your character name. Like they, yeah, they, they. And they, they feel like they have a piece of that, you know, I have been lucky that the fan base for all of these different things has been very sweet. Like the Harry Potter fan base. They have all of the different houses, you know, and it's like, you know, they're, they, you can see a lot of their faces. They're not covered in blood. They're like wearing like a, A Hogwarts school uniform, you know. Yeah, it's, it's sweet. It's like, yeah, I haven't had. Oh, I. Check this.
- [77:38]
B
Tell me.
- [77:39]
A
I was at. I was at a. I was at MCA MCM Comicon once. This happened to me once. And I'm online. I'm sorry. I'm. I'm signing, and I. And I see this, and I'm watching the line as people are coming to get. Get, you know, their stuff signed or whatever, and I see this guy, this. This guy, and he's. He's staring at me. He's staring at. And he's dressed like. He's dressed like Snape.
- [78:13]
B
Long hair.
- [78:15]
A
Yeah.
- [78:15]
B
Alan Rickman.
- [78:17]
A
And he's. Anyway, he's. He's just staring at me, and I'm like, man, this guy is giving me some freaky vibes. And. And one of the producers from the con walks up and says, hey, you know, we're tracking this guy online. Just be aware he thinks that you're Grindelwald the shapeshifter in disguise. And he's here to. To take you out. And I was like, what do you mean, take me out for coffee? Or like, what are you talking about? And they're just like, no, he's here to, like, assassinate you. And I go, man. And I was like, well, how so? That's like. The guy was obviously having a schizophrenic thing, you know? Yeah. Really believing it. And I said, well, okay. So I said, okay, let's wait till he gets a little closer in earshot. And I said to the. To the producer at the show, I start having this conversation so the guy can hear, so Snape could hear. And I go, oh, no, no, of course I'm not Grindelwald. I don't have. I'm not. I'm not Grindelwald posing as. As Jacob. That would be silly. I don't have my mustache. You think that Grindelwald wouldn't have a Jacob mustache? And I feel the guy listening and just being like. Just, like, analyzing it and just being like, huh. Okay, I guess he's not. And then he leaves. And. But I was very close to having a very, you know, freaky encounter with someone who, like, believed that I was the guy from the movie.
- [80:13]
B
I thought you were gonna go the other way and go. And, like, once he gets into your shop, be like, of course I have my ninja stars. And you guys all have. The snipers are. Are everywhere. Perfect. Just in case, you know, we're always prepared with our ninja stars and my.
- [80:32]
A
Army of goblins reinforcing it. Yeah. Go in the total opposite direction. Yes. Let him try.
- [80:43]
B
I'll turn him into a donkey.
- [80:46]
A
You know what I would love to talk about is Joey, the song.
- [80:50]
B
You want to jump to Joey? We can jump to Joey. I mean, is that cool? I mean, of course. So. I mean, I've got.
- [80:56]
A
We're working through. We're working through.
- [80:57]
B
So, yeah, but we'll. We'll get. But like, here, let's. Let's dive in. Let's. We'll speed it up a little bit. Let's dive. Let's do. Because we sang it already, we can't ignore one more cup of coffee. Valley Below is. The track tells a story of a gypsy girl and of the man who must leave her to enter the valley below. Some critics see the song as a metaphor for Dylan's crumbling relationship of his then wife, Sarah. But it was specific experience that inspired it. When Dylan was 34 years old, he visited France. While they were there, he attended a gypsy celebration. The experience left a strong impression on him. I'll never forget this one man played Russian roulette with five bullets in the chamber. Dylan wrote of the experience. Anyway, things went on and it was time for me to go. What do you want, Bob? As you're leaving us? I just asked for a cup of coffee for the road. They put it in a bag and they gave it to me. And I was standing there looking out in the ocean. It was like looking at the valley below where I was standing, you know, I would say. I don't want to call it a dark song, but I would say a little bit dark.
- [81:57]
A
Er.
- [82:00]
B
This duet with.
- [82:01]
A
Very cinematic.
- [82:03]
B
Very cinematic. This duet with Emmy Lou Harris is essentially about a man who must walk away from someone he loves who is not reciprocating due to their nature. What have you had to walk away from in order to grow and find your way?
- [82:20]
A
Wow. Holy.
- [82:23]
B
It's deep sometimes, dude. It's Dylan, bro.
- [82:27]
A
Wow. Anger. Like, I used to be a lot. A lot more angry. Really.
- [82:36]
B
You seem like such a. You seem like such a. And I mean this. And I'm not saying it. You just seem like you get it, like you understand comedy. You immediately came in like, I can't imagine you being angry.
- [82:47]
A
It's. That's lovely to hear. It's taken me a long, long time to get here and I still. Mostly, if I'm angry, it's. It comes out with being frustrated with myself, you know, so I'm still like, dealing with that kind of stuff. But, yeah, I used to be. I used to have a very short temper in my 20s and if I didn't get humbled in the way that my career was projected, and if I didn't have my kids, you know, if I didn't create a philosophy where I'm like, okay, I guess I'm gonna be hustling for the rest of my life. Like, if I didn't have these, if I didn't have these philosophies, I never would have been able to. To get Jacob in the Fantastic Beast movies. Like, I, I, yeah, like my journey to that point was so humbling that I be. I became Jacob walking into that room. Yeah. And that's how I got the part. It was life experience. Like, and if I didn't deal with that anger, I don't know if I would have gotten that far, man. I, I would have been. It would have been too ornery, you know, to work with. But like, I was able to kind of balance it out with, with like, like comedians are, they're very, they're. They, they also. They all have anger issues. I think. Like comedians are. It's them versus the world. Like, you rarely find. Really, really find a happy comedian. So. Yeah, man. Wow. I didn't realize that's what it was about. I just assumed that it was like, like, it just sounds like it's from a Tarantino movie or something. Like coffee. Like, well, like it, like, like, like I said, I thought it was a, A White Stripe song. Like I thought like, oh, that. That came out of the, the deranged Strange Mind of Jack White. And. And it's, it's. And. And the White Stripes to make. You know, these. They're storytellers as well. They tell these, these tales and their songs. And so I would love. Is it, is it in any movies? It's doesn't play at the end.
- [85:14]
B
Let me see if I got anything.
- [85:16]
A
About.
- [85:19]
B
Joni Mitchell recalls Dylan that he may provide a song title. She and Dylan. No, I know this. I don't think it's movies, but Tom, Tom Jones covered the song in 2021 on his album Surrounded by Time. Can you imagine? Like Tom. I mean, I haven't heard it, but I bet, you know, it's like somehow it's now all sexual and like one more cup of coffee when I go. It definitely. I love that you said that. It's like got Tarantino esque. It's. It definitely could be played, you know, in a, in an intense scene. It adds a lot of depth. Very Pulp Fictiony. I know you me keep mentioning the White Stripes. They didn't cover this, but they had covered isis.
- [86:09]
A
They cover isis Drop.
- [86:10]
B
They did cover isis. Like this. This is. I don't think. It wasn't anything, but I mean, it. It should be. Dude, you should, like, throw this out. This. Next time you're on a film, be like, you know what? Be good. Here. One more cup of coffee. Like the drink? No, the song. Book it. Yeah, dude, this. Then. Then. Oh, Sister.
- [86:32]
A
Oh, Sister. Yeah. What is that about? Is that also about Sarah? Like, are these all.
- [86:37]
B
Dude, it's. It's. I think they're. Here, let me. They're all. It's so funny.
- [86:41]
A
Funny.
- [86:42]
B
In a typical Dylan fashion, O Sister seems on the surface, but becomes more complex the longer you look at it. The gist of it is that Dylan is accusing a woman he calls his sister of being cold to him. You should not treat me like a stranger, he says, because time is an ocean, but it ends at the shore. That's a great lyric, by the way. And you she may not see tomorrow. The whole implication is that, is that life's too short to be pretty. And Dylan's reminding that he, like everybody else, can die at any time. And then the song, here's where it gets more Dylany. The song gets weirder and more biblical through. In the last verse, Dylan states that he and his mystical sister grow up together, died, were reborn, and then mysteriously saved. Yeah, dude, this is. This is, uh. Dylan performed oh Sister live in a. In a Chicago TV studio in 75. He dedicated it to the legendary music figure John Hammond, who is Dylan's first producer. Right. This closes out the first record. First side. I'm sorry. And then it goes into your song. This is the one. This is the one. Joey.
- [87:56]
A
Joey.
- [87:59]
B
This is the longest song on the record. In An Open side Too is sort of an epic book and a hurricane that Open side one. Now, the thing about Joey. Go ahead. No, please, go ahead.
- [88:11]
A
No, I'm wondering why this song was never in a Scorsese movie. I mean, it could. It could have been. I know it's about Joey Gallo, but it could have been applied to a lot of Joey's. I think.
- [88:25]
B
No, I think you're right. I mean, has he not used it? Adam, can you check to see if it's been used in anything in Joey? I don't know if it's been. And it's going to say. But yeah, if you. So obviously you know the story. Hurricane was a topical story, but whereas Hurricane was literally about Bob's belief that an innocent man deserved justice. This is a way more. This woman is way More controversial, Joey Gallo was a mafioso who had been recently gunned down in a restaurant. Although Bob had said that Jacques wrote the lyrics and he only sang them, them Bod took some for this by portraying Joey as sort of a Robin Hood character who is noble and something of like a folk hero. Lots of songs in the past sort of glorified outlaws in this way, but the actual people they were writing and singing about had been dead for years, so this one was legendary. Yeah. One, excuse me, has to imagine. Let's bring it back to you that the Godfather films from only a few years earlier probably played a big part in the mythology of the Mafia. All in all, from all accounts, Joey was not a good guy. However, even to this day, we romanticize and tried to find the good in these characters. Now, we talked about your involvement in the Offer, which is the story making of the first Godfather film. Some people might look at that specific story and era with some trepidation that it might open old wounds with some of the people who had first had an issue with the Godfather being made even decades later. Were there. Were there any concerns that there when you guys made the show, like, any blowback, so to speak?
- [90:10]
A
Well, I think that, you know, at this point, we won over every. Like, the Godfather won all the. Over, you know, all the. The mafiosas in the world. So they were rooting for us. But. But during the making of the Godfather, they. The Mafia didn't want it to happen. And they. They. Joey Colombo, who Al Ruddy, the producer got the okay from, you know, was a. He was connected to the mob, but he was a politician. And this is all in the offer. So even though a lot of the history has been smushed, it covers a lot of these topics. And so when Joey Colombo was assassinated, Joey Gallo comes in to fill that void. And he has to now. So now Al Ruddy has to now answer to. To Joey Gallo. And so crazy Joey Gallo. So there's a whole sequence and. Yeah, in the Offer where Joey is extorting Al for exorbitant amounts of money. And they. They link Joey's assassination at Umberto's Clam House with the scene. It's a great scene where Brando gets the hit put on him. They know the classic scene where Fredo fumbles with the gun. Well, so there's this great sequence in the Offer. You gotta see it, where Joey says, I want my money. You know, tonight it's my birthday. I'm gonna go to this clam house and. And celebrate. I Want you to bring the money there and then. But he gets. Well, spoilers, you know, if you. If you know the history. So I was. I was. So I'm listening to Joey and I'm like, whoa, this is crazy. The. The connection here with the Godfather. Yeah. And. And I feel like, man, I wish we used this song in the offer. It would have been perfect. I don't know. We missed an opportunity, I think. But I. I love all that mob stuff. I grew up in Brooklyn.
- [92:34]
B
Oh, yeah. The mythology. I mean, how many interest you. Did you guys know any real gangsters?
- [92:41]
A
Yeah, yeah, I. Yeah, I did. I. I took a pretty famous gangster. I shouldn't say gangster. Mafia. What do you say? Mafia hitman's. I must have been insane. I. I took a mafia hitman's daughter to the prom.
- [92:59]
B
No way. All right, so you better have a back by 11. If anything happens. I'm letting you know right now. Know I know where you. I know where your mom lives. I know you. Yeah.
- [93:11]
A
Oh, God.
- [93:12]
B
Dude.
- [93:13]
A
I used to go and hang out at his house. I. I used to. Yeah. So I was surrounded as a kid growing up Brooklyn, by. By. So I. I'm fascinated by these stories and.
- [93:27]
B
Yeah.
- [93:27]
A
Crazy Joe. So. Yeah. And I was surprised to hear him make him into this Robin Hood hero. Like. Like, I remember him being a bit of a maniac, you know, So I. I'm just. I. I'm sure. I'm. I'm curious why he chose to do this song. Put it on same album as the Hurricane. You know, it's. It's just an interesting way to go. It's. It's. But I love the connection to the Godfather.
- [93:58]
B
Oh, my God. I think here I'm seeing if I got any stuff about it. The song generated controversy, like we say, to glorified the violent activities of Gallo and took lib with the truth. Villain responded to these accusations in 2009. Interview published on his website. Jaques wrote the words jocks had a theatrical mind. And he wrote a lot of plays. So the song might have been theater of the mind. I just sang it. Some say Davy Crockett takes a lot of liberties with the truth. And Billy the Kid too. FDR in Trinidad. Have you heard of that? Yeah. I mean, details of the murder have been published by Donald Godard's book Joey A Biography. While Gallo's friends, actor Jerry Orb Doc. Oh, I didn't know that. And his wife Marta were introduced. Yeah, we're introduced to Dylan through Levy or Levy. And hearing Jerry. Jerry and Marta talk about Gallo Dylan and. And Levy wrote the entire song in one night. I love it. I love. Dude, it's 11 minutes. And I mean I by this point of the record man, I'm into it. Like I'm really feel. This is crazy for me to say that Dan, because I. You would have like. I wish I could have started with this record as the first one to get into Dylan on the podcast because I think I would have appreciated listening to this and then going back because then it goes into romance in Durango now it's like we just talked about Joey and the idea of romanticizing and revisiting the histories of sun unsavory characters. Bob Dylan wrote and perform the score for the 1973 have you ever seen this his Sam Peckinpah film Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid. So so we. I took you know I went to film school in Baltimore and I took a class on new Hollywood. So basically, you know the era after the studio system fell apart, you get the Copas, you get the Scorsese, you get the Sam Peckinpah and God damn Bob Dylan's in the movie and it's just phenomenal, man. So he so 73 Sam Peckinball film which was a revisionist western based on legendary characters in the American history as outlaw songs. They were very popular not just by Dylan but by many popular songwriters, especially musicians. So let's lighten the loot load a little bit. Do you ever end up on the wrong side of the law? Have you ever liked take. You know I've talked about some of my past crime breeze on on the podcast before but have you ever gotten in trouble with the law Brooklyn kid?
- [96:40]
A
Yeah, I mean I I definitely before pot was legal there was a lot of easy fellas run. You know like a lot. Yeah yeah running from the running from the men in blue. Yeah yeah definitely but never caught. I was a Ferris Buer Ferris Bueller in that in that regard but I let me think here the closest. Oh my God. This is a crazy story.
- [97:08]
B
Take me there, dude. Exclusive.
- [97:11]
A
So exclusive. So exclusive. I so I did this movie fanboy. I remember the out in Albuquerque and we. We didn't have. We got bored pretty easily out in the middle of nowhere next to this. It was a military airport. We were at every. Every. Every morning at 6am we would wake up to a show of force which was them just. Just jet after jet taking off. You know you'd just be like holy crap. We were. We had PTSD from that just like every. Every six at 6am Waking up from the. Yeah, the military airport. Anyway, so, like, a bunch of morons, we. We went out and we. Because we were really bored, we bought. We bought a bunch of weapons that were BB guns, high powered BB guns that looked like the. The real thing, you know?
- [98:20]
B
Wow.
- [98:23]
A
So we were morons. So we put like. We made like, Kevlar out of cardboard and we wore Darth Vader masks. And. And we. We would run around the hotel shooting each other so much to the point where we had taken over the hotel basically, with just like. BBs were just like. You'd run down the hall and you'd be like.
- [98:47]
B
Because you were up to your freaking ankles and freaking.
- [98:53]
A
Bb. And then the. So then the manager of the hotel comes out and is. Comes out like, you guys, you can't be running through the hotel like this. You have to go outside. We're like. We're like, what? We're like, what? They're like, just go in the parking lot and they're like, okay. So now we're running around outside of the freaking hotel with high power, and I'm sitting there, I'm like, sniping people, you know, from my position. And I look over my shoulder and I see a, you know, a cop car just, like, just slowly easing up behind me. I go, oh. I drop my machine gun, BB gun. And I start, like, trying to find my other friends and be like, guys, guys, we're surrounded by freaking cops. And so these three other guys, two other guys come running out and they're all, like, filled to the brim with bbs. And I'm like, dude, we have to get the hell out of here. The cops are probably, you know, going to arrest us right now. Everyone else has run inside the hotel, so we're the last three schmucks who are walking around. So one of us says, okay, we got to gather all the stuff. We can't leave all the stuff out here. We're like, oh, yeah, of course, horse. So, like, morons. We are now three idiots with bags of what looks like ammunition and just handfuls of guns walking into the freaking hotel. I see out of the corner of my eye, three cop cars pull up over here. Three cop cars pull up over here. And they were already out with their guns drawn. And I knew just in my head, if I don't. If I don't drop whatever I have in my hand right now, I'm done. And next thing I know was the fastest I'd ever been on the curb. My hands were behind my back. They were looking at my passport. And then the manager came out of the hotel and vouchs for us, and they were like, oh, my God. Like, they were like, you guys are so lucky that you did exactly what we wanted. You. Wow. Because if you, if you flinch for a second, you guys look like freaking bank robbers to us, you know?
- [100:58]
B
Oh, my gosh.
- [100:58]
A
Yeah. The stupidest, stupidest thing I've ever done. So don't, don't do that at home, kids.
- [101:04]
B
Yeah. If you take anything from this podcast, do not. Oh, man, that's crazy. What a great story.
- [101:12]
A
But what about the fact that, like, there's, what about. So we were talking about Billy the Kid and, and Pat Garrett, right? And so I remember, I remember in an interview where Dylan and Dylan's name in that movie is Elias.
- [101:30]
B
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [101:32]
A
Or Alias. Yeah, Might as well be. Might as well be Alias. And I remember him. I may be crazy, but I remember him saying in an interview once that he felt that he was maybe reincarnated Billy the Kid. Did you ever hear that?
- [101:47]
B
No, I never did.
- [101:49]
A
I, I, maybe I'm making this up, but I, I feel like he, he had such a. Dylan himself, had such a connection to that time period, and I, I, I don't know whether it's just part of the, the legend that he was creating for himself or the mythology he was creating for himself, but I feel like he kind of, if you look at pictures of Billy the Kid, he kind of has a Dylan thing going on. It's, it's very strange. And I don't know, I just, I like to lead into that mythology as well, that he's, he's also. So, you know, and I, and I think, like, one more cup of coffee. Like these, these songs, Durango Romance, like, like, they have these cinematic, you know, he, like, he has that country thing in him, and he does. Yeah. And I'm, I don't know. I, I, I just, I think it just adds to his, his legend totally. He's all that. He's also maybe possibly the reincarnated Billy the Kid. Who knows?
- [102:58]
B
You don't know. And that's why I think we, we're sitting here talking about. That's why he has all these records on here. It's Nothing's cut and dry with him. There is, there is like, like I said, like a mystery. I mean, you know, every song, Every song has pages and pages of notes that I could sit here and talk about because so many people have dedicated. Did, you know? I mean, I'm gonna say the lives, like, dude, you know, you actually did the scene with them. One of the guys that was on the podcast before who I was gonna see if he wanted to join us. You know James from Saturday Night Live?
- [103:34]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah, he was, yeah, he introduces, he's talking about in, in the movie.
- [103:39]
B
In the movie, yeah. Have you.
- [103:43]
A
I wish his heart was bigger. Yeah, but he was fun. It was fun to hang out with him. Him. Did you talk Dylan with him? Yeah, he had, he has many different Dylan impressions.
- [103:53]
B
Like, I know.
- [103:54]
A
And I wonder if that's how they, he got the attention of the casting people. Yeah, he's hysterical. Yeah, I wish they let him do more in the movie. He's just like, oh, there people were SNL fans be like, oh, there he is. And then he's like, just, you know, comes and goes. But yeah, man, that was fun. There's a lot of great cameos, a lot of, lot of. Some great ensemble. Yeah, he's cool. I, I, yeah. What, what, what did you guys talk about?
- [104:27]
B
He's, he's a huge Dylan fan. So he was like, when I dug this record, he was the first person I texted to be like, dude, I actually, this is the first one that I got. I got it like, I got it immediately. And like, you know, Black Diamond Boy, like, or that Black Diamond Bay. I mean it's, it's like I said, it's. Everything has a thing. So this is about, about the destruction of a tiny island by a volcano in real time and what the inhabitants are going through. But it's also, but it also has a removed indifference because the story's narrator is watching the catastrophic story unfold on the news and then walks away to get a beer. You know, which is, I mean, it's crazy. Like, you know, go ahead.
- [105:11]
A
No, I was just a great being.
- [105:13]
B
Yeah, totally, it's. And you know, I, I have like, you know, a deeper question about it. But you know, it's, this basically describes like, you know, essentially what people on the island are doing at the time, often drawing attention to the ironic fuel tea of their actions. For example, one of the islanders is preparing to commit suicide when the volcano erupts and destroys the island. The song also describes the news watchers indifference up to the catastrophes he hears on Walter Cronkite's TV broadcast. As a narrator gets to another beer rather than watch the news story about the catastrophe on the island, he says, I never did plan to go anyway to Black Diamond Bay. How do you stay? How do you, how do you stay, you know, separate? Your point of view and concerns and your creativity in your, in your, your professional life with the stuff that's going on in the world. I don't want to get too heady or political, but it's like you, you're, like I said, you seem like an upbeat guy. It's like, how, how do you, how do you, without being an artist, how do you not get overwhelmed by what's happening?
- [106:24]
A
I, I'm, Yeah, the, like, sipping coffee while, while the world is ending, you know?
- [106:32]
B
Exactly.
- [106:32]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jesus. And I wonder, because there's a, just to bring it back to a complete unknown for a second. There's a, There's a great moment in the movie where the Cuban Missile Crisis is happening where everyone's like, holy, it's the end of the world. And everyone in New Yorker, like, they're packing up their bags and, and, you know, they can't get taxis and everyone's flipping out and, and, and Joan Baez grabs her guitar. For some reason, it is now running through the streets. Like, you know, what is she gonna do? And then she hears Bob playing at the Gaslight, which was Albert's club, and, and she goes, and she sees him playing for all these people who found refuge there while everyone outside is like, oh, my God. Of end of the world. And they're there, you know, having coffee, like.
- [107:35]
B
Yeah.
- [107:36]
A
And so I, I, that's, It just encapsulates that, that idea. Like, it's like that moment in the, in the Pianist where he's trying to get a date with the girl and the wall behind him blows up, you know, and he's still trying to. What was your number?
- [107:53]
B
You know.
- [107:56]
A
Like, we, we're living in this world. And, and that moment with the Cuban Missile Crisis is a reflection of the, the echo of the world we're living in, in now, you know, where we're, whatever, one second to midnight. And so how do you get along? Right. That's what you're asking. How do you.
- [108:13]
B
Yeah. How do you do it?
- [108:15]
A
You get a puppy, you know, you freaking simplify. You know, you, you do, you do transcendental meditation. Yep. You kiss your kids, you know, you tuck them in at night. And, and, and you, you just, like, appreciate the, the little things. Because if you, if you focus on what they're. What the, the media.
- [108:43]
B
Yeah.
- [108:44]
A
Trying to, you know, beat you over the head with, you're gonna go crazy. Yeah.
- [108:48]
B
Yeah.
- [108:49]
A
And it's better. I, I, you know, I'm lean toward the kind of, the metaphysical, like, as I keep saying. So, like, the maharishi effect. Like, if we. If we're all focused on the end of the world, then that may well happen. But if we're focused on preventing it.
- [109:16]
B
Yeah. Love and. And, you know, empathy. Yeah.
- [109:20]
A
So maybe while we're sipping our coffee, we can. We can ponder.
- [109:27]
B
You should look out over there. That's gonna. That's gonna blow up. Yeah, Just at least go over there. Yeah, it's like.
- [109:31]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [109:33]
B
Help a little bit.
- [109:34]
A
Like, you live through. They live through. They live through some. Some dark stuff. And that's in the music there. That's. I think that. I think that. I'm just curious why he chose to write about that. You know, why. Why focus on that? What? Joseph.
- [109:56]
B
Joseph Conrad's novel Victory was a major influence on the song, which references many of the themes. The song title, the island, the volcano, the gambling, and the Panama hat are all references to that book. Yeah. I mean, he doesn't really go in more than that, but I mean, you know, 7 minutes and 30 seconds. It's.
- [110:15]
A
It's.
- [110:15]
B
It's a heavy song, but, I mean, it's. It's beautiful. It's like. It really is like, you know, it's a great song. It goes with. With the. With the flow of the record. And then. And then lastly, we have Sarah. It closes the album out. We've talked about mythology, and we've also talked about the demystification of Bob Dylan. While Sad Eyed lady of the Lowlands was a tribute song about Sarah from the blonde on blonde 10 years earlier that contained some cryptic elements and romance at the beginning of their love. This picks up 10 years later during the turbulent part of the relationship which eventually ends in their divorce a year later. It seems very frank and biographical without the facade of poetry, while it is still a tribute to the love he has and shares with her. In a way, it seems to be an attempt to convince himself, her and the world that loves that. That of love while it's disintegrating. Yeah. This in. Yeah, that's what it is. Perfect. All right. One notable line talks about him writing Sad Eyed lady of the Lowlands for Sarah at New York's famous and infamous Chelsea Hotel.
- [111:27]
A
Are you.
- [111:28]
B
Are you the kind of person who spends a lot of time in your past? Do you. Do you, like, dwell on the regrets or missteps or. Or questionable choices you made? Or do you let them go and stay present? You had mentioned transcendental meditation. I'm. I'm assuming you do that.
- [111:43]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah. That's a good way. That's a good Way to release that stuff. Yeah. Definitely have all sorts of things. Regrets, you know, you know, different wishing I had gone down different paths and different situations percolating beneath the surface is. But you do. And, you know, wondering about was that the right choice or whatever. But then transcendental meditation allows you to get into a state of mind where these, these things start to release like bubbles, you know, out of the, out of the, the dark waters of your subconscious. And you're in such a state that you could just observe it and watch it and let it go. Yeah. And just that act. You start. Do you do that enough? And you start to feel lighter. You know, it's like it's your own personal healing therapy that you can do. I, man, it's. It's definitely helped me in a lot of situations. Yeah. Sarah, that, you know. Yeah. That. Is that with Emmy Lou as well. Who, Emma Lou?
- [113:05]
B
Yes. Let me just double check that.
- [113:08]
A
There's something about.
- [113:09]
B
I don't have it. It doesn't say if she's singing. They see if it's on the. Yeah. What do you have? What are you about to say?
- [113:16]
A
There's. He, I think there's like an alchemy, like, like, he knows. Dylan knows that he doesn't have the best voice in the world, but he can hit a note, and if he combines it in harmony with an angelic tone that he can, he can create. He can create a sound that is penetrating, man. Like.
- [113:49]
B
Yeah.
- [113:51]
A
And it's, it's, it's like being a, you know, it's like a master alchemist or something that Sarah. It's such a simple thing, but it, man, it's like it bores into your freaking mind. Yeah. And I just, I, I appreciate, like, like, I, I marinated in this album for the, really, for the first time because of this podcast, and I really appreciate being introduced to a lot. I love that.
- [114:24]
B
I love that, dude. Yeah. That's what's so great about it is, like, why we keep doing it is because, you know, the, like, I, I, I would have listened to this and been like, oh, this is, you know, it's a good album, but it's like, the more you learn about it, the more you, like, find out the meanings about it. I mean, dude, little known fact, it was. It was Emmy Lou Harris that sang backup this. I don't know if obviously, because I just found this out as well. Let's talk about pressure. While recording this song, Sarah actually came to the studio and sat there listening in stunned silence. Yeah.
- [114:59]
A
Oh, my God.
- [115:00]
B
Isn't that crazy?
- [115:02]
A
I wonder if. Wow. I wonder if Dylan just, like, he was, that he was the kind of person. I think that would just. Yeah, we don't need to have a conversation. Let me just play this song for her. He's such a mischievous imp of a person like that. Like, I'm not surprised that that's how she was introduced to the song about her. Oh, by the way, many of the songs in this album are dead.
- [115:34]
B
Oh, yeah. I want to talk about, I want to talk about critiques in your career. What sing, single person's reaction or review were you most concerned with? Not necessarily a critic, but have you ever waited breathlessly for someone to let you know what they thought of something you were a part of?
- [115:52]
A
Oh, yeah. I really, really wanted to know what Jim Mangold thought of my, my performance. Really a complete, like, yeah, I needed that, I needed that validation. Like, I, I was, I was like, am I, how am I doing? You know, swimming with the big fish? Like, how, how, how am I doing here? And, yeah, and so, yeah, I spent, I spent all the way up until the last second of filming. I was like. So he, he finally, like, gave me, gave me the smallest thing, the smallest piece of, of information. And he was just like, yeah, it's, it's, it's good to have someone that you can trust is gonna, you know, bring it and, you know, you, you don't, you don't have to worry about them. And I was just like, yeah. Wow, thanks, man.
- [116:53]
B
I love that. What's, what's the best, like, what's the best advice you got from a director? What's the best note? Is there anything from all the directors you've worked with? Is there something that sticks out with you?
- [117:08]
A
Ah, well, I guess I had a, I had a, an acting teacher right out of college, Eric Loeb. Pretty early on, I was like, taking acting classes and I was just trying to, you know, find my way. Like, I hadn't have any representation. I was doing stand up comedy. I was like, where, where am I going here? And I would go to his class and I would stick out, you know, and he would, and he would say to me, like. And I would like, hang out with him afterward and we'd, you know, hang out and chill. And he would say, like, like, you're gonna work forever. Like, he just knew it. He's like, you're gonna, you're gonna, you're gonna, you're gonna work. And I was like, really? He's like, yeah, yeah, as long as you believe that the senior in is really happening. If you believe that, you know, that what you're saying is actually what's happening in reality, you're gonna go a long way. And I'm still working toward that.
- [118:25]
B
Wow.
- [118:26]
A
That was. That was definitely something that. Because that's what it is. Like, if you can get. If you're so immersed in the play, in the. In, you know, the imagination of it, that you. That you forget that it's. That it's fantasy. Yeah, that's. That's. That's. That's what it's all about, I think. But that's crazy. That's like. That's literally crazy. Dipping into that, being able to. To come out of that, you know, it takes. It takes an interesting mind.
- [119:01]
B
Oh, my God. Especially some of the work that you've done. I mean, you've done, like, you know, where it's like, oh, yeah, this can, you know, I. You know, complete unknown or the offer. It's like. Those are like. Like, you know, real situations in real time that actually happen. But then, you know, like, you're doing, you know, the Walking Dead or Fantastic Beasts, and you have to, like, you know, believe all this. You know, it's. That's where I think the meditation probably comes in handy, like, to. To, like, level you in.
- [119:33]
A
Yeah, the meditation comes in handy when you're on set and maybe you have a little bit of nerves or something, and you can meditate and rise. That's the transcendental. You know, you rise above the chaos of the rushing river as opposed to getting swept up into it. And the next thing you know, you just, you know, totally. You can't focus. But it really helps you focus, man. And it really helps you with, like, breathing is so much of it. Like. Like, if you're able to control your breathing, that's. I feel like 50 of acting. If. If you can just be calm, then you're free.
- [120:21]
B
Yeah, completely. Sarah's the last song closes out the record. You know, all in all, like, this is. Like I said, this is probably. Probably. This is probably so far, my favorite Bob Dylan record. Now, I'm saying that as a guy, I haven't listened to Bob Blonde on Blonde all the way through. I haven't listened to Blood on the tracks or Highway 61 revisited. But I mean, this is. This is. This is a good one. Adam, is there anything that we missed that we need to mention? I mean, I've got some filler facts, you know. Let me see if we've got. What records have we done? I saw you this is his six. And out of 11 times, we're going to talk about Bob Dylan on the podcast. Eight appearance Appearances. We've got Time out of Mind, Love and Theft, John Wesley Harding, the Basement Tapes, Modern Times, Desire. We still have the Free Will and Bob Dylan. We still have Bring It All Back Home, Blood on the Tracks, Blonde on blonde, and Highway 61 revisited. He has got.
- [121:24]
A
Got.
- [121:25]
B
He's got two records in the top 10 and he has got 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. He's got five records in the bottom 100.
- [121:36]
A
You should watch the movie. Go. Go watch a complete unknown and then do Highway 61 Revisited.
- [121:42]
B
Well, that we're going to be doing Highway 61 Revisited in is four. We're not going to be doing that episode until 2028. We got some time, but. Yeah, we got some time. We're going to North Order, but I'm gonna go see the movie night. I don't have any shows tonight. I'm really excited to see this, especially after talking to you, dude. And you're just. This has been great, so please come back. Usually it won't be this long, but it's like we got. We had so much. We were talking about Bob Dylan. There's just so much. And dude, the fans, like, they get. If we miss one thing or we something up, like, they let it be known.
- [122:17]
A
So.
- [122:18]
B
So this was great. I ask everybody these questions. What's your favorite song on this record, bud?
- [122:25]
A
It's my man. It's been. It's been my pleasure. And it's an. It's an honor to be part of the podcast that. Where you're. You're digging desire, man. I'm so happy that we finally won you over with the Dylan.
- [122:39]
B
I know, I know. It's crazy. I still got. And I've got the good thick of it to do, so. All right, so I asked everybody these questions. What's your favorite song on this record?
- [122:49]
A
O. This is the story of the Hurricane.
- [122:58]
B
I love that.
- [122:59]
A
I love that. I love this song because you can. I mean, it's a powerful song. You really rock out to it. But I'm gonna say. Ooh, ooh, ooh. I'm gonna say I really was in isis. That was. It was my first introduction to isis. Really enjoyed isis. But I'm gonna say Joey because. Me too.
- [123:24]
B
Yeah, I love Joey. Yeah, I really do. I really love it. Yeah.
- [123:28]
A
The connection to the Godfather. Love it.
- [123:32]
B
Love that. Is there anything on this record that you skip over? Like, is there.
- [123:38]
A
Mozambique is a little too for me, you know? But everything else is pretty fun and. Yeah. And I love how like, like, oh, man, that's a. That's. That's like one more cup of Coffee is connected to the White Stripes, who I love. And, and, and some of the songs like, like, like reminded me of Rack and Tours as well.
- [124:08]
B
Sure.
- [124:08]
A
And, and just. I just realized like, so many, like Tom Petty and like so many of my favorite, you know, bands that I love are. I couldn't have even existed without Dylan. So I, I just love coming back to the Source. It's. Coming to the Source is just delightful. It's like the family fountain of youth here.
- [124:28]
B
Yeah, totally. This. Can you. To this record. Is this a song you can put on when you're making love?
- [124:39]
A
Oh, oh, oh. Huh. Only if you have, if you have a tambourine. If you're holding a tambourine, anything could happen.
- [124:51]
B
This is too Dylan. Regardless of the music. It could be like, like, you know, setting the mood or even have that kind of like sexual ambiance in the melody. It's just with a Dylan record, there's too many lyrical things going on that you can't not like, pay attention to. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't know if you can.
- [125:13]
A
To this.
- [125:13]
B
What would be, what would be your elevator pitch to get someone to listen to this record? Like, what would you. How do you sum this record up?
- [125:23]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah. Do you like songs that are historically accurate, like, but, but also like rock and roll and a little bit of a samba beat? Yeah, dude. Out of nowhere, if you like, if you like historically accurate music, music that you can rock to, then this is the album for. This is the album for you. Yeah. Each song is a, A gold mine for some kind of relationship issue that he was having with his wife. That kind of thing. Yeah. And if you like discovering that a lot of your favorite music came straight from Dylan himself, yourself, this is the album for you.
- [126:18]
B
I, I think if you're, if you're on the fence and about Bob Dylan and. Or you just. You need a starting off point. I don't know if this is the, the perfect place to start off, but God damn, this is one that I think right off the jump you're going to be able to dig. Dude, I, I can't thank you enough. Thank you for, for, for sticking around too, man. I know it went a little bit long. We were supposed to. But I was having so much fun and I hope you had fun because this, this really was. This really was great. Please promote away anything you want to Promote anything you have coming up. We'll do it at the beginning, in the end, too, but anything we should be looking forward to?
- [126:53]
A
Yeah, man. Oh, I'm. I got. I got this movie that's doing really well in the UK called Dave 2. I'm in that. That's out now. I'm working on a show called the. The Rainmaker, which is, like, about the. Based on the Grisham novels. And I got to play a fun part with that. That's. We're working on that now. And, yeah, there's a bunch of stuff percolating I can't really talk about, but it's. It's getting exciting over here.
- [127:21]
B
Dude, that's awesome, man. You're. You're so talented and. And I love watching you work, so I'm excited to see what you're going to do and. And please come back on the podcast. We. We got so many more records. We'll send you the list and stay in touch. And dude, when I come out to England in. In August, please come. If you're. If you're in town and free, come to a show. Come. Come on stage, sing a song with me. Like, let's party. Dude, you're. You're awesome.
- [127:45]
A
Absolutely, man. That sounds great. My pleasure. I'd love to do that.
- [127:49]
B
Sweet. Thank you again, brother.
- [127:51]
A
Thanks for having me, man. Anytime.
- [127:54]
B
What did I tell you? What did I tell you? The one and only Dan Fogler. Follow him on all social media at Fogler's Fiction on TikTok at Dan Hyphen Fogler. And go to foglers fiction.com for all stuff. Dan. Go to the website for more information about those graphic novels that we talked about and his podcast for people who smoke pot and love movies. Join the Smoke Circle with Dan as he gets high with celebrity guests and discusses the latest movies he's seen in 4D. Hella spoilers. Just a little note. Yeah. And check out a complete unknown. It's out in the theaters right now. I went to go see it last night. It's amazing. All right. We just listened to Desire by Bob Dylan from 1976. For new music this week, brought to you in part by Distro Kid, is Odds of the Blues by Joe Ellie, featuring Bruce Springsteen. You can find links to the music on our website, the500podcast.com and if you were in a band and were directly influenced by one of these albums or artists and you want your music featured on the 500 website, send your song to 500podcast gmail.com. make sure you put the album and artist that influenced you in the subject line. Next week it's number 173 with Todd Rundgren's Did I say that right? Todd Rundgren's something, slash, anything. It's a longy. It's a strongy, though, so dig into it. And if you haven't listened, do your homework. See you soon.
- [129:15]
A
Soon.
- [129:15]
B
On the take you're just asking to lose that's the br that.
- [129:30]
A
Of the lady Love.
- [129:38]
B
Is for horses and I she has no heart she's cold as.
- [129:54]
A
I.
- [130:00]
B
If you favor the chances you're just asking to lose that's the praise that's the odds of the praise that's.
- [130:24]
A
The praise that's the arms lay in.
- [130:30]
B
Love she never lost that's the brace that's the art of the blood.
- [131:11]
A
It's.
- [131:12]
B
A fever, it's a me Won't you this looks a cold rain on windowsill.
- [131:35]
A
Call it heads, call it tails it's.
- [131:42]
B
Your style to choose that is the brave that's the BR that's the.
- [132:05]
A
Of the blues the 500. Keeping it please see for the fleece nation on the 500. The 500.
- [133:39]
B
This is Chris Da Makes, guitarist and vocalist for Less Than Jake and host of Krista Makes a Podcast, a songwriting podcast where every week I'm joined by an amazing guest to break down the writing, recording and release of one iconic song from their career. In our giant evergreen back catalog of episodes, we've had rock legends such as Dee Snider and Huey Lewis, punk rock favorites like Mark Hoppus, Fat Mike and Brett Gurewitz, and up and coming artists of today such as Liz Stokes of the Beths and Genesis Owusu. We've had guests from all genres and styles of music, and I guarantee that if you peruse our back catalog, you'll see several episodes that'll make you say, man, I got gotta hear that. Whether you're a fan of music or a creator of music yourself, you'll take away a whole new appreciation for the songs you know and love. Krista Makes a Podcast is available for free on all the places you could possibly listen to podcasts, and new episodes come out every Monday. Hey everyone, this is Tuck from Fit for a King, an off road minivan. Every week I bring you fun interviews alongside your favorite metal core entertainers with my new podcast, Get Tucked. Join me every Monday with bands like Counterparts, Crystal Lake, Like Mods to Flames, and many more. We play unsigned and undiscovered bands, deep dive into each artist's history and of course provide the greatest breakdowns in current metal core. Tune in to get tucked every Monday out now through Sound Talent Media, Next Chapter Podcasts.